Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[companionenvy]

Agree with Katy M. It is ambiguous enough in TSRTS that if the writers had wanted to later establish that Mary still remembered the original visit from ItB, there was room to do so, but it is also pretty reasonable to think that the angels would have made her forget meeting Dean entirely, even if they didn't spell it out.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Nobody said that it didn't happen.  Just that Michael wiped it from their memories.  And TBH, I understood it to mean wiping Dean completely from their memories (including the In the Beginning) visit back when Michael originally said it in S5.  So, I don't feel like Mary not remembering is canon being igorned, but canon being honored for once.  Of course it happened.  Samuel and Deanna were both still dead.  The deal with YED still happened.  John still had the Impala.  Mary and John just don't remember Dean being there. 

Well we`re never going to agree on this one. For me, it`s a retcon at best, ignoring canon at worst. Given their penchant for the latter, I don`t have any problem believing this is the case here, too.

[Katy M]

Last thing I'll say n the subject

 

MICHAEL
Scrub their minds. They won't remember me or you.

DEAN
You can't do that.

MICHAEL
I'm just giving your mother what she wants. She can go back to her husband, her family—

DEAN
She's gonna walk right into that nursery!

 

If Michael didn't scrub In the Beginning Dean from her mind, she would have remembered him and there would be no guarantee that she wouldn't walk into the nursery.

[gonzosgirrl]

Well it was and is my impression that Michael was talking about the events that transpired in that episode. 

[companionenvy]

That's fair, but it doesn't make going with Katy M's interpretation - which, as I indicated earlier, I do think makes more logical sense - a retcon. There's room for either. At the very least, it would seem that Michael would have to have scrubbed her memory of Dean's original warning. 

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

That's fair, but it doesn't make going with Katy M's interpretation - which, as I indicated earlier, I do think makes more logical sense - a retcon.

This all comes down to how one interprets a retcon. For me, it's a big enough change that alters how I view the past SL, so for me that's a retcon.  YMMV

[ILoveReading]

My interpretation has always been that Michael wiped Dean's visits but not the original deal. 

Because Mary recongnized the YED instantly, and during home she apologized to Sam.  That suggests she remembered what she did. 

Even if she didn't remember the deal, it clearly showed that Mary was still hunting, so when lights started flickering she should have been a little bit suspicious.   Either way she stuck in her head in the sand.

I still beleive that had she not been killed, she would have gotten bored of the whole wife/mother thing and left anyway.  It's my head canon that the reason John left is he caught Mary lying about where she'd been.

[Pondlass1]

Very interesting posts.  I'm wish I was more of a connoisseur of the Show as so many here. I forget a lot of things.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I still beleive that had she not been killed, she would have gotten bored of the whole wife/mother thing and left anyway

It could have happened. Of the two parents I prefer John, I 'get' him.  But both were far from perfect during their marriage.  Apparently Mary left the family home and went on at least one hunt (to Canada of all places) and John wasn't exactly faithful in the marriage. There's a scene where young Dean is comforting mom while she's on the phone (before John became a revenge crazy hunter) so he had a wandering eye. And then there's Adam who, apparently, got more dad time than Sam and Dean.

I guess no family is perfect.

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

My interpretation has always been that Michael wiped Dean's visits but not the original deal. 

Because Mary recongnized the YED instantly, and during home she apologized to Sam.  That suggests she remembered what she did. 

She definitely recognized Azazel, so I don't think anyone is suggesting she didn't remember any of the events of In the Beginning. Just that her memory was modified in such a way that she doesn't remember meeting Dean, specifically. Given that we're dealing with a supernatural memory wipe, that's totally possible; as I think Katy mentioned earlier, some version of that kind of thing has to have been done to Lisa and Ben, unless we assume they're walking around with almost no memory at all of multiple years of their lives. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Here's my unpopular opinion. I'm frustrated with the lack of enthusiasm over the show from the main cast and TPTB. Every other show I watch, the stars are tweeting from set, sharing stuff, just happy to be back in general. They are shooting episode six already and it's pretty much radio silence from Jensen, Jared and Misha as far as SPN is concerned. The CW hasn't released anything with the premiere a month away, and the interview tidbits from Dabb & Co are confusing and contradicting. It's like nobody cares. I know they are all very busy - but so is everybody else, and it literally takes seconds to tweet.

Edited September 12, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Bobcatkitten]

Not unpopular with me. The show is essentially on autopilot. They don't do anything to promote really and just stay in their comfortable little box. 

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Here's my unpopular opinion. I'm frustrated with the lack of enthusiasm over the show from the main cast and TPTB. Every other show I watch, the stars are tweeting from set, sharing stuff, just happy to be back in general. They are shooting episode six already and it's pretty much radio silence from Jensen, Jared and Misha as far as SPN is concerned. The CW hasn't released anything with the premiere a month away, and the interview tidbits from Dabb & Co are confusing and contradicting. It's like nobody cares. I know they are all very busy - but so is everybody else, and it literally takes seconds to tweet.

[ILoveReading]

33 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Here's my unpopular opinion. I'm frustrated with the lack of enthusiasm over the show from the main cast and TPTB. Every other show I watch, the stars are tweeting from set, sharing stuff, just happy to be back in general. They are shooting episode six already and it's pretty much radio silence from Jensen, Jared and Misha as far as SPN is concerned. The CW hasn't released anything with the premiere a month away, and the interview tidbits from Dabb & Co are confusing and contradicting. It's like nobody cares. I know they are all very busy - but so is everybody else, and it literally takes seconds to tweet.

Not unpopular with me.  I think there was more enthusiasm over the parody. 

[FlickChick]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Not unpopular with me.  I think there was more enthusiasm over the parody. 

Not unpopular with me as well. And isn't it sad, that they all simply seem to not give a shit about this show. And worse yet - that the parody would garner more attention. Makes me wonder if I should spend MY time if they can't spend THEIR time.

[SueB]

I agree we’ve had very little.  I’m holding off judgement till I see whether it is necessary for maintaining secrecy.  

[gonzosgirrl]

6 hours ago, SueB said:

I agree we’ve had very little.  I’m holding off judgement till I see whether it is necessary for maintaining secrecy.  

Every show has plotlines they don't want spoiled. They still manage to promote their shows. 

[MysteryGuest]

I have seen some promo pics out and about on Tumblr.  Personally, I think this show always gives too much of their storyline away, so if they're trying to not do that this season, I'm all for it.  Little hints are fine, but surprises are good.

[BlueSapphire]

Maybe it's just me, but while I find some of the con photo-ops cute and clever, I get weirded out by the ones in which the con-goer wants the guys to look and hold her in a sort of way that implies a loving relationship, like holding hands, looking deep into the other's eyes, or face touching.  To me, that is way more creepy than cute.

[devlin]

59 minutes ago, BlueSapphire said:

Maybe it's just me, but while I find some of the con photo-ops cute and clever, I get weirded out by the ones in which the con-goer wants the guys to look and hold her in a sort of way that implies a loving relationship, like holding hands, looking deep into the other's eyes, or face touching.  To me, that is way more creepy than cute.

 Not just you. I don’t understand it all.After all, these guys  are complete strangers. I also find it completely entitled of the con-goer.

[Hana Chan]

I really, really, really miss Sam's powers and we never got any real reason why they totally vanished. 

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, Hana Chan said:

I really, really, really miss Sam's powers and we never got any real reason why they totally vanished. 

I recall reading that Kripke discarded the physic Sam storyline because he grew bored with it and wanted to move onto something new. I wish I could remember where I read it; I think it was linked on Tumblr.

[ILoveReading]

2 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

I really, really, really miss Sam's powers and we never got any real reason why they totally vanished.

I thought they were linked with Azazel and the demon blood.   When they were gone so where  his powers.  I always believed that when Ruby told him he didn't need the feather to fly, she meant the choices Sam was making.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I thought they were linked with Azazel and the demon blood.   When they were gone so where  his powers.  I always believed that when Ruby told him he didn't need the feather to fly, she meant the choices Sam was making.

That's what I think, too.  When he was getting visions, with the exception of Home , they were all directly linked to Azazel or the other psy-kids.  Sure, he moved that bureau that one time with his mind, and in Asylum he said that he could sense things, but that was obviously a bunch of BS, because he didn't sense Maggie in Playthings when she ran by him 2 inches away.

[Bobcatkitten]

I agree I don't really know what happened to them but I want the brothers to be human with no powers when fighting demons etc. I like that better. 

[SueB]

11 hours ago, Katy M said:

That's what I think, too.  When he was getting visions, with the exception of Home , they were all directly linked to Azazel or the other psy-kids.  Sure, he moved that bureau that one time with his mind, and in Asylum he said that he could sense things, but that was obviously a bunch of BS, because he didn't sense Maggie in Playthings when she ran by him 2 inches away.

I don't know.  I remember Cas' line in '99 problems': "Sam, of course, is an abomination." I can interpret that line as being more than just a statement on his moral qualities.  I know it's just one throw-away line and I am NOT that person that hinges everything on a single line from a single episode when we've got nearly 300 episodes full of lines.  But, my personal opinion is pre-trials Sam definitely still had something supernatural about him and his main problem was a mental blockage.  He simply couldn't access his powers.  Azazel's involvement kickstarted them.  The demon blood was apparently enough to overcome that mental block. And demon blood worked again in S5 in "My Bloody Valentine" even AFTER Ruby said he didn't need the feather to fly. I always presumed the demon blood was the 'feather'.  

But I think a case can be made that the S8 trials DID in fact purify Sam's blood.  Cas said the trial was changing Sam; "It's something on the subatomic level and his electromagnetic field --" (S8: 'Goodbye Strangers').  Now that certainly should have been enough to distort whatever the demon blood did in the first place. 

Having said all that, there's always a healthy dose of plotonium around to say the powers are back because they didn't actually go away.  Sam just thought they did.  But I'd be surprised if they went there again.  Sam's mental pathways are pretty set now.  When you're 22, you're brain is still developing (up til 25... seriously, there's a reason your auto insurance drops at that age).  By now Sam is 36, I don't know if he could reactivate those powers even if he miraculously lost that mental block.  If he didn't do it during Soulless Sam, how would he do it now?

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, SueB said:

If he didn't do it during Soulless Sam, how would he do it now?

Two words: Andrew Dabb

He has done so many things with questionable canon, outright disregard of canon and pulling things out of his butt (see: Mark Pellegrino). If he wants Sam to have powers, or be the Boy King after all, then so shall it be.

[SueB]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Two words: Andrew Dabb

He has done so many things with questionable canon, outright disregard of canon and pulling things out of his butt (see: Mark Pellegrino). If he wants Sam to have powers, or be the Boy King after all, then so shall it be.

Possible, but honestly, it seems like it would regress Sam's character IMO.

 

In other unpopular opinion news: I like Mary.  I forgave her when Dean forgave her.  I'm not going to debate anyone on this opinion, BTW.  It's just how I feel.

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, SueB said:

Possible, but honestly, it seems like it would regress Sam's character IMO.

If he had Sam sprout wings and fly, it would not surprise me at this point.

1 minute ago, SueB said:

In other unpopular opinion news: I like Mary.  I forgave her when Dean forgave her.  I'm not going to debate anyone on this opinion, BTW.  It's just how I feel.

No debate, just complete disagreement. Dean forgave her, and then she chose to abandon them again, after one son literally died trying to bring her home.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If he had Sam sprout wings and fly, it would not surprise me at this point.

I legit LOL'd at this. 

[Katy M]

10 hours ago, SueB said:

I don't know.  I remember Cas' line in '99 problems': "Sam, of course, is an abomination." I can interpret that line as being more than just a statement on his moral qualities.  I know it's just one throw-away line and I am NOT that person that hinges everything on a single line from a single episode when we've got nearly 300 episodes full of lines.  But, my personal opinion is pre-trials Sam definitely still had something supernatural about him and his main problem was a mental blockage.  He simply couldn't access his powers.  Azazel's involvement kickstarted them.  The demon blood was apparently enough to overcome that mental block. And demon blood worked again in S5 in "My Bloody Valentine" even AFTER Ruby said he didn't need the feather to fly. I always presumed the demon blood was the 'feather'.  

Sure, he's always going to have the demon blood in him.  But, I think he doesn't have *enough*.  When yellow eyes was alive, his existence let "his kids" tap into their powers with just the few drops.  But, after he was gone, Sam had to drink more to be able to use his powers.

[Jeddah]

11 hours ago, SueB said:

In other unpopular opinion news: I like Mary.  I forgave her when Dean forgave her.  I'm not going to debate anyone on this opinion, BTW.  It's just how I feel.

@SueB I always find myself agreeing with you. I thought I was the only one who likes Mary!

[mertensia]

8 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

@SueB I always find myself agreeing with you. I thought I was the only one who likes Mary!

No, I like Mary, too.

[Hana Chan]

I don't love Mary, but I do get why her relationship with the boys isn't exactly maternal. Before she died, Dean was very young and Sam was an infant and that was how she related to them in Heaven. Now suddenly they are grown men with a ton of emotional scars, more than a few of which are due to her past actions. Mary having problems relating to them and dealing with just being alive again is probably the most genuine way they could have handled her return.

[gonzosgirrl]

28 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

I don't love Mary, but I do get why her relationship with the boys isn't exactly maternal. Before she died, Dean was very young and Sam was an infant and that was how she related to them in Heaven. Now suddenly they are grown men with a ton of emotional scars, more than a few of which are due to her past actions. Mary having problems relating to them and dealing with just being alive again is probably the most genuine way they could have handled her return.

I think a large part of the dislike of Mary as it relates to Dean and Sam is that she doesn't even try, and hasn't from the start. If nothing else, her guilt over what their lives became should have her at least trying to make it up to them. That would be realistic to me. And if her guilt drove her away from them completely, that I could also understand and accept as 'real'. But this ice queen, who seems to want it both ways (the respect due a mother, but none of the emotional responsibility), is just hateful to me. Don't even get me started on the uber-hunter, badass extraordinaire aspect of the character. The moment she told Dean he was not a child in response to his plea for her to be a mom for a change sealed the deal for me. Any cracks that maybe have been opened in my disdain for her in 12x22 were quickly taken care of by her desire to once again leave her sons behind for another life with Jack and her new 'family' in the AU.

[mertensia]

In a certain sense, they aren't family. Mary is exactly like that family member who sits in an Indonesian jail for 20 years on drug charges,  no one visits, and she comes home to strangers. Heck, people coming back from fighting in World War 2 for a couple of years came back to people they no longer knew or felt anything for. 

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, mertensia said:

In a certain sense, they aren't family. Mary is exactly like that family member who sits in an Indonesian jail for 20 years on drug charges,  no one visits, and she comes home to strangers. Heck, people coming back from fighting in World War 2 for a couple of years came back to people they no longer knew or felt anything for. 

I don't disagree that Mary had reason to be, or at least to feel, estranged from these grown men. My argument is that the Mary they showed us in every instance in the past (except for the uber-bitch in Zachariah's fantasy*) seems like a woman who would have tried harder. Or, you know, at all. Or shown some remorse and regret that she couldn't feel these things. Like I said, IMO, what we got, through a combination of writing and Sam Smith's portrayal, is a selfish, self-absorbed woman who wants it both ways, leaning heavily toward the nothing-to-do-with-them side of the equation.

*ironically, she seems closer to this Mary than the warm, caring person we knew.

[ahrtee]

36 minutes ago, mertensia said:

In a certain sense, they aren't family. Mary is exactly like that family member who sits in an Indonesian jail for 20 years on drug charges,  no one visits, and she comes home to strangers. Heck, people coming back from fighting in World War 2 for a couple of years came back to people they no longer knew or felt anything for. 

Except Mary wasn't being tortured or traumatized during those missing 20 (or so) years.  She was in her ideal dream world, which *by her own account* was at home with her husband and two young children, not hunting or leading rebels against the stormtroopers.  So I was perfectly able to understand why she might not be able to relate to two men, older than her, calling her "mom."  What I can't understand is why she immediately turned to hunting instead of even trying to connect, especially after she read John's journal about everything they'd been through.  Those missing years were filled with maternal caring and family, so even if she couldn't equate the current men with her children, she should still have shown some maternal instinct somewhere in the year before Jack apparently triggered it.  

[Myrelle]

Quote

For me the difference is that I don't think Carver's intention was to throw Sam under the bus. 

Quote

 

Whether he intended it or not, Sam got run over by a fast-moving Greyhound and never really recovered.  But then, he never recovered from season four or five, so that's nothing new.

I look at the difference in how similar storylines have been handled and how the audience was asked to few Sam and Dean through them and there is a very clear bias against Sam. Let's take season five, when Dean is living with Lisa and Ben after Sam went into the cage. We had time jump after Sam went into the cage that showed Dean very much settled into civilian life. He had a job and a comfortable domestic relationship with Lisa and Ben. He played golf and went to neighborhood cookouts. We saw him doing some basic protections around the house with devil traps under the rugs. What we didn't see? Anything to show that he was actively trying to free Sam from the cage. He wasn't chasing down leads only to be disappointed that they didn't pan out. It was clear that he was haunted by Sam's loss, but he was at least accepting that Sam was gone.

When Sam did return, Dean didn't go running out the door to rejoin Sam on the road. He felt an obligation to Lisa and Ben and despite being happy that Sam was alive, he wasn't in any hurry to rejoin Sam hunting. He started treating it as a past time, going only once he has Lisa's blessing to do so and all the while Dean was clearly torn between the two lives he was trying to lead. And Sam was acting strangely enough to justify Dean’s reluctance to totally give up his homey life.

What we didn’t get? Anything from Sam’s POV during all these episodes. It was justified that because Sam was soulless at the time that to have any real POV would give away the “mystery” but the end result was that we were asked to completely sympathize with Dean’s conflict that Sam’s presence was taking Dean away from the life that he’d always wanted. Even after Dean learned that Sam’s soul was still trapped in the cage (thanks to Castiel), it was a very extended period before he took real measures to get it out and the impression became that his concern was that Sam was too dangerous without his soul and not quite so much that Sam’s soul was being “hate-banged” by two archangels. It was only after Appointment in Samara that we started to get any POV moments for Sam over what he’d been through and his current state and a lot of the emotional focus of the season was on Dean and his being apart from Lisa and having to leave her for good in order to protect her.

Now we get Sam and Amelia and unlike Dean and Lisa, the focus wasn’t on Sam and why he abandoned hunting to live with this woman or what their relationship actual entailed. Because there was no “mystery” about what happened to Dean while he was in Purgatory, the show focused on him and what he’d been through. Unlike Soulless Sam, Dean had free rein to express his anger and hurt at Sam over Sam apparently choosing a normal life while he was away and suffering. Sam’s actions were painted very clearly as being selfish because he never tried to look for Dean and if he expressed any reluctance to remain in the hunting life, it was a clear expression of disloyalty. And Dean had a new ally (Benny) that he could parade in front of Sam as being more trustworthy and loyal whenever Dean felt that Sam might be drifting. Even Dean’s friendship with a deadly monster that saved his life was held up as being more valuable than Sam’s bond with the kitsune that had saved his life (and Dean felt full justification in killing her behind Sam’s back). Dean spent most of the season castigating Sam for his actions and because the audience never got to see anything about why Sam did what he did, we had no reason to think he had any valid reasons for doing this.

So now we have a storyline where Dean is absent (for the moment) and Sam has got the primary emotional POV. There’s a brief time jump since Micheal put on his Dean prom dress and Sam is shown chasing down every lead he can in order to save his brother, neglecting himself and trying to lead a group of allies. For once, his emotions and how he’s being affected is being given more than a cursory notice and I’m not going to feel badly about it. It’s very long overdue.

 

Brought over from the B vs J thread because I think that my comment is simply going to be more of an UO than a B vs J issue.

I can only speak for myself when I say that JP just doesn't do it for me as an actor who can really bring it in regards to pretty much anything, but especially with anything other than the more negative emotions where emo is concerned. He can do anger, resentment, and jealousy well, but humility, concern, and understanding(and especially the first one) are still a big challenge for him, again IMO-not to mention the more complex emotions where he'd have to convey more than one emotion at the same time. And I'm sure that working with someone who is far better than most other actors at this doesn't help his cause at all; and it's a double-edged sword for JA , too, in that the writers won't let him do anything else because the emo is a forte for him, albeit just one of his fortes, IMO. He has much better range than JP, IMO, but we don't get to see it as much because(again IMO), the writers work more primarily around JP's limitations as an actor, than they do around JA's many strengths in that regard-and this, likely because JP is No. 1 on the call sheet. 

Both actors have been challenged by the writing on this show, time and time again, IMO, but where Jensen can often rise above it and elevate most of the material he's been given as in the DomesticatedDean sl, JP just kind of folds to me when he's not doing something that he wants to do-as in the Amelia storyline(and in that case, we got a triple whammy of poor acting and poor writing, as I think Amelia was written as little more than a bitch, at least at the outset of that storyline)-but even when he's doing what he wants to do, I still find his performances lacking in many ways.

So like I said, it might be an UO, but at this point, I feel that if not as many in the viewing audience are able to see the Sam that some here can see, have ever seen, or still see, then maybe it's because JP just isn't able to elevate the writing as well as JA can and has for their respective characters over the years.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Myrelle

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But this ice queen, who seems to want it both ways (the respect due a mother, but none of the emotional responsibility), is just hateful to me. Don't even get me started on the uber-hunter, badass extraordinaire aspect of the character.

This is it, in a nutshell, for me as regards Mary Susan Winchester now.

And both the writers AND Sam Smith's extremely mediocre acting abilities have ruined the character for good for me.

And even if it hurts the brothers, I truly wish with all my heart that they would just kill Mary off again at this point.

I think the show would improve immensely without her taking up any more screen-time.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Myrelle

[sarthaz]

UO: I'm ready for them to end the show. I've been around a long time and loved a great many televisions shows, and while I know intellectually that Supernatural isn't the greatest show of all time, it's very possibly my favorite. But the writing has been such a shit show for so long. They ruined Crowley. They ruined Mary. They're ruining Cas. They're shitting all over canon, and now we don't even get Dean. It's just too much to take to watch them do this to our show and these characters, and at this point, I wish someone over there would just say, "It's been fun, but enough is enough. Go home, everyone."

[Pondlass1]

My  UO is that Jensen has gone along with the clumsy, dense, glutton act a little too willingly.  Dean is not a joke.  He started out just as smart or maybe even smarter than his brother.  .

It's damn annoying.

[ukgirl71]

I’m probably not going to express this terribly well, and I do like the guy, but every time Jared tries to bring the ‘big’ emotions, he reminds me of a horse about to charge - when his chest starts to ‘puff’ and heave, I half expect his foot to start pawing the dirt!

[Ninamags]

2 hours ago, sarthaz said:

UO: I'm ready for them to end the show. I've been around a long time and loved a great many televisions shows, and while I know intellectually that Supernatural isn't the greatest show of all time, it's very possibly my favorite. But the writing has been such a shit show for so long. They ruined Crowley. They ruined Mary. They're ruining Cas. They're shitting all over canon, and now we don't even get Dean. It's just too much to take to watch them do this to our show and these characters, and at this point, I wish someone over there would just say, "It's been fun, but enough is enough. Go home, everyone."

That would fall to Jensen and Jared. Every time they complain about being away from their families, I'm like WTF, can't they have their families up there with them? It's not like their respective wives are busy doing other stuff. They are not acting full-time somewhere else. The kids can go to school pretty much anywhere. 

They have an expensive life-style and they are unwilling to give up the gravy train. Never mind that doing conventions would still guarantee some sort of income, if that was their concern. 

Sometimes it's palpable that they are only there to collect a paycheck. All that stuff about still being passionate about the show is BS. If they were still passionate about what they are producing, they would have more of a say as far as what is actually happening on the show. The story lines are repetative and frankly, boring.  

[auntvi]

2 hours ago, Lastcall said:

He has much better range than JP, IMO, but we don't get to see it as much because(again IMO), the writers work more primarily around JP's limitations as an actor, than they do around JA's many strengths in that regard-and this, likely because JP is No. 1 on the call sheet. 

Very unpopular opinion for this group, but I think that in the past few years especially Jared gives a lot of thought to his performance and has done a very good job capturing Sam's emotions. On the other hand, I think Jensen has a much more limited range and has been doing the same things for 14 yrs, which is why he has trouble playing any other character. IMO.

[BabySpinach]

5 minutes ago, ukgirl71 said:

I’m probably not going to express this terribly well, and I do like the guy, but every time Jared tries to bring the ‘big’ emotions, he reminds me of a horse about to charge - when his chest starts to ‘puff’ and heave, I half expect his foot to start pawing the dirt!

Yup, the huffing and puffing + flaring nostrils. Literally after every one of Sam's fight scenes/moments of exertion, Jared does that. Makes me wonder how good Sam's cardio actually is, lol. I feel that the exaggerated huffing kind of undermines whatever badass line follows, for example in last week's episode.

Jared also has this weird tic where he furrows his brow and smiles briefly for about 0.01 seconds. It's like a twitch of the mouth and it bothers me. 

[gonzosgirrl]

27 minutes ago, auntvi said:

Very unpopular opinion for this group, but I think that in the past few years especially Jared gives a lot of thought to his performance and has done a very good job capturing Sam's emotions. On the other hand, I think Jensen has a much more limited range and has been doing the same things for 14 yrs, which is why he has trouble playing any other character. IMO.

IMO Jared got some very bad acting advice or coaching somewhere between seasons 3 and 4. Or he read some bad fanfic about the power of his bitch-face and puppy dog eyes, because those became his go-to expressions: constipated or sad. He was much, much better in the early seasons.

[sarthaz]

1 hour ago, Ninamags said:

That would fall to Jensen and Jared. Every time they complain about being away from their families, I'm like WTF, can't they have their families up there with them? It's not like their respective wives are busy doing other stuff. They are not acting full-time somewhere else. The kids can go to school pretty much anywhere. 

They have an expensive life-style and they are unwilling to give up the gravy train. Never mind that doing conventions would still guarantee some sort of income, if that was their concern. 

Sometimes it's palpable that they are only there to collect a paycheck. All that stuff about still being passionate about the show is BS. If they were still passionate about what they are producing, they would have more of a say as far as what is actually happening on the show. The story lines are repetative and frankly, boring.  

While I agree that it's up to them, I disagree with your criticism of their choices. They're from Texas. They want to raise their kids in Texas among extended family and friends. I respect that. Vancouver isn't Texas. Seattle isn't Texas. My best friend had a great career and life where I live, and when he had kids, he packed up and moved across the country to raise them in his hometown around all his relatives. That's what people do.

As far as the paycheck and the gravy train, I think both these men are smart enough to realize that it isn't going to get any better than this, and I don't mean the paycheck. One of the enduring stories from this show is that the cast and crew love doing it. They don't fight and stir up shit and cause a bunch of stupid drama. It's a job, and it's a job that doesn't suck, and that's hard to find, especially in this industry. On some artistic level, sure, I guess I'd like JA to stand up and say, "I'm an artist, and the quality isn't there any more, so let's pack it up." But I don't fault him for a second for not doing it. His next job won't be as good. And neither will the one after that. In all likelihood, he will never do anything as a professional that he enjoys as much as this, and he has to know that.

But while JA/JP could end the show if they wanted, I don't think they have much say in the writing. "You do your actor stuff, and we'll do our camera stuff" is still true, even if they're the stars.

[Ninamags]

I've also always wondered why they haven't given them producer or executive producer credits.

Tom Welling was made EP on his show and his run was way shorter. 

Why haven't they asked or demanded this? THEN they could have a say in storylines. 

[SueB]

5 minutes ago, Ninamags said:

I've also always wondered why they haven't given them producer or executive producer credits.

Tom Welling was made EP on his show and his run was way shorter. 

Why haven't they asked or demanded this? THEN they could have a say in storylines. 

When asked that specific question (maybe Paylefest?) they said they feel they have enough influence on the creative side of the show and that the title is just a title that wouldn't change how much they are involved.  Often its also used to provide actors more money per episode.  I think the boys want more time than more money -- personally I think they are managing this pretty brilliantly.  

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

IMO Jared got some very bad acting advice or coaching somewhere between seasons 3 and 4. Or he read some bad fanfic about the power of his bitch-face and puppy dog eyes, because those became his go-to expressions: constipated or sad. He was much, much better in the early seasons.

I agree. When I rewatch the earlier seasons I always think about how much better his acting was in comparison to later seasons. I think that Jensen has much better range and I thought so back when my preferences between the brothers were pretty evenly split. I never get bored when Dean’s on screen! ?

[devlin]

Maybe I am wrong but I have always correlated an actor’s range to their ability to bring a single character’s many emotions  and motivations to life, and not how many characters they have played. On that note I personally think he far surpasses any actor on this show. So I thank Jensen for bringing convincingly to life one of the most complex and intricate characters I have had the pleasure of watching and I am looking forward to his work this season.