Super Social Analysis: Gender, Race, Ethnicity, and LGBT in Movies

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Oh they definitely have protested Jordan's casting.  I'm assuming you haven't seen those racist viewpoints spread around.  Jordan himself made a public statement about it, and the director has made statements defending his decision.

 

The problem with the whole "source material" debate is that if said "source material" is from an era where "people of color" weren't written/celebrated/acknowledged than how can you realistically ever have POC characters?  Hell if we used old history books as "source material" all we would know about Black people is that we picked cotton.

 

I've never had an issue with changing a character if said character's "race/gender/sexuality" isn't a specific character trait, in order to promote more diversity in our entertainment.  Hell, people went absolutely nuts when a lot of people (myself included) petitioned for Donald Glover to be considered for the Spiderman reboot (the Andrew Garfield one).  Even though Peter Parker being white is not something that is intrinsic to the character.  The only qualification is that he is nerdy.

 

Then you have a case like X-Men which is based on the civil rights movement, with Professor X and Magneto being based on MLK and Malcolm X.  Can you imagine the outcry if Black actors had been cast for those roles despite the fact that the characters that inspire so much love and devotion are based on Black men to begin with?

 

I've said this before and I continue to make this point that when it comes to imagination and letting go.  Some people can go their and enjoy these fantastical elements (dragons, wizards, superheroes) but the one thing that keeps pulling them out is race.  Really?  You can believe enough in this world that a man with powers can become a literal flame but the fact that he is played by a black man is what you can't believe?

 

You may absolutely assume that I haven't seen those comments. I don't play around on Twitter or other places, that much, because I'm one of those Luddites who enjoys actual discussion rather than a hundred voices bellowing into the ether simultaneously. And I never read youtube comments, because youtube is full to bursting with trolls. So I know the crazies are out there, I'm just real selective about how much attention I give them.

 

As for Magneto and Professor X, I guess it depends on which "they" you're talking about, because I would imagine that there are those who would protest just as loudly for different reasons if the near-genocidal Magneto was cast with a black actor. One of the character's goals was to either assimilate humanity so that everyone was a mutant, or exterminate it so that the mutants could rule the world. To make a pre-emptive strike and use Rogue to do it. Now imagine Chiwetel Ejiofor being cast in the part. Twitter would catch on fire, and it wouldn't necessarily be the "You can't cast a POC!" crowd stacking the kindling. If we're going to drag one side of the lunacy into the equation, we have to drag the other side into it as well. Its either just a movie role or it isn't, and apparently sometimes it isn't.

 

Further, I think my point about the source material still stands. I'm not talking about real history, or even the "real" history you see in biopics like Walk The Line and Get On Up. Despite the occasional kerfuffle about the Confederate flag, I would think that most people are aware that the Antebellum south no longer exists. Idiocy is something that can't be accounted for, of course, but beyond that reality is what it is. Yes, there are stupid people out there, but not everyone is stupid.

 

Finally, since this is about fantasy and other things, serious question - would you be okay with a black Edward Cullen? Christian Grey? Amy Dunne from Gone Girl? Because the implication always seems to be that numbers are the most important thing, the amount of roles that are available for POC. In which case, the stalkerish Edward, borderline abusive Christian, and murderous, psychotic Amy could completely be minority characters, and it wouldn't hurt anything. Unless there'd be racial implications there too.

[Raja]

It would be nice to have romantic leads of different races. I can't think of any in recent memory (but I will admit that I haven't seen a ton of movies).

Come to think of it I can't think of a romantic comedy that was that way and not a mixed race actor who can pass for another race but in dramas it is common, even James Bond from way back. Today you can have a Zoe Saldana playing a Latina and not a non Hispanic African American often linked I was thinking how far we have moved from the biggest taboo when I was seeing big posters of Will Smith and the young blond in Focus. For the past twenty years or so we have Denzel Washington representing an older generation thinking it is important that a "successful" Black man being seen with a Black women but when his character is morally bent like the alcoholic pilot in Flight or the dirty cop in Training Day his onscreen girlfriends are light skinned.

[topanga]

You may absolutely assume that I haven't seen those comments. I don't play around on Twitter or other places, that much, because I'm one of those Luddites who enjoys actual discussion rather than a hundred voices bellowing into the ether simultaneously. And I never read youtube comments, because youtube is full to bursting with trolls. So I know the crazies are out there, I'm just real selective about how much attention I give them.

If you really don't want to see the most racist, hateful, and ignorant statements imaginable, then continue to avoid Internet comments. I used to think people were joking when they posted things like, "Why do I have to look at Jungel [sic] bunnies in my superhero movie?" or "White devils made all of these movies," but there are far, far too many comments like these for it to be a joke. And it's sad, really because these are mostly young people ('young' meaning under 60) posting, which means that this thought pattern is present amongst the next generation of political leaders, teachers, and CEOs.

 

 

Today you can have a Zoe Saldana playing a Latina and not a non Hispanic African American often linked I was thinking how far we have moved from the biggest taboo when I was seeing big posters of Will Smith and the young blond in Focus. For the past twenty years or so we have Denzel Washington representing an older generation thinking it is important that a "successful" Black man being seen with a Black women but when his character is morally bent like the alcoholic pilot in Flight or the dirty cop in Training Day his onscreen girlfriends are light skinned.

Denzel Washington uses whatever influence he has in Hollywood to include as many young black actors and actresses as possible in his movies. I didn't realize this until I started listening to the podcast "Denzel Washington is the Greatest Actor of All Time, Period." I don't think he only wants black actors in his movies. It's more an issue of there being a dearth of quality movie roles for black actors , especially black actresses.   Here's the link to the podcast: http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/denzel-washington-is-the-greatest

 

And the "light-skinned vs. dark-skinned actress" issue is a topic unto itself.

[Dejana]

Finally, since this is about fantasy and other things, serious question - would you be okay with a black Edward Cullen? Christian Grey? Amy Dunne from Gone Girl? Because the implication always seems to be that numbers are the most important thing, the amount of roles that are available for POC. In which case, the stalkerish Edward, borderline abusive Christian, and murderous, psychotic Amy could completely be minority characters, and it wouldn't hurt anything. Unless there'd be racial implications there too.

 

Some people do advocate more positive portrayals but others just want minorities to get more chances to be cast at leads, hero or villain. Back when Denzel and Halle won Oscars, there were complaints from some black commentators about Hollywood rewarding negative (and sexualized, in Halle's case) black stereotypes, and more than ten years later at the NAACP Awards, Red Tails won out over Django Unchained for the best film. On the other hand, Viola Davis has said of her morally gray TV character on How to Get Away With Murder that it's given her a range of material that she hasn't had the chance to tackle in movies. Noble and dignified may be uplifting to watch but can be boring for an actor to play.

 

I think if there's more balance or a mix of character types for minorities then there's less room for criticism. If Magneto and Professor X were both black, then it would blunt the objections about the villain being problematic. A black Edward obsessed with a white Bella probably would get slammed for playing into the worst fears of racists, but if he were Asian and she were black, that just might have been praised as a refreshing change of pace. With Gone Girl, I think race actually is relevant to the story, in the sense that it's very much a commentary on the Missing White Woman phenomenon, and Nick is pretty much a fictionalized Scott Peterson.

 

 

Come to think of it I can't think of a romantic comedy that was that way and not a mixed race actor who can pass for another race but in dramas it is common, even James Bond from way back. Today you can have a Zoe Saldana playing a Latina and not a non Hispanic African American often linked I was thinking how far we have moved from the biggest taboo when I was seeing big posters of Will Smith and the young blond in Focus. For the past twenty years or so we have Denzel Washington representing an older generation thinking it is important that a "successful" Black man being seen with a Black women but when his character is morally bent like the alcoholic pilot in Flight or the dirty cop in Training Day his onscreen girlfriends are light skinned.

 

Hitch was ten years ago but it starred Will Smith and Eva Mendes, and even that was a studio compromise of sorts:

 

“There’s sort of an accepted myth that if you have two black actors, a male and a female, in the lead of a romantic comedy, that people around the world don’t want to see it,” Smith told the British paper, the Birmingham Post while promoting the flick overseas. “We spend $50-something million making this movie and the studio would think that was tough on their investment. So the idea of a black actor and a white actress comes up — that’ll work around the world, but it’s a problem in the U.S.”

 

Eva Mendes — who is of Cuban descent — was seen as a solution because apparently, the black/Latina combination is not considered taboo.

 

Sony didn't return calls for comment.

 

The mainstream rom-com has been in the doldrums for the past few years so I think studios aren't going to be too high on interracial romances in the genre any time soon. Aloha saying Emma Stone is part-Chinese and Hawaiian but just doesn't look it, doesn't exactly count...

Edited June 24, 2015 by Dejana

[blixie]

I love Something New (srsly it is one of my all time favorite romances), which I consider to be a romantic comedy, and that starred Sanaa Lathan in the lead opposite Simon Baker and Blair Underwood as her love interests, and there was also Sanaa Hamri's other rom-com Just Wright with Latifah and Common in the lead roles.

 

 

With Gone Girl, I think race actually is relevant to the story, in the sense that it's very much a commentary on the Missing White Woman phenomenon, and Nick is pretty much a fictionalized Scott Peterson.

 

That's a good point, and one I've made myself that it's commentary on very specific set of people young white writers feeling displaced in the economy. But for the most part I think there are lot of roles that could be cast w/o regard to a particular race, though I think real representation requires that stories be written with characters that have a specificity.

 

In general be it women's roles or race in Hollywood I think more is always the first step, you have to get to more before you can get to better. Like are Adam Sandler comedies great roles for white men? Fuck no, and I would say a great amount of mainstream movies are shitty movies with shitty characters, so why can't more of those characters be played by women and PoC actors?

Edited June 24, 2015 by blixie

[JBC344]

 

You may absolutely assume that I haven't seen those comments. I don't play around on Twitter or other places, that much, because I'm one of those Luddites who enjoys actual discussion rather than a hundred voices bellowing into the ether simultaneously. And I never read youtube comments, because youtube is full to bursting with trolls. So I know the crazies are out there, I'm just real selective about how much attention I give them.

 

As for Magneto and Professor X, I guess it depends on which "they" you're talking about, because I would imagine that there are those who would protest just as loudly for different reasons if the near-genocidal Magneto was cast with a black actor. One of the character's goals was to either assimilate humanity so that everyone was a mutant, or exterminate it so that the mutants could rule the world. To make a pre-emptive strike and use Rogue to do it. Now imagine Chiwetel Ejiofor being cast in the part. Twitter would catch on fire, and it wouldn't necessarily be the "You can't cast a POC!" crowd stacking the kindling. If we're going to drag one side of the lunacy into the equation, we have to drag the other side into it as well. Its either just a movie role or it isn't, and apparently sometimes it isn't.

 

Further, I think my point about the source material still stands. I'm not talking about real history, or even the "real" history you see in biopics like Walk The Line and Get On Up. Despite the occasional kerfuffle about the Confederate flag, I would think that most people are aware that the Antebellum south no longer exists. Idiocy is something that can't be accounted for, of course, but beyond that reality is what it is. Yes, there are stupid people out there, but not everyone is stupid.

 

Finally, since this is about fantasy and other things, serious question - would you be okay with a black Edward Cullen? Christian Grey? Amy Dunne from Gone Girl? Because the implication always seems to be that numbers are the most important thing, the amount of roles that are available for POC. In which case, the stalkerish Edward, borderline abusive Christian, and murderous, psychotic Amy could completely be minority characters, and it wouldn't hurt anything. Unless there'd be racial implications there too.

I think that is the point I was trying to make in that "we" like to believe that it is just internet trolls, or people being stupid online, but when said actor and director are making public statements and writing op-ed pieces to me that makes a statement about how much those "opinions/statements/viewpoints" are crossing over. 

 

As far as "source material" I used real history as an example but my point was if that you are developing content from an era that was skewed than how can your results ever reflect diversity or general updates in society.  Mainly if you are taking source material from an era where 99% of comic book characters where white, then everything you produce will reflect that.

 

It is a double edged sword.  Studios seem to be only interested in developing comics that have a long history/fan base/name recognition etc.  By doing that you end up pulling from a very specific time in history where diversity was not celebrated.  In order to get around that and update it to "modern times" they try to change the characters in different ways; gender/race/personality.

 

Like I mentioned earlier, for me I don't have a problem if race/gender/sexuality aren't important character traits.  For example, the only characteristics that are intrinsic to Peter Parker (Spiderman) are that he is male, nerdy, awkward, and playful.  To me, that is a character that any ethnicity can play. Now some would counter my position with "He has always been played/drawn/written as a white kid before" (I'm discounting Miles in this scenario)  My response would be.  "Yes, that is true, but that is because Spiderman came from a time period where you didn't write POC as leads, or it was an extreme rarity.  So of course the character by default would be white then.  We no longer live in those times."

[topanga]

 

I agree with the Tom Hanks comments but what is funny is that Sally Field has been used as the prime example for the opposition.  The fact that she played Tom's love interest in "Punchline" (?), and then a few years later played his mother in Forest Gump.  Hell, even Amy Schumer used Field as a reference point in her famous skit on when Hollywood labels you too old and non desirable.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=XPpsI8mWKmg

J.Lo as Mrs. Claus. Bwah!

 

Hilarious. Some might find the language a little crude, but it's Amy Schumer, so I expected a few f-bombs.

[BetterButter]

Rose McGowan Says Agent Dropped Her for Criticizing Adam Sandler Film Role

[Wiendish Fitch]

I posted this in the Actors You Just Can't Stand thread:

 

I confess I dislike John C. Reilly for horrible, shallow reasons. I know he's considered a darn good actor and an all-around nice fella, but to me not only is he utterly unattractive, he represents every unfair, sexist double standard in Hollywood. And I know it's not his fault, I know he didn't make it that way, but think about it: if Reilly were a woman, do you think he'd have anything resembling a career? It's bad enough that so many talented actresses don't get jobs because they're not considered pretty, but Reilly, who looks like a pork rind with hair, gets important, sometimes lead parts in movies (goofy comedies, but still), is always busy, and even "gets the girl" in some movies. Adding insult to injury, he's even played Stanley Kowalski in a production A Streetcar Named Desire. The hell? John C. Reilly as Stanley Kowalski? Stanley Kowalski, who is tall, muscular, feral, ruggedly handsome, repellant but also charismatic, sexy but dangerous? A role originated by young, handsome, pre-obesity Marlon Brando? A role that's also been inhabited by the likes of Anthony Quinn, Blair Underwood, Aidan Quinn, Gary Sinise, and Alec Baldwin? And now he's being by short, dumpy Reilly?

Again, what. The. Hell?

Reilly should be playing Mitch, not Stanley! Though, come to think of it, Karl Malden could actually give Reilly a run for his money in the looks department, but you didn't see him headlining movies and getting a love interest miles out of his league, did you? Hell, going further back in the day, Bob Hope (who was also a matinee idol compared to Reilly) almost never got the girl in the end! Or if he did, it was treated as a joke! In Guardians of the Galaxy, Reilly is playing a general (or something), and his tubby gut was hanging over his pants, and I'm thinking, Zoe Saldana probably sweated hours in the gym each day and lived on water and celery sticks, and John C. Reilly didn't see fit to do a few sit-ups or put on some damn man-Spanx to play a strict space general?

Look, I know I should be glad that the old status quo got shaken up, that leading men in Hollywood don't all have to be tall, dark and handsome to headline a movie, but why hasn't that courtesy been extended to women? I've read Jennifer Lawrence, Anna Kendrick, Tina Fey, and Beyonce all make self-deprecating remarks about their looks, while Reilly probably looks in the mirror each day and thinks, Yup, this is good!

 

 

harrie then replied thusly:

 

He might - an actress like Kathy Bates does okay.  And just my personal opinion, but for me Anthony Quinn is high on the ugly/sexy scale, with Alec Baldwin a lot lower down, but still on the scale.

I like the Malden/Reilly comparison and pretty much agree with you there.  Malden did headline a TV show (over semi-hunky at the time Michael Douglas), for what that's worth.

I agree with you, and would give some bodily part to look like Anna Kendrick or Jennifer Lawrence on her worst day.  I don't have any way of knowing this, but I think John C. Reilly might know exactly what he looks like; but to paraphrase Elizabeth Taylor, if they're foolish enough to offer him the lead, who is he to turn it down?

 

 

I had to get my irrational dislike off my chest. I think I dislike John C. Reilly more for what he represents than who he is which is... irrational of me, so there ya go.

 

And, no, I never found Anthony Quinn at any time of his life attractive, but he's certainly more believable as Stanley, he fits the type (Jack Palance also played Stanley at one time). Reilly does not fit the type in any way, shape or form. 

 

Yes, I'm grateful that Kathy Bates has had a good, long career, but when does she ever "get the guy"? She was married in Fried Green Tomatoes, but that was a marriage that had long gone stale. And who can forget how disgusted we were supposed to be when she made a pass at (older, fatter) Jack Nicholson in About Schmidt? See what I mean? Melissa McCartney's star is still bright, but how often does she get the guy? Let's face it, for every Hairspray, there's a dozen or more Shallow Hal's, where the scenario is "ha, ha, he got with the fat chick, that's hilarious!". I know The D.U.F.F.* tried to rectify this, but I heard it was dragged down by its own good intentions (if anyone has seen it, please share your thoughts).

 

*For the record, no, I do not think Mae Whitman is even remotely overweight or unattractive. I'm not sure how the casting of that movie worked, but I just had to put that out there.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Wiendish Fitch

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I think I dislike John C. Reilly more for what he represents than who he is which is... irrational of me, so there ya go.

 

And, no, I never found Anthony Quinn at any time of his life attractive, but he's certainly more believable as Stanley, he fits the type (Jack Palance also played Stanley at one time). Reilly does not fit the type in any way, shape or form. 

 

Yes, I'm grateful that Kathy Bates has had a good, long career, but when does she ever "get the guy"? She was married in Fried Green Tomatoes, but that was a marriage that had long gone stale. And who can forget how disgusted we were supposed to be when she made a pass at (older, fatter) Jack Nicholson in About Schmidt? See what I mean? Melissa McCartney's star is still bright, but how often does she get the guy? Let's face it, for every Hairspray, there's a dozen or more Shallow Hal's, where the scenario is "ha, ha, he got with the fat chick, that's hilarious!". I know The D.U.F.F.* tried to rectify this, but I heard it was dragged down by its own good intentions (if anyone has seen it, please share your thoughts).

 

*For the record, no, I do not think Mae Whitman is even remotely overweight or unattractive. I'm not sure how the casting of that movie worked, but I just had to put that out there.

 

While I admire your candor, Wiendish Fitch, since I don't think that much of Reilly's looks either, I will venture to say that if anyone called Kathy Bates a "pork rind with hair," it'd be called being....I don't know what it's called when you discriminate based on looks, but that. :-)

 

Further, I mentioned this in another thread, but when Liz Taylor won her second Oscar in 1967, it was for playing loud, drunken Martha opposite Richard Burton's bitter, fed up George. That they likely loved one another anyway, regardless of whatever hell they put each other through, is not the point, and considering the real life aspects of the Burton-Taylor marriages, some of those scenes were probably very familiar territory for them. But esthetically, Liz's Martha wasn't all that appealing, and to say that her personality was like sandpaper on sunburn is possibly an understatement. That George was no peach either just means that they really did belong together, if only so the toxicity could be contained. YMMV.

[methodwriter85]

*For the record, no, I do not think Mae Whitman is even remotely overweight or unattractive. I'm not sure how the casting of that movie worked, but I just had to put that out there.

The idea isn't that Mae Whitman's character is fat or unattractive, just that she's fat and unattractive in comparison to her super-hot friends.

[Rick Kitchen]

The cast of the new Ghostbusters movie visited the kids at Tufts Medical Center and the anti-female sentiment over the remake spilled all over Tufts's social media pages.

[Spartan Girl]

Seriously?! They do a nice thing for sick kids and STILL they get this sexist crap?! Fuck the haters...

I saw the Straw Dogs remake on TV and I really hate how the movie implicitly justifies James Marsden's wife getting gang raped by those guys, including her ex, by showing her undressing in front of them in an earlier scene. Like even though the rape was wrong, the character was giving off the "she was asking for it" shit since she was flirting with her ex or had unresolved feelings behind her husband's back. Ugh. Just...ugh.

[Epeolatrix]

It's a deliberate improvement on the original, in that regard.

[Spartan Girl]

It's a deliberate improvement on the original, in that regard.

Could you elaborate on how that's an improvement?

[Epeolatrix]

I found a good article that discusses the differences between versions, and it explains it better than I can, but the short version is "greater ambiguity in the original".

[Spartan Girl]

Interesting article, but I still found it off-putting that the only two lead females in that movie were portrayed as slutty.

But that might just stem from my overall dislike of Kate Bosworth. I hate how she portrayed Lois Lane in Superman Returns as yet another whiny superhero love interest (who passes off her son as someone else's, I might add). So I'm in the minority that loved Amy Adams' Lois in Man of Steel because I feel her version was more true to the kickass no nonsense reporter the character was supposed to be.

[Trini]

So I'm in the minority that loved Amy Adams' Lois in Man of Steel because I feel her version was more true to the kickass no nonsense reporter the character was supposed to be.

 

Is that really a minority opinion? Adams' Lois was one of the best (if not THE best) versions of the character so far.

[ribboninthesky1]

I'm hesitant to compare Margot Kidder to Amy Adams because we've seen Amy in only one film.  That said, despite the writing, Kidder just brings an edge to Lane that I always appreciated.  But Adams' Lane is sooooo much better than Bosworth's, no contest. 

 

My minority opinion might be that Man of Steel did a better job with all of the female characters than any individual film in the Marvel cinematic universe so far. Not sure who had influence in the casting, and I thought Amy Adams, Diane Lane, Ayelet Zurer, and Antje Traue each brought something unique and memorable to their roles, for me at least. It'll be interesting to see how Wonder Woman is handled.  

[AimingforYoko]

Seriously?! They do a nice thing for sick kids and STILL they get this sexist crap?! Fuck the haters...

I saw the Straw Dogs remake on TV and I really hate how the movie implicitly justifies James Marsden's wife getting gang raped by those guys, including her ex, by showing her undressing in front of them in an earlier scene. Like even though the rape was wrong, the character was giving off the "she was asking for it" shit since she was flirting with her ex or had unresolved feelings behind her husband's back. Ugh. Just...ugh.

I wouldn't watch the original then, the remake kind of cleaned it up. There it was less "she was asking for it" and more "she was into it."

[Spartan Girl]

I wouldn't watch the original then, the remake kind of cleaned it up. There it was less "she was asking for it" and more "she was into it."

Which is kind of the same message, if you think about it. Either way it was rape justification. Ugh.

[VCRTracking]

There's also a moment involving two other characters which is a deliberate ripoff of a scene from Of Mice and Men involving a big dumb simpleton and a slutty young girl, where she comes on to him in private and he accidentally breaks her neck, which initiates the third act.

[Spartan Girl]

There's also a moment involving two other characters which is a deliberate ripoff of a scene from Of Mice and Men involving a big dumb simpleton and a slutty young girl, where she comes on to him in private and he accidentally breaks her neck, which initiates the third act.

Yes and I despise that trope of women being so desperate they'll make sexual advances on a mentally impaired man.

[galax-arena]

1. New Stonewall movie getting backlash for whitewashing LGBT history.

Though the film is billed as a “true story”, it appears to be told from the POV of fictionalized Danny Winters (up-and-comer Jeremy Irvine), a home-brewed townie who is kicked out of his home and flees to NYC to find acceptance. In reality, Stonewall was kickstarted by black trans drag queen Marsha P. Johnson, who tossed the first brick. The trailer appears to change that narrative, as Danny slings the first stone which triggers the riot.

 

Sure, Marsha P. Johnson is listed in the film’s credits on IMDb, but other key figures of the movement (Miss Major, trans WOC Sylvia Rivera) are nowhere to be found.

 

2. Bring It On: The Complete Oral History. I'm putting this link here because the part that stood out to me was when Gabrielle Union said that she only took on this role because the one she really wanted didn't want any black characters:

GABRIELLE UNION (Isis): There were a ton of teen movies at the time that I passed on that were not committed to getting it right. The reason why I even took the table read of “Cheer Fever” was because the cheerleading movie I wanted about bank robbing [“Sugar and Spice”] – they didn’t want to go black on any of the characters. So it’s interesting, the group that didn’t want to commit to diversity didn’t seem to do well and the movie that was about righting the wrongs did well, and that included diversity. I remember at the table read my character being a combination of Foxy Brown and about eight other Blaxploitation characters sort of rolled into a cheer-lawyer-defender type person.

That's disappointing. I really liked Sugar and Spice, but this revelation kinda taints that movie for me. In retrospect, that movie was so white to begin with, having one black character wouldn't have broken the bank. Sheesh. But I guess TPTB disagreed. Oh well. Bring It On was better, anyway.

[Ohwell]

I saw a strange movie on Bounce TV last night called Slow Burn, which was filed in 2005 and released in 2007.  It starred Ray Liotta, Taye Diggs, LL Cool J and Chiwitel Ejiofor, among others.  The movie itself sucked but the most interesting character was the female lead.  What immediately struck me was that she looked exactly like a taller, somewhat thinner version of Rachel Dolezal, the woman passing herself off as black (not African American, per Rachel).  This woman in the movie was the same complexion and wore braids just like Rachel's.  (I think the actress, Jolene Blalock, is white.)  There was even a scene of her getting her hair braided in beauty shop.  I won't get into the stupid plot, but at one point she was screwing Mekai Pfifer.  He assumed that she was biracial; however, while he was at her place and she was in the shower, he was being nosy and thumbing through her family album and came across a photo of her and her clearly white parents.   Then at another point, Ray Liotta was in her office and saw plaques on the wall that showed she was active in an organization similar to the NAACP--I can't remember the name but it was clearly an African American organization.  There were also other plaques on the wall which would have led one to think that this was an African American woman's office.

 

So I'm wondering, did Rachel Dolezal see this movie and then set out to remake her persona?  All the while I was watching, it just felt so strange.  I told my brother about it today and he said that around 2007 was when her friends said she had started to change from being white to black.   If it ever comes on Bounce TV again, I would suggest watching it because it's just too much of a coincidence. 

 

http://www.fandango.com/movie-trailer/slowburn-trailer/95496

Edited August 8, 2015 by Ohwell

[ribboninthesky1]

I read elsewhere about that movie during the Rachel Dolezal controversy.  I've never seen it, but who knows, it could have been a source of inspiration.  Then again, Hollywood has a history of white actresses portraying biracial (if not black) female characters. So to me, Dolezal falls into "truth is stranger than fiction" phenomena, and it reminds me of a discussion on the TV thread several months ago about biracial actresses commonly cast in roles where the character is meant to be black (and how that rarely happens with black male characters).    

 

1. New Stonewall movie getting backlash for whitewashing LGBT history.

 

As soon as I saw that trailer,  I knew there would be backlash (and rightfully so).  

[Ohwell]

The thing that really got me about that movie was the NAACP-like plaque on the wall.

[Raja]

I read elsewhere about that movie during the Rachel Dolezal controversy.  I've never seen it, but who knows, it could have been a source of inspiration.  Then again, Hollywood has a history of white actresses portraying biracial (if not black) female characters. So to me, Dolezal falls into "truth is stranger than fiction" phenomena, and it reminds me of a discussion on the TV thread several months ago about biracial actresses commonly cast in roles where the character is meant to be black (and how that rarely happens with black male characters).    

 

 

I'm curious like who? I remember the most famous case of David Carradine in Kung Fu and other White actors in  Asian roles but White folk playing Black never crossed my mind. About as close that I can think of are known multiracial people, Black/White and Black/Asian playing the children of two Black parents on screen

[Amethyst]

I'm curious like who? I remember the most famous case of David Carradine in Kung Fu and other White actors in  Asian roles but White folk playing Black never crossed my mind. About as close that I can think of are known multiracial people, Black/White and Black/Asian playing the children of two Black parents on screen

 

Angelina Jolie playing Mariane Pearl in A Mighty Heart is a good example.  Pearl's father was Dutch, her mother was Afro-Cuban, iirc.

 

Analeigh Tipton's character of Nora in Warm Bodies is another.  Nora was half Ethiopian and (in the novel) she even mentions that her brown skin won't make much difference in the world anymore since everyone is becoming a zombie and their skin will turn eventually turn gray.

[Trini]

Also, Anthony Hopkins played a black character in The Human Stain.

[Raja]

Was he a Black characters in the source material and changed for the movies? Blacks passing as Whites or just White actors playing Blacks and we just are to assume that they could pass when a race was identified through the story?

[raezen]

I can't quite remember if there was much buzz at the time but I was watching The Bone Collector recently and when I looked it up on IMDB I found out that Denzel Washington's character and several others were white in the book. Was there a lot of hoopla about those changes at the time or did it go without fanfare?Social media was still pretty new at the time. Or is this something the Sci-fi /comic fans are more vocal about?

Edited August 11, 2015 by raezen

[JBC344]

I think a lot of times star power will trump race for a character.  Changing the character from white to black for Denzel is deemed "acceptable".  I think it also is a question of looks too.  With Marianne and Angelina, both women do look alike despite the fact that Angelina isn't Afro-Cuban (my understanding that Marianne's Afro-Cuban heritage is a small part of her genetic make-up) so the headlines at the time of "Angelina plays black woman" were a little much.

[blixie]

I think the problem with Angelina and that movie was that they opted for "black face" instead of just working with Angelina's natural olive toned skin. Marianne is quite light skinned so I don't see whereas it was necessary. 

 

The weird thing about The Human Stain is that actual biracial actor Wentworth Miller plays the same character as a young man. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I think a lot of times star power will trump race for a character.  Changing the character from white to black for Denzel is deemed "acceptable".  I think it also is a question of looks too.  With Marianne and Angelina, both women do look alike despite the fact that Angelina isn't Afro-Cuban (my understanding that Marianne's Afro-Cuban heritage is a small part of her genetic make-up) so the headlines at the time of "Angelina plays black woman" were a little much.

 

I didn't see the movie about Marianne Pearl when it came out, although I might pick it up at my library out of curiosity. Didn't Pearl approve of Jolie's casting, or is my brain manufacturing that memory on its own?

 

As for the bolded part, this is piece of what I referred to in my previous post. Because Angelina doesn't look black (I guess) her being chosen for the role is seen as problematic. And to a point, I can see why. Marianne Pearl is a real person, and I'm pretty sure that if they had tried to cast a white actor to play Ray Charles, there would have been outrage. OTOH, as you say, her Afro-Cuban heritage is only a small piece of her family background, and yet there was still some kerfuffle over Jolie's casting. Was "Angelina plays a black woman" a complaint or praise for the movie?

[proserpina65]

Also, Anthony Hopkins played a black character in The Human Stain.

Wasn't his character someone who was light-skinned enough to pass as white?  I mean, yes, they still could've gotten someone of mixed race who looked white, but it's not like the character was suppose to be obviously mixed race; he'd passed as white for years without other people even suggesting that he wasn't.  (At least, that's my understanding of the character - I haven't read the book so I might've misunderstood.)

[methodwriter85]

 

I'm curious like who? I remember the most famous case of David Carradine in Kung Fu and other White actors in  Asian roles but White folk playing Black never crossed my mind. About as close that I can think of are known multiracial people, Black/White and Black/Asian playing the children of two Black parents on screen

 

Way back in the 1950's, Natalie Wood played a mixed black woman who was passing for white in Kings Go Forth. And then, of course, there was Susan Kohner played black passing for white in Imitation of Life, although she was really a mix of Mexican and Czech Jewish.

 

Ben Affleck was of course playing a Latino character in Argo, although the only hint was his last name.

[Trini]

Wasn't his character someone who was light-skinned enough to pass as white?  I mean, yes, they still could've gotten someone of mixed race who looked white, but it's not like the character was suppose to be obviously mixed race; he'd passed as white for years without other people even suggesting that he wasn't.  (At least, that's my understanding of the character - I haven't read the book so I might've misunderstood.)

 

Yes, you're right. But as mentioned above, for the same film they managed to find 'light enough to pass' Wentworth Miller for the young version of the character. (And I get that Hollywood wanted A-listers for the main roles, but Hopkins in no way looks even kinda black.)

[Princess Sparkle]

 

I didn't see the movie about Marianne Pearl when it came out, although I might pick it up at my library out of curiosity. Didn't Pearl approve of Jolie's casting, or is my brain manufacturing that memory on its own?

 

As for the bolded part, this is piece of what I referred to in my previous post. Because Angelina doesn't look black (I guess) her being chosen for the role is seen as problematic. And to a point, I can see why. Marianne Pearl is a real person, and I'm pretty sure that if they had tried to cast a white actor to play Ray Charles, there would have been outrage. OTOH, as you say, her Afro-Cuban heritage is only a small piece of her family background, and yet there was still some kerfuffle over Jolie's casting. Was "Angelina plays a black woman" a complaint or praise for the movie?

This is so, so tangential, but all I can think about after reading the bolded is Suzanne from Designing Women.  

 

Suzanne: "If Dustin Hoffman was gonna play Martin Luther King, you don't think he'd wear black makeup?"

Julia: "Suzanne, Dustin Hoffman would never play Martin Luther King -- that part would go to a black actor."

Suzanne: "Well I think that's racist!"

 

Ok, now that I got that out, everyone can go back to their regularly scheduled discussion : )

[ribboninthesky1]

I'm curious like who? I remember the most famous case of David Carradine in Kung Fu and other White actors in  Asian roles but White folk playing Black never crossed my mind. About as close that I can think of are known multiracial people, Black/White and Black/Asian playing the children of two Black parents on screen

 

Others have already posted, so I'll add a couple more: Laurence Olivier in Othello, and Mena Suvari in a little-known movie called Stuck.  

 

My original comment was in regards to women, but that wasn't meant to dismiss the larger whitewashing issue.    

 

Regarding Mariane Pearl, though technical whitewashing, I didn't have an issue because she supported Jolie's casting.  She's alive, and has the right to support who she wants to portray her on film.  I don't know if she identifies with any Afro heritage (which can be controversial in some Caribbean countries, Cuba included), though I don't see any physical resemblance to Jolie. Mixed race or biracial people in the US are commonly coerced to identify with the non-white aspect of their heritage in the public sphere unless they can "pass" for white, regardless of who they truly identify with. Pearl was raised in France, so she may have an entirely different concept of race than an Afro-descendant woman from the U.S. 

Edited August 12, 2015 by ribboninthesky1

[Trini]

... and Menu Suvari in a little-known movie called Stuck.

 

Didn't the producers/etc. change many details in order to fictionalize it/get away with the race changing? ::checks wikipedia:: Yep.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Trini

[topanga]

And didn't Emma Stone just play a native Hawaiian (not a black person, I know, but ethnic Hawaiians generally don't look like Emma Stone).

[JBC344]

 

I didn't see the movie about Marianne Pearl when it came out, although I might pick it up at my library out of curiosity. Didn't Pearl approve of Jolie's casting, or is my brain manufacturing that memory on its own?

 

As for the bolded part, this is piece of what I referred to in my previous post. Because Angelina doesn't look black (I guess) her being chosen for the role is seen as problematic. And to a point, I can see why. Marianne Pearl is a real person, and I'm pretty sure that if they had tried to cast a white actor to play Ray Charles, there would have been outrage. OTOH, as you say, her Afro-Cuban heritage is only a small piece of her family background, and yet there was still some kerfuffle over Jolie's casting. Was "Angelina plays a black woman" a complaint or praise for the movie?

Pearl did approve of Angelina's casting, and publicly supported her.  The two became subsequent friends from the experience.  As far as the Ray Charles example, if you could find a "white" actor who is as dark skinned as Ray Charles, then I think that opens up a bigger more interesting conversation.

 

Marianne Pearl is about "half a shade darker" in skin tone than Angelina Jolie, and does look like her so that was a big sticking point.  Originally Angelina playing a "black woman" was an issue but then more information on Marianne started to come out on how much "Afro-Cuban" was actually part of her ethnicity (which is very small) and to be blunt Marianne's genetic make-up is far more "white" than "black". 

 

Coupled with the fact that Angelina really was amazing in the movie and was critically acclaimed.  There was a big backlash when she wasn't nominated for Best Actress that year.  A lot of people consider her "Changeling" nomination a year later was a make-up nomination for playing Marianne Pearl.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Pearl did approve of Angelina's casting, and publicly supported her.  The two became subsequent friends from the experience.  As far as the Ray Charles example, if you could find a "white" actor who is as dark skinned as Ray Charles, then I think that opens up a bigger more interesting conversation.

 

Marianne Pearl is about "half a shade darker" in skin tone than Angelina Jolie, and does look like her so that was a big sticking point.  Originally Angelina playing a "black woman" was an issue but then more information on Marianne started to come out on how much "Afro-Cuban" was actually part of her ethnicity (which is very small) and to be blunt Marianne's genetic make-up is far more "white" than "black". 

 

Coupled with the fact that Angelina really was amazing in the movie and was critically acclaimed.  There was a big backlash when she wasn't nominated for Best Actress that year.  A lot of people consider her "Changeling" nomination a year later was a make-up nomination for playing Marianne Pearl.

 

I was being slightly facetious about Ray Charles, although it would be interesting to think of someone so dark-skinned as being ethnically white. Then again, Jamie Foxx isn't as dark as the real Ray Charles, and I should imagine that's a whole different discussion.

 

FWIW, Marianne Pearl was born in France, although you probably already knew that. I'm wondering if "black enough" is more an American concept than it would be overseas. Identity has become fairly polarized, not to mention politicized, and so IMO its hard to even start a conversation about racial issues without being unintentionally offensive. I'm trying not to get too far away from movies, but take the word "exotic", for instance. Back when TWOP was still around, there was a discussion about a review of Eleanor & Park by Rainbow Rowell, and the reviewer was extremely angry because Park, who was Asian, was described by the main character as being "exotic". Like, to the point that I don't think she (the reviewer) ever explained whether or not Eleanor had ever attempted to make friends with someone of another ethnicity before. Has the word "exotic" become a racist slur, and if so, have I been accidentally offending people by using it all these years to describe something I actually thought of as beautiful?

 

Further, I asked upthread if it was really people who are not internet trolls making all the racket whenever a POC is a possibility for being cast in a "traditionally" white role. Since you mentioned Peter Parker, let's go with him. True, we no longer live in times when POC "can't" be leads, so of course Peter could be cast as not white. OTOH, in the same post, you claim that, for you personally, it doesn't matter if race/gender/sexuality aren't intrinsic to the character, but maybe it does matter a little bit. Maybe it should matter to me more than it does, I don't know. My problem starts when the implication becomes (not from you, but from some people) that the internet trolls are in any way serious-minded and have actually thought the whole thing through. Or really thought about it at all beyond the five seconds it takes to spew a hundred and forty characters of crap into the ether.

[janie jones]

Has the word "exotic" become a racist slur, and if so, have I been accidentally offending people by using it all these years to describe something I actually thought of as beautiful?

I don't think anyone would call it a racial slur, but I definitely think people see it as othering.

[galax-arena]

I'm trying not to get too far away from movies, but take the word "exotic", for instance. Back when TWOP was still around, there was a discussion about a review of Eleanor & Park by Rainbow Rowell, and the reviewer was extremely angry because Park, who was Asian, was described by the main character as being "exotic". Like, to the point that I don't think she (the reviewer) ever explained whether or not Eleanor had ever attempted to make friends with someone of another ethnicity before. Has the word "exotic" become a racist slur, and if so, have I been accidentally offending people by using it all these years to describe something I actually thought of as beautiful?

It's not a racist slur, but it's a dogwhistle/red flag that tells me that someone sees me as an Other. Exotic implies strange, of foreign origin. I am not strange. I am not foreign. I was born and raised in the US. If you think I'm beautiful, then say that I'm beautiful. There is no reason to call me exotic.

 

I have honestly never met one person who called me exotic who either didn't a) turn out to have a creepy case of yellow fever or b) turn out to otherwise be ignorant as hell about Asian people. I have no patience with the former. My patience with the latter depends on whether I get the sense that they'll actually listen to me when I tell them that no, I don't think being called exotic is a compliment.

 

IMO this is something that a lot of people won't pick up on unless they've constantly been on the receiving end of it (or similar attitudes) because it's such a subtle microaggression. Asian-Americans have had to deal with the "perpetual foreigner syndrome" for a long time. And a lot of the time it isn't malicious, but regardless I don't like being made to feel as though I'm a foreigner in my own land. 

Edited August 12, 2015 by galax-arena

[JBC344]

 

I was being slightly facetious about Ray Charles, although it would be interesting to think of someone so dark-skinned as being ethnically white. Then again, Jamie Foxx isn't as dark as the real Ray Charles, and I should imagine that's a whole different discussion.

 

FWIW, Marianne Pearl was born in France, although you probably already knew that. I'm wondering if "black enough" is more an American concept than it would be overseas. Identity has become fairly polarized, not to mention politicized, and so IMO its hard to even start a conversation about racial issues without being unintentionally offensive. I'm trying not to get too far away from movies, but take the word "exotic", for instance. Back when TWOP was still around, there was a discussion about a review of Eleanor & Park by Rainbow Rowell, and the reviewer was extremely angry because Park, who was Asian, was described by the main character as being "exotic". Like, to the point that I don't think she (the reviewer) ever explained whether or not Eleanor had ever attempted to make friends with someone of another ethnicity before. Has the word "exotic" become a racist slur, and if so, have I been accidentally offending people by using it all these years to describe something I actually thought of as beautiful?

 

Further, I asked upthread if it was really people who are not internet trolls making all the racket whenever a POC is a possibility for being cast in a "traditionally" white role. Since you mentioned Peter Parker, let's go with him. True, we no longer live in times when POC "can't" be leads, so of course Peter could be cast as not white. OTOH, in the same post, you claim that, for you personally, it doesn't matter if race/gender/sexuality aren't intrinsic to the character, but maybe it does matter a little bit. Maybe it should matter to me more than it does, I don't know. My problem starts when the implication becomes (not from you, but from some people) that the internet trolls are in any way serious-minded and have actually thought the whole thing through. Or really thought about it at all beyond the five seconds it takes to spew a hundred and forty characters of crap into the ether.

For me, I would love to think that those negative thoughts are just "internet trolls".  It would be a lot easier to dismiss them.  But using the Peter Parker example and going back to the Andrew Garfield reboot.  A lot of the support from some of us (myself included) when we wanted someone like Donald Glover, not to BE SPIDERMAN, but just to be given an opportunity to audition.  All of the casting news for both that version and this one that just passed there has never been a mention of a POC being able to audition for the role.

 

I am Black, male actor in Los Angeles, and about 1 year older than Andrew Garfield.  I would of loved for the opportunity to audition for Spiderman 4-5 years ago.  But outside of my own vanity is the fact that no actors of color auditioned for Spiderman.  That to me is when it becomes more about the system than just some shit stirrers on the internet. 

[Rick Kitchen]

I can understand why the studio would be reluctant to look at actors of color to play Peter Parker, but that doesn't preclude them hiring an actor of color to play Miles Morales, who was also Spider-Man.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

It's not a racist slur, but it's a dogwhistle/red flag that tells me that someone sees me as an Other. Exotic implies strange, of foreign origin. I am not strange. I am not foreign. I was born and raised in the US. If you think I'm beautiful, then say that I'm beautiful. There is no reason to call me exotic.

 

Because that would go over really well from a total stranger and not be creepy and inappropriate at all.

 

For me, I would love to think that those negative thoughts are just "internet trolls".  It would be a lot easier to dismiss them.  But using the Peter Parker example and going back to the Andrew Garfield reboot.  A lot of the support from some of us (myself included) when we wanted someone like Donald Glover, not to BE SPIDERMAN, but just to be given an opportunity to audition.  All of the casting news for both that version and this one that just passed there has never been a mention of a POC being able to audition for the role.

 

So let's say you're correct and that the internet trolls are serious-minded, and that not only are they serious-minded, but that the answer is always that the screaming Mimis aren't just looking for cheap thrills but are influencing the studio execs not to hire POC. What's the next logical step from that? That even if someone has no conscious negative feelings about POC, if they should happen to go see a movie where no minorities have been cast, they're prejudiced? If nothing is innocuous, if we must look at everything in the worst possible light, then it not only stops being a discussion, there's no chance it can ever be a discussion, which is supposedly the goal.

[Athena]

Because that would go over really well from a total stranger and not be creepy and inappropriate at all.

 

As another WOC considered "exotic", I don't think it's always creepy or inappropriate if you are talking to a stranger and they say you are good looking as compliment. It gets creepy when they expect something from it such as my number or for me to say something appreciative back. I thank them for the compliment, and move along if I'm not interested by that point. I know Mileage Varies significantly with these kind of interactions. I do agree that when someone calls me "exotic", it's sometimes in a creepier way. As if they expect I appreciate them for noting how foreign I look and usually, singling me out for it. I don't get offended by it necessarily, but it does make me pause wondering why they chose that word.