Gimme That Old Time Religion

[GEML]

Again, I think it's so easy to criticize how people spend money for charity. For instance, if we knew that the Duggars wrote a check for $50,000 every year but also spent $20,000 to visit, would that change our minds?

Foreign missions of any kind are complex situations. So are most charities when you break down what is spent on fundraising, or who the money goes to, or if the money has strings attached. I just don't know what the whole picture is here, and it's pretty clear that TLC is never going to show a full religious picture of their lives, and the Duggars themselves are never going to reveal it, so we really won't ever know what (if anything) they really are doing there.

[WTFFF]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I honestly find the kind of "missionary" work the Duggars do disgusting, and it's not because of the anti-Catholic bias, the money wasted or even how useless they are.  (Though all of that turns my stomach as well.) 

 

It pisses me off that they treat these people like they exist solely to give the Duggars the opportunity to "serve others" and win points with God.  They condescend to them, say gross, inappropriate things, and grope at their children like animals in a petting zoo with a horrific sense of entitlement. 

 

They're people, with actual lives, hopes, dreams and an existence outside of being props to elevate the Duggars' self-esteem, and the amount of disrespect they're treated with by the Duggars (and Ben, etc) disgusts me.  (I know the Duggars aren't the only "missionaries" who are like this, and I find them equally gross.)

[cereality]

What's with the "Duggar Studios" videos that they've been posting on Youtube? Is TLC asking them to do those in the offseason, or is it just a way for them to keep their fans interested in the offseason or maybe touch issues that TLC doesn't like to get into like religion? I just watched the one narrated by Josh re the Duggars' Christmas.

 

Anyone else think it's odd that they have "Happy birthday Jesus" banners and sing happy birthday? Is that something that's done in Christianity bc it is in fact Jesus's birthday, or is this the Duggars' own way of celebrating? Also anyone understand why they don't have a tree? When Josh asked, Mama made it sound like it wasn't "important," Jesus's birthday was important - thus the happy birthday. But then Josh says -- we had some when I was a kid, and I remember them getting knocked over. So is there a religious reason to not have a tree or is it just Duggar convenience? I've never heard of not having a tree due to fear of it being knocked over -- all my friends with toddlers have them and have never mentioned that issue, though I know sometimes they won't put expensive or meaningful ornaments in places where they can be grabbed by a 2 yr old and broken. So is there a religious reason to forego a tree? Because I noticed in Jill's IG pic tonight from the Duggar's celebration, they are standing directly in front of the tree.

 

Also thought it was interesting when Josh walked in through one of the side doors of the house and walked into a "cubicle" looking area -- where Jana was sitting sending out "tons" of Christmas cards. I wonder if that job falls on Jana too -- replying to fan mail/cards.

[Rhondinella]

As a wine-swiling Christian I have asked some of these self-righteous Christians about this very thing. Haven't heard a good response yet. There is a difference between drinking and getting drunk. The differentiation is made in the Bible.

 

 

Bringing over from the media thread the beginnings of a discussion about why the Duggars and other evangelical-type Christians do not condone drinking alcohol in any amount.

 

I'm certainly not an expert on Church History (though I'm married to someone who is), but my understanding is that the "don't drink alcohol" thing, which is clearly not directly from the Bible, came about largely as a product of the American Holiness Movement in the late 19th and early 20th century in North America. This strict focus on holy conduct as well as right belief flourished around the same time as prohibition in the US (and members of this movement were essential in getting prohibition passed). They saw alcohol as a social evil that created addicts and robbed families of fathers and providers because they were too often drunk.  So for them, avoiding alcohol was a social issue first and foremost.  

 

The secondary issue, though, was the idea of "separation," which is what "holy" really means (something that is set apart for a special religious purpose).  Some of the Christians in this movement took vows to avoid particular activities (dancing, smoking, movies, theater, etc.) as well as alcohol not because those things were necessarily evil in themselves (although some may have thought of them as so) but as a way to distinguish them--to set them apart--from the rest of the world as someone who was reserving him/herself for God's purpose.  When you think of it this way, it's really not much different from nuns and priests who take vows of chastity, or the dietary laws in Judaism.  People don't seem to find those weird, yet they don't get the "no alcohol" thing.

 

And honestly that's because the conservative Christian movements who abstain from alcohol have never done a great job of explaining this prohibition either to themselves or to the outside world.  I know, because I grew up in a tradition where dancing, movies, smoking and alcohol were all verboten, for the reasons I listed above.  But kids who asked why they couldn't go to movies were often just told, "because they're bad" instead of the more nuanced devotional reason.  (In defense of my tradition, which I am still active in, they have loosened the restrictions on dancing and movies considerably in recent decades, although smoking and alcohol are still strongly frowned upon).

 

Now, what the Duggar's rationale is for not drinking I couldn't tell you because it almost certainly makes no logical sense.

[Rhondinella]

Well, I've had many a Xmas tree knocked over by a toddler, especially the flimsy plastic ones.  For a few years I actually took to tying the tree to something stable to avoid that situation!  So . . . MAYBE with the constant flow of toddlers through the house I could see that being a reason.  But still, you'd think they could find someplace in that big house to put one where the little ones can't get to it.

 

As for the Happy Birthday Jesus! thing, it's not unique to the Duggars.  Although not mainstream perhaps it's not uncommon among evangelicals and even some more moderate Christians, at least when they have young kids.  It's usually done with the kids in mind.  I don't know any grown adults who do birthday parties for Jesus just by themselves.  I personally think it's really twee, and have always avoided it like the plague, although there isn't anything technically wrong with it, I suppose.

[Micks Picks]

Somebody mentioned a Marci  who posted all kinds of pix of the mission trip on FB so I boogied over there to take a look.  How really dreadful this whole mission thing is.  They took a few pix of a house where a family lived pointing out all the bad things but doing nada to fix it.  They went to a market where they strolled from stall to stall asking those people if they wanted good news, and if they didn't, they were quite negative about it and the poor recipient of unwanted blather (like I am with the groups wanting to come to my door).  When they found someone willing to hear good news, they gave it to her and "saved" her.  They gave everyone tracts.  Oh goodie.  Just what I don't want.  Waste of paper, imo.  And it's frankly insulting.  I worked at the capitol and they had gatherings of street preachers once a year.  I saw 2 of them get into a "theological" disagreement on the street one day, and they came to blows.  Made my day.

[Darknight]

I hope the Duggars know Christmas is a pagen holiday

[Sew Sumi]

I was the one who mentioned Marci Dauer. She does love to get her brag on. Not a lot of humility in that one, but she does give us a window into the Duggar religion that we otherwise wouldn't have. 

[Micks Picks]

Thanks Sew Sumi, it was really interesting although horrifying at the same time.  I don't know how you could walk around feeling that good and holy about yourself.  Humility is of the Lord.  Marci needs some.

[mbutterfly]

They saw alcohol as a social evil that created addicts and robbed families of fathers and providers because they were too often drunk.  So for them, avoiding alcohol was a social issue first and foremost.  

 

My apologies for clipping from your excellent post, but I wanted to focus upon this one piece. My grandmother, probably my most significant role model from very early days, was active in this movement as a young woman. In that time, of course, the father of the family was the source and manager of income. Even when a woman might have inherited wealth, typically her husband controlled it. If that husband and father drank heavily, odds were great the family would suffer enormously. Grandma's Methodist teachings took her there, but she embraced it along with women's suffrage -- and did so with great passion. Politically, I would describe her as a progressive, and her views on abstaining from alcohol were a part of that. That, and a concern for those less fortunate. It was a true social justice issue in its day. And, in many ways, I believe the Holiness Movement was about social justice as much as separation from worldly ways. That it, it wasn't just to be set apart, it was to be set apart for a faith-based reason.

Anyway, I loved your post, but it reminded me of passionate teachings at Grandma's knee. 

[Betweenyouandme]

There's a verse in the Bible that does say something like, "he shouldn't go with an ax to cut down a tree and adorn it with gold and silver." However, pretty much most of the experts agree that it's a statement against idols, ie if you're worshopping the tree, it's wrong, like the golden calf.

[floridamom]

I, too,believed that Michelle dodged the Christmas tree question. She doesn't have any toddlers anymore and the grandkids CAN be taught not to knock things down in the first place. Her kids are wild and razor scooters are NOT an indoor activity.

I myself had a beautiful "angel tree" decorated with glass-like angel ornaments and religious ornaments of the nativity, etc, when I had a larger home and another tree with personal family ornaments, etc...soooo, a Christmas tree CAN have a religious theme to it. Michelle is just lazy IMO.

It is my opinion also, that Jana does all of the "mother-of-the-house" important tasks, like addressing the family's Christmas cards, going through the mail, etc, while Michele plays with craft paint making cheap signs from her "butcher paper" reem, like one of the little kids would enjoy doing.

I wonder if derickdillard's household has a Christmas tree? Obviously his mother's household has one...wonder what Jill thought of that?

Another thing, about cutting down a tree and worshipping it like an idol, I noticed that this family has a LARGE statue nativity scene on their kitchen counter! Isn't that akin to cathoics' "worshipping statue images"? Why do they have status in their home at Christmastime? Such hypocrites..but no tree.

[GEML]

I honestly think Michelle was overwhelmed when she had about five children and used a religious reason to justify not having a tree. They did the "Happy birthday Jesus" to substitute, but it's been clear for years that Christmas is not a terribly important holiday in their home. Which does have the advantage for married children that they can likely spend other holidays with the Duggars and Christmas with their in-laws.

[GEML]

The holiness movement also allowed women ministers, for instance - when most mainstream Christian churches didn't. And it focused on alleviating poverty in greater ways than most mainstream churches as well. It was very progressive in many ways. Quite a few holiness ministers worked closely with FDR during the creation of several of his New Deal programs because they were on the ground and knew what people needed. It started out as a publicity stunt - FDR writing to pastors across the country - but many holiness ministers took him seriously and many corresponded with him and Eleanor regularly for the rest of their collective lives.

And while prohibition was a failure in it's overall goal (for the record, one great grandmother was president of the WCTU another great uncle was one of the largest moonshiners in WV....) alcohol consumption following it's repeal has never come near the levels people drank before the movement.

Edited December 25, 2014 by GEML

[Ilovemylabs]

There's a picture posted from the trip by that woman of a statue of Mary with some comment about how she told the people they shouldn't be worshipping Mary. I'm not Catholic or religious in any way, but how f*cking rude is it to mock someone's religion to their face when you are there to help them? Then there was some comment about how she told a woman her son needs to go specifically to an Evangelical church (I believe he said he was already Christian?)

This shows the Duggar's ignorance.  Catholics honor Mary as Jesus' mother but they do not worship her.  They ask her to be an intercessor for their prayers to Jesus.  It's like asking a friend to pray for you, which the Duggars do often!

[Ljohnson1987]

It bugs me when people say that Josh and Anna are pregnant.  Is  Smuggar gonna push a baby out of his ass? Anna is pregnant. 

[Barb23]

I'm Methodist & used to help teach the 4-5 yr old Sunday School class. We had a Happy Birthday Jesus cake & sang Happy Birthday to him. The kids loved it.

Florida mom- I thought the same things as you. They could decorate a tree with religious items (your Angel treated sounded very nice). Or a nature theme - birds, nests, pinecones, popcorn garland, etc. I'm sure MEchelle just used the little ones getting into it as an excuse. I would have replied right back to her- How does every family that has children, be it 1 or 19, manage to have a decorated tree with barely any trouble? Good grief, there would be no Christmas trees if we all thought like her. Like you also said, if her children would have been taught that they don't ride scooters & bikes inside, there would be no problem.

I'll have to watch video again. Did Josh say if him & Anna have a tree?

[Rhondinella]

A nativity scene isn't a problem for most evangelicals, that I know of.  I don't think they see it as an idol.  In fact, most evangelical homes I know of (where I live anyway) have them, often several.

[Rhondinella]

mbutterfly and GEML!!!  I appreciated your EXCELLENT posts and I'm a teeny bit jealous of your awesome family history of brave and strong women!  I completely agree with everything you've said about how the holiness movement was first and foremost about social justice and the prohibition of alcohol was seen as part of that larger program.

[Skittl1321]

My Catholic Church usually had a birthday cake after kids Christmas Eve mass and we sang happy birthday to Jesus. That's not a Duggar only thing, it's a way to help kids understand the meaning of the holiday.

[floridamom]

Ilovemylabs: You hit it right on the head. As a catholic myself, I can't see why it's such a difficult understanding that we HONOR the Blessed Mother, Mary, as the special vehicle chosen by God, the Father to be the earthly, biological mother of His son, Jesus. Isn't there a commandment that says: Honor thy father and mother? Well, why not honor the mother of Jesus, He did after all honor her as a son would on earth...also, YES, exactly, asking the "saints" to pray for you and with you is exactly like earthly prayer partners. That's what they are. Didn't derickdillard ask Jim Bob to be HIS prayer partner? Why can't that be understood?

 

If a nativity scene is ok and they are statues, why not statues of saints? It's for visual concentration during prayer. The statues are NOT godly, adored, worshipped, nor do they have any "special powers".

 

And Barb23, thank you very much for the angel tree compliment. It was a beautiful one with clear cut glass angels of different colors. The tree really was beautiful, it was a small one I put on my coffee table with battery operated small Christmas lights. It really brought Christmas to my parlor. It was religious is nature. Can't understand why the Duggars and the like don't do a religious themed tree....Did anyone notice that teeny tree on the piano they had? Pathetic. I believe the only ornament on it was one that said JOY, which Josh had to remind us of Michelle's motto...Jesus, Others, Youself...I still don't see that in her.

[Mrsjumbo]

I'm Catholic & I enjoyed the Christmas trees on the altar during mass today.

Not only razor scooters- in that Duggar christmas video in the background one of the kids was throwing a football- indoors! Really, it was sunny & in the 50's in AR today. If J'chelle would actually parent she would tell them they have to roughhouse play outside.

[Joe Jitsu913]

I'm amused by the fact that Jim Bob and Michelle's ancestors were most likely Pagan (Celts). Do they even acknowledge this part of their heritage?

Edited December 26, 2014 by Joe Jitsu913

[DoctorWhovian]

I'm certainly not an expert on Church History (though I'm married to someone who is), but my understanding is that the "don't drink alcohol" thing, which is clearly not directly from the Bible, came about largely as a product of the American Holiness Movement in the late 19th and early 20th century in North America. This strict focus on holy conduct as well as right belief flourished around the same time as prohibition in the US (and members of this movement were essential in getting prohibition passed). They saw alcohol as a social evil that created addicts and robbed families of fathers and providers because they were too often drunk.  So for them, avoiding alcohol was a social issue first and foremost.  

 

Most of the evangelical, more conservative aspects of religion came out in American during the Second Great Awakening in the 19th century. it's why you see so little of it in Europe, despite the fact that they have national religions (or countries with official or state religions). Obviously there are exceptions, but the level of Christianity, especially the kind you see out of the fundamentalist minority here, is very much an American thing. For example, there are probably some quiver full groups in various European countries, and even though most people in America look at it as pretty out there, it is still much more prevalent here than in there. (As well as other countries, only saying Europe because it's kind of the "other" [main] area of heavy Christian population. But the same goes for the rest of the world really.)

[awaken]

When I was working in Mozambique in 98 I remember seeing missionaries that I believe were Lutherans they were teaching the locals how to farm, you don't see the Duggar missionary machine doing anything like that.

 

I grew up evangelical, with a lot of time spent in fundamentalist circles as well.  I also (now, as an adult) see that the main focus of missions in these circles is usually to "share the good news".  In their logic, what good is providing clean water, a roof over peoples' heads, farming assistance, etc when they don't know Jesus and will be separated from God forever when they die.  That is seen as addressing earthly, temporary needs instead of their REAL need, to know Jesus as Lord and Savior.  So I understand where the Duggars are coming from, asking people if they wanted good news.  We were taught as jr.  high students to approach strangers in train stations and on the street and witness to them with tracts.  Now I am embarrassed at having done that, not having any life experience or understanding of where those people might have been coming from spiritually, or what they may have been through in their lives.  How offensive to have clueless teens harassing you about where you think you'll spend eternity- I'd never listen to the message if approached in that manner. 

 

I went to a college that was associated with a Mennonite denomination, that was service-oriented, and it was the first time I learned about being an example for Christ by actually partnering with other religious groups (even, gasp, Muslims!) and providing humanitarian aid.  Missionaries, and students doing service-learning did all kinds of projects to build interfaith peacemaking, setting up water cisterns, farming assistance, micro loans to women's small businesses, etc.  I now go to a Christian church that is focused on social justice and showing God's love through caring for the poor, hungry, oppressed, and hurting.  So much more powerful, I believe, to put your actions and time where your mouth is, and SHOW your love for others, and not just try to convince them to avoid hell but do little to address their physical needs.

 

My Catholic Church usually had a birthday cake after kids Christmas Eve mass and we sang happy birthday to Jesus. That's not a Duggar only thing, it's a way to help kids understand the meaning of the holiday.

Yep, pretty typical in my view as well.  Usually as a way to impart a simple message about the meaning of Christmas to kids.  As someone else said, no, a group of adults would not likely have a 'happy birthday Jesus" party, but it's an easy way to help kids understand, and they can learn more of the nuances the older they get  :)  

[Barb23]

I'm Catholic & I enjoyed the Christmas trees on the altar during mass today.

Not only razor scooters- in that Duggar christmas video in the background one of the kids was throwing a football- indoors! Really, it was sunny & in the 50's in AR today. If J'chelle would actually parent she would tell them they have to roughhouse play outside.

My church (Methodist) also has a tree at the altar, tastefully decorated.

Regarding the "kids" playing inside, I'm still waiting to see the Derby cars whiz by in the house.

[Micks Picks]

I always hear "we're pregnant" or whatever.  It bothers me too.  I had a sister-in-law who was so into her husband that she always referred to where "we" worked although she was a SAHM.  She also became one of his family and looked down on her own, although it had nothing to do with social status or education.  Very odd, actually kind of sick, imo.

 

I was auditing a program to see if it was meeting its goals some years ago and the location fascinated me.  It looked like a former convent or monastery.  Naturally I got all off track and had to research the history of the building (handy for me, I was there and had authority) and it had formerly belonged to WCTU and some of the women and men did in fact live there.  They were done with their drunken families.  Can't blame them.  I find it very interesting that the drunkenmess rates are today so much lower than they were at the time.  At this time of year I used to take walks around neighborhoods and hear huge family fights fueled by booze.  Great way to spend your life--NOT.   I can't bear to be around drunks.  The sister-in-law referenced above had a husband who drank always, and when he finally quit, it became apparent how much she drank.  She never stopped.  

Oh, btw I'm Catholic too with years of boarding school and Jesuit educators.  But I often had heard people refer to "say a prayer to St. Anthony" or to St Jude or Mary.  So I see why others have the impression that we pray to saints or Mary.  If the people who are part of the religion say it, maybe they don't even know the correct theology.  It did always bother me when people say we pray to statues, though.  That seemed ignorant.  Does anyway ever have the thought to have a dead ancestor or spouse or someone, look after you?  Doesn't anyone ever think these things?

[Missy Vixen]

After watching Will & Zoe's (Little Couple) baptisms, I realized the Duggars have never mentioned or shown baptisms/christenings. Does the Duggar Church of the Warehouse religion (or Gothardism??) not believe in them or later on, confirmations? Since everything else in that family from births to deaths is televised, I don't think they adhere to that religious sacrament. Does anyone have some insider info?

The Duggars claim to be "Independent Baptists" but their beliefs and practices (IMHO) are fundamentalist. I grew up in the Assemblies of God (more fundamentalists!) and they believe in baby dedications. In other words, one gets up in front of the entire church and the pastor dedicates the baby to Jesus. This is during the Sunday morning service. If there is any celebration of this event, it's private. Baptisms are held when the child is old enough to profess faith and testify they have accepted Christ as their Savior.

 

It's interesting that the Duggars would not want coverage of such a seemingly innocuous practice, let alone the rest of their much more objectionable to the viewing public beliefs. I'm guessing there's a reason the home church windows are covered with dark plastic for services.

[lilly6]

I just wonder how many of the people they "encountered" on their mission trip said "Yes, yes, Jesus, evangelical, sure, sure.." or something like that just to get the Duggars out of their faces.

[mbutterfly]

The Duggars claim to be "Independent Baptists" but their beliefs and practices (IMHO) are fundamentalist. I grew up in the Assemblies of God (more fundamentalists!) and they believe in baby dedications. In other words, one gets up in front of the entire church and the pastor dedicates the baby to Jesus. This is during the Sunday morning service. If there is any celebration of this event, it's private. Baptisms are held when the child is old enough to profess faith and testify they have accepted Christ as their Savior.

 

It's interesting that the Duggars would not want coverage of such a seemingly innocuous practice, let alone the rest of their much more objectionable to the viewing public beliefs. I'm guessing there's a reason the home church windows are covered with dark plastic for services.

Raising my hand because I have another question: In home churches like the Duggars, how are the sacraments handled? In my own denomination we have infant baptisms (or any time later -- but only once) and then some time after the age of 13 or so, the child attends confirmation classes and then joins the church by a profession of faith. We also have an open communion. And I'm also quite familiar with the tradition of infant dedication followed by baptism for a youth or adult accompanied by a profession of faith. I assume the latter is the practice with the Duggars, but does the individual join the church and thus commit to serve? Is there weekly communion? Are the elements simply blessed by the father in the household? 

Thanks in advance. I keep wondering these things. 

[Barb23]

The Duggars claim to be "Independent Baptists" but their beliefs and practices (IMHO) are fundamentalist. I grew up in the Assemblies of God (more fundamentalists!) and they believe in baby dedications. In other words, one gets up in front of the entire church and the pastor dedicates the baby to Jesus. This is during the Sunday morning service. If there is any celebration of this event, it's private. Baptisms are held when the child is old enough to profess faith and testify they have accepted Christ as their Savior.

 

It's interesting that the Duggars would not want coverage of such a seemingly innocuous practice, let alone the rest of their much more objectionable to the viewing public beliefs. I'm guessing there's a reason the home church windows are covered with dark plastic for services.

Thanks for the explanation. I couldn't think of the word "dedication" when I was writing that post. I think that's what the Jones family (TLC Texas family w/quints) called it & IIRC they are Baptist.

This is just another area Boob has control over. I know I'm dreaming but I wonder what would happen if one of the kids wants to change religions, as happens in a lot of families esp. with marriage? But since they are raised believing their religion is "the" religion & they have to marry someone w/similar beliefs, this will never happen.

[GEML]

I honestly have no idea how they handle communion. Nearly every Baptist tradition still holds it as SOME form of tradition, if not a sacrament, so one would think they would do it at least quarterly. And it would be deacon or congregation led, not pastor led, which is usually a big Baptist no-no because of division of power, but with the Duggars? Who knows.

[NausetGirl]

I'm Catholic & I enjoyed the Christmas trees on the altar during mass today.

Not only razor scooters- in that Duggar christmas video in the background one of the kids was throwing a football- indoors! Really, it was sunny & in the 50's in AR today. If J'chelle would actually parent she would tell them they have to roughhouse play outside.

 

If they were still living in the 3-bedroom, 1-bath house, she would, that's for sure...

[lampshades]

Raising my hand because I have another question: In home churches like the Duggars, how are the sacraments handled? In my own denomination we have infant baptisms (or any time later -- but only once) and then some time after the age of 13 or so, the child attends confirmation classes and then joins the church by a profession of faith. We also have an open communion. And I'm also quite familiar with the tradition of infant dedication followed by baptism for a youth or adult accompanied by a profession of faith. I assume the latter is the practice with the Duggars, but does the individual join the church and thus commit to serve? Is there weekly communion? Are the elements simply blessed by the father in the household? 

Thanks in advance. I keep wondering these things. 

 

There was no communion at the two Evangelical services that I have ever attended. I don't think the churches were quite as fundamentalist as the Duggars but they were non-denominational and services were held in a community center and a preschool gymnasium, respectively. I found it strange coming from only ever attending Lutheran and Catholic masses but it might not be that uncommon.

Edited December 27, 2014 by lampshades

[floridamom]

I have always been of the opinion that ALL services in all churches are "open for all". Everyone is invited to participate, or simply visit and observe. Any real church is welcoming and would LOVE for us to learn about their faith, services and practices...Having said that, those dark plastic bags over the Duggar "church" windows is excluding and keeping people out. How is that right? Regular Sunday church services, across the board are not invitation only, or so I thought. Who do they think they are? It only goes to show me, that they think they are elite. So Unchristian of them IMO.

If Jim Bob isn't a real ordained minister, I, too, ask how can they conduct a real service? What do they do about those dedications, etc? One would need a real minister for SOME things, wouldn't they?

[WTFFF]

I'm sure they'd claim it's for "safety reasons."  Because they're perfectly okay with viewers knowing exactly where they live and congregate, but god forbid the riffraff get to interact with them.  If they really view their show as a "ministry," you'd think they'd be thrilled to have the possibility of winning over souls who came by purely out of curiosity. 

[Barb23]

Gil & Kelly Bates' church, Bible Baptist Church, welcomes visitors. There is an open invitation on their site.

[floridamom]

I googled Ken Ham, the guy posted on another thread here as writing the Duggar-like science text books that they are taught from. Very interesting stuff here.

A little while ago, I read on the internet that the Pope was asked about the Big Bang Theory vs a Creator, what he had to say about that. He gave an insightful and thought provoking response, he said whose to say that a Creator didn't will or "say" BANG? A good point IMO, and there we were. I would like to ask the Duggars about that one!

Another spiritual note re: Jim Bob and his personal connection with perfect guidance from the Almighty in all things pondered; since Michelle thinks that she and her husband are so perfectly guided by the Almighty and that they have a special connection with Him, why does she not believe that a pope can also pray for this guidance

[Libby96]

I have attended Evangelical churches (Baptist and Evangelical Free) my whole life, and communion is practiced regularly, but not weekly. There are no hard and fast rules, but it is usually once a month. The bread and "wine" (grape juice) are seen as symbols of Christ's body and blood, and it is considered a time to remember Christ's sacrifice and confess sin to God before you partake.

I would imagine the Duggars, being Baptist, do something similar, but I find their whole "closed door" mentality about their church odd, so who knows. Most churches of all varieties of denominations are more than happy to welcome visitors.

[DoctorWhovian]

Ken Ham is hilarious. One of his websites (answer in genesis maybe?) has "answers" for how science can make sense with religion. The amount of mental hoop jumping that he has to make in order for his "answers" is hilarious. There was one about how stars that are more than ~6000 light years away can be seen from Earth (because it would take longer than the universe has existed for their light to reach us, and obviously you can't deny that stars exist and are super far away, there's pretty hard evidence to both of these things). So his version of events is that the light must have been created already on its way to Earth so that we would see them now. 

 

I'm basically atheist, although if there was ever evidence of the existence of a higher power, then I would have no issue believing (and my main problem is with organized religion, not so much the belief in a higher power). But I come from a Jewish family, although I was raised celebrating Christmas (never been to church as a family, although sometimes I went with my neighbors or friends because I thought it was fun, so I've been in some Christmas plays and been to VBS, etc.). As an adult, I wanted to explore Judaism because I want to pass the traditions to my kids, and so in college I attended some Jewish events. The first one I went to was for Rosh Hashanah(New Years). The rabbi in charge talked about how we were celebrating the 6000 some odd year, but that scientists say the world is much older. I was about ready to roll my eyes and leave, but he continued that since science has evidence of the Earth being older, we have to adjust our beliefs, so that even though the world might be billions of years old, the creation of Adam was ~6000 years ago. And since we have evidence of earlier species of humanoids (Australopithecus, homo erectus, etc.), they also existed, but that Adam was the first "man" and the first person with a soul. Obviously I'm paraphrasing, but it really stuck out to me that here's this guy representing at least a sect of a religion that is willing to adapt to new information, and I may still not believe in the whole Adam/soul/god thing, I can respect everything he said.

 

So I've really enjoyed some of the thoughts of the new pope and I think he also will stick to most of his the standard religious beliefs, but his willingness to progress is something to admire. Even John Paul II accepted evolution as true (even if they still don't admit to the speciation of humans).

[Rhondinella]

There was no communion at the two Evangelical services that I have ever attended. I don't think the churches were quite as fundamentalist as the Duggars but they were non-denominational and services were held in a community center and a preschool gymnasium, respectively. I found it strange coming from only ever attending Lutheran and Catholic masses but it might not be that uncommon.

 

 

Yes, evangelical churches, and really any denomination (or non-denomination) "lower" (in terms of liturgy) than say the Methodists generally do not serve communion every service.  As stated above, the frequency of it varies, but most do it at least 4 times a year, and then maybe also on holidays and during Lent.  My own denomination expects ministers to administer the sacrament once every quarter, but ministers and congregations can choose to do it more often if they like.  My own congregation does it at least once a month.

 

On the few occasions that we've done it more than one week in a row for some reason, our pastor tells me he gets complaints that we're doing  it "too often" and becoming "too Catholic."  Because heaven forbid!

[Sew Sumi]

Stuff fundies say about birth control: 

 

The meat of the matter, by the "pastor," a fellow named Kevin Swanson (affiliated with the deposed Doug Phillips), is as follows: ""I’m beginning to get some evidence from certain doctors and certain scientists that have done research on women’s wombs after they’ve gone through the surgery, and they’ve compared the wombs of women who were on the birth control pill to those who were not on the birth control pill. And they have found that with women who are on the birth control pill, there are these little tiny fetuses, these little babies, that are embedded into the womb. They’re just like dead babies. They’re on the inside of the womb. And these wombs of women who have been on the birth control pill effectively have become graveyards for lots and lots of little babies."

 

What the actual fuck??? I want to know who these "certain doctors/scientists" are and what institution gave them their degrees. This is the stuff fundies buy hook, line, and sinker. Similar scare tactics by good ole Dr. Wheat sent the Duggars down the Quiverfull rabbit hole. 

 

Another buddy of Dougie's, Scott Brown, sympathized with the President of Turkey, who recently said that birth control = "treason." Fundamentalists of a feather stick together, even if they otherwise hate each other's guts. How ironic. They make crackpots look sane.

[natyxg]

Well holy shit! If that's not a scare tactic I don't know what is. The sad thing is that a lot of uneducated people will buy it.

[Missy Vixen]

Raising my hand because I have another question: In home churches like the Duggars, how are the sacraments handled? In my own denomination . 

I can't say how they deal with the sacraments because they don't want others visiting their church without an invitation. One has to wonder what is going on in that building and why they are so secretive about it. I don't buy that they're covering the windows for "security" reasons. I'm guessing that they're participating in one or more fundamentalist practices (anointing in oil, speaking in tongues, faith healing via the laying on of hands, prophesying, etcetera) and do not want this known by 19KAC viewers. The lack of a pastor/formal church body is another interesting issue. So, Jim Boob and Josh know more about preaching and God's Word than a pastor who actually went to college and seminary? This is more the "gospel according to the Duggar family" than learning from someone who might actually know what they're talking about.

 

Communion was once a month at the fundamentalist church I attended, which also engaged in all of the above practices. The doors were open to anyone who wanted to visit.

[Sew Sumi]

Even Swanson realized how crazy the "tiny fetus" stuff was and took it off his website. The You Tube video came from someone who was smart enough to save the crazytown sermon before it was taken down. 

 

(edited b/c a post snuck in between that wasn't on the same topic) 

Edited December 27, 2014 by Sew Sumi

[mbutterfly]

I can't say how they deal with the sacraments because they don't want others visiting their church without an invitation. One has to wonder what is going on in that building and why they are so secretive about it. I don't buy that they're covering the windows for "security" reasons. I'm guessing that they're participating in one or more fundamentalist practices (anointing in oil, speaking in tongues, faith healing via the laying on of hands, prophesying, etcetera) and do not want this known by 19KAC viewers. 

So, am I correct that the Duggar's cover the windows only during worship? I thought they were worshipping in their living room. Or is it in another building that always has covered windows? Because any of those possibilities is rather creepy and does suggest some very outside-the-mainstream worship practices. 

Edited December 27, 2014 by mbutterfly

[natyxg]

I can't say how they deal with the sacraments because they don't want others visiting their church without an invitation. One has to wonder what is going on in that building and why they are so secretive about it. I don't buy that they're covering the windows for "security" reasons. I'm guessing that they're participating in one or more fundamentalist practices (anointing in oil, speaking in tongues, faith healing via the laying on of hands, prophesying, etcetera) and do not want this known by 19KAC viewers. The lack of a pastor/formal church body is another interesting issue. So, Jim Boob and Josh know more about preaching and God's Word than a pastor who actually went to college and seminary? This is more the "gospel according to the Duggar family" than learning from someone who might actually know what they're talking about.

 

Communion was once a month at the fundamentalist church I attended, which also engaged in all of the above practices. The doors were open to anyone who wanted to visit.

 

I too have found it odd that they are people who made themselves famous because of their "christian" beliefs, but we aren't allowed to see them in their own church. hell, I found it odd that they don't even GO to a Church but do Church service in their house or something?

 

I don't know much about protestantism or the different fundamentalist beliefs, but I am guessing that whatever the Duggars do would probably be considered weird for more mainstream people. What that could be, I don't know. But I think the Duggars are VERY savvy when it comes to creating their public persona, which is "sweet, christian family who has conservative values, but it's harmless and a throwback to those times of chivalry that are lost" and NOT "weirdo cult".  In a way I kind of admire how they turned a one hour special into such a successful business, but it wouldn't surprise me if skeletons came out of that closet at some point.

So, am I correct that the Duggar's cover the windows only during worship? I thought they were worshipping in their living room. Or is it in another building that always has covered windows? Because any of those possibilities is rather creepy and does suggest some very outside-the-mainstream worship practices. 

 

I think it's in like their garage or some other building outside of the house, and they put black garbage bags over the windows during the services. That's what I vaguely remember from an episode from long ago. I don't remember if they do this always or just when the cameras are there.

Edited December 27, 2014 by natyxg

[mbutterfly]

Jehovah's Witness buildings of worship have no windows.

Hope this isn't too off topic, but do you know why? Is this a part of some tradition. I remember many years ago when we started locking our church at night and many members were upset that the sanctuary was not perpetually open to anyone who might need it. 

[NausetGirl]

I can't say how they deal with the sacraments because they don't want others visiting their church without an invitation. One has to wonder what is going on in that building and why they are so secretive about it. I don't buy that they're covering the windows for "security" reasons. I'm guessing that they're participating in one or more fundamentalist practices (anointing in oil, speaking in tongues, faith healing via the laying on of hands, prophesying, etcetera) and do not want this known by 19KAC viewers. The lack of a pastor/formal church body is another interesting issue. So, Jim Boob and Josh know more about preaching and God's Word than a pastor who actually went to college and seminary? This is more the "gospel according to the Duggar family" than learning from someone who might actually know what they're talking about.

 

Agree - I'm not buying the "security reasons" story either.  It just sounds off. The only reason people cover windows is to prevent outsiders from seeing inside.  Something must be going on that they don't want seen.  And in a worship service, what the heck could that be?  Very very odd.  That they have "their own church" at all is equally odd to me.  You know, for a family that needs to do so much themselves and trusts so little, the fact that they BROADCAST portions of their life to 1000s of outsiders is even weirder. 

Edited December 28, 2014 by NausetGirl

[SoSueMe]

 

The meat of the matter, by the "pastor," a fellow named Kevin Swanson (affiliated with the deposed Doug Phillips), is as follows: ""I’m beginning to get some evidence from certain doctors and certain scientists that have done research on women’s wombs after they’ve gone through the surgery, and they’ve compared the wombs of women who were on the birth control pill to those who were not on the birth control pill. And they have found that with women who are on the birth control pill, there are these little tiny fetuses, these little babies, that are embedded into the womb. They’re just like dead babies. They’re on the inside of the womb. And these wombs of women who have been on the birth control pill effectively have become graveyards for lots and lots of little babies."

 

 

I am floored by this information. Is this Swanson dude affiliated with the Duggars, do you know? I would hate to think that they are that crazy. Sometimes I think it should be possible to sue for religious guidance malpractice.