S05.E18: Sexual Harassment in the Workplace in the United States

[Athena]

LWT will be back July 29th, 2018.

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Other segments: Special Counsel Investigation, Facebook stock price drop
Guests: Anita Hill

 

[Annber03]

Has Anita Hill ever considered running for some kind of public office? 'Cause I'd be all for that if she did. Very, very cool that she did an interview tonight. I was just a little kid when the hearings against Thomas happened in '91, but watching those clips now, I would've honestly cheered if she actually had told all those jerks at the hearings to go fuck themselves. She has far more restraint and composure than I think I or some other people might have in that kind of situation. 

I am so incredibly glad this episode ran long. Can we highlight that entire segment on sexual harassment and play it over and over and over and over and over and over again for everybody who keeps complaining about the #MeToo and Time'sUp movements and such until the message finally sinks into their heads? I loved Oliver making the point that certain behavior doesn't have to be illegal in order to be bad. All these people keep talking about "due process" and how we need to have this stuff go through the police and courts...well, no, not every scene of harassment is going to be a criminal matter, so that's not always going to be the next step. And most of the women who've made accusations against all these powerful men thus far haven't even asked for or demanded trials or jail time. If they do, then we can go from there. I'd also note that considering how much money and influence so many of the men who've been accused and lost jobs brought to the places they worked for, the fact they were fired is enough to tell me there's something to the accusations, 'cause you don't get rid of your golden goose just on a whim. 

I also don't understand the people who keep saying these accusations are a witch hunt. Er...most of the men who've been accused thus far actually have confessed to and been found guilty of the things they were accused of doing, so...how exactly is that a witch hunt? That's like Trump (and speaking of sexual harassers who should be held accountable for their shit...) calling this entire Mueller investigation a witch hunt despite all the arrests and indictments and people considering flipping and facing trial that have come from it. It's amazing how so many people lately seem to be completely missing the point of what a witch hunt actually is. 

And yes, people from Fox News whining about harassment is just...beyond rich. Tucker Carlson needs to shut his damn mouth. I would truly not be surprised to see something about him someday, frankly. The whole thing about that network claiming not to receive complaints over the years...I also wonder if some women DID complain, only to simply be laughed off or ignored, and the network just lumped them in with the women who were afraid to speak up at all and pretended like their complaints didn't even occur in the first place. I could easily see that happening as well. 

Oliver made a good point about finding that "line" as well, and how some people can still take advantage of that. To say nothing of how the line can sometimes vary depending on the relationship between the people involved (for instance, maybe a woman might feel comfortable engaging in flirty banter with one particular male co-worker she's good friends with. That doesn't mean EVERY male co-worker of hers should automatically assume she'll want to do that with them, too), and sometimes, there doesn't need to be any clarification on lines at all, because the rules should be pretty damn obvious to begin with. There is no valid reason to be grabbing somebody's body parts at work (or in any other setting, for that matter, unless they give you permission to do so). This shouldn't be something we have to tell people not to do. 

Bah. Anywho. Yeah. Good segment and good way to come back from break. As for the other topics, the show's version of the Facebook ad was awesome, and as for Cohen...please keep on spilling your guts and sharing tapes and other various stuff of that sort. Please :D. 

[attica]

"Where's the line?! Can't I even hug a woman?"  Dude, how 'bout NO. Howsabout you have the novel notion of letting women at work just do their emming-effing work without having to wade through a forest of your peens and feelings?  Do you fret about hugging your dude coworkers? No, they just do their jobs.  (Last time a coworker got handsy with me and I reported it, I got "aw, he's just affectionate, he didn't mean anything by it." I do not care what he meant by it. I do not want his emming-effing mitts on my person, and that has to be good e-godddamn-nough.)

[peeayebee]

I am on Facebook but I don't use it that much. The fake ad was spot on. I didn't realize that it was Thomas Middlechurch (from Silicon Valley) doing the VO. 

Loved the interview with Anita Hill. She is awesome. And like she said, there probably ARE some false accusations, but there are many more real ones, as we've seen from the news and, well, just experiencing such stuff ourselves. But what I'd like to ask those who say "What about the poor innocent men?" is, How are women who have been harassed supposed to react? Should they not speak up? 

I haven't thought about this in a while, but after high school I worked at a Jack-in-the-Box where an assistant manager made me uncomfortable. I remember once he hugged me from behind. But I didn't complain. I thought it was harmless. Turns out other women who worked there DID complain because he was doing the same thing with them. Management talked to me, and I told them that, yes, he hugged me without my wanting him to. (I can't remember what else he did to make me uncomfortable. This was in the 70's.) He was fired. I actually felt guilty. One thing was that he was black and the women were all white. Of course that's no excuse for letting things slide. It's good to look back and see that way back then the company did the right thing.

[Lantern7]

Welcome back, John . . . and he arrives with an interview segment that was depressing. Yes, Anita Hill looks to have lived a healthy life, but she was repeatedly run over by Republican assholes. And a few are still around . . . like Orrin Hatch. From what I remember from a previous LWT, he is behind only Pence and Ryan in presidential succession.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Lantern7

[Annber03]

13 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

And a few are still around . . . like Orrin Hatch. From what I remember from s previous LWT, he is behind only Pence and Ryan in presidential succession.

Yeah, I thought about the whole "line of succession" thing with him, too. Great to know that we'll have a jerk in office no matter what if we actually do wind up moving down the line :/. 

But yeah, looking at that list of people who'd interrogated her, knowing what I do about their general policies and stances, their attitudes were sadly not surprising. And yet they still have jobs. Unbelievable. 

[Hooper]

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..like Orrin Hatch. From what I remember from a previous LWT, he is behind only Pence and Ryan in presidential succession....

Not necessarily.  This scenario would be correct if Pence was still VP on that happy day that Trump resigns/does his perp walk.  BUT if Pence were to be removed from office (impeached, resigned) while Trump was still president, under the 25th amendment Trump would appoint a replacement who would have to be approved by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress.  If Trump were then removed from office, newly appointed Vice President Gary Busey would become president, not the Speaker of the House.  And newly sworn in President Busey would then get to appoint his new Vice President (Chuck Norris).  This is exactly how Gerald Ford and Nelson Rockerfeller became president and vice president.  

I remember the Anita Hill testimony, and the aftermath, and I was thrilled to see JO remind us of what a hero she is. Through all of the recent high profile revelations of sexual harassment I've felt like we've been down the Time's Up road before and it turns out it's just a giant roundabout.  That Anita Hill can acknowledge the deja vu all over again-ness while still maintaining some optimism that progress is possible is inspiring.  I loved every second of JO's interview with her.

[Victor the Crab]

My sentiment exactly when Ollie shouted "FUCK YOU!" at Facebook's so called apology ad. To expect them to change is laughable, especially given last week when Facebook refused to pull the videos of Alex Jones scream accusing Robert Mueller of being a pedophile and threatening to kill him in a gunfight. It's nothing but business for these turd miners of information.

I have to admire Anita Hill maintaining a positive outlook in last night's interview, especially when compared to Ollie's pessimistic outlook about sexual harassment. She certainly has ever right to be bitter and cynical about what was done to her in those Senate hearings from three decades ago.

[Annber03]

9 minutes ago, Victor the Crab said:

especially given last week when Facebook refused to pull the videos of Alex Jones scream accusing Robert Mueller of being a pedophile and threatening to kill him in a gunfight. 

I shouldn't be surprised by this, because, well, Alex Jones, but still. Damn. Can't we just permanently muzzle that idiot already or something? 

I was appalled by that bit in the Facebook segment about the avatars going to examine the destruction from the hurricane in Puerto Rico. The way it was done was dumb enough as it was (god forbid you actually go there in person and use the great means you have available to maybe try to, I dunno, actively help people rebuild or anything of that sort, right?), but ah, little tip, guys? Maybe don't have your avatars sitting there laughing and high-fiving and talking about how cool this technology is while you're in the midst of talking about how people's lives and homeland have been destroyed and ruined. Dumbasses. 

[BusyOctober]

Loved loved loved the Anita Hill segment.  She was as composed and articulate and wise and centered and spot-fucking-ON with JO as she was facing that room full of assholes 27 years ago. I admire her a great deal.  My favorite moment (aside from the entire conversation) was when she mentioned how, in respect to changing behavior to end sexual harassment, the “problem” always comes back to how do we teach our girls to stand up, be assertive and ‘not let themselves become victims’.  Her reply was the girls aren’t the ones with the problem.  Exactly!  The same BS nonsense is still being spewed today. Why are girls & women held accountable for changing their behavior to thwart the disgusting, unwanted and illegal behavior of boys & men???? Are you effing kidding me?  

And as for all these poor, broken and confused men in the workplace or on college campuses who are now “afraid” of women and false accusations...FUUUUCK YOOOOOUU.  To quote Ms. Hill (and other people with a modicum of common fucking sense), you need only be “afraid” if you are a rapist, or a predator, or a sexual harasser.  

[Corgi-ears]

9 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

And a few are still around . . . like Orrin Hatch. From what I remember from a previous LWT, he is behind only Pence and Ryan in presidential succession.

Someone was already second in line. Joe Biden didn't exactly cover himself in glory during the Hill hearings (though, for what it's worth, he has apologized). 

[paigow]

19 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I shouldn't be surprised by this, because, well, Alex Jones, but still.

 

Alex Jones is Johnny Ringo...

[Quickbeam]

It REALLY bothered me that John did not identify the late great White Shadow himself, Ken Howard in that 80’s training video. I was actually shown that at one of my many jobs, decades ago. 

I love Anita Hill. I think she’s amazing. 

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, Quickbeam said:

It REALLY bothered me that John did not identify the late great White Shadow himself, Ken Howard in that 80’s training video.

Yeah. That bugged me too. I can't remember how he identified him, but it was something snarky.

[ahisma]

16 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Yeah. That bugged me too. I can't remember how he identified him, but it was something snarky.

"Store-Brand Ted Danson"

I have to admit, it made me laugh! I adored Ken Howard in The White Shadow, but the script, set, costuming for this video were all bizarre. My first thought actually was, "Is this supposed to be Cheers?" so John's line was perfect. But seriously, Ken's in a bar, where most people go after work, so is he saying it's okay to sexually harass women when you're out in the evening? How about a cocktail waitress—she's working. Or that's only a no if you also work at the bar? Not a well thought through video!

The Anita Hill interview was outstanding. This is where downplaying these shows as "comedy, not news" falls apart, because that interview was better than 90% of the content on actual news shows. Yes, he joked about things like polar bears in the workplace, but Anita rolled with the humor like a champ and his points were all solid.

I loved the interchange at the end where she got him to think about what to do and he said he would tell the guy he was creepy. Then she pointed out he should go to the target and ask if she was okay and did she want him to say anything. John was so honestly disappointed in himself he didn't think of that and she was so gracious about it. Just a really great conversation for this moment in time. 

[ganesh]

Hill is always a great interview. I like how she jumped right on the "glacial pace" punchline. 

1991 was when I first started understanding "the news." We had a current events class and watched the hearings. I was disgusted with Hatch then and I've been disgusted with him ever since. 

Even then, when John was showing the clips, I remember cringing at the questioning. 

John was making a joke at how composed she was, but really, had she lashed out, they would have killed her for being hysterical. 

[ALenore]

I remember the hearings very well.  I would get very upset because most of the women in my office were against her (they were Republicans and bought the party line).  I used to have to leave the office when they were insulting her and talking about how she must be crazy to think that someone would sexually harass, since she wasn't pretty enough. Occasionally I tried to offer my opinions, but it was something like 10 against 1, so I gave up.  

Harassers and those who support them are still using the same arguments today (she's crazy, vengeful, fame-hungry, not pretty enough, etc.)   It's very frustrating.  

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

John was making a joke at how composed she was, but really, had she lashed out, they would have killed her for being hysterical. 

On the subject of "hysterical" women, I've been seeing some comments lately from people who've quoted Trump's recent all-caps rant towards Iran and saying things along the lines of, "So...remind me again why people continue to believe that a female president would be incapable of controlling her emotions?" 

5 minutes ago, ALenore said:

I used to have to leave the office when they were insulting her and talking about how she must be crazy to think that someone would sexually harass, since she wasn't pretty enough. 

Oh, for fuck's sake. Morons. I'd need to leave the room if I heard that nonsense, too. 

[peeayebee]

13 hours ago, ahisma said:

I loved the interchange at the end where she got him to think about what to do and he said he would tell the guy he was creepy. Then she pointed out he should go to the target and ask if she was okay and did she want him to say anything. John was so honestly disappointed in himself he didn't think of that and she was so gracious about it. Just a really great conversation for this moment in time. 

Yes, this was a highlight. Loved it.

 

3 hours ago, ganesh said:

Hill is always a great interview. I like how she jumped right on the "glacial pace" punchline. 

That was awesome. I love when people are quick with wordplay.

[cpcathy]

Even I knew it was Ken Howard. Get with it, John.

[MaryPatShelby]

Yeah, JO not knowing Ken Howard was...odd.  Do you think he really didn't know, or just chose not to acknowledge it? He was in more than just The White Shadow, too......

[ahisma]

12 hours ago, MaryPatShelby said:

Do you think he really didn't know, or just chose not to acknowledge it?

To be fair, I doubt a Brit would have had much chance to know who he was. John's staff should know, though, unless they are all under 40.

[Annber03]

4 minutes ago, ahisma said:

unless they are all under 40.

Could be that. I'm 33 and the name doesn't ring a bell to me at all. 

[Robert Lynch]

My parents recognized him right away. It must be a generational thing. Hey, I am a 90s kid, so sue me! Hehehe....

[peeayebee]

I think his staff and maybe even John did know it was Ken Howard, but decided just to go with the joke, although maybe they could have said something like, "Ken Howard, or Store-Brand Ted Danson."

[Brandi Maxxxx]

I only really know Ken Howard from 30 Rock and there's no way I would have recognised a younger version of him.

[Sharpie66]

For me, Ken Howard will always been Thomas Jefferson, since I grew up watching 1776 every July 4th. “Mr. Adams, damn you, Mr. Adams!”

[peeayebee]

For a long time I thought he and Blythe Danner were married.

[Quickbeam]

An illustrious career, also former SAG president. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Howard

[wendyg]

It's not just age. I'm 64 and I've never heard of him before.

[bilgistic]

He's a "Hey, It's That Guy" to me. I'm 43.

[attica]

He did a very bad German accent to play the diplomat Mare Winningham married in The Thorn Birds. (When I'm in A Mood, I will still occasionally call people I like "Herzen"* in honor of that bad German accent.)

*German for 'heart', term of endearment used by that character.

[OneWhoLurks]

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I thought about these two stories when I watched John Oliver’s recent interview with Anita Hill, the American lawyer and professor who, according to Laura Bradley in Vanity Fair, catalyzed an earlier #MeToo type of movement in the 1990’s, when she “testified that Clarence Thomas, then a Supreme Court nominee, had harassed her when she worked for him at the Department of Education and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.”

Hill, like many women and men who report a wrongdoing, whether it’s done to them or to someone else, was not praised for bringing the problem to public awareness. Instead, she was attacked and vilified. Her entire personality and personal history became a target of her critics. 

When someone reports a wrongdoing, we often start to look for what might be wrong with them or what might be false about their story. Why? Why do we look to criticize someone who reports when something bad is happening?

 

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Psychotherapists have long been aware of a group mentality that says, “Protect each other,” that often starts with siblings but continues into all sorts of groups – fraternities and sororities in college, religious groups, unions, and professional organizations, just to name a few. We value the idea of banding together to protect our own.

But there are other complex  psychological dynamics going on when someone tells on someone else, as well. One factor is that, on top of being forced to see something we don’t want to see, a whistleblower can stir up our own guilt for misbehaving.  So we flip the picture, getting angry at the person who represents our conscience instead of accepting that guilt. In psychological terms, this response is sometimes called projective identification– we see in the other person something we don’t like in ourselves and get angry with them instead of with ourselves. 

And then there’s the sense (false, according to Dr. Morgan) that tattletales are often smug. They act like they are better than us; so naturally, we want to make them feel bad too. So we attack their credibility, which feels like we are protecting our own credibility.

 

Why We Love to Hate Whistleblowers

[link417]

Re: Ken Howard, I didn’t know his name (I’m 31) but I recognized him as the guy that made Blanche “feel like a lady” on Golden Girls. That video probably would have been filmed around the same time as that episode which explains why I recognized him so readily. I’ve literally never seen him in anything else.