Gimme That Old Time Religion

[GEML]

I grew up in a Fundy home and have five generations of Fundy ministers. Believe me, I've heard every possible "going to hell" scenario you can imagine and then some.

When I talk about fundamentalism, it comes from a lifetime of study on the subject. Not just some anecdotes. If it makes you feel better that I use the word Hasidism instead of Orthodox Jewish fringe, fine. But to deny there are subset in Judaism when there are individuals who deny a "get" (religious divorce) to a woman being abused by her husband isn't being honest about the fullness of that religion, which is what it is, not just what we would like it to be.

[questionfear]

I grew up in a Fundy home and have five generations of Fundy ministers. Believe me, I've heard every possible "going to hell" scenario you can imagine and then some.

When I talk about fundamentalism, it comes from a lifetime of study on the subject. Not just some anecdotes. If it makes you feel better that I use the word Hasidism instead of Orthodox Jewish fringe, fine. But to deny there are subset in Judaism when there are individuals who deny a "get" (religious divorce) to a woman being abused by her husband isn't being honest about the fullness of that religion, which is what it is, not just what we would like it to be.

That's true, and there's no love lost between me and the Hasidim. Trust me. I just think that in many ways they are evolving into their own sect of Judaism outside of even the orthodox. And there's very little fundamentalism outside of the Hasidim, at least in American Judaism-I do know the dynamics are far different in Israel for example.

Also, GEML, I know you understand the dynamics well-I guess I just wanted to make sure it was clear for the posters who see all Jews as people wearing black hats and coats, and I feared they're reading this and thinking "you can get more fundie than THAT?" :)

[JenCarroll]

like the time a coworker at Panera Bread told me I had the devil in my soul, she prayed for me nightly, and she gave me a book on how to become an ex gay so I didn't go to hell-the cover had the gayest guy and butchiest woman I have ever seen awkwardly holding hands)

That's actually kind of hilarious. The pray-away-the-gay folks are a miserable bunch, and their position is inherently offensive, but sometimes they are just so dumb that you can only laugh at them.

[Happyfatchick]

I wonder whether we partly get this impression of Protestant fundamentalists because the ones we most often hear about aren't just fundamentalist believers but also are heavily involved in some other cultish subgroup whose beliefs and activities go way beyond what we'd consider truly bible-derived and into legalistic tangles created by Gothard and his ilk. Quiverfull thinking and some others come to mind as well. These things aren't so much fundamentalism as they're fundamentalism PLUS -- fundamentalism layered over with some other set of beliefs and practices that were devised to attract the most fearful and control-freakish of the group.

This whole discussion was fascinating, I had to read it more than once. Thank you to all who had something to say, and said it with tolerance and equality.

Seems to me that we all have "some" background - some foundation for our belief system that makes us who we are. I was raised Protestant (baptist) just a hair north of fundamental (no dance, no drink, no mingling with people outside our accepted "set", intolerance of people not "like" us) - and with a mix of my dad's Amish background and rigid stoic unwavering center axis. It is just fascinating and amazing to read other people's cultures and religious backgrounds to see how it shapes their perceptions of what happens currently.

And I think Churchhoney nailed it, essentially. We probably couldn't find a thing in the world to argue with about fundamentalists in general. The problem comes from what you labeled "control freakishness". My brother and his wife are fundie (without the fun). I don't care that he's got a stricter "life" code than me; our moral values are the same. We don't lie, cheat or steal. Don't lie on our tax returns, we tithe, support missionaries, pray, we don't covet our neighbors "stuff" (or his wife). Greet strangers, support the needy, and on and on. Our BASIC belief system is the same. My brother is not a "progressive" Christian. These are Christians that hold to the belief that whatever happened up to "x" time period is as progressive as we can be. Beyond "x" in history is worldly.

Which is one of the things that bothers me about the Amish. "Worldly" things will get you judged and sent to hell in a hurry. Some of them, the lowest of the low order, adhere very tightly to the world as it was when Ammon first veered off and formed the Amish sect. When the religion was formed, men wore barndoor pants with suspenders, and buggies were the mode of transportation. Therefore, the least progressive Amish still wear barndoor pants and drive buggies, and state has to fight with them to put safety reflectors on. But if you think about it, at "SOME" point in history, a Buggy* was an amazing boost to transportation. It was a new and exciting contraption. What made THAT be the starting point? I mean, if you TRULY don't want to be worldly, ride a horse or walk.

Independent fundamental Baptists have the same sticking point for me. My brother wouldn't be caught DEAD without a tie at church, for example. Because at some point ("x" in history), men wore TIES to worship. Even to "prayer meeting" on Wednesday nights. Why is the Baptist midweek service on Wednesday (and all our local Methodists do midweek on Tuesday)? And WHY do they have to go to church TWICE on Sunday? Why why why??? I played piano for church for THIRTY YEARS and trotted to church twice every Sunday the whole time. (It was a big big day for me when I said, "I'm not DOING Sunday nights any more. You show that to me in the Bible and I'll EAT it!")

The other thing, and the thing that drives me UP A WALL, is that the very fundamental Baptists are prone to hold their leader in (my opinion) amazingly high esteem. It seems like every subject that comes up, my bro automatically wants to confer with Brother Tom, his pastor. Things are far more apt to reach God's ears, apparently, if "I'll have Bother Tom pray about that". What? When I was young, our church body did the same thing with our pastor. The church split, in fact, when someone dared to rightfully question his judgement.

I babysat an extremely fundamental couple's children before I had children of my own. They completely adhered to the MAN of the family is The King, and the firstborn SON is The King in Training. That oldest kid got away with murder, and some days, murder seemed like a pretty fair option (jk, of course).

True story: we lived in opposite sides of a duplex. When they came to look at the place prior to moving in, I walked up on them in the dark on the porch. No light was on, and we were fumbling trying to get through introductions while I was trying to get the door open and turn the light on. The young father says to me (proclaimed it LOUDLY, in fact), "this is TONY. He's FOUR, and he's been SAVED already!!!!" Ooooookay. This was his second line to me, after introducing himself. FOUR??? What, exactly did Tony-the-4-year-old commit to be saved of or from? (Keep in mind, I was raised about 1/4 inch away from that very mindset, and even I thought 4 was BIZARRE!)

Meanwhile, I literally tripped over another little somebody in the dark. There was some shuffling and apologies, and the dad says (I kid you not), "that's Robbie. He's 2. He ain't saved yet." This family, too, was freakishly obsessed with their pastor.

I personally think THAT pastor obsession thing may be the main difference between fundamental Baptists and mainstream progressive Baptists. We DON'T tend to believe our leader (pastor - FATHER in the Duggar's case) is infallible. We consider him to be human and capable of mistakes. We want him to lead, yes, but he is not above question. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, I'm just saying this is where we are, that's all. I wouldn't be comfortable AT ALL in a church where the pastor is above question.

According to that lengthy and wonderful post earlier today about cults, it takes 1) a narcissist to start down the trail and 2) somebody following that person. I don't think fundamentalism is bad at all, and I greatly admire those people who are willing to swim the other way in the stream. I admire the Amish in so many ways, even when I am easily able to poke holes in their religion. It IS the legalism and the traditionalism that gets me. SHOW it to me. Show it to me in the Bible.

*we call my oldest granddaughter "Buggy" and spellcheck won't let me lower case that B anymore! Haha!

[mbutterfly]

This is mostly a (I hope) funny little story, but I relate it in my mind to many Christians' views on fundamentalism. During my 4 kids teen years, I was already a teacher with an MA but I decided to go back to school for an MDiv. It was rather arduous because I received my text books in about January from my seminary. I read and wrote papers until summer when I would go stay on campus for 2 weeks. Even with all this, my kids (like their friends) would speak of mothers who were Pentecostal or Mennonite or others deep in the Holiness movement as being "really religious." And strangely because of our mutual culture, I kind of felt the same way when I saw the skirts and uncut hair and bonnets. We Christians are really kind of funny people. 

[GEML]

LOL - the joke growing up was that a Holiness person would be afraid to tell you the time for fear his watch might be wrong and he'd be called out for lying.

[questionfear]

So this is a great example of what I meant by Orthodox Jews not being Hasidim, and why it's far more common to see Jews distance themselves from Hasidim: http://forward.com/opinion/national/309145/in-east-ramapo-an-immoral-use-of-jewish-power/

This was written by an Orthodox Jew, and reform and conservative Jews are all in agreement that what's happening there is wrong and not a reflection of Judaism at all. And why orthodox doesn't mean fundie in the Jewish world.

[Gianthambeast]

Sorry if this post is OT, but I had to get it off my chest.  I hate Got-hard so much.  I feel like he built a "religion" around his own sexual fetishes-- like at some point in his life he was rejected by a woman with long wavy tresses, a jean skirt, and sandals, and his goal became to reproduce this type of woman in every one of his female followers . Add to this his weird bondage fantasies of this woman NOT ever being able to reject him but totally submissive, pliant, and gazing up at him in perpetual adoration, and all his bullshit injunctions  about the female  "countenance" really begin to make sense.  He then covers this misogynistic mess with a dubious patina of scripture and  voila--ATI is born!  I don't think it's a coincidence that a lot of guys in this cult are Men's Rights advocates.   For them Gothard must seem like a godsend-- a charismatic leader who has codified all their male fantasies into a pseudo-religious doctrine that masquerades as a path of virtue, rather then the enactment of a perversion.

 

I mean, look at Blob--  the only way he could gain "mastery" over a bunch of women is to use Gothardite mental coercion...

Edited June 3, 2015 by Gianthambeast

[GEML]

Of course, there are plenty of articles (and an entire book) written by Christians) against Gothard. And The Church of Latter Day Saints has written extensively about distancing themselves from the FLDS. (To name one that might be more well known.) But where does one draw the line? It's clear to me that Bill Gothard comes out of a American Protestant (specifically Baptist) tradition, even if it's now a warped one. It's not a separate religion from mine just because I don't like it.

[Gianthambeast]

But where does one draw the line? .

Westboro Baptist Church?  Clansmen claiming that a burning cross symbolizes the light of Christ?

Edited June 3, 2015 by Gianthambeast

[GEML]

To me personally, those are still offshoots of American Protestantism. It's sociological to me. Having grown up judging this person and that person's soul, I stopped doing that a long time ago. Are the Duggars going to get into heaven? I have no idea. Do they fit into a long standing tradition of American Protestant, specifically Baptist religious practice? Yes, they do.

[Churchhoney]

Meanwhile, back at the ATI, Bill G decides to non-apologize apologize for some of his actions, but then thinks better of it. However, he fails to take into account that newfangled invention -- screen captures.

 

https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2015/06/03/bill-gothards-unveils-new-statement-then-promptly-deletes-it/

 

Short Version: I touched those girls because I am so perfect.

 

Bonus: Use of "purpose" as a verb, straight from the horse's (ass's) mouth.

 

BG:

 

'It recently came to light that part of the problem actually began as a result of a decision I made as a teenager. I had just read Fox’s Book of Martyrs. It had a deep impact on me as I read the accounts of those who had died for their faith. Suddenly, I sensed God was asking me, “Bill, will you also die for me?” I considered what this would mean and then said, “Lord, right now I purpose to live and die for you.”

 

'...Something happened within me when I made that commitment. I experienced a new sense of energy, freedom and motivation. I pictured myself in a race against time. My concern was, “how much can I get done for the Lord before I die?” In the years that followed, I initiated many programs to reach young people.

Soon my “normal day” began at 4 am and went until 11 pm....

 

'Meanwhile, I would be energized by my counseling sessions. Each young person at the Headquarters was there because either their parents had asked me to work with them, or I saw special potential in them to be effective for the Lord. When I would counsel a young lady I would need to find out what her problems were, but I avoided specific details of her actual wrongdoing. In affirming these young ladies a bond was established,that in some cases was different than I had intended.

 

'Many of these young ladies told me that I was their “spiritual father.” I accepted this position with joy and delight. Even today, many remind me of this status with them. However, when I felt that a young lady was spiritually strong I began to work with another one. The first one would feel neglected and in some cases rejected. This was hurtful to them.'

 

 

ETA: This wins non-apology apology debating trophy for Best Use of Fox's Book of Martyrs.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Churchhoney

[ChiCricket]

 They made us watch "Thief in the Night" and "Sound of Thunder".  It scared me so much as a kid (this was in the 70s, mind you), that I was going to be boiled alive in hot oil. .

I looked these up to see what they are about, and I can see why (in their minds) they thought it was good to show you "Thief in the night"

(A woman (Patty Dunning) has a religious awakening after discovering that her husband and millions more have vanished overnight.)

But why in the world did they show you "The Sound of thunder?"

(In the year 2055, greedy entrepreneur Charles Hatton (Ben Kingsley) makes a fortune with his company, Time Safari Inc., which allows millionaires to travel back to the prehistoric era to hunt dinosaurs. Strict regulations are in place so that the present is not altered. But, during one time-travel safari, a hunter steps on a butterfly and unleashes a drastic ripple effect through time. Now researcher Dr. Travis Ryer (Edward Burns) must travel back to prevent the source of the disruption.)

Do I have the wrong movie? That's the only one I could find with that title.

BTW, to be fair, adults make dumb mistakes (we're human after all) but kids can't UN-see stuff like movies.

I'll never stop hearing from my daughter how scared she got from me taking her to see JAWS when she was nine. To this day she won't put a toe in the ocean, and she's in her forties now.

I was so clueless as a very young mom sometimes, which is why I don't think this cult's "marry really young stance" is a good thing.

[GEML]

A Thief in the Night was pretty tame to me. Some rousing sermons and my own imagination were much more horrifying. But THE HIDING PLACE when I was eight was pretty terrifying. I can still pack a suitcase in five minutes if the Nazis come for us. :)

[GEML]

(Disgusted) oh for pity's sake!

[JoanArc]

 

'Many of these young ladies told me that I was their “spiritual father.” I accepted this position with joy and delight. Even today, many remind me of this status with them. However, when I felt that a young lady was spiritually strong I began to work with another one. The first one would feel neglected and in some cases rejected. This was hurtful to them.'

FFS!

 

I'm glad the old bastard lived long enough to see his empire crumbled and ridiculed by the masses. It's not done yet, and there's always sad sacks lining up for membership, but this is the man who built a landing strip for Airforce One on his property!

[ChiCricket]

Yeah, The diary of Anne Frank scared the crap out of me. I read some books way too young because I was so bored with the ones meant for my age.

Also got really scared at the Nazi scenes in the Sound of Music when I was young.

Ironically, one of my daughters converted to Judaism when she got married....And then I heard first hand how many of her husband's family died in the holocaust. :(

[msblossom]

GEML, I didn't see The Hiding Place until I was about 30. I think we actually might still have it on VHS, or I donated it to the Goodwill since we haven't had a VCR for probably 10 years. I can see why you'd be frightened watching it as an 8 year-old! Sheesh, that's a heavy movie for a lot of adults. I do love Corrie ten Boom.

[GEML]

I will say that Corie ten Boom has kept me a Christian when almost no one else could have.

[sometimesy]

So all those girls were jealous of the time he spent with others and started spreading rumours around homeschool?

[Churchhoney]

So all those girls were jealous of the time he spent with others and started spreading rumours around homeschool?

 

I guess that's how he got to be one of the martyrs.

[GEML]

Most of them left - that just "proves" they weren't worthy. Poor Billy. All that time he spent with them too.

[RazzleberryPie]

So..........instead of asking a girl directly what her "sin" was, he placed a system that required them to narc on each other?

And.........*drumroll*

He liked it when they called him Big Poppa? BG is an OG? *GAGVOMITWRETCHPUKEHEAVE*

[MargeGunderson]

Meanwhile, back at the ATI, Bill G decides to non-apologize apologize for some of his actions, but then thinks better of it. However, he fails to take into account that newfangled invention -- screen captures.

 

'Many of these young ladies told me that I was their “spiritual father.” I accepted this position with joy and delight. Even today, many remind me of this status with them. However, when I felt that a young lady was spiritually strong I began to work with another one. The first one would feel neglected and in some cases rejected. This was hurtful to them.'

 

 

ETA: This wins non-apology apology debating trophy for Best Use of Fox's Book of Martyrs.

I also think it wins the Grand Champion "you're just jealous" crown. For all time.

[Churchhoney]

So..........instead of asking a girl directly what her "sin" was, he placed a system that required them to narc on each other?

And.........*drumroll*

He liked it when they called him Big Poppa? BG is an OG? *GAGVOMITWRETCHPUKEHEAVE*

 

Kinda makes it clear how the Duggars learned be such liars, manipulators, users, self-excusers and all-around sleazes, does it not?

[SopranoKris]

I looked these up to see what they are about, and I can see why (in their minds) they thought it was good to show you "Thief in the night"

(A woman (Patty Dunning) has a religious awakening after discovering that her husband and millions more have vanished overnight.)

But why in the world did they show you "The Sound of thunder?"

(In the year 2055, greedy entrepreneur Charles Hatton (Ben Kingsley) makes a fortune with his company, Time Safari Inc., which allows millionaires to travel back to the prehistoric era to hunt dinosaurs. Strict regulations are in place so that the present is not altered. But, during one time-travel safari, a hunter steps on a butterfly and unleashes a drastic ripple effect through time. Now researcher Dr. Travis Ryer (Edward Burns) must travel back to prevent the source of the disruption.)

Do I have the wrong movie? That's the only one I could find with that title.

BTW, to be fair, adults make dumb mistakes (we're human after all) but kids can't UN-see stuff like movies.

I'll never stop hearing from my daughter how scared she got from me taking her to see JAWS when she was nine. To this day she won't put a toe in the ocean, and she's in her forties now.

I was so clueless as a very young mom sometimes, which is why I don't think this cult's "marry really young stance" is a good thing.

 

No, that's the wrong "Sound of Thunder".  It was a movie that was made in the 70s just for viewing at Baptist churches.  It was shown on a projector reel.  I've never seen a copy available on video.  It didn't have any actors that were well known, or even semi-well known.  It was a story of what happens to the people left behind after the rapture occurs.  They basically try to scare you in to becoming a Christian because look at all the awful things that will happen to you if you wait until it's too late.  They had a beheading and someone put in boiling oil in the movie because they became Christians after the rapture and the people with "the mark" were torturing people who refused to get "the mark".  How in the world is that appropriate for kids to see?  Like I said....total nightmares as a kid!!!!

[Quilt Fairy]

From the article about Jewish fundamentalism (or whatever you want to call it) mentioned upthread:

 

Religious liberty used to mean, roughly, “Live and let live.” Now, it is said to mean, “I don’t have to obey your rules.”

I'm going to take it one step further and add: "And my way is the only way and I'm going to work towards getting a government that agrees with me and restricts your right to do anything that isn't my way."  I fear the Duggars. I really do. And I'm not gay or one of their other targeted groups. I'm just a single woman who came of age in the 70s, went to college and supported herself all her adult life. I remember a time pre-Roe v. Wade. I remember fighting for respect in a male-dominated career field. And I see the liberties that I value as an American being eroded by the Christian Right because they may not have the numbers, but they have the loudest damn voice. *\end rant*

 

It's not for mere mortals to know. You need the Super Gothard Decoder Ring. Or the divining powers of TFDW. :D

A few weeks ago I read an article by a man who grew up ATI/IBLP. (Sorry, I've looked and looked and I can't find the link again.) Anyhow, this article was about analyzing the Wisdom booklets and how they make no logical sense. They're just random phrases that are supposed to be making a point supported by Bible quotes taken out of context and Biblical references that if you look them up don't necessarily have anything to do with the subject he's talking about.

 

Recovering Grace reports that Gothard has a new website: http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2015/06/bill-gothards-new-website/

[Churchhoney]

Homeschoolers Anonymous is assembling the Wisdom Booklets online. Just in case anyone feels in need of some, you know, wisdom.

 

https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2015/05/31/wisdom-booklet-archive-index/

[Bella]

A religion question started swirling around in my brain right before the interview last night.

 

I was raised Catholic. If we sinned, we went to confession, which has already been discussed here recently. Also, the religious training I received from the priest, nuns, and my parents emphasized that if you committed a sin after the priest forgave you in confession, you weren't sincere and that meant you still had work to do on your soul. 

 

So I now read these statements from people in other religious traditions saying that God has forgiven them. And my question is, how do they know? How do we know that God has forgiven Josh, for example? If he feels forgiven, maybe that's him believing what he wants to believe, or believing the part of his brain that he wants to hear. I had a pint of cinnamon ice cream yesterday, for example. Part of my brain told me not to eat it all at once because it's not healthy to do so. Another little internal voice told me that I should because of stress and I've hit my weight loss goal for the year and I deserve a treat. I was in the position of picking which voice to listen to (and the ice cream is gone!).

 

How does someone know that God has forgiven them and that it's not just their brain telling them what they want to hear?

[kalamac]

I say people can believe all they want that God forgives, and that he'll stand in judgement of them after they die, but as long they're still alive they should accept their Earthly punishments for crimes they committed down here.

[NextIteration]

One of the precepts of the Catholic religion is that you go to purgatory and everyone left behind has to pray you into heaven - I might not have that quite right, but whatever understanding I had of the concept is what made me chuck it finally as a religion.  I think people are wholly responsible for the wrongs they do (sins that they commit) and need to make them right of their own free will.  For me, if there is a heaven and a god or an angel at the pearly gates that decides whether we stay or get sent to the other place, it should be based on the whole of our lives, whether our intentions were good and whether we made good on our promise to do better and make amends for our sins (the bad choices me made or bad things that we did).

[kassygreene]

A religion question started swirling around in my brain right before the interview last night.

 

I was raised Catholic. If we sinned, we went to confession, which has already been discussed here recently. Also, the religious training I received from the priest, nuns, and my parents emphasized that if you committed a sin after the priest forgave you in confession, you weren't sincere and that meant you still had work to do on your soul. 

 

So I now read these statements from people in other religious traditions saying that God has forgiven them. And my question is, how do they know? How do we know that God has forgiven Josh, for example? If he feels forgiven, maybe that's him believing what he wants to believe, or believing the part of his brain that he wants to hear. I had a pint of cinnamon ice cream yesterday, for example. Part of my brain told me not to eat it all at once because it's not healthy to do so. Another little internal voice told me that I should because of stress and I've hit my weight loss goal for the year and I deserve a treat. I was in the position of picking which voice to listen to (and the ice cream is gone!).

 

How does someone know that God has forgiven them and that it's not just their brain telling them what they want to hear?

I spent the ages 13-18 in The South (Nashville), and apparently I was perceived to be an easy target for being SAVED.  I guess I didn't look like a teenager who would throw a punch or a curse.  If I could get in and out of a shopping mall without at least one very earnest evangelical asking if I'd been SAVED, it meant I'd forgotten to get something on my list.  This was the early seventies, and I didn't perfect the ability to deflect such recruiting until years later, after the Airport movie taught me how to deal with airport missionaries (disclaimer: as an attitude, not a practice!).

 

I always found it morally troubling, that you could be SAVED once and you had a passkey to heaven, no matter what you subsequently did, because you'd done the right rituals and that was a lifetime guarantee.  I suspect that this is what made/makes it attractive to certain people.  I cynically believe that these people have no grasp of just how cynical that practice is.

[Muffyn]

One of the things that separates Catholicism from Protestantism is the catholic belief that access to heaven is based on both belief in god/holy trinity and good works.  So being “saved” is not enough.  This is counter to the forms of Protestantism that focus on being “born again” and accepting Jesus as your personal savior to earn eternity in heaven. 

 

The catholic church did get rid of the idea of purgatory.  So now you’ve either earned heaven or you’re going to hell – no more doing time in purgatory paying for your sins while you await entrance to heaven.  When I was young, to be forgiven you had to go to confession.  Then you had to stay clear of sin until you took communion.  When confession was held on Saturday and mass was Sunday, there was always an issue of people not going up to receive communion.  You now say an act of contrition during mass which clears you of sin (as long as you are sincere in your contrition) thereby allowing access to communion, or basically allowing everyone to participate in a ritual that is critical to the establishment of the community and agreement with the beliefs of that community. 

 

The understanding is still that you cannot be forgiven for a sin you plan to continue doing.  So if I cheated on my spouse, did an act of contrition or went to confession and presented that sin and did whatever the priest told me to do for absolution, I would not be absolved if I planned to continue cheating. 

 

Having explained this, I can say as an atheist I don’t believe any of it.  Perhaps because I was raised catholic I do appreciate the focus on good deeds rather than simply being saved and having a personal relationship with god.  All religions set standards of acceptable behavior.  However, those religions or specific churches that hold themselves as being so much better than others by attacking other groups cause so much damage in the world and to their members.  They keep people ignorant while telling them they are superior.  That gives us the Duggars and their ilk.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Muffyn

[HeyNow]

A cheeky aside...

Seen on a bumper sticker:  Instead of being born again, why don't you just grow up?

[Bella]

 

Perhaps because I was raised catholic I do appreciate the focus on good deeds rather than simply being saved and having a personal relationship with god.

 

That's the one thing I've retained. Behavior matters.

[photo fox]

I saw a bumper sticker once that said, "born alright the first time", which gave my Catholic self a well-intentioned chuckle. Catholic or Protestant, good deeds or good thoughts, I think the goal is to be a better person in thoughts AND deeds. That's how I was raised, anyway.

My understanding on those topics is the same as yours, Muffyn. Confession has to be made sincerely, including a sincere intention to "sin no more". Most Catholics I know, even practicing ones, don't really do old-fashioned confession anymore, even though the Church would still say it's necessary. I think a lot of people have made the same logic connection I made when I was 10, namely, if God is always present, and knows what's in my heart, can't I confess directly to Him? I believe I can.

(An aside, I live in a rural area, and most of our local priests don't even have a designated confessional time anymore, instead doing it by appointment. I always find it hilarious on TV shows that people can walk into a confessional - or even a Catholic church in general - and find a priest 24/7. Like they just sit there all day hoping someone stops by. Heh.)

[KatWay]

 

(An aside, I live in a rural area, and most of our local priests don't even have a designated confessional time anymore, instead doing it by appointment. I always find it hilarious on TV shows that people can walk into a confessional - or even a Catholic church in general - and find a priest 24/7. Like they just sit there all day hoping someone stops by. Heh.)

That always cracks me up too.

[Absolom]

 

This is counter to the forms of Protestantism that focus on being “born again” and accepting Jesus as your personal savior to earn eternity in heaven.

We need a theologian to show up and that isn't me.  I do know that not all Protestant denominations do the "born again" and accepting Jesus as your personal savior thing.  That's more a Baptist/evangelical deal from my experience.  Saved by grace and not by works is Protestant though.  It's trying to explain the difference in those two that may be beyond me.  

[galax-arena]

I do know that not all Protestant denominations do the "born again" and accepting Jesus as your personal savior thing.  That's more a Baptist/evangelical deal from my experience.  Saved by grace and not by works is Protestant though.  It's trying to explain the difference in those two that may be beyond me.

I believe there is a correlation with Protestant denominations that perform credobaptism as opposed to paedobaptism. Maybe not 100%, but the link is there. Although of course correlation does not equal causation; IIRC, credo vs paedo hinges more on whether the denomination believes in original sin or not. 

Edited June 4, 2015 by galax-arena

[GEML]

There are a lot of branches or Protestantism that think the whole "born again" aspect or the "feeling" of being saved is complete hooey. True Calvinists, for instance, don't claim for sure that they know if they are saved or not. But having made the decision and felt the pull, you are responsible for acting differently or that is a sign that you DEFINITELY aren't. I have a Pentecostal uncle who preaches every funeral with the HOPE we will meet again in heaven, and he's including himself in that, since we don't know who the "elect" of Paul's letters are. Righteous living is helpful, but not definitive.

Evangelicals tend towards the "born again" but plenty of Episcopalians, some branches of Lutherans, many Anabaptists and, of course, some Calvinists, including Charismatic (I'm using that as a technical term, meaning that the congregation follows what is known as the "fruits of the spirit" and often believe you are not truly saved until you begin to "show forth fruit" most usually, but not always, speaking in tongues) don't consider things like "the Jesus prayer" a vital part of their ministry. After all, there is no "Jesus prayer" in the New Testament. It's a later construction that came out of a particular branch of Protestanism and really took hold here in the "New World" where we are culturally very fond of second chances in other ways as well as spiritually.

[Muffyn]

I agree that  not all forms of Protestantism focus on people being born again.  There is the idea of being saved or the elect or one with the spirit, etc.  I have a friend who is an Episcopal Priest as is her father.  When asked if he was born again, he used to tell a story:  "I was sitting under a large tree in a meadow, reflecting on the beauty and wonder of the world.  I thought I felt the hand of god on my shoulder, as a sign to re-accept him into my heart and be born again.  I brushed it off."  He would then laugh.  He was a wonderful, caring, intelligent and sensitive pastor, but he had little patience for people who only focused on being born again and not following it up with care for the individuals.   

[Tahitigirl]

A religion question started swirling around in my brain right before the interview last night.

 

I was raised Catholic. If we sinned, we went to confession, which has already been discussed here recently. Also, the religious training I received from the priest, nuns, and my parents emphasized that if you committed a sin after the priest forgave you in confession, you weren't sincere and that meant you still had work to do on your soul. 

 

So I now read these statements from people in other religious traditions saying that God has forgiven them. And my question is, how do they know? How do we know that God has forgiven Josh, for example? If he feels forgiven, maybe that's him believing what he wants to believe, or believing the part of his brain that he wants to hear. I had a pint of cinnamon ice cream yesterday, for example. Part of my brain told me not to eat it all at once because it's not healthy to do so. Another little internal voice told me that I should because of stress and I've hit my weight loss goal for the year and I deserve a treat. I was in the position of picking which voice to listen to (and the ice cream is gone!).

 

How does someone know that God has forgiven them and that it's not just their brain telling them what they want to hear?

In a nutshell, without getting too theological, the Bible promises that God will forgive us: I John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to purify us from all unrighteousness." That's how we know.

[mynextmistake]

I saw a bumper sticker once that said, "born alright the first time", which gave my Catholic self a well-intentioned chuckle. Catholic or Protestant, good deeds or good thoughts, I think the goal is to be a better person in thoughts AND deeds. That's how I was raised, anyway.My understanding on those topics is the same as yours, Muffyn. Confession has to be made sincerely, including a sincere intention to "sin no more". Most Catholics I know, even practicing ones, don't really do old-fashioned confession anymore, even though the Church would still say it's necessary. I think a lot of people have made the same logic connection I made when I was 10, namely, if God is always present, and knows what's in my heart, can't I confess directly to Him? I believe I can.(An aside, I live in a rural area, and most of our local priests don't even have a designated confessional time anymore, instead doing it by appointment. I always find it hilarious on TV shows that people can walk into a confessional - or even a Catholic church in general - and find a priest 24/7. Like they just sit there all day hoping someone stops by. Heh.)

q

Sadly, none of the Catholic churches in my town have an open-door policy anymore because of concerns about theft or vandalism. They set hours for confession and you go in during those hours, or you can make a special appointment. I remember when I was much younger the churches were always open and they were a nice quiet place to sit and think.

[melanie]

Muffyn, I do not think that the Catholic Church got rid of the idea of purgatory.  

John 6:39 is probably one of the most diversely interpreted scriptures, IMO.  It states:  And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up on the last day.  My Baptist parents use it as a justification for their "One saved, always saved" belief.  

[mbutterfly]

In a nutshell, without getting too theological, the Bible promises that God will forgive us: I John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to purify us from all unrighteousness." That's how we know.

God does forgive when we confess our sins. But there was no confession in either show with Megyn Kelly. If Josh has cloistered himself to spend time with God and confessing, that is truly wonderful. Because his sinning around these sexual assaults didn't stop 12 years ago. Josh has consistently characterized himself as a role model of a man who remained chaste until he was married. In this sense, Josh is once again exploiting the innocence of young men. That is monumental  lying. He still had much to confess. And telling a story on television (and not even Josh doing it) has nothing whatsoever to do with confessing to God or even speaking with God. It's pure show biz. And the Duggars are in show biz so they may choose to do this. But it isn't a come-to-Jesus occasion in any way. 

[GEML]

I do think his portrayal of himself and his marriage "testimony" are out of sync with what this story tells us. Or, for comparison, you have David Waller's which is, subtly, more honest, sometimes we felt, a little TOO honest, with his saying he didn't want to marry and the father asking for his wife to have control over the Internet, etc.

Josh went for the full whitewash, and that is part of the reason people are so angry now. (While I never thought his past was as disturbing as it turned out to be, I did suspect there was a past.)

[NEGirl]

Melanie - Yes, the Catholic Church has gotten rid of  purgatory. I asked a  friend who is a deacon in his church. They no longer preach this.

Edited June 7, 2015 by NEGirl

[melanie]

Upon reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is on the Vatican's own web site -- purgatory is still there as a final purification of the elect.  

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm

 

[KatWay]

it's not being actively taught in most churches though, at least not any of the ones I've been to/heard of.

[Absolom]

It's gone the way of birth control and many other topics at least in our area.  I haven't heard it mentioned in a homily in decades.