Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[calliope1975]

41 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I’m bitter that there were no shirtless scenes this season, and the salmon ladder didn’t get a single appearance before it’s untimely demise last night. RIP, Sally. Thanks for the memories. ?

I didn't even realize. S7 better open with a new bunker and Sally's sister Sammy with a big red bow on her.

[Chaser]

Imagine how much better it would have been if they switched Diaz and Cayden James.

Diaz is this thug who recruits a sonic powered meta-human and a genius computer hacker. He's running a drug business. He's got a street gang. He talks big and wants to be a king. He gets in Oliver's face makes his presence known. He gets a couple wins and the Team think he's the big Villain.

MSF time. He's got his monologue going, douche on full display. Cayden and BS exchange a look. BS comes up behind him and disables him. Cayden walks over and quietly explains that a street thug with a small penis complex can't be a king. It's going to take something different to take this city. BS melts his brain.

Cayden James with his genius hacker abilities finds all the dirt on the city power players and law enforcement, turning the city into his own personal army. He forces a wedge between OTA and NTA by planting evidence of mistrust (idk how exactly but anything would be more believable than what they did). He has BS make a miraculous re appearance as E1 Laurel Lance, laying the ground work for Oliver to be exposed as the GA. They made BC a saint in S5, maybe BS goes out and says Oliver is a serial killing manic who arrowed her when she questioned him or something. Cayden can plant any evidence they need.

Now Oliver is facing multiple battles. NTA doesn't trust him. Law enforcement is against. The public doesn't know what to believe.

Finale time. Oliver is still forced to go to Watson. Watson agrees to work with him cause it's her job to catch bad guys.

Diggle and NTA fight the corrupt police force. Felicity and Cayden engage in a hack off to control the City. Oliver kills BS.

Watson thinks Oliver is a good guy but Watson is also a cop who believes in law. Oliver still agrees to plead guilty to being the GA and go to prison in exchange for immunity for the others.

Entering S7. Oliver still gets outed as the Green Arrow. He is still in prison. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

I remember when Mericle started doing the producer's previews and doing most of the talking at SDCC and fans felt optimistic things will change with her co-showrunning. And yet, nothing really changed. S4 is one of the most boring seasons, second only to S6, IMO. It's a bit different this time because Beth is sole showrunner. But even if the "consulting producer" title is just a consolation for Guggenheim, I still don't feel optimistic anything will really change. I've always had problems with Beth's scripts, where Felicity tends to act in un-Felicity-like manner (213, 307, 406, 520). I don't know how much of that is her or her co-writer. And she's still starting the season with not just the mess of a storyline Guggenheim and Mericle left but also with the useless NTA, that psycho BS and mumbler Diaz.

Watch them highlight NTA and BS in all the promos before the S7 premiere like they did in S6 for whatever arrangements were made with the actors, not because they actually want to highlight the characters proven to be actual draws. Watch them stuff SDCC with same people last season except for Blackthorne and Willa. 

[Starfish35]

From News & Media thread:

Quote

Sara already knows Quentin wanted to find the light within this Laurel and it was something that she practically supported.

Would anyone know that that hadn’t read the book, or at least read of the book like we have here?

Personally, it would have been more interesting to me to see Sara have to deal with an unapologetically evil BS.  I honestly don’t see where they think they’re going with this “redemption” angle.  From my point of view, it’s done no one any favors at all - not Quentin, not Sara, not even BS herself.  

[Primal Slayer]

8 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

From News & Media thread:

Would anyone know that that hadn’t read the book, or at least read of the book like we have here?

Personally, it would have been more interesting to me to see Sara have to deal with an unapologetically evil BS.  I honestly don’t see where they think they’re going with this “redemption” angle.  From my point of view, it’s done no one any favors at all - not Quentin, not Sara, not even BS herself.  

Of course majority wouldn't know that and I think it was something that should've been dealt with in the show but even if they don't know that then this is the first Sara has seen or heard of Siren on TV in general so you practically get the same result. I think they played the scene really good, Sara has to stop herself from being excited to see Laurel and ask how much is this woman like the sister I knew. Hardly at all, but this woman clearly cares for my father and he clearly cared for her. Where do they go from here?

I wont say they did the Laurel/Quentin storyline spectacularly,  but I think they set themselves up for a more interesting dynamic with everyone. 

[apinknightmare]

It's only interesting to me if there isn't a single soul on this show who pretends or hopes that this Laurel can be just like the other one. It's gross, and all they seem to be able to do with it is turn somewhat rational people completely nutbars to make it happen. Ditch that, please. Please. 

[Starfish35]

It might be interesting if 1) KC was capable of playing a complicated multi-layered character, and 2) if the writers were able to write her as such without turning her and everyone around her into absolute idiots to facilitate her half-baked "redemption".

I have no faith in either of those things being true.  YMMV.

[way2interested]

39 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

2) if the writers were able to write her as such without turning her and everyone around her into absolute idiots to facilitate her half-baked "redemption".

Luckily it actually hadn't spread to OTA for the most part.

[statsgirl]

How could Quentin care for Black Siren?  He didn't know who she really was. To him, she was another version of his Laurel and he spent his time trying to turn her into his real daughter, from forcing her to look at Happy Family photos to giving her Laurel's law books so she could do that too.

There could have been a story there about what it means to lose someone you love and see her in a look-alike and try to deal with all that emotionally. But that's not what this show did, it was Quentin going crazy to turn this other woman into his daughter without any real insight into what he was going through (because it's a superhero show about Oliver, not Quentin).  Nor was there any insight into LL2's thoughts other than going from "I love killing people", "this guy be crazy" to "he's dying and I'm sadz".  Did she really lose her father as a child or was that a sob story for Quentin like losing her Oliver was a sob story for Oliver?  Why was she sleeping with Diaz when Quentin had been doing his best to save her?  What made her change her position, certainly not seeing Diaz turn that guy into a torch when she herself has done worse.

Could this have been done well?  Yes, on another show. But the time Arrow had for it couldn't possibly have done it justice and so in the end, a bunch of characters couldn't tell the difference between LL1 and LL2, especially the writers, and an interesting villain got "redeemed" with no good explanation and even less character study.

It feels like fanservice.

[BunsenBurner]

I went to a wedding this weekend that had a photo booth at the reception and it got me thinking. How is it possible that Oliver had his wallet in his pocket when he was having sex with Sara?  This has always bugged me. Ok, they might of just been kissing but they weren’t going anywhere it would be weird to put your wallet in your pocket when you are on the boat. It’s like you are at home, you are not going to Big Belly Burger you’re surrounded by water. The picture of Laurel and the wallet should never have been in his pocket. What did he think as he was being pulled from the ship, “Hey I need my picture of Laurel?”  Thanks for reading my rant. 

[bijoux]

I agree, but I'm also laughing at how a wedding prompted this train of thought. 

[Featherhat]

I've always found it weird, especially as he didn't look that jazzed about her giving it to him in the first place and that it survived him being in the water. Yeah also the part where he literally has a picture of her sister in his pocket as they about to have sex, I assume not for the first time on the cruise.

[BunsenBurner]

7 hours ago, bijoux said:

I agree, but I'm also laughing at how a wedding prompted this train of thought. 

It was an outdoor wedding the skies opened up and we were soaked by the time we ran back to the place where the reception was being held outdoors. They had hurriedly put up a tent because it was raining so hard. Then we started drinking and someone brought up scenarios from movies, TV and real life where things like this happened. The view from the tent was a large lake and that reminded me of the picture.    

We went indoors for the booth and the cake cutting. BTW the grooms cake was a replica of the trophy of the Cubs winning the World Series, it was fantastic. They even had small boxes of Cracker Jacks and peanuts for favors. Their  best favor though was everyone got a bottle of champagne to take home.

I don’t think anyone got a picture where they weren’t wet. We were soaked but it was loads of fun. 

[Mellowyellow]

38 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

I think... I might... be done?? Like, I'll give it one more episode but I was just so bored for most of this. I honestly don't care about anyone except Oliver and Felicity and even the flash forward was tainted by the idea that Oliver and Felicity abandoned William (as if!). Don't get me started on what, in summary, becomes this conversation:

Diggle: Why won't you let me be the Arrow? I was supposed to be the Arrow. It's so unfair! You promised! *chucks giant tantrum*.

Oliver: Diggle, the one thing I ask of you while i'm in prison is being the Arrow.

Diggle: Don't wanna. 

Are you ready to peace out? I get so annoyed at this show sometimes but I'm never at the peacing out stage and I think you need to be at the peacing out stage to let go.

I'm still such an avid shipper *sigh*

With everything else I'm at the "Haha that is soooo stupid. Okay" and I roll with it.

In all fairness this season has not been too bad so far. No more stupid that S5 or S6 really. Is it wearing you down after 6 seasons?

Haha it takes a special kind of resilience to watch the DCTV shows!

[AudienceofOne]

13 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Are you ready to peace out?

It's not like this season is worse than the last season. It's just the relentlessness of it. I've lost patience with it. It's one thing when part of the character's development was him learning to work as a team and he therefore needed a team. it's another when the team becomes their own purpose and he becomes just another character in his own show. Why is Laurel still here? Why has NTA not apologised for their appalling behaviour? Who even cares about Diaz - he's not even that compelling a villain. Why does the FBI care more about taking down Oliver than an entire city being taken over by an organised crime ring? 

I think it's more that I'm watching a lot of television at the moment and I have to make time for Arrow. I'm starting to wonder if it's worth it - although I admit I love every bit of Olicity and I've had a lot of fun bitching about this show the last few years too. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

 I don’t know if it was smart to pull up Netflix last night to watch season one. Because that Oliver? Was smart.  Not as computer savvy as Felicity obviously, but he was smart. Now Amell’s acting could use major improvement and you can see it has over the years, but for all my bitching over the show using Batman’s Rogues Gallery and other stuff, it shows me that the NOOBS are so much detritus and so NOT NEEDED or NECESSARY. And it makes me so so bitter to see what’s become of Digg and Felicity’s friendship. I have no hope that he’ll apologize for being a sucky ass friend and telling her to forget Oliver and move on. Just as with the betrayal of the NOOBS, it’ll be swept under the rug because that’s how this show rolls.

[insomniadreams88]

11 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

it makes me so so bitter to see what’s become of Digg and Felicity’s friendship. I have no hope that he’ll apologize for being a sucky ass friend and telling her to forget Oliver and move on. Just as with the betrayal of the NOOBS, it’ll be swept under the rug because that’s how this show rolls.

Same. We're more likely to see Felicity apologizing to Diggle for "pushing him out" than to see him apologizing to her. And it makes me bitter that I expect that to happen. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Man, I knew I shouldn't have binged through the first two seasons over the holiday. In comparison, this season and the two before it SUCK HARD. And I don't know if I can even get interested in watching the rest of this season. Especially since new show runner says that the future that we're seeing in the flash forwards can't and won't be changed. What's the point of watching if this future is set in stone? And that they're going to continue with this dystopian future in not just this season, but future seasons?

Like I give any blue dilly figgedity fucks about any of the NOOBS, present AND FUTURE.

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Man, I knew I shouldn't have binged through the first two seasons over the holiday. In comparison, this season and the two before it SUCK HARD. And I don't know if I can even get interested in watching the rest of this season. Especially since new show runner says that the future that we're seeing in the flash forwards can't and won't be changed. What's the point of watching if this future is set in stone? And that they're going to continue with this dystopian future in not just this season, but future seasons?

Like I give any blue dilly figgedity fucks about any of the NOOBS, present AND FUTURE.

I still think by the time they reveal all the future details, we'll find Star City falling is a very recent thing after a long boom but yeah, it sucks to know oops, they failed in the long run.  And even if they once again save the city, the flash-forward has now conditioned us to assume whatever good thing happens is only temporary.  But I do think they will walk back the length and level of dystopia in Star City...even if the walk backs don't really make sense. 

[Mary0360]

I made a conscious choice not to watch the crossover because I figured it would be a shit show and turns out most thought it was. But I just saw these gifs from the crossover where Oliver is telling Barry he's not a good person but that with Barry's help or because he knows Barry he will be one day. Seriously!! When volunteering the NTA for tributes I hope Barry is thrown in there with them.  

[tennisgurl]

I know that this isnt technically on the Arrow writers (for once) but I am still super bitter about how the crossover treated Oliver. They acted as though the last several seasons of character development, where he got married, became a father, became a leader, both in his hero and civilian lives, and faced his demons head on, just never happened. He hasn't been the angry vigilante working alone through his violent rage that he was in season one in years, and yet they keep talking about Oliver like he is some horrible damaged monster who is barley keeping his murders in check, not the hero that he is. 

Oliver has his faults, and while some of those are on the often crappy writing, he does have a lot of issues that he still hasn't really worked out yet. But, he is still a hero, he has still selflessly sacrificed himself and his own happiness for countless others time and time again, and despite being deeply traumatized by everything that has happened to him since the boat ride from hell, he has really tried to be a better man. Just because he isnt all sunny and happy like Kara and Barry, that doesent mean he isnt just as much of a hero, and its offensive to both him as a character, and us as fans, to say otherwise. 

Edited December 17, 2018 by tennisgurl

[olicityfan25]

It's hilarious to me because if Oliver is such a bad person why would they want to associate let alone work with him? See it doesn't make any sense!

[Mellowyellow]

I think in the Arrowverse being jolly excuses you from being an asshole. I quit supergirl cuz Kara became a cheerful asshole. 

The subpar writing by third rate writers means they boil things down to very simple concepts. 

Broody less chipper person = demon with lots of monsters inside

Cheerful bubbly person = lovely and full of goodness

They don't seem to realise how certain actions come across to the audience and that we the audience can recognise asshole behaviour even if you're beaming adorably while you're constantly being a dickhead.

What's quite bizzare is that Oliver while Oliver isn't cheesy and "light" in the heavy handed way they like to portray "good" in the Arrowverse, he's actually a big softie when it comes to his friends and family. 

Also shit happens to Oliver ALL the time through no fault of his. Like last season when he was the only sane person besides Felicity.

[tv echo]

I don't think the other Arrowverse shows' writers or showrunners have watched or followed Arrow for several seasons now. It's the same whenever Felicity crosses over to The Flash - all of a sudden, she's written as if she's reverted back to S1 Felicity. It's for that reason that I no longer want any Arrow characters to cross over to the other shows.

What's more puzzling to me is why MG - the supposed consulting producer for all three crossover episodes - went along or even wrote Oliver this way. It's also puzzling that SA didn't say or try to change Oliver's characterization in the crossover. I guess he was just having too much fun.

One of the things that I like about Arrow is that the characters are complex, three-dimensional characters, who make mistakes but who also learn and evolve with time and experience. Oliver - and also Felicity - have changed considerably since S1.

Edited December 17, 2018 by tv echo

[GHScorpiosRule]

41 minutes ago, tv echo said:

What's more puzzling to me is why MG - the supposed consulting producer for all three crossover episodes - went along or even wrote Oliver this way. It's also puzzling that SA didn't say or try to change Oliver's characterization in the crossover. I guess he was just having too much fun.

I don't know why Guggenheim remained silent, but as for why Stephen didn's say anything? My opinion is that these writers weren't from his show, and unlike the writers on his show, where he can speak up, maybe he felt he couldn't? Or maybe he did, and they just ignored him? It's all speculation at this point. I'm one who watches most of the shows. So I'm very much irked over how the Flash writers wrote Oliver. And Iris' reaction in this cross-over, because I still clearly remember Iris's reaction to learning that Oliver was Green Arrow. How he became "so much hotter" now that she knew that. So it's all bullshit as far as I'm concerned.

45 minutes ago, tv echo said:

One of the things that I like about Arrow is that the characters are complex, three-dimensional characters, who make mistakes but who also learn and evolve with time and experience. Oliver - and also Felicity - have changed considerably since S1.

I'm sorry, but I just had to 😆😆😆😆😆 at the bolded. Because the only ones who have changed and are three dimensional are the core: Oliver, Felicity and John. Though John has been a POD person the past two seasons, with the crossover being the exception.

And I just have to say this, because of all that the show gets mocked and reviled, for a few years, it was a good show, and it had very good actors in supporting  roles, and two as major characters, that actually had stakes and stuck with them. I'm speaking of Smallville of course. And in their 100th, they killed Bo Kent. And stuck with it. Unlike this show, who acted like,'ooh, look at us! we killed Laurel! HUGE stakes! Aren't we brave?' only to bring her ass back. Even if it's not original Laurel. She's still Laurel from another Earth, and has taken over the life of original Laurel. She never really left. Whereas Bo Kent was dead.dead.dead. And oh, how I wish it had been the Pink Pestilence. While Tom Welling isn't the greatest thespian, his performances in the 100th and ESPECIALLY in the 101st, dealing with his dad's death, was the best he's ever been. It guts me every time I watch it. And yes, I re-watch every year, and it's coming up for that time. Moira's death is the only high stakes action I've seen from this show.

[Featherhat]

I was annoyed that Barry used the "did you know he slept with his girlfriend's sister? Hahaha gottya!"" and Oliver's "oh hey no fair!" reaction to it. Because that is the path that lead to the destruction of Oliver and Sara's 20 year old lives and decent into literal hell/rape/torture/murder etc which is still on going for both of them and Barry knows some of that even if Kara doesn't. It also lead to E1LL's death as a side bar very eventually. Not to mention Oliver and Sara both mentioned  in Invasion!that none of them would be here if they hadn't got on the Gambit all those years ago including Barry and therefore he wouldn't know Kara. 

And Oliver not remembering if he'd slept with a reporter in S2 was just dumb, he hadn't slept with that many women since he'd come back that he couldn't remember even if it was supposed to be between Isobel and Sara. That was a cheap "Comics Ollie" joke. 

Plus anyone who calls themselves a hero or thinks they are morally better than someone who does essentially the same thing (and it is) is automatically suspect than someone who sits at the same table and says they definitely aren't but sacrifices themselves for others over and over again. 

I know this was part one of two for next year's "But he really was a total hero (again!)" etc but it made everyone dumber and meaner than usual. 

Edited December 17, 2018 by Featherhat

[insomniadreams88]

4 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

And Oliver not remembering if he'd slept with a reporter in S2 was just dumb, he hadn't slept with that many women since he'd come back that he couldn't remember even if it was supposed to be between Isobel and Sara. That was a cheap "Comics Ollie" joke. 

Oh, yeah, I'm definitely bitter about this because I have no idea why they decided they had to link it to QC/S2. Why not say Oliver knew her from one of his colleges, back when she was studying journalism or something? At least it would've made sense for him to sleep with her then. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

And Oliver not remembering if he'd slept with a reporter in S2 was just dumb, he hadn't slept with that many women since he'd come back that he couldn't remember even if it was supposed to be between Isobel and Sara. That was a cheap "Comics Ollie" joke. 

 

Just now, insomniadreams88 said:

Oh, yeah, I'm definitely bitter about this because I have no idea why they decided they had to link it to QC/S2. Why not say Oliver knew her from one of his colleges, back when she was studying journalism or something? At least it would've made sense for him to sleep with her then. 

I didn't even see as that--a cheap "Comics Ollie" joke, that is. I saw it as another Batman history stolent to use for Oliver because Bruce Wayne boinked Vesper.

[apinknightmare]

It was especially annoying because I can't really think of a time when Oliver cared enough about QC to even bother sleeping with someone to get some good press. 

[Featherhat]

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

It was especially annoying because I can't really think of a time when Oliver cared enough about QC to even bother sleeping with someone to get some good press. 

Yeah that was another point I was going to make. He as only 1/3rd hearted at best. Sleeping with someone to get a good business write up would have even been a step up from not bothering to turn up to the office in 2 months (whilst Felicity did) and then signing over his company on a (legally biding?!) napkin to someone he knows doesn't have his best interests at heart because she has told him so. 

[apinknightmare]

5 hours ago, tv echo said:

It's also puzzling that SA didn't say or try to change Oliver's characterization in the crossover. I guess he was just having too much fun.

He may have, but I don't think it would've made much of a difference. Too much of the crossover hinged on painting Oliver in that light, not to mention the fact that Todd Helbing said there's a little arc for Barry dealing with it further on in The Flash's season:

Quote

Helbing went on to say that The Flash will deal with whether or not too much of Oliver’s darkness seeped into Barry during the crossover. “There’s an episode a little bit down the line where Barry deals a little bit with that,” he said.

[GHScorpiosRule]

13 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

He may have, but I don't think it would've made much of a difference. Too much of the crossover hinged on painting Oliver in that light, not to mention the fact that Todd Helbing said there's a little arc for Barry dealing with it further on in The Flash's season:

Helbing went on to say that The Flash will deal with whether or not too much of Oliver’s darkness seeped into Barry during the crossover. “There’s an episode a little bit down the line where Barry deals a little bit with that,” he said.

And what Helbing said is SUCH BULLSHIT.

[Mary0360]

I love that "darkness" has apparently become the chicken pox. Get to close to someone and you could catch it!

 

As someone said, this is basically sounding like Barry will be fucking up and the show will just blame it all on Oliver and his darkness infecting him. 

[Mellowyellow]

7 hours ago, Featherhat said:

And Oliver not remembering if he'd slept with a reporter in S2 was just dumb, he hadn't slept with that many women since he'd come back that he couldn't remember even if it was supposed to be between Isobel and Sara. That was a cheap "Comics Ollie" joke. 

My head canon says Oliver doesn't remember sleeping with people once he's got Felicity secured.

Like in S5 when he was acting all "Who is this Susan person? Never heard of her!" after he nabbed a date with Felicity.

Makes it more palatable.

[TrueMyth]

My head canon says that Oliver doesn't remember sleeping with her because he actually didn't, and she's still mad because he resisted her advances.

[tennisgurl]

it’s all really weird, as I have no idea why the crossover writers seem to think the audience would WANT to see Oliver get bashed over and over, especially after his last super depressing prison arc. It’s like kicking the poor guy while he’s already down. 

[tv echo]

It's such a double standard. If Oliver had acted selfishly and in the process wiped out of existence Barry's daughter, then he'd be portrayed as the dark villain of the Arrowverse. Yet Barry wiped out Baby Sara Diggle from existence and he's still the pure hero.

[formerlyfreedom]

Please remember this is the place to discuss bitterness over Arrow - not the crossover in general. No posts have been removed, but may be going forward.

[Morrigan2575]

Brought over from the News & Media thread.

Quote

The flash forward scenes on Arrow and how they will most likely prevent a happy ending.

I'm hating the flash forward scenes on Arrow this season. Like is this a possible future we have a chance of "fixing"? Because if not, that means all the years of watching this show, hoping that one day when it ends Oliver and Felicity will get a satisfying ending after all they've been through, is never going to happen. And if that's the case, why the hell are we still watching?

I started thinking about this and trying to figure out why it's such a bad storyline and, I think I finally figured it out.  I was comparing this to Batman Beyond and the New Star Wars Trilogy. Both shows are set 20+ years into rather bleak futures.

In Batman Beyond Bruce Wayne is a lonely old man, everyone has left him and he can't be Batman anymore. It's rather sad, he sits alone in his mansion until Terry Maginnis comes into his life and becomes the New Batman with Bruce acting as Alfred/Overwatch.  Future Bruce is alone, Future Barbara gave up being Batgirl/Oracle and is now a Cop. I don't remember what happened to Nightwing, think he might have died.

With the New Star Wars trilogy (excluding TLJ which i disliked), the HEA in Return of the Jedi was washed away, Luke ended up a hermit, Han/Leia broke up, the Empire was destroyed but the New Order took it's place and the New Republic practiced appeasement hoping they wouldn't have to fight.

In both cases these shows/movies took something I loved and made it rather sad/depressing and yet I loved Batman Beyond and loved TFA and still have hope for JJ with Episode IX.

i was trying to think why almost everyone (media, various fan bases) seem to hate the Flash Forwards when it does work in other cases.

Could it be as simple as timing? Both cases (above) pulled from the same fan bases but, Arrow is actually showing us IN Show how shitty the future is which makes it feel totally futile.

I wonder if that never occurred to Beth? That this storyline could work in a sequel or post Arrow spin-off but, not as a continuing storyline within Arrow?

[apinknightmare]

8 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Could it be as simple as timing? Both cases (above) pulled from the same fan bases but, Arrow is actually showing us IN Show how shitty the future is which makes it feel totally futile.

Yeah, this is my issue. What on earth do I have to root for when I already know how terribly it turns out? O/F are estranged from William, the city is a garbage fire, everything they're doing right now is for nothing. JH attempted to save it by saying that there's still a happy ending possible in the future, but who cares? We still know they don't get much happiness between now and whenever things go to shit, and they've also managed to take any kind of urgency out of the present with regards to whoever they show alive 20 years from now. They aren't even dropping breadcrumbs that we can follow to figure things out - they're just giving us dots with no way to connect them, probably because the main purpose of the FFs isn't to give us a plot to figure out, they're just constructed for "shock" value (whenever they get around to revealing how things ACTUALLY are). 

[way2interested]

8 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

In both cases these shows/movies took something I loved and made it rather sad/depressing and yet I loved Batman Beyond and loved TFA and still have hope for JJ with Episode IX.

i was trying to think why almost everyone (media, various fan bases) seem to hate the Flash Forwards when it does work in other cases.

Could it be as simple as timing? Both cases (above) pulled from the same fan bases but, Arrow is actually showing us IN Show how shitty the future is which makes it feel totally futile.

I wonder if that never occurred to Beth? That this storyline could work in a sequel or post Arrow spin-off but, not as a continuing storyline within Arrow?

TLJ aside (which I majorly disliked as well and actually have similar complaints with the new trilogy now that others have at the FF that I didn't have with TFA lol), I think what those two have that are different from Arrow isn't necessarily the showing aspect but that s7 and beyond is still going while the FF are happening, while BTAS and the original trilogy were over and done. So for BB and Star Wars, it's more of a continuing storyline while Arrow's going for a parallel storyline that they already did with the flashbacks, but the problem is that FF can't be used as easily for parallels as flashbacks and it seems that the writers aren't looking at the FF as a continuing of the present storyline rather than a parallel. Then, it's just messy to follow the present storyline when even at the end of a hypothetical s8, s9, s10 there's still story to follow beyond everything. 

With that last thought though I wonder how this would be perceived if it was an Arrow Beyond instead of just FF. 

[calliope1975]

For me, with the new Star Wars, even though it's a bit of a bummer that there's still a need for a rebellion, and that space nazi's are still ruining the galaxy, it was nice to revisit characters I've loved for 30+ years. Nostalgia's a hell of a drug. A big problem I had with Gotham (which I've heard is good) is that I had no desire to see baby Bats grow up knowing his city will still be a garbage fire by the time he reaches adulthood. I wasn't interested in watching that journey. With Arrow's FF'd, a huge part of the fail for me is they're building it on a character I've quickly grown to despise, one I'm indifferent on, one I could love depending on a few factors, and Roy, who I do love, but not really in this context. 
 

Maybe Beth can pull this out by the end of the season, but I have a feeling I'll be befuzzled trying to make all the probable plot holes make sense and wondering why so much time was wasted.  

[insomniadreams88]

Also think of it this way. Say we take the FFs at face value and pretend Dinah’s telling the truth and Felicity’s dead. They’re acting like Oliver is probably dead too. So if there is a happy ending, it’s for ... Dinah? A character I can’t stand at all? Am I supposed to care about that?

The FFs make me bitter because every episode with them they keep acting like Felicity was totally evil (and is definitely dead) and I wish Roy and William would keep questioning that but they just don’t. I was happy to get Roy back but honestly? Not like this. And I feel like I’m not supposed to only like one character (Black Star) so far in the FFs, especially not one not in the present, but that’s where I am. 

There’s keeping a mystery and then there’s just misery. This is the latter. 

[AudienceofOne]

Maybe Oliver and Felicity faked their deaths and are currently sipping Mai Tai's while taking down tin pot dictators on a tropical island somewhere. They couldn't contact William because of [insert reason that involves protecting him] but left breadcrumbs so he'd know they're safe and happy and loved him. 

[Mary0360]

4 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

Maybe Beth can pull this out by the end of the season, but I have a feeling I'll be befuzzled trying to make all the probable plot holes make sense and wondering why so much time was wasted.  

The flash forwards just seem like a giant waste of plot and a cheap ploy for a buzz grab by the writers trying to keep the show running when they are clearly running out of story ideas. I mean if we are to believe that everything in the FF is one giant misdirect then what's the point? Like we are going to waste multiple episodes exploring the "Felicity is out to destroy Star City" except oops not really. Like we are going to waste multiple episodes on the "Who is Maya/BlackStar?" mystery only to maybe discover oops she Oliver and Felicitys kid, then we are going to have to waste multiple episodes coming up with some convuluted reasoning of why Maya is Oliver and Felicitys kid despite nobody, including her brother, knowing her, even though there's absolutely no reason for there to be any mystery over whether she's their kid or not except to drag out a pointless storyline to fill airtime.

Same with multiple episodes wasted trying to sell "Felicity and Oliver are dead" except oops no their not. So again instead of spending the flash forwards exploring Oliver and Felicity and Team Arrow dealing with Star City's new reality we are wasting time on a storyline that will amount to nothing but a gotcha! Moment.... even though basically everybody already assumes Oliver and Felicity aren't dead. And all of this with the focus on the least interesting and most uncharismatic bunch of "actors".

And unless the running plot in the present (Diaz/NGA/Those villain trio whose names I've forgotten and don't care about) is directly tied to the future which seems unlikely considering the Flash Forwards are suppose to remain the rest of the series it like watching a whole seperate show that doesn't really seem to have anything to do with the other show Arrow, only with characters I hate and/or are indifferent to. 

And if this is all done to set up next years crossover then I totally resent that I'm forced to sit through a double dose of Dinah, a double  dose of Arrow plot logic and shitting on Felicity's character just for the sake of the crisis storyline or whatever, while Flash and Supergirl don't seem to be suffering the same. 

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

In Batman Beyond Bruce Wayne is a lonely old man, everyone has left him and he can't be Batman anymore. It's rather sad, he sits alone in his mansion until Terry Maginnis comes into his life and becomes the New Batman with Bruce acting as Alfred/Overwatch.  Future Bruce is alone, Future Barbara gave up being Batgirl/Oracle and is now a Cop. I don't remember what happened to Nightwing, think he might have died.

With the New Star Wars trilogy (excluding TLJ which i disliked), the HEA in Return of the Jedi was washed away, Luke ended up a hermit, Han/Leia broke up, the Empire was destroyed but the New Order took it's place and the New Republic practiced appeasement hoping they wouldn't have to fight.

In both cases these shows/movies took something I loved and made it rather sad/depressing and yet I loved Batman Beyond and loved TFA and still have hope for JJ with Episode IX.

For me, I actually could never get past the misery of where Batman Beyond left the characters I cared about.  I tried to watch and think of it as an Elsewords or a possible future, not a set reality for the year I watched but I just couldn't bring myself to go back after the hiatus.  It was ruining all the current day Batman stuff for me knowing it was supposedly all for naught.

I wasn't thrilled with the failed lives in Star Wars but  that franchise because the actors were aging could only go forward with new characters.  So while I'd have rather learned all the original characters lived happily ever after, it made sense to me that they'd serve the new character's stories even if it meant a lot of rocky history. 

 I think the nature of the Batman universe not having to bow to aging players since comics are immortal and ever new franchise can recast, made me resent the storyline that sacrificed the lives and histories of favorite characters for someone new all the more because it was just a narrative choice, not a necessity.  And I feel what the FF's are doing with Arrow fall into that category as well.  It does seem the FF's are only there for shock value because so far the next generation are still not taking the lead, that falls to Dinah and Roy and yes William, but he's following around Dinah and Roy. And the big mystery is what is Felicity up to. 

The focus remains on our existing cast.  So the FF's and their misery can't justified as being needed to serve the next generation that must take over the show and there was nothing that made them do the FF except the narrative choice but again, I can't see what benefit it really serves except as a negative hype for stoking current day fears.  Except in order to do that, they have made the set future worse than anything that might possibly happen in the present.  Or we've just been completely mislead and as pointed out and thus were wasting our time. 

I think the other reason I'm not happy about the FF is that if they'd been in some reboot, I would have had the choice to start watching it again or not.  If I hadn't liked the sound of them, I probably wouldn't have watched. And thus in my mind at least, whatever ending Arrow would have giving us would continue to be preserved.  I could consign a reboot to that Elseworld realm if I so chose to think of it that way. 

But the FF on Arrow are happening during the regular run. They could mean there's no possible way for a ending I'd find satisfying and the show hasn't even finished yet. 

Unless the plan is to undo the set future in next year's crossover but I still am back to it having all been a waste of time then.     

[Angel12d]

I think the flashforwards could've potentially been interesting to watch if they'd handled them properly but as with most things Arrow, they did not.

If they'd based them around OTA's kids getting together to uncover some mystery of where their parents had gone and learning about their parents lives from 20 plus years previously along the way, I think I would have enjoyed that, mostly. The city wouldn't have needed to be a dumpster fire, Felicity wouldn't be vilified and not everything would be depressing and bleak. AND it would've been around characters I actually care about and am invested in.

As it stands, I'm wondering what the hell Beth was even thinking tbh. The city has gone to shit, making everything the team are currently doing (and have done for 6 years) completely pointless. I couldn't care less about Rene's daughter Zoe so IDK why she's there. Dinah has quickly become a character I truly despise so all this focus on her is super annoying, even though I know logically she's only there to drop info. And even though I like Roy and young William, I can't say I'm all that interested in watching them shade Oliver and Felicity all the damn time, for things we've not even seen them do, all in the name of misdirects and keeping the mystery going.

As for Maya, I've been doubting she's even Olicity's daughter (wouldn't shock me if she's Roy and Thea's) but even if she is, how they're gonna explain her own brother not knowing her is something I don't even want to think about. Every scenario just seems awful and depressing and bums me out.

I'm just not sure what any of this really adds to the show or story tbh.

Edited December 30, 2018 by Angel12d

[JamieLynn832002]

8 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Unless the plan is to undo the set future in next year's crossover but I still am back to it having all been a waste of time then. 

Yeah, it seems to come down to either everything Team Arrow is doing now is pointless/will end in heartbreak or the this future is somehow averted so the time spent watching characters I don't care about/hate (I care about present Roy and William but not so much the future versions) deal with it is a waste of time. Neither seems like a good option and I really won't see another one because even if Oliver and Felicity are actually alive and well in the future, the city they worked desperately to save for years still went to absolute shit. I definitely feel like the went for the shock value of the flashforwards without completely thinking through the immediate or ultimate results.

[insomniadreams88]

I think another problem is that I don’t like most of the characters in the present either. And the two I do like are obviously going to be MIA from the FFs for awhile. So I’m stuck disliking characters in the present, especially because of how they’re treating Felicity, and then we go to the FFs, where characters are just constantly trashing Felicity (and Oliver). 

[apinknightmare]

21 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Unless the plan is to undo the set future in next year's crossover but I still am back to it having all been a waste of time then.     

I don't think that was the plan going in, but I'm wondering now if they'll use next year's crossover to undo/redo the future timeline just because the reaction to it now is so universally negative.