Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[SueB]

1 hour ago, Supafanstan said:

I am not sure if this is the place, but I'll try, since it is probably an unpopular opinion. This is from the Spoilers thread where the discussion of the spoiler blog being flamed due to thoughts expressed about Destiel and canon.

It is a shame. I seriously have to question the motives and mindset of all these fans who demand Destiel be made canon in the name of representation and equality, etc., yet see no irony in insisting that a character - or an actor for that matter  - be dragged out of the closet, kicking and screaming if necessary - because, subtext.  I sincerely hope these social justice warriors don't treat their real life LGBTQ friends and family this way, not just questioning another's sexuality but insisting they know their truths better than the person themselves, often openly mocking them for being in denial. I have to wonder if it isn't just because they are two exceptionally good looking men fueling this fantasy.

So I guess my unpopular opinion is that I don't believe the show is guilty of queerbaiting, because they have never once implied that Dean is gay or bi, Jensen has said repeatedly he doesn't play him that way, and Dean's love of women is legendary (and canon). Despite Misha fanning the flames of Destiel, Castiel has never shown any predilection to being attracted to the same sex, either. In fact all his relationships have been with women (or entities in a female meat suit). In my opinion, there has been no promise of a Dean/Cas romantic relationship ever happening, so ascribing one's own desires to these characters/actors and then calling your disappointment in it never happening 'queerbaiting' isn't fair. In my opinion. 

I'm pretty much with you with a slight caveat -- I think "hoyay" (homoerotic subtext - yay!) WAS a real thing on Supernatural (see PS).  And I think the producers inserted it early and often in S4-S8 because the fans ate it up.  About S8 is when the dam broke on this topic (if memory serves) and it went from acceptable "hoyay" to "queerbaiting".  In otherwords, the subtext approach WAS used as that was previously acceptable.  After a while, fandoms (not just Supernatural) were pissed off at "hoyay" as being bait to get them to watch.  After S8, I think the writers certainly understood the issue (and there were some unfortunate twitter exchanges that had fandom eating itself).  "Fan Fiction" theoretically put a bow on the topic with a 'you see it your way and that's okay but we see it our way and that's okay too' theme.  That, of course, resulted in a metric SHIT TON of reaction on the internet.  BUT, I can't agree they NEVER had the subtext.  I think they had "hoyay" subtext until it became problemattic.  Since then, I think they write KNOWING there will be those who see subtext in everything but are more careful* to avoid potentially misleading this subtext to a promise of canon 'endgame'.  I don't think they EVER intended it would be canon 'endgame', just that they became more sensitive to those who were not only wishing for it but outright expecting it.  

*too late, BTW, for some.  Some will never give up that ship.  But I also don't fault the writers for exploring an important relationship on the show in a manner fitting to both characters.  

PS: I realize you may have known all the history of "hoyay" but not everyone does.  My apologies if I'm espousing an opinion you were already completely familiar with. 

Edited February 26, 2019 by SueB

[Aeryn13]

It`s not just disgruntled shippers currently attacking spoiler-girl, the "other side" is practically gleeful and dragging her over the coals, too, in an even more mean-spirited way. It`s no wonder she had enough really. Our loss, that was someone with inside source and set access.  

[Morlock]

* The show has gone on for too long now and story lines are repeating themselves. IE How many times are one of the boys going to end up in hell or be possessed, how many more dead family members are going to come back?

* I preferred the earlier seasons when it had a "monster of the week" format. This prevented long boring story arcs from sucking up entire seasons. 

* I prefer the sillier eps over the serious ones. 

* I stopped watching every episode a few seasons ago now. 

* I wonder if the show will last for so long that the two brothers will be wondering if "hunting" makes them eligible for old age pension. 

[Supafanstan]

11 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

It`s not just disgruntled shippers currently attacking spoiler-girl, the "other side" is practically gleeful and dragging her over the coals, too, in an even more mean-spirited way.

This is way too true. 😞  

I should say that I have zero issue with the ship itself, and the millions of words of fanfic on it - I just think that's where it should begin and end. That goes for Wincest or any other ship as well - leave it in the fanfic world where it belongs, and ffs don't beat up the actors (or each other) over it. 

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Supafanstan said:

I have to wonder if it isn't just because they are two exceptionally good looking men fueling this fantasy.

Nailed it!

3 hours ago, Supafanstan said:

So I guess my unpopular opinion is that I don't believe the show is guilty of queerbaiting, because they have never once implied that Dean is gay or bi, Jensen has said repeatedly he doesn't play him that way, and Dean's love of women is legendary (and canon).

Agree so much with this!

[AwesomO4000]

10 hours ago, SueB said:

I'm pretty much with you with a slight caveat -- I think "hoyay" (homoerotic subtext - yay!) WAS a real thing on Supernatural (see PS).  And I think the producers inserted it early and often in S4-S8 because the fans ate it up.  About S8 is when the dam broke on this topic (if memory serves) and it went from acceptable "hoyay" to "queerbaiting".  In otherwords, the subtext approach WAS used as that was previously acceptable.  After a while, fandoms (not just Supernatural) were pissed off at "hoyay" as being bait to get them to watch.  After S8, I think the writers certainly understood the issue (and there were some unfortunate twitter exchanges that had fandom eating itself).  "Fan Fiction" theoretically put a bow on the topic with a 'you see it your way and that's okay but we see it our way and that's okay too' theme.  That, of course, resulted in a metric SHIT TON of reaction on the internet.  BUT, I can't agree they NEVER had the subtext.  I think they had "hoyay" subtext until it became problemattic.  Since then, I think they write KNOWING there will be those who see subtext in everything but are more careful* to avoid potentially misleading this subtext to a promise of canon 'endgame'.  I don't think they EVER intended it would be canon 'endgame', just that they became more sensitive to those who were not only wishing for it but outright expecting it.

Caveat: I am entirely social network ignorant. No Twitter, no Tumbler, no Facebook, or anything related, so I could be entirely wrong about this whole thing I'm about to say, since I know little about what's going on in said social media nowadays, so please keep all of this in mind for the following...

For me, I wonder if it's partly the changing times. I seem to remember from somewhere that back a while ago, the hoyay often used to be enjoyed for being just that. I remember the commentary/opinion being that in some cases, it was more fun when it was just hoyay. The tease was the appeal rather than the real thing. Not that canon same-sex couples weren't also appealing, but that for some characters, being in on the hoyay was part of the fun and the appeal. It was like subtext that true fans would get and be in on the fun - something just for those fans - and that it becoming actual text would take away from that.

I seem to remember fans in multiple different shows expressing that kind of opinion.

It reminded me of that old Jon Lovitz sketch from Saturday Night Live, "Tales of Ribaldry." Evelyn Quince (Jon Lovitz) would be all overjoyed with his tales all through the double entendres and "foreplay" and the promise of "delicious" conflict, but as soon as the characters in his tales would say "let's just have sex" or a 3-way or some variation of that, Evelyn was dismayed and no longer interested at all, because all of the mystery and "deliciousness" was taken out of it.

Am I not remembering that correctly, or did that used to be a thing? And maybe now it's not as appreciated that way anymore and people now only want the real thing?

Personally for me in this particular show, I like it as subtext. I like the tease.

It reminds me of one of my favorite characters ever who was from a show called Crossing Jordan, Dr. Nigel Townsend. One of my favorite things about Nigel is that despite everything you found out about him, there were always some things about him that were kept secret. One of those things was Nigel's sexual preference. Throughout the show there were hints that it could go multiple ways, and he seemed to be perfectly comfortable being "flirty"*** with just about everyone, but it was never revealed whether Nigel was straight, gay, or bi-sexual. As Nigel himself said once, "does it really matter?" No, no it didn't... it was actually better and more fitting, in my opinion, that we never knew.

*** And for me, one of the awesome things about Nigel was that this wasn't cheesy or forced or obnoxious. It just was as part of his character. And he was a complex character with his own good qualities and faults (like being somewhat arrogant and prone to boasting).

[rue721]

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

The tease was the appeal rather than the real thing. Not that canon same-sex couples weren't also appealing, but that for some characters, being in on the hoyay was part of the fun and the appeal. It was like subtext that true fans would get and be in on the fun - something just for those fans - and that it becoming actual text would take away from that.

Yeah, I think that was a real thing. Smallville had a HUGE amount of hoyay between Lex Luthor and Clark Kent, but I think virtually nobody actually wanted them to be a romantic couple in canon. I mean, people would refer to them as an OTP and stuff and STILL not actually want them to be a couple or even hook up.

I think nowadays you can have a very intense *platonic* relationship between two male characters and nobody bats an eye, because close friendships between men are considered normal, and generally, men having feelings other than anger is considered normal. But even ten years ago, I think that it was still considered weird for men to be emotional/intense with anyone other than their romantic partner. So if men were emotional/intense with each other, it was like -- is this romantic? Are they banging?

I think it's a good cultural change but I also think it doesn't make all hoyay retroactive queerbaiting. "Masculinity" and how men were "supposed" to do relationships was just really different even very recently. I think that a lot of hoyay was just people having strong reactions to male characters crossing "lines" that don't really exist anymore in our culture.

This is going to be a pretty big UO, but:  Honestly, when it comes to SPN in particular, I feel like there's a similar rewriting of history regarding corporal punishment. It was the OVERWHELMING norm not long ago, and I guarantee that it's still the norm in a whole lot of places. Personally, I'm opposed to corporal punishment, but at the same time, I can't get on board with rewriting history to say that the vast majority of children born before 2005~ was physically abused because their parents disciplined them in a way considered completely normal and responsible at the time. In my mind, it's assumed that yes, Sam and Dean grew up sometimes getting smacked and sometimes getting the belt, because in my mind, that would have been the default, and there's no reason to think that John diverged from the default when it came to that. I think it would be interesting for the show to touch on the subject regarding Jack, but corporal punishment is still controversial enough that I doubt they will -- and maybe that's too much melodrama for this show anyway.

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think it would be interesting for the show to touch on the subject regarding Jack, but corporal punishment is still controversial enough that I doubt they will -- and maybe that's too much melodrama for this show anyway.

Do you mean spank Jack?  I think that would be weird regardless of the era.  Jack may only be 2 years old, but he's in the body of an adult.  Plus he has powers. If he doesn't want to be spanked, he's not getting spanked. It would wind up quite badly.

[rue721]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

Do you mean spank Jack?  I think that would be weird regardless of the era.  Jack may only be 2 years old, but he's in the body of an adult.  Plus he has powers. If he doesn't want to be spanked, he's not getting spanked. It would wind up quite badly.

Hahaha no I just mean like a tossed off line. Or maybe a slap upside the head or something -- which maybe has happened, IDK.

Edited February 27, 2019 by rue721

[catrox14]

20 hours ago, SueB said:

pretty much with you with a slight caveat -- I think "hoyay" (homoerotic subtext - yay!) WAS a real thing on Supernatural (see PS).  And I think the producers inserted it early and often in S4-S8 because the fans ate it up.  About S8 is when the dam broke on this topic (if memory serves) and it went from acceptable "hoyay" to "queerbaiting".  In otherwords, the subtext approach WAS used as that was previously acceptable.  After a while, fandoms (not just Supernatural) were pissed off at "hoyay" as being bait to get them to watch.  After S8, I think the writers certainly understood the issue (and there were some unfortunate twitter exchanges that had fandom eating itself).

 I think the show still does it without making jokes about it within the show. I think they have subtext in all the things in this show not just shipping. It's definitely a curious thing in the show.

[Myrelle]

20 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

It`s not just disgruntled shippers currently attacking spoiler-girl, the "other side" is practically gleeful and dragging her over the coals, too, in an even more mean-spirited way. It`s no wonder she had enough really. Our loss, that was someone with inside source and set access.  

And this is why I can't really bring myself to admit to feeling that I'm a part of the "SPNfamily" any longer.

And I know that it's not everyone, but honestly?-there's just too many of them all over social media for me at this point.

And I'm never going to make it to a convention, so social media and this place are it for me as far as discussing the show goes. Twitter and Tumblr have become over run with the shippers and these places are who Dabb and co cater to the most, from what I've seen.

They don't care a whit about decent writing and storytelling, IMO. It's all become about writing to and for the masses on Twitter and Tumblr so their SM numbers will rise, and who cares if one side hates the other or if even other "sides"(AKA viewers who watch for something else-such as, but not limited to, decent and more cohesive writing) even still exist out there, as long as those SM numbers are there.

And that's why I wish the show would just end at this point because it seems to me as if, at this point, the higher-ups are unwilling to even try and attract better BTS production talent than what we're saddled with right now and that the Emperor's New Clothes seems to be the theme that everyone concerning the show has chosen to go along with in that regard. 

It's maddening and I'm not sure how long I'm going to be able to continue watching if the second half of this season goes the way that I fear it's going to go.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Dean grew up sometimes getting smacked and sometimes getting the belt, because in my mind, that would have been the default, and there's no reason to think that John diverged from the default when it came to that. I think it would be interesting for the show to touch on the subject regarding Jack, but corporal punishment is still controversial enough that I doubt they will -- and maybe that's too much melodrama for this show anyway. 

Corporal punishment AFAIK is spanking and only spanking. Not being slapped or punched in the face. Brothers and sisters will at times have physical altercations but they are on more equal ground in general. If Sam and Dean wail on each other occasionally, whilst being not great it isn't the same as if John pushed Dean or Sam around or punched them on the regular.

I think about Dean hitting Sam on screen the first time and then his reaction to the memory of John's wrath when Sam ran away, tell me that John did abuse him beyond corporal punishment.

I think recent studies show that even spanking is detrimental to a child more than helpful. I think Dean and Sam were raised more like children of the late 60s and early 70s than children of the 80s and 90s when corporal punishment (spanking) was abandoned in schools by and large. My mother and brother worked in public schools as teachers and para-pros(aides). Parents had to sign waivers to allow their child to receive corporal punishment. If any teacher or administrator did so without that waiver they could be sued. Seriously.

WRT to John, I don't think he was abusive by nature. Mary's demise did a number on him and he in turn did number on the boys in different ways. And that psychological damage to the boys and John was completely undermined in the current iteration with touchy feely forgiveness vs helpful examination and consequences to John on an emotional level. That is my bitterness about Lebanon. IMO they failed to make his return have any meat to the history of the show. If I didn't already know John's historywith the boys , I would think John was not that bad of a father who just kind of failed and miraculously comes back to get the forgiveness he never sought and to snog his not dead wife. It's almost like John got the reward but didn't have to really face what his behavior wrought on the boys. He had choices to be different but the show in early seasons was trying to make it clear that  a demon killing his wife, trying to kill his youngest child turned him into a different person.

And they just skimmed right over all that for superficial emotional scenes. Bleh

[ahrtee]

43 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And they just skimmed right over all that for superficial emotional scenes. Bleh

And there in a nutshell you've summed up the past few years of the show:  no real substance, no build up to make the emotional scenes a payoff instead of a ripoff.  Just go straight for the feels, even if it makes no sense. *sigh*

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, rue721 said:

Yeah, I think that was a real thing. Smallville had a HUGE amount of hoyay between Lex Luthor and Clark Kent, but I think virtually nobody actually wanted them to be a romantic couple in canon. I mean, people would refer to them as an OTP and stuff and STILL not actually want them to be a couple or even hook up.

Okay, good. Thank you. I was hoping I hadn't imagined something that wasn't there - and this makes sense as I seem to remember now this being one of those shows even though it wasn't one I watched.

One show I did watch - Hannibal - had similar hoyay, though it was dark (obviously, considering the show) and was somewhat "consummated" though in an entirely unconventional way that wasn't technically sexual per se - really hard to do it justice trying to describe it actually - but if that moment had happened before the very final episode of the show, I would have been disappointed. Similarly if it had been consummated in a traditional way, I also would have been disappointed, because the "attraction" was not a physical one, it was emotional and dark and dangerous and very, very wrong.

But yes, basically the subtext and build up was what made it dark and wrong and somewhat exciting (despite it being dark and wrong - or maybe because of it?), yet still entirely understandable based on the show. Making it traditional text - rather than subtext and, I guess the word would be imagerial (okay I made that word up... I couldn't think of a real word that fit) would have, for me, ruined it. The way that show did it was somehow grotesque, fitting, and beautiful all at the same time, in my opinion.***

Now I'm not implying that Dean and Castiel are that dark in terms of their subtext, but for me, I kind of view their hoyay in a similar way... in that, I personally wouldn't want anything traditional for them, because I like it as subtext, and the not-consummated nature of it somehow - for me - seems fitting in an artistic sense. Not that I don't enjoy the occasional fanfic in that regard, but to me in a way, unless it's a bit dark and/or different - and really well done - even that still seems almost "wrong" for me in impinging on what the show gives us. If I want somewhat "fluffy" Castiel slashfic, I tend to go Sam/Castiel, because that's not touching/impinging on what the show has for those characters as much. *shrug* Sadly, quality Sam/Castiel fic, in any form, is more difficult to find.

So I guess my somewhat unpopular opinion is that in many cases - including Dean and Castiel - I prefer the subtext to remain subtext and wouldn't enjoy it as much if it stopped being subtext and instead became text, not because I'd have anything against that kind of relationship - I rather enjoy the relationship on Chicago Med as text, for example - but because artistically and narratively (what do you mean that's not a word?), I like Dean/Castiel better as subtext.

*** If you decide to see the clip(s) - the ending is in two parts on YouTube at present - just know that they aren't for the faint of heart, and are really bloody, because well, Hannibal Lecter, so... Someone on the thread of one of the clips described it as "art porn" - and it is, except I'd call it violent art porn - heh.

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, rue721 said:

Hahaha no I just mean like a tossed off line. Or maybe a slap upside the head or something -- which maybe has happened, IDK.

Does shooting Jack in the back count? Hee. I think shooting him in the back counts. ; )

Edited February 27, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Yeah, I think that was a real thing. Smallville had a HUGE amount of hoyay between Lex Luthor and Clark Kent, but I think virtually nobody actually wanted them to be a romantic couple in canon. 

You mean in fandom? Because lots and lots of people would have relished had the show gone there. I would have vastly prefered it to Clark and Lana myself. 

But Smallville is actually seen as a show that pioneered that super-ho-yay in Season 1 and then run away screaming from it in following Seasons, angering and frustrating the people the earlier approach had brought. 

Of course SPN has been running so long shipper wars have been fought, died down a bit, broken out again. Does the show has some (semi-intentional) ho-yay? I think so. It`s just that people directly tied to the show got hit with some really OTT reactions to it, especially by disillusioned shippers who got mean so they have pulled back from it. Dean and Cas have much less scenes together after several something-gates about that particular ship. 

[rue721]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Corporal punishment AFAIK is spanking and only spanking. Not being slapped or punched in the face. Brothers and sisters will at times have physical altercations but they are on more equal ground in general.

I wasn't referring to Sam and Dean punching each other as adults, which is a whole separate kettle of fish. Although now that you bring it up, I find it really weird that the show has them hit each other because, aside from all the physical danger/threat involved in adults getting violent (and which I frankly don't want to see in a non-monster-hunting capacity, but YMMV), it also seems like it would feel pretty demeaning to be hit like that. Do the show's writers not feel that way? I mean, getting hit can feel demeaning even for a child, but at least a child is in a subordinate relationship with their parent already and everybody knows that. I would think that the characters would shy away from humiliating each other, or at least the show would shy away from humiliating its leads onscreen, but...?

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think Dean and Sam were raised more like children of the late 60s and early 70s than children of the 80s and 90s when corporal punishment (spanking) was abandoned in schools by and large.

Corporal punishment was probably more common in schools back in the 60s and 70s than in later years, but it was still OVERWHELMINGLY common at home IME in the 90s. Maybe that was different elsewhere? I'm a few years younger than these characters and knew literally zero children growing up who never received any corporal punishment from their parents. The vast majority of kids got the belt, and there were some kids from harsher families who got the switch and some kids from more lenient families who were just hit with a hand. If a family was more of an outlier than that (either by being harsher or more lenient), it was usually for an obvious reason, like the parents were from a totally different country/culture with different norms.

To me, Dean's reaction in that episode just seemed like somebody who had gotten a beating (aka a spanking aka a whipping aka a whatever-it-is-called-in-your-region) -- and I cannot think what child, at least at that time, would not have gotten one in that circumstance. I guess that's why his reaction seemed pretty ordinary to me. Like if your parent comes home and discovers that while you were babysitting you lost the damn kid...RIP. Nice knowing ya.

I thought that Dean flushing when he remembered getting punished and being furious at Sam for betraying him like that was 100% normal, and it was Sam being so oblivious that was notable and weird. Like Sam, did you not even imagine that your dad and brother would be freaking the fuck out? And what's also weird is that I would think that SAM would have ALSO gotten a beating for running off! Like as soon as he got back! So why he was so cavalier about the whole thing, I don't know. You'd think he would have been sitting in that cabin with his stomach in knots, knowing he was about to be in Big-Trouble-Capital-B-Capital-T when he got home, not enjoying living it up like he was *literally* in heaven. And you'd think that whatever punishment he got once he was back would have put a pall over the whole thing, too. But no. Perplexing, IMO.

Anyway, I'm not condoning corporal punishment AT ALL. Personally, I think it's a terrible idea for a lot of reasons. I just think it's weirdly ahistorical to assume that John wouldn't have used it. In my mind, of course he would have, everybody did. And in my opinion, it would have been a mistake on his part to do so, but it would also have been one of the most ordinary and understandable mistakes that he made. One a lot of responsible and well-meaning parents still make today. YMMV.

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

That is my bitterness about Lebanon. IMO they failed to make his return have any meat to the history of the show.

Totally agree. I mean, I love seeing John. But I wish the writers had dug a little deeper. Not in the sense of making things more "schlocky" but in the sense of just having more insight into the characters and their interactions. The interactions did feel too superficial IMO. I don't blame the actors at all, they were killing it. But the writing just wasn't there, it didn't pull on the history enough and didn't have enough to say IMO.

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Hannibal - had similar hoyay, though it was dark (obviously, considering the show) and was somewhat "consummated"

Dude, that was pretty consummated. I actually think that Hannibal was a turning point, because they did go canon with the kind of relationship that previously would have been left in the subtext and waved away as existing only in the fans' imaginations (aka, left as hoyay).

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

Dude, that was pretty consummated. I actually think that Hannibal was a turning point, because they did go canon with the kind of relationship that previously would have been left in the subtext and waved away as existing only in the fans' imaginations (aka, left as hoyay).

Heh. True, but it wasn't traditional... in that their "consummation" consisted of killing someone together. The imagery was there, but an actual sexual relationship was not, but I guess yes, if the killing together = sex, then the hoyay became text at the end... I was okay with it happening at that point, because it was the end. And because Will knew it couldn't last either. Once he went over that line, he knew that was it, and he destroyed them both to keep it from continuing. Tragic and fitting, and not traditional... for me anyway.

And not what I'd want for Dean and Castiel... in that I think a romantic relationship between them would be potentially a bit problematic. There is a power imbalance there, and for me, I imagine that it might endanger and/or change the friendship. I understand, however, that miles on that will vary.

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

and it was Sam being so oblivious that was notable and weird. Like Sam, did you not even imagine that your dad and brother would be freaking the fuck out? And what's also weird is that I would think that SAM would have ALSO gotten a beating for running off! Like as soon as he got back! So why he was so cavalier about the whole thing, I don't know. You'd think he would have been sitting in that cabin with his stomach in knots, knowing he was about to be in Big-Trouble-Capital-B-Capital-T when he got home, not enjoying living it up like he was *literally* in heaven. And you'd think that whatever punishment he got once he was back would have put a pall over the whole thing, too. But no. Perplexing, IMO.

I don't know for sure, because they didn't elaborate, but John could have pulled the old "You're older so you should have known better" thing which was the norm in my family. I often got yelled at for stuff my sister did if I couldn't keep track of her and she got in trouble... and my sister was great at getting in trouble, sneaking out, getting out of places,*** and generally causing chaos. Out of necessity I became really good at problem solving just to avoid getting screamed at. Sometimes my solutions were unconventional to say the least, but as long as they kept my sister safe and prevented me from getting in trouble - hey fair game.

As for Sam not thinking about John and Dean being worried. I think based on how Sam saw himself, he maybe could've thought at times that they wouldn't care.^^^ He generally saw himself as an outsider and if John said things in anger, Sam was at an impressionable age at that time to maybe believe them. TMI - parents can say some awful things when they are angry, and I myself was on the end of things said that had me sometimes questioning if my mother at times would have cared if I left when I was Sam's age when he ran away. I was pretty sure my Dad would care, but Sam didn't always have another parent or Dean to balance anything John might have said while drunk or wallowing in his own personal shit to realize he might not be making the best impression on a young Sam.

Dean is a little tougher to explain - as in Sam should have known Dean would freak out - but if Sam was being a little tween shit and they had had a fight, Sam might've thought "well if Dean's really worried, he'll find me." Sam saw him as super Dean then, so that would track. Until then, I guess Sam was going to enjoy his freedom and maybe thought the consequences would be worth it... Or maybe he pulled the patented Sam puppy dog eyes and got out of it? Heh, I don't know... would the puppy eyes work on John?

***(when she was 2 or 3, the only way to keep my sister "in" a playpen was to turn the playpen upside down over her head like a roof. Nailing the rungs in (because she'd knock them out) didn't work, she'd just push/knock against the side until it fell over - and it was a big, square, wooden playpen with a flat bottom.)

^^^ And in light of "Just My Imagination" this maybe makes a bit of sense: where Dean and John were a team and Sam wanted to fit - as shown in that episode - but somewhere along the line - and I'm betting it was around the time he ran away - maybe decided that he just didn't fit and/or couldn't live up to or compare to Dean and never really would. And considering John was often about the mission, potentially Sam at that time didn't think John would even care.

3 hours ago, rue721 said:

Like if your parent comes home and discovers that while you were babysitting you lost the damn kid...RIP. Nice knowing ya.

Heh - agreed. See above "you're older and should have known better."

[rue721]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

As for Sam not thinking about John and Dean being worried. I think based on how Sam saw himself, he maybe could've thought at times that they wouldn't care.^^^ He generally saw himself as an outsider and if John said things in anger, Sam was at an impressionable age at that time to maybe believe them.

1 hour ago, PinkChicken said:

That said I would be surprised if Sam wasn't punished once they found him, but I think that rather than souring the whole thing for him like you suggest @rue721, he probably just added it to the pile of reasons why he ran away in the first place and it actually reinforced the whole thing in a way.

True enough, if Sam felt really justified in running away, I can see any blowback that he got afterward (or that he anticipated getting) feeding into those justifications. And he was probably thinking of Dean's role as covering for him for a while, not like, combing the woods for his corpse or whatever Dean was actually doing in this scenario LOL. It makes sense that Dean would be terrified that Sam was dead, but it also makes sense that as a kid, Sam wouldn't even think of that possibility. And once he was back -- well, Sam and John apparently fought all the time, so maybe the reaction that he got at that point wouldn't have even seemed that unusual to him.

I also do think there's something to Sam just figuring that John was gone all the time anyway, how freaked out was he even going to get (and meanwhile writing off Dean as his ally who would "get it" rather than someone who would be adding to the freak out). I know I did A LOT of stupid shit as a young kid figuring that my parents wouldn't ever know/care. I mean, usually they didn't, although they did find out this one time when I was around 10 y/o and my friend and I got in trouble with a railroad cop -- I gave the guy messed up information but my friend didn't, and my mom heard about it within like ten minutes through my friend's sister. And I would have gotten away with it, too, if only it weren't for that meddling kid!

Anyway, I don't think that Sam was really being all that weird, I just think that Dean's reaction gets talked about as being significant even though, if anything, his is the more expected/ordinary of the two IMO. Given that losing a kid is, uh, a pretty big deal. Objectively. hahaha

Spoiler

TMI story:  Trying to figure out what would have been going on in Sam's POV, I was thinking of the one time that I remember "running off" as a kid, but really, the circumstances were not comparable at all. I just ran out of the house like a bat out of hell during an enormous fight with my dad, I was like 8 y/o, and I was a "runaway" for maybe two hours, most of which were spent hiding out at the top of the street waiting for my mom to get home before slinking back to face the music. There was a short time there when I frantically tried to come up with ways not to go back, of course. Live off of stolen candy bars and slimjims from 7-Eleven and etc. Even at that age, all the other kids were like, "uh, you have to go back pretty soon and just take the punishment. Have some common sense." In retrospect, they were correct, faking my death and going underground would have been an overreaction.

I do think that it's interesting to think of Sam not really worrying about what was going on back home given that then he made a clean break years later. And was even still going to stay estranged after the hunt in the pilot, despite his father being missing.

1 hour ago, PinkChicken said:

like I imagine everyone can agree u get a completely different reaction to Dean slapping Sam on the back of the head for stomping on his foot in the pilot vs the first time they actually punched each other in the face.

Oh for sure, who cares about a random slap upside the head, they're brothers. I was thinking of Sam punching Dean in the face a couple episodes ago, which is one in a long line of weirdass face punches they've traded. I don't know who the writers are hanging out with that they think it's normal to do that, but they need to leave those losers behind 😛

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And not what I'd want for Dean and Castiel... in that I think a romantic relationship between them would be potentially a bit problematic. There is a power imbalance there, and for me, I imagine that it might endanger and/or change the friendship. I understand, however, that miles on that will vary.

I mean, neither Castiel nor Dean is an evil, cannibalistic serial killer, so I feel like Hannibal and Will Graham are not a good comparison hahaha

If anything, I think that Lucifer/Nick is more like Hannibal/Will.

[tessathereaper]

22 hours ago, rue721 said:

Yeah, I think that was a real thing. Smallville had a HUGE amount of hoyay between Lex Luthor and Clark Kent, but I think virtually nobody actually wanted them to be a romantic couple in canon. I mean, people would refer to them as an OTP and stuff and STILL not actually want them to be a couple or even hook up.

I think nowadays you can have a very intense *platonic* relationship between two male characters and nobody bats an eye, because close friendships between men are considered normal, and generally, men having feelings other than anger is considered normal. But even ten years ago, I think that it was still considered weird for men to be emotional/intense with anyone other than their romantic partner. So if men were emotional/intense with each other, it was like -- is this romantic? Are they banging?

I think it's a good cultural change but I also think it doesn't make all hoyay retroactive queerbaiting. "Masculinity" and how men were "supposed" to do relationships was just really different even very recently. I think that a lot of hoyay was just people having strong reactions to male characters crossing "lines" that don't really exist anymore in our culture.

This is going to be a pretty big UO, but:  Honestly, when it comes to SPN in particular, I feel like there's a similar rewriting of history regarding corporal punishment. It was the OVERWHELMING norm not long ago, and I guarantee that it's still the norm in a whole lot of places. Personally, I'm opposed to corporal punishment, but at the same time, I can't get on board with rewriting history to say that the vast majority of children born before 2005~ was physically abused because their parents disciplined them in a way considered completely normal and responsible at the time. In my mind, it's assumed that yes, Sam and Dean grew up sometimes getting smacked and sometimes getting the belt, because in my mind, that would have been the default, and there's no reason to think that John diverged from the default when it came to that. I think it would be interesting for the show to touch on the subject regarding Jack, but corporal punishment is still controversial enough that I doubt they will -- and maybe that's too much melodrama for this show anyway.

I disagree regarding the corporal punishment part, I'm not young and even when I was a kid it was looked down upon.  Maybe not a swat on the backside for a toddler, but actually really hitting kids, like with belts for example?  Yeah even in the 80's, when I was a teenager, that was very frowned upon. Heck I've watched enough old tv shows to know that it was already pretty frowned upon in the 70's(was that the beginning of After School Specials and "A Very Special Episodes of..."?:))  Dean and Sam grew up in the 80's and 90's and what John probably did would not have been considered the default.  

ETA:  There was no corporal punishment in our schools, but maybe we were more progressive here, you know damn Northeast bleeding heart liberals! LOL  Seriously I didn't even know hitting kids in a school was a thing until I heard it on the news and even then it was more about whether it should be "brought back" as opposed to "this is what we do now".    I don't know anyone who normally got the belt or the switch on a regular basis, , I'm sure there were, but it wasn't something talked about probably because it wasn't considered "normal", it would have stood out and could have gotten the attention of Dept of Family Services or something.

Edited February 28, 2019 by tessathereaper

[Pondlass1]

Sam and Dean did not grow up in 'our' world.  Their's is a very different world with monsters and angels and easy credit card fraud.  Child Protective Services (or whatever you have in the US) would've been checking up on John in my world and probably taking his boys away to foster care (heaven forbid!)

I never compare their world to the one I live in. 

[tessathereaper]

7 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Sam and Dean did not grow up in 'our' world.  Their's is a very different world with monsters and angels and easy credit card fraud.  Child Protective Services (or whatever you have in the US) would've been checking up on John in my world and probably taking his boys away to foster care (heaven forbid!)

I never compare their world to the one I live in. 

Like kids don't fall through the cracks in our world? Especially when they are being moved around every few months(or less). It would have been incredibly easy for Dean and Sam to be missed.   IMO that was part of the reason that made it so hard on them, just like in real life, what they were going through was hidden.  Their world was supposed to be like ours(esp in the first few seasons it was supposed to be stuff that happened but we didn't know about because these hunters were out there protecting us from things we didn't even know were real).  So IMO even if the world has changed "now", diverged from ours, the one they grew up in was still essentially OUR world.

[Katy M]

Did anybody watch the show Starman?  It was on for one season 86-87, I think, so about the time Sam and Dean were growing up.  It was about an alien and his son.  The government was looking for him, so they kept moving.  And he kept enrolling his son in different high schools every couple of weeks (like Sam and Dean), under his own name.  And, I could never figure out why the government wouldn't have been able to find them that way.  yeah, less computers than now, but still. Anyway, I only bring it up because it didn't seem to phase many of his teachers that he was changing schools every five minutes either.

[rue721]

3 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

Does this bring us full circle though, because a lot of the physicality, even (especially?) the violent stuff also belongs in the hoyay conversation (even tho thats messed up imo, & a product of not being able to show real lgbt relationships on screen & should be left in the past where it belongs), "You construct intricate rituals" and all that...

That's a good point. I think a lot of Destiel stuff honestly slips under my radar anyway. Like if violent physicality is supposed to hint at sex, then it IS suggestive that supposed bffs Cas and Dean get in so many fistfights. I also wonder what the introduction of niphilism looked like in a Destiel-shipper light, especially since the show was making Cas the baby's father figure initially. I wonder if trying to pull the plug on "Cas and Dean raising a half-angel/half-human baby together" was why the show has made Sam take a much more paternal role with Jack than Dean. Honestly, I had figured it was because Dean put a kabosh on ever having kids after things went so sour with Ben and it was a character-based thing, but thinking about it now, IMO not wanting to enflame Destiel shippers "too much" could very well have influenced it.

Edited February 28, 2019 by rue721

[rue721]

2 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

Like kids don't fall through the cracks in our world? Especially when they are being moved around every few months(or less). It would have been incredibly easy for Dean and Sam to be missed.   IMO that was part of the reason that made it so hard on them, just like in real life, what they were going through was hidden.

I agree. And whose eyebrow is even going to be raised by a couple clean-cut kids showing up in town? At first glance, I doubt anything would have seemed amiss. Sam was an exceptional student, and Dean was apparently keeping up in school fine, too. AFAIK, they didn't have obvious untreated health issues or injuries. John actively trained them to deflect and dissemble about their home life from a young age, because he didn't want them telling anyone about monsters -- and who would believe them anyway? (A metaphor if I ever heard one). And if people did suspect that the family was "going through a hard time," like that the kids didn't have enough food or enough supervision, IME the first response would probably have been to try and give them a discreet helping hand, not to call the authorities. By the time the response would have ramped up, the Winchesters would have already been off to the next town.

They seem to have been nice boys, so if they had stayed in the same place for a while, if nothing else, the neighborhood grandmas and their friends' parents might have noticed that things weren't great for them and picked up some slack, had them over for dinners, sleepovers, church, family outings, etc. But moving around all the time, they were really isolated and weren't even going to get very casual help like that.

To me, that's the most depressing part of their childhood. Their family was dysfunctional, but lots of families are dysfunctional. The thing is that they had no escape from it because they were so socially and psychologically isolated otherwise.

Edited February 28, 2019 by rue721

[mertensia]

On 2/27/2019 at 12:12 AM, AwesomO4000 said:

For me, I wonder if it's partly the changing times. I seem to remember from somewhere that back a while ago, the hoyay often used to be enjoyed for being just that. I remember the commentary/opinion being that in some cases, it was more fun when it was just hoyay. The tease was the appeal rather than the real thing. Not that canon same-sex couples weren't also appealing, but that for some characters, being in on the hoyay was part of the fun and the appeal. It was like subtext that true fans would get and be in on the fun - something just for those fans - and that it becoming actual text would take away from that.

I seem to remember fans in multiple different shows expressing that kind of opinion.

It used to be - waaaay back when - that making canon characters gay in your fanfic, or when talking about them, was seen as very edgy.  And boy, could some fans get vicious if you didn't agree that X or Y was gay. 

[ahrtee]

Not my UO, but I thought I'd pass it on.

I was talking to a friend's 20-something daughter and mentioned SPN.  She said she'd never watched it, but her friends had told her not to bother, because after the first few years, the same stories were just repeated over and over.  

[DeeDee79]

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Not my UO, but I thought I'd pass it on.

I was talking to a friend's 20-something daughter and mentioned SPN.  She said she'd never watched it, but her friends had told her not to bother, because after the first few years, the same stories were just repeated over and over.  

I can understand why they would see it that way but it’s also true of most television shows. They tend to find a formula that works for the show’s genre and stick with it. Although if that was their takeaway they must not have bothered to become invested in any of the characters and their individual stories. As stale as SPN seems these days more often than not IMO my continued interest in the characters makes watching (somewhat) worth it.

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I can understand why they would see it that way but it’s also true of most television shows. They tend to find a formula that works for the show’s genre and stick with it. Although if that was their takeaway they must not have bothered to become invested in any of the characters and their individual stories. As stale as SPN seems these days more often than not IMO my continued interest in the characters makes watching (somewhat) worth it.

I think that's the problem with binge-watching as opposed to a weekly build up (plus long hiatus(es?) for  speculation, wondering what's going to happen next). 

If you watch all the seasons at once, you can see all the flaws and repetitions too quickly (and don't have time to get too invested in characters before you start to get annoyed/tired of them.)  

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I think that's the problem with binge-watching as opposed to a weekly build up (plus long hiatus(es?) for  speculation, wondering what's going to happen next). 

If you watch all the seasons at once, you can see all the flaws and repetitions too quickly (and don't have time to get too invested in characters before you start to get annoyed/tired of them.)  

That’s very true. The anticipation and speculation about how the next episode would further the storyline was part of the fun of watching live.

[ILoveReading]

29 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

That’s very true. The anticipation and speculation about how the next episode would further the storyline was part of the fun of watching live.

This is the problem with this season.  There is very little anticipation and speculation because Dabb spoils it all.

It feels very much just like a retelling of Season 5.

[FlickChick]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

This is the problem with this season.  There is very little anticipation and speculation because Dabb spoils it all.

It feels very much just like a retelling of Season 5.

Which is yet ANOTHER REASON why Dabb should NOT be a showrunner. How many do we have now???

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, FlickChick said:

Which is yet ANOTHER REASON why Dabb should NOT be a showrunner. How many do we have now???

Way too many to count but more than enough to justify giving him the boot IMO.

[juppschmitz]

To me it feels like SPN is turning into a sis!fic with Jack as the little sister.

[OrigamiNightmare]

*preview* "We're on a hunt" ... Me: Why? Jack's the most powerful being in the universe ... why are there monsters, why is there a hunt ...

[OrigamiNightmare]

I've fanwanked and handwaved all sorts of things over the years, why is Jack the thing that's sticking in my craw? why is it I can't make sense of the character or his implications? Any ideas? Does anyone feel the same? What's wrong with me lol?

[Wateroflife]

On 3/10/2019 at 11:53 AM, juppschmitz said:

To me it feels like SPN is turning into a sis!fic with Jack as the little sister.

This is exactly correct.

[Bobcatkitten]

I think it's clear from how this season has gone that IN ADDITION to dropping to 20 episodes there is something in J2's contract limiting shooting days for each episode. And I'm not a fan. I honestly would rather they end the show than dilute it further with side storylines. 

[SueB]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I think it's clear from how this season has gone that IN ADDITION to dropping to 20 episodes there is something in J2's contract limiting shooting days for each episode. And I'm not a fan. I honestly would rather they end the show than dilute it further with side storylines. 

I think S14 is a 'test' of that new contract theory and so far, because it's been renewed for S15 - the theory is holding.  The key, IMO, will be if either rating fall to the .2 level (clearly that was the trigger for Arrow announcing it's final 10-episode season) or when they go back for the next round of negotiations (starting in Nov 19), the WB or the CW insist on more J2 time.  So long as they are the second rated show on the CW, I don't see a proposed contract change from WB or CW.  And the J's, thus far, seem delighted with their family time/work time balance. I'd be surprised if they pushed for even more time off.

One of the interesting things to me was the comment that repeated this past SPNNASH convention: the conventions provide "fuel" for them (said by Jensen).  I think it's absolutely true.  Most stars don't have the convention gigs to provide that direct fan feedback which boosts their energy and boost their income.  Watching the feedback from the periphery cast (Kim, Briana, Alaina....) they ALSO get a boost from conventions (see recent tweet from Briana).  For the J's I think the financial boost is becoming less important than the energy boost.  I think with both there has been a cyclical nature to their relationship with the show.  For both: the last month before Thanksgiving is tough because they've been working 'nonstop' since July.  For Jensen; he seems to struggle a bit in the January timeframe (post holiday family blues?). For Jared: he seems to be running on emotional and energy fumes in the last month of filming (i.e. in previous years that was April).  BOTH get really re-engaged in the summer with their families and going back to work in July is hard.  But Comic-Con gives them a boost.  September buzz gives them a boost.  And conventions give them 'fuel'.  With the new contracts, I think the additional time keeps Jared grounded in family, Jensen gets his family fix, and Jared probably benefits from not having to film in April.  So... I think they won't ask for more time off.  I'm sure they are aware that fandom is feeling their absence.  People haven't been shy with expressing it.  

Bottom Line:  I think we are seeing the new 'model' from a J2 contracting perspective.  It might also fit with where they want to take the show, but I think the contracts have the largest influence.  Ratings are holding - so I think this is what we can expect for future episodes. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

The key, IMO, will be if either rating fall to the .2 level (clearly that was the trigger for Arrow announcing it's final 10-episode season) 

Not at all. Their lead actor told them at the end of Season 6 that he wouldn`t be renewing his contract after it was up concluding Season 7. They worked out a compromise for a shortened 8th Season to have their annual x-over. Otherwise, that show would be going on.  

[ahrtee]

I think TPTB (the ones making the real behind-the-scenes decisions, not Dabb) are smarter than we give them credit for.  They obviously want to keep a show that has a built-in audience, BUT:

The current audience is (or has already) grown out of the most appealing (to them) demographics, and

The stars are getting long in the tooth for action heroes (I know 40 isn't that old, but on the CW it's into "dad" territory.)

They've already learned that spinoffs won't work.  So how can they continue the mothership and attract a younger crowd?  Add new, younger actors.  Start them now, blending them with the already-popular ones, get them accepted, then have the older ones fade into the background.  Keep them all around long enough to establish the newbies as the action heroes, then take away the older ones (or make them into the wise elders.)  

They're already attracting a new generation of young viewers through streaming services.  But the difference is that they can stream an entire 14 years of shows in just a few months, so they're not growing up (and old) together with the stars.  So the new viewers are looking for younger stars to identify with, and are more willing to accept changes than those of us who more or less grew up with the show.  

It's actually brilliant (from their POV).  Of course, it won't be *my* SPN, and I'll stop watching long before it mutates into a whole new show, but it is the only way to keep the mothership while attracting a new audience.  (I've never watched soaps, but isn't that how the long-running ones keep going?  By updating their characters, recycling plots and SLs to fit the new characters while still keeping the outline of the original show?)

Of course, they'd need better storylines and better writing.  And some more interesting characters.  And that's on the showrunner/writers. *sigh*

Edited March 17, 2019 by ahrtee

[gonzosgirrl]

42 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think S14 is a 'test' of that new contract theory and so far, because it's been renewed for S15 - the theory is holding.  The key, IMO, will be if either rating fall to the .2 level (clearly that was the trigger for Arrow announcing it's final 10-episode season) or when they go back for the next round of negotiations (starting in Nov 19), the WB or the CW insist on more J2 time.  So long as they are the second rated show on the CW, I don't see a proposed contract change from WB or CW.  And the J's, thus far, seem delighted with their family time/work time balance. I'd be surprised if they pushed for even more time off.

I don't think anyone begrudges shortened season to afford Jensen & Jared more time off. It's just unfortunate that these writers either can't, or are not interested in, writing solid stories that keep the stars of the show characters front and center throughout those 20 episodes, even if they aren't on screen as much. There is no excuse at all for the abomination that was Peace of Mind for Dean's character, especially as a follow up to Ouroboros. None.

Quote

One of the interesting things to me was the comment that repeated this past SPNNASH convention: the conventions provide "fuel" for them (said by Jensen).  I think it's absolutely true.  Most stars don't have the convention gigs to provide that direct fan feedback which boosts their energy and boost their income. 

And again, unfortunately, the only 'feedback' they get is sunshine filled smoke blown up their butts. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that attacking the actors with unpopular opinions about the writing (over which they apparently have no control) is the right thing to do. Not at all. But there are certainly ways to let them know that there are other opinions besides Zomg!!! you r so cuuuttteeee!!!!! Let's not pretend that's 'feedback'.

I wish the showrunner had the balls to answer to the fans' concerns - and not just the fangasmic adoration which is the only thing they respond to on social media. And don't buy the defense that they should write withing their bubble and not pay attention to the fan-noise. Not when they are so very clearly offering up fan-service in other ways.

Quote

Bottom Line:  I think we are seeing the new 'model' from a J2 contracting perspective.  It might also fit with where they want to take the show, but I think the contracts have the largest influence.  Ratings are holding - so I think this is what we can expect for future episodes. 

I don't think ratings have much to do with it at all at this point. I'm not even sure the Js have much to do with the direction of the show, so long as they are signing their contracts. What I do think is that in the meantime, they (Dabb & Co) are just going to keep throwing shit at the wall (Jack, AU people, town people, waywards) until something that can sustain the show beyond the Winchesters' eventual end, sticks. For me, that's something that I'm just not willing to watch. But then, it's not me they are making the show for any more.

ETA: @ahrtee you posted while I was typing. *high five*

Edited March 17, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

 that was the trigger for Arrow announcing it's final 10-episode season) o

Stephen Amell decided to leave thus Arrow will end. I don't think the ratings had anything to do with the episode order for s8. I think that had more to do with what SA was willing to do.

[juppschmitz]

(Crossposting from my tumblr:)

As long as sis!fic Jack and Mark Pellegrino are in any way involved in Supernatural, the show just isn’t for me anymore.

Jack bores me to tears and Mark Pellegrino’s characters are so obnoxious all I want is to non-stop bitch-slap them. I just can’t hit fast forward quickly enough whenever a Mark Pellegrino scene starts. (Literally.)

Sidelining Dean from his own story just to prop Jack’s story is as if someone had turned Wesley Crusher into Captain Picard. Just, no. I’m too old for this shit.

And as if Mark Pellegrino’s characters on Supernatural weren’t annoying enough I’ve just recently become aware of the political bullshit he spouts on twitter. Again, just no. (I probably shouldn’t let an actor’s political views influence my opinion of him as an actor, but, well, there you go.)

I guess I’ll just stick around and ~enjoy~ the show second-hand until things get better again (if at all). And in the meantime I’ll go looking for fanfic, where the writers still care about Dean.

[7kstar]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

One of the interesting things to me was the comment that repeated this past SPNNASH convention: the conventions provide "fuel" for them (said by Jensen).  I think it's absolutely true.  Most stars don't have the convention gigs to provide that direct fan feedback which boosts their energy and boost their income.  Watching the feedback from the periphery cast (Kim, Briana, Alaina....) they ALSO get a boost from conventions (see recent tweet from Briana).  For the J's I think the financial boost is becoming less important than the energy boost.

IA it gives them a boost for it reminds them why they do the show.  Coming from a stage actress perspective, performing live gives you immediate feedback.  Which does inspire a stronger performance.   I know when I had the audience laughing or could feel that they loved what I was doing it pushed me forward.  I also had to stay in the moment but that's another issue.  

So they do get some good fan questions and then they feel they are doing something worthwhile and it gives them the push to keep doing it.  They are smart enough to know that there is also those that hate some things that are happening but if you're tired you can't focus on that and keep going if that makes sense. 

So how much longer will they continue, no clue.  But I'm not loving it like I use to even though I really respect Jensen and like the chemistry between Jared and Jensen.  A show has to hold my attention and I'm finding myself doing other things as I watch and there was a time I gave my all to the show.  I may rewatch some this summer but right now I don't need to buy the season anymore.  But perhaps the new fans love the show enough for those of us that start leaving.

[FlickChick]

But here's the thing: I DON'T WANT to fast-forward through obnoxious characters' scenes; I DON'T WANT to busy myself with other things while watching; I DON'T WANT to quit the show, because I've watched it since the Pilot in 2005. What I WANT is a better showrunner, better writers, better scripts with better scenes for our lead characters even when they have fewer appearances due to more time off. I don't think this is asking for the moon. I think we, as fans, and especially as longtime fans, are due this. I don't believe there is a shortage of talented producers, writers, showrunners, etc. in the industry - whether in LA or Vancouver. This show, unfortunately, has let those talented people go and replaced them with piss-poor substitutes, IMO.

[Res]

52 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

But here's the thing: I DON'T WANT to fast-forward through obnoxious characters' scenes; I DON'T WANT to busy myself with other things while watching; I DON'T WANT to quit the show, because I've watched it since the Pilot in 2005. What I WANT is a better showrunner, better writers, better scripts with better scenes for our lead characters even when they have fewer appearances due to more time off. I don't think this is asking for the moon. I think we, as fans, and especially as longtime fans, are due this. I don't believe there is a shortage of talented producers, writers, showrunners, etc. in the industry - whether in LA or Vancouver. This show, unfortunately, has let those talented people go and replaced them with piss-poor substitutes, IMO.

Unfortunately there's not any way for us to let the higher ups know this as we as how many of us long time fans feel this way, is there? Unless someone here knows something that I don't, which is entirely possible. 

Anyways, I honestly don't think that they care either since this show is so long in the tooth. But hey I'd be willing to go there offices personally with a petition, etc., if anyone wanted to and/or thought it would do any good. Or if anyone thought we could even possibly get in. 

[PAForrest]

14 hours ago, FlickChick said:

But here's the thing: I DON'T WANT to fast-forward through obnoxious characters' scenes ... I don't believe there is a shortage of talented producers, writers, showrunners, etc. in the industry - whether in LA or Vancouver. This show, unfortunately, has let those talented people go and replaced them with piss-poor substitutes, IMO.

Well, all the talent went onto bigger and better projects as the years went by. But that's what actual talent does, especially BTS talent, like writers/producers. The older a show is, the longer it drags on the air, it simply becomes increasingly harder to attract good and seasoned writers/producers/editors, etc., to bother with that show. That show then becomes the kind of project newbies cut their teeth on. You know, like someone's assistant looking to break in her WGA card.

You're right, it's no fun FF'ing through a show you've spent years watching. But the thing is, I don't do that with literally any other show I watch, including long-time series. IF the showrunner is one who actually gives a damn about the show as a WHOLE, and not just his or her pet characters and Mary Sues, then the audience - who all have favorite characters, because that's normal, that's what happens - never gets the impression that their favorite character isn't always an active part of the episode or season-long arc from week to week. And even though everyone has his or her favorite character, they still tend to like all the characters when a showrunner and his/her writing staff put in the effort to write for all the characters regardless of personal preference.

I just don't feel like that's what's happening on Supernatural, and hasn't been for a number of seasons.

ETA: Back at the beginning of the series, even though Sam was set up as "special" and even though Kripke indicated that Sam as his avatar, and even though there were episodes I thought were crap, I never felt like Dean wasn't an integral part of the story for the first 5-1/2 years, even though I saw complaints about favoritism back then too. But for me the whole was working up to that point. Then change happened.

Edited March 18, 2019 by PAForrest

[Myrelle]

13 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

Coupled with the fact that I don't really think they'd *want* to put in that kind of extra effort & how they really haven't gone out of their way to give him good material even as is. I really don't think "they" (not being Jensen) could

My main point was that they wouldn't have to give him "good material" for him to appear in every episode.

They could likely even maintain the status quo in even an easier and more lazy manner/fashion for them, in all honesty.

Shoot, they could go to their soap opera well even more so by just having Dean in a coma and only able to twitch a finger or an eye lid if all they want or need from Dean/JA is an appearance in an episode, and for even an extended period of time.

Edited March 30, 2019 by Myrelle
Revision

[Myrelle]

Just now, PinkChicken said:

oh yeah true

they could still flip again and find a reason to put him in the box if they really wanted lol

I think id rather they killed Dean altogether before they tried to do a season like that though. because I think there is 0 chance it would be done well.

Who would care as long as the twitter and tumblr audience was happy?

It would be the last season of the show and it's what they've been doing for the last three seasons, anyway, and they could likely bring him in more for the final episodes.

And if he was working on something  else, his own fandom would be more than thrilled.

I know that I would be. For sure.