Gimme That Old Time Religion

[SadForTheJSlaves]

The thread for discussing JB's father isn't clear, but I recommend Other Duggar Kids and Grandma Duggar, which I can retitle.

 

Also ... and this is important ...

 

We are not allowing speculation on whether people other than Josh molested anyone. We know Josh did. It's not fair to others to guess about whether they were harmed anyone in this way.

 

Thanks in advance for abiding by our guidelines.

 

Duly noted!

[cheatincheetos]

Regarding the "Nike!" practice to warn of 'defrauding' women nearby, do they know that the shoe brand was named for a pagan goddess?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_%28mythology%29

[Vaysh]

Regarding the "Nike!" practice to warn of 'defrauding' women nearby, do they know that the shoe brand was named for a pagan goddess?

 

I sincerely doubt the kids know. Somehow I don't think that mythology or comparative religion is part of the Gothard approved curriculum.

[Micks Picks]

Ive said that I am Catholic with extensive education as a Catholic.  We did not quote chapter and verse at all.  Tip, if they're quoting, they're not Catholic.  In my case we were taught to practice critical thinking and logic.  Rote memory didn't cut it.  We did broad overviews with history (coutd be a snoozeest) and science and human nature and practicality and a God loves you and you should try to be a good person.  Sin, ask forgiveness and do better.   Had I wandered into Gothard land I would have been shocked and insulted.  Another poster mentioned listening to a radio sermon while on a road trip with a reasonable pastor going from purity to screaming about abusing animals sexually.  How can you reasonably go from modest women to jumping a goat?

 

I also came across the Penecostal Manifesto on the net and read some of it and was shocked at the anti-catholic rant among many other things.  My cousin is a penecostal and seems like a nice man.  Does a lot of praise god, god is always good, and similar things.  A little strange.  Then I see this family with the rote praise Jesus, we'll pray about it, God laid it on my heart, and so on.

 

While I previously never thought much about other religions, use my own in fact as a standard to live by and pray quietly, never criticized other religions, but now I must say it is self evident that there is real damage being done in many and particularly in cults like the Duggars and the FLDS.  If you treat women like this, you will not progress.  

 

Why women buy in to making themselves 3rd class citizens is beyond me.  The loving gazes at the husbands is just dippy looking.  They don't have an opinion.  This is a study on group dynamics and Gothard is a master at it.  Michelle I'm sure was a fine kid and teen.  What crap she is buying now is killing her.  It already killed her spirit.  JB I think actually likes his kids.  It hasn't killed his spirit.  This is so wrong, and I'd love to see a gently awakening.  

[Micks Picks]

It doesn't seem to be that you can honestly take a bible verse from 3 or 4 completely different place, written by different people in different places and times, and come to extreme versions of how to live.  THE answer to a question.  I don't think God gives my pentecostal cousin everything, so you don't think you have to thank Him all the time with God is good or always provides or whatever when it seems God did no such thing.  He, the cousin did it or a friend helped him, but God I think is not that interested in every single little thing.  I mean I pray to find my keys and give thanks but come on, you know what I mean, I hope.  God guiding us works a whole lot better when we've bothered to educate ourselves al little bit to enable us to guide ourselves.  I think God likes to see us improve ourselves and find joy in life.  That's what I wish for those I love.

[JenCarroll]

True story: A friend of ours was traveling through rural Texas, and in conversation with a waitress who said something in passing about God. Our friend said, "Actually, I'm an atheist." And the waitress, in all sincerity, replied, "Oh, that's interesting! Are you Jewish or Catholic?"

[Micks Picks]

Jen I have close family who are atheist and they are as big a pill around as the super Christians.  Some are the lord put it on my heart, and praise god while the atheists are arguing that only the doctors are to be praised or the engineers and sneering, really sneering and making funny noises and shaking their heads.  Maybe worse than the believers.  Maybe we should incorporate some Hindu and Buddist elements into our lives.  Sorry, I gotta go and meditate and berate deeply and strike a yoga pose.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Micks Picks

[becca3891]

Jen I have close family who are atheist and they are as big a pill around as the super Christians.  Some are the lord put it on my heart, and praise god while the atheists are arguing that only the doctors are to be praised or the engineers and sneering, really sneering and making funny noises and shaking their heads.  Maybe worse than the believers.  Maybe we should incorporate some Hindu and Buddist elements into our lives.  Sorry, I gotta go and meditate and berate deeply and strike a yoga pose.

I have never encountered an atheist like that but I endure on a daily basis people who must bring god into every possible conversation. Give me an atheist any day. (And actually, I am one, but i felt this way even when I did believe in god.)

[Micks Picks]

Becca the family members who are atheists are close in blood line, the closet I have, and are very uncomfortable to be around.  Not just for their God attitudes but their general "I'm better than you and you have a role to fulfill by doing and staying what I expect you to say at the right time"     They make me uncomfortable, period.  Too bad they are most closely related to me.

[GEML]

Anyone who is a self-righteous know-better than you (and always telling you how wrong you are) is unpleasant to be around. Especially when they also lack a sense of humor. Doesn't particularly matter to me what they do or don't believe.

[mbutterfly]

Ive said that I am Catholic with extensive education as a Catholic.  We did not quote chapter and verse at all.  Tip, if they're quoting, they're not Catholic.  In my case we were taught to practice critical thinking and logic.  Rote memory didn't cut it.  We did broad overviews with history (coutd be a snoozeest) and science and human nature and practicality and a God loves you and you should try to be a good person.  Sin, ask forgiveness and do better.   Had I wandered into Gothard land I would have been shocked and insulted.  Another poster mentioned listening to a radio sermon while on a road trip with a reasonable pastor going from purity to screaming about abusing animals sexually.  How can you reasonably go from modest women to jumping a goat?

 

I also came across the Penecostal Manifesto on the net and read some of it and was shocked at the anti-catholic rant among many other things.  My cousin is a penecostal and seems like a nice man.  Does a lot of praise god, god is always good, and similar things.  A little strange.  Then I see this family with the rote praise Jesus, we'll pray about it, God laid it on my heart, and so on.

 

While I previously never thought much about other religions, use my own in fact as a standard to live by and pray quietly, never criticized other religions, but now I must say it is self evident that there is real damage being done in many and particularly in cults like the Duggars and the FLDS.  If you treat women like this, you will not progress.  

 

Why women buy in to making themselves 3rd class citizens is beyond me.  The loving gazes at the husbands is just dippy looking.  They don't have an opinion.  This is a study on group dynamics and Gothard is a master at it.  Michelle I'm sure was a fine kid and teen.  What crap she is buying now is killing her.  It already killed her spirit.  JB I think actually likes his kids.  It hasn't killed his spirit.  This is so wrong, and I'd love to see a gently awakening.  

I am a main line Protestant and all of this is as foreign to me as it is to you. Therefore, I find it fascinating in a kind of Margaret Mead sort of fascination. 

[JenCarroll]

Jen I have close family who are atheist and they are as big a pill around as the super Christians.  Some are the lord put it on my heart, and praise god while the atheists are arguing that only the doctors are to be praised or the engineers and sneering, really sneering and making funny noises and shaking their heads.  Maybe worse than the believers.  Maybe we should incorporate some Hindu and Buddist elements into our lives.  Sorry, I gotta go and meditate and berate deeply and strike a yoga pose.

I'm not sure what that has to do with what I posted. Our friend wasn't being confrontational and the waitress genuinely thought that what she'd said was accurate -- she wasn't trying to be offensive either. I've certainly met some humorless atheists, and maybe a larger number of humorless Christians (which I've always assumed is because one meets more Christians in general than self-professed atheists.)

For my part, I'm an (agnostic) secular Ashkenazi Jew -- generally not a group lacking in humor. :-)

[Churchhoney]

Regarding the "Nike!" practice to warn of 'defrauding' women nearby, do they know that the shoe brand was named for a pagan goddess?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_%28mythology%29

...and often pictured with a great deal of skin showing --

 

http://www.logoinn.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/nike-the-goddess.jpg

[Zahdii]

I once asked a (fundie) pastor a similar question and got a horrifying response. Basically, he said that women, through Eve, ruined God's plan of a perfect man. So the man is still superior even though he has been made weak in this area because of the sin of Eve who was tempted by the serpent.

 

 

There was a period of time when I was a child that a local Baptist church ran busses around on Sunday morning to pick up children for church.  My parents, not being religious themselves, saw a way to get their kids out of their hair for five hours on Sunday morning, so we were put on the bus and my parents went out for Sunday breakfast and then did whatever they did until we came home.  I resented the heck out of it.

 

BUT, I remember a sermon where this issue was discussed.  Paraphrasing here because this was a looong time ago, but the Pastor said that the first sin was actually Adam's.  Satan wanted to disrupt God's plan, so he wanted to make the humans sin.  So he convinced Eve to eat the forbidden fruit, and then she convinced Adam to eat the fruit.  But because Eve was influenced directly from the Devil, she was considered to be blameless, because who could fight against the Devil when he was right there?  His power was too strong to resist.

 

According to what the Pastor said, while Eve was directly influenced by Satan, Adam was merely influenced by Eve.  So Adam committed the first sin.

 

But if you really think about it, the sermon was actually a warning that women are weak and not to be trusted.  Satan wanted to get someone to eat the fruit, but Adam was wholly made by God, possibly strong enough to resist the Devil. 

 

But Eve was kind of an afterthought.  God couldn't be bothered to make Eve fresh and new and all out of new parts.  He just took one of Adam's ribs and made that into Eve, then gave her to Adam as a gift.  Like when banks used to give toasters to new clients.  Adam was God's perfect creation, and then he used part of Adam to give him a toy.  "Here you go, Adam.  I made you a woman.  Now go forth and multiply.  I'll watch from afar."  Thus making God the first and creepiest stalker ever.

 

As for Adam?  Being a Man, he was much loved by God, but he was susceptible to the blandishments of a woman.  Think about that.  God made Adam, but Adam was easily swayed by a mere woman, because she was easily swayed by the Devil.

 

I should stop now, because I don't really think of God that way.  I don't quite know how I feel about the whole thing, except that it seems to me that too many religions were started by men and the vast majority is slanted to make men better than women.

[Rhetorica]

There was a period of time when I was a child that a local Baptist church ran busses around on Sunday morning to pick up children for church. My parents, not being religious themselves, saw a way to get their kids out of their hair for five hours on Sunday morning, so we were put on the bus and my parents went out for Sunday breakfast and then did whatever they did until we came home. I resented the heck out of it.

BUT, I remember a sermon where this issue was discussed. Paraphrasing here because this was a looong time ago, but the Pastor said that the first sin was actually Adam's. Satan wanted to disrupt God's plan, so he wanted to make the humans sin. So he convinced Eve to eat the forbidden fruit, and then she convinced Adam to eat the fruit. But because Eve was influenced directly from the Devil, she was considered to be blameless, because who could fight against the Devil when he was right there? His power was too strong to resist.

According to what the Pastor said, while Eve was directly influenced by Satan, Adam was merely influenced by Eve. So Adam committed the first sin.

But if you really think about it, the sermon was actually a warning that women are weak and not to be trusted. Satan wanted to get someone to eat the fruit, but Adam was wholly made by God, possibly strong enough to resist the Devil.

But Eve was kind of an afterthought. God couldn't be bothered to make Eve fresh and new and all out of new parts. He just took one of Adam's ribs and made that into Eve, then gave her to Adam as a gift. Like when banks used to give toasters to new clients. Adam was God's perfect creation, and then he used part of Adam to give him a toy. "Here you go, Adam. I made you a woman. Now go forth and multiply. I'll watch from afar." Thus making God the first and creepiest stalker ever.

As for Adam? Being a Man, he was much loved by God, but he was susceptible to the blandishments of a woman. Think about that. God made Adam, but Adam was easily swayed by a mere woman, because she was easily swayed by the Devil.

I should stop now, because I don't really think of God that way. I don't quite know how I feel about the whole thing, except that it seems to me that too many religions were started by men and the vast majority is slanted to make men better than women.

But there are two different creation stories in Genesis. The one you described and the one I choose to believe. Where "God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." At the same time! I think the reason the second story is more mainstream is because men have been in charge of religion since it was formally organized.

[AnJen]

It's always interesting to see how different sects of Christianity can interpret the same Biblical passages so differently (or I guess different religions entirely, since I believe Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all include Adam and Eve?); I've never understood the "Eve is an evil sinner so all women are going to be punished" line of thought, but my religion views the creation story quite a bit differently.

 

It seems like a shameful thing to teach women; that they're inherently less because of something that happened eons before they were born.

[Rhetorica]

It's always interesting to see how different sects of Christianity can interpret the same Biblical passages so differently (or I guess different religions entirely, since I believe Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all include Adam and Eve?); I've never understood the "Eve is an evil sinner so all women are going to be punished" line of thought, but my religion views the creation story quite a bit differently.

It seems like a shameful thing to teach women; that they're inherently less because of something that happened eons before they were born.

A better way to control them. Guilt and fear are powerful motivators.

[Sew Sumi]

Fun with STDs, according to Gothard's "Wisdom" booklets. Don't let the link fool you; they took screenshots of actual widsom booklets. For those of you who are new to Gothardism, may as well start with this stuff. It's unbelievable! 

 

http://gawker.com/semen-causes-cancer-bad-science-from-the-duggars-homes-1707107182?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_facebook&utm_source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

[NextIteration]

Someone found their binders and is happily feeding Gawker, lol.

[Sew Sumi]

LMAO! So true, but I'm glad it's getting out beyond Recovering Grace, Free Jinger, and some Facebook groups who are dedicated to Fundie Watching. 

[dillpickles]

Fun with STDs, according to Gothard's "Wisdom" booklets. Don't let the link fool you; they took screenshots of actual widsom booklets. For those of you who are new to Gothardism, may as well start with this stuff. It's unbelievable!

http://gawker.com/semen-causes-cancer-bad-science-from-the-duggars-homes-1707107182?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_facebook&utm_source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

The quater pea though. THE QUATER PEA. Was gothy boy high when he came up with this stuff? He's senile. It is amazing how he managed to convince people with jobs, families, and working brains that these things where true.

[Fuzzysox]

The quater pea though. THE QUATER PEA. Was gothy boy high when he came up with this stuff? He's senile. It is amazing how he managed to convince people with jobs, families, and working brains that these things where true.

^^THIS!! It boggles mymind that people believe what he is selling.

[kathe5133]

Holy Mary Mother of God! And I it is time to break out my father's favorite curse: JESUS CHRIST ALL SHIT! (if any one knows what that means.."). These people are just bat shit crazy. There are no words. Well, no words other than the four letter kind.

[HeyNow]

Holy Mary Mother of God! And I it is time to break out my father's favorite curse: JESUS CHRIST ALL SHIT! (if any one knows what that means.."). These people are just bat shit crazy. There are no words. Well, no words other than the four letter kind.

I KNOW, right?!!  I was damnitalltohelling about the cervical cancer!!!

[JenCarroll]

wtf There are no other words.

[Rhetorica]

Wait a minute... Are these "Wisdom" booklets real or is this Gawker satire?

[Sew Sumi]

100% real. I've seen this stuff in the past, probably at FJ when it used to be a better place. Recovering Grace may have posted this as well at some point. But, yeah. *smh*

[allonsyalice]

Under the 'miscarriage' section of those scans, it says

 

The miscarriage or premature birth of a child conceived in unfaithfulness can also be attributed to the stress of the cup of bitter water.

 

what do they mean by "bitter water" coffee???

[Sew Sumi]

It's not for mere mortals to know. You need the Super Gothard Decoder Ring. Or the divining powers of TFDW. :D

[Chalby]

Ben Seewald's Father Defends Josh Duggar: 'I'm Rooting For You'

http://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/celebrity/ben-seewalds-father-defends-josh-duggar-im-rooting-for-you/ar-BBkeumt

I read Dad Seewald's article and i have noticed a common theme with most fundie's  posts. They mentioned that we all are sinners. I apologize for seeming ignorant, but why am I a sinner? I have gone over the past 40+ years of my life, and I seriously need an answer for this. What do they assume is a general sin that one commits? It really gets me down when they make a generalized statement that we are sinners. Why? Thanks in advance to anyone answering this

Edited May 28, 2015 by Chalby

[cmr2014]

 

I read Dad Seewald's article and i have noticed a common theme with most fundie's  posts. They mentioned that we all are sinners. I apologize for seeming ignorant, but why am I a sinner? I have gone over the past 40+ years of my life, and I seriously need an answer for this. What do they assume is a general sin that one commits? It really gets me down when they make a generalized statement that we are sinners. Why? Thanks in advance to anyone answering this

 

We are all sinners because we all make mistakes -- we are not perfect. The problem here is equating all mistakes. I am sometimes not as patient as I would like to be, it's just not the same as molestation, and I can't make that leap.

 

An enormous amount of the work that a human brain does every day is to put the brakes on the ideas that flit through our heads. We usually don't think about it, but our brain is always stopping us from quitting our jobs, leaving our spouses, etc. I think that one of the things that goes on in fundamentalist churches is an obsession with the "dark" side of human nature and a constant hum of talk about  dark things that people do (you may have read the off-the-wall screed of Phil Robertson, that Duck Dynasty guy, who seems to think that Jesus is the only reason people don't race around raping and murdering each other 24/7).

 

If you take these dark thoughts that simply flit through a normal person's conscience during the day and insist that these make up the entirety of who that person really is, and how that person really thinks, you create the shame necessary to convince people that they are hopeless, desperate sinners who are only barely hanging on the decency by the grace of God. 

 

And, In my opinion, if you believe that you are a hopelessly depraved person, it's just not that big a leap to have a lapse and behave in a depraved manner.

[Sew Sumi]

Don't fundies believe that you are BORN with sin? I'm pretty sure that Pa Seewald has alluded to that in the past, as has Ben. What a burden for a poor baby/child, who is not able to fully come to Jesus until they are a little older and are then baptized into the faith. It really irks me that they look at Baby Iz and think, "Sinner!" :/

[NextIteration]

Yes, much like Catholics, but born again folks believe that you cannot be forgiven unless and until you invite Jesus into your heart.  Catholics take care of the original sin right quick with a baptism.

 

Funny story, one day a school friend asked me if I wanted to go to Pioneer Girls with her, as far as I could comprehend in 3rd grade I figured it was the same thing as my Brownie meetings or a Camp Fire girls meeting.  Well no, it's a children's ministry thing and one of the leaders sat me down and took me through the paces of asking Jesus into my heart.  Oh.my.gawd.  When I got home and told my mom about my day - she positively FLIPPED out.  Hastily made some nasty phone calls, one of course to my school friends mother - I was mortified.  Heh, now that's a sin in the Catholic world. lmao.

 

Move forward about 30 years, a very valuable person in my career network was an evangelical of some sort.  I'm a recovered Catholic agnostic as an adult - and every single time we got together for work related stuff she would proselytize at me - talk about sins of the father the whole nine yards.  I'd just try to chuckle and explain that there was no changing my mind, I had spent years thinking about this and for me religion is merely a function of culture and a way for people that don't understand things to have answers.  We managed to stay friends just enough to work together to be on the same board, but boy I had to stop her for years from trying to go there with me.  They sure don't like taking a polite no thank you for an answer.

[GEML]

This is what I was pointing out earlier. No one is sitting there shaming the women and praising Josh. They will all be shamed for different things. (That the girls are innocent is a different issue, of course.). But men are treated very harshly in Fundamentalism. Everyone is.

[Cherrio]

It's not for mere mortals to know. You need the Super Gothard Decoder Ring. Or the divining powers of TFDW. :D

LOL      great way to start the day with a laughing fit.  Thanks !     

[Boton]

I read Dad Seewald's article and i have noticed a common theme with most fundie's  posts. They mentioned that we all are sinners. I apologize for seeming ignorant, but why am I a sinner? I have gone over the past 40+ years of my life, and I seriously need an answer for this. What do they assume is a general sin that one commits? It really gets me down when they make a generalized statement that we are sinners. Why? Thanks in advance to anyone answering this

 

Good answers in here.  I think I can add a bit as well.  The idea that we are all born sinners goes back to the idea that everyone is descended from Adam and Eve and has "inherited" the burden of their initial sins.  So, even when you are newborn and as blameless as you're ever going to be, you are still carrying enough inherited sin on your soul to send you directly to hell.

 

This is a big thing when religions were developing their stances on infant baptism vs. adult baptism.  For those who practice adult baptism, they can argue that a person needs to have enough adult free will to accept the tenants of their faith before the baptism will really "take" and wash away the accumulated sin.  Of course, this was tremendously stressful in the days when infant and childhood mortality rates were so high.

 

Those who believed in infant baptism developed the idea that a godparent could make the promise on the child's behalf, and the child could be washed free from this initial sin as soon as possible after birth, which was a boon for those who unfortunately would be losing children young.

 

For some segments of Christianity, there is a belief that Jesus was born without original sin, or without the sin that is inherited from Adam and Eve.  There is then possibly the companion belief that Mary herself would have had to be sinless at the time of conception in order to produce a being that was sinless.  

 

This all devolves onto fundamentalist Christianity and, specifically for our conversation, onto the Duggars because of the belief that, once you are washed clean of sin (either through baptism or through a later process of being "born again"), you are in a continual state of being exposed to potential sin and have no real hope of ever re-attaining a state of being sinless enough to go to heaven.  Only through a belief in Jesus as the Christ (with very specific requirements about your concept of him and your "personal relationship") can you go to heaven.  The idea is, Jesus died on the cross more or less voluntarily as a sacrifice to God in exchange for God forgiving believers of their sins enough to let them into heaven.  In this idea, Jesus becomes the literal (no snark intended) "scapegoat" for others.  

[Fuzzysox]

Fun with STDs, according to Gothard's "Wisdom" booklets. Don't let the link fool you; they took screenshots of actual widsom booklets. For those of you who are new to Gothardism, may as well start with this stuff. It's unbelievable! 

 

http://gawker.com/semen-causes-cancer-bad-science-from-the-duggars-homes-1707107182?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_facebook&utm_source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

After reading this last night I went to bed really bothered by the fact that Chad Paine's father is a medical doctor. How the hell can he have his children believing in this non-scientific bullshit????? UGH I couldn't sleep because of it.

 

Creating some bullshit out of your warped head is not science Mr. Gothard. What a complete dis-service he has done to legions of children with his "wisdom books." IDK I'm just dumbfounded by the whole concept of cults and their followers. 

[GEML]

There is this totally misinformed idea that cults only or mostly attract uneducated or people who aren't smart or talented. When most studies show that almost anyone can be taken in by a belief system (not all cults are religious) if the timing is right. Most cults actually are far more attractive because they emphasize a sense of community and superiority over the rest of humanity - we have something special that other people don't have. Sometimes that's expressed in religious language, but not always.

Indeed, most cult followers are college educated and longing to belong to something greater than themselves that also gives them a sense of purpose and control. It's not that a doctor joins and becomes anti-science. It's that he would just be another doctor among thousands in the rest of the world. In Gothard-Dom, he's one of the most revered people, his children prominent and important, his grandchildren making status marriages. Outside world? He's a doctor fighting with insurance companies.

[Skittl1321]

 There is then possibly the companion belief that Mary herself would have had to be sinless at the time of conception in order to produce a being that was sinless.  

 

And THIS is what the Catholic belief of Immaculate Conception is- that Mary was conceived and born without sin.

 

I hate when people use Immaculate Conception to mean "conceived without a father" (i.e., Jesus).  That is "Virgin Birth".  Different thing!

 

(This is the religion thread, so this isn't a totally off topic rant, right?)

[Fuzzysox]

There is this totally misinformed idea that cults only or mostly attract uneducated or people who aren't smart or talented. When most studies show that almost anyone can be taken in by a belief system (not all cults are religious) if the timing is right. Most cults actually are far more attractive because they emphasize a sense of community and superiority over the rest of humanity - we have something special that other people don't have. Sometimes that's expressed in religious language, but not always.

Indeed, most cult followers are college educated and longing to belong to something greater than themselves that also gives them a sense of purpose and control. It's not that a doctor joins and becomes anti-science. It's that he would just be another doctor among thousands in the rest of the world. In Gothard-Dom, he's one of the most revered people, his children prominent and important, his grandchildren making status marriages. Outside world? He's a doctor fighting with insurance companies.

I get that well educated people can fall into the trappings of cults because it's alluring to belong to a group. What I don't understand is how people give up free thinking in order to be part of said cult.

 

I couldn't do it because I'm too logical and think about way too much and would question everything. I'm the girl that dared to ask questions in Catholic school and was sent to see the principal because I expected the teacher to answer my question. I didn't last long only a year in a Catholic HS. Thank goodness we moved so I could go to a free thinking HS were I was free to ask as many questions about life. You can't learn if you can't question.

[GEML]

There is a personality type that doesn't do well. But I'd caution that any of us are truly too rational to never be taken in. After all, it's not really about God/religion, it's usually about a charismatic narcissistic personality who is very human, very charming, and actually doesn't mind those questions.

If that person comes along at a particular moment in your life when you are vulnerable, that's how people get caught up in cults. Not because they are stupid or irrational or easily lead or refuse to think for themselves.

And once you're in, you may be isolated, or you may have far too much to lose, or you may be a true believer, etc. So you stay.

[NextIteration]

There is a personality type that doesn't do well. But I'd caution that any of us are truly too rational to never be taken in. After all, it's not really about God/religion, it's usually about a charismatic narcissistic personality who is very human, very charming, and actually doesn't mind those questions.

If that person comes along at a particular moment in your life when you are vulnerable, that's how people get caught up in cults. Not because they are stupid or irrational or easily lead or refuse to think for themselves.

And once you're in, you may be isolated, or you may have far too much to lose, or you may be a true believer, etc. So you stay.

 

Not just cults, abusive relationships, wait, that is redundant.  What I mean is that it doesn't have to be a cult, it can be a relationship of any sort.

Edited May 28, 2015 by NextIteration

[Churchhoney]

I get that well educated people can fall into the trappings of cults because it's alluring to belong to a group. What I don't understand is how people give up free thinking in order to be part of said cult.

 

I couldn't do it because I'm too logical and think about way too much and would question everything. I'm the girl that dared to ask questions in Catholic school and was sent to see the principal because I expected the teacher to answer my question. I didn't last long only a year in a Catholic HS. Thank goodness we moved so I could go to a free thinking HS were I was free to ask as many questions about life. You can't learn if you can't question.

 

I think it's especially alluring to belong to a group, and to be told by somebody who's cool and charismatic in some way that the group -- and you along with it -- are part of some greater purpose, vision, whatever. The charm of a leader and then the instincts of that leader to make people feel they're part of something bigger and highly meaningful by following him/her are really important draws, I think. Unfortunately, we're all capable of falling for charm and charisma, and sometimes we rational-thinker types are more easily misled by the "big vision" part than others are. .....

 

I do think that some people are less likely to go in than others and that skeptics are often more immune. But it looks like the cults that have been most successful have had something to tempt some people of every sort, including the cranky questioners.

 

Just finished reading the Jenna Miscavige book about her life in Scientology. And while she was born into it and the lifelong exposure helped to keep her and her family trapped, it was clear that the idea of being part of an important mission to save the world was a big part of what bound them. Scary. 

 

One thing that made me laugh, though (even though it's also kind of horrible), was the similarity between L. Ron Hubbard's obsession with redefining words and making sure everybody knew how wrong their typical definitions of words were and Gothard's/ATI's very similar approach. The Scientology courses that Jenna M described, and her confusion about words that did not mean what you think they mean, and so on, seemed as if they wouldn't change very much at all if somebody simply swapped out Hubbard's material for a few Wisdom Booklets and instruction in "defrauding."

 

All these "theories" that some of the most successful cult leaders use to sell people on membership remind me of the kind of thinking and theorizing I remember doing when I was a pre-teen and young teenager, just starting to appreciate an intellectual approach to the worlld. Total sophistry and craziness, those theories and "analyses," but it all felt very meaningful at the time. Their theologies and philosophies are both nutso and adolescent when  you really look at them. But when they develop these things into seemingly all-encompassing systems, it really draws people in, apparently.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Churchhoney

[GEML]

If you believe in almost anything, and that included politics, scientific theories that are more complicated than Newtonian physics, where your spouse was last night, etc. to some extent you make up your own language to justify your own needs and you accept things other people say that agree with your perceptions over what doesn't already fit your own ideas. It's just how human brains work. Cult leads just turn the dial to 11.

And the comparison to an abusive relationship is a good one.

[dillpickles]

Under the 'miscarriage' section of those scans, it says

what do they mean by "bitter water" coffee???

I'm thinking Vodka or some other alcoholic beverage. Because we all know starbucks is MEchelles only love.

[GEML]

Bitter water is a Bible reference. It is basically undrinkable water that can sometimes, in a miracle, be made sweet. But the Gothard passage most likely applies to this verse from Numbers (King James Version, as that's the one they would use) "And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter."

It refers to a woman being tested for having betrayed her husband, usually for adultery. She was to drink this bitter drink and if she had "sinned" she would abort and prove the man right. Miscarriages, thus, could mean you are sinning against your husband and thus "drinking of the bitter waters" and not worthy of carrying a child.

Really, this is not a place most people want to know about.

[Skittl1321]

It refers to a woman being tested for having betrayed her husband, usually for adultery. She was to drink this bitter drink and if she had "sinned" she would abort and prove the man right. Miscarriages, thus, could mean you are sinning against your husband and thus "drinking of the bitter waters" and not worthy of carrying a child.

 

So there is biblical support for abortion of a child who is the product of adultery?

Edited May 28, 2015 by Skittl1321

[Rhetorica]

Bitter water is a Bible reference. It is basically undrinkable water that can sometimes, in a miracle, be made sweet. But the Gothard passage most likely applies to this verse from Numbers (King James Version, as that's the one they would use) "And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter."

It refers to a woman being tested for having betrayed her husband, usually for adultery. She was to drink this bitter drink and if she had "sinned" she would abort and prove the man right. Miscarriages, thus, could mean you are sinning against your husband and thus "drinking of the bitter waters" and not worthy of carrying a child.

Really, this is not a place most people want to know about.

The Book of Numbers also states that the man shall be free from blame if the woman was incorrectly accused.(5:26).

Another win for men!

[Absolom]

Just a historical/theological note on original sin is that not all of Christendom believes in that theory.  Orthodox (capital O) do not.  It originated with St. Augustine.  

[Rhondinella]

Bitter water is a Bible reference. It is basically undrinkable water that can sometimes, in a miracle, be made sweet. But the Gothard passage most likely applies to this verse from Numbers (King James Version, as that's the one they would use) "And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter."

It refers to a woman being tested for having betrayed her husband, usually for adultery. She was to drink this bitter drink and if she had "sinned" she would abort and prove the man right. Miscarriages, thus, could mean you are sinning against your husband and thus "drinking of the bitter waters" and not worthy of carrying a child.

Really, this is not a place most people want to know about.

 

Thank you, GEML.  I was coming here to post the same thing.  I assumed that was what was being referred to as well.  The verses, by the way, are from Numbers 5.  Starting in v 17 I've excerpted the relevant portions, because I find it a fascinating ritual from an anthropological standpoint (I wrote a little about this passage in my dissertation):

 

The priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. 18 The priest shall set the woman before the Lord, dishevel the woman’s hair, and place in her hands the grain offering of remembrance, which is the grain offering of jealousy. In his own hand the priest shall have the water of bitterness that brings the curse. 19 Then the priest shall make her take an oath, saying, “If no man has lain with you, if you have not turned aside to uncleanness while under your husband’s authority, be immune to this water of bitterness that brings the curse. 20 But if you have gone astray while under your husband’s authority, if you have defiled yourself and some man other than your husband has had intercourse with you,” 21 —let the priest make the woman take the oath of the curse and say to the woman—“the Lord make you an execration and an oath among your people, when the Lord makes your uterus drop, your womb discharge; 22 now may this water that brings the curse enter your bowels and make your womb discharge, your uterus drop!” And the woman shall say, “Amen. Amen.”

23 Then the priest shall put these curses in writing, and wash them off into the water of bitterness. 24 He shall make the woman drink the water of bitterness that brings the curse, and the water that brings the curse shall enter her and cause bitter pain. . . . . . 27 When he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain, and her womb shall discharge, her uterus drop, and the woman shall become an execration among her people. 28 But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, then she shall be immune and be able to conceive children.

 

This is a "test" that was (apparently) used (or supposed to be used) by the ancient Israelites in cases when a man suspected his wife of infidelity, even if he had no solid proof.  If he was just jealous he could haul her before the priest and demand this ritual, it appears.  I've always found it fascinating for a lot of reasons that I won't go into here (including the writing of the curse and putting it literally into the water to be drunk).  But using that to then say, "See!  A miscarriage means you've obviously been unfaithful or sinful in some way" is beyond nonsense.  (Plus, are we to believe that in 20 pregnancies over 27 years or whatever that Michelle didn't have ONE SINGLE miscarriage?  I find that hard to believe.)

 

So there is biblical support for abortion of a child who is the product of adultery?

 

 

 

I suppose you could read it that way depending on how you define "biblical support."

 

Just a historical/theological note on original sin is that not all of Christendom believes in that theory.  Orthodox (capital O) do not.  It originated with St. Augustine.

 

 

 

I was just coming here to say the same thing.  My husband, a professor of Christian theology and history, is a Protestant but has widely studied the other streams of Christianity, especially the Catholics (he did his doctorate at a Catholic school).  And he just told me that while all orthodox Western (Augustinian) church tradition (including all Protestants and Catholics) DOES preach some form of "original sin", the Eastern Orthodox tradition rejected that idea, or at least modified it early on.  He admits he is not an expert in this area, but he's pretty sure that their belief on the topic is more along the lines of "people are predisposed toward sin, or more likely to sin than not, but it's not a definite inherited thing."  I'm sure someone else with better knowledge of these traditions could help out here.

 

And, yes, to whoever above said that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception has NOTHING to do with Jesus' birth, but with MARY's birth--specifically the fact that if Jesus was born without sin, Mary must also have been born without sin.  Although, as a Protestant I admit that theory has never made much sense to me since logically it would require all of Mary's line before her to have been sinless as well, and I don't think the Catholic church goes that far.