Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[Wayward Son]

Just now, Katy M said:

I agree, but that's why I'm afraid of what's to come based on the end of last week's episode.

I'm keeping myself hopeful! Based on season 11 (which Dabb apparently did most of the plotting for despite Carver still being the official showrunner) and 12 so far Dabb doesn't seem to share Carver's love of using Sam vs Dean to keep things "interesting". 

[Zolo]

Just now, Wayward Son said:

I'm sorry to hear you're not enjoying the season so far @Zolo . I'm enjoying it (and season 11) more than I've enjoyed the show in years, but I think that's mainly down to the fact I'm just relieved to get a break from the brother on brother angst that made up seasons 8-10! 

Thanks. I still enjoy it in a way, and there were even episodes that I really, really loved. I thought "Everybody still hates Hitler" and "Three Winchesters are better than one" were excellent episodes, back to back even, right? That was a really good mini-run, but then again, I hate the living crap out of the British Men of Letters storyline.

It's obviously full of plotholes, but even if you ignore that, it's just doesn't pack a punch for me. They could still do something with it I guess, but I'm not holding my breath. One thing is for sure, if Toni Bevell turns out to be the villain of this season, I am going to cry. That first few episodes were a torture for me too, not just for Dean. 

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, Zolo said:

Thanks. I still enjoy it in a way, and there were even episodes that I really, really loved. I thought "Everybody still hates Hitler" and "Three Winchesters are better than one" were excellent episodes, back to back even, right? That was a really good mini-run, but then again, I hate the living crap out of the British Men of Letters storyline.

It's obviously full of plotholes, but even if you ignore that, it's just doesn't pack a punch for me. They could still do something with it I guess, but I'm not holding my breath. One thing is for sure, if Toni Bevell turns out to be the villain of this season, I am going to cry. That first few episodes were a torture for me too, not just for Dean. 

The episodes you're referring to are actually called The One You've Been Waiting For and Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox. I think if I remember right the titles you used were just headlines from the episode synopsis :) 

I agree though that both were excellent episodes. I also thought we got a good run from Lily Sunder has Some Regrets through to Stuck in the Middle (with You). The main duds (for me at least) were Rock Never Dies and LOTUS.

Im not too sure what they're doing with Lady Toni! I think they might have written her out realising how bad the audience response to her was. I'll not say anymore than that to avoid entering into speculation territory :)

Edited March 9, 2017 by Wayward Son

[sarthaz]

On 3/8/2017 at 11:43 AM, sarthaz said:

I read your responses and tried to see your perspectives, but Paint it Black is on TNT right now, and my case against Season 10 feels really strong at the moment. :)

OK, I'll back off.  The run from Inside Man to Brother's Keeper is really strong.  I don't particularly love Inside Man (hate the Surly Bobbies re-imagining of Heaven), and Angel Heart is kinda blah, but I love me some Stynes, and I really love murderous rampage Dean.

UO Alert: The Prisoner would have been epic had Sam killed Crowley and Dean killed Castiel. Love both Characters but am kind of done with them.  In rewatch, Crowley's resurgence of evil scene rings particularly hollow since he remains a gruff sidekick moving forward and nothing really changes.  That scene reminds me of Alpha Vamp saying "see you next season."  I got so excited and then ... fizzle.

[Zolo]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

The episodes you're referring to are actually called The One You've Been Waiting For and Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox. I think if I remember right the titles you used were just headlines from the episode synopsis :) 

I agree though that both were excellent episodes. I also thought we got a good run from Lily Sunder has Some Regrets through to Stuck in the Middle (with You). The main duds (for me at least) were Rock Never Dies and LOTUS.

Im not too sure what they're doing with Lady Toni! I think they might have written her out realising how bad the audience response to her was. I'll not say anymore than that to avoid entering into speculation territory :)

Yeah, I wanted to look up the titles now, and instead found the headlines. :) Oh, I hope they wrote her behind out, that would be amazing. :)

[DeeDee79]

6 hours ago, sarthaz said:

OK, I'll back off.  The run from Inside Man to Brother's Keeper is really strong.  I don't particularly love Inside Man (hate the Surly Bobbies re-imagining of Heaven), and Angel Heart is kinda blah, but I love me some Stynes, and I really love murderous rampage Dean.

UO Alert: The Prisoner would have been epic had Sam killed Crowley and Dean killed Castiel. Love both Characters but am kind of done with them.  In rewatch, Crowley's resurgence of evil scene rings particularly hollow since he remains a gruff sidekick moving forward and nothing really changes.  That scene reminds me of Alpha Vamp saying "see you next season."  I got so excited and then ... fizzle.

Yes! I loved Dean in those episodes. I thought that the Stynes had to the potential to be interesting recurring villains; since they had such a long legacy I thought that they would be a little harder to kill. As for Crowley and Castiel I like both characters but as I've stated before on this thread if they were no longer around it wouldn't impact my enjoyment of the show. Crowley hasn't been a true adversary for seasons and there's only so much more Angel strife that they can write about. At the end of the day I watch for the brothers.

[Katy M]

I'm not sure if this is an unpopular opinion or not, but I hate how the monsters seem to have become easier to kill over the years.  In season 1, vampires were strong and formidable enemies. Now, Sam or Dean can take out a nest single-handedly and any hunter who can't is considered below par.  Also, I think it's stupid that you can knock out a demon by punching him.  Really? 

[sarthaz]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I'm not sure if this is an unpopular opinion or not, but I hate how the monsters seem to have become easier to kill over the years.  In season 1, vampires were strong and formidable enemies. Now, Sam or Dean can take out a nest single-handedly and any hunter who can't is considered below par.  Also, I think it's stupid that you can knock out a demon by punching him.  Really? 

This bothers me too, but I've decided to fanwank that experience + trips to Heaven and Hell + touched/favored by God has given the Winchesters a unique set of superhero capabilities that puts them on par with an angel or demon (minus telekinesis and teleporting, etc).

[sarthaz]

14 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Yes! I loved Dean in those episodes. I thought that the Stynes had to the potential to be interesting recurring villains; since they had such a long legacy I thought that they would be a little harder to kill. As for Crowley and Castiel I like both characters but as I've stated before on this thread if they were no longer around it wouldn't impact my enjoyment of the show. Crowley hasn't been a true adversary for seasons and there's only so much more Angel strife that they can write about. At the end of the day I watch for the brothers.

Yeah, the Stynes would have been a great season-long villain.  Season 10 is a lot like Season 8 where there's a long stretch of shitty episode while they figure out what the Hell they're doing.  For 8, it's basically the first 10 episodes with Benny and Amelia and Dog.  Once they ditch that garbage and Henry shows up and the trials begin, the season gets interesting.  For 10, it's Paper Moon through Paint it Black (ignoring isolated greats like Fan Fiction and Executioner's Song).  Then all of a sudden there's this Book of the Damned plot and the Stynes and Dean's a cold-blooded assassin, and the season finally stops sucking.  Season 10 could have been pretty cool if they'd brought the Stynes in 8 episodes sooner and explored that more instead of Cole and Kate and Wi-Fi ghosts and fucking "Piero".

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I'm not sure if this is an unpopular opinion or not, but I hate how the monsters seem to have become easier to kill over the years.  In season 1, vampires were strong and formidable enemies. Now, Sam or Dean can take out a nest single-handedly and any hunter who can't is considered below par.  Also, I think it's stupid that you can knock out a demon by punching him.  Really? 

Yeah, the stakes are pretty damn low these days. Lucifer being so easily subdued is a ridiculous and rather unfunny joke, too. Whatever.

[Myrelle]

The Trials were what sunk 8 into the deepest depths for me. The writing for the entire season was awful, but the second half was THE worst writing that I've EVER seen on this show and I was never closer to giving up on this show entirely than I was at the end of that season. At least in the first half there was PurgatoryDean, even if it meant having to FF through the Samelia stuff. The second half was almost completely unwatchable for me, in any way.

In 9 and 10, there were short stretches of  not-so-good episodes, but for me it was like a re-birth of decency after the long, dry desert of 5-8 that simply culminated in 8.

S9 brought me back to watching the show live, and more importantly to wanting/looking forward to watching live. I liked 10, too, for the most part and in a similar manner except for the finale which signaled a return, big-time, to the same old, same old.

And that was we got in 11, IMO-except for the premiere and the finale. Eleven reminded me so much of s6 and 7 which I saw as basically forgettable seasons with a decent enough episode thrown in amongst the mostly dross ones, and with very little clarity within the myth-arc writing.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Myrelle

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yeah, the stakes are pretty damn low these days. Lucifer being so easily subdued is a ridiculous and rather unfunny joke, too. Whatever.

Well, at least they explained that, and it was pretty clever.  Just powering down vamps and demons and pretty much every other monster so that Sam and Dean can just walk up to them, and kill them with no explanation as to why monsters are now so powerless bugs me. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

The Trials were what sunk 8 into the deepest depths for me. The writing for the entire season was awful, but the second half was THE worst writing that I've EVER seen on this show

Until recently I would have wholeheartedly agreed but IMO this Season gives it a run for its money.

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

Until recently I would have wholeheartedly agreed but IMO this Season gives it a run for its money.

These last three, for sure-and at least.

[sarthaz]

29 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

At least in the first half there was PurgatoryDean, even if it meant having to FF through the Samelia stuff. 

UO: Season 8 would have been best if it were entirely about Dean in Purgatory.  Maybe let Sam be in a coma.

[DittyDotDot]

31 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, at least they explained that, and it was pretty clever. 

Except I can't really watch S4 or S5 anymore without thinking "What's the big deal?" Apparently it was all much ado about nothing?  but, hey, Crowley got his groove back, so...

36 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Just powering down vamps and demons and pretty much every other monster so that Sam and Dean can just walk up to them, and kill them with no explanation as to why monsters are now so powerless bugs me.

I never really thought vampires on this show were all that formidable myself, but I do agree with you about demons. I was just commenting on the stakes, in general, being really low as of late. I mean, if the worst thing ever is to be locked in the lamest black site known to man for six weeks... .

[Myrelle]

Quote

UO: Season 8 would have been best if it were entirely about Dean in Purgatory.  Maybe let Sam be in a coma.

I get that they have to write for Sam(JP was hired on as the star after all), but the intense OTT pimping of the character-no matter what storyline he has or is given-is just a such a turn-off for me. That and the teflon-coated aspect of the writing of the character within the brothers' relationship has made me basically turn to Dean as this show's only saving grace at this point-or more specifically JA has become it's only saving grace for me. I like Crowley/MS and even Cas(although I'm not a big fan of  MC's), and even Rowena has grown on me, but none of them alone would keep me tuning in to this show-and especially as it's being written now.

If these writers could just write for the two leads at the same time,(because while JP was hired on as the star, it's obvious that they knew right away that JA should have gotten the same billing, IMO) as if they were indeed both leads at the same time, there would so many fewere complaints, IMO. But they obviously simply cannot do this-and whether it's because they don't want to or they're just not skilled or talented enough is kind of a moot point because it just feels like it's never going to happen and so the bitterness and UO threads just multiply here and twitter and tumblr explode with every new sl-which is likely ALL that they care about at this point, tbh, and again IMO.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Myrelle

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I get that they have to write for Sam(JP was hired on as the star after all),

I get confused between the two, and I'm not entirely sure most of the time what is appropriate where, but shouldn't this be in the new Bitch vs. Jerk thread?

Edited March 10, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
I think 'think" is not "this"

[goldy]

My unpopular opinions;

• I like Sam and Dean equally and I don't think the show will be as good if one of them won't be in it anymore. Also, I am just as happy to watch a big Dean episode with little to no screen time for Sam as I am happy to watch a Sam centric episode with just as little screen time for Dean. 
• I don't care which brother actually kill the monster of the week or which is portrayed to be the toughest in any each episode. As long as the monster is getting killed and Sam and Dean are having a nice good talk at the end of the episode, I'm good.
• I think Sam and Dean are probably better and braver than most humans, but they're still humans and therefore are flawed which is why I don't get too upset if they make mistakes or treat each other badly at times.
• While I am disappointed in Mary's action in the last few episodes I still love her and think the character has a lot of potential and I hope this season won't end with her getting killed. In fact, I wish she'll become a series regular next season insted of Crowley who is incredibly boring to me. 
• I think the Supernatural fandom is amazing but I hate the fact that it has so much discontent for so many of the female characters that were/are part of this show. I, for one, loved; Charlie, Claire, Bela and Jo. As well as fan favorites; Jody and Donna. 
• I would love for Sam and Dean to have a love interest. Especially Dean, as it been so long since he had any. I realize that with the nature of the show, Sam and Dean can't really have a long term girlfriend but it would be so adorable and nice to see THAT side of them and I think it can be done even if its just gonna be for an episode or two, maybe with a female hunter.
   

[Myrelle]

Quote

I get confused between the two, and I'm not entirely sure most of the time what is appropriate where, but shouldn't this be in the new Bitch vs. Jerk thread?

Quote

 

I'm not sure myself but I left it here because I didn't mean for it to be a Sam vs Dean comment/response to the quote, but more of a bitter criticism of the on-going writing problems of the Sam character(IMO) and of the writing, in general, for the two leads of the show.

I can move it if the mods deem that it should be moved, but I'm on my way out now and won't be back until tonight. No disrespect to this thread intended and I'm fine with further replies to this being taken over there.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Myrelle

[Diane]

2 hours ago, goldy said:

My unpopular opinions;

• I like Sam and Dean equally and I don't think the show will be as good if one of them won't be in it anymore. Also, I am just as happy to watch a big Dean episode with little to no screen time for Sam as I am happy to watch a Sam centric episode with just as little screen time for Dean. 
• I don't care which brother actually kill the monster of the week or which is portrayed to be the toughest in any each episode. As long as the monster is getting killed and Sam and Dean are having a nice good talk at the end of the episode, I'm good.
• I think Sam and Dean are probably better and braver than most humans, but they're still humans and therefore are flawed which is why I don't get too upset if they make mistakes or treat each other badly at times.
• While I am disappointed in Mary's action in the last few episodes I still love her and think the character has a lot of potential and I hope this season won't end with her getting killed. In fact, I wish she'll become a series regular next season insted of Crowley who is incredibly boring to me. 
• I think the Supernatural fandom is amazing but I hate the fact that it has so much discontent for so many of the female characters that were/are part of this show. I, for one, loved; Charlie, Claire, Bela and Jo. As well as fan favorites; Jody and Donna. 
• I would love for Sam and Dean to have a love interest. Especially Dean, as it been so long since he had any. I realize that with the nature of the show, Sam and Dean can't really have a long term girlfriend but it would be so adorable and nice to see THAT side of them and I think it can be done even if its just gonna be for an episode or two, maybe with a female hunter.
   

I don't think most of this is unpopular, we just are not as vocal.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Diane
because I can't type

[auntvi]

29 minutes ago, Diane said:

I don't think most of this is unpopular, we just are not a vocal.

Yes, thank you!

[goldy]

56 minutes ago, Diane said:

I don't think most of this is unpopular, we just are not a vocal.

I'm pretty new to the fandom (this is the first season I watch live) so my opinion on what people think about the show and the characters in it is based mostly on what I see around the message boards and twitter/tumblr/facebook. And what I see is a lot of "Dean only" and "Sam only" fans that wish the show will center around their favorite and therefor engage, in what I consider, pettiness. I see a lot of talk about who should get more screen time, about which brother get to kill what, about how the writers are disrespectful of Sam or Dean because they made them say or react in a way that the fans don't like or think is OOC. And while I respect everyone's opinion, I do feel like that on the social media forums that I've mention, my opinions, are pretty unpopular.

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, goldy said:

I'm pretty new to the fandom (this is the first season I watch live) so my opinion on what people think about the show and the characters in it is based mostly on what I see around the message boards and twitter/tumblr/facebook. And what I see is a lot of "Dean only" and "Sam only" fans that wish the show will center around their favorite and therefor engage, in what I consider, pettiness. I see a lot of talk about who should get more screen time, about which brother get to kill what, about how the writers are disrespectful of Sam or Dean because they made them say or react in a way that the fans don't like or think is OOC. And while I respect everyone's opinion, I do feel like that on the social media forums that I've mention, my opinions, are pretty unpopular.

Although, I have been watching longer, but I try to stay away from most social media as much as I can, this has been mostly my experience too. However, I think @Diane is probably right in there is more balance to the fandom than it appears, it's just that the factions are more vociferous than the middle-of-the-ground viewers. 

But, then again, I tend to feel there is generally more balance to the universe than what it appears on the surface.

[sarthaz]

On 3/10/2017 at 1:56 PM, goldy said:

• I think the Supernatural fandom is amazing but I hate the fact that it has so much discontent for so many of the female characters that were/are part of this show. I, for one, loved; Charlie, Claire, Bela and Jo. As well as fan favorites; Jody and Donna. 
   

I like Charlie -- although my UO is that I don't think Felicia Day is a good actress, so I'm not a Charlie "fan".  Like Bela too, but didn't like her backstory and hated that it was rushed through because of the writer's strike.  Definitely like Jo.  Claire?  Eh.  They went way over the top with the whole rebellious teen thing, so I tired of her quickly.  Totally love Jody and Donna and Meg and Meg 2 and Tessa (pre-retcon) and like Ellen and Lisa and Linda and Becky and Gwen and Pamela and Sarah.  Disliked Rowena when she was introduced but have come to adore her.  Honestly, there are very few female characters I would consider myself discontented with.  The angels, because angels are boring AF, Eve kinda sucked (terrible casting IMO), and no one likes Lady GoFuckHerself.  I'm probably forgetting a ton of people, but I mostly like the female characters.

[bearcatfan]

On 3/10/2017 at 3:57 PM, Diane said:

• I like Sam and Dean equally and I don't think the show will be as good if one of them won't be in it anymore. Also, I am just as happy to watch a big Dean episode with little to no screen time for Sam as I am happy to watch a Sam centric episode with just as little screen time for Dean. 
• I don't care which brother actually kill the monster of the week or which is portrayed to be the toughest in any each episode. As long as the monster is getting killed and Sam and Dean are having a nice good talk at the end of the episode, I'm good.
• I think Sam and Dean are probably better and braver than most humans, but they're still humans and therefore are flawed which is why I don't get too upset if they make mistakes or treat each other badly at times.

Yes!!!! I'm so tired of the bickering! I have a slight preference for Sam but love them both. I spend more time "defending" Sam because he seems to have fewer champions and I tend to play devil's advocate in all aspects of life (which put me in an interesting position during the last election cycle). The concept that someone would want one of them in a coma for an entire season is unfathomable to me. I liked Baby last year despite the fact that Sam disappeared for the a substantial part of the episode. I know the fact that Sam wasn't in Baby as much is why some people like it, which makes me sad. I didn't notice that he was missing upon the first viewing just like I didn't notice that Dean was missing during American Nightmare.

 

On 3/10/2017 at 3:57 PM, Diane said:

• I think the Supernatural fandom is amazing but I hate the fact that it has so much discontent for so many of the female characters that were/are part of this show. I, for one, loved; Charlie, Claire, Bela and Jo. As well as fan favorites; Jody and Donna. 
• I would love for Sam and Dean to have a love interest. Especially Dean, as it been so long since he had any. I realize that with the nature of the show, Sam and Dean can't really have a long term girlfriend but it would be so adorable and nice to see THAT side of them and I think it can be done even if its just gonna be for an episode or two, maybe with a female hunter.

The only female characters I really haven't liked were Amelia, because I thought she was mean, and Toni.

I wouldn't mind if either or both to have a romantic relationship. It couldn't take up much time because that's not what the show is about, but a few scenes occasionally peppered throughout could be fun. Especially if it meant more shirtless scenes. The only romantic relationship I hated was Amelia for reasons already stated.

Edited March 15, 2017 by bearcatfan
Quote shouldn't be in the middle of a word

[7kstar]

On 3/10/2017 at 4:08 PM, DittyDotDot said:

Although, I have been watching longer, but I try to stay away from most social media as much as I can, this has been mostly my experience too. However, I think @Diane is probably right in there is more balance to the fandom than it appears, it's just that the factions are more vociferous than the middle-of-the-ground viewers. 

One problem with all social media is that one person posts an opinion and a few agree and suddenly they have way more power than they really do.  The fan based is mixed.  Those that are in the middle ignore the ones that complain about things they just don't give a flip about. 

Although I do like many of the female characters, there have been a few that failed and I blame the writing more than the acting.  Some were just given bad directions.  When an actor makes the character more interesting as they get more material then it becomes clear it is either bad writing or bad directing.  For this show I've seen more bad writing.  Kim Manners is/was a great director but even sometimes he couldn't make it work. 

I think if you want to be a long time fan of this show, you have to over look some of the serious flaws.  I personally never saw the blame for Sam going off to college.  I did see a brother wishing that things didn't have to change and a brother being angry for someone not answering their phone, but that is normal family stuff. What I got tired of was the writers not allowing the brothers to grow and move on past it.  Hence it became a complaint about bad writing.  Enough said as this is one of those topics that seems to start a merry go round conversation with no end in sight. 

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, bearcatfan said:

Yes!!!! I'm so tired of the bickering! I have a slight preference for Sam but love them both. I spend more time "defending" Sam because he seems to have fewer champions and I tend to play devil's advocate in all aspects of life (which put me in an interesting position during the last election cycle). The concept that someone would want one of them in a coma for an entire season is unfathomable to me. I liked Baby last year despite the fact that Sam disappeared for the a substantial part of the episode. I know the fact that Sam wasn't in Baby as much is why some people like it, which makes me sad. I didn't notice that he was missing upon the first viewing just like I didn't notice that Dean was missing during American Nightmare.

I hate the bickering, because there's no real point to it, since it's based on perception and preferences, and there's no way to argue (or change someone's mind.)  

On 3/10/2017 at 11:56 AM, goldy said:

• I don't care which brother actually kill the monster of the week or which is portrayed to be the toughest in any each episode. As long as the monster is getting killed and Sam and Dean are having a nice good talk at the end of the episode, I'm good.

I don't mind the story focusing on one brother or the other (or who gets the kill), as long as it makes sense in the context of the story and the characters.  I get angry when it becomes noticeable and takes me out of the story, and especially if it makes a character act OOC.  So, I didn't mind Sam being offstage a lot in Baby, because it made sense that Dean stayed with the car more.  I didn't mind Sam being more involved in American Nightmare than Dean, because of the way the story set it up: that he stayed with the family while Dean did research.  What I hated was the unexplained gap of time between when Sam called Dean saying he needed help and Dean actually showing up (after all the action was over) because that *didn't* make logical sense--neither for the story or for Dean's character.  

IMO, I don't think Sam has "fewer champions."  I think it depends on which sites (or threads) you read.  People can get pretty defensive about both brothers.  

On 3/10/2017 at 1:57 PM, Diane said:

I think the Supernatural fandom is amazing but I hate the fact that it has so much discontent for so many of the female characters that were/are part of this show. I, for one, loved; Charlie, Claire, Bela and Jo. As well as fan favorites; Jody and Donna. 

I get really annoyed at how many people complain about the women on the show, and for so many different reasons.  I think in general they do a good job, with strong, mostly well-written characters.  My main problem is if they become caricatures...so I liked Charlie in the beginning--she was an interesting, quirky character who had a particular role to play.  I loved the way she became a surrogate little sister to the boys, and the way they reacted to (and with) her.  And then I hated it when she became Supergirl, who could do literally anything.  I think I finally gave up on her in Book of the Damned when she called from a phone booth while being hunted by the Uber-baddies of all times, and stopped to explain how she'd been all over Europe and finally managed (entirely on her own because of her superior intelligence!) to track down the book that had been missing for a century, then had not only been shot but sewn up her own wound, and....you get the picture.  This from the girl who hyperventilated at the thought of flirting with a security guard?

I love Ellen and Jody, like Donna and Lisa, and don't mind Bela, Jo and Claire, though I think they've been pretty badly written most of the time.  Amelia had no redeeming qualities at all to me--boring, petty and unlikable in general.  ETA: Oh, and I hated Becky, too.  Just too OTT for me.  

About the female enemies:  Abaddon (and Rowena in the beginning) were a little *too* campy-evil to me, but Rowena has settled down nicely.  I go back and forth on Meg, because she's been through so many variations I'm not sure who she really is/was.  I liked some of her iterations but not all.  

The same goes with Mary for now.  I'm withholding judgment on her because I'm (pretty) sure there's going to be a Big Reveal that will explain whatever she's been doing/thinking, and I just hope it's not too late to redeem the character.  I want to like her, because I can understand (more or less) what she's supposedly going through, but she's certainly making it hard to be sympathetic.  

Edited March 16, 2017 by ahrtee

[bearcatfan]

23 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

IMO, I don't think Sam has "fewer champions."  I think it depends on which sites (or threads) you read.  People can get pretty defensive about both brothers.

I should have clarified that I mean this site. I think it use to be pretty even and I tended to keep out of it. I don't believe it's even anymore.

[Airmid]

The women have been kind of hit and miss with me. I disliked Jody during her first appearance, well not hated but sort of meh. Later appearances, loved her along with Donna.  

I liked the concept of Bela and I think it's a shame that the writers openly admitted later to sinking her as a character because TPTB wanted more women on the show. What a shame. I wished they had gone either all the way with her and made her a true foil with the brothers or humanized her much sooner with her backstory and why she was the way she was. As it was, she talked a good game but I never really felt she was a great at what she did or was really a match for them unless the brothers were hit with plot stupid.

I ended up really liking Jo and Ellen during their last episode in S5 together and liked Jo when she came back as the spirit to pass judgement on Dean later on. Claire, not really and Charlie I could take or leave. I didn't mind her episodes and liked LARP and the Real Girl but I wasn't overly enamored with her character.

Ruby...yeah no. I don't blame either actress, I just think it was a terrible part. The only time I liked Ruby was during Malleus Maleficarum to be honest. If I tolerated her in an episode I considered that a plus.

I<3 Meg. Even if she didn't make sense as to why she was so loyal and why the boys would work with her especially after Jo and Ellen not to mention all her other crimes I still liked her. Both her and Rowena I'd consider guilty pleasures. They're both ones where even if I really dislike an episode I can still get enjoyment out of watching them.

Lisa was a take it or leave it for me. I really wished they had developed more of why Dean would choose her and not say, Cassie. I can see if Cassie had a whole family (I don't think she was ever said to have one) but seeing as she knew the brothers and knew Dean from his youth and it was someone he really cared for (and it just wasn't a great bendy time together) it would have made more sense.

Amelia...just no. That whole storyline - just no. Even Sam looking majestic in his sepia dream flashbacks and awesome little V-neck couldn't save it for me.

I'd like to like Mary and I'm hoping by the end of the season I actually can.

2 hours ago, 7kstar said:

One problem with all social media is that one person posts an opinion and a few agree and suddenly they have way more power than they really do.  The fan based is mixed.  Those that are in the middle ignore the ones that complain about things they just don't give a flip about. 

Although I do like many of the female characters, there have been a few that failed and I blame the writing more than the acting.  Some were just given bad directions.  When an actor makes the character more interesting as they get more material then it becomes clear it is either bad writing or bad directing.  For this show I've seen more bad writing.  Kim Manners is/was a great director but even sometimes he couldn't make it work. 

I think if you want to be a long time fan of this show, you have to over look some of the serious flaws.  I personally never saw the blame for Sam going off to college.  I did see a brother wishing that things didn't have to change and a brother being angry for someone not answering their phone, but that is normal family stuff. What I got tired of was the writers not allowing the brothers to grow and move on past it.  Hence it became a complaint about bad writing.  Enough said as this is one of those topics that seems to start a merry go round conversation with no end in sight. 

I totally agree. I always found it interesting, especially in early seasons, when the writers etc complained that fans seemed to hate female characters. I wanted to wave my hands and go 'look at how you're writing them!'.

And for the whole college thing, ugh. I wish they could have dropped that sooner. I mean if they wanted to show Sam as rebellious there were other ways, not him trying to find some independence in a healthy way. Yeah, bitter about that.

[auntvi]

1 hour ago, Airmid said:

And for the whole college thing, ugh. I wish they could have dropped that sooner. I mean if they wanted to show Sam as rebellious there were other ways, not him trying to find some independence in a healthy way. Yeah, bitter about that.

That Sam was able to get into Stanford and get the scholarships was amazing. It was an incredible accomplishment considering what his life was like. I never saw it as a bad thing and I don't understand the accusations throughout the years that Sam betrayed Dean by getting himself away from John and the hunting life. I don't think that John ever really trusted Sam because of the demon blood, and Sam surely must have felt that hesitation from his father and knew he'd never be what his father wanted. Sam did what he had to do to protect himself.

[rue721]

I guess my bitterness/UO is that I don't think it was really that unbelievable or ridiculous that John reacted poorly to Sam leaving. When his wife died, John went underground into survivalist mode and became a roving monster-hunter. When his other son was dying, he sold his soul and traded his life to a demon in order to keep him alive. So in general, this is not a guy who deals well with loss, lol. I'm not surprised that he didn't handle Sam "abandoning" him with grace, either.

I don't think that it matters WHY Sam was leaving, just that he was leaving. That probably sent John into a tailspin -- that's what it sounds like to me whenever Dean refers to it. And I can see why dealing with John in a tailspin would be really hard on Dean, because that would have been hard on anybody. I can see why those would be really bad memories for him. So it doesn't bother me when he bitches a little about it.

I don't think that Sam *shouldn't* have gone to college. He had to make his own decisions. Going was probably the right choice. But y'know, his dad was kind of crazy -- so it's to be expected that John was going to react in an OTT and selfish way. I guess my UO is that I don't really mind if the show doesn't forget about that!

[trxr4kids]

2 hours ago, auntvi said:

That Sam was able to get into Stanford and get the scholarships was amazing. It was an incredible accomplishment considering what his life was like. I never saw it as a bad thing and I don't understand the accusations throughout the years that Sam betrayed Dean by getting himself away from John and the hunting life. I don't think that John ever really trusted Sam because of the demon blood, and Sam surely must have felt that hesitation from his father and knew he'd never be what his father wanted. Sam did what he had to do to protect himself.

 I can't imagine Sam's transcripts being consistent given the way they were raised, that's not saying he couldn't have gotten a full ride, just that it seems implausible to me given the circumstances.

I don't actually remember anybody on the show accusing Sam of betraying Dean by going to college, I thought that was just a John thing but I can see how I would have dismissed it from memory since it seems ridiculous and petty. If it happened in DSotM I can see Dean being pissy since that was the point of the whole episode IMO, to make Dean bitter and resentful and make Sam seem selfish and uncaring, makes me want to watch a clip of Dean stabbing Zachariah in the neck again.

I don't know if John knew about the demon blood or if he did when, but he was a contradictory bastard at best and Sam wanting to get away from him and his revenge quest wins Sam a gold star and the last of the Lucky Charms in my book. It's never been clear on the show IMO if Sam and Dean remained in contact. 

Bolded text from wiki:

DEAN puts his hands on SAM's shoulders, shakes once, and lets go.

SAM
What the hell are you doing here?

DEAN
Okay. All right. We gotta talk.

SAM
Uh, the phone?

DEAN
If I'd'a called, would you have picked up? 

That implies Sam may have ducked calls from Dean if, and it's a pretty big if, Dean called but not why or how often. IMO if he had wanted to cut off all contact he would've changed his number. 

-skip-

DEAN
So what are you gonna do? You're just gonna live some normal, apple pie life? Is that it?

SAM
No. Not normal. Safe.

DEAN
And that's why you ran away.

SAM
I was just going to college. It was Dad who said if I was gonna go I should stay gone. And that's what I'm doing.

That came across to me as a sincere question, not hostile or accusatory and the response didn't seem overly defensive, just explanatory. Granted I haven't watched that episode in years so my recollection could be off, not that it really matters since it's open to interpretation anyway.

-skip-

DEAN
You know, in almost two years I've never bothered you, never asked you for a thing.

SAM looks away and sighs, then looks back.

SAM
All right. I'll go. I'll help you find him.

What does that even mean really? Just because he hadn't bothered Sam or asked him for something doesn't mean they didn't talk at all IMO.

The bothered part of that brings to mind The Usual Suspects ( I think ) where Dean is bored and making random noises and such while Sam tries to research and makes me imagine Dean actually showed up to one or more of Sam's college classes until Sam was like stop it, Dean your bothering me and I'll tell on you! Just my headcannon since I have allegedly adult sons and my husband has a younger brother and I've seen the nonsense firsthand, my daughter and I have a look we share for just these moments.

Edited March 16, 2017 by trxr4kids
the forum ate part of my words again or I blanked out for a moment whichever

[companionenvy]

I don't think they were in touch during the Stanford years at all, which I'll buy as something that worked as part of the premise of the show, but which I would otherwise be side-eyeing. There is no way that Dean wouldn't try to contact or visit Sam for three plus years, and no way that Sam wouldn't cave and agree to talk to him if he did. I can see Sam being stubborn enough not to reach out himself, and maybe even ignoring a few calls, but I can't imagine him icing Dean out if he made a sincere effort. 

Then again, a Dean in regular contact with John may well have been somewhat less co-dependent on Sam than the Winchester we've come to know and love. Even as a child, he felt an overwhelming sense of responsibility for Sam, but I suppose it is possible that with John in his life, he was able to cope with check-ins from afar, especially given that he had his own feelings of hurt and anger (justified or not) to work through. 

[ILoveReading]

7 hours ago, companionenvy said:

There is no way that Dean wouldn't try to contact or visit Sam for three plus years, and no way that Sam wouldn't cave and agree to talk to him if he did. I can see Sam being stubborn enough not to reach out himself, and maybe even ignoring a few calls, but I can't imagine him icing Dean out if he made a sincere effort. 

 

I can see this if we go by what we know about pre-season Sam and Dean.  They didn't have the relationship they do now. 

From Sam's POV he wanted normal and that meant cutting off himself off from everyone and everything related to his old life.  When Dean was with Lisa we saw that Dean still salted things and kept weapons nearby.  Sam made a a clean break even to the point he wanted nothing to do with anything related to the Supernatural, even halloween.  He wanted normal, Dean showing up would only serve as a reminder that he wasn't.  Not wanting anything to do with his old life would have included Dean.

Plus, Sam is stubborn and if he felt that Dean sided with their father during the fight he might have also left with the impression Dean wanted nothing to do with him either.  Asylum and Skin showed that these two harboured a lot of resentment towards one another.  As we know Sam was not happy to see Dean when he showed up.  He didn't go back on the road to rebuild his relationship with Dean, it was too avenge Jessica.  His orginial plan was to return to school once that was done.  Time and circumstance allowed him to re-connect with Dean.  It was not a primary goal.

From, Dean's POV we've seen he had mixed feelings.  There was a part of him that was proud that Sam went his own way, but he had to be hurt too that Sam could just walk away from him.  Plus, Dean is stubborn too.  Add in Dean's abandonment issues and he may have felt he wouldn't be welcome and employed a 'reject him so he can't reject me' mindset.  We know that Dean was a good solider back then and when Sam left Dean may have doubled down on trying to be the perfect son and stayed away from Sam for fear John would reject him too.

 I think based on  their personality traits and sheer stubbornness make this perfectly in character for both.

FWIW, I do have a head canon.   In the original script Sam was only supposed to be about 20 and at college for 2 years.  But Kripke later changed this to Sam being a little older and in college for about 3 1/2 year.  But forgot to change the line in the script where Dean says "in two years, I never bothered you, never asked you for a thing."  So IMO, after John started ditching Dean, Dean decided to go see his brother since he didn't have to worry about playing the good son anymore.  Both Sam and Dean agreed to meet and for whatever reason you (general you) want to add it didn't go well and they sent their sperate ways until John went missing.

Edited March 16, 2017 by ILoveReading

[mertensia]

I have always thought Dean did call or visit until Sam said "enough!" Dean is not a good poster child for "look at the normal totally middle-class upbringing I totally had. Totally. I swear."

[SueB]

Here's an apparent unpopular opinion: I don't hold characters (OR PEOPLE) responsible for comments they said 12 years ago unless it's an attitude, that they have demonstrated, that still is something they haven't changed their mind on.

[Katy M]

18 minutes ago, mertensia said:

I have always thought Dean did call or visit until Sam said "enough!" Dean is not a good poster child for "look at the normal totally middle-class upbringing I totally had. Totally. I swear."

I don't buy that at all. If they just didn't contact each other, or even had some contact and it fell off, that could be put down to stubbornness, pride and hurt feelings.  Your scenario makes Sam the biggest jerk of all time.  Which I don't think we've seen evidence of.

[mertensia]

No, it makes him a man trying desperately to fit in. There is nothing inherently evil or wrong in that.

[Katy M]

10 minutes ago, mertensia said:

No, it makes him a man trying desperately to fit in. There is nothing inherently evil or wrong in that.

I wouldn't go so far as to say evil, but yes, if you want to fit in so badly that you discount others' feelings and piss all over a family member, that's wrong.  And Sam cares about other people, whatever his other flaws.  He wouldn't tell Dean to get lost so he could be popular.  Nor would he really need to.  He was already on scholarship.  The other kids wouldn't expect him to have rich, refined relatives.

[rue721]

51 minutes ago, mertensia said:

I have always thought Dean did call or visit until Sam said "enough!" Dean is not a good poster child for "look at the normal totally middle-class upbringing I totally had. Totally. I swear."

I don't agree.

I think Dean was busy dealing with John during that time. Also, I think that he had some resentment toward Sam for triggering that crisis. Not because of what Sam left *for,* but simply because he left, and his leaving was the catalyst for a rough period that Dean had to deal with alone. Like, he needed Sam at that time and Sam wasn't there. I don't think that he blames Sam for it anymore (it's not his fault that he triggered a bad patch) and maybe never blamed him really, but it couldn't have been good for their relationship in any case.

IMO Sam wasn't in contact because John told him to get out and not come back. He was waiting for an olive branch from John, but it didn't come. So he just kept moving forward. IMO there's nothing wrong with that. I don't see Sam as a social climber or someone who considered himself too good for his family or whatever. YMMV. I don't think he would have shut down contact to the point of telling Dean to STOP contacting him.

Also UO I don't think that Dean is that neurotic or weird or crazy or whatever. People talk about his psyche being a minefield, but I don't see it.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

22 hours ago, sarthaz said:

I like Charlie --

15 hours ago, ahrtee said:

so I liked Charlie in the beginning--she was an interesting, quirky character who had a particular role to play.  I loved the way she became a surrogate little sister to the boys, and the way they reacted to (and with) her.  And then I hated it when she became Supergirl, who could do literally anything.  I think I finally gave up on her in Book of the Damned when she called from a phone booth while being hunted by the Uber-baddies of all times, and stopped to explain how she'd been all over Europe and finally managed (entirely on her own because of her superior intelligence!) to track down the book that had been missing for a century, then had not only been shot but sewn up her own wound, and....you get the picture.  This from the girl who hyperventilated at the thought of flirting with a security guard?

 I liked Charlie in small doses - and there were some episodes where she didn't bother me at all.  The breaking point for me was when she completely rewired the pre-solid-state vacuum tube behemoth computer in the bunker basement with USB cables to a tablet and put it on 'the cloud' in a matter of hours.  [You can't see me, but I'm doing multiple eye-rolls as I wrote that.]

I either like, or don't mind too much, the other female characters except, as @bearcatfan noted: Amelia and Toni.  I was really sad to see Ellen, Jo, and Bella go.  I thought Bella could have been a very interesting character to keep around.

18 hours ago, bearcatfan said:

Yes!!!! I'm so tired of the bickering! I have a slight preference for Sam but love them both. I spend more time "defending" Sam because he seems to have fewer champions and I tend to play devil's advocate in all aspects of life (which put me in an interesting position during the last election cycle). The concept that someone would want one of them in a coma for an entire season is unfathomable to me. I liked Baby last year despite the fact that Sam disappeared for the a substantial part of the episode. I know the fact that Sam wasn't in Baby as much is why some people like it, which makes me sad. I didn't notice that he was missing upon the first viewing just like I didn't notice that Dean was missing during American Nightmare.

I wouldn't mind if either or both to have a romantic relationship. It couldn't take up much time because that's not what the show is about, but a few scenes occasionally peppered throughout could be fun. Especially if it meant more shirtless scenes. The only romantic relationship I hated was Amelia for reasons already stated.

Lol!  Me too on the Devi's Advocate thing.  

IA: Sam's absence didn't bother me in Baby, nor Dean's in American Nightmare.  The only reason I ever noticed in retrospect was because other people complained.  

Also agree about the romantic relationship thing.  I think it could be done in a way that wasn't intrusive to the regular storyline.  But not sure the writers could do that.  [I am all aboard for more shirtless scenes though!]

15 hours ago, bearcatfan said:

I should have clarified that I mean this site. I think it use to be pretty even and I tended to keep out of it. I don't believe it's even anymore.

I think for awhile it did get very lopsided recently on this site.  That's my impression anyway.  It seems to be settling out again, which is good.  Or I'm just ignoring it better.  :)

14 hours ago, Airmid said:

Even Sam looking majestic in his sepia dream flashbacks and awesome little V-neck couldn't save it for me.

I had to quote this, just to see it again. :)  I really like the way you put this.  And so true!  Lol!

Also, good point about Cassie.  (I guess maybe the actress wasn't available?)  But I think it would have been a much better story, and we would have seen more of a struggle for him to leave again, if Dean had gone to Cassie.

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

1. From Sam's POV he wanted normal and that meant cutting off himself off from everyone and everything related to his old life.  When Dean was with Lisa we saw that Dean still salted things and kept weapons nearby.  Sam made a a clean break even to the point he wanted nothing to do with anything related to the Supernatural, even halloween.  He wanted normal, Dean showing up would only serve as a reminder that he wasn't.  Not wanting anything to do with his old life would have included Dean.

2. Plus, Sam is stubborn and if he felt that Dean sided with their father during the fight he might have also left with the impression Dean wanted nothing to do with him either.  Asylum and Skin showed that these two harboured a lot of resentment towards one another.  As we know Sam was not happy to see Dean when he showed up.  He didn't go back on the road to rebuild his relationship with Dean, it was too avenge Jessica.  His orginial plan was to return to school once that was done.  Time and circumstance allowed him to re-connect with Dean.  It was not a primary goal.

(Added numbers: mine)

1. Maybe you missed the part where Sam said, "not normal.  Safe."  That is very telling right there.  And might even explain some of Sam's recent motivations in discussions about whether or not Sam still wants 'A Normal Life.'  From the very beginning we were told that Sam didn't want a Normal Life.  He only wanted a Safe life.  That can be two very different things.

Also, John was the one who told him if he was going to go, then stay gone.  I don't believe that Sam was the one who willingly cut all ties to his old life.  As (sorry, I can't remember who said it!) said, Sam was probably waiting for the olive branch from John which never came.  In fact, if we go back to the pilot, Jess knew Sam had a brother named Dean, so he obviously talked about Dean.  How is that cutting himself off from everyone in his old life?

I think Sam and Dean did have other contact during the college years.  I can't remember the episode, but there was one where Dean was teasing Sam about getting high, and Sam said, it was probably oregano.  I don't remember why I thought so, but I figured incident happened while Sam was at college.

2. As for Sam not being happy to see Dean - aw come on...Dean broke into his apartment in the middle of the night.  He didn't knock or ring the doorbell. Even Sam says he 'scared the crap out of' him.  Not the best way to ensure a warm, happy welcome, is it?  After the tussle, Sam didn't seem too upset, imo, until Dean brought up John.  He wasn't happy that Dean expected him to drop everything and go look for John.  That's not the same as being happy to see Dean himself.  

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Here's an apparent unpopular opinion: I don't hold characters (OR PEOPLE) responsible for comments they said 12 years ago unless it's an attitude, that they have demonstrated, that still is something they haven't changed their mind on.

But that doesn't stop me from giving them grief about from time to time!  I mean, what's a little sister/youngest daughter for anyway, amiright?  ;)

[Katy M]

16 hours ago, Airmid said:

Lisa was a take it or leave it for me. I really wished they had developed more of why Dean would choose her and not say, Cassie. I can see if Cassie had a whole family (I don't think she was ever said to have one) but seeing as she knew the brothers and knew Dean from his youth and it was someone he really cared for (and it just wasn't a great bendy time together) it would have made more sense.

That bugged me, too, for exactly those reasons.  But, Cassie didn't have a kid, and in season 3, the oldest of a kid Cassie could have would be 2.  Not even Supernatural can abduct a bunch of two year olds and stick them in cages.  And, I always figured end of SEason 5, Dean was really going to Lisa for Ben, not Lisa.  But that's just my view. 

But, yeah, I was fine with Lisa herself, it was just her relationship with Dean that didn't quite ring true for me.  The only female character I hated was Bela.  Charlie got on my nerves, Slumber Party on.  Yeah, we get it .  You're awesome.  As far as Toni goes, she's pure evil, but I love the actress and she's more in a "love to hate" category than hate.

And extremely unpopular opinion, I more or less liked Amelia until Torn and Frayed.  Nothing can fix adultery for me.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Katy M

[catrox14]

49 minutes ago, Katy M said:

d, I always figured end of SEason 5, Dean was really going to Lisa for Ben, not Lisa.  But that's just my view. 

Dean went to Lisa and Ben for Sam. That's it. He kept a promise that Sam extracted from him to go find Lisa and have an apple pie life. 

Quote

SAM: This thing goes our way and I...Triple Lindy into that box... y-you know I'm not coming back.

DEAN: Yeah, I'm aware.

SAM: So you got to promise me something.

DEAN: Okay. Yeah. Anything.

SAM: You got to promise not to try to bring me back.

DEAN: What? No, I didn't sign up for that.

SAM: Dean --

DEAN: Your Hell is gonna make my tour look like Graceland. You want me just to sit by and do nothing?

SAM: Once the Cage is shut, you can't go poking at it, Dean. It's too risky.

DEAN: No, no, no, no, no. As if I'm just gonna let you rot in there.

SAM: Yeah, you are. You don't have a choice.

DEAN: You can't ask me to do this.

SAM: I'm sorry, Dean. You have to.

DEAN: So then what am I supposed to do?

SAM: You go find Lisa. You pray to god she's dumb enough to take you in, and you – you have barbecues and go to football games. You go live some normal, apple-pie life, Dean. Promise me.

and then later....Chuck confirms.

Quote

CHUCK (VOICEOVER): This is the last Dean and Bobby will see of each other for a very long time. [DEAN and BOBBY hug before DEAN drives away.] And, for the record, at this point next week, Bobby will be hunting a rugaru outside of Dayton. But not Dean. Dean didn't want Cas to save him. Every part of him, every fiber he's got, wants to die, or find a way to bring Sam back. But he isn't gonna do either. Because he made a promise.

 

HOLY CRAP. I just had a revelation. I'm not even being sarcastic.

I think I totally get what Carver did in s8 with Sam. Sam wanted Dean to live the apple pie life he couldn't in s5...and in s8, Sam had the chance to do it, he did. Wow, it makes complete sense to me now. That's why Carver had the "agreement". 

Well, I am no longer on the Sam was OOC train, I've been riding for like years. Holy shit, this is a relief. IMO there was no mental breakdown from Sam.  He wanted an apple pie life and he sought to find. LORDY I GET IT!!!  Dang...

[Res]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

That bugged me, too, for exactly those reasons.  But, Cassie didn't have a kid, and in season 3, the oldest of a kid Cassie could have would be 2.  Not even Supernatural can abduct a bunch of two year olds and stick them in cages.  And, I always figured end of SEason 5, Dean was really going to Lisa for Ben, not Lisa.  But that's just my view. 

But, yeah, I was fine with Lisa herself, it was just her relationship with Dean that didn't quite ring true for me. 

IMO, Dean didn't go with Cassie because Cassie firmly ended any possibilities at the end of "Route 666" when Dean tried to start something up with her again. From then on, she was just part of his past that he wouldn't revisit so she never came up as a possibility for the end of S5 and I didn't blame him since that would have be the second time she shut the door on their relationship. That said, I actually liked how they interacted in the episode but wouldn't have wanted them to go that route again after that.

Lisa I liked just fine in S3 and S5 but hated what they did with her in S6. I'm one of the ones that hated that whole "domestic Dean" storyline, much like the soulless Sam storyline. I agree with Catrox, though, that Dean only went with Lisa because of the death bed promise to Sam.

[Res]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean went to Lisa and Ben for Sam. That's it. He kept a promise that Sam extracted from him to go find Lisa and have an apple pie life. 

and then later....Chuck confirms.

 

HOLY CRAP. I just had a revelation. I'm not even being sarcastic.

I think I totally get what Carver did in s8 with Sam. Sam wanted Dean to live the apple pie life he couldn't in s5...and in s8, Sam had the chance to do it, he did. Wow, it makes complete sense to me now. That's why Carver had the "agreement". 

Well, I am no longer on the Sam was OOC train, I've been riding for like years. Holy shit, this is a relief. IMO there was no mental breakdown from Sam.  He wanted an apple pie life and he sought to find. LORDY I GET IT!!!  Dang...

My UO is that I never saw the beginning of S8 as OCC for Sam. I was just amazed that TPTB actually went there, much like Demon Dean. After all, there are several times throughout the series where Sam leaves for whatever reason because he feels very justified in doing it. All the way back in S1 with "Scarecrow" he was fine with leaving for his own priorities. That being said, he does come back, especially if someone (Dean) is in trouble, but if he doesn't feel the need to come back for someone specific, (Jess, Dean, John, etc.) he is fine allowing others to do the hunting as he did when he was at Stanford and living with Amelia. That's one of the reasons that I don't buy that he will ever be 100% committed to hunting (which is fine for him, it's his choice). I know he says it and we are supposed to believe him but I'm pretty sure that Mary's talk about getting the monsters under control with the BMoL so that they could have "normal/safe" lives played into his "I'm in" because that's totally in character and something that he's wanted all his life. 

[MysteryGuest]

I guess my UO is that I really liked Dean with Lisa and Ben.  I'd have been happy if they'd found a way to make that work.  I hated the memory wipe, because that was just chalk full of logistic holes. 

I never really got the Cassie thing.  But I guess we each react to actresses differently.

I'm not sure I can buy your theory, Catrox.  Even though Dean went to Lisa, he claimed he never stopped looking for Sam.  That's one of the main reasons he was so pissed that Bobby kept the fact that Sam was alive from him.  Sam never even attempted to find Dean, he just walked away and didn't look back.  Still big time OOC to me.

[Bessie]

27 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm not sure I can buy your theory, Catrox.  Even though Dean went to Lisa, he claimed he never stopped looking for Sam.

That's exactly what jumped out to me in that quoted dialogue. Chuck claims that Dean never broke those promises, but Dean says he did look for Sam. And I'm inclined to believe him. I also think he stayed with Lisa because, on some level, he wanted that life. The promise played a part, pointed him in that direction, but I don't think it was the primary driver in him staying there for a year with no intention of leaving until Sam showed up. 

[companionenvy]

I also think there's plenty of evidence that Dean did care for Lisa -- or at least, the idea of Lisa -- quite apart from Sam's promise. Whatever Dean claimed in The Kids are Alright, I don't think he was going to Lisa's just to relive particularly good sexcapades one last time -- it is very IC that Dean would claim that as the reason, but we know he isn't that shallow. After meeting Ben, there was clearly a sense of what might have been, to the extent that he's dreaming about picnics with Lisa before picking up Ben from school in Dream a Little Dream of Me. He makes a point of going to see her before going off to say "yes" to Michael.

So, while I agree that Dean wouldn't have gone to Lisa's after Swan Song if he hadn't made a promise to Sam, I think Sam exacted that promise because he correctly sensed that it was something Dean desired on some level. It wasn't like Sam was creating some fantasy life for him out of whole-cloth. He was telling him to take the healthy option, rather than losing himself in self-destructive obsession. 

[ahrtee]

24 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

He was telling him to take the healthy option, rather than losing himself in self-destructive obsession. 

Ah, but Dean is multi-talented.  He can do *both* simultaneously.