Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[JamieLynn832002]

The Curtis situation is so weird, they took a character who largely worked in season 4 and somehow made him mostly intolerable. Part of it is definitely sticking him in a mask despite his seeming inability to fight but then they also doubled down on the jokey comic relief even when it made him look like a completely insensitive asshole. Season 4 Curtis made inappropriate jokes at times but I feel like he wouldn't have come up screaming "the plane, boss, the plane!" to two of his friends hugging immediately after one's father died in her place.  

[tennisgurl]

So, now that some time has passed since the last episode of the most recent scene, I'm trying to work out my issues with this season, even though it was, especially in the second half of the season, a much improved season on the last one, and had some of its best episodes yet in its final run, as well as some wonderful scenes and some nice character growth. There were some really big issues though, including...

1. Extraneous characters: Oh my God, everywhere you looked there were extraneous characters! You had WAY too much time with the newbies, most of whom took forever to be actually interesting or memorable. Curtis was (and is) annoying and useless, Rene was (and often still is) an annoying asshole, Dinah was all kinds of useless (still is, but she's gotten better) Evelyn was an annoying blank slate (who turned out to be an annoying EVIL blank slate) and Rory was awesome(and still is, but they got rid of him because he was too awesome), and all these guys made our actual main characters take a backseat to the antics of the newbies. And don't even get me started on Susan "The Pointless" Williams, who might be the worst love interest that Oliver has ever had. Ever. I'm still convinced they had a totally different idea for what they wanted to do with in the first part of the show, as opposed with what they did with her later. In the start, she was a sketchy, shoddy journalist who slept with a guy for information (clearly a major violation of journalistic ethics), but later we were supposed to feel bad for her when Thea screwed her over, and when she got her dumb ass kidnapped. She was a confusing, waste of a character, and she basically existed to be a plot device, and give Oliver a hot chick to flirt with until they get him back with Felicity.

2. Blood is Blood: This was a really weird one to me, and a continuation on issues I've had with the show before. Malcolm being given so much damn leeway because Theas biological dad is just ridiculous and I'm glad its over at least for now. All he did for her was teach her to fight because he realized he didn't wear a condom when he hooked up with Moira, but everyone acts like he and Thea have this great connection because of their biological connection. Personally, I've never understood why Malcolm being Theas dad was such a big deal to everyone. Moira and Robert were far from perfect, but they very much loved Thea, so it never made much sense to me why anyone cared that murder happy asshole Malcolm being her bio dad meant she should give him the time of day. You could say that Thea was looking for a father figure after the death of Robert, but they never got into that. It was just "who cares if Malcolm is a well known super villain and mass murderer of innocents who brainwashed Thea into killing her friend? He is Thea`s dad and that's all that matters!", and that was that. Did we forget that Malcolm did raise a kid, Tommy, who he ignored and treated like crap after his wife/Tommy's mom got murdered. Like, its amazing Tommy turned out so well with a dad who was too busy being a bitchy supervillain to be there for him after his mothers tragic murder. He sucks, and Thea is better off without him, but nobody (except, at times, Thea herself) ever says that. Malcolm did supposedly sacrifice himself in the end for Thea, but I never saw real affection between them beyond Malcolm's narcissism. This leads to Oliver and his Spawn, and how Spawn is, for some reason, the most important person in Oliver's life, despite not actually knowing the kid at all, and vice versa. That "my boy" might be one of the most embarrassing lines they have ever forced poor Stephen to say in the whole history of the show. Oliver knew that his arch enemy had kidnapped his sister, love of his life, comrades at arms, and his best friend, and that's all bad, but his SON? That makes him go OLIVER SMASH! and he proceeds to do exactly what Chase wants him to do, all because of this kid who neither he, nor the audience, knows anything about. That's what will break Oliver. Suuure. Yeah its his kid, and I will say that I can get him having a connection there, but more so than the people he knows in and out, and who have loved and supported him for years? Its like this show just decided that being biologically related to a person means that they can get away with anything, and they are now the most important relationships ever*.

3. Crossovers: Alright, this is more bitching about Flashpoint than anything else, but I'm still salty about Baby Sara, and how she was erased. It was such a mean, weird thing to change, and if they wanted to make Flashpoint affect the whole Arrowverse, it didn't really happen. It was just a wasted opportunity. I will stop now, because it will just turn into bitching about The Flash for a few years, but it just seemed like an awful way to treat a female character, even if she was just a baby than an actual character with a personality. We had time with her, and she was named after a beloved (at the time) deceased hero, and I got invested in her, and by erasing her, it just made her seem needlessly cruel to her poor parents. Also, while I think the Invasion stuff was pretty good, I think it was a bad idea to tie it into the shows big anniversary. It made the aliens seem random, and not tied into the Arrow mythology.

So, I cant say it was a bad season by any means (I would say it had the second best season in the Arrowverse, after LoT), but I needed to get those issues I have off of my chest.

*Alright, I know I've talked about this before, but I still find it hilarious that as this season of Arrow came to an end, I also saw Guardians of the Galaxy 2 in the theater, which was also a Superhero movie featuring complicated family issues, which is also something that Arrow often handles. What's funny is that

Spoiler

Guardians has basically the exact opposite lesson as Arrow did. While Arrow had a "blood family is the best family" vibe, the lesson of Guardians was that "sometimes the people you are biologically related to actually suck and your real family are the people who actually care about and love you, flaws and all, even if you aren't related. Or members of the same species", which is a lesson I like a lot more. Go figure.

[Morrigan2575]

On 6/3/2017 at 6:23 PM, JamieLynn832002 said:

The Curtis situation is so weird, they took a character who largely worked in season 4 and somehow made him mostly intolerable. Part of it is definitely sticking him in a mask despite his seeming inability to fight but then they also doubled down on the jokey comic relief even when it made him look like a completely insensitive asshole. Season 4 Curtis made inappropriate jokes at times but I feel like he wouldn't have come up screaming "the plane, boss, the plane!" to two of his friends hugging immediately after one's father died in her place.  

I loved Curtis in early season 4, that dimmed a little by the end of S4 since I felt he was a total Marty Stu. However, S5 made me hate Curtis he was beyond annoying and mostly pointless. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

They definitely went overboard with the awkward jokes but what annoys me most is that Felicity suddenly needs "help" from him when it's been established that when it comes to computers, she's the best. Let him be an engineer, if that's what he is. Let him build collars, balls, whatever. If they want him to do computer work, I want Felicity to specifically say it's grunt work she's giving him. They're dumbing her down basically to give him something to do.

The same way they're splitting the dialogue of 3 people -- Oliver, Felicity & Diggle -- just so Rene, Dinah and Curtis get to say something. If they're not needed in the scene, don't put them in the scene, writers! 

[ladylaw99]

That is the problem I had in season 5.  The newbies are not needed.  They add nothing to the team.  All they do is take away from the characters that are already established and that I have cared about for the last 5 years.

I will forever be bitter at these writers at adding all these new people when they already had OTA, Thea and Quinton.  You want to freshen things up, then try writing a better storyline, one that doesn't concentrate so much on plot.  Give me a good villain, maybe a female this year to change things up and I am not talking about BS - she is not strong enough to carry the weight of a good storyline.  To be honest I feel sorry for who ever they bring in as the next big bad, JS was great and will be a tough act to follow.

[MostlyC]

A quick, non-offical check in.  Season five:  Did you all survive?  Too butter?  Too bitter?

[calliope1975]

19 minutes ago, MostlyC said:

A quick, non-offical check in.  Season five:  Did you all survive?  Too butter?  Too bitter?

I'm butter. 5a was a hard struggle, but the last four or five episodes didn't make me want to punch my TV, so with Arrow, I consider that a success. 

[way2interested]

Bitter at Susan, the kid coming back in general, and Curtis' growing irrelevance, but literally everything else in 5b I was fine/indifferent/happy with.

[Balaclava]

I'm bitter butter, i can't stand the kid and the idea of having him in S6 makes my blood boil. Can they at least recast him?

5B was ok, mostly, but i still don't like any of the noobs and now Curtis gets on my nerves too 

What was the point of Susan??????

Did i mention i can't stand the kid? 

[insomniadreams88]

Bitter about Susan. Bitter about William (and how no one else seems to matter when he's around/mentioned). Bitter that I'll probably only ever willingly rewatch a handful of episodes from the entire season. Bitter that we didn't get nearly enough of the characters/relationships I care about all season because of the new characters. Still bitter about Rory leaving. Still bitter that they could have and should have spent time on Havenrock and how it affected Felicity and didn't. Still bitter about 513 and the 100th. May think of other things I'm bitter about later. 

[leopardprint]

Bitter about stupid, selfish Oliver. Bitter about pointless Susan. Bitter about minimal Diggle. Bitter about Felicity's apology. Bitter about Felicity barely having life outside the lair/mission. Bitter about useless rookies. Bitter about only fathers matter and only blood family matters. Bitter about Slade redemption arc. Bitter about Samantha/Myson. Bitter about lack of Thea. Bitter about pointless Susan. Bitter about Oliver only noticing the people around him when it directly affects him. Bitter about canonically badass female big bad reduced to assistant. 

Bitter, blackout rage of a million suns about Baby Sara. 

Edited June 11, 2017 by leopardprint

[Starfish35]

I'm....butter, I suppose.  As in indifferent.  I only watched four episodes total out of season five.  I have yet to make a decision on whether to catch up (it's in my Netflix queue but I keep finding other things to watch).  I can't quite cut my ties with fandom yet, but it's now spectator sport for me, watching from the outside.  I don't have any emotional investment anymore.  I guess that's kind of sad, for a show I was once super invested in.  :/

[apinknightmare]

I can't think of a more useless character than Susan. She didn't serve any function whatsoever as a reporter, all the potential storylines they set up by writing her as unethical and shady went nowhere, her relationship with Oliver didn't result in any kind of personal growth. If you removed her from the show nothing would've changed at all - Oliver could've gotten captured by Adrian after rescuing a stranger - because he surely treated Susan like one when he rescued her. So dumb. 

Bitter about her, bitter about William's reappearance, bitter that I wasted hours of my life watching most of 5A and some of 5B, butter about the rest of it.

Edited June 11, 2017 by apinknightmare

[tangerine95]

I'm mostly bitter that it feels like a wasted season to me.I mean they wasted so much time on irrelevant filler this season.The whole Susan thing that went literally nowhere,Billy who was only there to get killed ,the first half of the season wasted on introducing new characters that didn't really even have a storyline apart from being on the team or affected the plot much but they still got tons of screentime,the 100th episode wasted on dead guest stars and season one nostalgia,they wasted time stalling olicity for a season and a half when their actual relationship lasted only 15 episodes.Definitely bitter about William showing up again when the one good thing to come out of the BM storyline mess was them being sent away for good.

From 16 to 23  the show picked up imo so I'm still invested for season 6.

Edited June 11, 2017 by tangerine95

[Morrigan2575]

For the most part, I liked S5. There were things I didn't like but, that's the same with every season.

I liked the Helix stuff with Felicity. I liked the Thea/Lance stuff and Thea/Oliver stuff. I liked Rene and, I'm fine with Rene being a permanent part of Team Arrow, I think he actually fits in. I liked the lack of Malcolm Meryln and LL/BS/KC. I liked the added presence of Anatoly and Kovar (surprised at Dolph Lundgren). I didn't hate Billy, he served a purpose (2 actually) and I understand both purposes so he ended up being mostly innocuous. I loved Chase as a villain, Prometheus was OK but crazy ass psycho Chase was highly entertaining. I wish they stuck with the traditional episode 9 reveal because Chase worked more than Prometheus. I loved having Non-Mirakuru Slade back. I've always enjoyed the Slade/Oliver relationship and Snarky Slade so it was nice to see again. I liked that they finally "killed" Merlyn even if they didn't have the balls to show it. Sadly death on this show has lost any sense meaning. Good thing it's paired with SPN next season ?

 

I didnt like the abundance of masks and, still think the show suffers from bloat. I don't like Curtis, at all, anymore. I still don't understand Susan's purpose which makes her useless and makes me hate her. I thought they wasted Talia but, would love to see more of Talia/Nyssa.

 

All in all, more good than bad, IMO. I freely admit to liking 501-502 and 508-509 quite a bit and, think that 516-523 were pretty great episodes.

[LeighAn]

I feel like season five didn't have any more or less flaws then any other season, and that come season 6 some fans will take exception and umbrage to some storyline or other and will probably end up viewing season 5 through rose colored glasses like season 1,2,3 and 4 is veiwed through.

 

That being said I think the biggest thing I'm bitter about is that the writers didn't seem to learn what I thought was the biggest mistake of season 4 and that's that less is more in terms of Team Arrow- especially if you aren't going to use them effectively. Last season the team was too cluttered which made fight scenes clunky and uninteresting but at least you were emotionally invested in the characters to some extent. This season was much of the same but with all new characters that fans had no investment in and that too much time was wasted on those characters sacrificing time spent on the characters fans care about.

Conversations that could have been had between characters with established relationships that would have made sense were instead had with characters who'd only been around for five minutes. Tasks or functions with in the team and show that could have gone to characters with exsisting familiarity in that area but were instead given to the newbies so they could justify their exsistence.New isn't always better!

That being said the Team felt more cohesive by the end of 5B and they had toned down the focus on the newbies. So I feel more generous towards them by the end of the season then I felt for 90% of it.

 

Of course I'm bitter about the Olicity stall and the pointless third party love interests who went nowhere but thats bitterness at television networks fear of the moonlighting myth more so then the show. I was satisfied for the most part with where the Olicity relationship went and ended up by seasons end.

 

Im not as bitter about William as I am about reading about him constantly, especially considering he amounts to two and quarter episodes of 23 and probably less the three minutes in actual screen time. I feel like more energy has been spent worrying about and exaggerating his role in the show then the writers themselves put any energy into establishing him as a character or Olivers relationship with him. He was thematic prop not a character, and I guess I would have rather instead of spending time on Susan for instance who served no function except to show that Oliver can date other people to instead maybe spend time developing Willam as a flesh and blood character and developing the Oliver and Willams relationship as something the audience could relate to and invest in so that the finale had more impact. That being said I feel like Stephen Amells acting really packed the punch that the writing lacked in making you care at least about Olivers fear for and love for his son. The performance on the boat in the finale was top notched.

 

Im bitter about Wendys interviews and the fact that she talks out her ass. Wendy you're bad at interviews and all your comments about things that weren't actually happening on screen made fandom unpleasant this year. Please learn. 

 

Things I thing the season did successfully: I liked that they corrected one issue I had with last season and that's bringing Oliver back to the centre and making him an active player and showing him as the leader and the more seasoned pro. No more falling over his feet so that some less experienced instant gravy hero can come rescue him. The fights scenes were also better handled. I think Oliver had the best thought out and excited growth as a character this season and I like where they brought his character and hope it means there'll be less insecure repetitive brooding Oliver from here on out. 

 

I really enjoyed Felicitys solo storyline and seeing another element to her character pysche and she had some of the only newbies I enjoyed this season servicing her storyline and that's Rory and Alena. I'd gladly replace Curtis Dinah or Wildpuppy for those two. I do however think they could have spent more time on establishing what was driving Felicity to have such singular focus. I'd also have preferred that the writers weren't so afraid of muddying her hands and adding a little more black to her grey to give the story more of an edge. I would have liked to have seen her have more consequences of her actions weigh on her conscience. But for the most part I liked the path they had her on this year and that it was simmered through out the season to a boiling point rather then rushed through in a three episode arch.

 

I thought Prometheus was a melodramatic Villan but that Josh made him an interesting and entertaining one in the end and he and Stephen played off well with each other. I think he had more balls then Slade in terms of the extent he'd go to screw with Oliver. I do think the Chase reveal should have come sooner though and that pacing was off. Again another thing that was sacrificed for time spent finding a new tweety bird and giving Wildpuppy flashbacks even though people were asking for less of him not more.

 

In retrospect now that I can see the full picture I liked the journey they had with Olicity and things that frustrated me in 5A make sense after completing 5B. Again I feel the newbies sacrificed a lot of time that could have been spent clarifying Olicity and where Oliver and Felicitys head spaces were in regards to each other but I understand thematically what this season was in being a transitional season in getting them to a better more earned place and I appreciate that. But now bring on weddings babies shower sex wall sex ALL the sex dates romance love declarations domesticity all that good stuff (with in balance obviously).

 

Episodes I loved: 5x20, 5x19, 5x12, 5x15, 5x02, 5x10, 5x18

 

Episodes I hated and/or really disliked: 5x09, 5x05, 5x14 

 

Episodes that were just boring: 5x11, 5x01, 5x04, 5x21

 

Episodes I didn't watch: 5x13 5x17

[lemotomato]

I didn't like 75% of season 5, but I'm willing to forget it and move on because most of what I disliked ended up getting dropped/forgotten (Billy, Susan, Oliver killing again) or got better (the newbies, the Olicity reunion). I'm bitter about how the 100th episode concentrated on elements of the show I didn't care about so it was a waste of a milestone as far as I'm concerned. But I'm most bitter about how I had to put up with all the St. LL bullshit and retconning only for them to decide to bring KC back next season for no goddamn reason. "You know what would make this overcrowded cast better? Bringing back an actor that spent all her screentime mean mugging everyone the last time she was a regular" SAID NOBODY. 

[Angel12d]

I've still not seen every episode this season (though I have seen clips/scenes from most episodes) so I probably can't judge fairly or completely how I feel about the season as a whole. But the ones I did watch varied from awful to good, with only a couple in the latter category. I have no interest in re-watching any of s5 and I doubt I'll ever catch up on the ones I missed. I've felt both angry and then at times detached. Weird combo, I know.

I found Oliver pretty unbearable at times and very hard to root for, to the point where I was Team Prometheus for a while. I can't get to grips with robot!Oliver at all. I hope he never comes back.

It wasn't a major thing but I didn't really like the focus on Saint Laurel's legacy in the early part of s5. Every time they mentioned her it felt like they were talking about someone else, not the Laurel I watched for 4 seasons. I still don't really know what her legacy was tbh. Was it just the BC name? Because that's really Sara's legacy. Just IMO.

The 100th episode was awful and I actually felt insulted as a long term fan. Aliens and Lauriver and very little Felicity? GTFO. (The only moments I appreciated were Oliver hugging his parents, though as usual anything with Moira just works for me. The rest? Burn it. Delete forever.)

Susan was the most frustrating and pointless character I've seen in a long time. I agree with others here that there was probably a different plan for her to start with (seeing as she was introduced as super shady) but they scrapped it. IDK why. Making her shady would have at least made her interesting. What a waste of damn time. 

I enjoyed the Helix stuff if only it gave Felicity something of her own. I did not like how it was used to prove she was in the wrong somehow? Honestly, I still don't see what she did was so different to Oliver working with Slade or Malcolm in the finale. She was just getting the job done. 

I hated what they did with Olicity for the majority of the season and even though I'm happy they're back together or going slow or whatever, I didn't like how Felicity was the one who apologized in the end even though I knew that would happen. I want to forget about it now but yeah, it made me rage-y tbh.

And sorry to Dinah fans but I found the cliché "badass female" dialogue and pose to be really grating. She has potential but I don't think this show even needs a BC so I'm conflicted. 

Other disappointments: not enough Thea or Quentin. Diggle was given nothing of substance to do most of the season. Too much time spent on newbies. 

Edited June 12, 2017 by Angel12d

[leopardprint]

3 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I have no interest in re-watching any of s5 and I doubt I'll ever catch up on the ones I missed. I've felt both angry and then at times detached. Weird combo, I know.

I feel exactly the same way, I have zero interest in watching any of the episodes I missed or rewatching any of the episodes I did watch, which I cannot say about the previous four seasons. 

[apinknightmare]

This is the first season where I didn't watch every ep live, haven't watched quite a few eps at all (and probably won't), and didn't buy any on iTunes. I have watched a few scenes here and there now that the eps are up on Netflix. Here's hoping S6 changes all that.

[insomniadreams88]

I think one of the things I'm most bitter about when it comes to Susan is that they could have done a somewhat decent "reporter investigating Oliver" storyline. Instead of having him date her and trust her, especially over Thea and Felicity's protests about what she had on him, they could have had her be shady, just like she was without any of that "good person" and "good reporter" nonsense, and have him stand up for and protect Thea and Lance in the mayor's office and the team outside of it. He could have realized that a reporter looking into him could affect everyone else in his life and put them at risk. Or something. Anything except what we got. Instead, his behavior regarding Susan had me rooting against him. 

[tangerine95]

I ended up watching all the episodes but not live and it took me way longer to get to it and I rewatched maybe 3 or 4 and have no desire to ever rewatch more than that.I mostly liked scenes this season,rarely a whole episode because they would often include something that would piss me off and taint the episode for me.

Thinking about it Oliver really was so unlikable imo,it was hard to watch at times and I found myself rooting against him at one point.He pissed me off in previous seasons but I've never so totally lost sympathy for him as I did for a while this season.Especially the end of 5.09 after killing Billy and 5.14-515, the whole Susan thing was truly disgusting and made him look terrible in every way.Even apart from Susan,he was just kinda off and seemed cold and emotionless a lot of the time.They did turn it around after 5.17 and he started showing emotion and caring about his friends and loved ones again.

I agree all the Saint Laurel stuff was beyond annoying but it did go away once they established Dinah so it does seem like faking a legacy for Laurel so they can pretend someone needs to continue it was the point of all that.

[way2interested]

Ha, all the talk about not even watching /re-watching episodes makes me feel like an outsider since I just can't skip episodes when watching a tv show (I'm kind of an completist in that way) and still watched multiple episodes this year multiple times (502, 508, 509, 516, 518, 522, 523 twice and  510, 512, 519, 520 three times), although I'll still say there are episodes that I definitely won't watch again (505, 507, 513-515, and 517 although that last one for different reasons).

Edited June 12, 2017 by way2interested

[LeighAn]

I usually watch all the episodes but 5x13 I skipped based on people's reviews of how's  it was pointless and I had a lot of stuff on that week so I figured I wouldn't bother and 5x17 I skipped just because again had a lot of stuff on and I read it was gory so I figured I'd give it a miss but I might do a season 5 Rewatch before next season starts.

[lemotomato]

32 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I agree all the Saint Laurel stuff was beyond annoying but it did go away once they established Dinah so it does seem like faking a legacy for Laurel so they can pretend someone needs to continue it was the point of all that.

And I could have lived with that if it weren't for the fact that they're bringing KC back. So they're just going to dig that shit up again next year to contrast her with BS.

[Mellowyellow]

I was sooooo bitter during S5 but rewatching S2 has given me perspective. I do think I look back on the older seasons a bit too fondly. Part of it comes from watching the Olicity youtube clips which creates the delusion that there was TONNES of Olicity and OTA in the earlier seasons. Rewatching S2 highlighted how crap it was for me.

I still adore S3 but I was totally in love with the temp LI they brought in so I imagine everyone else who wasn't like me would have HATED it.

I am vowing to be less bitter next season (yes dem fighting words). Arrow for me is like that boy that has a few REALLY good points that you date hoping it can be better and give you what you want! Once in a while it does and it excels but mostly it just disappoints and you spend a lot of time being bitter and griping about why it won't/can't do better!

I'm going to try and accept that it is a fairly mediocre/poor show with two great leads who have amazing chemistry (and a handful of great characters) stop expecting so much!  I don't read any fanfic that makes me want to bitch so I should either stop watching Arrow if its unpalatable or watch it and not bitch!

Heheeh that's my Arrow resolution for the new season! But I'll probably still bitch about stuff! 

[Sunshine]

Not bitter. I watched each episode twice except 507, 513 & 517. Liked something about most of them.  I didn't hate the S5 storylines so much as the execution of them.  

Wish they had kept Rory instead of Curtis. I like Wild Dog and Dinah but I don't care about them. If they disappeared tomorrow I wouldn't miss them. I still care about Felicity, Diggle, Thea & Quentin.  Unfortunately I realized I don't care that much about Oliver outside those relationships.  Too much Oliver as a dumbass writing for me.  

I was thinking 80% chance I was done when S5 was over because of the writing which jumped to 95% when they announced KC as a regular for S6. I hated all the saint Laurel references this season and am already bored by BS.  The cliffhanger seemed like a good jumping off point.

I am hanging around here to see how they are selling S6 at SDCC.  There is nothing else on Thursday at 9pm so I might be more inclined to tune in.

[DrSpaceman10]

I agree with most of the thoughts posted here. This is my bitterness list, with extra butter.  

I'm bitter about Billy, and how they pushed Felicity into a relationship with him, that imo wasn't in character. She's not the type of person who needs to be in a relationship all of the time. Plus, the time wasted on him should have gone to her Havenrock storyline. 501 could have ended with Felicity coming home and obsessing over Havenrock (potentially shown by her looking at articles about the destruction on her computer or something). 

I hate that they erased Sara Diggle, the only decent kid on the show. She was an actual character in the show, not a prop like Myson. 

I'm super bitter about the 100th episode, and how it was more committed to honoring the show's original plan instead of what's actually happened the past five seasons. Plus, I hated how they minimized Felicity, in favor of Ray and Sara, two characters who guest starred on only one season of the show each.  Plus, what was with the random Laurel/Oliver wedding? They haven't been romantically involved at all since Season 1, that's just a fact. So, for the show to make this big deal about Oliver/Laurel out of nowhere, and minimize Oliver/Felicity makes no sense. Don't even get me started on the aliens. 

Episode 509, Oliver kills Felicity's boyfriend and then almost immediately goes to make out with his new girlfriend. Enough said. 

Which brings me to Susan. What a mess. Mostly, I think she was there so Oliver could sleep with her (aka someone who's not Felicity), with a little bit of story about Russia/reporting, so it didn't look as obvious. I do think there was going to be a bit more to her story (not sure what, don't care), but the reaction to her was so bad they decided not to do it. The worst part was how Oliver changed when he was with her, he turned into a terrible, hypocritical person. Plus, he made Thea feel so bad about what she did to Susan (which imo was kind of necessary since Oliver's such an idiot and Susan was shady), that she left town. I definitely wasn't a fan of how Oliver got in Felicity's face over the Susan/Thea/Hacking issue either.  I don't like Oliver as mayor either, he's bad at it and the way he covered up killing Billy was messed up and far from heroic. 

I hated how they ignored Diggle for the majority of the season, he had almost nothing to do. IMO, the noobs were the reason there was no time for Diggle. I feel bad for David Ramsey, and wouldn't blame him if he wanted to leave the show. He deserves better. 

The noobs are pointless, I don't hate them, but I don't like them either. The worst part is that they take time away from Diggle, and skills away from Felicity. Still not sure why they only got rid of Rory (aka the only decent noob). Again, the show's never needed a Canary, and is pretty much always better off without one (*insert dead horse gif here*)

There wasn't enough Thea either, which as some people have mentioned here, might have been an actress issue and not a writing issue. Still a negative about the season for me, though. 

Spoiler

I also don't like the fact that they're bringing back KC as a regular for Season 6. I don't really care enough about her to hate her and I don't think she'll have that big of a role, but it's annoying that death is meaningless and they're constantly killing and bringing back characters. And every time they insist that the character is really dead, and the actor's off the show for good barring a special appearance here or there, and somehow they still come back. It's especially bad for death to be meaningless on a show like Arrow, because it's used so often as an important plot point and a story motivator. 

It's annoying how nothing ever sticks on this show, whether it be death or a relationship. It makes it hard to get invested when you know they'll just reverse whatever "game-changing" thing they've done.

As far as Olicity goes, I didn't like how the show acted as though Oliver/Felicity had never dated for most of the season, let alone been engaged just last season. The stall for Oliver/Felicity was almost twice as long as their actual relationship, and after the last few episodes of this season I'm still not sure if they're actually back together or not.  I also hated how they had Felicity apologize to Oliver for the BMD. There's not much I can say about them because they ignored their relationship for so much of the season. I don't think they'll ever write Oliver/Felicity like they were in 4A again. 

Myson's my least favorite character/plot of all five seasons, and that's saying a lot. I wish Barry had erased him instead of Sara. Myson's only been in a handful of episodes, but the show makes such a big deal about him and Oliver, it ends up minimizing/ignoring the characters that have been there for 100+ episodes. I don't want to see Oliver interact with him, I don't like Samantha, and I'm not a fan of the fact that we'll probably be stuck with him for at least a while at the beginning of next season. Plus, I get the feeling that he'll be on and off the show, now that they've brought him out of hiding and made such a big deal about him being the "purest part of Oliver". 

I disliked most of the season, except for some Felicity stuff and most of 520. Good thing this thread exists, though :)

[statsgirl]

I feel like everyone else has said it so add my vote:

This season wasted so much of my time --- the newbies who were fails except for Rory and he's the only one who is gone (please, take Rene, Curtis and Dinah instead), Oliver and Felicity acting like robots (which was never explained),  Diggle spent most of the season propping up other characters, especially the n00bs.

It wasn't till the last few episodes that the show got worthwhile to watch again.

I'm bitter about how still only masks and costumes count rather than what a character does and how much she contributes.  I hated the ending of 5x09 when everyone went to comfort Oliver and ignored Felicity who was hurting because he h ad just killed her boyfriend.

If they wanted to spend time away from OTA, why didn't they spend more on Thea and Quentin?  Neither of them really got much, including poor Thea who as soon as she got her Moira on was castigated by Oliver for protecting him from that complete waste of time Susan.

The What Would St. Laurel Do? bore no resemblance to the Laurel of the first four seasons, especially the sudden change to her No Killing stand.  The Black Siren was fun for an episode but I don't have any interest in seeing BS and Dinah fake screaming at each other ever again. (Zzzzzzzz)

But mostly I'm bitter that the show pushed aside the things I watch for in order to spend the time on things that wasted my time.  The 100th episode was everything I didn't want to see.

Characters I have no interest in seeing next year but will be back anyway:  Rene, Black Siren, Samantha and William (speculation),  Curtis and Dinah can stay if they are on the B team.

[tv echo]

Bitter about 5A episodes, the 100th episode, Sara Diggle, Susan, William, and the cliffhanger explosion. Butter about Chase (Josh Segarra!), Helix, and a handful of 5B episodes.

[kes0704]

Bitter that I (optimistically) bought an iTunes pass for season 5 and I'll never watch the majority of the episodes ever again.  To be honest, I skim watched most of 5a and really only returned to watching properly from 517 onwards.  I'm bitter that I was excited for the 100th episode being a celebration of the show that I loved and I ended up with an alien dream world filled with characters I do not care about (Laurel, Sara, Ray) getting story prominence over actual current Arrow cast members.

I'm bitter about Susan and I still can't work out what her story purpose was outside of annoying me and contributing to my actively disliking Oliver for the first time in the history of the show.  

Other things I'm butter about...Felicity's oversold and under delivered story exploration of Havenrock, the amount of time spent on the newbies, the Olicity stall that played out  like the EP's were trying to erase the relationship entirely from the narrative, bringing back any version of Laurel Lance, Myson and BMD and storylines that took up time and ended up going nowhere (AKA Susan).

I won't make the mistake again of buying an iTunes pass until after I see whether Felicity, Diggle, Thea and Quentin are given storylines and how much of Myson, BS and the newbies I'll have to sit through.  

[ladylaw99]

Agree with alot of what has been said.  For all the complaining I did about this season (and there was alot) I feel very meh about season 5.  Every season has its good episodes and the bad ones, but for me this season started off poorly with the flashpoint and Sara being replaced and then alot of what I loved went downhill. For me the season really started at 5.16.  

I have no expectations for season 6, I'm on a wait and see basis.  Unfortunately, I am one of the ones who gets to see Arrow still on Wednesdays - unfortunate because I relied on the live viewing thread to see if it was worth watching and more importantly what to skip.  There is PVR, so has long as 6a isn't like 5a I will watch live but if it turns out to be everything like 5a then PVR it is.

[Chaser]

There were things I hated (Reporter, St Laurel, Curtis, unearned episodes) and things I was frustrated with (Oliver, Diggles storyline) and things I enjoyed (Felicity and Helix, Chase). There were some great episodes and some awful ones. Mostly the normal. 

The thing I'm most bitter about in regards to S5 is  I'm leaving S5 not super enthused about anything. 

I think I need SDCC to be amazing. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Slightly bitter, but mostly just bored. I didn't care for most of the season. Found most of their story/character choices disappointing. I understood what they were trying to do but appalled at how badly they did a lot of the things — Snoozan, Billy, Myson, the annoying newbies, Thea's forced hiatus, the 100th episode, Felicity's Helix storyline used to justify Oliver's idiocy, etc. I found Oliver too reactive the entire season. The show hasn't managed to redeem Oliver as a character for me, and that's a problem because he's the lead. 

As a fan of OTA, I'm bitter that the writers will just forever dangle those three before me without fully honoring the dynamic. It's strange, because I believe the show knows how important to Arrow the OTA dynamic is and yet it only showcases it toward the end of the season when it feels like Arrow needs to remind viewers of what they love and need to stick the landing for the finale. 

Like others upthread I'm waiting to see what SDCC has because the only thing in that damn finale that made me go "I want to see what happens next" was Olicity and I think that may no longer be enough if they keep stalling. 

[Carrie Ann]

To start with the positive: I really enjoyed 516-523, with some reservations.

But then there's everything else. I was quite bitter about a number of off-screen/PR-related things this season. But to stick to the show itself: I think the writers botched just about every storyline they set up in the early going. Saint Laurel was nonsense. The noobs' introduction was very poorly considered and executed. Quentin's relapse arc was repetitive and had no payoff, except for the bonding with Thea, which I did like. I think Paul and Willa did the very best with what little they had, all season. Also, IMO the writers feel completely opposite of most viewers when it comes to Thea becoming more like Moira. I'm rooting for it, personally. I think Thea is kinda boring as a white-hat and would prefer her to be more grey and for Oliver to STFU about it.

Diggle's army/prison arc was worthless except for clearing the way for the noobs, and ultimately there was very little reaction to the Sara stuff. Felicity had a lot to do with the new team in 5A, and I appreciated her role there a lot, but they utterly blew it with Havenrock and Billy. I understand that Billy was only there to be killed by Oliver, but there were ways to handle it that would have accomplished the same goals without creating issues with characterization and continuity. Felicity's "dark turn" (not so dark, really) should have also been informed by Havenrock, her paralysis, Sara's murder, Laurel's murder, etc. They should have taken the opportunity to tell a deeper story by exploring how five years worth of trauma caused Felicity to start feeling "any means necessary" about things. Billy was a blip on the radar, and a flimsy motivation. (But it would also have been richer if they had their facts straight--she's been grey from the beginning and she definitely did not back Oliver every time she disapproved of his choices.)

Speaking of flimsy motivations...Adrian Chase. Good thing I love Josh Segarra so much, because otherwise Prometheus would have been maybe the worst Arrow Big Bad ever. As it was, his schtick got tiresome by the end, like Slade's did, but I always loved the performance.

And then there's Oliver. I guess I'm one of the people who didn't hate Oliver this season; I just stopped understanding him, which made it hard to feel much of anything for him. I don't think I really understood where he was coming from until 516, and even then it stayed pretty fuzzy for the rest of the season. I think the writers forgot about the "where's the Oliver in every story" thing, and instead they just came up with their stories and gave Oliver whatever motivation fit that day--which has happened throughout the series, but it was more pronounced this year--or they didn't even bother figuring out his motivations. Usually, my complaint is that only Oliver gets a POV and we're left to wonder about the other characters, but this season, it felt like even Oliver didn't always get one and when he did, it was often nonsensical. We were just presented with stuff, and left to fill in the blanks about the why of it all.

So when it comes to next season, I guess I just hope it's more like the last eight episodes and not the first 15, and that someone will give the EPs some media training (lol @ me) But my expectations are now as low as possible, so I'll just plan to tune out again when things aren't going my way next year.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Carrie Ann

[Cleanqueen]

I have watched all the episodes, I can never skip an episode or even skip scenes when I am invested in a show. Once I start skipping, I just drop the show.

I think there were a lot of things in 5A that agitated me but there was also some good moments. I did like the Oliver and Felicity interactions in the first three episodes, they had some good character moments esp with both of them putting together the new team. Now that the season is over, I can understand(still stupid) where Billy came from but I can't understand why Oliver needed to kill him in order for Felicity to seek revenge and head down the "dark path"

Susan is by far the shows biggest mistake after LL becoming Black Canary in my opinion. I wish they stuck with their original intent(based on the narrative) that she actually wanted to expose Oliver or made her intentions clear. 

The newbies are just whatever to me at this point, there isn't a character that I do want to see more of. I prefer they all just stay in the background. I would however love for the show to explore more female dynamics on the show. Thea, Felicity and Dinah should be sharing more screen time and actually should have solo missions. 

I am indifferent to William, I would prefer he too also stays in the background and we only see him here and there and not be used as a potential kidnap story for the rest of the season. Also preferably a different actor.

While I did hate how Olicity ignored their feelings in the first half of the season, I am OK with how they reconciled and I appreciate that an entire episode was dedicated to them and made up for the lack of airtime they received together. I am looking forward to what is in store for them next season. I do want a wedding by mid season finale though, I can't wait any longer.

I did love Chase as both the DA and as both Prometheus. Josh did an amazing job. Only disappointment is that is we never got any Chase/Felicity scenes.

My hope for season 6 is for someone other than Oliver to be the one in constant limbo about being themselves and being their superhero persona. Let someone else have an identity crisis for once.

Also I want the least amount of screen time spent on BS and her life story. IDGAF. 

Edited June 13, 2017 by Cleanqueen

[insomniadreams88]

9 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

Only disappoint is that is we never got any Chase/Felicity scenes.

So much this. I can't believe that all we got was a "Ms. Smoak" in 522. Why couldn't they cut out a "daddy" from Black Siren to Lance or Oliver's "my son!" in the same episode and given us something more than that? Anything? They made losing Billy so important for Felicity's Helix arc, yet she had nothing to say to the person who put the guy in the position that led to his death? 

[Mellowyellow]

I still don't buy that Billy was important. She referenced him in one line in 520. Other times she forgets he existed so I could buy her not being too bothered to confront Chase. 

[insomniadreams88]

1 minute ago, Mellowyellow said:

I still don't buy that Billy was important. She referenced him in one line in 520. Other times she forgets he existed so I could buy her not being too bothered to confront Chase. 

My problem is that they wrote it that he was important to her and WM kept bringing him up in interviews as being important. Even though we never saw it on-screen, I wish we had gotten something. Would have helped after having to read through all those interviews and getting that out-of-nowhere mention of him in 520. 

[Mellowyellow]

1 minute ago, insomniadreams88 said:

My problem is that they wrote it that he was important to her and WM kept bringing him up in interviews as being important. Even though we never saw it on-screen, I wish we had gotten something. Would have helped after having to read through all those interviews and getting that out-of-nowhere mention of him in 520. 

I get why you're pissed but Wendy is so Wendy. I bet she tacked on that line because she wrote 520.

519 was Felicity's big crusade and that was all about saving Oliver's soul.  This show!!!!!

I've just got to take what I want from it selectively. They redeemed the lack of Chase/Felicity by him using Felicity to taunt Oliver before he offed himself. 

Writers are as clumsy as sh@t but I took that as an attempt to highlight Felicity's importance in the midst of the Myson crowing. 

[leopardprint]

10 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

My problem is that they wrote it that he was important to her and WM kept bringing him up in interviews as being important. Even though we never saw it on-screen, I wish we had gotten something. Would have helped after having to read through all those interviews and getting that out-of-nowhere mention of him in 520. 

It actually also makes Felicity look super callous, blah blah dark spiral, she cried once and then was mildly perturbed Oliver put chasing BS before going after Prometheus. That's it? That's her reaction to her boyfriend of several months being murdered by Oliver who then used his office to cover it up  dying? That's cold, girl. 

Oh wait, I have another bitter. Please let the characters show emotions, otherwise why even have actors? Just film your action figures, stop motion style, it will be cheaper. 

Edited June 12, 2017 by leopardprint

[BkWurm1]

I'm bitter Billy is still a topic, lol.  

[LeighAn]

11 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I'm bitter Billy is still a topic, lol.  

I'm bitter lots of things are still topics to be honest. Billy, Susan, Tinah, Lauriver, BS, Myson....

I've actually completely forgotten that Billy was even mentioned in 5x20 haha. I actually can't remember in good detail even one of his scenes to be honest. I feel like I'm Rory and Lorelai and Billy's Paul who I kept forgetting every five minutes haha.

[insomniadreams88]

17 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

I've actually completely forgotten that Billy was even mentioned in 5x20 haha. I actually can't remember in good detail even one of his scenes to be honest. I feel like I'm Rory and Lorelai and Billy's Paul who I kept forgetting every five minutes haha.

The problem is that other than the quick mentions of Billy in 510 and 520, the show seemed to forget that he was Felicity's boyfriend. When the ACU was going after the Green Arrow for his murder, no one even brought up that Felicity knew him. They acted like he was just a detective Oliver killed and then someone they could briefly discuss pinning everything on. I'm not sure if Lance even knew Felicity dated Billy.

Which leads to something else I'm bitter about: how no one seemed to update Lance on everything he missed while in rehab until it became relevant to the plot. Someone really should have told him about Black Siren and that she pretended to be Laurel. He shouldn't have had to find out about her the way he did. He should have been prepared for that. 

[way2interested]

Just now, insomniadreams88 said:

The problem is that other than the quick mentions of Billy in 510 and 520, the show seemed to forget that he was Felicity's boyfriend. When the ACU was going after the Green Arrow for his murder, no one even brought up that Felicity knew him. They acted like he was just a detective Oliver killed and then someone they could briefly discuss pinning everything on.

...I was ok with that, tbh.

[tangerine95]

I was okay with Billy not being mentioned much after he got killed off.I thought he was unnecessary in the first place it would have been weird and annoying if Felicity mourned for episodes or something because this is a character we knew next to nothing about,we didn't even know how or why Felicity started dating him and he legit would get like a minute scene an episode until he got killed off.

I was fine with Felicity being sad but moving on like she did and thought it was appropriate for a brief relationship where she struggled to call him her bf and was still clearly in love with Oliver.I thought they might play out Felicity feels guilty he died or something but I'm glad they didn't go there either.

Edited June 13, 2017 by tangerine95

[lemotomato]

50 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

The problem is that other than the quick mentions of Billy in 510 and 520, the show seemed to forget that he was Felicity's boyfriend. When the ACU was going after the Green Arrow for his murder, no one even brought up that Felicity knew him. They acted like he was just a detective Oliver killed and then someone they could briefly discuss pinning everything on. I'm not sure if Lance even knew Felicity dated Billy.

I didn't have a problem with Billy never being mentioned after he died because he was a non-entity on the show when he was alive. The only person that made him important was WM in interviews.

[kes0704]

Wendy's episode interviews were actually one of the worst parts of season 5.  She has the unique  ability to tease an episode to the point where I don't want to watch it.  

[SmallScreenDiva]

I had no use for Billy either, but the problem is the show hinged Felicity's arc on him. She supposedly lost sight of everything, went down this (not so) dark spiral because of her grief over his death. So yeah, I wish Arrow had set him up better. I wish they didn't go through the "gotcha" route of "look, hey, Felicity is coming home to someone -- and it's not Oliver, dun, dun, dun!" I wish they showed me Felicity getting spooked working with Oliver every day and fighting her feelings, I wish they showed me Felicity meeting Billy and being charmed enough to agree to go out with him but also torn by the fact she still very much loves Oliver. I wish they gave me a reason to gain a better understanding of Felicity as a character through her actions regarding Billy.  But these writers lack the ability to portray nuance, feelings, emotions properly. Everything is plotty plot plot. So I end up not giving a fuck about Billy, Snoozan, Myson or even Oliver Queen.

[LeighAn]

That's just it the show DIDNT hinge Felicitys arch on him they established quite reasonably why Felicity was doing the things she was doing and her motivations. It's Wendy who kept trying to make it about Billy.