Super Social Analysis: Gender, Race, Ethnicity, and LGBT in Movies

[NutMeg]

I've been watching movies from the 1950s and 60s, and I'm impressed by how good roles there existed back then for women. Grace Kelly in Rear Window is truly kick ass :) For some reason I find each actress from that period super recognisable, but I get the men all mixed up, they have very similar delivery and acting style. Maybe they'll differentiate more with time, I mean when I see more movies.  

[AimingforYoko]

Is class as big a barrier as race and gender?

[xaxat]

1 hour ago, AimingforYoko said:

Is class as big a barrier as race and gender?

That article is kind of a mess. It starts out examining how class (not race) affects casting in the UK. Then takes a hypothesis that class (which correlates to race in the US) may play a similar role over here. But then it goes on to look at white actors who got their jobs because of nepotism. Which is related to class, but I think it has more to do with the fact that there are a lot more white people in Hollywood who can hire their kids than POC.

I'm not totally dismissing the idea, but that article didn't make the case for me. 

And if you look at casting calls, class isn't an excluding factor. Race on the other hand. . . 

Edited February 12, 2017 by xaxat

[AimingforYoko]

1 minute ago, xaxat said:

And if you look at a lot of casting calls, class isn't an excluding factor. Race often is.

I think the point is, class erects the barrier to even getting to the casting calls.

[topanga]

On 2/10/2017 at 10:37 AM, Ms Blue Jay said:

responding to @topanga:  

I'm not going to give JLaw and ScarJo a free pass on their shit.  Lot of evidence for them being white feminists.  I actually love ScarJo movies but her comments on Asian people recently have really upset me.

I understand your point totally.  Someone like Hathaway has done nothing offensive.  I could see how Susan Surandon being outspoken on her politics would upset some people.  A lot of people who don't like Trump are not exactly happy with her anyone but Hillary campaign.

Jennifer Lawrence H A S been overhyped.  She's what, 25 and she's been nominated for 3 Oscars or something? Do you think a black or Asian woman with her talent would ever be recognized that way or put in that many films or given that many opportunities?  After Passengers bombs she'll be just fine and probably head another franchise or two.  Am I supposed to feel inspired that a beautiful young blonde with a perfect body does well in Hollywood?  That older men see her as a muse and let her act in parts that require her to be age 17 to 70 or whatever? Because I don't.

I totally agree with your feelings about disparities in terms of opportunities and recognition for white actresses vs. actresses of color. 

I was merely commending on the extreme vitriol that many viewers have for actresses whose work we don't like or who are overexposed. Vitriol I usually only see toward male actors when they've done horrible things in their real lives. 

[topanga]

22 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

I think the point is, class erects the barrier to even getting to the casting calls.

How? Doesn't an agent notify clients about casting calls? And while I agree, that a richer, more connected actor is likely to have a big-time agent who knows about upcoming movies, I think there's a bigger impact for people of color facing the "we're only casting white for this role" crap. If you watch or listen to interviews with pretty well known actors like Kerry Washington, Gabrielle Union, Ken Jeong, America Ferrera, and Wendell Pierce. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

I agree, I know what you mean @topanga.

I think about this stuff too, because there was a time in my life when I really hated Britney Spears (Slave 4 U times) and J.Lo (Bennifer times) and now I have only positive things towards them both.  I try to analyze that as best as I can.  I really try and think whether I have real reasons for disliking something, or whether it's latent or unchecked sexist bias.

I think the fact that so many people during the Silver Linings Playbook award season reacted positively and almost cultishly towards Jennifer Lawrence during the total, 24/7, aggressive onslaught of the "please like J.Law and see how real and goofy and natural she is" media campaign also reveals a bias many people have - a bias TOWARDS young, perfect looking white women.  The whole thing made me kind of sick.  There were other women nominated for Best Actress that year , and you never heard anything about them.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

http://mashable.com/2017/01/30/jessica-williams-salma-hayek-at-sundance/#qVRgI6.wASqF

Will continue to scroll back the thread to make sure I'm not double-posting.  So disappointed in Salma Hayek.

[AimingforYoko]

3 hours ago, topanga said:

How? Doesn't an agent notify clients about casting calls? And while I agree, that a richer, more connected actor is likely to have a big-time agent who knows about upcoming movies, I think there's a bigger impact for people of color facing the "we're only casting white for this role" crap. If you watch or listen to interviews with pretty well known actors like Kerry Washington, Gabrielle Union, Ken Jeong, America Ferrera, and Wendell Pierce.

The class issue is not about who shows up at a casting call or who the casting agents are looking for. Class is about who chooses the profession in the first place. Single parents who have to work a bunch frequently can't put in the time required to get their kids to rehearsals, etc. And many schools don't even have a drama program. Guess where most of those schools are located?

[JustaPerson]

Isn't that similar to how it is in the UK? In a slightly different way -- you pretty much have to have some kind of formal training and the rich kids are really the only ones who can to go to Oxbridge et al. for a degree in Drama. See: Benedict C, Hiddleston, Eddie Redmayne, etc. 

[Silver Raven]

Danny Dyer is certainly not upper class.  And yet he's a pretty successful actor.

[topanga]

2 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

The class issue is not about who shows up at a casting call or who the casting agents are looking for. Class is about who chooses the profession in the first place. Single parents who have to work a bunch frequently can't put in the time required to get their kids to rehearsals, etc. And many schools don't even have a drama program. Guess where most of those schools are located?

 

10 minutes ago, JustaPerson said:

Isn't that similar to how it is in the UK? In a slightly different way -- you pretty much have to have some kind of formal training and the rich kids are really the only ones who can to go to Oxbridge et al. for a degree in Drama. See: Benedict C, Hiddleston, Eddie Redmayne, etc. 

This article provides snippets of interviews from actors of color who were classically trained, sometimes at prestigious programs like Julliard. And they face the same barriers as actors of color who don't have any formal training. 

[methodwriter85]

I found this skit SNL did last year...thought it applied to this thread:

I would honestly be down for a real version of "Redline." That's a topic that doesn't usually get covered.

[DarkRaichu]

14 minutes ago, topanga said:

 

This article provides snippets of interviews from actors of color who were classically trained, sometimes at prestigious programs like Julliard. And they face the same barriers as actors of color who don't have any formal training. 

I thought the class thing was more like who got the better connections in Hollywood.  Will Smith's kids did not need to go to any Julliard to get top billings in big budget movies

[raezen]

4 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

I thought the class thing was more like who got the better connections in Hollywood.  Will Smith's kids did not need to go to any Julliard to get top billings in big budget movies

I get what your saying but this may no longer be the best example anymore, there are rumours that Smith is losing roles left, right and centre because he tries to write his kids in the picture too., and studios aren't having it anymore. 

I think what complicates this issue further is that race is classed in the United States. 

[aradia22]

Quote

I was merely commending on the extreme vitriol that many viewers have for actresses whose work we don't like or who are overexposed. Vitriol I usually only see toward male actors when they've done horrible things in their real lives. 

I think yes, there is a lot of ingrained misogyny in how society trains us to tear women apart (whether you're a man or a woman yourself). Putting that aside, in the way you for instance just have to put aside the base level of nastiness every woman will experience if she puts herself out there on the internet, I see two big problems. I don't think these are the main issues, but I do think they're significant.

1) Because of the roles written for women... particularly the roles that tend to be the most commercially viable, actresses have to trade on personality more than actors. So there's more pressure on them to put up a good public front. Be friendly and personable and charming. This is the Julia Roberts/Sandra Bullock kind of movie... even outside of the romantic comedies. Personally I was alienated from Anne Hathaway for a while because during the awards circuit she seemed to be denigrating the very people who supported her when she was making those movies. Personality counts when your movies rely on people liking you. Contrast with someone like Charlize Theron who isn't a monster (haha) but doesn't make movies that rely on how the public views her persona.

2) There are problems with who's getting the good jobs in Hollywood. Put that aside. There are still a ton of actresses. And yet, whether it's in a magazine article or it's the new young starlet on the rise, the media has the habit of treating that one woman like she's a spokesperson for all women. And her life must conform to some ideal or at least be relatable to all the other women. People aren't doing that to actors (unless they're actors of color, but again, trying not to get sidetracked). This sets these actresses up for failure. Inevitably someone will be disappointed in you when you're (probably) terrible at talking about feminist issues in a meaningful way. Or you have something patronizing to say about motherhood. Or you seem ungrateful for some aspect of your charmed life. Or you try and act like a "cool girl" or "one of the guys" when someone was counting on you to be a good role model. An actress' choices play out in the court of public opinion as a judgment on all women or sometimes all teenage girls, etc. fill in the blank. 

Side note: I think you're allowed to dislike an actress. Personally, I disliked Angelina Jolie irrationally for a long time. I still do, but less intensely. I didn't find her acting compelling. In spite of her disavowals of her father, I think she benefited from a kind of nepotism. She seemed to fall back on genetically-blessed looks instead of skill or talent. And her tabloid persona put me off. Other people feel that way about Gwyneth Paltrow. 

[DarkRaichu]

14 hours ago, raezen said:

I get what your saying but this may no longer be the best example anymore, there are rumours that Smith is losing roles left, right and centre because he tries to write his kids in the picture too., and studios aren't having it anymore. 

I think what complicates this issue further is that race is classed in the United States. 

To me that was a reflection of what Hollywood truly is.  Hollywood is primarily about the bottom line, so class/connection, gender, and race have to ultimately answer to the mighty dollar.  Had the movies with Smiths' kids been smash hits at the box office, the studio would not hesitate to clone them in more movies.

[JBC344]

I don't know if I necessarily believe those rumors.  With all due respect to the Smith kids their careers have taken a very unconventional turn.  Willow Smith decided that she didn't want to be in the remake version of Annie because she wanted to focus on making music and being a teenager.  Jaden Smith has done four movies, two good, one decent, and one awful.  Of the two successful movies, one was critically acclaimed, and the other made hundreds of millions of dollars.  After the Karate Kid remake there wasn't a studio on the planet that didn't want him.  He decided that he didn't want to make any more of those movies.  His last role was a supporting part in Baz Lurhman's Netflix show "The Get Down".

If anything it doesn't seem like the kids are really all that interested in being the "stars" that their parents are.  Now personally I find the kids to be a little pretentious, but the overall opinion that the kids are invading Hollywood against all odds has always been a gross exaggeration at best. 

I've also brought this up in an earlier post in terms of juxtaposition but it's an interesting question to ponder.  Do the Smith kids "pedigree" give them a fair advantage?  Sure.  Is that advantage justified in contrast to them being "minorities" in Hollywood?

Did Jaden Smith get the Karate Kid remake because he was Will and Jada's son?  Sure he did.  As a black man I have to say I had no problem with that and can take pride in the fact that a movie staring a young black male was embraced and made hundreds of millions of dollars. 

Is Jaden Smith's "nepotisim" ok because it counter acts the inherent racism/discrimination he would normally face in Hollywood?

[topanga]

On 2/13/2017 at 5:00 PM, DarkRaichu said:

I thought the class thing was more like who got the better connections in Hollywood.  Will Smith's kids did not need to go to any Julliard to get top billings in big budget movies

21 hours ago, JBC344 said:

Did Jaden Smith get the Karate Kid remake because he was Will and Jada's son?  Sure he did.  As a black man I have to say I had no problem with that and can take pride in the fact that a movie staring a young black male was embraced and made hundreds of millions of dollars. 

Is Jaden Smith's "nepotisim" ok because it counter acts the inherent racism/discrimination he would normally face in Hollywood?

 

DarkRaichu, I was responding to this post: 

On 2/13/2017 at 1:55 PM, AimingforYoko said:

The class issue is not about who shows up at a casting call or who the casting agents are looking for. Class is about who chooses the profession in the first place. Single parents who have to work a bunch frequently can't put in the time required to get their kids to rehearsals, etc. And many schools don't even have a drama program. Guess where most of those schools are located?

 

I think there are both class and race issues in Hollywood. Jaden Smith doesn't face class issues, but as a black actor, even being Will Smith's son, he certainly faces racial discrimination. In this country, I don't know if class has been studied as extensively as race, but I'm sure a "connected" black actor has it almost as hard as a poor black actor with no connections (or any actor of color).   

And in terms of who chooses acting, I think there are plenty of white actors who come from non-rich families who fall in love with acting and eventually make it in Hollywood. Selena Gomez, who's Latina but has played more than traditional Latina roles, comes from a single parent family. Jim Carrey, Demi Moore, and Hilary Swank come from very poor families. 

[xaxat]

Michael K. Williams Asks: Am I Typecast?

[topanga]

9 minutes ago, xaxat said:

Michael K. Williams Asks: Am I Typecast?

This is brilliant. 

[proserpina65]

On ‎02‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 4:17 PM, JustaPerson said:

Isn't that similar to how it is in the UK? In a slightly different way -- you pretty much have to have some kind of formal training and the rich kids are really the only ones who can to go to Oxbridge et al. for a degree in Drama. See: Benedict C, Hiddleston, Eddie Redmayne, etc. 

Not really, or Kenneth Branagh would never have attended the most prestigious drama school in England.

Plus there are plenty of successful actors in the UK who don't have that kind of training.  It might be a bit of a disadvantage starting out, but not that big of one.

[Athena]

James McAvoy actually talked about the Class Ceiling issue on Colbert last year:

[xaxat]

When Will a Black Actor Get to Have Their DeadpoolMoment?

Quote

The Deadpool moment, then, could be defined as a star-making role that comes as the culmination of a uniquely forgiving career marked as much by talent as it is failure. Who else can boast of constantly getting leading roles after a years-long string of failed flicks?. . . 

So even the most prolific and bankable black actors have had to be exceptional to learn their leading man roles, while Reynolds was able to stay both in the public eye and the good graces of casting agents and directors alike by showing off his comedic chops in routinely sub-par to mediocre level movies. It’s a double standard, albeit an irritatingly unsurprising one. . . .

So the question emerges: when will we see the black Deadpool? When will a black actor be given the chance to float by in a string of C-level movies and put out their biggest hit to date at age 40? Could any black actor? Could any woman, regardless of race?

Edited February 15, 2017 by xaxat

[Ms Blue Jay]

The director of the live action Mulan movie is a white female.  Now, this:

 

Some people are extremely upset and I don't blame them at all

Edited February 16, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Silje]

Here's another article about the class ceiling in the UK. 

Quote

[R]esearch reveals that 42% of British Bafta winners went to fee-paying schools.

A major academic study (...) reveals the extent to which actors from relatively wealthy backgrounds are dominating the theatre and film industry. Following the findings of the Sutton Trust last week, (...) the research describes the acting industry as “heavily skewed towards the privileged”. 

Without the support of middle-class or wealthy parents, they complain, actors have little chance of surviving in an industry where access to London’s West End and attending the right social events can be crucial. The high cost of attending drama school and the dwindling of local repertory theatres also means that fledgling actors cannot learn their craft in the provinces.

The survey, to be published in full in the journal Sociology, found that a huge 73% of actors who replied were from backgrounds that qualify sociologically as “middle-class”, despite the fact this sector makes up only around 29% of the whole population.

Idris Elba held a keynote speech on diversity in the media to Parliament a year ago, where he also had some comments on how class impact people's opportunities.

Quote

But when you don't reflect the real world, too much talent is trashed. Talent is everywhere, opportunity isn't. And talent can’t reach opportunity.

[...]

They also had the imagination. It’s that same imagination casting director Nina Gold had, when she cast the film “Attack The Block”. She searched the whole of London for raw talent, much of it diverse. She found John Boyega, a British African. Nina then put Boyega up to be the hero in the latest Star Wars blockbuster.

Since when did the lead character in Star Wars come from Peckham? Since a woman with imagination became the casting director.

[...]

We came third in the medal table [at the London Olympics] - an amazing achievement. But make no mistake, we could have won more gold. Here are two incredible statistics: 50% of British medal winners went to private school. Yet only 7% of British kids GO to private school.

How many Mo Farah's did we miss? How many Jessica Ennis’ will never be discovered? Think what we could have achieved if we'd fished for talent consistently among the other 93% of British kids. And that’s what we SHOULD BE DOING in ALL industries, including the TV & film industry: - be more consistent about looking for talent everywhere

[Ms Blue Jay]

#ThankyouMattDamon is now trending on Twitter where Asian people thank Matt Damon for teaching them about their culture :)

[angora]

Thanks for sharing that speech from Idris Elba, Silje - really well done, and who wouldn't want to have John Boyega as the ace up their sleeve?

And thanks for the Twitter tip, Ms. Blue Jay!  I just read a bunch of #ThankyouMattDamon tweets.  They're good for my soul.

[Silver Raven]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

#ThankyouMattDamon is now trending on Twitter where Asian people thank Matt Damon for teaching them about their culture :)

Funny.  I thought it was a Chinese production, produced and directed by Chinese people. Do we thank foreign actors in American movies for teaching us about American culture?

[aradia22]

Quote

Funny.  I thought it was a Chinese production, produced and directed by Chinese people. Do we thank foreign actors in American movies for teaching us about American culture?

That gives me a bit of a headache. It does bring up an interesting point. I can't think of a movie where a nonwhite character is shown to have assimilated into American culture to a great degree or to be so heroic that he (or she, but come on, it's probably a he with the way Hollywood is) is more "American" than the Americans. I guess it would make more sense for the character to be an immigrant rather than just a nonwhite citizen who was born here though I can't picture that either. Like, what's the equivalent of The Last Samurai for a nonwhite actor in an American movie? 

[Silver Raven]

Quote

Like, what's the equivalent of The Last Samurai for a nonwhite actor in an American movie? 

Selma, off the top of my head.

[VCRTracking]

I've been hearing this from people who've seen it.

[JustaPerson]

That's nice to hear! I was trying to hold off on judging the film, especially after I saw that it had a famous Chinese director at the helm and was being produced by a Chinese production company and feature a pretty much entirely Chinese aside form Matt, Pedro, and Willam Defoe. 

Edited February 18, 2017 by JustaPerson

[Zuleikha]

#ThankyouMattDamon is now trending on Twitter where Asian people thank Matt Damon for teaching them about their culture :)

It seems backwards to me to advocate for Asian inclusion while simultaneously erasing Zhang Yimou from the movie. That's been one of my criticisms of how Constance Wu critiqued the movie in the first place. I think there's a lot of counterproductive oversimplifying going on.

THE GREAT WALL is like this awesome Trojan Horse. Marketed as a Hollywood White Savior flick, it's actually a big middle finger to that shit

Shaun Lau, quoted above, disputed that, but in his Twitter feed he didn't explain why. I plan to see it because it sounds like a fun, beautiful popcorn flick, so then I'll judge for myself.

[aradia22]

Quote

Damon's job is to put her hero's journey in English.

I'm suspicious about this part but reserving judgment. We'll see what other reviews have to say. I probably won't see it myself because I'm not big on action movies. 

[cynic]

This might be old news, but I thought the rumor was that Han's love interest in this movie was going to be black, since they were looking at black actresses and his LI was black in the expanded universe. Even after Emilia Clarke was cast, people were still speculating that she was another of the female roles and a black woman could still be cast. Well, I guess the first set photo lays that theory to rest (at least for me, since I haven't really been paying attention. You guys probably already knew.) I'm disappointed. There have been no black females featured in the 8 movies yet. (In fact, all the women have looked kinda alike.) Also, I really dislike Clarke's acting. 

Edited February 21, 2017 by cynic

[vibeology]

I agree that this is disappointing. Every major female character in Star Wars looks like they could be related (and often with good reason since several of them are) but it would have been nice to finally have a female character who was a woman of color. I just remember how powerfully I was effected seeing Rey hold a Lightsaber (I was sobbing in the theatre) so I can only imagine how powerful it would have been for woc to see someone like them in a Star Wars story. They did such a good job adding male diversity in Rogue One; I don't get why they're holding back on diversity in the roles for women.

[ChelseaNH]

Diversity = 1 step away from straight white male.  They can't give up their anchor point.

[JBC344]

3 hours ago, cynic said:

This might be old news, but I thought the rumor was that Han's love interest in this movie was going to be black, since they were looking at black actresses and his LI was black in the expanded universe. Even after Emilia Clarke was cast, people were still speculating that she was another of the female roles and a black woman could still be cast. Well, I guess the first set photo lays that theory to rest (at least for me, since I haven't really been paying attention. You guys probably already knew.) I'm disappointed. There have been no black females featured in the 8 movies yet. (In fact, all the women have looked kinda alike.) Also, I really dislike Clarke's acting. 

I think that we should probably check the cast list.  You may be right but there are also cast members who are not in the photo, Thandie Newton (I know Newton is not the black love interest). 

Just checked the list and it looks like there are no young black actresses listed, so Emilia or Phoebe may be the love interest.

[slf]

On 2/13/2017 at 3:27 PM, topanga said:

 

This article provides snippets of interviews from actors of color who were classically trained, sometimes at prestigious programs like Julliard. And they face the same barriers as actors of color who don't have any formal training. 

Excellent article. If there's one thing about the UK that grates on my nerves it's the "classism is our racism!" thing, like, no. Racism is their racism. England is a pretty racist country, on par with the US in most respects. Their film industry manages to be even more racist than our's, which is impressive.

Speaking of, I don't recommend Amazing Grace. It star Ioan Gruffudd, Romola Garai, and Benedict Cumberbatch and is basically about how awful slavery was for white people. Sat through it last night and now I kind of hate everyone involved.

Edited February 24, 2017 by slf

[proserpina65]

15 hours ago, slf said:

Speaking of, I don't recommend Amazing Grace. It star Ioan Gruffudd, Romola Garai, and Benedict Cumberbatch and is basically about how awful slavery was for white people. Sat through it last night and now I kind of hate everyone involved.

The movie is about the decades-long fight to end the slave trade/slavery in the British Empire.  Which pretty much had to be done by white men because they were the politicians in Britain at the time.  I enjoyed the movie for what it was, but I think if someone went into it expecting something else, it would be an entirely different and unsatisfactory experience.  So while I would recommend it, I would do so with the caveat that the film isn't about slavery itself or the black experience in England, and that should be taken into consideration when deciding whether or not to watch it.

[topanga]

15 hours ago, slf said:

Speaking of, I don't recommend Amazing Grace. It star Ioan Gruffudd, Romola Garai, and Benedict Cumberbatch and is basically about how awful slavery was for white people. Sat through it last night and now I kind of hate everyone involved.

 

6 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

The movie is about the decades-long fight to end the slave trade/slavery in the British Empire.  Which pretty much had to be done by white men because they were the politicians in Britain at the time.  I enjoyed the movie for what it was, but I think if someone went into it expecting something else, it would be an entirely different and unsatisfactory experience.  So while I would recommend it, I would do so with the caveat that the film isn't about slavery itself or the black experience in England, and that should be taken into consideration when deciding whether or not to watch it.

But did the movie show why they were fighting to end the slave trade? Were there any black characters to show the human impact of the slave trade? 

I'm thinking of Shindler's List. Even though the movie was from the perspective of Oscar Schindler, we did see how his personal journey personally ultimately resulted in saving the lives of over a thousand Jews. And we witnessed first-hand what a Nazi-occupied Eruope was like for Jewish people. 

[VCRTracking]

19 hours ago, topanga said:

But did the movie show why they were fighting to end the slave trade? Were there any black characters to show the human impact of the slave trade? 

Honestly I prefer people fighting to end something based on it just being the right and moral thing to do as opposed to them doing it because they personally know a victim and suddenly realizing "Hey, the way my friend is being treated is wrong! Someone should be doing something about this!"

Edited February 23, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Trini]

8 hours ago, topanga said:

But did the movie show why they were fighting to end the slave trade? Were there any black characters to show the human impact of the slave trade? 

Yes, there were free black characters. It's been a while since I've watched it, so I don't remember the amount of screentime they had. They were not the main characters. Would still recommend the film, though.

[galax-arena]

Re: The Great Wall, my problem is that even if Matt Damon isn't actually a white savior, there is still an element of erasure at work when it comes to how the movie was marketed here in the US. The film itself (with Damon as not-a-white-savior) doesn't exist in a vacuum, its existence is all wrapped up in how the movie is packaged and sold to audiences. And in the US, that means highlighting/prioritizing the white man. As an Asian-American, that makes me not want to watch the movie regardless of how the story actually unfolds in the film. I'm not going to reward marketing that so deliberately/consciously pushes Asians off to the side. 

[slf]

On 2/22/2017 at 3:09 PM, proserpina65 said:

The movie is about the decades-long fight to end the slave trade/slavery in the British Empire.  Which pretty much had to be done by white men because they were the politicians in Britain at the time.  I enjoyed the movie for what it was, but I think if someone went into it expecting something else, it would be an entirely different and unsatisfactory experience.  So while I would recommend it, I would do so with the caveat that the film isn't about slavery itself or the black experience in England, and that should be taken into consideration when deciding whether or not to watch it.

Well, I sat down to watch a film portraying just that. But that's not what this is. As even the Guardian pointed out the movie shows the "fight" through the emotional and psychological effect it had on the white people involved (and that's an issue for a number of reasons including this isn't a subject British film explores that often):

"What you might notice about these characters is that they are all white. Amazing Grace has one substantial black character: Olaudah Equiano (played by Senegalese singer Youssou N’Dour), a former slave who achieved great fame on the publication of his bestselling memoir in 1789. Beyond his fleeting appearance, Amazing Grace is all about how slavery damaged the British, whether they were traumatised ex-slavers, heroic yet tormented abolitionists, or the corrupted souls supporting the trade. Historically speaking, this film has done plenty of research – maybe even too much, because it can’t stop explaining the complexities of things such as the Royal Navy’s right to intercept foreign trade shipping under neutral flags. It just feels rather quaint for a movie made in 2006 to focus so unremittingly on how awful slavery was for white people."

Also, while abolitionist laws did have to be passed by the white men who made up the entire government they were not solely responsible for the ending of slavery and their personal feelings rarely had anything to do with it. The middle and upper classes tended to be pro-slavery and continued to be so after slavery was ended. You can't remove black people, slaves specifically, from abolitionism. 

Like @topanga pointed out, Schindler's List centers Jewish suffering even as it's viewed through the eyes of Schindler and it never lets Schindler (and other non-Jews) off the hook for his involvement in their suffering, directly or indirectly. Amazing Grace centers the suffering of the whites. I do think there's a way to follow the abolitionist movement from the point of view of white people; I once attended a local play about abolitionists that was done in the style of 12 Angry Men and it was fantastic. Amazing Grace, not so much.

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Honestly I prefer people fighting to end something based on it just being the right and moral thing to do as opposed to them doing it because they personally know a victim and suddenly realizing "Hey, the way my friend is being treated is wrong! Someone should be doing something about this!"

@VCRTracking It sucks that people are like that, only caring once it affects them or someone they know, but sadly a lot of people are like that. I don't mind watching a movie that portrays people having selfish motivations if that's accurate. Amazing Grace portrays one former slave-owner as becoming an abolitionist once he converted to Christianity, and apparently learned about morality and brotherly love, but that's not true. In real life the dude was preaching from the pulpit and then going home to whip people he'd enslaved. He didn't come out against slavery until more than a quarter of a century after he left the trade. And when making movies about slavery it's important to be honest about the motivations of whites; anything less is disrespectful to the victims of the trade and their descendents. 

I don't know how to phrase this. There's a tendency to frame the motivations and actions of abolitionists (or any members of an oppressive class who fought against oppression) as purer than they often were, more in line with what we call modern sensibilities and it's not so modern audiences can relate to them. It's a little bit of revisionist history; the end of slavery in England was mostly about politics, economics. Suffering and humanity weren't major factors, sadly, and there was actually widespread support in England for the Confederacy during the American Civil War (especially, of course, among the upper classes). (Hell, many Union states were still allowing slavery during the war but, y'know, they don't show that in the movies.) It's not honest, it's not about prioritizing the "spirit" of what happened while taking dramatic license. It's about creating white saviors that white audience members can feel good about. Amazing Grace does that; it snuffs out the more complicated motivations and relationships that brought about the end of slavery in favor of focusing on the personal suffering of the white characters. 

Edited February 24, 2017 by slf

[ribboninthesky1]

1 hour ago, slf said:

I don't know how to phrase this. There's a tendency to frame the motivations and actions of abolitionists (or any members of an oppressive class who fought against oppression) as purer than they often were, more in line with what we call modern sensibilities and it's not so modern audiences can relate to them. It's a little bit of revisionist history; the end of slavery in England was mostly about politics, economics. Suffering and humanity weren't major factors, sadly, and there was actually widespread support in England for the Confederacy during the American Civil War (especially, of course, among the upper classes). (Hell, many Union states were still allowing slavery during the war but, y'know, they don't show that in the movies.) It's not honest, it's not about prioritizing the "spirit" of what happened while taking dramatic license. It's about creating white saviors that white audience members can feel good about. Amazing Grace does that; it snuffs out the more complicated motivations and relationships that brought about the end of slavery in favor of focusing on the personal suffering of the white characters. 

This. All.of.this. 

[VCRTracking]

The YouTube series "No Small Parts" examines the careers of prominent character actors. Episode #21, is an hour long and focuses on one of my favorites, Chinese-American actor James Hong, who has appeared in films and television shows since the 1950s:

Edited February 25, 2017 by VCRTracking

[xaxat]

From an article published last year. “Ghost In The Shell” Producer Defends Casting Scarlett Johansson In Adaptation Of Manga Series"

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“I don’t think it was just a Japanese story. Ghost in the Shell was a very international story, and it wasn’t just focused on Japanese; it was supposed to be an entire world,” he said. “That’s why I say the international approach is, I think, the right approach to it.”

The most recent trailer.

Robot geishas, yakuza style gangsters, tea houses, kanji signs. . . Clearly the director went out of his way to downplay the Japanese origins of the story. [/sarcasm]

But seriously, that's some bullshit. Everything can be Japanese influenced except the lead.

[topanga]

57 minutes ago, xaxat said:

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“I don’t think it was just a Japanese story. Ghost in the Shell was a very international story, and it wasn’t just focused on Japanese; it was supposed to be an entire world,” he said. “That’s why I say the international approach is, I think, the right approach to it.”

Robot geishas, yakuza style gangsters, tea houses, kanji signs. . . Clearly the director went out of his way to downplay the Japanese origins of the story. [/sarcasm]

But seriously, that's some bullshit. Everything can be Japanese influenced except the lead.

I know, right? Do the people who say these things really believe it, or they just trying to bullshit us? 

It's like when people said it didn't matter that the movie version Katniss Everdeen was white and didn't have the olive skin the Hunger Games book described, but some of these same people went bat-shit crazy when Rue was black in the movie, even though she was described as having dark brown skin in the novel. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by topanga