S02.E13: The Word

[dleighg]

17 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Don't need theories anymore. 

Thanks! I was sort of hoping that very different color in VT and NH meant it was some sort of independent "People's Republic Of....". Oh well.... (My DD lives in PR of Cambridge, and my son is about to move to PR of San Francisco :) )

[dleighg]

15 minutes ago, dleighg said:

I was sort of hoping that very different color in VT and NH meant it was some sort of independent "People's Republic Of...."

Or maybe it is? I thought it was labeled New Gilead District  but it looks like VT and NH is actually a fighting zone?

Edited July 13, 2018 by dleighg

[Umbelina]

41 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Don't need theories anymore.  That link I posted above has the legible map in it, you can read the whole thing.  Click on the 3rd photo here.    It's easily enlarged and you can even read the legend.

https://twitter.com/VictoriaAtkin/status/1016565422169079809/photo/1

Thank you reddit user for figuring out how to copy it from that tweet! 

 

Still hard to read that bottom right section.  With some fiddling, I can read:

Protected by the Department of Gilead Military ????

Looks like escaping through the Great Lakes might be an idea, rebel held in some areas!

7 minutes ago, dleighg said:

Or maybe it is? I thought it was labeled New Republic of... but it looks like VT and NH is actually a fighting zone?

Grey is active fighting or rather "conflict area" red is rebel held.

Minor quibble, there is no way Utah and the Rocky Mountain area are held by so few military bases, I'm still not sure what the yellow areas of the map mean, anyone?  Perhaps not fighting areas, but still not really under Gilead control?

I hope someone with better photoshop skills can clear up that bottom left writing on the map for us.  Also, they really dumbed it down and blurred it for the show.  I think these were handed out at a premier or something to a special few?  Party gifts for Season Two finale?

Edited July 13, 2018 by Umbelina

[Cyranetta]

Quote

Loved:  Bradley Whitford and his field of Gilead fucks that is barren and shant be harvested anymore.

Besides agreeing wholeheartedly, I just love the way this was expressed.

[dleighg]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Grey is active fighting or rather "conflict area" red is rebel held.

 

Thanks. So getting from Boston to "rebel held" is closer than actually getting to Canada. And glad that VT is "strong." Fulfills my expectations!

[Umbelina]

13 minutes ago, dleighg said:

Thanks. So getting from Boston to "rebel held" is closer than actually getting to Canada. And glad that VT is "strong." Fulfills my expectations!

ALL credit for the below to this article from Post Apocalypic Media  (much more great stuff in this article as well):  https://www.postapocalypticmedia.com/handmaids-tale-map-gilead/

Zooming in on the legend, it looks like the green areas (and the areas marked with nuke signs) are “Atomic Wasteland.” Then there are areas outside of them marked “hazardous risk zone.” The orangey areas are marked “rebel occupied area.” So you can clearly see that Gilead controls the blueish areas in northeast, which are marked New Gilead District, the Eastern District, the Atlantic District,  the Midwest District, and East Central District. Then the pinkish areas are also Gilead controlled: Northwest district, Northern district, Southern district, Gulf district, and South East district. Then there are the yellowish areas on the map, which are colonies: Eastern Colonies District, Western Colonies District, and Southwest District. And it appears the black dots are Gilead military bases, which could explain how they were able to get oranges from Florida.

Creator Bruce Miller talked with The Wrap and said, “Yes, Gilead has taken over the continental U.S., so all 48 states of the continental US. There’s lots of areas that are not nearly as well controlled as the Boston area, where the movement was very strong… Alaska and Hawaii are the United States, the two states that are united still. And the rest of it has turned into Gilead with lots of pockets of resistance and unease and the places where the grip of Gilead is not nearly as firm.”

The map seen during the finale’s premiere in LA sheds more light on the map that Waterford was looking at and which we saw on TV. The deep red areas are rebel-controlled. Pink is controlled by Gilead (but I guess maybe a different faction of Gilead than the one Waterford is part of?) The yellow areas are colonies, blue is another Gilead controlled area (by people Waterford is connected to or Waterford himself.) Look at it again with that in mind:

ETA

(me again)

For clarity in this post, this is what we saw on the show.  Why did they only show this, and then give out clearer maps as party favors?  Also, this map has different (illegible) legends.  Or at least, the placement of them is different.

Do you guys think we need a thread for all the various maps and talking about them, or would that be overkill?

Edited July 13, 2018 by Umbelina
clarity, added map

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, chaifan said:

I'll disagree with you on this one.  I have to believe that even the most religious Gilead-supportive of the wives never would have willingly given away their right to read.  I could see them on board for banning certain books, newspapers or publications, but not wholesale banning reading for women, to the point that food labels are in pictures.  If there was any issue that I could see all of them agreeing on, it would be this one.

Especially when it comes to reading the Bible. Carrying around an annotated Bible like Eden's is pretty common among the churchgoers I know.

[Umbelina]

Wow, look how close the rebel held areas are to Boston!  Hell, they don't even have to make it to Canada to make it to safety, they are just a couple of hours away!

Which begs the question, why didn't Moira run into active fighting, and the rebel controlled part of the country during her escape?  Did she get lost and veer through Buffalo or Utica NY or ?

Edited July 13, 2018 by Umbelina

[secnarf]

22 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Fred has to cover his own ass.  If he admits HIS household was responsible, he will pay.  He's already made too many errors.  If he can blame all of this on crazy Emily?  He would, IMO, do so in a heartbeat.  He and Serena just talked about hanging on the wall side by side, they know they aren't immune to Gilead's "justice" AND his wife just stepped out of line in front of all the other Commanders as well. 

That's one downside of all of that patriarchy.  They will blame him for being unable to control his own household.  Ditto if he has to say his own guardian threatened him.  Fred's taken enough steps toward the gallows, he won't willingly take more.  Uncontrollable wife, guardian, Martha, AND handmaid?  Bye bye Freddie.  He knows it.

I still don't get why that would make Fred want to arrange visits for June with Hannah? That hardly seems like a way to cover his own ass. June has to realize she can't count on him to keep his word, or she is dumber than a wall of bricks.

[lavenderblue]

Just rewatched the premiere and they totally telegraphed June's decision there. In the final flashback, when she comes home with sick Hannah and Luke is watching the news coverage of the attack on Washington, June is pulled away from watching it by Hannah's repeated insistence that June stay with her in her room as she tries to sleep. June's last words to her there are "I'll stay."

[dleighg]

8 hours ago, lavenderblue said:

June's last words to her there are "I'll stay."

I also hope that this was telegraphing: that just as June promised Holly after her birth "I'll get you out of here" (and did, apparently) in the finale she promised Holly/Nichole "You *will* meet Hannah". 

[Trillian]

18 hours ago, chaifan said:

I'll disagree with you on this one.  I have to believe that even the most religious Gilead-supportive of the wives never would have willingly given away their right to read.  I could see them on board for banning certain books, newspapers or publications, but not wholesale banning reading for women, to the point that food labels are in pictures.  If there was any issue that I could see all of them agreeing on, it would be this one.  And, there's safety in numbers, so once Serena and Naomi come forward, and another does, and another, and so on.  (We don't actually know if all of them participated, some may have said no.  We just know there were a lot.)  Also, with Fred being so high up, they probably figured that if Serena was doing the asking it would be granted.  And, I would also guess that like Serena, most do read in private at home and their husbands know about it, so again, they probably figured it was safe.  Remember, the were only asking for girls to be allowed to read the bible.  One book. 

I hope they use this, and Serena's finger chop, as a way to get some of the wives to turn against their husbands ever so slightly, maybe one or two start helping the Martha network or something like that.  They all have to realize their lives are shit if something doesn't change. 

When you think about it, the whole plotline about forbidding reading for women is a pretty stupid, and rather implausible, idea in the first place, given that the women in the story are already literate. I know Atwood based “everything” (or so she claimed) that the women suffered on things that actually have happened somewhere at some time, but has anyone ever banned reading for people who already know how to read?  Because once you know how to read, it’s impossible to look at a written word and not read it.   For this to work, even the men can’t read in public - things like the names of stores or products or street names or train stops (I can’t remember if, in the first season, the subway stops had names - I think they did - but I’m pretty sure the GO Train June took with the econowives had the stop names replaced).   As an experiment, I just took a stroll through the first floor of my house looking for the written word.  Discounting the books and the magazines, I found product labels on everything (of course), writing on my husband’s baseball cap, on awards and certificates, on framed prints, the cookie jar with the word “cookies” on it, “welcome” on the mat - to name but a few. Gilead would have to have massive industry dedicated  just to removing writing from everything and replacing it with pictographs. Why would the men bother with subjecting themselves to all that, even assuming it could be done?  

[JasonCC]

Actually reading the discussion here makes it more plausible that Eden could have represented some turning point for Serena Joy and to a lesser degree Naomi. The Gilead wives' generation were probably still sneaking in a little reading at home while publicly feigning piety about women not needing to read, better off being led by their husbands, etc. Poor Eden was a younger, transitional generation (and her father was clearly a fanatic, true believer so may have never put her in a school at all pre full blown Gilead) and that Bible found showed how desperate she was to read and find solace in the word of God for herself. By Angela and Holly/Nicole's generation? Complete female illiteracy will be easier to maintain, all girls primed to be nothing but breeding fillies at 14/15. Serena's Gilead regret had been showing a lot this season, which made her cling more desperately to the idea of June's baby. But I think Eden and her Bible did spark Serena to think forward to her daughter's life and realize there might not be any special carve-outs for her.

Edited July 14, 2018 by JasonCC

[LeGrandElephant]

On 7/13/2018 at 12:38 AM, Umbelina said:

there is no chance Utah would go along with Gilead's version of religion, none.

What makes you say that?

 

re the map, look how close that one rebel zone is to Boston! Season 3?

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, LeGrandElephant said:

What makes you say that?

 

re the map, look how close that one rebel zone is to Boston! Season 3?

I grew up there.  They are prepared for disasters of all kinds, and they just would not give up their religion, or honestly, want anyone else to give up their own, unless it was to convert to LDS.  Also there is only one dot (military base) and I don't think ONE would hold that area.   Then again, that zone is yellow, and I think that may mean something like "Well, no active fighting, but not really Gilead blue either."

I love that the west coast is deep red too, but I'm kind of surprised by the deep south, you'd think they'd be all for Gilead in many ways, maybe they mixed book canon in when they made that map though. 

I can't tell from the maps, which is newest and which is oldest, are they gaining ground or losing ground?

Edited July 14, 2018 by Umbelina

[DrSpaceman]

I really don't know how Gilead would be able to take over the whole country. 

I know there seems to be fighting and dispute in places, but even so, it seems implausible if you think too much about it.  Which is why the show will probably delve too much into it or offer more than glimpses of explanations. 

[Baltimore Betty]

6 hours ago, Trillian said:

Why would the men bother with subjecting themselves to all that, even assuming it could be done?  

I'd be thrown for a loop without the PUSH/PULL signs on a door, lol.

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I grew up there.  They are prepared for disasters of all kinds, and they just would not give up their religion, or honestly, want anyone else to give up their own, unless it was to convert to LDS.  Also there is only one dot (military base) and I don't think ONE would hold that area.   Then again, that zone is yellow, and I think that may mean something like "Well, no active fighting, but not really Gilead blue either."

I love that the west coast is deep red too, but I'm kind of surprised by the deep south, you'd think they'd be all for Gilead in many ways, maybe they mixed book canon in when they made that map though. 

I can't tell from the maps, which is newest and which is oldest, are they gaining ground or losing ground?

As someone who is from the deep south, and now lives in the heart of Appalachia, I can see why you might think that our region would be open to Gilead ideas (especially the religious aspects) but I really don't see it. Despite the general conservative nature of the region, and voting history, we have a VERY low tolerance when it comes to people "telling us what to do" and we are known for rebeling just for the sake of rebellion. You will find vast pockets of people religious denominations who don't believe that women should wear pants, for instance, but if a law was made that said women COULDN'T wear pants, those would be the same people who'd be out protesting. Politically and religiously we might argue amongst ourselves, but our contrariness is strong. In general, we don't like the government telling us what we can't do-even if we agree with what they're telling us we can't do. 

 

I host viewing parties for THT. We all come from various political, economic, and religious backgrounds but the one thing we can all agree on is that Gilead sucks.

[Clanstarling]

8 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

As someone who is from the deep south, and now lives in the heart of Appalachia, I can see why you might think that our region would be open to Gilead ideas (especially the religious aspects) but I really don't see it. Despite the general conservative nature of the region, and voting history, we have a VERY low tolerance when it comes to people "telling us what to do" and we are known for rebeling just for the sake of rebellion. You will find vast pockets of people religious denominations who don't believe that women should wear pants, for instance, but if a law was made that said women COULDN'T wear pants, those would be the same people who'd be out protesting. Politically and religiously we might argue amongst ourselves, but our contrariness is strong. In general, we don't like the government telling us what we can't do-even if we agree with what they're telling us we can't do. 

 

I host viewing parties for THT. We all come from various political, economic, and religious backgrounds but the one thing we can all agree on is that Gilead sucks.

Beat me to it. Didn't grow up there, but my family is from the deep south, and that contrary nature abides wherever they are. And it's rubbed off just a bit. ;)

[NoSpam]

9 hours ago, dleighg said:

I also hope that this was telegraphing: that just as June promised Holly after her birth "I'll get you out of here" (and did, apparently) in the finale she promised Holly/Nichole "You *will* meet Hannah". 

Actually, what she said was, "This is your sister. Hannah. Isn't she beautiful?Maybe you'll meet her someday."

Personally, if that day is after 10 seasons of Bruce Miller mansplaining women's oppression, I won't be around to see it.

IMO too much time is invested in June fretting about her children, when her own life *should* be in imminent danger. Does anyone else remember the cheesy Lifetime-ish movie, "Not Without My Daughter"? The show is in that same territory, cheesy melodrama.

The book made much more sense in its treatment of June's attitude toward Hannah, and her realistic analysis of the odds of getting her out. It's like Show June  knows she has Executive Producer armor. She acts like everything is possible, if she just sticks around Gilead long enough. Somehow the worst infractions she commits are never punished. The worst we've seen June suffer is a few weeks spent in her room.

Edited July 14, 2018 by NoSpam

[Umbelina]

I'm thinking the yellow areas are '"colonies" so under Gilead control, not actively fighting, but not quite living by Gilead rules.  ?

[dleighg]

11 minutes ago, NoSpam said:

Actually, what she said was, "This is your sister. Hannah. Isn't she beautiful?Maybe you'll meet her someday."

 

Right after that she said "You're gonna meet her"

 

[NoSpam]

1 minute ago, dleighg said:

Right after that she said "You're gonna meet her"

 

I stand corrected. Missed that because I was eye-rolling to hard to read closed captioning.

[Clanstarling]

10 minutes ago, NoSpam said:

IMO too much time is invested in June fretting about her children, when her own life *should* be in imminent danger. Does anyone else remember the cheesy Lifetime-ish movie, "Not Without My Daughter"? The show is in that same territory, cheesy melodrama.

Yeah, the movie might have been cheesy, but the real life experience it was based on wasn't and did have some strong resonances with Handmaid's, given the woman in question was smuggling her daughter out of post-revolution Iran. So yep, there are a lot of similarities. For me, however, they're not on the cheesy end of the scale. Especially since I actually knew another woman who had to do the same thing.

[NoSpam]

8 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Yeah, the movie might have been cheesy, but the real life experience it was based on wasn't and did have some strong resonances with Handmaid's, given the woman in question was smuggling her daughter out of post-revolution Iran. So yep, there are a lot of similarities. For me, however, they're not on the cheesy end of the scale. Especially since I actually knew another woman who had to do the same thing.

Yeah, I know a woman who was forced to marry a powerful foreigner at age 12 and moved to a small country in SE Asia. (Not revealing too many details because, doxxing). It took her 10 years to be able to slip her security while out shopping one day and get to the US embassy. She lives under a new name and her kids are still with the father.

 

So I do know these things happen. I just think the show is handling them badly.

[Veronimo]

14 minutes ago, NoSpam said:

The book made much more sense in its treatment of June's attitude toward Hannah, and her realistic analysis of the odds of getting her out. It's like Show June  knows she has Executive Producer armor. She acts like everything is possible, if she just sticks around Gilead long enough. Somehow the worst infractions she commits are never punished. The worst we've seen June suffer is a few weeks spent in her room.

I'll disagree here. As a "fallen" woman, she is punished by having her child taken from her and becoming a Handmaid. She's been hit with the cattle prod several times, had some sort of insane foot torture, been hit and choked by Serena, raped every month (par for the course), extra brutally raped by Fred and Serena ostensibly to speed the birth along but also to remind her of her place, had Hannah's safety threatened by Serena, chained to a bed while pregnant, mentally tortured in countless ways (fake hanging, death of secret Muslim Mayday man, forced to eat while her fellow Handmaids had their hands burned on a stove, etc. etc. ad nauseum). It's true she hasn't lost a limb or an eye or , but in traditional storytelling terms she is the heroine of this tale and as such I think that the viewing audience, to some extent, needs her to be physically whole. It does take her to a superhuman level, but it is Hollywood, after all. Suspension of disbelief required! 

[NoSpam]

Just now, Veronimo said:

 It's true she hasn't lost a limb or an eye or , but in traditional storytelling terms she is the heroine of this tale and as such I think that the viewing audience, to some extent, needs her to be physically whole. It does take her to a superhuman level, but it is Hollywood, after all. Suspension of disbelief required! 

I should have been more clear. I wasn't talking about suffering, I meant punishment for infractions.

 

Aunt Lydia has doled out punishment. But the Waterfords have been weak,IMO.  June runs away multiple times, no punishment. She slaps Fred, yells at Fred, tells Fred to go fuck himself, tells Fred he's not the father... No punishment. Even the Exceptionally Awful Rape wasn't a punishment, just something done to get the baby out.

[kieyra]

On 7/13/2018 at 12:14 AM, hokiefan said:

Surprised I dont see more talk about the map! 

I believe the train was a hint about how June might be able to go on the run. Not sure how she would be able to find the resistance though.

If the show writers are really demented they start S3 with the getaway vehicle getting stopped and blown up by guardians. 

The map confuses the hell out of me, because "Gilead" looks like it comprises what I tend to think of as a lot of coastal liberal area.

And if red = skirmishing, how would Texas and the Gulf coast NOT be supporting Gilead? 

I'm making sweeping generalizations based on prior election maps, of course. It just seems like, geographically, the reverse of the way this would all happen. 

I also assume those nuclear symbols are supposed to be spills or reactor accidents. They don't look like likely nuclear warfare targets.

[marinw]

On 7/11/2018 at 8:58 AM, AllyB said:

Strength training like push-ups and sit-ups are simple, silent and extremely effective. Cardio would be harder as it can create impact noise and if the handmaid had no pre-Gilead training they wouldn't necessarily know any silent moves but they have plenty of time to work out ways to get their heart-rate pumping if they want it enough.

Now I’m fantasizing about a secret society of Aunts, Econowives, and Marthas forming a super-secret fight club, taught by women with martial arts training from Before.

Edited July 15, 2018 by marinw

[millennium]

June will play a crucial role in the Resistance next season.   She will show all Resistance fighters how to confront and defeat every conceivable conflict with an unblinking, constipated expression.   Gilead will fall while waiting for something else to happen.

This show can fuck off.

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, kieyra said:

The map confuses the hell out of me, because "Gilead" looks like it comprises what I tend to think of as a lot of coastal liberal area.

And if red = skirmishing, how would Texas and the Gulf coast NOT be supporting Gilead? 

I'm making sweeping generalizations based on prior election maps, of course. It just seems like, geographically, the reverse of the way this would all happen. 

I also assume those nuclear symbols are supposed to be spills or reactor accidents. They don't look like likely nuclear warfare targets.

The legible map I posted makes it clear that red is occupied territory and gray is where the active fighting is.

yes, those are nuclear accidents sites

[DrSpaceman]

5 hours ago, mamadrama said:

As someone who is from the deep south, and now lives in the heart of Appalachia, I can see why you might think that our region would be open to Gilead ideas (especially the religious aspects) but I really don't see it. Despite the general conservative nature of the region, and voting history, we have a VERY low tolerance when it comes to people "telling us what to do" and we are known for rebeling just for the sake of rebellion. You will find vast pockets of people religious denominations who don't believe that women should wear pants, for instance, but if a law was made that said women COULDN'T wear pants, those would be the same people who'd be out protesting. Politically and religiously we might argue amongst ourselves, but our contrariness is strong. In general, we don't like the government telling us what we can't do-even if we agree with what they're telling us we can't do. 

 

I host viewing parties for THT. We all come from various political, economic, and religious backgrounds but the one thing we can all agree on is that Gilead sucks.

I am no pro-gun advocate, but in the situation where a group like Gilead would come and try to take over, I can see the millions of personal guns quickly being put to good use to resist it

[NoSpam]

8 hours ago, millennium said:

June will play a crucial role in the Resistance next season.   She will show all Resistance fighters how to confront and defeat every conceivable conflict with an unblinking, constipated expression.   Gilead will fall while waiting for something else to happen.

This show can fuck off.

She'll teach the resistance fighters how to rush in slow motion, and look out windows when they're hiding.

Edited July 15, 2018 by NoSpam

[Lemons]

I just watched this .  WTF?  June slaps Fred and he doesn’t cut off a hand?  Serena willingly gives up her baby, the only thing that gives her a reason to live?  The head of Gilead goes out of his way to free June and the other one?  And then June leaves her baby in the hands of another unstable handmaid.  

June would have been much better off going to Canada and fighting from there.  She lived with a high ranking officer.  And the way she was always sashaying into their bedrooms and office, she helped edit govt papers, she must have known plenty.  She would have been a valuable asset.   But no, we wouldn’t have been able to witness her staring willfully into the camera as she put on her red cape looking like a demented demon.  

[nodorothyparker]

After being thoroughly spoiled on this one, it sounded amateurish enough that I didn't feel any big push to get in any hurry to watch it.  Now that I've seen it, though ... I didn't hate it.  That said, it was kind of a mess of an episode with some lovely visuals and individual scenes that worked really well with the larger overall idea, but it also contained some real moments of WTFery like June talking about how she slept with Eden's husband in the kitchen.  Okay, sure, it was a funny line and it is pretty much common knowledge within the household, but it's also one of those things that it seems basic common sense that they'd all keep pretending they don't know to cover their own asses.  It's like the show isn't even bothering to make any pretense anymore that everyone in the Waterford house isn't doing whatever the hell they want.  Nick wants to hang out in June's room?  He and June play happy family with the baby they're not supposed to be claiming?  Rita openly calls June Nick's girlfriend?  Sure, why not.

If I'm wanting to put a positive spin on it, I can sort of see all this as examples of how Gilead's control isn't as absolute as advertised, that the Waterford house in particular is just an extreme example of all of this being so dysfunctional that it's all they can do to keep up appearances.  That explanation could I guess also cover whatever is going on in the Lawrence household.  I think we're supposed to connect the dots on Commander Lawrence that he's such a very big deal in the founding of Gilead that everyone is just going to shrug off whatever eccentricities he may now be showing.  That's certainly not unheard of in authoritarian regimes.   Or all of this could just be the show getting sloppy.

Emily stabbing Lydia was clearly supposed to be a big go go girl power moment.  I get that because I felt it too.  Initially, though, I found myself a little annoyed at the seeming irrationality of it.  She's in about a safe a place as she's likely to find within the confines of Gilead where no one is asking a damn thing of her and she picks that moment to stab Lydia in the back just for running her mouth?  But that thinking discounts that she's not free.  She's missing her son.  And she clearly feels the trauma and indignity of the handmaid existence to the point that she's not able to join in the gallows humor of at least joking about the coming ritual rape.  It helps that Alexis Bledel was absolutely magnificent in showing that she did think of all that.  She knew how stupid it was from the go along to get along standpoint and was near hyperventilating over how completely fucked she was, and she was able to convey all that with almost no lines.

I did like the through lines of Serena slowly coming to accept what June had been trying to tell her from the beginning.  When first presented with Eden's Bible, she was still parroting the Gilead party line that of course it was Eden's fault.  That she'd sinned.  Serena was still trying to make that fit when hit with the revelation that it was Eden's father who'd turned her in and was thus responsible for her death.   If this man who claimed to love his daughters could do that, what could she expect from Fred, who knows he's not Nichole's father and seems to have little interest in her beyond using her to bait June or advance his own career?  By the time of the godawful wives' party, she was chewing on what it meant for her own "daughter" that she wouldn't even be able to read the basis for their society for herself.  Serena is like a lot of people, even a bit like what we've seen of Luke.  It's not necessarily a pressing problem until it's a problem for them.  So it doesn't feel like a huge stretch that Eden, a girl she knew personally who lived in her household and who she knew to be sincere, could be a tipping point for her.  And because Serena's been the relatively privileged wife through all this, she thought she still had the power to make what seemed to her like a perfectly reasonable request.  Too bad for her that even after Commander Fred beat her for previously getting above "her place," Serena failed to recognize that Fred is drunk with power now and wasn't going to passively accept his wife showing him up or shaming him in front of the other commanders. 

It doesn't have to be a redemption for her basic humanity to at least momentarily win out in realizing that if they could do that to her, who was once someone educated and important, that there would be little hope in another 15 or so years for an illiterate girl who had no idea of anything but Gilead.  While I don't doubt that being hopped up on pain killers probably figured into her passivity in letting June leave with the baby, in that moment she also no longer has any illusions that she has any power to protect her when the time comes.  None of that changes who she is.

I don't have to love that June chose to stay to understand why she did it.  I'd have a hard time abandoning one of my daughters to the mercies of Gilead too if I thought I had any possible shot at getting them out, no matter how small.  All the reasons that the baby had to get out also apply to Hannah, and because Hannah is older there's actually more urgency on her part.  The clock is ticking for her before her best-case scenario of being married off as a young teen to be a broodmare.  As much as I hated the decision as a spoiler, I can also now see why June would think that she'd have better chance of success not trying to do this from Canada.  Luke has been sitting up there how long and he's accomplished what?  In staying she has Nick and his shadowy connections.  She now knows about the Marthas' network.  She knows Hannah's new name, the name of her "parents," and the location of at least their summer house.  She's seen Lawrence's face, so she knows there's at least one commander involved who might be sympathetic.  How she accomplishes all this I don't know.  She's walking around alone at night still in her handmaid garb after childishly scrawling her big fuck you equivalent on the wall at the Waterford house.   I feel like the show wants me to see that ending flipping the hood up as another one of those defiant "fuck that" turning point moments of June's, but without more to go on it mostly comes off as impulsive, haphazard, and unearned.

[Cameron326]

Quote

It's like Show June  knows she has Executive Producer armor. She acts like everything is possible, if she just sticks around Gilead long enough. Somehow the worst infractions she commits are never punished. The worst we've seen June suffer is a few weeks spent in her room.

That’s my biggest problem with the show right now in a nutshell. June seems increasingly exempt from the threats all around her and she has gained an air of invincibility “I’m just going to stick around a bit longer and see who else I can save”. If she was keeping a low profile and keeping her head down as she was for much of season one I could buy it. But the fact is she’s constantly snarling and backtalking and giving the death stare to every authority figure she comes in contact with. For me, the show writers/Moss needs to tone it down a bit if they want to retain any believability. Yes, Waterford is a wet fish, but she’s (supposed to be) surrounded by armed to the teeth religious fundamentalists. That sense of danger and “one misstep and it’s all over” is currently sorely lacking.

Edited July 15, 2018 by Cameron326

[dleighg]

4 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

real moments of WTFery like June talking about she slept with Eden's husband

The thing that bothered me about that was that while technically true, isn't it also true that they have not slept together since Eden showed up on the scene? So she actually didn't do anything bad to Eden, which is what she seemed to be making Rita feel better about. As in "you were mean to her, I cheated with her husband."

[alexvillage]

On 7/13/2018 at 9:47 PM, lavenderblue said:

Just rewatched the premiere and they totally telegraphed June's decision there. In the final flashback, when she comes home with sick Hannah and Luke is watching the news coverage of the attack on Washington, June is pulled away from watching it by Hannah's repeated insistence that June stay with her in her room as she tries to sleep. June's last words to her there are "I'll stay."

If you are right, the writers get a very small fraction of redemption for continuity and for making sense. Good catch.

[GreekGeek]

I won't repeat what others have said about being disappointed that June chose to stay in Gilead. I wish June had left and Emily had stayed, so that we could have gotten more of her life in Commander Lawrence's household. I wanted to see more of Eleanor (Mrs. Lawrence) and Cora.

One question that may have been answered and I just wasn't paying attention: How did that fire start? Was it one of the Marthas? If so, was it Rita? Or Nick? Or someone else entirely? Or was it purely accidental and the Marthas decided to take advantage to smuggle June out? It was too well organized to be hastily improvised.

[nodorothyparker]

2 hours ago, dleighg said:

The thing that bothered me about that was that while technically true, isn't it also true that they have not slept together since Eden showed up on the scene? So she actually didn't do anything bad to Eden, which is what she seemed to be making Rita feel better about. As in "you were mean to her, I cheated with her husband."

That is true.  June and Nick haven't actually had sex since he was issued Eden.  But Eden picked up on it enough to accuse Nick of being involved with June and June did have reassure her that she probably wouldn't be around much longer (because of the baby situation) to be any kind of threat.  By itself, the line was actually funny.  Oh, you feel bad because you were visibly annoyed by her eager beaver helpfulness?  Yeah, I can top that.  The issue was how openly they were acknowledging a situation that Nick admitted in that earlier confrontation with Eden would be suicide for all of them if discovered.  Maybe they figure it doesn't matter since Serena and Fred both already know, but it also suggests a larger carelessness with house secrets when their entire society is built on the fiction that Serena and Fred as supposed paragons of that society are the baby's "real parents."

[Clanstarling]

13 hours ago, millennium said:

June will play a crucial role in the Resistance next season.   She will show all Resistance fighters how to confront and defeat every conceivable conflict with an unblinking, constipated expression.   Gilead will fall while waiting for something else to happen.

This show can fuck off.

While I still like the show - with all its frustrations, this is delicious snark. Thank you.

8 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I did like the through lines of Serena slowly coming to accept what June had been trying to tell her from the beginning.  When first presented with Eden's Bible, she was still parroting the Gilead party line that of course it was Eden's fault.  That she'd sinned.  Serena was still trying to make that fit when hit with the revelation that it was Eden's father who'd turned her in and was thus responsible for her death.   If this man who claimed to love his daughters could do that, what could she expect from Fred, who knows he's not Nichole's father and seems to have little interest in her beyond using her to bait June or advance his own career?  By the time of the godawful wives' party, she was chewing on what it meant for her own "daughter" that she wouldn't even be able to read the basis for their society for herself.  Serena is like a lot of people, even a bit like what we've seen of Luke.  It's not necessarily a pressing problem until it's a problem for them.  So it doesn't feel like a huge stretch that Eden, a girl she knew personally who lived in her household and who she knew to be sincere, could be a tipping point for her.  And because Serena's been the relatively privileged wife through all this, she thought she still had the power to make what seemed to her like a perfectly reasonable request.  Too bad for her that even after Commander Fred beat her for previously getting above "her place," Serena failed to recognize that Fred is drunk with power now and wasn't going to passively accept his wife showing him up or shaming him in front of the other commanders. 

It doesn't have to be a redemption for her basic humanity to at least momentarily win out in realizing that if they could do that to her, who was once someone educated and important, that there would be little hope in another 15 or so years for an illiterate girl who had no idea of anything but Gilead.  While I don't doubt that being hopped up on pain killers probably figured into her passivity in letting June leave with the baby, in that moment she also no longer has any illusions that she has any power to protect her when the time comes.  None of that changes who she is.

I really love this analysis, and agree that it leads to Serena's decision. She went from thinking she had power because of her role in the creation of Gilead and her position (her husband's really), to knowing, absolutely, she had none, during this season. Life is hard when the lies you tell yourself come crashing down.

1 hour ago, GreekGeek said:

I won't repeat what others have said about being disappointed that June chose to stay in Gilead. I wish June had left and Emily had stayed, so that we could have gotten more of her life in Commander Lawrence's household. I wanted to see more of Eleanor (Mrs. Lawrence) and Cora.

Maybe June will be Lawrence's next handmaid. She's a lot more loose lipped than Emily, and as snarky as Lawrence's Martha, so she'd fit right in.

Edited July 15, 2018 by Clanstarling

[dleighg]

I thought when June put her hood up at the end with that fierce (constipated?) expression she reminded me for all the world of Star Wars Emperor Palpatine. 

[JasonCC]

There were many unbelievable/out of character moments (stop with the constant hesitating and dawdling in frantic situations already!) but the normally cool and calculated Emily snapping at that moment and stabbing Aunt Lydia wasn't one for me. I think it was a spur of the moment snap, brought about because of one specific line. Aunt Lydia made that cruel crack about "should have cut out your tongue", she was referring to the genital mutilation Emily underwent and is still probably in deep PTSD over. Had Aunt Lydia not made that particular, triggering comment? I think Emily would have kept the kitchen knife hidden, allowed Aunt Lydia to think she was getting along at the Lawrence household more or less by the rules, and quietly reassessed her situation and options. 

Edited July 15, 2018 by JasonCC

[kieyra]

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The legible map I posted makes it clear that red is occupied territory and gray is where the active fighting is.

yes, those are nuclear accidents sites

When you say gray, do you mean blue? I don’t see any gray.

Re the occupied zones (red), seems weird to me that Gilead got the entire West Coast (really?) and south Florida.

Edited July 15, 2018 by kieyra

[dleighg]

I think "occupied" means "occupied by the resistance." And the gray refers to some (rather narrow) border areas around the red.

[Trillian]

Re: areas that wouldn’t go to Gilead: isn’t  the whole point of the book/show the notion that Gilead can happen anywhere?  When a poster asked some weeks ago, upon learning that the book was written by a Canadian and the show produced and filmed in Canada, why wasn’t it set in Canada, I almost posted, with all my secure Canadian smugness, “because it can’t happen here”.  And then I stopped, and thought, yeah, it could.  Why not?  I imagine Atwood, with all of her secure Canadian smugness (a national trait, I fear), set it in the U.S. because she thinks it could happen there first, but the story is a cautionary tale, specifically about women’s rights but by extension about any rights.

It’s the analogy of the slowly boiling pot. We all like to think we’d rise up - and have the foresight to do so before it was too late - but I think Atwood’s message is that that isn’t necessarily the case.  Take away rights slowly, feed on popular fears, shoot a few dissenters and then, incrementally, there are no rights left and no one left to fight for them. Sure, there’d be resistance, but I think she’s saying that no one is immune. 

Edited July 15, 2018 by Trillian

[Veronimo]

3 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

That is true.  June and Nick haven't actually had sex since he was issued Eden.  But Eden picked up on it enough to accuse Nick of being involved with June and June did have reassure her that she probably wouldn't be around much longer (because of the baby situation) to be any kind of threat.  By itself, the line was actually funny.  Oh, you feel bad because you were visibly annoyed by her eager beaver helpfulness?  Yeah, I can top that.  The issue was how openly they were acknowledging a situation that Nick admitted in that earlier confrontation with Eden would be suicide for all of them if discovered.  Maybe they figure it doesn't matter since Serena and Fred both already know, but it also suggests a larger carelessness with house secrets when their entire society is built on the fiction that Serena and Fred as supposed paragons of that society are the baby's "real parents."

I assumed June and Nick hadn't been intimate since The Dawn of Eden, but I remembered a couple of things. In S1, June's narration includes a description of how she returned to Nick again and again, she wants to memorize him, etc. etc. We clearly weren't privy to every encounter. And then when she returns from the hospital after that big scare (the Nick yelling in the rain scare), he sees June in the living room, asks if she's staying there for now, and then says, "I'll come see you tonight, then," and she responds, "We can't keep sneaking around." I think we can (maybe?) assume they've found their moments.

I was stunned by the scene where Nick meets the ambulance that returns false-labor June to the Waterfords; the two are so blatant about their feelings. And then Hulu released an "anatomy of the scene" feature about it, and it was written right into the script. Regarding the public touching: "Today they can get away with it. In this moment they're the only people in the world who matter. Nick doesn't see Eden. He doesn't see anyone but Offred. Mother, Father, and Baby. The rest of the world can go f**k themselves." I have to add this part because I found it so hilarious. When Serena shows up, the script continues, "Offred looks at Nick. Serena has ruined their moment. Like she ruins everything." HA!

I agree that the "I slept with her husband," line was funny! They should have gone all the way with the humor—"Well, Nick's my baby daddy." 

[millennium]

3 hours ago, Trillian said:

 

It’s the analogy of the slowly boiling pot. We all like to think we’d rise up - and have the foresight to do so before it was too late - but I think Atwood’s message is that that isn’t necessarily the case.  Take away rights slowly, feed on popular fears, shoot a few dissenters and then, incrementally, there are no rights left and no one left to fight for them. Sure, there’d be resistance, but I think she’s saying that no one is immune. 

Desensitization would play a role too.   Steadily shatter norms so that the population accepts one travesty after another.   People don't want to think the unthinkable is happening, so they tell themselves it's just this one thing and move on.  Until the next thing.   Or they rationalize it as being for the greater good, i.e., you have to break a few eggs if you want to make an omelet.   I think that's what happened to Serena.  

[dleighg]

5 hours ago, dleighg said:

I thought when June put her hood up at the end with that fierce (constipated?) expression she reminded me for all the world of Star Wars Emperor Palpatine. 

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, kieyra said:

When you say gray, do you mean blue? I don’t see any gray.

Re the occupied zones (red), seems weird to me that Gilead got the entire West Coast (really?) and south Florida.

 

There are two maps.  The BS blurry one they had on the show, and a perfectly clear snap of the one they handed out at the finale.  The second one has clear grey lines around the red, which is active fighting.  Red is occupied territory, so Gilead doesn't have those areas, they are controlled by rebels. 

I think the yellow areas must be the colonies.  Perhaps occupied territory, with Gilead troops and without active fighting, but not Gilead believers.  Pink may be active fighting, but not rebel controlled.  ??

5 hours ago, dleighg said:

I think "occupied" means "occupied by the resistance." And the gray refers to some (rather narrow) border areas around the red.

Exactly.

You can enlarge this and read all but the stuff in the bottom left corner.  I can't seem to get that any clearer with my various programs, but maybe someone can.  I know the top line is says it's Gilead's Military Map though.  I can't read the date on it.

Edited July 15, 2018 by Umbelina