Gimme That Old Time Religion

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

Muffyn, I do not think that the Catholic Church got rid of the idea of purgatory.

John 6:39 is probably one of the most diversely interpreted scriptures, IMO. It states: And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up on the last day. My Baptist parents use it as a justification for their "One saved, always saved" belief.

Upon reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is on the Vatican's own web site -- purgatory is still there as a final purification of the elect.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm

It may not be actively taught at church, but it is still doctrine. Depending on what older Catholics one is exposed to or how "culturally Catholic" an area is where one grows up/lives, I think many Catholics would say they still believe in purgatory. I went to Catholic school for 13 years (from the late 1980s - early 2000s) and religion teachers, when questioned about purgatory, would tell us it was a place to go if you needed to think about what you had done in your life before entering heaven (and you hadn't done anything bad enough for hell). It was explained kind of as being told "go to your room and think about what you've done" by God, which is different from the old-school Catholic idea of only getting out by others' prayers, etc.

I was raised Catholic in one of the most culturally Catholic parts of the U.S. - I'm non-religious now - but I'm still betting on purgatory's existence just in case. ;) I know plenty of other lapsed and practicing Catholics who are comforted by the idea of a third choice in options of where the dead end up.

My guess is that way more American Catholics believe in purgatory than are against birth control. ;)

Edited June 7, 2015 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[pennben]

 

Melanie - Yes, the Catholic Church has gotten rid of  purgatory. I asked a  friend who is a deacon in his church. They no longer preach this.

 

Uhoh....that was always my last hope:) 

 

 

It was explained kind of as being told "go to your room and think about what you've done" by God, which is different from the old-school Catholic idea of only getting out by others' prayers, etc........I know plenty of other lapsed and practicing Catholics who are comforted by the idea of a third choice in options of where the dead end up.

 

Exactly, I was hoping for a "timeout" area if I had miscalculated somewhere along the way!

 

Reminds me of when I was a kid, and always thought you only had one shot at "last rights" and if you somehow managed to live thereafter, you never got the opportunity again and were just stuck with whatever you'd done as you were dying.

Edited June 8, 2015 by pennben

[abbey]

Actually the Catholic church did not get rid of Purgatory.  You don't hear it mentioned much unless you go to a really conservative Catholic church, but it is still a belief in the Catholic Church.  The Act of Contrition before Holy Communion is only sufficient if you have no mortal sin on your soul.  If you have a mortal sin (cheating on your spouse for example) you must go to confession before receiving Holy Communion as you aren't in a state of grace.

[Muffyn]

Dang it!  I think that means I can't just slide on in for a free wafer and a sip of wine next time my aunt tricks me into going to mass.  I'm not willing to go to confession.  Neither I nor the priest can make that kind of time commitment.  

[Fuzzysox]

Jeffress was babbling about Christian persecution last night on Hannity I think he started to say that all Christians need to get together to vote in a new President that.........he got cut off but talk about agenda! 

 

So is that what all these crazy people think if they get a Christian believing President the persecution will stop? Ummm what happened to separation of church and state!?

[GEML]

(Wry tone) when's the last time we had a non believer in the White House?

[JenCarroll]

As far as I know, we do have a Christian president and always have.

[Fuzzysox]

As far as I know, we do have a Christian president and always have.

Apparently Jeffress doesn't live in the good ole U. S. of A. *eye roll*

[bluebonnet]

The first four presidents, at least, are thought not to have been Christians.  Today's revisionism declares that the founding fathers were all deeply devoted devout Christians, but it's just simply not true.  The Office of the President has become more Christian as time has passed, with Bush and Obama being some of the godliest POTUS', at least based on how many times they invoke god in their speech, with it being very much implied that this god they call out for is meant to be the Jesus god of christians.  

Edited June 9, 2015 by bluebonnet

[JenCarroll]

The first four presidents, at least, are thought not to have been Christians.  Today's revisionism declares that the founding fathers were all deeply devoted devout Christians, but it's just simply not true.  The Office of the President has become more Christian as time has passed, with Bush and Obama being some of the godliest POTUS', at least based on how many times they invoke god in their speech, with it being very much implied that this god they call out for is meant to be the Jesus god of christians.

Well, they attended Christian churches, for the most part, but like a lot of 18th century intellectuals, by and large they were deists. Deists believe in a Creator (note Jefferson's use of that exact term in the Declaration of Independence) but not an active, intervening God, and they specifically reject the divinity of Jesus. So yes, it's fair to say they weren't Christians, but even back then, that wasn't a great selling point to the general public (hence the church attendance).

I really hate the way people (like Josh) try to get their personal agenda passed into law under the claim that "This is a Christian nation." Because it's not, and was never meant to be. What does the Constitution say about God? Absolutely nothing.

[GEML]

Eh, I think if you asked them if they were Christian, they would have answered yes. And for more than just political expediency. There is such a thing as culturally Christian without believing in the whole idea of evangelism and the apocalypse and the Jesus prayer, many of which didn't even exist at the time of the Revolution. Both sides, to me, really go out of their way to make this a really politicized and self serving point when it's really not.

[galax-arena]

Eh, I think if you asked them if they were Christian, they would have answered yes.

Perhaps, but they are not Christian in the way that the modern-day Christian Right asserts that they were (i.e. adhering to similar literalist/theocratic/fundamentalist values). So I think it's a point worth refuting when the Duggars and their ilk bring it up, because they're obviously trying to paint a picture of the Founding Fathers who were just like them in an effort to turn the US into some pseudo-theocracy, and it's so patently bullshit.

 

Anybody with the same beliefs/principles today would be derided as not being really Christian unlike the Duggars and their Bible-believing selves. I mean, these mofos don't think that Obama is really/sufficiently Christian, so...

Edited June 9, 2015 by galax-arena

[Absolom]

 

here is such a thing as culturally Christian without believing in the whole idea of evangelism and the apocalypse and the Jesus prayer,

I feel the need to remind people that you can be actually Christian without believing in any of those items.  :)  Many denominations don't do door to door or in your face evangelism preferring life style evangelism, the apocalypse is not universally accepted, and the Jesus Prayer means something else entirely to Eastern Orthodox than it does to evangelicals and fundies.  

 

It's because of the Duggars and their ilk, I feel the need to frequently say that they don't get to decide for the world what is Christian nor do they speak for the majority of Christians.  

Edited June 9, 2015 by Absolom

[bubbls]

and the Jesus Prayer means something else entirely to Eastern Orthodox than it does to evangelicals and

What is the Jesus prayer? I grew in a similar atmosphere as the Duggars but I've never heard of this thing.

How does it differ in meaning between evangelicals vs. Eastern Orthodox? We were evangelical but since I've never heard of it I don't know what it's supposed to mean to evangelicals. I looked it up, and it appears to be more of a Catholic thing to me. I at first thought it was the prayer of salvation but it isn't from what I Googled. I'm confused.

[Absolom]

I took the fundie/evangelical meaning to be a prayer of salvation.  I had never heard that term used in connection with fundies/evangelicals until being on this forum.  

 

The Eastern Orthodox Jesus prayer has some variations, but a common version is use a prayer rope to pray decades of Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.  It's frequently used as a method of constant prayer or for meditative prayer.  

 

Catholics would be much more likely to pray the Hail Mary than the Jesus Prayer. At least I've only heard the Jesus Prayer in a lecture in a more Orthodox leaning Catholic parish, never in a more middle of the road Catholic parish.  

Edited June 9, 2015 by Absolom

[GEML]

I feel the need to remind people that you be actually Christian without believing in any of those items. :) Many denominations don't do door to door or in your face evangelism preferring life style evangelism, the apocalypse is not universally accepted, and the Jesus Prayer means something else entirely to Eastern Orthodox than it does to evangelicals and fundies.

It's because of the Duggars and their ilk, I feel the need to frequently say that they don't get to decide for the world what is Christian nor do they speak for the majority of Christians.

I actually meant to portray this and didn't. So thanks for making sure the point was made.

But even if the Founding Fathers were Christians in any spiritual sense, they still very much were culturally.

[bubbls]

I took the fundie/evangelical meaning to be a prayer of salvation. I had never heard that term used in connection with fundies/evangelicals until being on this forum

I'm 48 and have never once heard it as either a salvation prayer or heard anything called the Jesus Prayer. I will admit to having spent a lot of my church time daydreaming so maybe I missed it. I'm curious now and going to ask some relatives about it. Also, I haven't been in church in years. Maybe this Jesus Prayer thing is fairly new in evangelical circles.

Thanks for Your answers. Different religious beliefs are interesting to me.

Edited June 9, 2015 by bubbls

[Absolom]

Mr. Google produced the answer in Christianity Today.

 

Why not go with salvation prayer if the sinner's prayer was too blunt?  

Edited June 9, 2015 by Absolom

[JenCarroll]

Eh, I think if you asked them if they were Christian, they would have answered yes. And for more than just political expediency. There is such a thing as culturally Christian without believing in the whole idea of evangelism and the apocalypse and the Jesus prayer, many of which didn't even exist at the time of the Revolution. Both sides, to me, really go out of their way to make this a really politicized and self serving point when it's really not.

I'm fairly sure that specific denial of the divinity of Jesus makes you Not a Christian, but sure, as I said they generally attended church services. In any case, some of them left writings that speak directly to the question (not Washington; he was a deeply private person and is something of an enigma to history, but he was a known non-communicant). People can do their own research. We do know the founders intention was to create a secular nation. I don't think 18th century voters thought about it that much, in respect to political candidates. Apart from the evangelicals and the fundies (and it's unclear to me what percentage of voters fall in those groups) I don't know how much today's voters really care, either. But I'm not holding my breath that we'll see, say, a Jewish president in my lifetime.

Edited June 9, 2015 by JenCarroll

[Fallacy]

To be a Christian, to me, means to be a follower of Christ. I really think it's that simple. And I disagree that one can be culturally Christian; one either believes in the deity of Christ or not. Yes, the rest is all doctrine, dominations, etc, but the basic belief in the life, crucifixion, and resurrection of Christ is what makes one a Christian, I would argue.

[Churchhoney]

To be a Christian, to me, means to be a follower of Christ. I really think it's that simple. And I disagree that one can be culturally Christian; one either believes in the deity of Christ or not. Yes, the rest is all doctrine, dominations, etc, but the basic belief in the life, crucifixion, and resurrection of Christ is what makes one a Christian, I would argue.

 

This covers a lot, but it still leaves one wondering what to say about Th. Jefferson, for example. He explicitly rejected the divinity of Jesus but also said that the recorded utterances of Jesus constituted the most sublime system of morality that ever had been constructed. So he clearly saw himself as a follower in the moral sense but as a non-follower if that implied that Jesus was divine in the sense that the supreme creator he believed in was divine.

 

Clearly in the Duggar sense this is Not a Christian. But for others, I think it's harder to know how to categorize somebody like this. (and I suspect that there are a heck of a lot of people like this, in Jefferson's time and today.) It really is complicated.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Jellybeans]

Interesting thread! My grandfather was a Christian who travelled down the Amazon River. When he came back, he fought with the Church Elders on what it meant to be a Christian. Surely those villagers were not doomed to hell from not knowing God, he said.

My other grandmother died in Pentecostal Church while doing her tongues...

[NextIteration]

Apart from the evangelicals and the fundies (and it's unclear to me what percentage of voters fall in those groups)

 

I get the sense that it is 25% of the "electorate".  I'll make my case for this, when Bush left office his approval rating was around 25%, and when polled around 25% think that the rapture is coming very soon.

 

Back to purgatory, wasn't there recently a new doctrine announced that let babies that had not yet been baptized out of purgatory?

 

And Jeffress thinks Catholics are a cult.

[GEML]

I'm in Europe now where you literally have conversations that go like this:

"So you're Catholic but don't believe in God?"

"Yes."

"So you wouldn't call yourself a Christian?"

"Of course I'm Christian. I told you, I'm Catholic!"

The difference is the "a" before the word "Christian" perhaps. But that seems a pretty semantic difference.

[Fallacy]

This covers a lot, but it still leaves one wondering what to say about Th. Jefferson, for example. He explicitly rejected the divinity of Jesus but also said that the recorded utterances of Jesus constituted the most sublime system of morality that ever had been constructed. So he clearly saw himself as a follower in the moral sense but as a non-follower if that implied that Jesus was divine in the sense that the supreme creator he believed in was divine.

 

Clearly in the Duggar sense this is Not a Christian. But for others, I think it's harder to know how to categorize somebody like this. (and I suspect that there are a heck of a lot of people like this, in Jefferson's time and today.) It really is complicated.

If Jefferson rejected the divinity of Christ, he rejected the core tenet of Christianity: https://carm.org/essential-doctrines-of-christianity

And I'm guessing every church leader in America would agree. The divinity of Christ is not up for debate in the religion. Thus, if one does not agree with the central tenet of the religion, one can't claim membership within it.

[JennyMominFL]

re babies and Purgatory. The Catholic Church taught that unbaptized babies went to limbo, not purgatory.. Limbo has gone bye bye as an idea. Purgatory, not so

[bluebonnet]

Being culturally Christian isn't the same as being Christian in the way we are discussing.  An atheist in America today can be considered culturally Christian if she celebrates Christmas, for example.  Going to church was like the founding father's version of today's self-declared atheist celebrating Christmas.  It's something that one is expected to do, especially if they have children or are part of a certain community, unless there are valid excuses such as being of a different religion.  The founding fathers were generally not Christian in the way we are discussing here, though they lived in a very christian culture as we continue to do today.  There is a ton of revisionism that goes on with these old geezers, with conservative christians claiming them for their own when it's so obviously not the case.  

[NextIteration]

re babies and Purgatory. The Catholic Church taught that unbaptized babies went to limbo, not purgatory.. Limbo has gone bye bye as an idea. Purgatory, not so

 

My bad, see how lapsed I am, I thought limbo was Purgatory.

[JennyMominFL]

My bad, see how lapsed I am, I thought limbo was Purgatory.

Oh, I highly doubt you are as lapsed as me,lol

[mbutterfly]

If Jefferson rejected the divinity of Christ, he rejected the core tenet of Christianity: https://carm.org/essential-doctrines-of-christianity

And I'm guessing every church leader in America would agree. The divinity of Christ is not up for debate in the religion. Thus, if one does not agree with the central tenet of the religion, one can't claim membership within it.

And my experience is that every church leader in America is going to agree on almost nothing. We pass each other along the road going to our various church buildings, and inside those doors we, quite subtly if you're not listening for it, speak different languages. This isn't a criticism nor a cynical remark, we just are so steeped in our traditions. Then people denomination-hop, and they kind of tune out what they hear that is foreign to their earlier traditions. Or they believe the pastor has given a creative and original insight into a scripture (rather than the more likely speaking very much in the denomination's usual view of that scripture.) Or some people are overwhelmed by cognitive dissonance, and they have a crisis of faith. That's been my observation anyway. 

Edited June 9, 2015 by mbutterfly

[Fallacy]

This discussion reminds me of one I had with a family member who claimed she was Christian because her parents were even though she didn't believe that Jesus ever existed as either a human being or a deity.

[NextIteration]

Coming back around to the political somewhat, I think Jefferson was a deist, not a Christian.  My congress-critter, took his oath of office on Jefferson's copy of the Qurʾan.  I think it's amazing that his position was culturally acceptable and obviously admirable at the time, given where we are over 200 years later.

Edited June 10, 2015 by NextIteration

[Churchhoney]

If Jefferson rejected the divinity of Christ, he rejected the core tenet of Christianity: https://carm.org/essential-doctrines-of-christianity

And I'm guessing every church leader in America would agree. The divinity of Christ is not up for debate in the religion. Thus, if one does not agree with the central tenet of the religion, one can't claim membership within it.

 

Yeah, I agree. Jefferson agreed, too, I believe. He didn't claim to be a Christian, so far as I know,  but a deist.

 

However, my sense is that a lot of other people are more likely to call themselves Christians and yet believe pretty much what he did, especially in the 21st century. I think many sort of expand the definition on their own, maybe because they fear not to be in what's perceived to be in the American mainstream -- believing Christian?

 

I mean -- people don't think to call themselves deists, now. And many seem not to want to call themselves moralists on the Christian pattern but agnostic about some other things -- which probably accurate for many.

[Happyfatchick]

...we just are so steeped in our traditions. Then people denomination-hop, and they kind of tune out what they hear that is foreign to their earlier traditions. Or they believe the pastor has given a creative and original insight into a scripture (rather than the more likely speaking very much in the denomination's usual view of that scripture.)

This is a profound synopsis, and I love it. I love the whole discussion, and have commented before when you guys were talking about religious topics (that one had to do with orthodoxy and Jewish culture I believe). I'm TRYING to get you to continue, and you always stop! I learn so much when people share viewpoints, values and traditions and do it respectfully but knowledgeably. Makes me think, and I appreciate it.

As it turns out, MB, I did attend a denomination other than my background for a time and enjoyed it thoroughly. (Moved too far away to travel that distance regularly). I was a denomination hopper! And I never ONCE considered that they were saying something different than my traditional background - I either tuned out the differences or considered it a creative way to fit what I already believed. Granted, it really wasn't a huge leap theologically, but it is thought provoking the way you expressed that.

You have probably all heard this before, but the pastor used to say, "I don't know if I believe what you believe, but I believe YOU believe what you believe".

I was surprised to read in a post that John Adams and JQA were not considered to be Christians. And I had no idea what was meant by Eastern Orthodoxy. You guys have had me bopping back and forth from here to Google for a couple hours! Another evening shot!!!

[mbutterfly]

As it turns out, MB, I did attend a denomination other than my background for a time and enjoyed it thoroughly. (Moved too far away to travel that distance regularly). I was a denomination hopper! And I never ONCE considered that they were saying something different than my traditional background - I either tuned out the differences or considered it a creative way to fit what I already believed. Granted, it really wasn't a huge leap theologically, but it is thought provoking the way you expressed that.

You have probably all heard this before, but the pastor used to say, "I don't know if I believe what you believe, but I believe YOU believe what you believe".

 

I love your pastor's quote, and I believe it. 

[bubbls]

Mr. Google produced the answer in Christianity Today.

Why not go with salvation prayer if the sinner's prayer was too blunt?

Yes, thank you, I read that this afternoon. I don't have a problem with either. I'm just extremely curious that I'd never heard of either that specific prayer nor anything called a Jesus Prayer in all 38 years of my evangelical exposure. We were regular Baptist, hard core Baptist (no pants for girls and all that), nondenominational, Assembly of God, and charismatic and I've never heard it. I also spent a few years in private Christian schools with varying levels of legalism. I'm pretty confident if it was a thing (back then) I'd have heard it referred to or spoken.

I don't watch the Duggars. Do they refer to it?

Edited June 10, 2015 by bubbls

[Happyfatchick]

The Duggs would refer to the prayer as "the sinners prayer". I've been (admittedly) a weak Duggars watcher, but I doubt any reference to the sinners prayer would have made airwaves. TLC doesn't hide the fact that they pray, and it COULDN'T hide the Bibles (the big floppy ones - even my evangelical Christian family referred to them growing up as "his 25 lb. King James".). But no way we're they going to capture them marching through THE PRAYER. [although I could be wrong...if so, I apologize for being presumptuous.]

And I'd have to agree with you - my parents started a church in their living room when I was an infant, and I've been attending some variety of evangelical church for all my 55 years and have never heard that referred to as "the Jesus prayer". I'm not doubting it, I just never heard it.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[Sew Sumi]

No, any praying they show the Duggars do is basic meal prayers or prayers for special people, ie. a prayer for Jill when she went in for her c-section. Prayers for Derick and Jill's engagement, etc. Even when they used to show them during Bible time, I remember a simple bible lesson for the littles and asking around if there was anyone they needed to pray for. I don't remember them ever doing formal prayers on camera. 

[Rhondinella]

Hey, ya'll.  As interesting and educational this conversation has been, the stuff about politics, deists, the Founding Fathers and current or past presidents really isn't directly relevant to the Duggars and their religion.  I don't mind a little latitude in here, but I think we're pretty off track now.  So let's try to reign it in, ok?  Thanks.

 

(And also, thanks for being such great posters in this thread.  Very respectful, genuinely interested in learning about other viewpoints and practices.  You're all pretty swell!)

[DangerousMinds]

I'm 48 and have never once heard it as either a salvation prayer or heard anything called the Jesus Prayer. I will admit to having spent a lot of my church time daydreaming so maybe I missed it. I'm curious now and going to ask some relatives about it. Also, I haven't been in church in years. Maybe this Jesus Prayer thing is fairly new in evangelical circles.

Thanks for Your answers. Different religious beliefs are interesting to me.

Age 47 here, raised Catholic, church and CCD every week, and I'm just hearing of much of this now. First I heard about the idea of the "rapture" was in the 1990 Mimi Rogers movie "The Rapture." Parishes were concerned with doing good works, taking care of the poor and ill, etc. No Old Testament BS.

[DangerousMinds]

This is a profound synopsis, and I love it. I love the whole discussion, and have commented before when you guys were talking about religious topics (that one had to do with orthodoxy and Jewish culture I believe). I'm TRYING to get you to continue, and you always stop! I learn so much when people share viewpoints, values and traditions and do it respectfully but knowledgeably. Makes me think, and I appreciate it.

As it turns out, MB, I did attend a denomination other than my background for a time and enjoyed it thoroughly. (Moved too far away to travel that distance regularly). I was a denomination hopper! And I never ONCE considered that they were saying something different than my traditional background - I either tuned out the differences or considered it a creative way to fit what I already believed. Granted, it really wasn't a huge leap theologically, but it is thought provoking the way you expressed that.

You have probably all heard this before, but the pastor used to say, "I don't know if I believe what you believe, but I believe YOU believe what you believe".

I was surprised to read in a post that John Adams and JQA were not considered to be Christians. And I had no idea what was meant by Eastern Orthodoxy. You guys have had me bopping back and forth from here to Google for a couple hours! Another evening shot!!!

Try this blog:

http://fiddlrts.blogspot.com/2015/05/what-i-mean-by-fundamentalism.html

It opened my eyes to a lot that I had never been aware of.

Sorry mods, just saw your post about curtailing the religion discussion,

[JenCarroll]

Rhondinella, can we do this conversation in the small talk thread? Just curious; I don't have anything specific to add right now, but it seems to keep coming up.

[Chalby]

So confessing in from of the whole conregation is bizarre to me. Why would you want strangers to know your business?

 

I was raised Anglican, and I found this strange as well - too 'familiar' for my liking. I also had friends who would invite me to their church sermons, and I found that many of them would want people to come to the front of the church if they 'had accepted Jesus into their hearts". I still remember feeling so embarrassed because I did not want to go up to the front, yet I really stood out in the congregation as most of the teens and young adults had gone up. I can't remember the two faith groups I attended, maybe one was Baptist? Is anyone else familiar with this expectation?

[Abstract]

I was raised Anglican, and I found this strange as well - too 'familiar' for my liking. I also had friends who would invite me to their church sermons, and I found that many of them would want people to come to the front of the church if they 'had accepted Jesus into their hearts". I still remember feeling so embarrassed because I did not want to go up to the front, yet I really stood out in the congregation as most of the teens and young adults had gone up. I can't remember the two faith groups I attended, maybe one was Baptist? Is anyone else familiar with this expectation?

Standard operating procedure in Baptist and Pentecostal denominations and any others that don't baptize infants.

[Chalby]

I do know that not all Protestant denominations do the "born again" and accepting Jesus as your personal savior thing. 

 

I agree, I always found the Protestant to be a little more conservative. I always thought the ones that encouraged being 'born again' were called fundamentalists?

[frenchtoast]

Rhondinella, can we do this conversation in the small talk thread? Just curious; I don't have anything specific to add right now, but it seems to keep coming up.

I don't think Rhondinella would mind me answering for her. Personal stories and impressions of religion could most certainly be discussed (with the requisite being very respectful of other's viewpoints etc) in the Small Talk area. 

 

Talking about how religions operate especially vis a vis the Duggars and Fundamentalism. (I am by no means a religion scholar, so I'll let Rhondinella that sound better than it does.)

 

Hope that makes sense :)

[Chalby]

 I thought I felt the hand of god on my shoulder, as a sign to re-accept him into my heart and be born again.  I brushed it off."  

Great story, thanks for sharing.

[Chalby]

(Wry tone) when's the last time we had a non believer in the White House?

I have always wondered about politicians' faith and their true commitment to attending church PRIOR to entering politics. I'd love to see what faith they were ascribing to while being a 'regular joe' (if any).

[Chalby]

What is the Jesus prayer? I grew in a similar atmosphere as the Duggars but I've never heard of this thing.

 

Hey, you made me wonder about something... The prayer "Our father who art in heaven..." is a prayer to God, rather than Jesus, right? Growing up, I was exploring belief modifications as I believed in 'God", and I believed Christ existed and was followed, but I didn't fully accept his 'divinity'. So, I have always considered myself a 'Christian" but now I am wondering, was I? What is my ilk referred to , if not Christian? And please don't answer, 'sinner', lol.

Standard operating procedure in Baptist and Pentecostal denominations and any others that don't baptize infants.

Thanks for jogging my memory - Pentecostal was definitely one.

[melanie]

I think that if you consider yourself to be a Christian, then no one else has the right to tell you that you are not.  Different people have their beliefs about what being a Christian means, but that is between the individual and God.  I do not think we have to justify how we define ourselves to anyone.  It is just a matter of being respectful and understanding that none of us is God and therefore we do not have all of the answers.