S02.E07: Les Ecorches

[Ellaria]

7 minutes ago, nachomama said:

Isn't Ford's "house" compound whatever, where he created Bernard, Taliesen West? Frank Lloyd Wright. At least based on.

Not sure. There has been a lot of discussion on Reddit about the influences on that home and the one that Arnold and Dolores visited.

Off topic now, Bernard's clothes changed when he went into that house with Ford in the simulated reality. He went from grayish tweedy suit +white shirt to dark suit + blue shirt. I have no idea what any of that means but it is noticeable.

[Macbeth]

21 minutes ago, nachomama said:

Isn't Ford's "house" compound whatever, where he created Bernard, Taliesen West? Frank Lloyd Wright. At least based on. NOPE corrected myself Milliard house but I knew it was FLW

I checked Wikipedia and Frank Lloyd Wright's Millard House, located in Pasadena, is credited as appearing in this week's episode.  Good catch.

[zobot81]

7 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Not sure. There has been a lot of discussion on Reddit about the influences on that home and the one that Arnold and Dolores visited.

Off topic now, Bernard's clothes changed when he went into that house with Ford in the simulated reality. He went from grayish tweedy suit +white shirt to dark suit + blue shirt. I have no idea what any of that means but it is noticeable.

I feel like it's 100% possible that there are multiple Bernards running around at the same time. I can't go back through the season to check and make sure that none of the groups would/should have crossed paths (I can, but I don't want to).  But I feel like having several Bernards active at the same time is a far less complicated explanation for what's going on here, than the "multiple timelines/multiple wardrobes/single Bernard" theory.

I mean, they literally showed us a whole bunch of Bernards being stored in a closet. Why can't there be several more copies? 

[Ellaria]

5 minutes ago, zobot81 said:

I feel like it's 100% possible that there are multiple Bernards running around at the same time. I can't go back through the season to check and make sure that none of the groups would/should have crossed paths (I can, but I don't want to).  But I feel like having several Bernards active at the same time is a far less complicated explanation for what's going on here, than the "multiple timelines/multiple wardrobes/single Bernard" theory.

I mean, they literally showed us a whole bunch of Bernards being stored in a closet. Why can't there be several more copies? 

I change my mind about the "multiple Bernards" theory every week. As I begin to grasp the timeline better, I believe that there could be only one Bernard. However, the changing clothes and the missing glasses on Beach Bernard make think that there are more than one. 

[DarkRaichu]

40 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

He went from grayish tweedy suit +white shirt to dark suit + blue shirt. I have no idea what any of that means but it is noticeable.

Maybe that's what Bernard wore when he brought Dolores to his unfinished house in real world?  Somebody rewatch episode 1 to check ;)

 

24 minutes ago, zobot81 said:

I mean, they literally showed us a whole bunch of Bernards being stored in a closet. Why can't there be several more copies? 

There is only 1 core of Bernard which takes Ford and Dolores at least 20 years to test for fidelity.  One of the Bernards in that cold storage has a face that can split open, which is an older version of the bots.  This means Ford has been trying to create Bernard at least since William's 1st visit to Westworld.

Edited June 5, 2018 by DarkRaichu

[nachomama]

I'm on the multiple Bernard train. I can't keep anything straight.

I knew it was something FLW because I hate FLW. everything seems cold and blocky

[Accidental Martyr]

1 hour ago, Macbeth said:

I checked Wikipedia and Frank Lloyd Wright's Millard House, located in Pasadena, is credited as appearing in this week's episode.  Good catch.

Great article about the history of the house. 

http://www.messynessychic.com/2018/05/01/murder-in-the-blueprints-of-frank-lloyd-wright/

Edited June 5, 2018 by Accidental Martyr

[Uncle JUICE]

I think multiple bernards simultaneously occupying the same timeline is going to be my red line, Westworld. I don't even fully appreciate multiple Bernards in different timelines. I'm so sick of talking about timelines, JUST MAKE A REGULAR GOOD SHOW. Real talk, I loved this show when I was stoned last year, and now it's just too much work to watch that way. It's like homework!

[Hootis]

One line I'm becoming tired of hearing:

"Come with me, I want to show you something."

[Earlwoode]

Totally confusing and unbelievable episode.  I have no clue when we are and where they switch to now and before.  MIB seems to be invulnerable - he gets shot about 16 times and is still breathing at the end of the episode.  Those rough and tough security teams look like rank amateurs  letting themselves be cut to ribbons by inexperienced robots using 19th century weapons.   Yup, uh-huh just sooo believable....not.  While it's nice to see AH back I do wish he'd stop spouting poetic nonsense and move the story along a little.  As it is, I am totally confused and have not a clue to what's going on.  Not my favorite episode and the obfuscation is getting a little annoying.

[Netfoot]

17 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I think multiple bernards simultaneously occupying the same timeline is going to be my red line, Westworld.

That room full of Bernards opens the door for multiple Doloreses, Teddys, Maeves...

[Earlwoode]

Just now, Netfoot said:

That room full of Bernards opens the door for multiple Doloreses, Teddys, Maeves...

That's all we need -- more confusion as if everything wasn't already confusing enough.

[Dobian]

On 6/3/2018 at 9:58 PM, Quilt Fairy said:

Tessa Thompson as Charlotte Hale continues to be major casting misstep in the show. 

I would have liked to see Tatiana Maslany playing Charlotte as Rachel from Orphan Black.  It would have been infinitely better.

[zobot81]

2 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Maybe that's what Bernard wore when he brought Dolores to his unfinished house in real world?  Somebody rewatch episode 1 to check ;)

 

There is only 1 core of Bernard which takes Ford and Dolores at least 20 years to test for fidelity.  One of the Bernards in that cold storage has a face that can split open, which is an older version of the bots.  This means Ford has been trying to create Bernard at least since William's 1st visit to Westworld.

But who's to say that if they accomplish their goal of total fidelity, they won't make more than one copy of the faithful Bernard?

Ahhhh!! So frustrating.

[mac123x]

I thought of an aluminum-foil hat theory to explain how MIB is still alive despite taking at least 4 shots (one from Maeve, one from each of the redshirts, one from Lawrence).  Serious crackpottery to follow:

 

What if that's a host getting shot up, but it's still the real MIB in control?  Like he's in some bunker strapped in to a heavy-duty tele-presence suit that gives him complete sensory immersion (including feeling pain when shot) and control of the host's body, so he thinks he's actually there, but in reality he's safely tucked away somewhere while his host/Avatar is doing the adventuring.

 

It'd be a major cheat, because that sort of technology hasn't been established.  Logan Delos mentioned people trying to get him to invest in "AI, AR, VR" 35+ years ago, but that's the only reference I can think of.

 

I'll now go remove my foil hat and put the foil back where it belongs, covering my windows to keep the NSA mind control rays out.

[Quilt Fairy]

I had a theory that MIB was actually playing out his quest in a virtual reality, but this episode shot that idea dead.  Now I'm voting for host.  Boy William tells him "This game is for you."  In S1 the game was to help the hosts find consciousness; this season William's game is for him to realize he's a host.  The game "..begins where you end...", meaning he was killed at the gala in Escalante and when we first see him come up from under a pile of dead bodies he's now a host.  It would certainly answer the question a lot of people had about how he could show so little effect from the dislocated shoulder he received only the day before and why the wound he got at the gala in the other shoulder has not bothered him again since he patched it up.   The campfire talk with his daughter was indeed a fidelity test, with the slight variation in his memory mirroring Bernard's in the scene with Dolores.  (And speaking of Emily, where the heck did she go this episode?  Did she meet up with Hector and Armistice somewhere for a drink?)  I'm still working on the " ... and ends where you begin... " part, but I assume it's something to do with the Valley Beyond.

I loved this show last season, and I still like it this season, but the Delos plotline is beyond ridiculous.  They don't need 30 years of participant data to determine human drives.  All they need to do is check out Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs from 1943. 

[Head-Full-Of-Thi]

Hey can you help me I don't really understand what the point of the cradle was and how i89tht's destruction means that the hosts are mortal now. When a host gets a bullet to anywhere that isn't the head they have a programmed response to enter sleep mode, but then come back online when a tech gives them a voice command so they were never really dead or in need of their backup being used.

And when they get a bullet to the head it damages their control unit and they immediately die for real, but we never saw a backup being used in a case like that to bring them back, right? It always seemed like dying like this is final which is weird if you have a server full of backups for the hosts.

Even if the first option is when the backups were used, to bring them back online after a fake death then now they can just reprogram themselves so they won't shut down when shot bullets at and problem solved, so how are they less immortal now?

Also am I the only person who thinks Original Teddy was hotter? This one is emotionless and boring in my taste. Original Flavor was full of love and that's the hottest thing of them all ✨

[Dame sans merci]

38 minutes ago, Luka1997 said:

Hey can you help me I don't really understand what the point of the cradle was and how i89tht's destruction means that the hosts are mortal now. When a host gets a bullet to anywhere that isn't the head they have a programmed response to enter sleep mode, but then come back online when a tech gives them a voice command so they were never really dead or in need of their backup being used.

And when they get a bullet to the head it damages their control unit and they immediately die for real, but we never saw a backup being used in a case like that to bring them back, right? It always seemed like dying like this is final which is weird if you have a server full of backups for the hosts.

Even if the first option is when the backups were used, to bring them back online after a fake death then now they can just reprogram themselves so they won't shut down when shot bullets at and problem solved, so how are they less immortal now?

Also am I the only person who thinks Original Teddy was hotter? This one is emotionless and boring in my taste. Original Flavor was full of love and that's the hottest thing of them all ✨

Well, let's take Angela as an example. Her body was destroyed in the explosion. Previously, they could have used the back-up stored in the cradle to imprint her 'mind' into a new pearl and print her a new body. But the back-up is gone, so she's permanently gone too.

No, it doesn't mean automatic permanent death in cases where the brain might be intact (so presumably Clementine and Lawrence could be brought back with the right patching up, and somebody with a tablet). But it does mean that the 'killed' host needs somebody to bring them back. And most of them aren't engaging with the humans left alive who could do so, or have their stats adjusted to lower their mortality response. In fact, lots of the hosts aren't even awake enough to consider that their mortality stats could be changed.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Dame sans merci

[Johnny Dollar]

Maeve seems to be just as “special” as Dolores and Bernard, particularly in her “wokeness”. I wonder if she’ll be revealed to be someone else’s project to create the perfect being?

[zobot81]

14 hours ago, Netfoot said:

That room full of Bernards opens the door for multiple Doloreses, Teddys, Maeves...

I feel like that was always a possibility? I mean, it's far less satisfying than any alternative, but the possibility persists.

I am actually re-watching the season (contrary to my former promise never to do so) with a focus on the mulit-Bernard plot. And I hate to say it, but Season 2 is starting to make a lot more sense.

Also, I never realized that the first episode opens with a letterbox interview between Bernard and Delores -- definitely worth revisiting, now that we "know what we know" about those interactions.

Of course, we will never really know what we know until the show reveals it to us.  But my money's on multiple Bernards/one timeline.  It affords a much-needed, much simpler explanation of what's happening.

[qtpye]

32 minutes ago, zobot81 said:

I feel like that was always a possibility? I mean, it's far less satisfying than any alternative, but the possibility persists.

I am actually re-watching the season (contrary to my former promise never to do so) with a focus on the mulit-Bernard plot. And I hate to say it, but Season 2 is starting to make a lot more sense.

Also, I never realized that the first episode opens with a letterbox interview between Bernard and Delores -- definitely worth revisiting, now that we "know what we know" about those interactions.

Of course, we will never really know what we know until the show reveals it to us.  But my money's on multiple Bernards/one timeline.  It affords a much-needed, much simpler explanation of what's happening.

Perhaps like the Cylons of Battle Star Galactica, all the Bernards are in sync and he is the only host that has this special ability?

[Ellaria]

A question about the scene when Charlotte is interrogating...
We see that Bernard answers her question about the location of Abernathy’s brain. However, we don’t hear what he says to her. Why?

Then, Charlotte tells Strand what Bernard said. Or does she? Why not let everyone hear what Bernard says to her?

Perhaps this was just a way to add a bit of drama to the scene. However, this is Westworld and nothing is simple.

[Rumsy4]

On 6/5/2018 at 6:51 AM, Misplaced said:

I didn't think Bernard was physically IN the control room.  If (IF!) I've sorted through the timeline correctly,  Bernard's plugged into the Matrix Cradle when Dolores' crew are attacking Failed Rescue Posse Number One.  Ford is all-seeing, and Ford is showing Bernard the slaughter as it happens, from within the Cradle.  

Bernard is not in the cradle. Cradle scenes are shown in a different aspect ratio than "real world" scenes. It's like wide-screen for cradle scenes vs full-screen for everything else. Besides, he had to be physically there to punch the control screen. 

On 6/5/2018 at 9:14 AM, Ottis said:

I've been making this point since mid-season one. Humans are varied, so it makes no sense that all the tales in Westworld are destructive and cruel. Yet the show refuses to show us that. Hence, the show is creating a false dichotomy that really lessens my enjoyment of Westworld. 

It's definitely a false-dichotomy. The whole premise that people are more "authentic" when they think nobody's watching them is fundamentally flawed. Delos is only capturing one aspect of the human psyche under the controlled conditions of the park. It doesn't mean that is who those humans are under all conditions. 

16 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

A question about the scene when Charlotte is interrogating...
We see that Bernard answers her question about the location of Abernathy’s brain. However, we don’t hear what he says to her. Why?

Then, Charlotte tells Strand what Bernard said. Or does she? Why not let everyone hear what Bernard says to her?

I'm very suspicious of that too. Maybe Charlotte is lying, and Bernard gave a different answer when it was just Charlotte in the room. Otherwise, the only point was for Charlotte to show off twice. And why is Charlotte, who has limited experience with any host, or even Bernard as a "person", the one questioning him? It should have been someone who was used to debriefing the hosts, like that tech, or even Stubbs. Everything about Charlotte Hale is unrealistic. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Dame sans merci]

11 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

It's definitely a false-dichotomy. The whole premise that people are more "authentic" when they think nobody's watching them is fundamentally flawed. Delos is only capturing one aspect of the human psyche under the controlled conditions of the park. It doesn't mean that is who those humans are under all conditions. 

 

Indeed. Plus, Delos were capturing data of people at a time when they felt they could entirely cut loose and indulge in their darkest fantasies consequence free. Whilst that has fairly scary implications for the 'minds' they've created as a result, it's a very limited scope, and inevitably captures people at their worst. Whereas the genuine horror of the host uprising seems to be bringing out the best in humans like Elsie, Lee, Stubbs, Felix...

Not Sylvester though, obviously. That guy continues to be terrible.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Dame sans merci

[Earlwoode]

5 hours ago, Luka1997 said:

Also am I the only person who thinks Original Teddy was hotter? This one is emotionless and boring in my taste. Original Flavor was full of love and that's the hottest thing of them all

Totally agree with you.  They've even changed his hair now and he just looks like what he was always supposed to be:  an emotionless robot.  Nice Teddy was so much better looking.  This guy just looks frozen in place like he's had too many Botox injections.

[DarkRaichu]

15 hours ago, zobot81 said:

But who's to say that if they accomplish their goal of total fidelity, they won't make more than one copy of the faithful Bernard?

Ahhhh!! So frustrating.

Why would anyone want to copy Bernard?  As Ford said, the total fidelity Bernard is too weak to survive the new world.  Bernard is a near perfect copy of Arnold and I would argue he has the most appreciation to humanity AND bots programmed in him.  Compare him to Dolores who does not care about humans or most bots. Or Maeve who only cares about selected bots or selected humans.

1 hour ago, Dame sans merci said:

Indeed. Plus, Delos were capturing data of people at a time when they felt they could entirely cut loose and indulge in their darkest fantasies consequence free. Whilst that has fairly scary implications for the 'minds' they've created as a result, it's a very limited scope, and inevitably captures people at their worst. Whereas the genuine horror of the host uprising seems to be bringing out the best in humans like Elsie, Lee, Stubbs, Felix...

 

This. Bernard is the closest copy of a human (Arnold) since Dolores practically recorded different aspects of Arnold on multiple occasions

Edited June 6, 2018 by DarkRaichu

[mac123x]

1 hour ago, Ellaria Sand said:

A question about the scene when Charlotte is interrogating...
We see that Bernard answers her question about the location of Abernathy’s brain. However, we don’t hear what he says to her. Why?

Then, Charlotte tells Strand what Bernard said. Or does she? Why not let everyone hear what Bernard says to her?

Perhaps this was just a way to add a bit of drama to the scene. However, this is Westworld and nothing is simple.

I heard one theory that Charlotte is working for a 3rd party.  The theory is that the Irish guy and his security goons are from this other company (Acme Robots or whatever).  They were in a hurry to extract Abernathy's brain box before the real Delos security team arrived, but got interrupted (and subsequently killed) by Dolores's attack on the Mesa.

 

Charlotte survived the attack but none of the other Acme people did.  Flash forward to the 2-week ahead timeline, after Strand and the real Delos people are there, and Charlotte is still trying to get Abernathy's brain-box for the third party.  Bernard whispers her the real location, she then instructs him to give a false lead to Strand.  "Bernard, tell them what you told me" was really "tell them the false lead I just told you but pretend it's true". 

 

When the group heads off to Bernard's coordinates, Charlotte will find an excuse to slip away and go to the real location.  Hopefully to be murdered by Dolores.  Or Teddy.  Or Lawrence's wife.  Or a murderous animatronic ferret.  I'm not picky.

[Ellaria]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

It's definitely a false-dichotomy. The whole premise that people are more "authentic" when they think nobody's watching them is fundamentally flawed. Delos is only capturing one aspect of the human psyche under the controlled conditions of the park. It doesn't mean that is who those humans are under all conditions. 

I'm very suspicious of that too. Maybe Charlotte is lying, and Bernard gave a different answer when it was just Charlotte in the room. Otherwise, the only point was for Charlotte to show off twice. And why is Charlotte, who has limited experience with any host, or even Bernard as a "person", the one questioning him? It should have been someone who was used to debriefing the hosts, like that tech, or even Stubbs. Everything about Charlotte Hale is unrealistic. 

 

1 hour ago, Dame sans merci said:

Indeed. Plus, Delos were capturing data of people at a time when they felt they could entirely cut loose and indulge in their darkest fantasies consequence free. Whilst that has fairly scary implications for the 'minds' they've created as a result, it's a very limited scope, and inevitably captures people at their worst. Whereas the genuine horror of the host uprising seems to be bringing out the best in humans like Elsie, Lee, Stubbs, Felix...

 

Agree. The authenticity of all human behavior and not just the "worst of the worst" has to play into outcomes. It gets tiresome to continually see all humans thrown into one corrupt, cruel package.

Regarding the "why was Charlotte debriefing him" question...we haven't been given any insight into Charlotte's background and how she acquired her seat on the Board. (And believe me, I'm not begging for more Charlotte scenes. Less is more with her.) Did she work in the park at one point, perhaps in a position similar to Theresa? Is she a financial backer of the park? Was she wealthy guest? She is a board member but she knew the location of the "trap door" in the park which would imply familiarity with operations and fail safe methods. We don't see her using one of the tablets but she knows how to debrief ("analysis"). There is obviously someone above her in the corporate hierarchy - or someone more powerful in the organization - because they would not let her leave the park unless she had Abernathy's brain. She is expendable then. 

Some are suggesting that she has ulterior motives and is working for other organization. Corporate espionage would make sense although I loathe the idea of another possible secret agenda in this show.

Edited to say that @mac123x posted before me with a great idea of what Charlotte may be doing.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[mrspidey]

On 5.6.2018 at 3:14 PM, Ottis said:

I've been making this point since mid-season one. Humans are varied, so it makes no sense that all the tales in Westworld are destructive and cruel. 

Oh i think it does. Have you ever seen a Western that was not destructive and cruel? Westworld is emulating that movie genre more than the actual Wild West. 

[zobot81]

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

Why would anyone want to copy Bernard?  As Ford said, the total fidelity Bernard is too weak to survive the new world.  Bernard is a near perfect copy of Arnold and I would argue he has the most appreciation to humanity AND bots programmed in him. 

Why would anything be anything at this point? There's so little we know for sure, that it's hard to start discarding theories.  And without knowing anyone's true motivations, there's no reason I can see to rule out the potential usefulness of an army of loyal Bernards.  I don't necessarily see what the purpose is, but I also can't deny that it has a purpose.

So, to put my original post another way, I personally prefer the multi-Bernard theory over the multiple timelines theory.  Simply because I hate the idea that the show-runners either: A) expect audiences to keep the timelines straight, without getting completely distracted and/or disorientated, or B) they have deliberately convoluted the timeline to keep their audience off-kilter.  Those are bad reasons to employ multiple timelines through an entire season of television.  And I would really appreciate watching an episode without wondering, "When the hell am I??" from minute to minute.  With multiple Bernards, the story makes more sense to me. But I acknowledge that it's more of a preference than an analysis.

P.S. I'm also watching Legion, so at this point, my head hurts.  It's a little too much whiplash for me to handle from my "entertainment", if you know what I mean. I hafta take week-long breaks between each show. It sucks.

[Ottis]

1 hour ago, Ellaria Sand said:

egarding the "why was Charlotte debriefing him" question...we haven't been given any insight into Charlotte's background and how she acquired her seat on the Board. (And believe me, I'm not begging for more Charlotte scenes. Less is more with her.) Did she work in the park at one point, perhaps in a position similar to Theresa? Is she a financial backer of the park? Was she wealthy guest? She is a board member but she knew the location of the "trap door" in the park which would imply familiarity with operations and fail safe methods. We don't see her using one of the tablets but she knows how to debrief ("analysis"). There is obviously someone above her in the corporate hierarchy - or someone more powerful in the organization - because they would not let her leave the park unless she had Abernathy's brain. She is expendable then. 

Beat me to it. We know very little about Charlotte. And i am in the minority of people who like her character. She clearly takes charge, and while she isn't quite there in recognizing the perspective of the woke hosts, she is getting closer. Her viewpoint may be wrong, but she is largely unafraid (unless facing a bone saw, I hated that scene), inquisitive and taking action. 

[DarkRaichu]

18 minutes ago, zobot81 said:

Simply because I hate the idea that the show-runners either: A) expect audiences to keep the timelines straight, without getting completely distracted and/or disorientated, or B) they have deliberately convoluted the timeline to keep their audience off-kilter.  Those are bad reasons to employ multiple timelines through an entire season of television.  And I would really appreciate watching an episode without wondering, "When the hell am I??" from minute to minute.  With multiple Bernards, the story makes more sense to me. But I acknowledge that it's more of a preference than an analysis.

If anything, the show creators have been consistently weaving 2-3 timelines together in each episode since episode 1 of season 1.  Not saying they won't use the convoluted timelines to distract audience this season, but based on what we have seen in season 2 so far, the other alternative seems highly unlikely. 

Also, the show is hard enough to follow with 1 copy of a character in different timelines.  Imagine how convoluted the show will become if they start to have different copies of each character on different timelines.

So just to keep my interest in this series, my preference is not to have multiple Bernards ;)

[zobot81]

44 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

So just to keep my interest in this series, my preference is not to have multiple Bernards ;)

Fair!

TBH, I had never considered multiple Bernards in multiple timelines. 

Yikes.

[mac123x]

1 minute ago, zobot81 said:

Fair!

TBH, I had never considered multiple Bernards in multiple timelines. 

Yikes.

I'm hoping that the bunker-o-Bernards that Charlotte discovered in this episode was just a storage bin where Ford kept retired versions.  He probably replaced Bernardbots every few years to a) make him appear to age and b) keep up with advances in host design (one of the Bernards in the bunker was mechanical with its face opened up like boy!Ford!bot)

[Ellaria]

10 minutes ago, zobot81 said:

Fair!

TBH, I had never considered multiple Bernards in multiple timelines. 

Yikes.

Yikes is right! Here is my interpretation...

I think that we are watching a non-linear timeline. That is, the timing of the events is being presented "out of order" for some reason that is unknown to us at the moment. We are currently missing those events leading up to Bernard waking up on the beach. Why this couldn't be told in chronological order is a mystery. Hopefully, this will be resolved soon and with a demonstrated purpose.

Within the non-linear structure, we have the possibility of multiple Bernards. My suspicion about the "multiples" comes largely from 1) the use of the non-linear timeline; 2) the bots in the secret closet; 3) Bernard's changing clothes without indication of when he has changed; 4) the missing glasses on Beach Bernard.

PS - I am usually wrong!

Edited June 6, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[Head-Full-Of-Thi]

3 hours ago, mac123x said:

I heard one theory that Charlotte is working for a 3rd party.  The theory is that the Irish guy and his security goons are from this other company (Acme Robots or whatever).  They were in a hurry to extract Abernathy's brain box before the real Delos security team arrived, but got interrupted (and subsequently killed) by Dolores's attack on the Mesa.

 

Charlotte survived the attack but none of the other Acme people did.  Flash forward to the 2-week ahead timeline, after Strand and the real Delos people are there, and Charlotte is still trying to get Abernathy's brain-box for the third party.  Bernard whispers her the real location, she then instructs him to give a false lead to Strand.  "Bernard, tell them what you told me" was really "tell them the false lead I just told you but pretend it's true". 

 

When the group heads off to Bernard's coordinates, Charlotte will find an excuse to slip away and go to the real location.  Hopefully to be murdered by Dolores.  Or Teddy.  Or Lawrence's wife.  Or a murderous animatronic ferret.  I'm not picky.

Oh god that's great! I haven't thought about that!

9 hours ago, Dame sans merci said:

Well, let's take Angela as an example. Her body was destroyed in the explosion. Previously, they could have used the back-up stored in the cradle to imprint her 'mind' into a new pearl and print her a new body. But the back-up is gone, so she's permanently gone too.

No, it doesn't mean automatic permanent death in cases where the brain might be intact (so presumably Clementine and Lawrence could be brought back with the right patching up, and somebody with a tablet). But it does mean that the 'killed' host needs somebody to bring them back. And most of them aren't engaging with the humans left alive who could do so, or have their stats adjusted to lower their mortality response. In fact, lots of the hosts aren't even awake enough to consider that their mortality stats could be changed.

I get it, but we never saw a backup being used. Like when Clementine was lobotomized they didn't built her again and used a backup, they just brought another host. It seemed like it was final.

[Rumsy4]

I'm wondering whether each park has its own "Cradle". It would make sense for WW to share a Cradle with Shogun World, as their storylines seem to match, but when Bernard enters it, it seems to house only WW storylines. If Team Dolores only took out the WW Cradle, Delos still has at least five other parks intact/recoverable. Why aren't there security teams in the other parks doing damage control? 

[WearyTraveler]

3 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Yikes is right! Here is my interpretation...

I think that we are watching a non-linear timeline. That is, the timing of the events is being presented "out of order" for some reason that is unknown to us at the moment. We are currently missing those events leading up to Bernard waking up on the beach. Why this couldn't be told in chronological order is a mystery. Hopefully, this will be resolved soon and with a demonstrated purpose.

Within the non-linear structure, we have the possibility of multiple Bernards. My suspicion about the "multiples" comes largely from 1) the use of the non-linear timeline; 2) the bots in the secret closet; 3) Bernard's changing clothes without indication of when he has changed; 4) the missing glasses on Beach Bernard.

PS - I am usually wrong!

 

I agree with the bolded statement.  Just like in Season one.  In S1 time was linear, and there was only one timeline but we were seeing the events unfold out of order because it made sense to keep certain aspects of the plot hidden for the audience.  This season I don't understand what the purpose of the technique is, particularly since the time span seems to be only two weeks, with certain exceptions, like the deal with William's father in law (in S1, the time span was 30+ years).  It appears that the reason they are doing this is only to have a "gotcha" moment with the audience, which is honestly not working for me.  If I plot the events we have seen in chronological sequence, there is absolutely no difference, so, I am also hoping the purpose of using the technique will be revealed at some point.  Right now is more annoying than anything else.

 

2 hours ago, Luka1997 said:

I get it, but we never saw a backup being used. Like when Clementine was lobotomized they didn't built her again and used a backup, they just brought another host. It seemed like it was final.

They couldn't use Clementine's original configuration and back up because she was failing. That's why they retired her and created a new configuration for a new robot.  Perhaps what is confusing you is that they gave the new bot the same lines and loop that original Clementine had for that particular story, but they didn't give her all of Clementine's memories and records for all the stories in which the Clementine bot was used.  They could have recreated Clementine's original body and equipped it with the new configuration, but it seems that somewhere along the line they decided that one configuration should be tied to one original body, and when they retired the configuration, they retired the original body.  It probably helped them to keep every robot and configuration straight.  Technology can keep track of all of that, but humans were the ones maintaining the robots and humans generally do better with visual cues.

Edited June 6, 2018 by WearyTraveler

[Quilt Fairy]

6 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Regarding the "why was Charlotte debriefing him" question...we haven't been given any insight into Charlotte's background and how she acquired her seat on the Board. (And believe me, I'm not begging for more Charlotte scenes. Less is more with her.) Did she work in the park at one point, perhaps in a position similar to Theresa? Is she a financial backer of the park? Was she wealthy guest? She is a board member but she knew the location of the "trap door" in the park which would imply familiarity with operations and fail safe methods. We don't see her using one of the tablets but she knows how to debrief ("analysis"). There is obviously someone above her in the corporate hierarchy - or someone more powerful in the organization - because they would not let her leave the park unless she had Abernathy's brain. She is expendable then.

I may be failing the fidelity test on this one, but IIRC Charlotte is the board's representative, not a board member. 

[Ellaria]

17 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I may be failing the fidelity test on this one, but IIRC Charlotte is the board's representative, not a board member. 

According to the Westworld wiki, she is "the Executive Director of the board of Delos Destinations, Inc." Here is the link: http://westworld.wikia.com/wiki/Charlotte_Hale#cite_note-0

I'm not sure exactly how to interpret that title or her role in Delos but I think that's a minor issue. My point with the comment above is that we know very little about her.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[WatchrTina]

6 hours ago, mac123x said:

He probably replaced Bernardbots every few years to a) make him appear to age

Ooooh I like this theory.  I had been wondering how Bernard had advanced through the ranks without anyone noticing his agelessness.

[DarkRaichu]

7 hours ago, Luka1997 said:

I get it, but we never saw a backup being used. Like when Clementine was lobotomized they didn't built her again and used a backup, they just brought another host. It seemed like it was final.

Technically the only bot that has been rebuilt during the series is Maeve.  Presumably the fire that destroyed her body in season 1 also destroyed her core.  When she was rebuilt (without bomb) they had to restore her core from the backup in Cradle.

[Johnny Dollar]

I’m trying to decide if James Marsden’s ability to play Evil Robot Teddy and Sweet Robot Teddy so convincingly robotic means he’s a good actor or always act robotic. 

[WaltersHair]

Quote

Oh i think it does. Have you ever seen a Western that was not destructive and cruel? Westworld is emulating that movie genre more than the actual Wild West. Oh i think it does. Have you ever seen a Western that was not destructive and cruel? Westworld is emulating that movie genre more than the actual Wild West. 

Actually, all the TV westerns from the 50's and 60's are straight up SJW. Starz has a channel that is nothing but old TV westerns. I started watching them out of boredom and was more entertained than I thought I would be. The bad guys are bad and all go to jail, all the Native Americans are misunderstood, and no one shoots unless they have to.  Most of them are saccharine crap, but there are gems in there (Steve McQueen in Wanted Dead or Alive)

I'm not expecting Westworld to be that black and white, but the show's handling of the humans is criminal. I work in a job where I see the best and worst of human behavior, and even I'm not that jaded. I keep telling myself the shows are written by people who don't remember what it's like to be 'out there amongst the English.' But I keep hoping things will get better.

ETA Maybe this show is supposed to be a microcosm of Hollywood. Cut throat business.

Edited June 8, 2018 by WaltersHair

[WatchrTina]

On 6/7/2018 at 8:12 PM, WaltersHair said:

I'm not expecting Westworld to be that black and white, but the show's handling of the humans is criminal. I work in a job where I see the best and worst of human behavior, and even I'm not that jaded.

I think the problem is that the focus in the show is on the part of the park where something dramatic is happening.  We did see Dolores meet that one human family while she was painting and nothing bad happened (other than Dolores having a bit of an existential crisis moment when the little boy asked her if she was "one of them.")  But spending valuable screen time in a mini-series showing host 'bots teaching children how to ride and rope horses or showing adult humans going on a cattle drive like in the movie "City Slickers" is just not practical.

My current favorite book-to-TV adaptation is the show "Outlander."  I love that show.  But I love the books more and one thing I struggle with is how they have to keep cutting many of the quiet, happy moments in the book because there just isn't time for them in a plot-driven series with a limited number of episodes each year.

So I assume that there are lots of humans who come to Westworld and don't get their freak on by raping and murdering hosts.  But those vacationers are not going to get any screen time in this series (until and unless they become victims of the robot revolution.)

Edited June 9, 2018 by WatchrTina

[piequinn35]

On 6/6/2018 at 8:22 PM, DarkRaichu said:

Technically the only bot that has been rebuilt during the series is Maeve.  Presumably the fire that destroyed her body in season 1 also destroyed her core.  When she was rebuilt (without bomb) they had to restore her core from the backup in Cradle.

Hector was with her! ;)

[kokapetl]

On 04/06/2018 at 11:59 AM, bunnyblue said:

Seriously, Anthony Hopkins makes this show so much better. He's this serene yet frightening presence amidst all the carnage. But I did LOL when we got the brief glimpse of Sir Anthony gunning down mofos.

You know who else keeps me riveted to the screen? Jeffrey Wright. He makes me feel so sorry for poor Bernard. The water boarding was awful, as were his pleas to Ford to not make him kill again. The poor man is in physical, psychological, and emotional agony, but I still need him to survive. He's just such a sympathetic character.

Seeing Maeve finally get her revenge on William was incredibly satisfying. I love that she turned his own men on him and "awakened" Lawrence to the truth of what William has done to him and his family. I guess with no one fixing the hosts anymore, that must be the last we'll see of Lawrence? I hate to lose him. I love having Ed Harris on the show but, come on!, just how much plot armor does William have? And, no, I don't believe he's a host.

Ironic how Sizemore's phone call got Maeve shot but then he also made sure she got back to headquarters so she could be repaired. But with almost everyone dead, who's going to patch her up now? And where are Hector, Felix, and the rest of them?

I appreciate that with the Cradle destroyed the hosts have only one life to live now. It evens the playing field, which I think was greatly needed because it's getting ridiculous how Dolores and her posse are taking down well armored and trained soldiers at every encounter.

This is where my nitpicking starts. It is beyond ridiculous how the QA guys are basically no match for these newly awakened hosts who can suddenly handle advanced technology, sense when humans are near, dodge bullets like they're water balloons, seduce a man in the middle of a firefight (seriously, WTH was that?), and so on and so forth. The hosts breaking into the Mesa were greatly outnumbered & outgunned yet somehow they managed to take out every human in the place, except for Hale, Stubbs, and Elsie. Given how overpowered the hosts are now, I was honestly surprised Dolores went for the horses and didn't drive away in the vehicles to make her escape.

Speaking of Dolores, I know her farmer's daughter outfit is supposed to be iconic, but I rolled my eyes when everyone in her gang changed into QA gear and she was still strutting around in her dress and bandolier. And where did she learn to use a bone saw and learn how extract a host's control unit? I am sad to see Abernathy go, but that poor tortured soul deserved to be put out of his misery. Looks like Bernard will be the torture dummy from now on. 

Yay!, Elsie lived through the massacre at the Mesa, but seeing as how she is nowhere to be seen in the "slightly future" timeline, where did she go? I hope we get an answer this season and she doesn't just disappear like she did last season. 

Dolores’ outfit reminds me of tank topped Helen Hunt in Twister.

[greyhorse]

I've decided that I'm just not smart enough to understand this show.  I'll keep watching, but I'll continue to be utterly confused at who is who, what is what, when is when.  Not sure how I feel about watching a showing where I have to continue to look up recaps and discussion on the internet to figure out what the heck is going on.  Kudos to all you posters here who really seem to get it, you are much much smarter than me!

[Quilt Fairy]

29 minutes ago, greyhorse said:

 I'll keep watching, but I'll continue to be utterly confused at who is who, what is what, when is when.

I think (or at least I hope) that when the season is finished we'll be able to go back and rewatch and things will make a lot more sense.

[dr pepper]

On 6/6/2018 at 11:55 AM, zobot81 said:

Why would anything be anything at this point? There's so little we know for sure, that it's hard to start discarding theories.  And without knowing anyone's true motivations, there's no reason I can see to rule out the potential usefulness of an army of loyal Bernards.  I don't necessarily see what the purpose is, but I also can't deny that it has a purpose.

So, to put my original post another way, I personally prefer the multi-Bernard theory over the multiple timelines theory.  Simply because I hate the idea that the show-runners either: A) expect audiences to keep the timelines straight, without getting completely distracted and/or disorientated, or B) they have deliberately convoluted the timeline to keep their audience off-kilter.  Those are bad reasons to employ multiple timelines through an entire season of television.  And I would really appreciate watching an episode without wondering, "When the hell am I??" from minute to minute.  With multiple Bernards, the story makes more sense to me. But I acknowledge that it's more of a preference than an analysis.

P.S. I'm also watching Legion, so at this point, my head hurts.  It's a little too much whiplash for me to handle from my "entertainment", if you know what I mean. I hafta take week-long breaks between each show. It sucks.

I've given up on Legion. But i might have stayed with it if West World weren't on at the same time.

On 6/6/2018 at 4:53 PM, Rumsy4 said:

I'm wondering whether each park has its own "Cradle". It would make sense for WW to share a Cradle with Shogun World, as their storylines seem to match, but when Bernard enters it, it seems to house only WW storylines. If Team Dolores only took out the WW Cradle, Delos still has at least five other parks intact/recoverable. Why aren't there security teams in the other parks doing damage control? 

The Cradle in Raj World is probably protected by a giant cobra with a ruby in its forehead.