Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[SmallScreenDiva]

OK, I must have missed something because the whole reasoning Felicity gave while apologizing to Oliver for her spiral was because of her grief over Billy. Was there another quote or scene explaining her motivations? 

[leopardprint]

@SmallScreenDiva, I think people are referring to her speech to Oliver in 519 when she said she wouldn't let him sacrifice his soul or something and she would do it this time. 

Edited June 13, 2017 by leopardprint

[lemotomato]

37 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

OK, I must have missed something because the whole reasoning Felicity gave while apologizing to Oliver for her spiral was because of her grief over Billy. Was there another quote or scene explaining her motivations? 

The only time Felicity mentioned Billy during her dark arc was in 520, an episode Wendy Mericle wrote. But the way it played out on screen between 511-519, we saw that she was motivated by wanting to clear Digg's name, wanting to find Susan, wanting to find Oliver, wanting to ease Oliver's burden, wanting to stop Chase from hurting other people. I give more weight to what we saw than one rushed line in a speech that didn't make a whole lot of sense to me overall.

[LeighAn]

44 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

The only time Felicity mentioned Billy during her dark arc was in 520, an episode Wendy Mericle wrote. But the way it played out on screen between 511-519, we saw that she was motivated by wanting to clear Digg's name, wanting to find Susan, wanting to find Oliver, wanting to ease Oliver's burden, wanting to stop Chase from hurting other people. I give more weight to what we saw than one rushed line in a speech that didn't make a whole lot of sense to me overall.

I'd like this twice if I could

[Midnight Lullaby]

2 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

OK, I must have missed something because the whole reasoning Felicity gave while apologizing to Oliver for her spiral was because of her grief over Billy. Was there another quote or scene explaining her motivations? 

Billy's death was the motivation they used for Felicity acting differently than from the past..taking more risks, going against the team..most of the things she did she would have done the years before too but they said losing Billy is what made her go a bit too far essentially. It was very poorly done and if I look at it as a whole it was all to get to a point where she could tell Oliver that she understands being in a dark place can lead you to do wrong things so meh.

[Midnight Lullaby]

At this point I'm not even bitter..I'm a bit sad because I loved the show and now I don't feel it anymore..I miss the excitement I had in the past.

I think if this was a first season it wouldn't have been bad but it isn't so I judge it as a 5th season. I'm bored of Oliver being dumb for plot, I'm bored of interchangeable masks going from 0 to 100 and Felicity and Diggle being sidelined. There was the cherry on top this year too that was the 100th episode that I don't even know what it celebrated (what the show could have been?) since it didn't even follow any type of logic to make me understand what was the point of it. It's nothing new but while in the past it didn't ruin my enjoyment of the show this year it did because I'm tired of the same things every year.

I watched all the episodes but if I had to say what happened I would have troubles recalling most of the season. I was bored quite a bit during the first half and I think being unable to connect with Oliver made the difference in negative this year. I'm just tired of the way they are writing him. He can't be competent at a job, he has to do stupid choices, he has to brood and push people away because he thinks he doesn't deserve anything..at least in season 2-3 he made a plan against the bad guy..this year Chase had to tell him when he kidnapped people and Oliver did everything he wanted him to do. I'd find Oliver more interesting if he was allowed to grow after 5 years, to prove he isn't dumb but the writers would have to find another way to move the plot forward so..

I think if in the finale they gave a big role to Felicity and Dig I could have seen it all in a more positive light but it was the first year Felicity had nothing to do, Dig even less and masks were everywhere. What made Arrow special for me were the original characters so that's the main reason I lost interest in the show.

[SmallScreenDiva]

11 hours ago, lemotomato said:

The only time Felicity mentioned Billy during her dark arc was in 520, an episode Wendy Mericle wrote. But the way it played out on screen between 511-519, we saw that she was motivated by wanting to clear Digg's name, wanting to find Susan, wanting to find Oliver, wanting to ease Oliver's burden, wanting to stop Chase from hurting other people. I give more weight to what we saw than one rushed line in a speech that didn't make a whole lot of sense to me overall.

I took those as what kept pushing Felicity farther into her dark-ish arc, but Billy was the catalyst Arrow used, the initial motivation for her suddenly going (mildly) rogue. What this tells me, though, is that if Arrow had done a better job telling Felicity's arc, giving her a stated, articulated POV then there won't be confusion as to why she did what she did. 

Edited June 13, 2017 by SmallScreenDiva

[way2interested]

32 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I took those as what kept pushing Felicity farther into her dark-ish arc, but Billy was the catalyst Arrow used, the initial motivation for her suddenly going (mildly) rogue. What this tells me, though, is that if Arrow had done a better job telling Felicity's arc, giving her a stated, articulated POV then there won't be confusion as to why she did what she did. 

You can take it your way, and I see Billy as the catalyst, but to me catalyst/initial driver doesn't equal complete or even the largest motivation. In 510 it could have possibly been the largest since Oliver attributes to how she was acting to wanting to get justice for Billy (which she doesn't even comment on, Oliver's the only one who says/thinks that and then Felicity accepts his promise to help get justice for Billy's death), but beyond that the show had different reasons building on themselves, plus just from the acting/execution other ones that I think could have been implied. It just struck me not as "this is the reason why she's doing these thing" but more of a "after this happened, now she is going down this way of thinking and that's why she's doing these things," which is also what they said in 519/520 (with Oliver and Felicity bringing up Felicity "becoming like Oliver").

I think they did a better time this time around on giving Felicity a voice in her own arc (compared to s3, which gave her no real thoughts on what was going on) and did it in a more connected way in which to an extent why she was doing things and subsequent reactions to how the story was progressing made sense (compared to s4, which jumped all around). This time around I think it was not that I needed a stated straightforward POV (because, tbh, showing not telling is always better and the show did more showing Felicity's feelings/motivation through dialogue and actions than telling to its credit) but just a clarification on what about Billy's death became a catalyst. Even 520 just said "after Billy died, this happened" and that was where the catalyst was left. I could have done with a more reactionary clarification like "because someone who was innocent died," "because someone who was only connected to this through me died," "because someone who cared about me a lot more than I did him was killed by one of our annual big bads," "because I felt alone after someone I knew died pretty much only because they were connected to me/Oliver," or how I saw it, "because someone we couldn't stop initially through our normal methods of crime-fighting was able to manipulate someone I care about into murdering an innocent person who I actually knew and that someone is still out there on the loose."

Although, I guess it's a to each one's own. I liked the arc and my biggest gripe was just that 513-515 didn't really connect with it other than to show that Felicity was kind of becoming attached to Helix and that they should have gone a bit further in how "dark" she was going, but I at least liked the basic story of what they were doing.  

[kismet]

It's hard to feel bitter about the show, when it has left me with so much apathy at this point. I haven't even gotten back to watching the first 30 or so min of the season finale. I heard MM finally dies and even that is not making me want to tune in.

I remember seeing a TVline headline about who died and who they thought survived the big dramatic finale. And my first response was do I even care? And then my next response was ME. Myself and likely tons of fans are the ultimate cliffhanger. Will we come back? Will we walk away? Does it matter who they kill or save? At what point has the show proven itself to repetitive, predictable and likely unsalvageable, that it is best to cut your losses.

I don't generally drop shows that I have invested so much time & energy in... but I guess there is a time and place for everything. Looking back on s5, I can't say that there is anything that really encouraged me to stay. I was bored and tired with their games. I loved Oliver and his journey, but that is not what the show is about anymore. I loved OTA and how I could never choose who was the most important member. I loved Quentin & Thea, and how they made the show feel like a family. I miss Moira, Tommy and likely Malcolm now. I miss quality characters and good storylines. I could care less about the newbies and the writers' obsession with plot.

As for Myson, Susan and every other way they tried to bring excitement to the show, well they were good ideas with poor execution. Tons of shows have done them better. It's no surprise that Arrow tried and failed. They have been failing for 3 seasons now. It no longer just bad choices, it's systemic bad writing.

Ultimately, that is fate of Arrow. It will always be a show with good ideas and poor execution. I no longer expected it to be anything more than a once promising show that caves into it's worse tendencies time and time again. I used to hope it would live up to it's potential. I know now that is a ridiculous pipe dream. It will never be the show I want it to be. And while in the past, I could have dealt with that - I'm not sure I can anymore. I can't think of my favorite moment in s5. I can't think of any episode that I want to relive and rewatch. And that is perhaps the most telling reality. I think the show needs new showrunners and writers. I think it needs to reconnect with what made it so special instead of whatever it is trying to connect to now.

I know I am not that target audience. I know Marc & Co do not care if I ever tune into another Arrow related show. But it would be nice to think that somewhere in the Flarrowverse, good characters and good stories actually matter. That somewhere there remains hope that Arrow can return to what made it amazing. I'm bitter that even for all my apathy I cannot let go of that small tiny fragment of hope.

[leopardprint]

4 hours ago, leopardprint said:

What was the adult conversation they had in 520? No, really, what was it? Because Oliver told Felicity he didn't trust himself then later she apologized for being a hypocrite about Helix. How is that addressing anything that happened in 415? There wasn't even any back and forth dialogue. 

Posted this in the spoilers thread but it really should be here. I never really liked the conversation in 520 and the subsequent "reconciliation" but MG's recent comments about Felicity going dark in order to better understand Oliver really aggravated me (again). I think the whole retcon of the breakup going from Oliver lying to Felicity about having a child to it being about Felicity hastily breaking up with him because of not understanding why Oliver had to lie to her (?) is some grade A bullshit. She has never been shown to lack understanding or empathy towards Oliver. The other thing that really bothers me is that Felicity did all the emotional work in the getting back together. She had to understand him, he never attempted to explain himself to her beyond "Samantha made me" which went poof as a reason because now it's he lied because he doesn't trust himself!?  In the 520 flashback, Felicity tells Oliver that if she knew why then maybe they can get back together but she doesn't think even he knows and he responds that he's not going anywhere, so he's basically still just waiting her out. Then she says she's not ready to hear out Oliver (who is willing to explain that he lied to her because he doesn't trust himself?). At no point was he ever shown working on this or thinking this until Chase tortures him into believing he likes killing and therefore doesn't trust himself which made him lie to Felicity. But that's all fine going forward because Felicity now truly understands why he just had to lie. Poor, misunderstood, lying liar Oliver. 

ETA: Also, I forgot to add that I have issues calling that an adult conversation because there was nothing mutual about it. It was Felicity doing all the work, peptalking Oliver, explaining Oliver to himself, apologizing to Oliver for not understanding. Ugh. And with the events of 523, I am pretty sure that it will never be mentioned again. 

If Oliver has trust issues, that's on him to fix them, not for Felicity to be like "My bad for dumping you for lying, it was totes so crazy of me to have expected basic honesty from my fiancé."  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Edited June 23, 2017 by leopardprint

[tangerine95]

I'm not exactly happy with how everything played out in the break up or the aftermath but I don't think they made it about Felicity being the one to blame or being in the wrong and Oliver was right to lie.They definitely made it a mess and could never settle on why exactly he lied and kept changing up the reasons but I felt like it was pretty clear that Oliver regretted it and considered it a mistake.In season 4 after the break up he basically says it a few times like promising to never lie to her again in his vows or advising Digg not to lie to Lyla and make the same mistake he did.He never struck me as someone who considered himself in the right and I always got the sense he considered the break up his fault.

They did go overboard on having her apologize so much in 5.20  but I don't think she meant for breaking up with him and demanding honesty in a relationship.I took it as she means for not talking it out which tho understandable I can see why she would apologize.And I didn't take her saying she understands to mean she gets that he couldn't tell her about the kid but rather that she gets after her "dark" storyline how easy its to slip up and make mistakes when decisions are coming from a place of trauma you've been through.I wish it had all been much better written and made more sense but it's arrow lol.

I agree Felicity did most of the emotional work on getting back together but that's kinda how they set it up since she had to be the one to forgive him and I think they consider his big gesture of fighting for her to be basically all of 4.16.They could have made it a whole storyline of him figuring out why he lied and I would have preferred that but pacing was never their strong point so I'm not even surprised it took so long. 

[Morrigan2575]

Great post ??????

[leopardprint]

8 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

And I didn't take her saying she understands to mean she gets that he couldn't tell her about the kid but rather that she gets after her "dark" storyline how easy its to slip up and make mistakes when decisions are coming from a place of trauma you've been through.I wish it had all been much better written and made more sense but it's arrow lol.

But again, that's on Oliver to confront and deal with himself, not for her to say she understands. The EPs never talk about anything from his end, that he needs to learn to trust himself and others. In fact, I can't even recall them saying he was wrong to lie, only SA has ever said that. Why doesn't Oliver have to understand why she left and didn't want to talk to him? So, I agree they didn't care to spend too much time on it but also they intentionally and deliberately put culpability and responsibility on Felicity. 

[LeighAn]

20 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I'm not exactly happy with how everything played out in the break up or the aftermath but I don't think they made it about Felicity being the one to blame or being in the wrong and Oliver was right to lie.They definitely made it a mess and could never settle on why exactly he lied and kept changing up the reasons but I felt like it was pretty clear that Oliver regretted it and considered it a mistake.In season 4 after the break up he basically says it a few times like promising to never lie to her again in his vows or advising Digg not to lie to Lyla and make the same mistake he did.He never struck me as someone who considered himself in the right and I always got the sense he considered the break up his fault.

They did go overboard on having her apologize so much in 5.20  but I don't think she meant for breaking up with him and demanding honesty in a relationship.I took it as she means for not talking it out which tho understandable I can see why she would apologize.And I didn't take her saying she understands to mean she gets that he couldn't tell her about the kid but rather that she gets after her "dark" storyline how easy its to slip up and make mistakes when decisions are coming from a place of trauma you've been through.I wish it had all been much better written and made more sense but it's arrow lol.

I agree Felicity did most of the emotional work on getting back together but that's kinda how they set it up since she had to be the one to forgive him and I think they consider his big gesture of fighting for her to be basically all of 4.16.They could have made it a whole storyline of him figuring out why he lied and I would have preferred that but pacing was never their strong point so I'm not even surprised it took so long. 

 

11 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Great post ??????

Seconded.

 

The only thing I'd add is that Oliver said on at least two or three occasions in explicit words that it was his fault that he lost Felicity. Particularly when urging Diggle not to lie to Lyla about killing Andy.

[tangerine95]

17 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

But again, that's on Oliver to confront and deal with himself, not for her to say she understands. The EPs never talk about anything from his end, that he needs to learn to trust himself and others. In fact, I can't even recall them saying he was wrong to lie, only SA has ever said that. Why doesn't Oliver have to understand why she left and didn't want to talk to him? So, I agree they didn't care to spend too much time on it but also they intentionally and deliberately put culpability and responsibility on Felicity. 

I think he did tho.His moment of understanding why he lied was supposed to be when he tells her he doesn't trust himself,I think that's the answer she wanted him to find and she recognized that and offered him understanding.Now tbh it's kind of a reach to connect that to the baby mama drama,but that's what they went for especially since they made their issues not really about William but about Oliver's trust issues in general.

It was annoying that the EPs totally focused in interviews on what Felicity needs to understand and defended Oliver and imo that comes from the pretty big backlash against Oliver after 4.08 so they got defensive but on the show I don't think they made him to be in the right which matters more to me tbh.

I think he understood why she walked away,he never blamed her or got angry about that,not that we ever saw on screen.Felicity apologized but I don't even think he would have asked her to or expected it.And it makes sense to me that what he would take away from the whole helix thing is how hard it is to have the person you love push you away,hide things,make dangerous decisions and exclude you from their life.Again I wish it was better written and that they were better at talking about it in interviews but I think that's what they were mostly going for.

Edited June 23, 2017 by tangerine95

[Delphi]

This is off the current topic,  but I wanted the group to know that I was reading a book and read the line "Knew it in my bones" and immediately threw my book off the balcony.   It's fine. 

[Starfish35]

6 minutes ago, Delphi said:

This is off the current topic,  but I wanted the group to know that I was reading a book and read the line "Knew it in my bones" and immediately threw my book off the balcony.   It's fine. 

I literally laughed out loud. :)

[LeighAn]

My only problem with the execution of Olicitys storyline in S5 was that it fell to some of the same perils that Marc claimed season 4 fell to, where they tried to hit tentpoles within the season rather then letting the story developed longer. I think the same thing happened this season- Oliver and Felicity couldnt spend the season working or building their trust or communication because the writers wanted to save most of that for their final sweeps, they couldn't reunite until the finale because they wanted to have that as their big stakes moment in the finale, they had to date temporary love interest which don't add anything and undermine their storylines to justify the fact that they aren't together so they can build artificial suspense and surprise when they do reunite.

 

To me that's a pacing problem and not a problem with the characters themselves on the rare occasions last season where the characters were allowed to have real conversations and address their problems I feel the writing and the acting usually hit the mark. It was just few and far between.

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, Delphi said:

This is off the current topic,  but I wanted the group to know that I was reading a book and read the line "Knew it in my bones" and immediately threw my book off the balcony.   It's fine. 

Legit guffawed. That's fantastic and I'm so sorry. LOL

[statsgirl]

17 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

.And it makes sense to me that what he would take away from the whole helix thing is how hard it is to have the person you love push you away,hide things,make dangerous decisions and exclude you from their life.Again I wish it was better written and that they were better at talking about it in interviews but I think that's what they were mostly going for.

That makes sense, now that you say it.  It's unfortunate that in the interviews they continue to focus in having Felicity need to walk a mile in Oliver's shoes and ignore that he also had to walk in hers in order for them to see the situation mutually.

Sometimes the EPs are their own worst enemies in those interviews.

[millennium]

I bailed out of Season 5 after just a few episodes.   The new recruits storyline annoyed me, in part because it was uninteresting but also because it asked too much suspension of disbelief.   A hero who wears a hockey mask?  Wtf?  Has no one in Arrow world ever seen the Friday the 13th movies?  If you're a person in distress and you see some weirdo in a hockey mask coming at you, well, probably relief is not the emotion you'll feel.   Add to that Rene's generally unlikeable personality.   Artemis' bland, vanilla persona.  Curtis' forced quirkiness, parroting Felicity's early penchant for saying whatever she's thinking ...   The clobber-you-over-the-head diversity casting was also a bit much, as if somebody checked off a list ... black,  white, hispanic, jewish, gay, gay and married ...  Ragman was the only one I sort of liked, but just as a regular guy not as the hero.   If Oliver just fired them all I would cheer (but then he would probably be sued by the ACLU).

I came back to finish the season after it landed on Netflix because I had finished The 100 and there was little else to watch.   Overall the season was tiresome.   If I never hear the word Bratva again I would be okay with that.   Big Bad Prometheus had some interesting moments but was ultimately a letdown.  Best thing about him was Michael Dorn's voice.

In this season the ever-irksome flashbacks took on a bigger life and became a full-fledged parallel storyline, retconning Oliver's story in ways that seem contrived and phony.   The Anatoly guy is a terrible actor, so his recurring presence was not welcome.

And what would a season of Arrow be without at least one character swiped from Batman?   Lexa Doig's Talia had no mystique, no elegance.   Her rudimentary acting skills were better suited to playing Andromeda.   

I'm sick of Lance and his depressed drunkenness, his grief, his voice, his five o'clock shadow.   Get rid of him already.   He'd be better off with Laurel.

Way too much gunplay from so-called heroes.   Not good.

Best part of the season was the minimal Olicity.   I think those two really work better when they seem star-crossed.

Second best part was Dinah Drake.   Aside from the cheesy way she was shoehorned into the story, I think the character has potential.   I hope the writers don't squander it.

Third best was Dolph Lundgren.  Unlike Anatoly, who comes off like some schlub from central casting, Lundgren has a natural menace, is bigger than life, and is already established in the public's imagination as a big, bad Russian thanks to Rocky IV.

Special recognition to the return of Slade Wilson, Nyssa and Moira Queen.  Slade Wilson as played by Manu Bennett was one of the high points of this entire series.   I deeply regret that Bennett was not brought into the show as a regular cast member (not necessarily as Slade Wilson).   He adds real gravitas to what is otherwise a pretty flimsy and silly script.   Katrina Law as Nyssa brings the mystique so glaringly lacking in Lexa Doig's Talia.   And Moira Queen was a strong and very classy lady.  I miss her as part of the cast.

I give Season 5 a C minus.   The recruits and Bratva storylines did serious damage.   It would be nice to think they will be abandoned next season.   But I'm guessing they won't be.  Just like I know everyone didn't get blown up on Lian Yu (although I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the recruits being sacrificed).

One more pet peeve: How many times in this season did someone say "Can we have the room?"   It could be a new drinking game. 

Edited July 18, 2017 by millennium

[SmallScreenDiva]

13 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

MG says a lot of offensive things but because of the Helix storyline in S5, I don't feel too hostile towards him.

In general he has done a wonderful job with Felicity, especially the Felicity vs Lyla plot in 519 with the boys standing back and basically going "Oh shiiiiit what do we do."

For all the offensive things he says, Felicity has received wonderful character development. She is the driving force behind the Green Arrow and they really showcased that in 5B. 

For every 1 good thing Arrow does well with Felicity, I feel it does 3 things badly. I was very excited with Helix and while I was happy for the most part with 519 and 520 I absolutely hate that they made Felicity apologize and call herself a hypocrite. That used language used by Felicity haters and I feel like Guggenheim validated them by using it. (Was chatting about this with friends during drinks today and one of them noted that for all of Guggenheim's hatred for Trump, he does a lot of the same sexist, entitled white man crap). 

[Mellowyellow]

It's not perfect but it is a lot better than the other shows in Arrowverse. I guess I have a lower bar. 

I do feel in general that Felicity wields a significant amount of power over the Green Arrow and they highlighted that in 521. It's as good as I'm going to get so I take it! 

I expect to be irked at various times in S6 but for the most part they do OK, especially for a CW show. Even Madam Secretary which has Bess as the ultimate superhero does some pretty irritating things in regards to Henry (her husband who also has to be superhuman because they need to bring him up to her level).

[SmallScreenDiva]

I don't watch the other shows, and even if I did I wouldn't want to compare it that way. Sure Arrow has made it very clear how much impact Felicity has on the hero, but I want more from it. I expect better from the show. Which is rather foolish, I'm aware, given who's running things. Guggenheim is just a shitty show runner in general, IMO. 

[TrueMyth]

I was driving home, thinking about Arrow (as one does), and I suddenly started ranting to myself all over again about how it has treated torture and brainwashing. Prometheus did some horrible things to Oliver and the end is that he doubts himself... but the narrative wants to be edgy bringing up all the serial killer or vigilante thing, so it doesn't underscore if we are really supposed to believe what Oliver believes, that he likes killing, that he is a serial killer.

There are some serious missed opportunities with Oliver and his PTSD.  For example, I would have loved to see the therapist he confronted a while ago actually help him work through some issues.  It's been done well on other shows.  But that would give us too much insight and empathy with Oliver, so we'd never buy Prometheus's manipulation (not that I ever did, but I think the writers did want doubt in the viewers mind towards the end of season five).

And yet he was brainwashed by the LoA, who've apparently been doing this for centuries, and he not only manages to keep his head, but also to trick them.  I suppose the difference is in Oliver's preparation.  Malcolm probably helped him counteract drugs and be ready for most of the tortures.

Bah, it's late now and I should be sleeping instead of rage typing on the internet, but I needed to vent.  I think the show did a better job in early seasons showing that torture never really works.  People either die before giving up or they break and will tell you anything to make it stop.  No truth ever really comes from torture unless you are looking for discrete bits of information, and even then it is unreliable.

[Morrigan2575]

Brought over from Spec thread (no spoilers)

Quote

I can get forgetting the significance of a gas chamber 

Quote

  32 MINUTES AGO, BIJOUX SAID:

To be honest, I don't get forgetting the significance of a gas chamber, but I hope you're right here.

Sometimes people don't realize the optics of things when planning, even with 3 or 4 Jewish people in the Writers Room. You get wrapped up in the minutia or a plot point and can't see the big picture.

I always go back to Kate and Leopold where it was only after initial audience screenings did they realize that making Kate, Stuart's Ex-girlfriend and Leopold his great-great-grandson, means Stuart had sex with his great-great-grandmother. It never occured to anyone involved in the film because they were so focused on the cool plot point that Kate would end being the mystery ancester.  They also didn't understand why the audience focused on the Incest angel and not to romance/time travel stuff.  

I'd say Arrow's Felicity in a Gas chamber and that JLaw/Pratt movie Passengers are in the same boat. Writers get so wrapped up in some plot point they miss the ewwwww factor.

Edited September 30, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[kismet]

Forgetting about the optics and underestimating the EWWW factors are a major part of Flarrowverse writers/showrunners thing for good or for bad. I'm really surprised that they were able to eek about a few decent things at all. I know people get caught up in minutia, but I just don't think that is the driving force behind their writing failures. I think it runs far deeper.

[SmallScreenDiva]

17 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Well, I think 5b (overall)>>>4b and >>≥>>>>5a, but yeah it is pretty much just spin or already jumping the gun on overcompensating after feeling disappointed with the ending of s4. It's like the new s1&s2 were the best (if you forget about those episodes in the middle of s2 and that even Netflix reports that it takes quite a while for people to start getting into s1, but sure all of s1-s2 we're great)!

There were too many unwatchable episodes for me in S5, even in the back half, to consider it a good season. I was trying to recommend episodes to a friend who's interested in watching on Netflix and I think I came up with barely five titles. That's not good when a season has 23 episodes.

I was reading the TV Line interview with SA and he really didn't like being called a "wuss" by the comics crowd during S4, did he? Actually I think they repeatedly used a different word that also had the letters "uss" and ended with "y." Still complaining about Oliver being "too domesticated." Wow! That's their problem with S4, it wasn't that magic had no place in Arrow and it left the hero flailing around ... it was that he became domesticated. 

[way2interested]

1 minute ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

There were too many unwatchable episodes for me in S5, even in the back half, to consider it a good season. I was trying to recommend episodes to a friend who's interested in watching on Netflix and I think I came up with barely five titles. That's not good when a season has 23 episodes

I guess it's an opinion thing. I've got a bunch of unwatchable episodes from every season and overall recommended about 14-16 episodes to my friend who was catching up. I think every season has its high and lows but s5, like s2, is just getting an extra benefit of a bunch of people forgetting its own shortcomings, while S4 isn't.

[SmallScreenDiva]

2 hours ago, LeighAn said:

Theres only really one drastic difference and that was that Olicity were dating other people. So to me the whole Tagline "season 5 was the best ever" from the Reddit crowd reeks of ulterior motive. 

It's the "best ever" for them because Olicity was broken up and they really thought that was the end of it. That's pretty much the whole reason there. Which is why a lot of them are feeling betrayed right now over the wedding spoilers. 

3 hours ago, way2interested said:

I guess it's an opinion thing. I've got a bunch of unwatchable episodes from every season and overall recommended about 14-16 episodes to my friend who was catching up. I think every season has its high and lows but s5, like s2, is just getting an extra benefit of a bunch of people forgetting its own shortcomings, while S4 isn't.

Of course, it's an opinion thing :) But there's also a deliberate narrative being spun by different sides. It's all agenda. The CB/Reddit crowd loves S5 mostly I suspect because they saw it as "no" Olicity (even though there was). Some Olicity fans peg the "return" of Arrow to form from episodes 15 or 18 onwards because that's when the relationship moved to the forefront again. EPs and SA push the S5 is best spin because they want to be able to say they bounced back from the disappointing S4. 

And I agree, every season has highs and lows ... and some seasons look better after a few months of distance. That's what S3 looks like to me now. I've found myself enjoying more episodes. I still have difficulty with anything after the S4 crossovers because everything felt tainted by Oliver's lies. And S5 is still too raw and disappointing for me to do a rewatch or even look at it more objectively.

[LeighAn]

Speaks of season 5 I've literally just started a rewatch and omg I still crack up at the statue dedication scene where Oliver gives the moving speech and the serious music score plays and then they reveal that truly ugly hilariously terribad statue ? Most underrated comedic moment in Arrows series! 

[insomniadreams88]

1 minute ago, LeighAn said:

that truly ugly hilariously terribad statue

I still can’t believe that statue. I never liked Laurel and didn’t think she deserved a statue, but even I thought she deserved better than that. That’s how you know it was really, really bad. 

[tofutan]

My impression was that s5 got a lot of praise for Prometheus as a villain. I saw him brought up repeatedly as a positive example compared to the Supergirl and Flash villains/villain arcs that were going on at the same time. 

[tangerine95]

Yeah the statue was so bad.And they legit had it made so they can destroy it 9 episodes later by LL's evil version and right before they introduced their new BC lol

I don't buy in the hype about season 5 tbh,sounds a lot like people who don't like olicity trying to act like it was so amazing because olicity were broken up and had few moments until way later in the season.The villain was an improvement but for me it was mostly after he got revealed and because the actor was so good.His actual back story and motivation doesn't stand on its own without JS's performance elevating it.My biggest problem with season 5 was that it was for the most part emotionless and any emotion it allowed was connected mostly to new characters I had no connection to.Previous seasons had dumb plots and storylines too but I don't think they lost the emotional aspect for as long as season 5 did.

[way2interested]

22 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

And I agree, every season has highs and lows ... and some seasons look better after a few months of distance. That's what S3 looks like to me now. I've found myself enjoying more episodes. I still have difficulty with anything after the S4 crossovers because everything felt tainted by Oliver's lies. And S5 is still too raw and disappointing for me to do a rewatch or even look at it more objectively.

Oh, yeah, distance definitely helps to really objectify some of my feelings, and I think it helps overall as well. They way I kind of go back though is that s3 had a lot of moments/scenes that I rewatch, s4 had some great overall episodes (on their own, not necessarily in terms of the plot) that I rewatch, and s5 had an overall plot that I thought was more interesting (execution of certain emotional aspects aside), along with some nice moments and a handful of great episodes. It has a lot of bumps along the way, but I kind of like to think it's getting better in a 2 steps forward one step back kind of way. I don't care about narratives since I think they can taint what I might actually like (like a narrative going around was that 417 was the worst episode ever, some even pegging it as an all-time bad, and I was being swayed until I watched then a week or so later and still kept laughing, so I knew I was just following a narrative instead of listening to what I felt). All opinion, but I do hope the rawness wears off! I mean, 411 was one of my all-time favorites, and I'd hate for it to be difficult to watch!

[LeighAn]

The second most unintentional underrated hilariously comedic moment in Arrows series- the first appearance of Tiny Hands!!!!?

[Mellowyellow]

I can't watch S4. Everything good about it, everything cute that Oliver did blew up for me with BMD drama. I did not care for DD who was magical and odd and had the strangest motivation for being a villain! Bring down the end of the world with magic and build a new world with people in ill fitted clothing! In Star City! Gawd it was bizarre! 

The end of S5 saved it for me but the first half was just bloody boring with them trying to launch a bunch of unlikable masks that I could have told them were unlikeable for free! 

S3 was the BESTEST season ever. I stand by that and will always stand by that! I loved the pining, didn't mind that Ra's was a total weirdo (ancient dictators are often eccentric and crazy!), the triangle with Ray who was the perfect rival LI for Felicity. It made sense that he could compete with Oliver for Felicity's affections but not ultimately win. Not the lame lame lame pathetic Tiny Hands which made me think "WTF???"

Oliver was consistently stupid and caused himself all sorts of grief by being stupid but I didn't hate him because he moped and pined for my girl for the entire season. Felicity help build Ray's suit, ran team Arrow, worked with Dig to save Roy and then zoomed in at the end to save her man! That was an awesome season and the best season finale.

Hehe the ratings back me up too don't they =P

[Starfish35]

I hated season three mainly for killing my favorite character and then making her annoying sister into a pale pathetic imitation of her. (I will resent the "light inside you that Sara never had" comment forever.) But also it was really the start of moron!Oliver, which is ultimately what drove me away from the show.  

Honestly, I was so exhausted with the show that I wouldn't have continued with it after season three if it hadn't been for Sara's resurrection having already been spoiled.  But then season 4A gave me some hope that things might actually be better, only for them to be dashed with season 4B.  I just had no energy to put up with it for another year.

The thing is, I still love all the characters, less Oliver (and any character played by KC).  But unfortunately (for me) the show is still about Oliver, so.......:(

This makes it seem like I hate Oliver, and I actually really don't.  I just don't really like him that much either, and I don't have the energy to put up with all of his stupid choices that the narrative continually tries to justify.

Season three is the worst for me because there's only a couple of episodes out of the entire thing that I would want to rewatch - Secret Origin of Felicity Smoak, and Broken Arrow.  And maaaaaaaybe the Oliver/Thea island one.  Other than than, hard pass.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Starfish35

[Angel12d]

I'm kinda baffled that s1 and s2 are held in higher regard because there is not one season of this show that is amazing from start to finish. S2 is up there for such a solid start and ending but the middle was just...awful. But then I feel the same way about every season. They all have their good and bad episodes, though some more than others. 

That being said, s5 is the only season where I straight up disliked robot!Oliver the majority of the time. He was cold, emotionless, and I didn't see the Oliver I'd grown to love until at least 517. So they can claim that the other seasons were terrible but at least I didn't actively root for the villain like I did in s5. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited October 6, 2017 by Angel12d

[leopardprint]

1 hour ago, Angel12d said:

That being said, s5 is the only season where I straight up disliked robot!Oliver the majority of the time. He was cold, emotionless, and I didn't see the Oliver I'd grown to love until at least 517. So they can claim that the other seasons were terrible but at least I didn't actively root for the villain like I did in s5. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yes, I disliked S5 because A) a lot of it was boring and B) Oliver sucked so much and the conclusion of Oliver's weirdly circular emotional arc was stupid nonsense. It was like they compressed S1-S4 into S5. 

Also, I'm tired of Oliver needing to be told what to do pretty much every hour of the day. 

Edited October 6, 2017 by leopardprint

[Starfish35]

I actually do think seasons one and two were stronger seasons overall.  I think some of the cracks started showing in season 2B, but I don't personally think they had as many problems as seasons three and four.  (I can't really speak to season five because I've only seen four episodes, one of which was the crossover.)  

I think season one's glaring issue was the Laurel problem, but other than that, I think it had the best plotted season arc of all the seasons, from Moira getting into the limo with the mystery man at the end of the premiere episode, to the very end and the way the Undertaking played out.  Yes, there were some changes, but all for the better, with Diggle's and Felicity's role being expanded to Tommy's unexpected death.  (The only thing I wish they hadn't changed is that apparently Thea was supposed to have a larger role with investigating the Hosen and Oliver, and I wish they'd kept that.)

Season One also had smart!Oliver, and for me that's a big thing.  It also had some great characters like Moira that we've lost since then.  And the island flashbacks were the best they ever were - they only went downhill from there.

Season two was both better and worse.  The show was at its very best IMO in season 2A.  Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity were a fantastic team, we had the best BC (again IMO) dropping in and out, and there was minimal Laurel. 

But it was not perfect.  Laurel's addiction arc was poorly handled, and so was Moira's trial, and Slade developed an out-of-nowhere obsession with Shado that was too obviously only there to create a rift between him and Oliver.  

In my opinion, the season went downhill after Shado's death.  I had a hard time with the "choice" scenario, and Slade's motivation for going after Oliver.  Sara came back but her return wasn't handled well, and then was suddenly reversed at the end of the season.  Too much Laurel.  Oliver turning on his mother for keeping the secret about Malcolm being Thea's father was ridiculous and contrived.   And it was obvious some things hadn't been completely thought through, such as Oliver's suddenly remembering a cure several episodes after that would have been appropriate to bring up.  And then there was the infamous passing of the jacket scene that left me livid.  :(

Season three started off with the bombshell of Sara's death.  It also had the worst villain (IMO), and it had the whole stupid thing with Malcolm drugging Thea to kill Sara, and then Oliver working with him after that.  Ugh.  Ugh ugh ugh. 

Season four started pretty well, but they had the mess with Sara's resurrection and Diggle's brother.  And then it was all downhill after the mid-season finale.  Damian Dahrk's grand plan turned out to be ridiculous and way overreaching for this show.  Havenrock was a horrible idea. The flashbacks were deadly dull.  And the whole horrible mess with the BMD and never giving Felicity a POV on that, and the bad handling of Laurel's death (not the death itself, just how it was handled).  

So yeah, I agree that all the seasons have had issues.  I just think that the first couple of seasons had maybe less of them.   But as always, mileage may vary. :)

[leopardprint]

27 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

So yeah, I agree that all the seasons have had issues.  I just think that the first couple of seasons had maybe less of them.   But as always, mileage may vary. :)

I think a lot of it is just that the writers are so repetitive that flaws a viewer would let slide in earlier seasons are now insurmountably annoying the fifth time around. 

[Starfish35]

49 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

I think a lot of it is just that the writers are so repetitive that flaws a viewer would let slide in earlier seasons are now insurmountably annoying the fifth time around. 

Maybe.  But I do think they've made Oliver dumber (for plot) as the seasons have gone by, and the plot contrivances/plot holes have gotten worse.  But that's just my opinion.  

[Hiveminder]

7 hours ago, tofutan said:

My impression was that s5 got a lot of praise for Prometheus as a villain. I saw him brought up repeatedly as a positive example compared to the Supergirl and Flash villains/villain arcs that were going on at the same time. 

Which is hilarious, because Prometheus was a terrible, dumb villain. They are so lucky they had JS playing him. 

Dumb. Just the dumbest. 

[kismet]

On 10/6/2017 at 11:12 AM, tofutan said:

My impression was that s5 got a lot of praise for Prometheus as a villain. I saw him brought up repeatedly as a positive example compared to the Supergirl and Flash villains/villain arcs that were going on at the same time. 

Prometheus was the one and probably only good thing about season 5. I'm really bitter that the rest of the show has fallen so far from what it was and what it could be that even a really good villain for once is not enough to raise the season from the trash barrel where it belongs. 

[kismet]

On 10/6/2017 at 0:52 PM, Angel12d said:

I'm kinda baffled that s1 and s2 are held in higher regard because there is not one season of this show that is amazing from start to finish. S2 is up there for such a solid start and ending but the middle was just...awful. But then I feel the same way about every season. They all have their good and bad episodes, though some more than others. 

That being said, s5 is the only season where I straight up disliked robot!Oliver the majority of the time. He was cold, emotionless, and I didn't see the Oliver I'd grown to love until at least 517. So they can claim that the other seasons were terrible but at least I didn't actively root for the villain like I did in s5. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I think s1 & s2, do not have the baggage of being disappointed by s3-s5. I agree that none of the seasons were amazing from start to finish. I just think by the time your frustrations are growing in latter seasons, it gains momentum so you crave the less complicated emotional relationship you had in earlier seasons. I don't know what my honest opinion of s5 is without the shading my disappointments with aspects of s3 & s4 that carry over. It's almost impossible to be as objective as the latter seasons come through. I can be objective in analysis, but as a fan I carry some emotional baggage from earlier seasons. I didn't have that in s1 & s2. And sadly, Arrow has done little to ever address or make up for some of their missteps in earlier seasons. Or perhaps they did, but I am not the target audience or viewer they want back - so my criticisms and frustrations go unrepaired.

[kismet]

Tonight is really a bitter night for me. It is the season premiere and for the first time since ever I will not be watching Arrow's premiere. Nor will I be making active attempts to keep up with what is going on with the show. I will admit that I will likely follow the ratings, but that is only to see if other people have left along with me. Certainly not the ideal reason one follows ratings.

And it is making me rather bitter, because I truly miss and love what the show used to be. I feel like a bitter divorcee tonight. It's anger and a bit of longing for what used to be or what could have been. I have seen some of the rumours/spoilers

Spoiler

 

1. Michael Emerson. I'm really angry that they have nabbed Michael Emerson and my immense dislike of how the have ruined the arc of so many aspects of Arrow keep me from watching it. It's probably for the best, since even now my expectations of Michael Emerson are high - but the reality of the show will likely never meet or come close to meeting it. I am really sparing myself more hurt & frustration.

2. Olicity wedding. Something I've wanted for years, read the fan fictions, plotted out trajectories, spent countless time here discussing & theorizing about a wedding. It's really rather bittersweet that I won't be there for it. I won't see it. I guess all I'll see is the entertainment sites coverage. Again, it feels like I'm watching a former partner in pictures. I swear there is a boy band or country song that encapsulates this feeling, but I'm drawing a blank.

 

It's really rather hard not to see them on some entertainment sites. It's blasted in the headlines. And I've yet to eliminate a good portion of my Twitter feed, so the spoilers just rather flow there if I'm ever on - although I've significantly cut back on my Twitter for that reason. Now that Fall TV has picked up, I wonder what it will be like to be bombarded with Arrow but not involved with Arrow.

I loved Oliver's journey, his arc - and 5 seasons of dumbing him down for plot or d/t lack of proper writing ability has tarnished for me why I started watching the show. I understood his brokenness. I rooted for him to find his way back to whole. I rooted for him to be what I knew he could be. I defended him when his brokenness ruined his interpersonal relationships, as it does for so many in real life. There was a humanity and authenticity there that I responded to. S5 destroyed my reason for watching the show with how they treated OQ. I love OQ & I miss him. Along the way I fell in love with FS, Dig and OTA - but those too are not once they once were. I miss Tommy, Moira, and a well utilized MM. I miss interesting plots and motives. I miss the feeling Arrow used to give me. Sure, there have been a small handful of decent episodes in the crappiness of s3-s5, but that's not enough for me anymore.

So its 8:05p on Thurs night and I am typing in the Bitterness thread instead of the Live Thread and that makes me sad & bitter. I wish you all a good journey on s6. I hope that TPTB and Arrow does not disappoint you.

[kismet]

So I forgot that Arrow also moved it's time to 9p, so now I'm additionally bitter that I can't even live tweet Scandal without having to deal with Arrow on my Twitter feed. Looks like that massive unfollowing is going to start sooner than I thought :(

[DeadZeus]

Why did they remove the cool scene from the trailers where Oliver dodges a knife attack from behind... It was featured in MULTIPLE trailers and it looked rly good.

But it was completely removed.. And now Oliver is suddenly fighting that guy out of no where in the aired episode... It feels so off...
They did the same with the opening fight with Anarky, the trailer had a cool shot that was removed from the episode...

I don't understand why they would do this, it's literally a couple of seconds extra and featured in every trailer.

[SmallScreenDiva]

10 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Even worse, "He'll be directing four different episodes for us... and he'll also have a hand in all the episodes that he's not directing."

Sigh. One of the reasons why Arrow will never be good again. He's a mediocre director right now. Maybe he'll get better but at this point his episodes are, quite literally, nauseating. He's got no particular style unless you count shooting from below A LOT style. I was really hoping not to get reacquainted with the actors' nostrils.