S16.E21: Michael Moore, Bradley Whitford, Jennifer Rubin, Lawrence Wilkerson, and Ben Shapiro

[formerlyfreedom]

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Michael Moore, Bradley Whitford, Jennifer Rubin, Lawrence Wilkerson, and Ben Shapiro

[revbfc]

Is there a behind the scenes story to explain why Ben Shapiro wasn’t on Overtime?  Was he kicked out?  Did he wimp out?  Did he have dinner reservations across town?

[Robert Lynch]

My God, Michael Moore was insufferable. 

[Caseysgirl]

As if the week wasn’t bad enough, I had to watch Michael Moore and Bill screaming “ doom and gloom” . I know it’s bad, but geez, guys, chill!  Yes, Trump is indestructible,  but 4 terms?   By the end of the show I was ready to put my head in the oven.

[wknt3]

5 hours ago, revbfc said:

Is there a behind the scenes story to explain why Ben Shapiro wasn’t on Overtime?  Was he kicked out?  Did he wimp out?  Did he have dinner reservations across town?

He had a show in Vegas! Seriously though there was a mention by Bill of "Friday nights being tough for [him]" which I believe was a reference to the Sabbath and him being observant. With the late sunsets of this time of year he could probably do the top of the show interview, but not Overtime.

 

3 hours ago, Robert Lynch said:

My God, Michael Moore was insufferable. 

He sure was. I was pleasantly surprised by Ben Shapiro, especially as the beginning of the interview seemed to be going off the rails as I feared with Bill praising him as brave and Shapiro being obnoxious, but we actually ended up with Bill challenging him and an interesting back and forth. I would have liked more Bradley Whitford, who is well informed, charming, and not completely full of himself, and less Michael Moore. Or even better, no Michael Moore. He really was the turd in what was otherwise a pretty good punch bowl.

[ganesh]

Dude, you needed all those cops to protect your at Berkeley? College kids are soooo scary? And who paid for those cops? #PartyOfPersonalResponsibility

I do have to give credit to Bill for immediately shutting down the guy when he was trying to pull the both sides are just as bad garbage. I found the interview to be largely garbage and filled with the same typical delflectory drivel. At least Bill got animated about it. 

OK, I can concede that Waters maybe should have worded her comments a little better being in her position but there is a fundamental premise of civil disobedience that's being missed because everyone is clutching their pearls at the mean lady who yelled. 

Sanders didn't get thrown out of the restaurant. They asked her to leave and she left, kind of like how the baker did literally the same thing to Biden in 2012 and then spoke at a Romney/Ryan rally, or was this guy too young to remember? 

I did like that Bill brought up Obama's comments about not looking for a savior. It's particularly appropriate here because we've discussed how "perfect being the enemy of good" has been so problematic to the left. 

[attica]

I spent the entire ep with my shoulders up around my ears. So unpleasant.  Shapiro is a troll, Whitford was fidgeting like he had bugs on him, Wilkerson, whom I normally enjoy, could only interject about the INF, for fucks sake (when I'm worried about dying by wire-hanger, some fusty treaty is not at the front of my brain,  however important it is to world diplomacy.), Rubin kept yelling that Dems suck, Moore wanted to do teevee reviews, and Bill was all we've already lost. Exhausting.

[sistermagpie]

26 minutes ago, ganesh said:

OK, I can concede that Waters maybe should have worded her comments a little better being in her position but there is a fundamental premise of civil disobedience that's being missed because everyone is clutching their pearls at the mean lady who yelled. 

Sanders didn't get thrown out of the restaurant. They asked her to leave and she left, kind of like how the baker did literally the same thing to Biden in 2012 and then spoke at a Romney/Ryan rally, or was this guy too young to remember? 

Also what bugs me about this is it makes it as if it's just about "civility" as if it's about just your manners. There was no discussion of the totally different contexts. There's a huge difference between shouting racist slurs at people for speaking Spanish in public or the theater of cruelty that is going on now at the border and someone who has decided that they need to stand up to a public official who's personally hurting people.

It reminds me of the national anthem thing. The kneeling was about calling attention to an actually important moral issue. Conservatives looked at the most superficial aspect of it--kneeling during a song--and managed to make it about the song. There's not actual weight to their argument at all, but liberals allowed them to change the narrative by talking about the anthem as well and now it's just about that. Of course if Bill was willing to make this about manners Shapiro would have no problem claiming that there were two elephants of the same size because hey, it's rude to raise your voice to a person and it's also rude to call someone a racial slur. Doesn't matter now why someone's doing it. Even kidnapping someone's child is just another example of being rude.

[iMonrey]

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Is there a behind the scenes story to explain why Ben Shapiro wasn’t on Overtime? 

Because he isn't as "brave" as Bill says he is. He's OK facing off with Bill one on one because he knows Bill's a pretty easy interview. It would be a different story going up against a panel where he'd be outnumbered. Simply talking faster than anyone else isn't going to cut it.

As for Bill's assertion that liberals don't go on conservative shows . . . which ones? If he means shock jock shows like Rush Limbaugh or Alex Jones, they don't even invite liberal guests. And if he means Fox & Friends, they cherry-pick "liberal" representation to frame them in the worst possible light. Most rational pundits know better than to walk into a trap. The only reason right wingers go on Bill's show is they know he panders to them.

[GHScorpiosRule]

EVERYONE was INSUFFERABLE last night.

Way to end the show before a month’s hiatus.

The only positive I saw was Bill pushing back a little against that asshat Shapiro. 

[Victor the Crab]

They should have just handed out suicide pills after last night's show. And give a full bottle of them to Michael Moore as he looks like he needs and deserves them the most for many a reason.

The best part of last night's show was that it ended and won't be back for a month.

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

As for Bill's assertion that liberals don't go on conservative shows . . . which ones? If he means shock jock shows like Rush Limbaugh or Alex Jones, they don't even invite liberal guests. And if he means Fox & Friends, they cherry-pick "liberal" representation to frame them in the worst possible light. Most rational pundits know better than to walk into a trap. The only reason right wingers go on Bill's show is they know he panders to them.

Oh yeah, that made me furious too. What is the point of liberals going on their shows when the whole point is not to have a real conversation with them? Bill just keeps sticking to this idea that we have to keep "talking" when he's actually the only person talking in good faith. The conservative just comes on, gets a tongue bath about how brave they are and how cowardly liberals are in comparison, gets Bill finding something that they agree on (We both got disinvited to Berkeley! Isn't it stupid for someone to say liberal teenagers should be listened to?), then gets to talk loud and fast about talking point while Bill takes them seriously and so winds up five steps behind them.

Here he considered it a win that he got Shapiro to say that if Rosenstein indicted Trump he'd consider impeachment but guess what? He's probably lying! He's just sounding reasonable up until the point he'd actually have to do it and then he'd do more of those gymnastics to explain that Trump was still fine. He was already defending him on the show. People are beginning to think it's just weird how everyone acts like they don't know exactly what's going to happen no matter how many times it's happened before.

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Also what bugs me about this is it makes it as if it's just about "civility" as if it's about just your manners. There was no discussion of the totally different contexts.

That's why the little boy at the top of the interview was trying to do with his "both sides" garbage. You can't look at context because then you'll realize you're talking about completely different issues. 

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

There's not actual weight to their argument at all, but liberals allowed them to change the narrative by talking about the anthem as well and now it's just about that.

I feel like we say this here nearly every other week - take control of the narrative. 

 

23 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

The only reason right wingers go on Bill's show is they know he panders to them.

It's good for their brand too. It's not like their fans are going to watch the show, and they can say they "stood up to Bill". Whatever. 

Bill needed to reign in Moore when he got out there. He settled down a little while later. I take his point that we all need to get more people out to vote.

I did like his point to Bill when Bill was saying there's nothing we can do about scotus - so what? They didn't when the spot opened up under Obama. But yeah, Democratic leaders should be lobbying Murkowski and Collins. 

I thought Whitford was going to strangle that guy about the journalists. I did crack up when Moore hazed Whitford about being in Get Out and now Handmadien. 

OT was actually calmer and the discussion was good. 

[CaliCheeseSucks]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Because he isn't as "brave" as Bill says he is. He's OK facing off with Bill one on one because he knows Bill's a pretty easy interview. It would be a different story going up against a panel where he'd be outnumbered. Simply talking faster than anyone else isn't going to cut it.

As for Bill's assertion that liberals don't go on conservative shows . . . which ones? If he means shock jock shows like Rush Limbaugh or Alex Jones, they don't even invite liberal guests. And if he means Fox & Friends, they cherry-pick "liberal" representation to frame them in the worst possible light. Most rational pundits know better than to walk into a trap. The only reason right wingers go on Bill's show is they know he panders to them.

Wish I could like this 100 times. Am so tired of Bill's, "Oh you're so brave coming here because we're the enemy to you," followed by nothing but soft-pedaling (with an occasional pointed question). Bill constantly lets the conservative interviewees off the hook. Dude, you got them in the chair across from you. Put up or shut up.

[meowmommy]

3 hours ago, attica said:

Shapiro is a troll, Whitford was fidgeting like he had bugs on him, Wilkerson, whom I normally enjoy, could only interject about the INF, for fucks sake (when I'm worried about dying by wire-hanger, some fusty treaty is not at the front of my brain,  however important it is to world diplomacy.), Rubin kept yelling that Dems suck, Moore wanted to do teevee reviews, and Bill was all we've already lost.

I guess I didn't hate this episode as much as some other folks.  MM is definitely OTT, but he also was one of the people who sounded the alarm in 2016 not to take Hillary's win for granted and that he thought Drumpf would win, and of course he was right.  It was funny, though, that as soon as MM drew breath, Bill jumped in, New Rules, we've got a show to do.  Speaking of New Rules, pretty good.  And tying a public service message about ticks to global warming.  The list of health nuts who died young...priceless.  I remember most of them.

I read Jennifer Rubin's column regularly (and she churns them out like nobody's business), and she doesn't really say the Dems suck.  She's a never-Trumper who bashes Drumpf regularly and has urged her readers to vote Democratic although I don't think she's officially left the Republican party.  I think she, like many of us, is just frustrated that the Democrats can't seem to put together a unified, coherent message.  

I'm too old to worry about dying by wire hanger, but a 'fusty treaty' gone wrong can kill all of us, really fast.  They're both important.

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

As for Bill's assertion that liberals don't go on conservative shows . . . which ones? If he means shock jock shows like Rush Limbaugh or Alex Jones, they don't even invite liberal guests. And if he means Fox & Friends, they cherry-pick "liberal" representation to frame them in the worst possible light. Most rational pundits know better than to walk into a trap. The only reason right wingers go on Bill's show is they know he panders to them.

I do so agree with this.  The only reason Hannity's show used to be Hannity and Colmes is that they found the perfect liberal punching bag in the late Alan Colmes.  And no rational liberal would have ever wanted to fill those shoes after Colmes left, even if Hannity would have allowed it.  I used to watch BOR (forgive me) and his version of engaging with liberals was screaming over them and then cutting off their mics.

[attica]

Another thing: for people who live in LA, where there is a huge Latinx population, to not know how to pronounce Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez's name is just stupid. It's not O Casey O, it's Ocahseeoh. Sheesh. 

[GoldenGirl90]

According to the comments on YouTube, Shapiro “owned” Bill. Not sure I’d go that far but, uh, alright. What I will say is that Bill didn’t exactly come out of that interview/debate a winner. I think the conversation was civil, for the most part. What I mostly got from this exchange is that many people, who may not particularly like either Trump’s inflammatory rhetoric, nor him as a person, are willing to put that aside as long as he gets what they want passed. I’m not sure how else to put it. 

All in all, I didn’t really enjoy the show.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Alexis2291

[Robert Lynch]

All I want is Bill to stop having these rhetorical conservatives on the show, including Ben Shapiro. No, Bill, you cannot change their mind because they don't see the big picture. They will continue to kiss the orange leader's ring, no matter what happens in the Mueller investigation. These are the types that would stick their fingers in their ears and go la la la to you, Bill. You know better than trying to reason with conservatives that use that narrative. 

[The Mighty Peanut]

Say social fabric again, Shapiro.... ::shakes fist::

[charmed1]

Ben Shapiro has a rage-filled face. I was surprised to see a wedding ring on his finger. 

I watch The Handmaid’s Tale every week, yet I can’t place Bradley Whitford’s character. Is he the commander who recruited Nick? 

[Victor the Crab]

19 hours ago, meowmommy said:

MM is definitely OTT, but he also was one of the people who sounded the alarm in 2016 not to take Hillary's win for granted and that he thought Drumpf would win, and of course he was right.

It was HOW he said it that should piss a lot of people off. He told everyone on Bill's show, in that whinny voice of his, "I'm sorry, but Drumpf is going to win the election because he's going to take all the states Romney won in 2012 plus Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. (So stay at home on election night, don't go out to vote because all is lost thanks to the Democrats choosing Hillary as their candidate instead of Bernie. BLAAAH!!!!)" [parenthesis, mine]

Michael Moore is a lot like Bill in that he's of no fucking help to the left.

[wknt3]

23 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Because he isn't as "brave" as Bill says he is. He's OK facing off with Bill one on one because he knows Bill's a pretty easy interview. It would be a different story going up against a panel where he'd be outnumbered. Simply talking faster than anyone else isn't going to cut it.

As for Bill's assertion that liberals don't go on conservative shows . . . which ones? If he means shock jock shows like Rush Limbaugh or Alex Jones, they don't even invite liberal guests. And if he means Fox & Friends, they cherry-pick "liberal" representation to frame them in the worst possible light. Most rational pundits know better than to walk into a trap. The only reason right wingers go on Bill's show is they know he panders to them.

I disagree about the specifics here as to why he didn't appear on Overtime (as I posted above), but I totally agree with you on the larger point. It is perhaps my biggest problem with Bill - his willingness to go along with the right's false narrative when it meets his needs. I think he might even have started to believe his own BS about the right wingers being braver than liberals and more willing to engage in open debate. He knows better (how many invitations does he get to appear on Fox News now that Bill O'Reilly's gone?) but is so butthurt about liberals calling him out when he says something stupid that what used to spin to promote his image as a tough truth teller and build his brand has actually become his worldview. At least since the Milo debacle he's started to challenge them occasionally.

 

21 hours ago, meowmommy said:

I guess I didn't hate this episode as much as some other folks.  MM is definitely OTT, but he also was one of the people who sounded the alarm in 2016 not to take Hillary's win for granted and that he thought Drumpf would win, and of course he was right.  It was funny, though, that as soon as MM drew breath, Bill jumped in, New Rules, we've got a show to do.  Speaking of New Rules, pretty good.  And tying a public service message about ticks to global warming.  The list of health nuts who died young...priceless.  I remember most of them.

I guess you and I are the only ones who didn't think it totally sucked. I thought it was nothing special, but not as bad as I feared and the scripted material was solid.

[Gemma Violet]

I've never seen The Handmaid's Tale, but I definitely did not think Michael Moore was OTT.  He was right on the mark that fascism takes over a country in little increments.  He was alarmed, and rightly so.  When you have a leader telling citizens the free press is the enemy of the people, alienating our allies, admiring other dictators, blaming immigrants for the problems of the world, etc.--these are chapters right out the dictator handbook.  I admire MM for trying to get people off their butts and get involved.  Some may disagree and say there's nothing to fret, but I feel it's better to get involved before the president declares himself Supreme Ruler, not after.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Gemma Violet

[Cyranetta]

6 hours ago, charmed1 said:

I watch The Handmaid’s Tale every week, yet I can’t place Bradley Whitford’s character. Is he the commander who recruited Nick? 

I'm pretty sure Whitford is supposed to make his first appearance on Handmaid's Tale this coming week.

[ganesh]

I didn't think it totally sucked. The interview was garbage, but the panel was lively without being too shouty. 

I don't have a problem with anything Moore said, but he started in 5th gear and was really ranty until he settled down. 

[Medicine Crow]

I would have liked to hear more from Lawrence Wilkerson, but ...

[ganesh]

He talked more on OT.

[Tachi Rocinante]

A very small part of me thinks Shapiro voted for Trump.  Saying he didn't is an easy way to gain a bit of credibility without proving anything.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

A very small part of me thinks Shapiro voted for Trump.  Saying he didn't is an easy way to gain a bit of credibility without proving anything.

Plus his explanation of not voting for him was that he didn't know he'd be as good as he is. He couldn't believe he'd be taking away so much money and so many rights from people.

He was dis-invited from Berkeley so he must be a free-thinker!

[Sara2009]

On 6/30/2018 at 8:33 AM, wknt3 said:

He had a show in Vegas! Seriously though there was a mention by Bill of "Friday nights being tough for [him]" which I believe was a reference to the Sabbath and him being observant. With the late sunsets of this time of year he could probably do the top of the show interview, but not Overtime.

 

He sure was. I was pleasantly surprised by Ben Shapiro, especially as the beginning of the interview seemed to be going off the rails as I feared with Bill praising him as brave and Shapiro being obnoxious, but we actually ended up with Bill challenging him and an interesting back and forth. I would have liked more Bradley Whitford, who is well informed, charming, and not completely full of himself, and less Michael Moore. Or even better, no Michael Moore. He really was the turd in what was otherwise a pretty good punch bowl.

I like Bradley Whitford, and I think he’s very intelligent. I definitely understand why some find him insufferable, so I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind there, but personally I always enjoy listening to him.

[iMonrey]

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I guess you and I are the only ones who didn't think it totally sucked. I thought it was nothing special, but not as bad as I feared and the scripted material was solid.

I think in general the show was just a downer and that's because something truly awful happened and it's tough to face the reality of it. I don't blame Michael Moore for sounding desperate. These are desperate times.

[wknt3]

14 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I think in general the show was just a downer and that's because something truly awful happened and it's tough to face the reality of it. I don't blame Michael Moore for sounding desperate. These are desperate times.

True, but other hosts have managed to acknowledge the depressing reality at times and admit the odds are heavily stacked against what their audience wants to see, while still suggesting ways of fighting back and not basically saying that we're all screwed and there is nothing we can do. John Oliver did a great job last night of combining despair with a call to action. Samantha Bee, Stephen Colbert, and Seth Meyers all come to mind as having pulled it off too. I feel that this another area where Bill hasn't thought things through and is just relying on his instinctual reaction to the news of the day. I wish Bill wasn't so intellectually lazy because it would be so easy to take his observations about preferring showy protests over effective action, how the Tea Party managed to organize, etc. and use them to call for his audience to run for school boards, state commissions, etc. and fight within the Democratic party to push them in the direction you want while still supporting the candidates that will give you more of what they want even if they're not perfect. But again that would require a more coherent worldview than he seems to possess these days.

[candall]

When Michael Moore hyperventilates that "THIS is the moment, our very last chance," he sounds just as OTT alarmist as he did on earlier RT episodes, insisting we were dismissing Candidate Trmp at our own peril. 

I have a lot of respect for the messages in Moore's movies, even when his delivery grates.  It's going to be a damn shame if he's Cassandra and this is Troy.

[Hanahope]

While I'd like to think Michael Moore is fear mongering, he was right about trump winning the presidency because people were too complacent about Hillary.  So I think we should take nothing for granted, just like Moore says.  

Shapiro certainly sounds reasonable.  I'll really be interested to see if he will actually support Mueller if he comes out against trump.  he says there's no current evidence, but there's a goodly amount in the indictments that have already gone out, if you bother to read them in detail.

[Victor the Crab]

2 hours ago, Hanahope said:

While I'd like to think Michael Moore is fear mongering, he was right about trump winning the presidency because people were too complacent about Hillary.  So I think we should take nothing for granted, just like Moore says.

How Michael Moore said it was damned enraging enough for anybody who cares about America. He basically said to the public that Drumpf was going to win the election and why, which in turn told people that the election was lost and that there was no reason to vote, which helped lead to this complacency (the exact attitude a Clinton hater like Moore would display). That POS doesn't deserve the time of day and deserves to be run out on a rail!