Spoilers and Speculation

[jsbt]

Any storyline that is remotely introspective is derided as surplus to requirements for TWD and has been for years. It's why I tend to shrug off the show now being review-proof.

Edited April 5, 2016 by jsbt

[bmoore4026]

Macbeth, on 05 Apr 2016 - 12:18 AM, said:

Popsugar website has a theory that given that the first and last shots were povs  - you need to figure out whose pov it is.  The pov shots in the show look to be coming from inside a van - and Popsugar speculates that the pov shot appears to be from Michonne.

 

I always took the first POV shots (you mean with the light crosses and all that) are seen by the first person we see then that truck door opens:

Daryl.

[slade3]

My favorite shows always break my heart, especially when there's a love story I'm rooting for. That's why I was convinced for a long time Michonne would be the Lucille victim. But I posted here a few days ago that killing Michonne would make Michonne's entire TWD journey all about increasing Rick's pain and I can't imagine that's what the writers want. But that is from a storytelling perspective and I'm no longer sure what the show's priority is.

 

I think the larger issue with killing Michonne with a baseball bat is what Peter Martell mentions: I know the show is often tone deaf, but I'm not sure they would beat a black woman to death. I tend to assume there is some awareness of the ugliness of some of these tropes, as they chose to skip the rape storyline even though some fans insisted it was necessary for viewers to relate to Michonne.

 

I don't know if TWD has any Black writers or crew, but someone must know the significance of baseball bats to Black people, unless they are only significant in NYC? (In the 80s, baseball bats were often used to threaten or beat Black people who ventured into Italian neighborhoods. I was on a subway with a man who had a baseball bat underneath his coat. I saw it when he reached up to hold a pole and I can't express how scared I was. I changed seats.) Even if I didn't love Michonne, I would walk away from this show without turning back if they beat her with a bat. (I think it's a horrific visual anyway, and wish the show runners had decided to leave it out completely.) I would even consider writing an op-ed since I no longer have patience for stupid crap like that from adults in the business.

 

I also think it would be a mistake to kill a gay man (Aaron) with a bat. And a Korean man with a bat. I remember being surprised when I read

Michonne was raped by a White man and Glenn was killed with a bat

in the comics. But from what I read here, Kirkman would do that. I don't know if the show would. And after the backlash over the finale, I have to believe they would tread very carefully now. 

 

Unfortunately, I do think the van POV means something, but I couldn't make out any of the words being said during those brief moments. Someone mentioned Daryl is hunched up in the van, so the POV wouldn't be his. Michonne is sitting next to him, so I have read the POV is probably hers. At the same time, the van POV is blurry and seems to wobble a little. We know both Daryl and Glenn are in bad shape when they are dragged out.

 

But, again, from a storytelling perspective, would you build up a relationship the way the show has done with Rick and Michonne only to kill one of them off after 4 years? If Michonne is really taking Andrea's storyline from the comics, that would mean Rick and Michonne

could get married at some point

. It would mean Michonne is not only his lover, but his partner and his confidante and the person who keeps him grounded. And, yes, Danai has a lot going on right now (I saw one of her plays last month and loved it), I believe she's able to get all this done because she's on TWD. Her Broadway play was written over 7 years ago. I doubt she'd willingly leave a steady acting job, one where she plays the love interest to the male lead on the highest rated show on cable, to devote her time to writing plays. 

 

ETA: Someone made a great point on the board yesterday: Michonne says nothing in the finale. She has no lines. Would this show really kill off a character like Michonne without giving her a significant speech, or even one line of dialogue? If she had told Rick or Carl "I love you", I'd be more inclined to say, "Yeah, she's a goner."

 

I wonder if the reason they went the cliffhanger route is because they knew the audience was expecting a big death, they didn't want to kill one of their big characters, and knew the audience would be disappointed with an Abraham or Eugene death. I mean it will be brutal and horrible and everything, but for people expecting a Glenn or Daryl death, the reaction would be pretty meh.

I'm assuming it's Abraham or Eugene. Everything about their interactions this season felt like tying up loose ends.

 

 

 

While I think there's a decent chance this is true, I have to say I think Sasha is

going to get Holly's death from the comics. Again, this is from reading the comics wiki, but Holly is the woman Abraham leaves Rosita for after meeting her in Alexandria. She's taken by Negan, but the group gets her back. She's returned with a bag over her head and when the bag comes off, it's revealed she is a walker. She bites Denise. So because Denise got Abe's original death, I've wondered if they decided it would be more powerful for Sasha to get Holly's death. It would have a huge impact on Abraham and the others next season.

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by slade3

[Pete Martell]

Do you mean she'd bite Abraham and he'd get Denise's death? That would certainly be cruel but clever writing...

[SevenStars]

I'm not happy with the ending, but that seems sorta like they're being crybabies about it.

The ending might have been the final straw for them. I know some people who who didn't enjoy the season but was hoping that the final episode would kind of keep them watching next season.

[loki567]

I'm a big fan of Sepinwall so I'll point out he was heading that way all season and said he'd stop reviewing the series unless the finale pleasantly surprised him. His reaction to the cliffhanger was basically, "lol." 

[slade3]

Do you mean she'd bite Abraham and he'd get Denise's death? That would certainly be cruel but clever writing...

No, just that Sasha would be captured, killed and allowed to turn, and then returned to Rick as a walker. I think it would be a shocking moment if she did bite Abraham, but I'm not sure they'd go there. That would be so cruel. I know people have wondered why they gave Denise Abraham's comic death, but yesterday someone said they felt they needed to kill Denise in order to need to transport Maggie to Hilltop, so maybe there was nothing more to the switch than that?

[Morrigan2575]

I'm massively cynical right now and totally not her for this manipulative bullshit that Kirkman and Gimble have done twice now this season.  This show isn't that good (hasn't really been in a while) so I'll go back to what I did post Hershel's death only watch an episode if it focused on characters i cared about (which is now even less than S4/5).

 

Back on topic, I think the death will be less about creative reasons and more about contract negotiations and fandom feedback/blowback from the Cliffhanger.

[SevenStars]

Since I saw some people were discussing how far along the writers are with S7 scripts. Here is a little info on that:

From an interview with Gale Hurd in deadline.

DEADLINE: How far along are you guys on it?

HURD-There is a writers’ room but no finished scripts yet.

http://deadline.com/2016/04/the-walking-dead-spoilers-season-6-finale-negan-gale-anne-hurd-fear-the-walking-dead-hunters-1201731532/

Edited April 5, 2016 by SevenStars

[JackONeill]

Man, I hate using this term but the show has had "effective and memorable deaths." I think we'd all list Herschel's death in that group, probably at the top. I think Lori's death, even though many disliked her character, was heart-ripping, and Rick's reaction was warranted. Shane's death, though expected, was memorable. (Maybe T-dog, but he was so undeveloped, IMO.)(Each viewer may have a slightly different list.)

But somewhere in Season 3, TPTB dropped the ball of showing true charcater development . . . or it was all over the map. Think Tyrese. And poor Andrea's death could have been more, but by then they'd ruined the character (as most people think).

Beth. Her own sister didn't even wonder where she was.

Noah, Spenser's brother, Deanna, Jessie - they were set pieces at best. Just a way to further the story, or to give an actor a chance to emote (think Noah's death).

Somewhere I read TPTB saw that they had to eliminate Denise to get the Negan story underway. Well, that sucks if you liked Denise. So, I essence, she had no real reason to live OR die. It's callous and manipulative.

So, here we are: someone has died. Inescapable. (I say that because I didn't see any dumpsters for our characters to roll under.)

But, for me with the exception of Rick, Carl and Michone, I don't really care (much) and it's because the writers have dropped the ball on characterization.

I'm sorry, it takes more than a couple of random lines at the last minute between Abe and Eugene to flesh out the characters. But that seems to be the extent of charcater development for these writers.

Edited April 5, 2016 by JackONeill

[peach]

Man, I hate using this term but the show has had "effective and memorable deaths." I think we'd all list Herschel's death in that group, probably at the top. I think Lori's death, even though many disliked her character, was heart-ripping, and Rick's reaction was warranted. Shane's death, though expected, was memorable. (Maybe T-dog, but he was so undeveloped, IMO.)(Each viewer may have a slightly different list.)

But somewhere in Season 3, TPTB dropped the ball of showing true charcater development . . . or it was all over the map. Think Tyrese. And poor Andrea's death could have been more, but by then they'd ruined the character (as most people think).

Beth. Her own sister didn't even wonder where she was.

 

What makes most of the deaths memorable are what it does to the others.  Shane's death was epic, but that was mostly due to Rick.  "YOU did this!!"  That whole scene was crayzee.  And it was Carl and Maggie coming out of the prison with the baby, without saying anything...and Rick realizing.  Ugh, I almost couldn't watch anymore it was so upsetting.  And Merle!  Daryl finding Merle.  I will never forget that.

I was so angry when and how they killed off Andrea, but still, she got to say something, and make her peace with Michonne, and basically bless the union of Michonne with the group (which is kind of awesome in light of Richonne this season), and the others solemnly waiting for the gunshot.  She even got to make a callback to the safety on the gun.

Tyrese got a whole frigging episode devoted to his death, complete with flashbacks of OTHER dead characters.  They had a whole car full of dead characters.

 

Beth's death, while...I don't know what to call it, even...still resulted in a dramatic scene of Daryl carrying her out of the hospital, and Maggie and everyone reacting.  They even got slo-mo. 

 

So now a sooper major character bites the dust and we get robbed of what happened to everyone else.  I mean, I guess Gimple has indicated that we get that later, but he's also said things that indicate otherwise.  And I'm supposed to wait and wonder for six months.  It's unsatisfying in the extreme. 

 

And, this is just my theory, it's more uncomfortable during a year when our national politics are so weird and up in the air.   One of the nice things about fiction is it allows closure in ways you can't often have it in real life.  Resolution. 

[JackONeill]

peach, I agree with you more than I disagree with you.

My main point is that the deaths in the last few years have felt less significant than the deaths in the first few seasons. IN my opinion, it's because those characters weren't "drawn" well. IMO, they were just sketches. (Noah. Jessie.)

If the writers in this particular situation cop out and kill someone like Rosita or Aaron or Eugene or Abraham, I'll just go "Eh."

But I think - we probably all think - that it's going to be a much bigger character than that. And here's where I totally agree with: it sucks that we have to wait to see who. It has completely deflated the shock and awe. If we like Daryl (or Glenn, or whoever) and they die, it'll hurt us. But it'll be a different kind of hurt.

In fact, though I can't speak for everyone, it'll piss me off. I think this is what's causing the outrage now. This is what underlies the feeling of being manipulated by TBTB. At least for me.

I think Gimple said the first episode next season starts right at the end of this episode. So, what, we're going to watch the living characters trudge their way back to Alex. carrying the dead body? We'll see moping and groaning and misery. We'll see Rick slip into a big abyss. But I contend that will all play differently THEN than it would have NOW.

I may be wrong. Maybe the writers will bring it. I know the actors can play it well . . . If given the right material.

Edited April 5, 2016 by JackONeill

[catrox14]

 

Unfortunately, sadly I believe this would be true.  I love Richonne but it coming so late in the series right after Rick's relationship with Jessie - it appears that this was merely a plot contrivance to make Michonne's death more devastating for Rick. And that pisses me off as the character of Michonne deserved so much better.

 

Negan saying "Taking it like a champ" I don't think that means anything. He might say that to everyone he bashes in the head as his own catchphrase so I don't think that's a clue who he went after.

 

If they killed Michonne now, I really think they will lose more viewers than they can imagine. They will lose that love Michonne with or without Rick; they will lose those that ship Richonne and love the pairing, they will lose those that love Michonne's relationship with Carl.  No, I don't believe they will do that just to further Rick's story.

 

Killing Daryl would destroy Rick in a whole different way.  Daryl is Rick's brother. He declared him as such. He will have lost his senior advisor, best friend and brother. I think Rick has always thought Daryl was mostly invincible. He loves him and he respects his opinions. Rick didn't go after either Daryl or Michonne. I think that will break Rick in a different way that will benefit the Saviors more in the long run than killing Michonne.  She is a smart, dedicated soldier but she doesn't have the same kind of skills that made Daryl so effective. Daryl was also a little bit crazy and willing to kill...well just about anything LOL. And Dwight wanted Daryl dead.

 

I think Negan already had some idea of who everyone was or at least Daryl,Glenn, Carl and Michonne. All the meeny miny moe stuff was gamesmanship to fuck with all their heads but IMO it was really to fuck with Rick's head. Dwight knew that Daryl was important in some way to CDB and he might have even told Negan this guy has been a pain in our ass for a long time and he's a threat to us.  I think Daryl was the target the entire time.

 

So putting the 4 most important people to Rick together so Negan can play a game of duck duck dead is sending a message to Rick that he can and will take out Rick's people systematically if he doesn't agree to Negan's terms/extortion.

 

Sadly, my money is on Daryl. And then Glenn. And I'm still on the longshot of Rick.

Edited April 5, 2016 by catrox14

[Eyes High]

I don't know if TWD has any Black writers or crew, but someone must know the significance of baseball bats to Black people, unless they are only significant in NYC? (In the 80s, baseball bats were often used to threaten or beat Black people who ventured into Italian neighborhoods. I was on a subway with a man who had a baseball bat underneath his coat. I saw it when he reached up to hold a pole and I can't express how scared I was. I changed seats.) Even if I didn't love Michonne, I would walk away from this show without turning back if they beat her with a bat. (I think it's a horrific visual anyway, and wish the show runners had decided to leave it out completely.) I would even consider writing an op-ed since I no longer have patience for stupid crap like that from adults in the business.

 

I also think it would be a mistake to kill a gay man (Aaron) with a bat. And a Korean man with a bat. I remember being surprised when I read

Michonne was raped by a White man and Glenn was killed with a bat

in the comics. But from what I read here, Kirkman would do that. I don't know if the show would. And after the backlash over the finale, I have to believe they would tread very carefully now. 

 

From a Michonne fan perspective, I'd be heartbroken and enraged if Michonne died, either at Negan's hands or at all. From a Danai fan perspective, if Michonne's death was due to Danai going on to bigger and better things career-wise, well then godspeed.

 

Kirkman seems pretty clueless when it comes to race issues, judging from some of the things that have happened in the comics. He just doesn't get it, and I think complaints about imagery and charged symbolism would sail right over his head. Gimple seems somewhat less clueless, and under his tenure the show has (albeit slowly) moved away from the "one black dude at a time" quota, but maybe that's just me being overly generous. 

 

As for Daryl getting Lucilled, having him die without Carol there to witness it would be a huge missed opportunity. It also seems unlikely that Negan would get the same satisfaction from killing someone who was already severely wounded that he would get from killing someone healthy and strong. I felt a little sorry for Daryl in that sequence at the end:

 

*Michonne is dragged from the vehicle*

*Rick looks horrified*

*Glenn is dragged from the vehicle*

*Maggie looks horrified*

*Rosita glances at Eugene*

*Eugene looks horrified*

*Daryl is forced to his knees*

*Rick looks kind of upset*

 

Aw, Daryl. I still love you.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Eyes High

[The Mighty Peanut]

 

It has completely deflated the shock and awe. If we like Daryl (or Glenn, or whoever) and they die, it'll hurt us. But it'll be a different kind of hurt.

 

This. It is really an incredible feat that they could remove the impact from a scene about being beaten to death with a bat. 

 

If they were that committed to the cliffhanger idea there are better ways of having done it than making the audience wonder who the death was. Gimple is insisting they wanted to end this way because it "marks the end of an era", but IMO cliffhanger didn't really end anything at all. For all we know, Negan could have beat one of his own people to death as his group stood by in silence, just to terrorize CDB and demonstrate his total dominance, and then pulled out a gun and shot Carl, or something. Speech and all he didn't do much to differentiate himself from the Claimers. He just established he was cruel and nuts.

 

Now, I don't think this happened. But the way they presented the cliffhanger doesn't preclude it. If they really wanted a cliffhanger IMO a better way to do it would have been if Negan said "You are it", cut to Glenn's terrified face, and fade to black to the sound of the bat hitting as people screamed. Then there's still suspense but at least the viewer KNOWS there was no last minute reprieve and can be pretty sure who the victim is. I wouldn't have liked this either, FWIW, but something to this effect would have carried more impact. They chose suspense over effective storytelling.

Edited April 6, 2016 by The Mighty Peanut

[rab01]

Kirkman seems pretty clueless when it comes to race issues, judging from some of the things that have happened in the comics. He just doesn't get it, and I think complaints about imagery and charged symbolism would sail right over his head. Gimple seems somewhat less clueless, and under his tenure the show has (albeit slowly) moved away from the "one black dude at a time" quota, but maybe that's just me being overly generous.

Kirkman already put down his marker for who dies -- Glenn died in the comics. But, the show has been willing to switch up character deaths over the years and Schrodinger's Glenn earlier this season would make his death here even more distasteful so I think he's no longer a sure thing. After Glenn, the two easiest to kill from Kirkman's perspective are Daryl and Abe because neither contribute to HIS future plot lines. Having seen Gimple on Talking Dead on Sunday, I don't think he wants to kill Daryl.  In my head, I've already said goodbye to Abe and I won't really care if it's someone else (unless they punk out really hard and it's the only Alexandrian in the circle). 

 

For Michonne fans, however, there is no way she is dying if Kirkman has any say in it whatsoever.  She is his favorite character.

[TVFan17]

I don't think Michonne or any of the females will die by Lucille.  I just don't think the show will go there.   They might die in some other way, but not by Lucille.

 

There were random developments in several characters' stories this past season -- some of them happening at almost the last minute -- that seemed deliberately placed so that there would be more suspense as to who got the bat when the moment finally came.  That's why a great argument could be made for Eugene, Abraham, Glenn, Daryl or Rick.  It was intended that way.  And a good case could be made for Aaron getting the bat too, because he is the closest to a redshirt in the group that is with Negan at the moment.  I can picture Danai wanting to expand her horizons and work on other things, but I just don't think she would be Lucille'd.

 

IF someone major on the cast wanted to leave the show to pursue other things (let's say Danai, Norman or Andrew) and Gimple didn't choose/want to get rid of them, I have a feeling it would have been discussed it with Gimple, Kirkman and the writing gang quite a while back.  I suspect that their death would not just come as a surprise to everyone right before a season began.  There was once a case -- I can't recall who the character was -- where it was said they knew about 1 year or 1-1/2 years in advance that the person was going to die, so they had time to lead the story in that direction and write it that way.

 

I think that's why, IF Andrew or Norman ever wanted to leave the show to pursue other things because they felt like they had done all they could do with the characters -- it would be in the works for quite a while beforehand.  I think that the way the story unfolds (even if it seems a bit rushed) would be leading up to that death, maybe even as early as a year or two in advance.   I know people say "But Norman says he is not leaving" or "Andy seems happy on the show," but the truth is... we just don't know.  We don't know them.   They can say anything, but there are lots of things they won't say in interviews and to people who aren't closely associated with the show.  They're never going to say, "I think I'd like to leave the show to pursue other projects and I feel I have done everything I can do with the character" until they have already left.

 

So, that said,  even though a lot of the characters' stories were leading up to a potential death by Lucille, my belief is still that the van POV is the key.  It will be someone from the van, but not Michonne or Rosita.  If Glenn and Daryl are both miraculously spared, then bye-bye, Abraham.

[Nashville]

Just be glad Judith is still safe and secure back at the ASZ.

Judith's ability to produce for Negan within the next decade or so would be nebulous at best.

[slade3]

I'm not sure if this is a spoiler, but Andrew Lincoln was asked about Negan's victim in Variety:

 

Even now do you or anyone in the cast know who will die?

Because it’s too painful and too intense, we made a pact on set that we won’t speak about it. I apologize but I can’t talk about it.

 

 

 

http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/the-walking-dead-andrew-lincoln-interview-rick-negan-season-6-finale-spoilers-1201745165/

[Ellaria]

I'm not sure if this is a spoiler, but Andrew Lincoln was asked about Negan's victim in Variety:

 

http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/the-walking-dead-andrew-lincoln-interview-rick-negan-season-6-finale-spoilers-1201745165/

 

Nice article. Still don't know what to think. This part of the Q&A intrigued me:

 

But this is the first time where it happens and yet you don’t know who it happens to. Did that change the feeling on set at all?

 

No, because you know that it’s over. The intention is exactly the same. You know that one of us is dying. The moment that Rick gets to his knees and acquiesces and almost hands the crown to Negan, it’s done. I was very consciously trying to position Rick in this place where all he’s fought for and killed for these last few years has been smashed all around him in that final scene. I don’t think it altered anything, the not knowing. Because we’re absolutely convinced that the game is up.

 

The alternatives:

• Everyone knows which character died (including the actor involved) and they are doing their best to dance around the issue and make vague comments.
• They filmed the "bashing" scene with a number of different characters getting bashed. Expensive, yes, but perhaps the best way to film the necessary scene but keep everyone guessing as to the "real" victim.
• Gimple had no idea back in the fall who he wanted to kill and spent the last four months trying to figure it out. The cast will show up in May (?) and one poor actor will hang around the set for a few weeks to appear "alive."

[JackONeill]

Just be glad Judith is still safe and secure back at the ASZ.

Judith's ability to produce for Negan within the next decade or so would be nebulous at best.

Entertainment. She's gotten really good with the red Dixie cups. Even the most evil of people need some downtime.

[J----av]

Brienne has become extremely one-dimensional and tedious in the last few seasons (and a lot of book Brienne fans hate the TV version), but I mostly meant Margaery (who went from a fairly savvy schemer to an idiot and a child predator), the Sand Snakes (a laughingstock), Sansa (who lost about 50 IQ points during season 5 and probably should have been dead after she began telling her psychotic rapist that he was a bastard and worthless - yet according to the show this just proved her intelligence, so...OK...?)  and Ellaria Sand. 

 

 Yeah the sand snakes and Ellaria were terrible. Sansa has always been an idiot, but now she is an idiot and a bad character too

[Pete Martell]

Gimple and his team killed three black characters in a row in season 5. Bob, Tyreese, Noah. I don't think he's any less clueless than Kirkman, but at least the casting got diverse under his leadership - not just in the main roles, but also in supporting roles.

 

Beth was in there somewhere...

[Soobs]

It's for sure going to be Eugene. They don't want to kill any of the main characters and making the audience sweat over the summer was the only way to make a bigger impact with his death. Add to that the fact that Eugene passed on the bullet recipe and had conversations with Abraham and Rick about how glad they are that he's with them. If they'd shown his death in this episode, it would have been sad but not Darryl or Glenn sad.

 

I wish Kirkman and Gimple would focus more on writing better dialogue and less on trolling their audience. The way they approach the big moments on the show is starting to feel cheap.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Soobs

[GreyBunny]

Looks like they've trotted out Andy to do some damage control.  He gets a pat on the head for effort, but if it didn't matter, if it didn't alter anything, then they should have just shown us who got killed. 

But even if it didn't change things for the characters, it did alter things for the audience because we're stuck with this dumb guessing game that detracts both from the horror of moment itself and the feeling that Rick's world just came crashing down.  Withholding the death from the audience took away from both those things.

Edited April 5, 2016 by GreyBunny

[piequinn35]

Gimple and his team killed three black characters in a row in season 5. Bob, Tyreese, Noah. I don't think he's any less clueless than Kirkman, but at least the casting got diverse under his leadership - not just in the main roles, but also in supporting roles.

Beth died after Bob, before Tyrese and Noah

[JackONeill]

Speaking of Beth, do you think Negan has someone on his team who breaks into spontaneous song?

If not, his team sucks, and I'll be switching my allegiance back to CDB.

Wait ... what? Beth's dead?!?

Edited April 5, 2016 by JackONeill

[Pete Martell]

Speaking of Beth, do you think Negan has someone on his team who breaks into spontaneous song?

 

Singing takes away from all the whistling.

[slade3]

IGN interview with Scott Gimple and JDM.

 

From this article it looks like Carl and Maggie are safe. Gimple mentions Maggie's illness will be addressed and Carl will have his moment with Negan. I know none of us thought they were options, but I'd say this article confirms 4 people are alive: Carl, Maggie, Carol and Morgan.

 

And we will, unfortunately, be getting a couple of episodes from Negan's POV.

 

http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/04/04/the-walking-dead-jeffrey-dean-morgan-and-scott-gimples-13-season-7-teases

 

I'm curious about Negan having a "strange respect" for someone who may not be Carl, but I don't want to get to know Negan.

[Pete Martell]

It's for sure going to be Eugene. They don't want to kill any of the main characters and making the audience sweat over the summer was the only way to make a bigger impact with his death. Add to that the fact that Eugene passed on the bullet recipe and had conversations with Abraham and Rick about how glad they are that he's with them. If they'd shown his death in this episode, it would have been sad but not Darryl or Glenn sad.

 

I have a feeling it will be Abraham over Eugene, and the "level up" moments with Eugene are a feint. I'm not really sure what story is left to tell for Abraham, unless they kill Sasha for his manpain (no thank you) or they go for a triangle, which would have limited interest after the harsh way he dumped Rosita. 

 

Of course it could still be Glenn, but after so much foolishness with the fake deaths and winks and nods, I think that would not have anywhere near the impact it should have. And there's still a lot of story left for Glenn so I hope it's not him. I also hope it's not because it would mean the show has really dicked Steven Yeun around this year, multiple times. 

[jsbt]

I think they have to flesh out Negan. He can't just be the cartoon of the comic. I don't see why we can't have episodes in his world.

[Peanut]

So on another site where I hang out, someone said there is a screen shot of the death and you can see a hat and therefore it's Carl.  Everyone said that can't be right, as he pretty much the only one Negan deemed safe, but I just thought I'd put it out there.  

 

I don't think it's Carl. 

[EllenC]

Singing takes away from all the whistling.

 And from the speechifying. Perhaps the Saviors will start rapping their monologues. With "we're all Negan" working in there regularly.

Edited April 6, 2016 by EllenC

[maystone]

I think it's going to be Abraham on the receiving end of Lucille. He was the only one who kept a straight back and looked at Negan - which Negan acknowledged. I don't think a tyrant like Negan would put up with that; he'd see it as an automatic challenge to his power. I didn't hear the "takin' it like a champ" dialogue, but my belief is that it sure would fit how Abraham would take that beating. Never cry out; never give an inch.

[TVFan17]

There's a petition?  http://comicbook.com/2016/04/05/fans-petition-amc-to-reveal-the-walking-dead-cliffhanger-ending/

 

Hee hee.  Again, after I saw the outrage directed at the Hallmark Channel for daring to split up a movie into 2 installments separated by almost a year, nothing surprises me about the reaction to the Negan/Lucille cliffhanger on TWD.

 

I didn't like the cliffhanger because, for me, personally, it kills the momentum and emotion of the moment when there is a big delay to find out what happened.  It would have been more shocking to me if everything happened in one episode.  But... I'm not signing a petition!  Life will go on for the next 6 months.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Sherry67

[Pete Martell]

Man, I hate using this term but the show has had "effective and memorable deaths." I think we'd all list Herschel's death in that group, probably at the top. I think Lori's death, even though many disliked her character, was heart-ripping, and Rick's reaction was warranted. Shane's death, though expected, was memorable. (Maybe T-dog, but he was so undeveloped, IMO.)(Each viewer may have a slightly different list.)

But somewhere in Season 3, TPTB dropped the ball of showing true charcater development . . . or it was all over the map. Think Tyrese. And poor Andrea's death could have been more, but by then they'd ruined the character (as most people think).

Beth. Her own sister didn't even wonder where she was.

Noah, Spenser's brother, Deanna, Jessie - they were set pieces at best. Just a way to further the story, or to give an actor a chance to emote (think Noah's death).

Somewhere I read TPTB saw that they had to eliminate Denise to get the Negan story underway. Well, that sucks if you liked Denise. So, I essence, she had no real reason to live OR die. It's callous and manipulative.

So, here we are: someone has died. Inescapable. (I say that because I didn't see any dumpsters for our characters to roll under.)

But, for me with the exception of Rick, Carl and Michone, I don't really care (much) and it's because the writers have dropped the ball on characterization.

I'm sorry, it takes more than a couple of random lines at the last minute between Abe and Eugene to flesh out the characters. But that seems to be the extent of charcater development for these writers.

 

I think they've done a fair amount to flesh out Eugene over the last few seasons. It feels like they've sped that up lately, either because he's going to die or to fake us out, but to me it's been there. Gabriel is another whose development was rushed through. 

 

There are other characters I think have gone through slow, believable changes as well - Tara, Rosita, among others. The problem for me is not development (at least with some - I do think others like Abraham have had issues) as much as it's whether the deaths end up seeming contrived and whether characters are developed solely to kill them off. That's what ended up annoying me so much with Beth. The alternative is people with no discernible personality just being there to die (like Oscar, or Jacqui), butt here should be a middle ground.

There's a petition?  http://comicbook.com/2016/04/05/fans-petition-amc-to-reveal-the-walking-dead-cliffhanger-ending/

 

Hee hee.  Again, after I saw the outrage directed at the Hallmark Channel for daring to split up a movie into 2 installments separated by almost a year, nothing surprises me about the reaction to the Negan/Lucille cliffhanger on TWD.

 

I didn't like the cliffhanger because, for me, personally, it kills the momentum and emotion of the moment when there is a big delay to find out what happened.  It would have been more shocking to me if everything happened in one episode.  But... I'm not signing a petition!  Life will go on for the next 6 months.

 

It's hard for me to take those seriously after tons of people petitioned for a Beth return even though they saw her shot in the head oncamera.

[TVFan17]

I think they've done a fair amount to flesh out Eugene over the last few seasons. It feels like they've sped that up lately, either because he's going to die or to fake us out, but to me it's been there. Gabriel is another whose development was rushed through. 

 

There are other characters I think have gone through slow, believable changes as well - Tara, Rosita, among others. The problem for me is not development (at least with some - I do think others like Abraham have had issues) as much as it's whether the deaths end up seeming contrived and whether characters are developed solely to kill them off. That's what ended up annoying me so much with Beth. The alternative is people with no discernible personality just being there to die (like Oscar, or Jacqui), butt here should be a middle ground.

 

It's hard for me to take those seriously after tons of people petitioned for a Beth return even though they saw her shot in the head oncamera.

 

Lol.  I heard about (didn't actually see it) the Beth petition a while back!  When I first heard about it I thought I had gotten the info wrong, and that it was started before the character was killed off.  And then I realized the petition was started after she was already long dead.   Were the people who signed that petition thinking she would magically turn up as not dead... or not undead... or whatever?  Or maybe her return would have just meant an endless stream of flashbacks and music videos randomly inserted between scenes.

[Nashville]

Beth who?

 

Hi, Maggie!

[jsbt]

I actually believe in Eugene and Gabriel's development throughout Season 6. I think Gabriel especially has come a long way recently (and Seth Gilliam plays it to the hilt), but his story is largely a C-plot while Eugene has moved up to the B-tier and gotten a lot of exposure. I hope Gabriel will get more because I think what's happened to him is very interesting - that cool precision.

 

I did like Jacqui. If that was TWD it became, that actress would've gotten a lot more.

I think it's going to be Abraham on the receiving end of Lucille. He was the only one who kept a straight back and looked at Negan - which Negan acknowledged.

 

He wasn't the only one: Michonne.

Edited April 6, 2016 by jsbt

[JackONeill]

I've always liked Tara. I like how she was (and still is) sort of a doofus, stayed indoors, then all of a sudden had to cope. Now, I still put her in level 3 because she hasn't had much to do (yes, I'm aware of the pregnancy).

I like Rosita, too. But we don't really know anything about her. We can extrapolate some things: smart, warrior, bad choice in men, etc.

FPP almost no one liked at the beginning. But they kept him around. (Like Eugene, he had no conceivable talent. Yes, now, Eugene is showing his worth, building bullets, leading the bad guys in a three-minute wild goose chase). Now a lot of people like FPP. He's protecting Judith and the town, while everyone else goes shopping. But what brought this change? They've shown a few things and we can extrapolate, but the thing is, they just don't get all that much character development. A line here or there, a scene here or there, a knowing wink here or there. Then, the audience is left with filling in the rest. And if the audience blinks . . .

It's been what - 2 years - and we're finally seeing the value in Eugene. Before he was standing around like a boob.

Now I hear the actor playing Heath is leaving. He might be back, or not. But what was the point? (He had potential, but it . . . evaporated.)

I hate to bring up Lost again, but in Season 1 we knew the characters, all the way down to Hurley, and Sun and Jin. Sure, later on we learned that they were all something more that what we originally thought. Think about that. That show ran six years: but in six years we got to know each character TWICE. (Puff aside how well you think the show ended.)

i know every show has a right to be itself, and do things the way they want to do them. But I think character development is basic Writing 101.

When they killed off Noah, Tyrese, Andrea and Beth I didn't really care because I didn't know who the hell they were.

Edited April 6, 2016 by JackONeill

[jsbt]

I think Gabriel's change got kickstarted by his breakdown at the end of Season 5 and his learning to defend himself and the people he cared for this year. I thought they clearly showed that change. I don't think the characters don't have throughlines just because they aren't frontburner. I think they absolutely showed Eugene grow and change, and I don't think Tara is a cipher either. Rosita's also being slowly developed.

Edited April 6, 2016 by jsbt

[Eyes High]

It feels like they have set up either Eugene or Abraham to die. Both got their moments in the last few episodes of season six. Abe worked through some of his issues and embarked on a new romantic relationship, while Eugene had some heroic moments, passed on his bullet recipe and got to share a moment with Abraham in which he finally got approval from him. None of the other characters have really been on such a path where it feels like the journeys of the characters are approaching a natural end.

 

I'm not so sure about Eugene's journey approaching a natural end. Maybe I'm overly influenced by the comics, but I do think there's some sort of storyline developing with Eugene and Rosita; I was skeptical before, but not so much after the finale. During that sequence at the end with Glenn, Daryl, Rosita, etc. dragged out of the vehicle, when Rosita was dragged out, it wasn't the reaction of her ex-boyfriend that was shown, but Eugene's.

 

I will be annoyed if they go through all this nonsense and make us wait six months just to off Glenn. With that said, the moment when Glenn sees the Polaroids of Lucille's previous victims seemed like a chilling bit of foreshadowing, and it loses a bit of its power if Glenn escapes Lucille after all.

 

 

Meanwhile, Daryl and Glenn - the most likely other candidates - have had their cop-out moments in season six that would kind of overshadow the emotional impact of an encounter with Lucille, though they shouldn't be taken out of the equation, because they'd be the only characters with whose demise the writers would be able to shock the audience and prove that they are still brave enough to take out favorites. Also, both characters have been stuck in terms of character development for years.

I suspect Daryl's new storyline will be marinating in guilt over having indirectly caused not just Denise's but also Glenn's death (assuming it's Glenn who dies). Making things even worse, the person he loves most and his only real source of emotional support, Carol, has gone AWOL. I think Rick won't have the monopoly on manpain next season.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Eyes High

[Mu Shu]

The comic Maggie might be interesting, but show Maggie is the least interesting female, IMO. Wouldn't mind losing her and have Rosita take her place.

I am convinced it's Eugene because who would miss Abe with all his butt and poop talk? Eugene has slowly been positioned to be a sympathetic character, while Abe remains a cartoon.

I have no inside knowledge or spoilers, but Negan is Carl's kill. Although I hope it warms up before he bites it, so he can wear his super cool Members Only jacket. Seriously show, Dressing your villains in '80's gear is lame. all I could focus on during the offscreen beating was did he have an MJ Thriller jacket, too.

[EllenC]

I have no inside knowledge or spoilers, but Negan is Carl's kill. Although I hope it warms up before he bites it, so he can wear his super cool Members Only jacket. Seriously show, Dressing your villains in '80's gear is lame. all I could focus on during the offscreen beating was did he have an MJ Thriller jacket, too.

Indeed. All those many minions, and no one can get Negan a jacket that fits better?

[Juliegirlj]

I still believe that Carol would get more story out of NOT being there for Daryl's death. Plus it goes against everything Carol is to think she would kneel quietly while her best friend or someone she loves gets bludgeoned. Even if it meant her own death as well.

It bugged me that Rick made no attempt to reason with anyone. It just seemed like he gave up so easy. I don't believe for a second that the cast doesn't know who is leaving. They are notified well in advance so they can make arrangements. That's why Norman Reedus selling his home is such a huge clue. No coincidence.

[Eyes High]

The comic Maggie might be interesting, but show Maggie is the least interesting female, IMO. Wouldn't mind losing her and have Rosita take her place.

I am convinced it's Eugene because who would miss Abe with all his butt and poop talk? Eugene has slowly been positioned to be a sympathetic character, while Abe remains a cartoon.

 

Heh. This process certainly has made it easier for fans to determine their personal rankings for favourite characters based on the possibility of their demise. 

 

I don't believe for a second that the cast doesn't know who is leaving. They are notified well in advance so they can make arrangements. 

 

I agree.

 

Plus it goes against everything Carol is to think she would kneel quietly while her best friend or someone she loves gets bludgeoned.

I disagree. Carol's a strategic thinker with considerable emotional self-discipline; there is very little she does that isn't calculated. She let Maggie get dragged off to be interrogated by Chelle without lifting a finger, other than revealing Maggie's pregnancy to protect her (a gambit that worked, as it turned out), because she knew at that moment they were outnumbered. She would absolutely kneel quietly if she thought there was a greater risk to her loved ones to her acting out; Eugene, who is also a strategic thinker, made the same calculus in the finale and shut his trap.

 

Also, Carol doesn't really "do" open confrontation, probably because she knows her limits in that department. Her tools are stealth and surprise: the Mac-9 in the sleeve, the walker guts disguise, the Wolf disguise, imitating Paula on the walkie-talkie to lure the Saviours into a trap, faking an injury, faking helplessness, sneaking up on the Wolves from behind, etc. She also has a knack for improvising based on available resources: the Saviour trap with the gas in the kill room, the fireworks she used to ignite the propane tank, the crucifix she sharpened to free herself, the car spike she used to impale the Saviour, etc. When she doesn't have the benefit of either stealth or surprise, and when she doesn't have improvised weapons at the ready, there's not a heck of a lot she can do, and she is overpowered in physical combat pretty easily by an able-bodied man (the Saviour in the finale, Morgan in the midseason finale).

Edited April 8, 2016 by Eyes High

[Nutjob]

With Maggie now sick and Denise dead, Glenn doesn't need to die for there to be a reason for them both to relocate to the Hilltop--Alexandria has no doctor. A pregnant Maggie could very likely want to be close to that OB/GYN after this scare (curious that Hilltop's doctor just happens to specialize in babies and lady bits, eh?), and if Glenn is spared Lucille, he would happily go with her to make sure she and their baby are safe. That's why I think there's still a good chance Glenn is spared his comic death here.

[Juliegirlj]

A good portion of this season seems to have been for the simple purpose of confusing the viewers who would or wouldn't be Negan's victim. To me it is the potential jumping of the shark moment for the show. Just tell the Goddamned story, and if we figure it out ahead of time, so what. If they follow the comic, or don't follow the comic, again, of secondary importance to telling a good story, and maintaining the integrity of the show. We aren't playing Clue here! The blood on the camera, POV camera shtick, Glenn dumpster-gate, and ultimately the cliffhanger ending are all a big epic fail. I wish there was a flip the bird button on AMC, because I would fly that bird at Gimple alllll day!

[slade3]

With Maggie now sick and Denise dead, Glenn doesn't need to die for there to be a reason for them both to relocate to the Hilltop--Alexandria has no doctor. A pregnant Maggie could very likely want to be close to that OB/GYN after this scare (curious that Hilltop's doctor just happens to specialize in babies and lady bits, eh?), and if Glenn is spared Lucille, he would happily go with her to make sure she and their baby are safe. That's why I think there's still a good chance Glenn is spared his comic death here.

Good point. Thanks. I'd like to see Glenn be a father, so it's a nice reminder that the Hilltop story line can still play out even if Glenn is spared.

A good portion of this season seems to have been for the simple purpose of confusing the viewers who would or wouldn't be Negan's victim. To me it is the potential jumping of the shark moment for the show. Just tell the Goddamned story, and if we figure it out ahead of time, so what. If they follow the comic, or don't follow the comic, again, of secondary importance to telling a good story, and maintaining the integrity of the show. We aren't playing Clue here! The blood on the camera, POV camera shtick, Glenn dumpster-gate, and ultimately the cliffhanger ending are all a big epic fail. I wish there was a flip the bird button on AMC, because I would fly that bird at Gimple alllll day!

Just tell the story. Exactly.

[J----av]

Negan saying "Taking it like a champ" I don't think that means anything. He might say that to everyone he bashes in the head as his own catchphrase so I don't think that's a clue who he went after.

 

If they killed Michonne now, I really think they will lose more viewers than they can imagine. They will lose that love Michonne with or without Rick; they will lose those that ship Richonne and love the pairing, they will lose those that love Michonne's relationship with Carl.  No, I don't believe they will do that just to further Rick's story.

 

Killing Daryl would destroy Rick in a whole different way.  Daryl is Rick's brother. He declared him as such. He will have lost his senior advisor, best friend and brother. I think Rick has always thought Daryl was mostly invincible. He loves him and he respects his opinions. Rick didn't go after either Daryl or Michonne. I think that will break Rick in a different way that will benefit the Saviors more in the long run than killing Michonne.  She is a smart, dedicated soldier but she doesn't have the same kind of skills that made Daryl so effective. Daryl was also a little bit crazy and willing to kill...well just about anything LOL. And Dwight wanted Daryl dead.

 

I think Negan already had some idea of who everyone was or at least Daryl,Glenn, Carl and Michonne. All the meeny miny moe stuff was gamesmanship to fuck with all their heads but IMO it was really to fuck with Rick's head. Dwight knew that Daryl was important in some way to CDB and he might have even told Negan this guy has been a pain in our ass for a long time and he's a threat to us.  I think Daryl was the target the entire time.

 

So putting the 4 most important people to Rick together so Negan can play a game of duck duck dead is sending a message to Rick that he can and will take out Rick's people systematically if he doesn't agree to Negan's terms/extortion.

 

Sadly, my money is on Daryl. And then Glenn. And I'm still on the longshot of Rick.

 

 If you think killing Michonne will lose them more viewers then they can imagine well killing Daryl would be about 10 times worse for viewers. He really is the only breakout crossover appeal star that the show has managed to produce.