Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Ah yes, I remembered that scene wrongly, but my point remains that his decision to put Sam before the world was a selfish and unheroic one. 

I get your point overall but in regards to this scene IMO I don't think that Dean was being selfish. If I had to choose between saving the world and beheading one of my brothers with a scythe for the greater good I wouldn't hesitate to make the selfish decision. Frankly I was confused as to why that was a condition for him helping Dean in the first place.

[Wayward Son]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I get your point overall but in regards to this scene IMO I don't think that Dean was being selfish. If I had to choose between saving the world and beheading one of my brothers with a scythe for the greater good I wouldn't hesitate to make the selfish decision. Frankly I was confused as to why that was a condition for him helping Dean in the first place.

If I remember correctly, which I mightn't considering my earlier mistake, I think Death feared Sam would undo the deal. He was confident that for as long as Sam was alive he would seek a way to free Dean from isolation and from the mark of cain. He wouldn't be capable of respecting the deal and leaving things be. Death was right of course. His mistake was underestimating how quickly Sam had succeeded in finding a way to free Dean.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Wayward Son

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

If I remember correctly, which I mightn't considering my earlier mistake, I think Death feared Sam would undo the deal. He was confident that for as long as Sam was alive he would seek a way to free Dean from isolation. He wouldn't be capable of respecting the deal and leaving things be.

 

The thing with that scene is also Dean had no clue there was a spell to release to remove the mark underway.  Killing death had nothing to do with releasing the darkness.  If Sam hadn't used the book of the damned the Killing death wouldn't have changed anything.  It would just be Dean with the Mark.  Cas told him he could go a thousand years before he scummed.   So killing death didn't endanger the world.  Sam removing the Mark did. 

Killing death was just a dead reaper.  It had absolutely no consequences whatsoever. 

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

If I remember correctly, which I mightn't considering my earlier mistake, I think Death feared Sam would undo the deal. He was confident that for as long as Sam was alive he would seek a way to free Dean from isolation and from the mark of cain. He wouldn't be capable of respecting the deal and leaving things be. Death was right of course. His mistake was underestimating how quickly Sam had succeeded in finding a way to free Dean.

Oh, that was the reason. I remember him stating something about how Sam wouldn't stop looking for him but I didn't understand why he had to die. Death claimed to be more or as powerful as God so I'm not sure who would have been able to undo a deal made with Death. Even though they found the spell to undo the Mark if Dean was in isolation it wouldn't have made any difference.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Oh, that was the reason. I remember him stating something about how Sam wouldn't stop looking for him but I didn't understand why he had to die. Death claimed to be more or as powerful as God so I'm not sure who would have been able to undo a deal made with Death. Even though they found the spell to undo the Mark if Dean was in isolation it wouldn't have made any difference.

I think it's supposed to be akin to God testing Abraham in the Bible by asking him to sacrifice his son. It was a test for Death to see if Dean was really and truly willing to make the ultimate sacrifice. Dean doesn't think his own life is worth much, so him sacrificing himself doesn't really prove much. But to be willing to sacrifice someone else's--especially Sam's--is a true sacrifice. 

Plus, I think Death was fucking with Dean a little. Dean's been a bit of a thorn in his backside for a while and this was a perfect opportunity to twist the knife a little.

[Mick Lady]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think they are Big Damn Heroes with a side of anti-hero.

I agree. They're human, and complicated. If they were just straight up heroes, they'd be boring. In my opinion, the show is much more interesting because nothing is black and white. The guys make hard choices, and they're not always right, but they always have compelling reasons for their choices.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Plus, I think Death was fucking with Dean a little. Dean's been a bit of a thorn in his backside for a while and this was a perfect opportunity to twist the knife a little.

Yes, that makes sense considering his comment at being burned by them before.

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Dean doesn't think his own life is worth much, so him sacrificing himself doesn't really prove much. But to be willing to sacrifice someone else's--especially Sam's--is a true sacrifice. 

I can understand this when you factor in how Dean puts Sam above everything else.

3 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

I agree. They're human, and complicated. If they were just straight up heroes, they'd be boring. In my opinion, the show is much more interesting because nothing is black and white. The guys make hard choices, and they're not always right, but they always have compelling reasons for their choices.

Truly! Kind of how Captain America is a selfless hero but he's pretty damn boring to me while Iron Man is a hero who's unashamedly selfish but much more intriguing :)

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Killing death was just a dead reaper.  It had absolutely no consequences whatsoever. 

I wonder if that will ever come back to bite them. It seems that they've moved on the the consequences of them killing Billie and forfeiting their deal when killing Death should have been more of a worry.

[Mick Lady]

14 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I wonder if that will ever come back to bite them. It seems that they've moved on the the consequences of them killing Billie and forfeiting their deal when killing Death should have been more of a worry.

I agree. I don't think we know yet the consequence of killing Death, or Billie. I can see both killings coming back to bite them in the ass.

Personally, I'd worry about Death more. But I don't believe he's truly dead.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

I agree. I don't think we know yet the consequence of killing Death, or Billie. I can see both killings coming back to bite them in the ass.

Personally, I'd worry about Death more. But I don't believe he's truly dead.

I hope that Death pops up again this season instead of just a new reaper to replace Billie.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Mick Lady said:

I agree. I don't think we know yet the consequence of killing Death, or Billie. I can see both killings coming back to bite them in the ass.

Personally, I'd worry about Death more. But I don't believe he's truly dead.

I hope they bring back death and there are consequences for Dean.  I was so disappointed last year when there were none. 

[ahrtee]

Maybe Billie was Death in a different form (I imagine he can take whatever form he wants...) and he was testing to see if they'd learned their lesson...and guess what?  They (or a Winchester-surrogate anyway) killed him again!  

[ILoveReading]

Just now, ahrtee said:

Maybe Billie was Death in a different form (I imagine he can take whatever form he wants...) and he was testing to see if they'd learned their lesson...and guess what?  They (or a Winchester-surrogate anyway) killed him again!  

I like this. 

I remember reading tweets from a con goer that Julian teased at a con that death might be back (no I don't remember which one).  But I also don't know if he giving hinting or it was just a typical, "It's supernatural, anyone can come back' response TPTB like to give.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I would say probably overall anti-heroes would be the way I'd class the Winchesters. I'm not sure if you've ever seen the Buffyverse, but of it's two leads I'd class Buffy as a hero and Angel as an anti-hero. The Winchesters in my eyes are more similar to him than her hence anti-heroes. 

Very steeped in the Angel verse (my 3rd favorite show in the history of ever). I would agree that Angel is definitely an anti-hero because he was a vampire that sought to do good after murdering countless humans over 200 years

Although...he did get cursed with a soul...so is he really an anti-hero or  is he more of a Reluctant hero?

Edited March 5, 2017 by catrox14

[Mick Lady]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Very steeped in the Angel verse (my 3rd favorite show in the history of ever). I would agree that Angel is definitely an anti-hero because he was a vampire that sought to do good after murdering countless humans over 200 years

Although...he did get cursed with a soul...so is he really an anti-hero or  is he more of a Reluctant hero?

I gotta ask! What are the first two?

I can guess one...

[catrox14]

38 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

I gotta ask! What are the first two?

I can guess one...

BSG, SPN with a side of Breaking Bad/The Wire.

[Mick Lady]

I guessed BSG, and of course SPN. Glad you love BB (Mick's second fav) too! Haven't seen The Wire yet, but have it in our list!

Sorry for the thread drift guys!

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

I guessed BSG, and of course SPN. Glad you love BB (Mick's second fav) too! Haven't seen The Wire yet, but have it in our list!

Sorry for the thread drift guys!

My Top 10

SPN
BSG
Angel
BB
The Wire
Arrow(s1 through s3.15. It's testing me sorely right now)
Sleepy Hollow (s1 and part of s2.  Fuck that show now LOL)
LOST
XFiles

Friends (shut up)
 

[Mick Lady]

We have similar tastes! You and Mick however, would get on like a house on fire!!

I love Bate's Motel, he can take it or leave it. I'd hate to be in the same room while you two discuss Sleepy Hollow!

 

Back to our regular programing...

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I like this. 

I remember reading tweets from a con goer that Julian teased at a con that death might be back (no I don't remember which one).  But I also don't know if he giving hinting or it was just a typical, "It's supernatural, anyone can come back' response TPTB like to give.

I would love to have Death back! How the hell can anyone "Kill" Death? I don't care what weapon they use, some things have to be absolute, even in this show!

[Wayward Son]

Although I wouldn't go as far as the author (I do still believe the brothers are far better than the monsters they hunt) this article is overall a good examination of how little regard for human life the brothers have developed the years. This growing disregard is also an example of why I see them as too dark to be 'heroes' and closer to the more morally ambigious anti-heroes. 

Quote

BLOG Supernatural: Who Are The Real Monsters?

Supernatural returned to UK screens last week and the opening two episode of season eight reminded me of a niggle I’ve been having with the show.

My issue is killing demons. Or rather killing the innocent bodies they possess. The fate of the meat suits, as the show refers to them.

I know there have been lots of TV shows and films with heroes that blur the lines of good and evil, anti-heroes and even bad guys we wouldn’t actually mind seeing win. For me Sam and Dean have always been a bit more of the straight cut hero types. But lately the Winchesters’ actions have bothered me. And it all comes down to how they’re treating the demons they come up against. Or, as I said, the bodies these demons happen to be borrowing.

Back when the show started it was more of a monster-of-the-week format. Over time, as the arc themes started to emerge, the main bad guys became demons more and more often. As the show evolved and the arc progressed more powerful supernatural creatures have been revealed and incorporated into the show’s mythology, but demons are still around.

When demons first showed up they were a big deal. They were one of the most powerful foes the Winchester boys could face. Over time the brothers discovered ways to trap them, ways to evict them from the bodies they possessed and eventually even ways to kill them. But killing demons usually involved killing the vessel they possessed.

We’ve seen demons evicted from a body with a spoken spell. We’ve seen demons trapped in place by a few simple chalk lines. And with the acquisition of the Colt pistol and Ruby’s knife the brothers found themselves in possession of two weapons which could kill demons easily. One bullet or one stab and the demon is killed in most cases; there have been instances of a few more powerful demons which could hold out a little but still they ended up evicted or dead eventually, with the exception of only Lucifer himself.

I can remember back in season one and two where whole episodes were about a single possession. And the effort was made to evict demons from the innocent bodies they possessed, not always, but it was attempted. I can remember an episode where a demon taunts Sam and Dean about the innocent body it possesses. The brothers end up torturing the host to hurt the demon inside and both end up feeling bad about what they’re doing to an innocent life. But they do evict the demon and they do save the body it was possessing. In the case of the demon Meg they make the extraordinary decision not to exorcise her because she is the only thing keeping her host alive following the trauma the body has sustained.

As I said; there have been times when the host has been considered, when they made the effort to save hosts and failed, but at least they made the effort. But that effort has been seen less and less since they got hold of the Colt and the knife. These days they just seem to go for the kill every time.

Of course, certain people get the effort taken to save them; even with the demon killing weapons we’ve instances of people close to the Winchesters becoming possessed where the brothers tried to evict the demon and save their loved one. At the end of season one, in the episode “Devil’s Trap” John Winchester is possessed by the yellow-eyed demon Azazel and Sam shoots his father with the colt while he’s possessed by the demon. Sam aims for John’s leg and the demon flees the body and papa Winchester is only wounded.

Later in the series Bobby Singer was possessed and managed to gain control of his body for long enough to stab himself with Ruby’s knife in a non-lethal way; the demon died and Bobby survived. This proves that you can kill or evict a demon using the knife without a lethal blow. Sure, Bobby was badly injured, but he did survive. But increasingly nowadays the brothers make no such effort to save the possessed innocents. They go for the chest every time.

In the opening two episodes of the season eight several demons are killed including a gardener, a postman and somebody’s next door neighbour. In the case of the next door neighbour the demon even tries to exit the body and Sam traps it in there while his brother then murders the host and demon together; seconds away from saving an innocent life and they chooses to kill instead. Dean is even prepared to kill one of the guest character’s mothers because she is possessed, he doesn’t even try to evict the demon. The disregard for life is quite shocking sometimes.

I have no idea how many innocent demon-possessed people Dean and Sam have murdered over the years but it must be quite a lot. And there’s no guilt, no shame. No admission that they’re basically wandering round America killing the people they should be saving. I understand that the characters have been through a lot over the years and sometimes they have no choice and they have to kill but more and more often they just don’t seem to care about the innocent life they’re taking along with the demon they do want to harm.

So who’s the real monster? I know that Sam and Dean are the heroes and that they face the worst type of monster you could imagine and the stakes are sometimes very, very big but to be honest with you half the time they’re as bad as the thing they’re fighting. And it really does bother me. It makes me look at the brothers in a less favourable light. I sometimes wonder if this is intentional and could become a theme that the show explores. The Winchester brothers have been through a lot. They’ve had their humanity tested time and again. I wonder if a battle for that humanity looms in the future. Because I’m starting to ask; at what point do you become the monster you want to kill? At what point do you sacrifice yourself, and everything that makes you human, for the battles you fight?

I’m also really starting to think that if I was possessed by a demon I sure wouldn’t want the Winchesters turning up to rescue me…

Source: http://www.gamesradar.com/blog-supernatural-who-are-the-real-monsters/

Edited March 5, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

IMO, Carver's entire era was built on the premise of examining monster in the human and the human in the monster (he did just come off of Being Human on Syfy...sooo).

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

Dean is even prepared to kill one of the guest character’s mothers because she is possessed, he doesn’t even try to evict the demon. The disregard for life is quite shocking sometimes.

There is a lot to unpack about Dean in s8.

He was just out of spending a year in Purgatory 24/7 Kill or be Killed and trying to find Cas. It fucked him up. He was compelled to trust a vampire for the sake of getting out of Purgatory a IMO that was a chance to show how that kind of "war" Dean has been fighting his whole life. Dean had PTSD. He was reacting to everything on a heightened level as though he was still fighting ALL the monsters in Purgatory. I mean he was quite literally back for maybe a WEEK when all that happened.

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

Dean is even prepared to kill one of the guest character’s mothers because she is possessed, he doesn’t even try to evict the demon. The disregard for life is quite shocking sometimes.

I'm presuming the author is referring to Mrs.Tran. She wasn't possessed by a random demon. She was possessed by CROWLEY. Dean didn't care what meatsuit Crowley was in, he was going to kill him. I'm not sure he would have been wrong to do it. Again, this was post-Purgatory!Dean who was all kinds of messed up.

[sarthaz]

Season 10 is largely unwatchable.  I want to fast-forward through at least half of these episodes.  Hannah, Cole, Dark Charlie, Kate, that laughable Wi-Fi ghost, two "Claire's a brooding teen" episodes in a row.  "Fan Fiction" tugs all the feels, but most of the rest of the season is hideous.  Season 8 gave us Dog and Amelia and Moody Teen Wolf and Taxi Driver and Man's Best Friend, and Season 9 brought us Zeke and Tessa-the-suicide-bomber and Bloodlines and a lot of other shit, but watching Season 10 on rewatch is a total slogfest.

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Season 10 is largely unwatchable.  I want to fast-forward through at least half of these episodes.  Hannah, Cole, Dark Charlie, Kate, that laughable Wi-Fi ghost, two "Claire's a brooding teen" episodes in a row.  "Fan Fiction" tugs all the feels, but most of the rest of the season is hideous.  Season 8 gave us Dog and Amelia and Moody Teen Wolf and Taxi Driver and Man's Best Friend, and Season 9 brought us Zeke and Tessa-the-suicide-bomber and Bloodlines and a lot of other shit, but watching Season 10 on rewatch is a total slogfest.

That's kind of funny.  I liked Season 10. but I'm never sure if it just gets a boost from Season 8 and season 9 being sooooo awful. 

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

That's kind of funny.  I liked Season 10. but I'm never sure if it just gets a boost from Season 8 and season 9 being sooooo awful. 

I really quite like s10 and UO most of s9. I think S9 and s10 play well as a binge from First Born to Brother's Keeper ..although I largely really dislike the MoC resolution. I'm still pissed about the too soon resolution of demon!Dean even though they ended up with Dark!Dean anyway...

I really only hate like 4 episodes of s10

Halt and Catch Fire
Paint it Black (minus the Dean confessional scene)
The Things They Carried (Cole Trention was the one of the worst guest characters ever IMO)
Paper Moon ( it was just SO BORING. I don't like Kate, Never have never will)

And s10 has some of my favorite episodes of the entire series

Riechenbach
Inside Man
The Hunter Games
The Executioner Song
The Werther Project
The Prisoner
Brother's Keeper (until they killed Death, which could have been great if they did something interesting with it and the whole Darkness thing. So pretty much everything until Death tells Dean he must kill Sam, which was a great tense well acted scene but then pfffttt Bye, Death )

[sarthaz]

I do like Dean's arc across Seasons 9 & 10, but it's possible some of my dislike for Season 10 is the way they totally wasted demon!Dean.  We're told about all this howling at the moon that he and Crowley did (past tense), but where the fuck was it?  I'd rather have 10 episodes of Dean and Crowley getting kicked out of Dave & Buster's and drinking till they puke than Paper Moon and Halt & Catch Fire.  I guess they had to return Dean to form by episode 200 so they could do Fan Fiction, but I'd rather they let the plot drive the episodes than some arbitrary numerical demarcation. 

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

 I guess they had to return Dean to form by episode 200 so they could do Fan Fiction, but I'd rather they let the plot drive the episodes than some arbitrary numerical demarcation. 

This is why I kind of resent Fan Fiction. It really mucked up the demon!Dean arc. Like the 200th didn't HAVE to be  Fan Fiction. Or they could have worked demon!Dean into the mix IMO.

[Wayward Son]

I honestly don't think we were ever going to get Demon!Dean long term Fan Fiction or no Fanfiction. The show has always shied away from the path that would have the brothers separated for more than a handful of episodes, and I couldn't see Demon!Dean just casually hunting with Sam. We are just lucky we got some present day scenes and they didn't skip a year and have demon!dean occur in flashbacks like they did with purgatory. 

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I honestly don't think we were ever going to get Demon!Dean long term Fan Fiction or no Fanfiction. The show has always shied away from the path that would have the brothers separated for more than a handful of episodes, and I couldn't see Demon!Dean just casually hunting with Sam. We are just lucky we got some present day scenes and they didn't skip a year and have demon!dean occur in flashbacks like they did with purgatory. 

Oh I don't think Dean was going to hunt with Sam.  I wanted a cat and mouse Sam hunts Dean, Dean hunts Sam for like 2 episodes. It should have gone 6 episodes at minimum. So much wasted potential

[Wayward Son]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh I don't think Dean was going to hunt with Sam.  I wanted a cat and mouse Sam hunts Dean, Dean hunts Sam for like 2 episodes. It should have gone 6 episodes at minimum. So much wasted potential

Sorry I worded it badly. I didn't mean that's what I thought you expected. What I meant was I don't think the writers were ever going to split the brothers up long term. It's the same reason we only got purgatory in flashbacks. 

The way I see it they had the following options

1. Long term demon Dean, which would involve the two brothers seperate long term and most likely Indulging in the cat and mouse game you mentioned. Sadly, this would never have been considered by the writers as they're too wary of alienating fans by going against the established dynamics ie Sam and Dean always together. 

2. Long term Demon!Dean, but they find some common goal to get Dean willing to work with Sam, while Sam works behind his back to try and cure him. This is a feasible option, but in my opinion having him in his normal routine with Sam would have taken away demon Deans impact and made it long term but not very satisfying. 

3. Long term but he's a prisoner. Probably could be made to work, but again it'd lessen the impact / drama of the storyline.

Maybe I'm uncreative and there are other options, but overall I'd say demon dean long term was never going to happen. The writers are simply too afraid of alienating those fans who would cause a riot on social media if they dared attempt a long term (i.e longer than 2-3 episodes) separation.  

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I really quite like s10 and UO most of s9. I think S9 and s10 play well as a binge from First Born to Brother's Keeper ..although I largely really dislike the MoC resolution. I'm still pissed about the too soon resolution of demon!Dean even though they ended up with Dark!Dean anyway...

I really only hate like 4 episodes of s10

Halt and Catch Fire
Paint it Black (minus the Dean confessional scene)
The Things They Carried (Cole Trention was the one of the worst guest characters ever IMO)
Paper Moon ( it was just SO BORING. I don't like Kate, Never have never will)

And s10 has some of my favorite episodes of the entire series

Riechenbach
Inside Man
The Hunter Games
The Executioner Song
The Werther Project
The Prisoner
Brother's Keeper (until they killed Death, which could have been great if they did something interesting with it and the whole Darkness thing. So pretty much everything until Death tells Dean he must kill Sam, which was a great tense well acted scene but then pfffttt Bye, Death )

I hated The Things They Carried also. And UO, I hated hated hated The Prisoner.  Besides The Prisoner, I loved all the episodes you listed under your favorites, with the possible exception of Brother's Keeper which I have a kind of love/hate relationship with.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 3/5/2017 at 11:51 AM, Wayward Son said:

But increasingly nowadays the brothers make no such effort to save the possessed innocents. They go for the chest every time.

This reminds me of a line (or two) from Man of the House with Tommy Lee Jones.  When asked (he's a Texas Ranger, I believe) if he couldn't just wound the bad guy or 'shoot the gun out of their hand', he replies, "No.  It's impossible."

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, Katy M said:

with the possible exception of Brother's Keeper which I have a kind of love/hate relationship with.

Me, too, because it was a bit of a Tabasco sauce moment* for me. I liked quite a bit of season 10, but as it was coming to a close, I could see the writing on the wall that it was all going to turn into a "Sam screws up" thing, so when it did, that was bad enough. But then they threw in Dean kills Death, and I thought "oh sure, Dean does something rash again that likely won't cause any problems... probably it'll somehow turn out to be a good thing." That last part was  supposed to be sarcastic on my part... so imagine my surprise when it kind of turned out to be true in season 11. *sigh*

So yeah, I was disappointed at the message that Sam does something that's usually shown as a sympathetic thing to do but instead really bad things happen. So for me season 10 was a decent season with a fairly annoying ending. At least unlike season 9, though, I got to enjoy some of the good stuff (episodes like Fanfiction, Riechenbch, Soul Survivor, Book of the Damned (loved the end montage), About a Boy, Inside Man, and even Ask Jeeves) before the Tabasco came along. With season 9, the Tabasco came early - "The Purge" - and pretty much ruined the rest of the season for me with the exception of Mother's Little Helper and Metafiction. And the first half didn't have all that much good for me anyway: pretty much parts of Dog Dean Afternoon and First Born and that's it. Season 8... not even gonna go there.

* A Tabasco sauce moment = Something that messes up everything else.

Edited March 8, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[sarthaz]

I read your responses and tried to see your perspectives, but Paint it Black is on TNT right now, and my case against Season 10 feels really strong at the moment. :)

[AwesomO4000]

27 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

I read your responses and tried to see your perspectives, but Paint it Black is on TNT right now, and my case against Season 10 feels really strong at the moment. :)

Heh. Point taken, but the next 3 episodes after that are fairly strong in my opinion. "Paint it Black" is one of the low points. It would be like judging season 3 after watching "Malleus Maleficarum" or " Bedtime Stories." Or season 2 after watching "Red Sky..."

Not that I think season 10 is as good as season 2 or 3 mind you, but I actually liked it a bit better than season 4 (I know, blaspheme), so it's definitely a Miles May Vary situation.

[Wayward Son]

11 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Heh. Point taken, but the next 3 episodes after that are fairly strong in my opinion. "Paint it Black" is one of the low points. It would be like judging season 3 after watching "Malleus Maleficarum" or " Bedtime Stories." Or season 2 after watching "Red Sky..."

Not that I think season 10 is as good as season 2 or 3 mind you, but I actually liked it a bit better than season 4 (I know, blaspheme), so it's definitely a Miles May Vary situation.

Red Sky is also season 3 I'm afraid. Straight after Bed Time Stories in fact. 

[AwesomO4000]

Ah, my mistake. Heh season 3 had some not so great eps I'm not even remembering was from that season, then. For me it was one of the most up and down seasons with eps I really dislike (like the ones I mentioned - and the one you reminded me belonged to season 3) and eps I really love (Like "A Very Supernatural Christmas" and "Mystery Spot" and for me "Ghostfacers").

For season 2 then, I guess it would be "No Exit." And from my perspective "Roadkill," though I know that there are quite a few people who like that episode. I see where it could be considered good - script, production, etc. For me it was just... tedious I guess is the word. For some "Croatoan" would also fit as an example here.

For me season 10 was a little like season 3 - with some eps I really disliked - see catrox's list above - except I didn't hate "Halt and Catch Fire"  but mostly because of the opening sequence which I thought was great (Loved the Avett Brothers being used). But I also disliked "There's No Place Like Home," too. But I loved "Fan Fiction," "About A Boy," "The Book of the Damned," "The Werther Project," and "Soul Survivor" And there were quite a few others I liked.

The main problem - besides the crappy episodes I mentioned - was the very end. I didn't even have a problem with the shortened demon Dean arc, because it wasn't like they dropped the issue entirely since  the mark of Cain was still a dominating presence. And though I enjoyed some aspects of the Soulless Sam arc, it did go on for me a few episodes too long, so how they did demon Dean was fine with me. It was the season finale. I was even enjoying the finale up until teh end, but as I have said before, it was bad enough they went ahead with the "Sam screws up by saving Dean and causes the Darkness" thing, but then they added on the "but Dean kills Death to save Sam with no consequences whatsoever, and maybe even a good one," just to... I have no idea what that was for actually, but sometimes I swear it was just to annoy me. I hated that part.

So that's my love-hate thing with season 10.

[auntvi]

Yes. That's why Brothers Keeper is my least favorite finale. It just made no sense to me. Beyond the blame issues, I don't understand why Death would require Dean to kill Sam - it's just too OOC for the relationship. If Death wanted Sam dead, he could have reaped him, especially since Sam cheated Death in S. 9.  At that point I was yelling at the TV!

[DeeDee79]

10 hours ago, sarthaz said:

I read your responses and tried to see your perspectives, but Paint it Black is on TNT right now, and my case against Season 10 feels really strong at the moment. :)

I feel your pain with that episode. IMO it's one of if not the worst episode of season 10.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, auntvi said:

Yes. That's why Brothers Keeper is my least favorite finale. It just made no sense to me. Beyond the blame issues, I don't understand why Death would require Dean to kill Sam - it's just too OOC for the relationship. If Death wanted Sam dead, he could have reaped him, especially since Sam cheated Death in S. 9.  At that point I was yelling at the TV!

That's why for the whole hiatus, I was absolutely convinced that was not Death.  But, since it's been a whole year and a half and basically nothing has been said about it beyond Billie confirming that Death was dead, I have to concede I was wrong.  Not the first time.  But, it just made no sense to me.

[ILoveReading]

Oops wrong thread

Edited March 9, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Wayward Son]

UO: I don't blame Sam for his speech in The Purge. If someone lied and manipulated me for months, collaborated with what was essentially a supernatural form of rape that took away my self-autonomy and resulted in my body being used for the murder of a close friend, I wouldn't limit myself to angry words. They'd be disowned.

And Dean's actions were not about saving Sam. Sam was ready and willing to die if needs  be hence Dean's need to lie to him on that day and for months afterwards. Deans actions were about serving his own co-dependent need to have Sam around. 

It's a long term bitterness of mine that the writers handwaved the horror of Sam's experiences away with the stupid "I lied" line. Too bad Jessica Jones didn't exist then as an example of how to write this type of storyline. Now there's a show that properly explored the sheer trauma and PTSD that comes with mind control / possession and didn't indulge in victim shaming.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Myrelle]

My UO is that the brothers shouldn't trust each other in the least anymore, since they've both done things that would have caused any sane person to disown each of them-especially if they were related to them. But I suppose I feel that way because of my other UO(and bitterness) over the idea that family isn't supposed to make you miserable even if that means that they have to watch their own backs unless they decide to change their abusive behavior-which only leaves me with the thought or idea that neither one of these brothers is wrapped tight enough to go it alone which is sad to me and not romantic or sweet or fun to watch in the least(another UO)-which is why I now live for the episodes when they're separated or work with other characters and the bro-bond has become literally non-existent to me-and this no matter what the writers, actors, and/or fandom continue to say  or try to tell the viewing audience. The relationship is pretty sick at this point and IMO, but I guess for some it retains its entertainment value, even so. They don't truly love each other. It's more of a sick kind of need than love, again IMUO. But they both think that it's truly familial love, as I guess many who watch this show and work on it think also. Scary-IMUO.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Myrelle

[shang yiet]

Let's just say Sam and Dean deserve each other, for better or for worse. How can we love such sick and twisted people?

Quote

.Now there's a show that properly explored the sheer trauma and PTSD that comes with mind control / possession and didn't indulge in victim shaming.

I wish they had just focused on that. Sam had just gone through a traumatic experience. Let him speak about that but no, via that speech, the writers quickly turned the focus back to Dean's motives and feelings again. What the heck? I was left scratching my head. So that's my UO reason for disliking that speech.

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, shang yiet said:

Let's just say Sam and Dean deserve each other, for better or for worse. How can we love such sick and twisted people?

I wish they had just focused on that. Sam had just gone through a traumatic experience. Let him speak about that but no, via that speech, the writers quickly turned the focus back to Dean's motives and feelings again. What the heck? I was left scratching my head. So that's my UO reason for disliking that speech.

That's my biggest complaint about the storyline. I would never have liked it, as I consider Dean's part in the whole thing the most vile thing any of the main characters have ever done. However, I could have understood and respected the writers reason for going there had it been used to explore the more troubling aspects of the brothers relationship. Had it been used to make both realise there are some lines you just don't cross if you truly love someone.

Instead Sam's trauma is trivialised and we are expected to feel sorry for Dean because mean old Sam said a few mean things to him. As if anything Sam said could compare to months of being lied to and abused by the person you love most, of losing your self autonomy and free will and knowing that your body was used to murder a close friend. 

The fact that Dean never realises just how grossly wrong he was and goes as far as to say he'd do it again is worst of all. Like I said, if it were me I wouldn't stop at a few choice remarks. Such unrepentance alone would have ensured I walked out and never looked back. So Dean got off pretty lightly in my opinion. 

Edited March 9, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Myrelle]

9 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Too bad Jessica Jones didn't exist then as an example of how to write this type of storyline. Now there's a show that properly explored the sheer trauma and PTSD that comes with mind control / possession and didn't indulge in victim shaming.

Taking my response to the bitch/jerk thread.

[Katy M]

10 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

It's a long term bitterness of mine that the writers handwaved the horror of Sam's experiences away with the stupid "I lied" line. Too bad Jessica Jones didn't exist then as an example of how to write this type of storyline. Now there's a show that properly explored the sheer trauma and PTSD that comes with mind control / possession and didn't indulge in victim shaming.

I'm not going to comment on the Sam/Dean aspect of this. But, another thing that bothered me was after Sam had been unknowingly possessed, and after Gadreel had killed Kevin, and basically kidnapped Sam, Cas asked Sam if he felt like Gadreel had meant to hurt him and he said no.  And then in the next episode, he listed Gadreel as one of "Dean's real friend."  WTF?  I had to get that off my chest since this conversation was happening, but I don't really feel like that's an unpopular opinion, so apologies.

[Wayward Son]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

I'm not going to comment on the Sam/Dean aspect of this. But, another thing that bothered me was after Sam had been unknowingly possessed, and after Gadreel had killed Kevin, and basically kidnapped Sam, Cas asked Sam if he felt like Gadreel had meant to hurt him and he said no.  And then in the next episode, he listed Gadreel as one of "Dean's real friend."  WTF?  I had to get that off my chest since this conversation was happening, but I don't really feel like that's an unpopular opinion, so apologies.

Ugh, that's definitely awful as well! Another example of how the show tried to downplay Sam's suffering. The whole "redemption" arc was meant to tell those of us outraged on Sam's behalf that we were wrong. "See it wasn't so bad after all! Gadreel was really a good guy at heart!"

I would be very surprised if the show succeeded in creating a storyline I hate more than the possession storyline, ugh. 

Edited March 9, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Zolo]

tl;dr warning

The amount of plotholes/sheer stupidity in season 12 is mindboggling. It's like the writers have this inside joke where they challenge each other to come up with more and more ridiculous stuff. I'm still watching the show, but only for the occassional Supernatural moments that made this program such a blast and my favorite.

I would probably watch it for another 20 seasons regardless, but these days you really have to turn your brain off to enjoy it. And even if you ignore the plotholes, it feels like the writers just gave up on trying to remain fresh, doing something different. The most blatant example: when the boys face any kind of monster or demon, it almost always goes down the same way.

Both of them are overpowered, usually flying into a wall or a shelf, then the monster/demon foolishly concentrates only on one of them, while the other sneaks up behind the creature and stabs it. The fights start to reminisce the ones saw in Power Rangers in terms of repetition, and it is ridiculous. There are so many things the writers could do differently, but it's like they just gave up.

Another problem is the villains. I feel like the villains took a major step back as the show went on. You know what they should do? Bring back Jesse Turner. The kid had reality warping powers. He could be, what, 17-18 now? Cast a talented young kid, and build him up as a villain who is neither inherently good or bad. They said the kid would always draw demons to himself, which means he had to go through a lot, probably killed a lot too, this would lead to him becoming a fairly troubled young man, but not yet truly evil. Someone who can still be saved.

Or do something completely different, and bring a cliched storyline, but still do it amazingly well. Even a dumb storyline like a scientist creating a genetically altered monster could work. A scientist using CRISPR on 4-5 different monsters, creating a hybrid. Some really badass thing, like the monster in Jeepers Creepers that was virtually undestructible. Bring us back the oldest, most badass monsters from the early seasons, and mix them. I realize this would probably require some expensive CGI work, but wouldn't it be awesome if done really well?

Just a mindless beast of a villain that, for once, has no alterior motive, and cannot be reasoned with, has only one thing on its mind, to kill. When it's injured, it flies or leaps the eff away and cocoons itself up, or something like that. Do something, anything other than the same old storylines and idiotic soul bearing between the brothers. Again, I will still watch this show because it was my favorite for a long time, but it feels like the writers just gave up on us, and it's a little bit disappointing. 

Edited March 9, 2017 by Zolo

[Wayward Son]

I'm sorry to hear you're not enjoying the season so far @Zolo . I'm enjoying it (and season 11) more than I've enjoyed the show in years, but I think that's mainly down to the fact I'm just relieved to get a break from the brother on brother angst that made up seasons 8-10!

However, I can definitely understand why others aren't as in to it! Hopefully the rest of the season will be more to your taste :)

Edited March 9, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

but I think that's mainly down to the fact I'm just relieved to get a break from the brother on brother angst that made up seasons 8-10!

I agree, but that's why I'm afraid of what's to come based on the end of last week's episode.