Super Social Analysis: Gender, Race, Ethnicity, and LGBT in Movies

[xaxat]

I don't know if this is still the case, but one thing revealed in the Sony email hack is that fact that their contract with Marvel prohibited them from casting a POC as Spiderman. 

[Raja]

I can understand why the studio would be reluctant to look at actors of color to play Peter Parker, but that doesn't preclude them hiring an actor of color to play Miles Morales, who was also Spider-Man.

The problem becomes people like me. I have seen 5 Spider-Man movies, seen an unknown amount of episodes of animated and live action TV series, had maybe hundreds of comics with the character and until recently I never heard of Miles Morales. If you want a person of color star just to have a person of color star I would just assume staying with Peter Parker, the star character, like the Fantastic Four producers did with Johnny Storm instead of bringing in a replacement body and character for the suit.

[ribboninthesky1]

I don't know if this is still the case, but one thing revealed in the Sony email hack is that fact that their contract with Marvel prohibited them from casting a POC as Spiderman. 

 

Interesting - were there any more details revealed from that? To have that be in the contract is certainly...meticulous.  To state the least. 

[xaxat]

Spider-Man Needs to Be White and Straight, Say Leaked Sony Emails

 

 

Peter Parker and his alter ego Spider-Man must be heterosexual and Parker must be Caucasian, according to a legal licensing agreement between Sony Pictures Entertainment and Marvel Entertainment.

[JBC344]

 

Because that would go over really well from a total stranger and not be creepy and inappropriate at all.

 

 

So let's say you're correct and that the internet trolls are serious-minded, and that not only are they serious-minded, but that the answer is always that the screaming Mimis aren't just looking for cheap thrills but are influencing the studio execs not to hire POC. What's the next logical step from that? That even if someone has no conscious negative feelings about POC, if they should happen to go see a movie where no minorities have been cast, they're prejudiced? If nothing is innocuous, if we must look at everything in the worst possible light, then it not only stops being a discussion, there's no chance it can ever be a discussion, which is supposedly the goal.

Actually I don't know that the "internet trolls" are in fact influencing the studio.  Quite honestly we could be talking about two different factions of the same issue.  The studio system may shy away from casting a POC because of their own views of box office, money, or idea of minority actors in lead roles.

 

I'm not fully understanding your question of "That even if someone has no conscious negative feelings about POC, if they should happen to go see a movie where no minorities have been cast, they're prejudiced? If nothing is innocuous, if we must look at everything in the worst possible light, then it not only stops being a discussion, there's no chance it can ever be a discussion, which is supposedly the goal."

 

I don't believe that I accused anyone of being prejudiced, least of which the general public for seeing a movie with a historically white Spiderman and enjoying it.

 

Maybe I can explain my position a little better.  When it comes to the Spiderman / Donald Glover issue.  Just to give a little backstory.  The whole reason that there was a push for Donald, and personally myself to hopefully get in the door to audition for Spiderman was because SONY themselves in order to garner support for the new reboot put the following statements out there.  That they were rebooting Spiderman so soon because they wanted, TO DO SOMETHING NEW, SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM THE TOBEY MAGUIRE VERSION, MAKE IT MORE MODERN.  That is what lead to the whole idea of "well if Sony is really pushing for something different here maybe they just might open up the casting to POC.

 

It is also why the push was not "DONALD GLOVER NEEDS TO BE SPIDERMAN OR YOUR RACIST".  The push was "HEY IF SONY IS GOING IN A NEW DIRECTION, DONALD SHOULD AUDITION I THINK HE WOULD MAKE A GREAT SPIDERMAN."

 

Now personally I am not delusional. I am probably not a big enough celebrity to get in the door at Sony to audition back then.  But I don't think it so far fetched to wonder if the casting would have been opened up for that particular reboot based on the comments made by Sony themselves.

[cynic]

 

Has the word "exotic" become a racist slur, and if so, have I been accidentally offending people by using it all these years to describe something I actually thought of as beautiful?

The implication is that the person isn't beautiful in the normal way, but only beautiful in a different (and even strange way). It's like a qualifier. It's like saying, "Well, obviously that leggy, blonde is BEAUTIFUL BEAUTIFUL, but you're beautiful too, in an exotic way. I have friends who actually use "blonde and blue-eyed" almost as a synonym for beautiful. They'll tell me that they think someone is pretty and I'll say, "you do?" and they'll say, "yeah, she has natural blonde hair and blue eyes", as if it's then a given that she's beautiful. If I say I think someone that is non-caucasian is  pretty, they'll be like "well, sure, in an exotic way", as if to be truly pretty, a person has to be blonde. It really hit home for me once when I mentioned that I was feeling unattractive one day. My friend goes, "You shouldn't feel that way. I'm sure plenty of guys find you attractive....the ones that are into exotic looks". (I'm biracial.) Cuz of course everyone finds blondes beautiful. They're the All American standard, nevermind that other races have been here just as long and even longer. Anyway, it's  basically saying "You're pretty...for your race",  which I've actually gotten more than once in my life - "You're pretty...for a black girl." Ugh. You're unnecessarily injecting that person's race into your compliment. Just call them beautiful if that's what you mean. 

 

Think about it this way. It's like someone commented that one of your friends was really smart and then looked at you and goes, "Well, of course you're smart too....in your own way."

[Kel Varnsen]

The problem becomes people like me. I have seen 5 Spider-Man movies, seen an unknown amount of episodes of animated and live action TV series, had maybe hundreds of comics with the character and until recently I never heard of Miles Morales. If you want a person of color star just to have a person of color star I would just assume staying with Peter Parker, the star character, like the Fantastic Four producers did with Johnny Storm instead of bringing in a replacement body and character for the suit.

Yea I can see Peter Parker being cast as a different race, but I can't see a Miles Morales led Spiderman movie happening for a long time. Mostly because if a studio is going to drop $300 million plus on a comic book movie they are going to want to make sure it is a character people are familiar with (yes I know there are exceptions to this rule, but they are relatively rare). And Peter Parker is probably the closest thing to a household name in all of Marvel Comics. Now sure Miles Morales has been established as well in the comics, but as a commentator somewhere else said, so was Peter Porker, but I don't think that would justify Sony making a Spider-Ham movie anytime soon. Especially if they have the rights to use the actual Peter Parker.

[galax-arena]

I thought there were rights issues re: Miles Morales anyway? I can't keep straight who owns what.

 

This is what I found via google/reddit:

Miles Morales is a unique character created after the sale of movie rights to Sony, so he wasn't included in the sale. But since Sony bought Spider-Man, Marvel cannot make a Spider-Man movie with or without that character.

[BoogieBurns]

I have honestly never met one person who called me exotic who either didn't a) turn out to have a creepy case of yellow fever or b) turn out to otherwise be ignorant as hell about Asian people. I have no patience with the former. My patience with the latter depends on whether I get the sense that they'll actually listen to me when I tell them that no, I don't think being called exotic is a compliment.

 

Saying someone looks exotic is the equivalent of calling food a delicacy, in my opinion. It sounds like you are saying "well, its good for the people far away, so I should appreciate it. But I maybe still find it odd." 

 

Having olive skin doesn't make me exotic. I'm from Austin. 

[ribboninthesky1]

For those who are interested, Kweli.tv (currently in beta) is sort of a Netflix for the black diaspora.  It seems to be mostly short films and docs (with some web series as well), but I like it because 1) it's very affordable - annual subscriptions are currently offered for $20 per year, and 2) I get the chance to see productions that will rarely, if ever, see the light of day in the mainstream.  I've watched a few so far, and I've really enjoyed the content. You can try it for 30 days free as well.       

Edited August 14, 2015 by ribboninthesky1

[BoogieBurns]

Edited August 15, 2015 by BoogieBurns

[Impish Dragon]

Having olive skin doesn't make me exotic. I'm from Austin. 

 

*snort*  I think you are forgetting one very important fact...Texas is a whole other country, so you are in fact "exotic".    ;)

 

 

[twoods]

Rashida Jones is gorgeous. No makeup on, just beautiful. That "ethnic" stuff is ridiculous in itself that it is freaking 2015 and people are not judging acting based on their skill set, but on looking right for the part. I thought we would be past skin tone and ethnicity, and just enjoy someone's acting. And there are so many interracial relationships in this country, yet we don't see much of it on screen (TV is much better at this).

[cynic]

So, they've cast Art3mis, the female lead for Ready Player One. She's described as looking pretty much the same as her avatar, who is described thusly:

 

"Her avatar had a pretty face, but it wasn’t unnaturally perfect...But Art3mis’s features didn’t look as though they’d been selected from a beauty drop-down menu on some avatar creation template.....Big hazel eyes, rounded cheekbones, a pointy chin, and a perpetual smirk.....Art3mis’s body was also somewhat unusual. In the OASIS, you usually saw one of two body shapes on female avatars: the absurdly thin yet wildly popular supermodel frame, or the top-heavy, wasp-waisted porn starlet physique (which looked even less natural in the OASIS than it did in the real world). But Art3mis’s frame was short and Rubenesque. All curves"

 

Her actual height and weight are stated as 5'7" and 168lbs. I really liked that she was more of an average body type and was hoping the movie was stay true to that. And while the actress could pull a Renee Zellwegger, I'm not going to hold my breath. Here's Olivia Cooke -

I can't wait to see what they do with Aech. :/

Edited September 13, 2015 by cynic

[VCRTracking]

Emily Blunt Explains Why the Same Women Are Always Rumored for the Same Action Roles

[xaxat]

Matt Damon Interrupts Successful Black Woman Filmmaker to Explain Diversity to Her

 

This comes during a discussion about a script where the only black character is a prostitute who gets slapped around by a white pimp. 

 

Ahh. .  that liberal Hollywood.

[blixie]

Yeah it was horribly awkward and all the more disappointing coming from Damon who is someone I'd think of as more enlightened about social justice. 

I think Matt's point (which I still think is BS) was something about how the diverse partnered directing duo were the only ones to not find the black prostitute character a concern (they had issues with Slut Shaming of the lead white woman), so just being a PoC/woman didn't mean it would yield more sensitivity to the portrayal of non-white and women characters, BUT his tone and manner with Effie interrupting her and lecturing her about merit and that FOTH diversity is the only real concern anyone should have was so wrong, and ignores all the research about intentionality and unconscious bias.

 

About the only thing I can think of him trying to do there was, in downplaying  them to win is that he's more than aware the show isn't particularly a boon to the career of the winner, and indeed may kind of do them damage in the industry so he was doing them a favor by not picking them, since they are mainly casting a reality show for maximum drama hence picking the pretentious super White possibly vampiric dude who has no interest in broad comedy, to direct a broad comedy.

[JBC344]

Matt Damon Interrupts Successful Black Woman Filmmaker to Explain Diversity to Her

 

This comes during a discussion about a script where the only black character is a prostitute who gets slapped around by a white pimp. 

 

Ahh. .  that liberal Hollywood.

Wow, that was incredibly weird.  I'm surprised at Matt.  I'm not sure if he was being defensive or what, but why couldn't he have taken her incredibly astute point and say he hadn't really thought of it that way and was possibly so concerned with diversity in other facets of the project.  He could of got his point across (which I think was BS) and also acknowledged her real world concern.

[xaxat]

blixie (or anyone else), have you seen the episode? If so could you explain why they chose that script and why anyone didn't realize that a black prostitute might be a little problematic?

[blixie]

 

If so could you explain why they chose that script and why anyone didn't realize that a black prostitute might be a little problematic?

 

I haven't watched the show before, but it seems like HBO funded the tv show this year so they basically said here's this shitty script we've had kicking around, we don't care this much about this one....like the fact that it isn't that great a script/idea is why they were even willing to let an unknown/neophite film maker direct it. It's even more funny because everyone seems to agree the writing is crappy, and The Writer is first winner of PG who now primarily works with and for the Farrelly's. They're acting like the Farrelly's are just mentoring and producing as a favor to Matt/Ben, but it seems like it's also a way to goose a project they wanted made for HBO. So there is very little organic about this "project" including the kind of questioning of sensitivity and representation you're talking about (not that that EVER happens in Hollywood,but just sayin' definitely not in this case).

[ribboninthesky1]

Matt Damon Interrupts Successful Black Woman Filmmaker to Explain Diversity to Her

 

This comes during a discussion about a script where the only black character is a prostitute who gets slapped around by a white pimp. 

 

Ahh. .  that liberal Hollywood.

 

Oh, ain't funny how his old pal George Clooney pulled a similar (yet different) move with Viola Davis, when she was explicitly asked for her opinion about being a black actress in Hollywood? I've expressed my general Damon dislike before, and this doesn't help his cause at all. I'm a bit punchy today because I've to deal with some similar bullshit at work over the past few days. Just...can you BE any more condescending, Matty?   

[Princess Sparkle]

Someone in the comments of the Jezebel article suggested that perhaps he watched the footage, realized he stuck his foot in his mouth, and let it air as an acknowledgment of that and to not bury it. Because, let's face it, it's his show and if he wanted this not to air, he could've buried it easily.

Every time I've seen him interviewed, he appears to be a smart and thoughtful guy, and this appears to be a situation where he clearly had some blinders on in regards to his privilege (which is a word I think can get tossed around too much, but I think is apt here). Unless he truly didn't see how badly he came off, but he doesn't seem that oblivious to me.

[ribboninthesky1]

If that were the case, I don't understand why he wouldn't have had some public statement at the ready, acknowledging his gaffe. I get that Damon is well-liked, so people want to give him the benefit of the doubt.  I can't say I'm one of those people.  I haven't come across anything on the web that suggests Damon made a preemptive statement, so until then, I think Occam's razor is in effect. 

 

ETA: 

Thinking on it further, when I reference public statement, I don't mean some elegantly worded treatise on his knapsack of privilege.  Something as simple as, "Yeah, I was wrong, and I made it right with Effie," would be concise and to the point.  

Edited September 15, 2015 by ribboninthesky1

[vibeology]

There's this workplace principle that says that incompetent people can't recognize that they're incompetent because that would require them to have the skills they are missing. I think privilege is often the same way. You can't see the privilege because you're too in it and you would need to have it pointed out by someone outside before it became apparent. Matt let that air because he didn't get that he said anything wrong; that may have changed now as the internet takes him to task.

[ChelseaNH]

Wondering how much of this is racism and how much is mansplaining.  Either way, it's privilege in action.

[Bruinsfan]

I never hear Lynn Collins or Jaime Alexander speculated about for action roles, but both have proven that they do them well.

[Trini]

So, Pixar/Disney is making a Day of the Dead film, and 'Disney Critic Lalo Alcaraz Hired to Work on Pixar’s ‘Coco’':

 

Some of his Twitter followers initially assumed that Alcaraz, a respected voice on political and cultural issues related to Mexican-Americans, was joking — and for good reason. A couple years ago, when the Walt Disney Company tried to trademark the Mexican Day of the Dead holiday, there was mass outrage from the Latino community, and Alcaraz was at the forefront, ....

Alcaraz hinted that Disney/Pixar hired him on Coco as something akin to a cultural watchdog, to ensure that the studio gets it right when dealing with Mexican culture ....

[Bruinsfan]

Didn't someone just make an animated film on that subject a year or two ago?

[Trini]

Yep. The Book of Life, directed by Jorge Gutierrez.

[Rick Kitchen]

Stonewall director Roland Emmerich is under criticism for inventing a white gay male character to portray the first person to throw a brick in the Stonewall Riots, instead of basing the scene around the real-life first person to throw a brick, a trans woman of color.  When called out for his decision, his response was, “As a director you have to put yourself in your movies, and I’m white and gay.”

[methodwriter85]

Jeremy Irvine is cute as hell, but I'm not supporting that kind of shit.

[JBC344]

Stonewall director Roland Emmerich is under criticism for inventing a white gay male character to portray the first person to throw a brick in the Stonewall Riots, instead of basing the scene around the real-life first person to throw a brick, a trans woman of color.  When called out for his decision, his response was, “As a director you have to put yourself in your movies, and I’m white and gay.”

What the hell?  I have never heard a director say that.  What the hell does that even mean?  Just goes to show you, being apart of one minority group does not make you sympathetic to another. 

 

I actually don't have a problem with the main character being white, since Stonewall wasn't a predominant place for people of color, but that particular answer just baffles me.

[raezen]

“As a director you have to put yourself in your movies, and I’m white and gay.”[/url]

Right because Steven Spielberg's The Color Purple was a fail, and Ang Lee's Brokeback Mountain.

Except that they weren't because these men used creativity and empathy to bring those stories to life.

[Rick Kitchen]

What the hell?  I have never heard a director say that.  What the hell does that even mean?  Just goes to show you, being apart of one minority group does not make you sympathetic to another. 

 

I actually don't have a problem with the main character being white, since Stonewall wasn't a predominant place for people of color, but that particular answer just baffles me.

 

There was a significant minority presence - http://thegrio.com/2012/06/27/minorities-role-in-stonewall-riots-examined/

[JBC344]

There was a significant minority presence - http://thegrio.com/2012/06/27/minorities-role-in-stonewall-riots-examined/

Thanks for that information.  Unfortunately it was the first time I have read that. 

[raezen]

Just found this article about the casting couch in Hollywood and it is kind of depressing. Really Hollywood? Still!?!

http://www.gadgette.com/2015/09/28/saying-nothing-how-ive-had-to-grit-my-teeth-to-be-a-female-filmmaker/

Fixed it!

Edited September 29, 2015 by raezen

[Joe]

Link is broken. But yes, I'm somewhat surprised and sad that it's still happening.

[greenbean]

It's sad that it stills goes on. I remember the long standing insinuations about Gretchen Mol and Weinstein.

Edited October 6, 2015 by greenbean

[UYI]

You know, I had forgotten until last week that this thread existed. I had posted about Meryl Streep saying she's a humanist (NO) instead of a feminist in the Everything Else TV threads, but it really belonged here.

 

This is brand new, though.

 

Ashley Judd reveals that she was sexually harassed by a male movie mogul while filming Kiss the Girls in the late 90's:

 

http://variety.com/2015/film/news/ashley-judd-sexual-harassment-studio-mogul-shower-1201610666/

[AimingforYoko]

Meryl Streep has some thoughts about Rotten Tomatoes.

[Trini]

'First image and leading voice of Disney Animation's Moana'

 

I like the designs, but man, they couldn't break away from the 'standard Disney princess face'. There are slight variations (which I do appreciate), but she basically looks like a dark-skinned Rapunzel.

[ribboninthesky1]

I see her point, and it's one of the primary reasons I pay little attention to such sites and film critics in general.  

[UYI]

An interesting article on the so-called "Cool Girl" by Anne Helen Petersen (It's actually a year and a half old, but it's the first time I've ever read it):

 

http://www.buzzfeed.com/annehelenpetersen/jennifer-lawrence-and-the-history-of-cool-girls#.mjLx31pgb

 

ETA: I don't agree so much with Jane Fonda being compared to Jennifer Lawrence in this context, though. Jane Fonda was talking about why she against the Vietnam War and equal rights for women. Jennifer Lawrence talks about farting and peeing in public bathroom sinks. Big difference.

 

(And sadly, no, I'm not making that last part up, she said it herself in a recent EW interview. That's not funny; that's just VILE.)

Edited October 8, 2015 by UYI

[BatmanBeatles]

I remember when people said Jasmine looked like Arial with dark skin.

[UYI]

Two more AHP articles on Anne Hathaway and Anna Kendrick, respectively, and their public images. Disclaimer: Unlike AHP, I actually like Anne Hathaway and think she comes across better than JL does, but it's still an interesting read.

 

http://www.buzzfeed.com/annehelenpetersen/anne-hathaway-syndrome#.ptM5eo7jY

 

http://www.buzzfeed.com/annehelenpetersen/anna-kendrick-vs-hollywood#.il4gQMZ56

[Julia]

Wow. That Anne Hathaway article. On what planet is Taylor Swift the more tolerable choice because she's not making a visible effort to be a cool kid? 

[galax-arena]

Wow. That Anne Hathaway article. On what planet is Taylor Swift the more tolerable choice because she's not making a visible effort to be a cool kid? 

And on what planet is Taylor Swift not making a visible effort, anyway? Her whole #squad thing is so OTT that even some of her fans have been making fun of her.

[Julia]

And on what planet is Taylor Swift not making a visible effort, anyway? Her whole #squad thing is so OTT that even some of her fans have been making fun of her.

 

Seriously. I am such a feminist now! See me with my A-list woman friends! They have come to bond with me while I sing about what skank whores my boyfriends left for me / left me for!

Edited October 9, 2015 by Julia

[UYI]

If you guys go the Music forum and look at the Taylor Swift thread I created sometime back, I was JUST talking about some of this stuff. I agree. Anne Hathaway does NOT strike me as what I call a Triflin' Tryhard (TM Me) like JL and TS often do.

[Janet Snakehole]

I actually don't have a huge problem with Anne, Taylor, or Jlaw. I see how they all might be trying hard in some way or another, but I don't quite understand the criticism for this. They aren't independent artists just for the sole purpose of doing it for the craft, they are celebrities. Their job is to be celebrated. Of course they will try hard to be liked. I think anyone who thinks any celebrity is not trying hard in some way to be liked is kidding themselves.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Janet Snakehole