S01.E02: Dirt

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Camille searches for clues at the funeral and wake for Wind Gap’s latest victim, and clashes with her mother over Camille’s presence in the town. Richard finds a surprising way to arrive at a conclusion about the murderer’s profile. Camille pays a visit to the working-class home of a young boy who says he witnessed the abduction, and confronts Chief Vickery about why he ignored the boy’s claim.

 

[OptimisticCynic]

When the detective mentioned the killer wanting to appear close to the family, the fact that both girls were tomboys, the mention of the woman in white and Adora saying she wanted to “help Natalie” my theory is that Adora is the killer.

She basically fits every bit of the profile that I think was meant to redirect to the Nash father. 

That’s my crazy theory.

[Penman61]

My Demons are Not Remotely Tackled;
They Are Just Mildly Concussed

Amen, Camille.  Amen.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Penman61
Because newly-coined Southern aphorisms are worth quoting correctly.

[preeya]

Michael Legrand - Windmills of Your Mind

[scrb]

What sets Camille off to use that pin on herself?  First episode, she was drinking every chance she got.  This episode, she goes to the convenience store and just buys the sewing kit, not any booze?

At the end of the episode, she has words with Adora and then goes to her room and uses the pin on her lower tummy.

It sure doesn't look like Adora is at a loss to bond with Camille.  That childhood memory, she hugs the other daughter warmly, takes her into the room which is off limits to Camille and shuts the door in young Camille's face.

Parents aren't suppose to have favorites or be blatant about it.

2 minutes ago, preeya said:

Michael Legrand - Windmills of Your Mind

The literal translation is "the mills of my heart."

[preeya]

2 minutes ago, scrb said:

Parents aren't suppose to have favorites or be blatant about it.

I'm certain that Adora is nowhere close to being a "normal" parent. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

When Richard told the barber what whoever was leaving flowers in the town square and where Natalie's body was found might be someone with a guilty conscience, I just rolled my eyes. Has he never lived in a town where there was a murder, a fatal car crash, or some other kind of death? Does he think that every person who left flowers at Paisley Park secretly murdered Prince and felt guilty about it? Flowers, balloons, stuffed animals, and other things are often left to memorialize a death, especially when it's a younger person who died. I don't think every person who leaves flowers has something to do with their death.

Adora cares way too much what people think. No one would have even noticed Camille taking notes if Adora hadn't kept fighting with her about it by taking her pen and trying to stop her from writing in her notebook. Everyone in the church was sitting down so not even the people in the row behind her would have seen her writing.

When Camille just walked into Natalie's room, I thought this is EXACTLY why I wouldn't want to invite half the town to my house.

Man, Adora sucks. She has never even tried to hide that she doesn't like Camille. Even if Camille isn't a trustworthy narrator and her memories are biased, Adora takes every opportunity to pick at Camille which was made crystal clear when Amma was sobbing on the floor and Adora took that time to accuse Camille of being drunk at the Keenes' house. Seriously, Adora?

[ferjy]

So we have a few more words. “Scared” on her car door, “Whatever” on the pink sweatshirt on the hook, “fornicate” and part of “entice” (I’m figuring) etched into skin, and if you count the “Please wash you hands” sign on the wall in the morgue. 

Looks like Adora  knows about Camille’s cutting. She took the knife away from Camille pretty quickly to cut the apple for her. I guess everyone in the household does. The maid snatched up all the knives to hide.

And the eyelash/hair pulling is a longtime thing. At least since Marian died. Adora pulling at her eyelashes at the funeral. And her husband knows (“you don’t want to look like a hairless cat”). 

Edited July 16, 2018 by ferjy

[zobot81]

42 minutes ago, ferjy said:

And the eyelash/hair pulling is a longtime thing. At least since Marian died. Adora pulling at her eyelashes at the funeral. And her husband knows (“you don’t want to look like a hairless cat”). 

It is a body-focused behavioral disorder, called trichotillomania.  It is closely related to OCD.  My mother had trichotillomania, and she had a bald spot on the top of her head where she pulled out each hair, one by one.  Her identical twin has also struggled with the disorder.  I have dermatillomania, which is compulsive skin-picking (and pretty much an alternative manifestation of hair pulling).  The things I can tell you about the behavior is that it's largely unconscious, mildly masochistic, and simultaneously meditative. In order to combat it, one has to become more grounded and aware of his or her behavior.  It also gets worse under stress.

It runs in families.  So does alcoholism.  And I imaging that Camille's self-cutting is a more severe manifestation of her mother's disorder.

[BingeyKohan]

I have watched Amy Adams in the Man of Steel/Batman Vs Superman/Justice League trilogy more times than I care to admit - and this is probably an unfair comparison since Lois Lane and Camille have little in common besides being newspaper reporters - but it's striking how much more compelling and believable Adams is here as a reporter. And as a human. Maybe I'm thinking specifically of how waxen she looked in Justice League (even seeming to wear a wig for some reason) but I love how natural she and unaffected she is in this. I read somewhere that because of scheduling oddities she filmed all her scenes first, which may explain why they largely take place in Camille's car, gazing in curiosity and horror through her windshield. but she even makes those pack a lot of punch.

Someone upthread mentioned the monstrosity of Adora taking a break from cradling Amma to chastise Camille. I wonder though if Adora too (deep down) knows that Amma is full of sh*t so she knew both the Amma fit and her own soothing of it were all just for show anyway. 

I am both creeped out and captivated by Elizabeth Perkins' character. I think now we'll just watch everybody and size up whether they're capable of pulling teeth with a pair of pliers. I also notice we have not yet been exposed to the conditions at Adora's hog-slaughtering operation and I am fine with putting that off as long as possible.

[SarahPrtr]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When Richard told the barber what whoever was leaving flowers in the town square and where Natalie's body was found might be someone with a guilty conscience, I just rolled my eyes. Has he never lived in a town where there was a murder, a fatal car crash, or some other kind of death? Does he think that every person who left flowers at Paisley Park secretly murdered Prince and felt guilty about it? Flowers, balloons, stuffed animals, and other things are often left to memorialize a death, especially when it's a younger person who died. I don't think every person who leaves flowers has something to do with their death.

Adora cares way too much what people think. No one would have even noticed Camille taking notes if Adora hadn't kept fighting with her about it by taking her pen and trying to stop her from writing in her notebook. Everyone in the church was sitting down so not even the people in the row behind her would have seen her writing.

When Camille just walked into Natalie's room, I thought this is EXACTLY why I wouldn't want to invite half the town to my house.

Man, Adora sucks. She has never even tried to hide that she doesn't like Camille. Even if Camille isn't a trustworthy narrator and her memories are biased, Adora takes every opportunity to pick at Camille which was made crystal clear when Amma was sobbing on the floor and Adora took that time to accuse Camille of being drunk at the Keenes' house. Seriously, Adora?

My mother's like that.  Cares more about what people think, than the well-being and safety of her own child.  She's always been quick to side with every single other person than me.  Wish I had cut her off when I was younger, instead of wasting so many bloody years trying to have some relationship with her.  What an effing waste.  Eff mothers like her and Adora.  Always making everything about THEM.  They find one tragedy in their lives and bring it up at every occasion and also use it as an excuse to get what they want - "Please come to this event... I can't, I've had a hard life"; "Would you like to donate to this charity?... I can't, I've had a hard life"; "Why are you behaving this way?... Because I've had a hard life." etc etc.

 

Agree with Richard's curiosity of why people were leaving flowers.  What, big-city folks don't do stuff like that?  Of course we do!  He's talking about it like he's never heard of such a thing.  Is everyone dead inside, where you live, Richard?

 

2 hours ago, zobot81 said:

It is a body-focused behavioral disorder, called trichotillomania.  It is closely related to OCD.  My mother had trichotillomania, and she had a bald spot on the top of her head where she pulled out each hair, one by one.  Her identical twin has also struggled with the disorder.  I have dermatillomania, which is compulsive skin-picking (and pretty much an alternative manifestation of hair pulling).  The things I can tell you about the behavior is that it's largely unconscious, mildly masochistic, and simultaneously meditative. In order to combat it, one has to become more grounded and aware of his or her behavior.  It also gets worse under stress.

It runs in families.  So does alcoholism.  And I imaging that Camille's self-cutting is a more severe manifestation of her mother's disorder.

I'm really sorry to hear that.  It sucks that at times of stress or when we're at our most vulnerable, we tend to do self-destructive things which make matters worse.  I get that way with depression, although I've been trying really hard to 'rewire' my thinking when I get to the bottom.  Therapy doesn't work for me, so I have to search high and low for different methods to distract myself, but I'm alone a lot throughout the day and there's only so much tv and movies I can watch.  The way you've described your dermatillomania sounds very similar to the way this lady I used know describing the reason why she cut - the preparation of disinfecting the cutting tools, anticipating the stinging and pain of the cutting, watching it bleed, watching it heal and form scabs over the next few days, release and repeat.  She takes anti-anxiety medication for it, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. 

 

I appreciate that when Natalie's mother was giving the eulogy, they kept the sound of people at church as real as possible.  No soft, atmospheric music in the background to 'soften' the overwhelming grief, fear and anger that the people must feel.  You could hear the weeping, sniffling, crying, but not in an overt way, just realistic.

Edited July 16, 2018 by SarahPrtr
.

[Blakeston]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When Richard told the barber what whoever was leaving flowers in the town square and where Natalie's body was found might be someone with a guilty conscience, I just rolled my eyes. Has he never lived in a town where there was a murder, a fatal car crash, or some other kind of death? Does he think that every person who left flowers at Paisley Park secretly murdered Prince and felt guilty about it? Flowers, balloons, stuffed animals, and other things are often left to memorialize a death, especially when it's a younger person who died. I don't think every person who leaves flowers has something to do with their death.

I think he was saying that the killer is likely to join the townspeople in mourning publicly and leaving objects in the person's memory - not that everyone who does that is motivated by guilt.

[applecrisp]

3 hours ago, zobot81 said:

It is a body-focused behavioral disorder, called trichotillomania.  It is closely related to OCD.  My mother had trichotillomania, and she had a bald spot on the top of her head where she pulled out each hair, one by one.  Her identical twin has also struggled with the disorder.  I have dermatillomania, which is compulsive skin-picking (and pretty much an alternative manifestation of hair pulling).  The things I can tell you about the behavior is that it's largely unconscious, mildly masochistic, and simultaneously meditative. In order to combat it, one has to become more grounded and aware of his or her behavior.  It also gets worse under stress.

It runs in families.  So does alcoholism.  And I imaging that Camille's self-cutting is a more severe manifestation of her mother's disorder.

Sorry to hear about Zobot. I know depression/anxiety run in my family, I have a brother who pulls out his eyebrows.  We all just went on vacation. I expressed to my brother S that T has depression and they may be partly why he is not properly taking care of his diabetes. I know my depression has made it hard to take care of myself at times.

It is still a taboo topic for some people and I don't know why.

It is time for mental Illness to come out of the shadows and be recognized.

[BigBlueMastiff]

4 hours ago, ferjy said:

So we have a few more words. “Scared” on her car door, “Whatever” on the pink sweatshirt on the hook, “fornicate” and part of “entice” (I’m figuring) etched into skin, and if you count the “Please wash you hands” sign on the wall in the morgue. 

I thought it said "sacred" on the car door.

[filmfan2480]

It said "scared" and then later it said "sacred" !!!  I'm pretty sure of this.  Haven't went back to look for sure.

Amy Adams is killing it so far.  Patricia Clarkson, too.  And I love the natural ease of the acting coming from Amy Adam's boss.  Whoever he is, his line readings are so great -- feel like I'm looking in on real life and not watching a "show".

And for me, this last episode flew.  I was allll into it.  And then boom, credits tolled.  

Edited July 16, 2018 by filmfan2480

[Teitr Styrr]

I thought it said "scared" too, and I was waiting for it to change to "scarred". I'm not sure why. I really like this. It's very surreal. I am fascinated by the story so far (both of them) and I have a couple of suspicions.  First, that Elizabeth Perkins character might not be real. I don't think I've seen anyone else interact with her. Second, that the "dad" character is the killer. I think I am just falling for their manipulations on that one tho.

[zobot81]

Thanks to everyone for your compassion -- truly, mental illness is coming out of the shadows, mostly in creative and artful ways (shows like this one and the movie "Hereditary" come most recently to mind).  TBH, I'm noticing art reflecting my deepest, darkest, most secret self more and more often over the past five years -- and it keeps ramping up. 

Adora, well. She is very much like my mother was. I don't feel like listing the ways, but I hope it goes without saying that I have no reason to lie about their unfortunate similarities.  It's getting easier to talk about my mom and how painful it was to be her daughter, and how eventually I didn't feel much of anything at all when she died last year.  And THAT.  That nothingness? That is the most taboo aspect of our relationship.  Most people cannot relate.  It's inhuman, right? Not loving your daughter?  It's even less human not to love your mother.  But coming to terms with who she was, how scary she was, how mean and dismissive and consuming and toxic she was -- all of those things amount to feeling nothing, if you're lucky.  In my mind, Camille needs to let go of the mother fantasy, of the dangling carrot of Adora's adulation.  It's never going to happen.  And she'll keep hurting herself until she realizes that whatever happened to her wasn't her fault.  And that love isn't something you win.  It's something that is freely given by people who have it to give.

I hope Camille is okay.  I hope we're all okay!  And I'm very grateful for shows like this that put demented families into words, into stories, and then bring them into our homes to be hashed out, or at least looked at.

[SarahPrtr]

19 minutes ago, BigBlueMastiff said:

I thought it said "sacred" on the car door.

They were both there - 'SCAred' when Camille was at Natalie's wake and 'SACred' when she went to the park to talk to the boys playing baseball.

[iMonrey]

Maybe I'm just post-Westworld weary of overly stylized storytelling but I'm not digging the random words showing up on cars and on walls and so forth. It just feels unnecessarily artsy-fartsy and it isn't adding anything to the story. I don't know if this comes from the books or what kind of significance it might play in the long run but as of now it's not informing me of anything.

I didn't understand what was happening with Amma at the end there. Does she have some sort of mental problem? She wasn't friends with the dead girl from what I can tell so I didn't buy the explanation for her just breaking down over that all of a sudden. 

And what's with the weird name spellings on this show anyway? I thought for sure the kid's name was Emma and the mother's names was Idora until I came here. I've never heard of anyone called Amma before. 

The cutting and the eyelash pulling is wigging me out. Ick.

[Penman61]

24 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Maybe I'm just post-Westworld weary of overly stylized storytelling but I'm not digging the random words showing up on cars and on walls and so forth. It just feels unnecessarily artsy-fartsy and it isn't adding anything to the story. I don't know if this comes from the books or what kind of significance it might play in the long run but as of now it's not informing me of anything.

 

(emphasis added)

I share this general skepticism about forced stylistic flourishes.  I will say that this show's aesthetic argument for them (my guess) is that it is establishing a motif (self-scarring, words to express what you can't say, grooves in records that make meaning, et al.) that comes directly from not only Camille's behavior but from a psychological dynamic that repression/suppression leads to inappropriate expression.  I think it's too early to tell whether these flourishes will pay off, and of course everyone's mileage may vary.  (And now I have to rewatch because I missed ALL OF THE WORDS this time around, lol.)

Edited July 16, 2018 by Penman61

[numbnut]

28 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Maybe I'm just post-Westworld weary of overly stylized storytelling but I'm not digging the random words showing up on cars and on walls and so forth. It just feels unnecessarily artsy-fartsy and it isn't adding anything to the story. I don't know if this comes from the books or what kind of significance it might play in the long run but as of now it's not informing me of anything.

I'm with you on this. I think the flashes are annoying because they're being overused in each ep, possibly because the narrative was deemed too slow without them. I'm already losing interest because the murder mystery premise is too familiar. I also need to rewatch this ep because it put me to sleep (despite the "wake up!" flashes).

[tennisgurl]

Amy Adams is just amazing in this part. I was a teeny bit skeptical (mainly because I pictured Camille in the book a little younger) but she is nailing it in every scene. She does a great job playing both dogged reporter and tragic small town daughter. Really, all the actors are doing well, even in minor roles, like the father of the murdered girl this week. They do a great job of seeming real, and not actors doing a bit. I especially like Camille's boss, he has a real warmth to him. 

Adora really is a piece of work. She might have her moments of humanity, but she doesn't even try to hide how much she is perpetually disappointed in Camille (both as a kid and as a adult) and how much she prefers both of her other daughters. Not to mention how she seems to really care more about what people think and their families "obligations to the community" than the fact that two kids are dead. Granted, most of the town seems to be like that, running as some kind of bitchy, southern gothic version of The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street, so I guess she fits in. 

I kind of agree with the sheriff that Richard is watching WAY too many cop shows in this investigation. Do people in his city not ever leave flowers for people who have died, or have shown interest in a case? I know that the whole "look for a person trying to get too involved in the investigation" is usually a good tip to go on, but in a small town, where everyone knows everyone, and everyone is up in everybody's business, thats not going to be much help. 

Amma was probably pulling some bullcrap during her fit earlier, she seems like the type to try to manipulate her mom like that. I did like the scene between Amma and Camille at the store, Amma really does seem to be excited about having a big sister, despite already giving off strong Mean Girls vibes. 

[BingeyKohan]

After hearing so much about this "Woman in White" AND Adora talking about trying to save the dead girl from a life spent playing in the woods and coming home dirty it's now impossible to miss the fact that Patricia Clarkson is dressed all in white in the show's branding. Of course, the second episode is way too early to point us in the right direction. But clearly we're supposed to think she's TWiW?

[zobot81]

Does anyone else think that Camille's publisher is also her dad? I mean, they haven't said anything about where or who her dad is (that I can remember), but their relationship seems way to familiar and personal to be strictly professional.  She doesn't call him "Dad" (obviously), but that can sometimes happen when parents become estranged from their children.

Also, I'm extremely skeptical of the reality of the family maid.  She's like a ghost coming in and out of the frame, barely saying anything.  I donno what the narrative value of this twist might be, I'm just kind of weirded out whenever she's on-screen, like a smiling prop.  It freaks me out and makes me uncomfortable.

[BingeyKohan]

15 minutes ago, zobot81 said:

Also, I'm extremely skeptical of the reality of the family maid.  She's like a ghost coming in and out of the frame, barely saying anything.  I donno what the narrative value of this twist might be, I'm just kind of weirded out whenever she's on-screen, like a smiling prop.  It freaks me out and makes me uncomfortable.

Agree - it's so Get Out-ish it makes me uneasy. And a recap I read noted she was hiding the knives when the camera lingered on her gathering them. I didn't get that, though it's much more plausible than my interpretation, which was just that she too may have a thing for Sharp Objects. Amma noticed her doing it, but I think that was just to show Amma picking up on the adults' odd behavior where Camille is concerned. 

[ferjy]

10 hours ago, SarahPrtr said:

They were both there - 'SCAred' when Camille was at Natalie's wake and 'SACred' when she went to the park to talk to the boys playing baseball.

Good catch everyone who caught that. I didn’t notice the change to “sacred” at the park.

13 hours ago, zobot81 said:

It is a body-focused behavioral disorder, called trichotillomania.  It is closely related to OCD.  My mother had trichotillomania, and she had a bald spot on the top of her head where she pulled out each hair, one by one.  Her identical twin has also struggled with the disorder.  I have dermatillomania, which is compulsive skin-picking (and pretty much an alternative manifestation of hair pulling).  The things I can tell you about the behavior is that it's largely unconscious, mildly masochistic, and simultaneously meditative. In order to combat it, one has to become more grounded and aware of his or her behavior.  It also gets worse under stress.

It runs in families.  So does alcoholism.  And I imaging that Camille's self-cutting is a more severe manifestation of her mother's disorder.

Yes, someone mentioned trichotillomania upthread. But we didn’t know until now that the husband knows about it so they’ve been dealing with it for a while. 

[zobot81]

24 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

Agree - it's so Get Out-ish it makes me uneasy. And a recap I read noted she was hiding the knives when the camera lingered on her gathering them. I didn't get that, though it's much more plausible than my interpretation, which was just that she too may have a thing for Sharp Objects. Amma noticed her doing it, but I think that was just to show Amma picking up on the adults' odd behavior where Camille is concerned. 

Prolly something to do with Camille's cutting.  Which grounds the character a bit more (so thank you).  But still, the look that Adora gives her when she holds holds out her hands, presumably to take the knife and apple from Adora, as if Adora herself is seeing a ghost-- it gave me the straight willies.  My husband rewound that part like three times, bc the scene unfolds so unnaturally and so bizarrely -- but he was more fixated on Camille's hands shaking as she ate the apple.

I had to remind him that she hadn't had anything to drink since she woke up.

[ferjy]

1 hour ago, numbnut said:

I'm with you on this. I think the flashes are annoying because they're being overused in each ep, possibly because the narrative was deemed too slow without them. I'm already losing interest because the murder mystery premise is too familiar. I also need to rewatch this ep because it put me to sleep (despite the "wake up!" flashes).

And the flashes are too short. Why bother putting them in if you can’t even see them? I don’t intend to stop and rewind in every scene. 

[ferjy]

2 hours ago, filmfan2480 said:

It said "scared" and then later it said "sacred" !!!  I'm pretty sure of this.  Haven't went back to look for sure.

Amy Adams is killing it so far.  Patricia Clarkson, too.  And I love the natural ease of the acting coming from Amy Adam's boss.  Whoever he is, his line readings are so great -- feel like I'm looking in on real life and not watching a "show".

And for me, this last episode flew.  I was allll into it.  And then boom, credits tolled.  

 

We all have different perceptions of course, but I groaned when I saw the actor, who has been terrible in every role I’ve seen him in. He’s older now, he hasn’t been around much lately. I don’t think they’re clamouring at his door offering roles. He may have a natural ease in this role because he’s probably playing himself. No acting required. :p

I agree about Amy Adams and Patricia Clarkson though. Patricia is always good, but Amy Adams is better than I've ever seen her.

Edited July 16, 2018 by ferjy

[ferjy]

2 hours ago, Teitr Styrr said:

I thought it said "scared" too, and I was waiting for it to change to "scarred". I'm not sure why. I really like this. It's very surreal. I am fascinated by the story so far (both of them) and I have a couple of suspicions.  First, that Elizabeth Perkins character might not be real. I don't think I've seen anyone else interact with her. Second, that the "dad" character is the killer. I think I am just falling for their manipulations on that one tho.

BIB 1 - I was thinking the same thing. I even made sure to check whether she was always wearing the same clothes which is usually a dead giveaway that the character isn't real. Ghosts and illusions never change clothing. But we've only seen her two times, so it's hard to tell for sure.

BIB 2 - And Henry Czerny usually plays a baddie! Sometimes we know who the culprit is because of the casting.

Edited July 16, 2018 by ferjy

[ElectricBoogaloo]

6 hours ago, Teitr Styrr said:

 I have a couple of suspicions.  First, that Elizabeth Perkins character might not be real. I don't think I've seen anyone else interact with her. 

At the funeral, Adora told Jackie to use her inside voice. She specifically said Jackie’s name, so if she’s a ghost then both Adora and Camille see/hear her. 

Edited July 16, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo

[SarahPrtr]

7 hours ago, zobot81 said:

 

Adora, well. She is very much like my mother was. I don't feel like listing the ways, but I hope it goes without saying that I have no reason to lie about their unfortunate similarities.  It's getting easier to talk about my mom and how painful it was to be her daughter, and how eventually I didn't feel much of anything at all when she died last year.  And THAT.  That nothingness? That is the most taboo aspect of our relationship.  Most people cannot relate.  It's inhuman, right? Not loving your daughter?  It's even less human not to love your mother.  But coming to terms with who she was, how scary she was, how mean and dismissive and consuming and toxic she was -- all of those things amount to feeling nothing, if you're lucky.  In my mind, Camille needs to let go of the mother fantasy, of the dangling carrot of Adora's adulation.  It's never going to happen.  And she'll keep hurting herself until she realizes that whatever happened to her wasn't her fault.  And that love isn't something you win.  It's something that is freely given by people who have it to give.

 

Sorry to hear about your mum.  It's difficult to talk to people about it, not because I'm embarrassed or scared they won't like me, but because they just don't seem to understand AT ALL, what it's like to have a mother who is NOT nurturing or supportive.  They give you the most irritating "But she's your mother" bullshit.  I don't want a Gilmore-Girls-esque type of relationship with my mother.  I just wanted her to be a warm, supportive, loving one.  But like Adora, she's one way with other people, and another way (her 'real' self) with me.  And since I don't have siblings, I have nobody to talk to about it.  Well, I guess there are also people whose parents made it really obvious that the 'other' child was their favourite.  Eff them.  Kind of like Beth (Mary Tyler Moore)  in 'Ordinary People', where she barely acknowledged Conrad after Bucky died.  Thank god Conrad's dad was there for him and was really kind.

 

I liked the way that Camille chugged her drink and slammed the cup down when Adora was chastising her about being in Natalie's room.  It's like she was saying FU to her mother without saying anything.

 

Can't stand people who always make everyone's tragedies about themselves.  Whenever something bad happens, they don't hesitate to bring up their own shit.  I don't mean in an empathetic, I-understand-and-feel-for-you way (I know the difference), but they want the attention back on them.  Again, Adora trying to make the death of those girls about her - how it's affecting HER,  how much SHE's hurting, how terrible it is... for HER.  Ergh.

 

They've kind of filmed the series with the assumption that the viewers already know what to expect from the storyline.  I can see why people would be confused or even bored with parts of it.  Especially when the episodes are shown weekly, and not all at once.

 

[Anela]

12 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When Richard told the barber what whoever was leaving flowers in the town square and where Natalie's body was found might be someone with a guilty conscience, I just rolled my eyes. Has he never lived in a town where there was a murder, a fatal car crash, or some other kind of death? Does he think that every person who left flowers at Paisley Park secretly murdered Prince and felt guilty about it? Flowers, balloons, stuffed animals, and other things are often left to memorialize a death, especially when it's a younger person who died. I don't think every person who leaves flowers has something to do with their death.

 

Right. We had something happen in a local town here, early last year. A little girl was murdered by her mother (or both parents, I can't remember, but the dad at least helped the mum to cover it up). People were out in search parties, looking for her, and after she was found, people continued to leave flowers and teddy bears there. It happened at a Chinese restaurant, but it's since been turned into something else. 

[Teitr Styrr]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

At the funeral, Adora told Jackie to use her inside voice. She specifically said Jackie’s name, so if she’s a ghost then both Adora and Camille see/hear her. 

Yep, she sure does. Oh well, was just a silly theory!

[ferjy]

14 minutes ago, Teitr Styrr said:

Yep, she sure does. Oh well, was just a silly theory!

Dang it. I forgot about that scene. So we’ve seen her 3 times. Well, maybe Adora does see ghosts too! 

[Morbs]

Quote

And the eyelash/hair pulling is a longtime thing. At least since Marian died. Adora pulling at her eyelashes at the funeral. And her husband knows (“you don’t want to look like a hairless cat”). 

 

I'm so stupid, I thought she was removing fake eyelashes.

I was just happy more characters mentioned her drinking because all during the first episode I kept thinking about how bad she must smell.

[Accidental Martyr]

9 hours ago, iMonrey said:

And what's with the weird name spellings on this show anyway? I thought for sure the kid's name was Emma and the mother's names was Idora until I came here. I've never heard of anyone called Amma before. 

 

Reminds me of the kid on Big Little Lies named Amabella.

[Black Knight]

9 hours ago, iMonrey said:

And what's with the weird name spellings on this show anyway? I thought for sure the kid's name was Emma and the mother's names was Idora until I came here. I've never heard of anyone called Amma before. 

I've never seen the spelling Idora, though obviously you must have. As for Adora, well, I take it you never watched She-Ra, Princess of Power, in which Adora was She-Ra's "real" name. ;) (though now they're rebooting that show for a new generation...) I've seen the name Adora elsewhere, but I always think of that show first!

Amma I'm not familiar with either, but I'm thinking it's not a coincidence that it has the same letters as Mama and that the pronunciation of Amma echoes Mama. Adora is clearly self-involved, probably narcissistic, and very invested in her identity of (terrible) mother.

Very telling that the entire funeral was held up waiting for Adora to take her seat - that explains why Alan was eager for them to leave the house to go to the funeral, because he knew they would be waiting for Adora. And Adora waved away his initial mention that they needed to leave; she knew they would wait, but didn't care about inconveniencing the girl's family. In fact, I'm sure she got a thrill out of holding up the whole damn funeral and thus being able to emphasize that she's a VIP in this town.

[ShellsandCheese]

15 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When Richard told the barber what whoever was leaving flowers in the town square and where Natalie's body was found might be someone with a guilty conscience, I just rolled my eyes. Has he never lived in a town where there was a murder, a fatal car crash, or some other kind of death? Does he think that every person who left flowers at Paisley Park secretly murdered Prince and felt guilty about it? Flowers, balloons, stuffed animals, and other things are often left to memorialize a death, especially when it's a younger person who died. I don't think every person who leaves flowers has something to do with their death.

 

An accidental death of a famous pop star is quite different than a murder. And he's right. That's like Homicide / Profiling 101. The assailants usually do exactly the type of things he was talking about: insert themselves in with the investigation, revisit the crime scene or the place they disposed of the body, leave a calling card, or take a momento. It was a bit cliched but very realistic. 

[TattleTeeny]

1 hour ago, ShellsandCheese said:

An accidental death of a famous pop star is quite different than a murder. And he's right. That's like Homicide / Profiling 101. The assailants usually do exactly the type of things he was talking about: insert themselves in with the investigation, revisit the crime scene or the place they disposed of the body, leave a calling card, or take a momento. It was a bit cliched but very realistic. 

I think the point being made by the original poster that was that the act of leaving flowers doesn't say much in this regard, as people all over the place do that kind of thing--I even see flowers and crosses along highways pretty often, presumably at the sites of fatal crashes. Flowers and mementos are generally left by mourners, whereas the murderer may do "profiling 101" things like show up at the memorial/vigil or a search party, the site of the crime (or the discovery site), or even frequent cop hangouts. Maybe they leave flowers or something sometimes, but it's not because that's what murderers do (or that flowers are a "calling card"), it's to not attract suspicion in a crowd of other people doing the same thing. 

[zobot81]

11 hours ago, SarahPrtr said:

Sorry to hear about your mum.  It's difficult to talk to people about it, not because I'm embarrassed or scared they won't like me, but because they just don't seem to understand AT ALL, what it's like to have a mother who is NOT nurturing or supportive.  They give you the most irritating "But she's your mother" bullshit.  I don't want a Gilmore-Girls-esque type of relationship with my mother.  I just wanted her to be a warm, supportive, loving one.  But like Adora, she's one way with other people, and another way (her 'real' self) with me.  And since I don't have siblings, I have nobody to talk to about it.  Well, I guess there are also people whose parents made it really obvious that the 'other' child was their favourite.  Eff them.  Kind of like Beth (Mary Tyler Moore)  in 'Ordinary People', where she barely acknowledged Conrad after Bucky died.  Thank god Conrad's dad was there for him and was really kind.

 

I liked the way that Camille chugged her drink and slammed the cup down when Adora was chastising her about being in Natalie's room.  It's like she was saying FU to her mother without saying anything.

 

Can't stand people who always make everyone's tragedies about themselves.  Whenever something bad happens, they don't hesitate to bring up their own shit.  I don't mean in an empathetic, I-understand-and-feel-for-you way (I know the difference), but they want the attention back on them.  Again, Adora trying to make the death of those girls about her - how it's affecting HER,  how much SHE's hurting, how terrible it is... for HER.  Ergh.

 

They've kind of filmed the series with the assumption that the viewers already know what to expect from the storyline.  I can see why people would be confused or even bored with parts of it.  Especially when the episodes are shown weekly, and not all at once.

 

And I am sorry to hear about your mother.  Us lonely kids gotta stick together, or at least stick up for each other, because we're not freaks.  Our experience with a primary parent, and in our case, our mothers -- yes, that is a freakish way to grow up.  But when we stop lying about the experience, if only to normalize it for other people out there who are/were raised by narcissistic parents, it's a tremendous victory.

I use the word "narcissistic" to describe your mother, and I hope you don't mind.  Of course, even if I was in a clinical position to diagnose anyone with a behavioral disorder, I shouldn't/wouldn't without meeting the person.  But as a fellow survivor of primary narcissists?  I feel totally comfortable offering you my condolences and (for what it's worth) I strongly believe that you should feel empowered by your experience.  It takes tremendous strength of character to survive a narcissistic upbringing. Most people like us have done our research and been to therapy.  But if you haven't, I recommend both.  Highly.

I also want to re-iterate the power that art has to expose the themes and consequences of family secrets, pathological abuse, and complex trauma.  See, the body never forgets catastrophic emotions and unprocessed trauma, and it will suffer.  I'm certain that Camille's cutting and carving of words into her flesh is the literal expression of such trauma, perhaps as yet unknown to us.  Drinking makes the rest of her waking life bearable.

Camille is in a lot of pain, which is hard for me to watch, but I refuse to look away.  I might learn something about myself.

Edited July 17, 2018 by zobot81

[msrachelj]

On 7/16/2018 at 7:29 AM, zobot81 said:

It is a body-focused behavioral disorder, called trichotillomania.  It is closely related to OCD.  My mother had trichotillomania, and she had a bald spot on the top of her head where she pulled out each hair, one by one.  Her identical twin has also struggled with the disorder.  I have dermatillomania, which is compulsive skin-picking (and pretty much an alternative manifestation of hair pulling).  The things I can tell you about the behavior is that it's largely unconscious, mildly masochistic, and simultaneously meditative. In order to combat it, one has to become more grounded and aware of his or her behavior.  It also gets worse under stress.

It runs in families.  So does alcoholism.  And I imaging that Camille's self-cutting is a more severe manifestation of her mother's disorder.

ocd, anxiety. i chew the inside of my cheek. so did at least one of my aunts. ahh, heredity.

On 7/16/2018 at 8:24 AM, BingeyKohan said:

I have watched Amy Adams in the Man of Steel/Batman Vs Superman/Justice League trilogy more times than I care to admit - and this is probably an unfair comparison since Lois Lane and Camille have little in common besides being newspaper reporters - but it's striking how much more compelling and believable Adams is here as a reporter. And as a human. Maybe I'm thinking specifically of how waxen she looked in Justice League (even seeming to wear a wig for some reason) but I love how natural she and unaffected she is in this. I read somewhere that because of scheduling oddities she filmed all her scenes first, which may explain why they largely take place in Camille's car, gazing in curiosity and horror through her windshield. but she even makes those pack a lot of punch.

Someone upthread mentioned the monstrosity of Adora taking a break from cradling Amma to chastise Camille. I wonder though if Adora too (deep down) knows that Amma is full of sh*t so she knew both the Amma fit and her own soothing of it were all just for show anyway. 

I am both creeped out and captivated by Elizabeth Perkins' character. I think now we'll just watch everybody and size up whether they're capable of pulling teeth with a pair of pliers. I also notice we have not yet been exposed to the conditions at Adora's hog-slaughtering operation and I am fine with putting that off as long as possible.

i must have missed that before. hog slaughtering operation. i did hear the mention in this episode. i do not want to see that. the pig head was bad enough. i  seriously need to become a non meat eater. as i get older, the thought of meat/animals is really starting to sicken me. as of now i'm eating organic, cruelty free, "one bad day"  meat, and chicken only. the cost will probably make me give it up alone!

speaking of tooth pulling. when the dentist does it, does he have a tool that makes it easier to pull? just thinking about all those females, not as strong, tooth pulling dentist out there!

adora should be seeing a psychiatrist. i notice how her husband pretty much ignores her. what a horrid woman.

On 7/16/2018 at 9:51 AM, SarahPrtr said:

My mother's like that.  Cares more about what people think, than the well-being and safety of her own child.  She's always been quick to side with every single other person than me.  Wish I had cut her off when I was younger, instead of wasting so many bloody years trying to have some relationship with her.  What an effing waste.  Eff mothers like her and Adora.  Always making everything about THEM.  They find one tragedy in their lives and bring it up at every occasion and also use it as an excuse to get what they want - "Please come to this event... I can't, I've had a hard life"; "Would you like to donate to this charity?... I can't, I've had a hard life"; "Why are you behaving this way?... Because I've had a hard life." etc etc.

Agree with Richard's curiosity of why people were leaving flowers.  What, big-city folks don't do stuff like that?  Of course we do!  He's talking about it like he's never heard of such a thing.  Is everyone dead inside, where you live, Richard?

I'm really sorry to hear that.  It sucks that at times of stress or when we're at our most vulnerable, we tend to do self-destructive things which make matters worse.  I get that way with depression, although I've been trying really hard to 'rewire' my thinking when I get to the bottom.  Therapy doesn't work for me, so I have to search high and low for different methods to distract myself, but I'm alone a lot throughout the day and there's only so much tv and movies I can watch.  The way you've described your dermatillomania sounds very similar to the way this lady I used know describing the reason why she cut - the preparation of disinfecting the cutting tools, anticipating the stinging and pain of the cutting, watching it bleed, watching it heal and form scabs over the next few days, release and repeat.  She takes anti-anxiety medication for it, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. 

I appreciate that when Natalie's mother was giving the eulogy, they kept the sound of people at church as real as possible.  No soft, atmospheric music in the background to 'soften' the overwhelming grief, fear and anger that the people must feel.  You could hear the weeping, sniffling, crying, but not in an overt way, just realistic.

 

On 7/16/2018 at 11:24 AM, iMonrey said:

Maybe I'm just post-Westworld weary of overly stylized storytelling but I'm not digging the random words showing up on cars and on walls and so forth. It just feels unnecessarily artsy-fartsy and it isn't adding anything to the story. I don't know if this comes from the books or what kind of significance it might play in the long run but as of now it's not informing me of anything.

I didn't understand what was happening with Amma at the end there. Does she have some sort of mental problem? She wasn't friends with the dead girl from what I can tell so I didn't buy the explanation for her just breaking down over that all of a sudden. 

And what's with the weird name spellings on this show anyway? I thought for sure the kid's name was Emma and the mother's names was Idora until I came here. I've never heard of anyone called Amma before. 

The cutting and the eyelash pulling is wigging me out. Ick.

i agree with you about the phantom words. and the way the town is so artfully, vintage-y depicted. no way there are really all those beautiful advertisement paintings still pristine on the sides of buildings etc.

for a woman who comes from loads of money, camille looks like trash. so, kudos to showing how her alcoholism and mental issues are affecting her "style" and grooming. her hair is killing me. she needs a cut. it's so 70's i don't care looking.  i see her and imagine how bad she must look up close and she probably smells.  at least it looks like she does. since amy adams is not a hollywood type beauty, she is making the physicality work. 

[zobot81]

15 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

At the funeral, Adora told Jackie to use her inside voice. She specifically said Jackie’s name, so if she’s a ghost then both Adora and Camille see/hear her. 

Wait a minute. Does Camille have DID?  Maybe Jackie and the maid are her alternates...ones that Adora is familiar with, after so many years.  Maybe Camille has had treatment and that's why she can function for the most part as herself, but under severe stress, the alternates take over.

omg. Whoa.

[Empress1]

2 hours ago, msrachelj said:

ocd, anxiety. i chew the inside of my cheek. so did at least one of my aunts. ahh, heredity. 

A good friend of mine bites her thumbs.

2 hours ago, msrachelj said:

for a woman who comes from loads of money, camille looks like trash. so, kudos to showing how her alcoholism and mental issues are affecting her "style" and grooming. her hair is killing me. she needs a cut. it's so 70's i don't care looking.  i see her and imagine how bad she must look up close and she probably smells.  at least it looks like she does. since amy adams is not a hollywood type beauty, she is making the physicality work. 

Oh, I think Amy Adams is very much a Hollywood-type beauty (especially her hair - she's probably putting her colorist's kid(s) through college), but I like that she's playing this kind of plain and unkempt. Her hair needs cutting and a deep conditioning SO BADLY. Her clothes are plain and she's not doing the Hollywood "never wear the same clothes twice" thing. She almost certainly smells not just of vodka but of BO since she wears long sleeves, pants, and boots in Missouri heat (I also like that sweat stains are a thing on this show). Even the way she stands and walks - she kind of makes herself smaller. She is clearly not a woman who takes care of herself at all - the self-harm and alcoholism are front and center for her. THAT'S how she "takes care of herself."

I kept thinking how bad that pig head must stink and then I wondered if the whole town reeked.

[Penman61]

Why haven't we talked about the catty ex-cheerleaders at the funeral reception?  I kept waiting for Camille to tell them she'd invented Post-Its.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Penman61

[BingeyKohan]

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

Why haven't we talked about the catty ex-cheerleaders at the funeral reception?  I kept waiting for Camille to tell them she'd invented Post-Its.

Ha! I'm from a small-ish town myself so this is no knock on small towns but I found it hard to believe they'd be so dazzled by St Louis, especially since they lived in Missouri. I could imagine talking like that about the biggest city a state over, especially if it's bigger than your own state's 'big city,' but not one in your own state.

[iMonrey]

Is there any significance to the maid getting right down on the floor where Adora had just been getting ready in her bedroom? It's like she was cleaning something specific but I didn't see anything on the floor.

Also, what exactly does Camille's editor think is wrong with her? Clearly he thinks she needs some kind of mental help or therapy. Does he think making her confront her childhood traumas will fix her? How about suggesting therapy for a start? 

[nachomama]

I think Camille's editor is dying. He's been coughing on the phone and he is trying to heal her so he can die in peace or something.

Not only did I notice the maid zeroing in but also the daughter was downstairs "scrubbing" the exact same spot in the doll house? freaky deaky mayn! When Camille opened either her mother's door or sister's door she kinda swiped her foot across and I wondered if the "dirt" of which they speak is like there is some kinda voodoo "dirt" aka "salt" sometimes they put on the threshold as a barrier for demons or such? I could just be crazy.

[msrachelj]

4 hours ago, Empress1 said:

A good friend of mine bites her thumbs.

Oh, I think Amy Adams is very much a Hollywood-type beauty (especially her hair - she's probably putting her colorist's kid(s) through college), but I like that she's playing this kind of plain and unkempt. Her hair needs cutting and a deep conditioning SO BADLY. Her clothes are plain and she's not doing the Hollywood "never wear the same clothes twice" thing. She almost certainly smells not just of vodka but of BO since she wears long sleeves, pants, and boots in Missouri heat (I also like that sweat stains are a thing on this show). Even the way she stands and walks - she kind of makes herself smaller. She is clearly not a woman who takes care of herself at all - the self-harm and alcoholism are front and center for her. THAT'S how she "takes care of herself."

I kept thinking how bad that pig head must stink and then I wondered if the whole town reeked.

i think amy adams is rather plain and not a beauty at all,  but we need real looking women on screen.

i can't imagine living near a slaughterhouse. a) i would wind up moving and b) i would give up meat.

[Empress1]

47 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Is there any significance to the maid getting right down on the floor where Adora had just been getting ready in her bedroom? It's like she was cleaning something specific but I didn't see anything on the floor.

Also, what exactly does Camille's editor think is wrong with her? Clearly he thinks she needs some kind of mental help or therapy. Does he think making her confront her childhood traumas will fix her? How about suggesting therapy for a start? 

Camille's editor knows she drinks - he said something like "she needs to stop thinking vodka doesn't smell on her." I don't know if he thinks she has a diagnosable mental illness like schizophrenia but he knows she's troubled.