S06.E10: START

[Bannon]

15 minutes ago, MJ Frog said:

I understand, but I was responding to this exchange:

Whiporee asserted that there was no evidence to charge Paige -- a very specific point -- to which you replied that there was plenty of physical evidence of Paige's involvement. If I have misunderstood your point I apologize, but it sounded like a direct rebuttal of what Whiporee was saying about charges needing proof. No one, neither myself or anyone else that I have seen, is disputing that the FBI could, and very likely would, harass Paige. However, several people, myself and Whiporee included, believe that there is no evidence to charge her. The physical evidence, if it were collected and conclusive, would be virtually useless. Any evidence to charge her, or make a deal with her, would have to come from Paige herself.

I should have been more clear. We don't know what evidence can be collected. I don't think it likely that there will be nothing to tie Paige to KGB safehouses, garages, and cars. Hair would be least incriminating, although now that I think about it, substantial hair in wigs would be very incriminating. I don't know if Paige ever wore any, however.  Fingerprints would be more strongly incriminating than small amounts of hair, and after several years, I think it unlikely that all fingerprints have been wiped away. Anyways, I can't say for sure that there would be enough physical evidence to tie Paige to KGB operations for charges to be brought, but to assume there wouldn't be seems a stretch as well. There certainly is no reason to think that Paige will avoid the FBI pressure tactics for years and years.

[Marianna]

26 minutes ago, vixenbynight said:

Because Henry truly thought that ALL of their "trips" were about "business". He is going to look back at everything and really wonder why he never questioned anything. He just had complete faith and trust in his family.

Sigh.....

I don’t really agree with this or the statements that he held no grudge.  Henry wasn’t holding a grudge, because he was really already over them. He had essentially no relationship with Elizabeth. He had more of a relationship with Philip, but the one-two blow of  first telling him he might have to leave school and then leaving him over Thanksgiving left a mark. He was far more open and candid with Stan on the car ride  than with Philip. He wasn’t the type to have a big blowup, but I think he had emotionally sealed himself off from then to a great extent. 

Edited June 1, 2018 by Marianna

[TaurusRose]

13 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Unfortunately, while I liked large portions of the finale, the central scene -- Stan letting them go -- simply doesn't work for me. At all. 

I could buy Stan passing on the encoded message. Had circumstances permitted it, I could even have bought him letting Oleg escape, because he is someone who has been known to put the personal ahead of the national. But the Jenningses? Knowing, or having a very good idea, of what they've done over the years? Nope. I don't care how disillusioned Stan was, and how much he may have identified on some level with Philip's attitude. First of all, attempts at establishing a moral equivalence notwithstanding, I don't think Stan is so thoroughly disillusioned that he believes that his entire FBI career has been a waste, or that there's no value in what they're trying to do. Maybe he no longer wants to be a Cold Warrior, but he's spent years putting away violent white supremacists, and he's seen first-hand the absolute brutality of the KGB. The FBI may have blood on its hands, too, but I simply don't believe that Stan Beeman would so thoroughly buy into the idea that spying is spying wherever you do it that he would do what he did here. Especially given that, while I think Philip was being (mostly) sincere, Stan could never have been sure how much Philip was playing him in this scene. The guy has been lying to him for years. Even if Stan gets why he would have had to do that, and is willing to allow for the possibility that their friendship was genuine, the possibility that he was being played by these people yet again would, I think, have factored into his decision.

Beyond that, I think the show is guilty of forgetting that relationships that matter to us because they've been given significant narrative attention shouldn't necessarily have the same weight to our characters. I believe that Stan and Philip genuinely care about each other, as do Stan and Henry. But let's not pretend they've been devoted bosom buddies for years. Philip and Stan are friends, and good ones. Because of the relative isolation of their respective lives, that friendship has more emotional significance for both than it might otherwise have assumed. But they are both extremely busy men who have their own lives and other connections. Stan has been with Renee for several years. He has a son who he has at least some relationship with. He's friendly enough with Aderholdt and his wife to socialize together outside of work. I just don't believe he's so deeply emotionally tied to Philip that, even after coming into the garage prepared to make an arrest, he's willing to overlook the fact that he and his wife are spies who have been involved in the murders of people Stan cared about. It isn't like Philip nursed Stan through advanced cancer or took his family in after their home was destroyed in a fire. They were friends - maybe close ones, but not extraordinarily so.  Similarly, while Stan and Henry have an unusually close relationship, Stan is not Henry's surrogate father and Henry is not Stan's foster son. Henry has his own parents, one of whom he has a reasonably close relationship with. He's also been away at school for long portions of the last three years. Stan is a trusted adult, but I don't actually believe that Henry "loves" him. He likes and respects him. Trying to sell it as more than that is, IMO, symptomatic of the exaggerated relationship we're supposed to believe Stan and the Jenningses had in order for Stan's decision to work. 

6

This. This is why my response to the finale is "that was crap."  I could not buy that and I was pretty disgusted with Stan. I do, however, l like what you said about Paige.

[txhorns79]

Quote

Because Henry truly thought that ALL of their "trips" were about "business". He is going to look back at everything and really wonder why he never questioned anything. He just had complete faith and trust in his family.

I hope he doesn't.  He trusted his parents, and didn't have Paige's deep suspicions concerning everything they did.  I think that's entirely normal.  My father traveled a lot when I was young for business, and my mother sometimes went with them.  Obviously, they didn't have Philip and Elizabeth's crazy "work" emergencies, and came home at normal hours, but for all I know, they could have been super secret spies doing spy stuff on the business trips.  I never questioned it though, because it was my normal experience. 

[Marianna]

Just now, taurusrose said:

Similarly, while Stan and Henry have an unusually close relationship, Stan is not Henry's surrogate father and Henry is not Stan's foster son. Henry has his own parents, one of whom he has a reasonably close relationship with. He's also been away at school for long portions of the last three years. Stan is a trusted adult, but I don't actually believe that Henry "loves" him. He likes and respects him. Trying to sell it as more than that is, IMO, symptomatic of the exaggerated relationship we're supposed to believe Stan and the Jenningses had in order for Stan's decision to work. 

Henry, I think, has a deep affection for Stan, whom he has clearly used as an escape over years. As I noted above, he spoke very freely to him in the car when Stan was pumping him for info (which alone should’ve been Stan’s clue that Henry knew nothing). His conversations with Philip have been much more stilted. On he other hand, Stan does love Henry.  His relationship with Matthew is basically nil, and I think he has consciously seen Henrybas a semi-replacement.  I do believe Henry will eventually come to see Stan as a surrogate father and will love him. While I believe that Stan will protect Paige to the extent he can, which is far less, I think that is more out of their mutually-assured destruction thing, since Paige knows that Stan let them go. All he really needs to do is tell her to NOT SAY ANYTHING, since Paige’s biggest risk is an unforced error - an inadvertent confession. 

[Steph J]

5 hours ago, benteen said:

It's not a bad idea though Paige has nothing to trade with.  She knows that her mom worked with a B team but they are likely gone and Paige doesn't know their names or where to find them.  Her only chance is to plead ignorance/say she was coerced and hope that Stan and maybe Aderholt will be able to protect her.

I disagree that Paige has nothing to trade with. She could give dates and locations of missions and maybe even the names of targets. Obviously some missions went sideways and the authorities would already be investigating (in which case Paige could still provide them with evidence that they don't have yet, possibly even evidence that acts as the missing piece of the puzzle that brings it together), but presumably during the period that we didn't see because of the time jump there were also missions that went smoothly and people who were compromised that the authorities haven't even discovered yet. Paige doesn't know much (and, really, given how Elizabeth kept her in the dark, Paige probably doesn't even quite know what she does know because she lacks the context to make sense of it), but her information could still be useful.

On another note, I have not been able to stop thinking that moment when Elizabeth sees Paige standing on the train platform. That sequence is straight up one of the best I've ever seen on television.

[hellmouse]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

And also just great to hear Philip ask him to pull over calling him Arkady Ivanovich. Remember when Elizabeth called the Rez about him in S1 and called him Ar-KAY-dee like Americans do? (The first time I came across that name I think I thought it was ARK-adee.

One of the things I've enjoyed about hearing the Russian dialogue is how the names sound different with the addition of the patronymic. I like the way Arkady says Oleg Igorevich - it makes his name sound like Olegigor rather than O-leg. 

I wonder what Philip's Russian last name is. Back in the end of Season 5, when they were planning to return, Elizabeth had said she'd take his name. 

They have always been good at maintaining cover names when posing as couples. But it's really hard for me to imagine them calling each other Nadia and Mischa, or Nadezhda and Mikhail, when they're at home alone. 

I could see Elizabeth wanting to follow the Zhukov directive and never talk about their lives as Philip and Elizabeth Jennings, only about their new lives as Nadezhda and Mikhail Whateverevich. But I don't see Philip letting her do that. I wonder if EST ever came to Russia. Probably not.

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, Steph J said:

I disagree that Paige has nothing to trade with. She could give dates and locations of missions and maybe even the names of targets. Obviously some missions went sideways and the authorities would already be investigating (in which case Paige could still provide them with evidence that they don't have yet, possibly even evidence that acts as the missing piece of the puzzle that brings it together), but presumably during the period that we didn't see because of the time jump there were also missions that went smoothly and people who were compromised that the authorities haven't even discovered yet. Paige doesn't know much (and, really, given how Elizabeth kept her in the dark, Paige probably doesn't even quite know what she does know because she lacks the context to make sense of it), but her information could still be useful.

On another note, I have not been able to stop thinking that moment when Elizabeth sees Paige standing on the train platform. That sequence is straight up one of the best I've ever seen on television.

Yeah, she might have enough to trade that she gets away with little or no prison time, and Henry gets left alone. It doesn't help her that the actual ringleaders of the homicidal gang got away: it increases the chance that a pound of flesh is demanded from Paige.

[sistermagpie]

28 minutes ago, Marianna said:

I don’t really agree with this or the statements that he held no grudge.  Henry wasn’t holding a grudge, because he was really already over them. He had essentially no relationship with Elizabeth. He had more of a relationship with Philip, but the one-two blow of  first telling him he might have to leave school and then leaving him over Thanksgiving left a mark. He was far more open and candid with Stan on the car ride  than with Philip. He wasn’t the type to have a big blowup, but I think he had emotionally sealed himself off from then to a great extent. 

I disagree. There was nothing more candid about Henry's conversation with Stan than there was in any conversation with Philip. Especially here. He wasn't being emotionally sealed off he was affectionately telling his father and mother that of course he knew they loved him and that they thought he was great. He expected to talk to his father again soon because they talk--candidly--all the time. Suggesting your dad let mom drive home because he sounds maudlin is pretty candid.

It would be especially terrible for Henry to actually emotionally seal himself off from his father for telling he might have to leave school--he's not that spoiled that he can't love somebody who doesn't have enough money for him.

20 minutes ago, Marianna said:

His conversations with Philip have been much more stilted.

No they aren't at all. This season they've often been talking about something more serious than Henry bitching about his weird parents with Uncle Stan. That in no way makes their conversations stilted. Of course it's harder to tell your kid your business is failing so you don't have the money he needs than it is to ask a teenager if he often stays with relatives or if he's got a girlfriend now. That conversation at the end of this ep was no doubt hella stilted.

20 minutes ago, Marianna said:

I do believe Henry will eventually come to see Stan as a surrogate father and will love him.

Becoming the surrogate father the kid loves doesn't take much.

Also, there is no reason to say that Stan's relationship with Matthew is nil. Especially now that all we know about it is that Matthew wants to live with his girlfriend and Stan knows this and has opinions on it.

Parental relationships are complicated and lasting. Having found out his father was a Russian spy will probably solidify Philip even more as a dominant force in Henry's life and identity. The uncle that Henry loves and may or may not grow up to have a close relationship with in everyday life is not going to replace him. Same with his mother, actually. You don't have to be a great parent to be the parent.

13 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

I wonder what Philip's Russian last name is. Back in the end of Season 5, when they were planning to return, Elizabeth had said she'd take his name. 

IMDB had his brother's last name listed as Semyonov, fwiw. Mischa jr.'s name was that too. So back then I thought wow, we got a last name! Maybe once upon a time they thought we might need it!

Edited June 1, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Erin9]

21 minutes ago, Marianna said:

Henry, I think, has a deep affection for Stan, whom he has clearly used as an escape over years. As I noted above, he spoke very freely to him in the car when Stan was pumping him for info (which alone should’ve been Stan’s clue that Henry knew nothing). His conversations with Philip have been much more stilted. On he other hand, Stan does love Henry.  His relationship with Matthew is basically nil, and I think he has consciously seen Henrybas a semi-replacement.  I do believe Henry will eventually come to see Stan as a surrogate father and will love him. While I believe that Stan will protect Paige to the extent he can, which is far less, I think that is more out of their mutually-assured destruction thing, since Paige knows that Stan let them go. All he really needs to do is tell her to NOT SAY ANYTHING, since Paige’s biggest risk is an unforced error - an inadvertent confession. 

I’ll never go for Stan as a father figure. He’ll look out for Henry- and Paige. He’ll be a friend or an uncle. But parent-like? No. Henry is nearly grown. Highly independent. Lives at school.  I don’t see it. They’ve never related to each other like that anyway. 

Henry spoke to Stan as a friend not a parent. He and Philip spoke regularly on the phone and seemed to have developed a close relationship imo. (Henry usually read his dad fairly well imo.) In fact, that was one thing Paige was freaking out about- that Henry would lose his relationship with his dad. He wouldn’t get to talk to him. She knew it was important to Henry and knew he’d be devestated. Stan won’t be some slide in replacement. 

Edited June 1, 2018 by Erin9

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Henry spoke to Stan as a friend not a parent. He and Philip spoke regularly on the phone and seemed to have developed a close relationship imo. (Henry usually read his dad fairly well imo.) In fact, that was one thing Paige was freaking out about- that Henry would lose his relationship with his dad. He wouldn’t get to talk to him. She knew it was important to Henry and knew he’d be devestated. Stan won’t be some slide in replacement. 

Yes, I liked that she specifically said, "Henry will never talk to Dad again?" as if it was too ridiculous to consider. Philip was even fantasizing about living in hiding just so he could find a way to contact Henry and talk to him sometimes, maybe just to explain himself. (Luckily Paige can do that now.)

Henry's going to grow up even more desperate for answers about Philip than Mischa did. He doesn't know it but he very well might eventually get it. Especially with the Internet.

[Steph J]

26 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Yeah, she might have enough to trade that she gets away with little or no prison time, and Henry gets left alone. It doesn't help her that the actual ringleaders of the homicidal gang got away: it increases the chance that a pound of flesh is demanded from Paige.

Do you mean from the Russians or from the Feds?

As others have mentioned, Stan has an incentive to protect Paige because she knows that he let Philip and Elizabeth get away (arguably he has two incentives to help her, because he also wants to limit Henry's pain as much as possible).  I think that because of this, and because you could reasonably argue that she was in a position of vulnerability to her parents and that they manipulated her into doing the work and that she doesn't really know much of anything at all anyway, she wouldn't end up doing any jail time.  She would likely be flagged in some way and prevented from ever having a job in government, but I think her situation would be finessed so that she never goes to jail.

However, if Claudia didn't make it back to Russia and is still lurking around DC somewhere, then Paige is probably as good as dead because Claudia's not going to be leaving any loose ends.

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, Steph J said:

Do you mean from the Russians or from the Feds?

As others have mentioned, Stan has an incentive to protect Paige because she knows that he let Philip and Elizabeth get away (arguably he has two incentives to help her, because he also wants to limit Henry's pain as much as possible).  I think that because of this, and because you could reasonably argue that she was in a position of vulnerability to her parents and that they manipulated her into doing the work and that she doesn't really know much of anything at all anyway, she wouldn't end up doing any jail time.  She would likely be flagged in some way and prevented from ever having a job in government, but I think her situation would be finessed so that she never goes to jail.

However, if Claudia didn't make it back to Russia and is still lurking around DC somewhere, then Paige is probably as good as dead because Claudia's not going to be leaving any loose ends.

Either one. I think people just wholly underestimate how vindictive powerful bureaucrats can be. The FBI and DoJ is going to be deeply embarassed by this, and corpses stacked to the horizon means it can't be swept under the rug. Somebody has to pay, but the two best targets are unreachable. Paige is available for a mauling, however, and if they have to put Henry in the vise as well, to get Paige's attitude right, well that is not at all unusual for the FBI.

[queenanne]

Didn't the aforementioned teen sons of the RL spies discovered, legit hate their parents for at least a considerable amount of time for torpedo-ing their normal childhoods, etc.?  I thought I remembered an article to that effect.

The Henry stuff was moving and I legit cried, not gonna lie, partly because they did such a good job over the recent past of convincing us that Elizabeth barely cares he exists.  "He's your responsibility."  I can't even recall the last time they had a scene together (in the same room).  

For Paige, I'm not particularly concerned; and in fact her outcome is logical, because Paige was only ever playing at spycraft.  She probably couldn't contact anyone in "the network", even if she wanted to, and may in fact have been hoping that Claudia would show up and tell her what to do (I couldn't recall if we know whether or not Elizabeth told Paige that Claudia was outta there).  She might get held up for treason and spying at some point, but really, what did she learn?  She "trained".  To some extent, Paige is Russia's own fault; the KGB gave no damns that she was unsuited for "The Life", and just seem to have assumed that she'd be good at it because her parents would insist/patriarchy/etc.  Also, it's nothing but logical that Paige took to Claudia, because one constant of Paige all her life has been that she's been seeking for something large, overarching, and important to which to belong (Christianity, etc.).  This gave her a target, a reason to think she belonged and had a purpose.

Largely, my problems center around the fact that two such integral agents, who practically singlehandedly carried out the KGB's orders for years - Elizabeth foiled their one plot, basically, last episode - and back she goes to Russia, where she is greeted with, basically, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" - what happened to Claudia's dire predictions of ruin and rendering Elizabeth as Russian Public Enemy #1?  Why didn't all Russian emigres thus take up spying for fun and profit? 

In my headcanon, though; once Gorbachev is unquestionably supported P&E then become valuable assets, and probably get stuck running some version of the Charm School for the next generation.  IMO, they made the first dramatic-stake-lowering mistake of the series way back when they offered Philip the chance to "drop out of" the KGB, like there is any such thing, with all that he knows.  It should at least, to my way of thinking, be the catalyst that broke P&E irretrievably, if they were determined to go through with it. 

The show's greatest asset, to my way of thinking, for years, was the fact that no one could or would speak aloud about these weighty potential outcomes, because you could then imagine anything, including that Henry with his sharp breaking-and-entering skills and love of hockey, would take eagerly and well to a life being asked to spy for his country.  To put words to some of these dynamics earlier would in fact probably have cheapened them; but I do think that in some instances we deserved more than we got and less open-endedness at the eleventh hour.  

Edited June 1, 2018 by queenanne
Paragraphs. Important. Use Them.

[Penman61]

So...why was Philip getting fitted for a suit last week?

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, Steph J said:

On another note, I have not been able to stop thinking that moment when Elizabeth sees Paige standing on the train platform. That sequence is straight up one of the best I've ever seen on television.

It was another punch in the gut, wasn't it? I loved how that was done. I doubt anyone had any idea Paige would decide to stay behind. The setup for her obeying her parents was from the very beginning of the series. 

1 hour ago, hellmouse said:

But it's really hard for me to imagine them calling each other Nadia and Mischa, or Nadezhda and Mikhail, when they're at home alone. 

Because they aren't Nadia and Mischa, or Nadezhda and Mikhail, when theyre at home alone. They're Philip and Elizabeth. They have to be in order to maintain their covers. It's too important for them not to.

24 minutes ago, queenanne said:

what happened to Claudia's dire predictions of ruin and rendering Elizabeth as Russian Public Enemy #1?

Part of that might have been to keep Elizabeth in line, and part of that might have been Claudia not knowing just how much the Soviet Union was changing. She was a bigger hardliner than Elizabeth.

9 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

So...why was Philip getting fitted for a suit last week?

Instead of eating his feelings, he shopped them?

Edited June 1, 2018 by dubbel zout
antecedents are good; so is parallelism

[Razzberry]

11 hours ago, gunderda said:

So many things I want to know... will Paige go on to live a normal life? Will she just go back to school? Will they not look for her and question her? 

I like to think Paige goes on to become an investigative journalist whose work with cults won awards.  Best remembered for the following:

The Branch Dividians, by posing as a 14 year old runaway.

 

David Misgavige and The Scientologists

 

The FLDS, as a sister-wife to Warren Jeffs

 

Her harrowing days with Marshall Applewhite, when posing as a young post-op male

[meatball77]

53 minutes ago, Steph J said:

Do you mean from the Russians or from the Feds?

As others have mentioned, Stan has an incentive to protect Paige because she knows that he let Philip and Elizabeth get away (arguably he has two incentives to help her, because he also wants to limit Henry's pain as much as possible).  I think that because of this, and because you could reasonably argue that she was in a position of vulnerability to her parents and that they manipulated her into doing the work and that she doesn't really know much of anything at all anyway, she wouldn't end up doing any jail time.  She would likely be flagged in some way and prevented from ever having a job in government, but I think her situation would be finessed so that she never goes to jail.

However, if Claudia didn't make it back to Russia and is still lurking around DC somewhere, then Paige is probably as good as dead because Claudia's not going to be leaving any loose ends.

Spies typically either end up dead or end up being shipped back to their country in trade for spies caught there.  So if Paige (or even Elizabeth and Phillip) was caught she'd either be used by the Americans and put into custody or she'd be held by the Americans until they had someone who was locked in Russia that they wanted back and they'd be traded.  That's what happened when they caught all those spies ten years ago or so.  They were traded and are now celebrities.

[whiporee]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

I should have been more clear. We don't know what evidence can be collected. I don't think it likely that there will be nothing to tie Paige to KGB safehouses, garages, and cars. Hair would be least incriminating, although now that I think about it, substantial hair in wigs would be very incriminating. I don't know if Paige ever wore any, however.  Fingerprints would be more strongly incriminating than small amounts of hair, and after several years, I think it unlikely that all fingerprints have been wiped away. Anyways, I can't say for sure that there would be enough physical evidence to tie Paige to KGB operations for charges to be brought, but to assume there wouldn't be seems a stretch as well. There certainly is no reason to think that Paige will avoid the FBI pressure tactics for years and years.

I think you're giving the FBI both too much and not enough credit. First, they don't know where the safe houses are, and the people who did know have left. They might be able to trace the phone person, maybe, but who knows what she knows. Maybe enough, maybe not. They're working under the assumption that DC worked the same as Chicago, and it may have. But, in reality, their efforts at duplicating Chicago have been fruitless in DC. Had Stan not happened to be the next door neighbor of the Jennings, and had they not happened to invite them over for Thanksgiving, there's no evidence the FBI would have been caught them at all. They might -- might have gotten them after Andrei, but that's a big jump. He didn't know their names, and the description he gave, while accurate, only worked when confirming suspicions. But even if they find them, any traces of Paige can be explained away by the fact that she's their daughter, and it's perfectly reasonable to assume that stray hairs, stray fingerprints and such are normal in a family setting. Also, that Paige might not know what the houses were for, why she was there, any of that. If she doesn't admit to working with her parents, there's not a lot to connect her to their work.

On the second side, though, you're assigning the FBI an vindictive streak I don't think they'd have. The illegals they were after have been stopped, but they are also GONE. Nothing about this makes them look good at all, and I think they'd just as soon have it go away as pursue it. So if they get vicious towards Paige and Henry, it will just accentuate that a KGB operative lived across the street from a counter-intelligence officer for seven years, had dinners with both he and his supervisor, things like that. I think you might be right about the punitive nature of bureaucracy, but even they have people to answer to, and those people would much rather this disappear than be brought into the sun. I'm sure they'd debrief the kids, but in reality, Henry doesn't know anything and if Paige told them the things she did know -- with an offer of immunity, which any lawyer would ask for and the FBI would give -- it would all be water under the bridge.

Likewise, now that the Jennings are gone, Oleg's got no reason not to decode the message, and if said message turns out to be about internal Soviet affairs, then he's not working against US interests, is he? I mean, I could see the FBI shooting him before I could see the DOJ convicting him. 

[dubbel zout]

9 minutes ago, meatball77 said:

Spies typically either end up dead or end up being shipped back to their country in trade for spies caught there. 

Was Paige considered an official spy? Her activities were so limited in scope.

[Steph J]

14 minutes ago, meatball77 said:

Spies typically either end up dead or end up being shipped back to their country in trade for spies caught there.  So if Paige (or even Elizabeth and Phillip) was caught she'd either be used by the Americans and put into custody or she'd be held by the Americans until they had someone who was locked in Russia that they wanted back and they'd be traded.  That's what happened when they caught all those spies ten years ago or so.  They were traded and are now celebrities.

But Paige isn't a Russian.  She was born and raised in America.  Would the US extradite one of its own citizens to another country?

Edited June 1, 2018 by Steph J

[planet17]

Just watched it. My god, I was certainly not expecting such an emotional finale. I don't remember getting emotional watching the show, but this episode was devastading. I loved it.

I also loved how it was super tense the whole time without having any "life in danger". It was episode of emotional stakes, that was such a great choice. And I also loved that it ended with multiple open questions.

What a great finale!

[scartact]

1 hour ago, Steph J said:

On another note, I have not been able to stop thinking that moment when Elizabeth sees Paige standing on the train platform. That sequence is straight up one of the best I've ever seen on television.

There's several moments my mind won't let go of from the finale, including this scene. The way Liz has to control herself as much as possible, but you can see her just falling apart, and that the only thing Philip can do is sit by her in shock.

Other scenes? The dream sequence and that final image of Liz framed by Erica's painting. Liz's gasp that they have to leave Henry (I will never be over it!). The heartbreak in Stan's voice as he says, "You were my best friend" and that he would have done anything for the Jennings. That gorgeous shot of Philip and Elizabeth sleeping in the car as Arkady drives them to Moscow.

Honestly, the more I sit and reflect on the finale, the more devastating I realize it is and I haven't quite shaken it yet.

[Umbelina]

7 minutes ago, Steph J said:

But Paige isn't a Russian.  She was born and raised in America.

Which makes it treason and not espionage.

8 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Was Paige considered an official spy? Her activities were so limited in scope.

She spied.  Therefore a spy.

I still say she can cut a deal.  She knows a LOT.  Names, dates, places, methods, cars and how often they rotate them out, one safe house, one major handler (Granny) and a former handler (Gabe.)  She did meet Gabe, right?  I think so.  When pressed, she will know things like how often Philip met with his agent, Martha, and exactly when that stopped.  Which cameras they used, descriptions of disguises available, the real garage of cars and disguises.

All of it seems like minutia, but those kind of clues are how law enforcement builds cases.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Umbelina

[meatball77]

5 minutes ago, Steph J said:

But Paige isn't a Russian.  She was born and raised in America.  Would the US extradite one of its own citizens to another country?

I think it would be more likely they'd just use her for what she knows if she wanted to stay.

But she's the daughter of spies, that's enough to think of her as Russian and she's low level enough that they probably would trade her without a second thought.

[Umbelina]

They can't trade a US citizen to a different country.  They could throw her ass in prison, but they couldn't trade her without her specific and probably written and notarized request.

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, whiporee said:

I think you're giving the FBI both too much and not enough credit. First, they don't know where the safe houses are, and the people who did know have left. They might be able to trace the phone person, maybe, but who knows what she knows. Maybe enough, maybe not. They're working under the assumption that DC worked the same as Chicago, and it may have. But, in reality, their efforts at duplicating Chicago have been fruitless in DC. Had Stan not happened to be the next door neighbor of the Jennings, and had they not happened to invite them over for Thanksgiving, there's no evidence the FBI would have been caught them at all. They might -- might have gotten them after Andrei, but that's a big jump. He didn't know their names, and the description he gave, while accurate, only worked when confirming suspicions. But even if they find them, any traces of Paige can be explained away by the fact that she's their daughter, and it's perfectly reasonable to assume that stray hairs, stray fingerprints and such are normal in a family setting. Also, that Paige might not know what the houses were for, why she was there, any of that. If she doesn't admit to working with her parents, there's not a lot to connect her to their work.

On the second side, though, you're assigning the FBI an vindictive streak I don't think they'd have. The illegals they were after have been stopped, but they are also GONE. Nothing about this makes them look good at all, and I think they'd just as soon have it go away as pursue it. So if they get vicious towards Paige and Henry, it will just accentuate that a KGB operative lived across the street from a counter-intelligence officer for seven years, had dinners with both he and his supervisor, things like that. I think you might be right about the punitive nature of bureaucracy, but even they have people to answer to, and those people would much rather this disappear than be brought into the sun. I'm sure they'd debrief the kids, but in reality, Henry doesn't know anything and if Paige told them the things she did know -- with an offer of immunity, which any lawyer would ask for and the FBI would give -- it would all be water under the bridge.

Likewise, now that the Jennings are gone, Oleg's got no reason not to decode the message, and if said message turns out to be about internal Soviet affairs, then he's not working against US interests, is he? I mean, I could see the FBI shooting him before I could see the DOJ convicting him. 

Aderholt specifically said the pattern was being found across the country. They just started looking in D.C.. if it is your belief that it would be a remotely credible claim that KGB illegals would bring their unknowing 20 year old children to properties used for KGB operations, o.k.. I differ. It may not be enough in and of itself to charge someone with being involved in espionage, but it goes a good way towards building a circumstantial case.

With regard to other matters, once the corpses get stacked high enough, as they have been here, there's no making anything disappear. There's only collecting scalps in response.

We aren't going to agree. That's ok.

[Bannon]

15 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Was Paige considered an official spy? Her activities were so limited in scope.

Driving assassin mommy to a warehouse, so she can whack everybody in the building, is not so limited in scope.

[J-Man]

10 hours ago, hellmouse said:

I think one thing both Philip and Elizabeth had going for them is that they were very calm. Neither one betrayed any hesitation or concern. I think the agents are looking for behavioral tics in addition to physical resemblance. Philip looked older and even kind of puffier in the face (maybe he had a lot of salt on his fries at McD's) and Elizabeth held herself differently somehow; the angle of her head and something about the expression in her eyes made her seem different. 

Honestly, I thought Paige was the one who'd be in trouble. She looked guilty most of the time anyway! Maybe part of her thinking was that 1) she really didn't want to go to Russia; 2) she was imagining that Henry would react to being alone the same way she would; and 3) if she was captured on the train it would increase the chance that her parents would be captured too. 

I'm unclear about one thing with respect to the train scenes: We never saw any interaction between the Border Patrol officers and Paige. Do we know whether or not she got off the train before they reached her? Like others have mentioned, I expected to see her on the platform in custody, mostly because she's' such a ninny that she got "made" by the officers. But ... we saw them comparing Philip and Elizabeth's IDs to the FBI-issued "Wanted" flyers -- but was there one for Paige? Obviously she wasn't identified by Father Andrei, and Stan was the only one who knew of her involvement (and of course never told anyone at the office about it.) So the only way they might have had a photo of Paige to use (assuming they were even actively looking for her) would be if they found one at the house or the travel agency, and that probably didn't happen in time.

Quote

If I was Philip, the single most important thing I could have told Henry during the last conversation was that the FBI would likely come to question him and it would be of the utmost importance that he should never answer any of their questions without a lawyer present. I would have been prepared with the name of a good lawyer who was capable of standing up to the FBI and I would have made sure Henry knew it was extremely stupid for anyone to ever tell the FBI anything beyond their name, address and date of birth without their lawyer present.

How could Philip have said ANY of this without raising all kinds of red flags with Henry? It was just supposed to be a casual phone conversation.

Quote

If Paige is still in college, she can get a work/study position or something like that. If not, she could get a minimum-wage job somewhere. 

We know that Stan has connections and could have her in a Roy Rogers uniform in no time.

[dubbel zout]

19 minutes ago, scartact said:

the only thing Philip can do is sit by her in shock

It shows how utterly destroyed he was that he broke cover and went to sit with Elizabeth. He knew she needed him, and he definitely needed her at that moment.

7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

25 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Was Paige considered an official spy? Her activities were so limited in scope.

Driving assassin mommy to a warehouse, so she can whack everybody in the building, is not so limited in scope.

It wasn't her mission, though. She was never in charge, and the spy stuff we saw her do seemed pretty basic: tailing marks, surveilling, driving. I'm curious when she would have been "promoted," as it were, to someone who is given her own missions.

[hellmouse]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

2 hours ago, hellmouse said:

But it's really hard for me to imagine them calling each other Nadia and Mischa, or Nadezhda and Mikhail, when they're at home alone. 

Because they aren't Nadia and Mischa, or Nadezhda and Mikhail, when theyre at home alone. They're Philip and Elizabeth. They have to be in order to maintain their covers. It's too important for them not to.

I agree regarding their past 22 years in the US. They had to maintain their cover.

But looking ahead to their future in Russia, I am assuming they will no longer be posing as Americans. I don't see why they'd have to hide their identities, but if they do, they'd certainly stand out more as Philip and Elizabeth Jennings than they would if they went by Russian names. And if they're going with Russian names, why not use their own. Even if they introduce themselves to others as Nadezhda and Mikhail, I think it will be harder for them to call each other by those names, at least at first. 

[hellmouse]

19 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Driving assassin mommy to a warehouse, so she can whack everybody in the building, is not so limited in scope.

First of all, Paige is a horrible liar. So she isn't going to be able to convince anyone that she didn't know what was going on. She was excited to know what was going on! I could see with the warehouse situation that she could say she didn't know anything except that she was supposed to sit in the car and leave after a given signal. But she literally ran up to witness her mother covered in the blood and brain matter of the  general who "committed suicide" in the woods. That would be hard to explain. The FBI will be even more dismissive than Philip if Paige says "sometimes bad things happen in the world so he killed himself."

Maybe she will come across as having been brainwashed. Like she is this misguided youth who first fell into Christianity and then fell into communism and spying and was not strong enough to withstand the "songs and food and cute boys". But even if the others believe she's been brainwashed, she herself would reject that definition of herself. 

She's in a lot of trouble. 

[dubbel zout]

13 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

But looking ahead to their future in Russia, I am assuming they will no longer be posing as Americans.

Ah, I misread. I wonder if they feel more like Philip and Elizabeth or Nadia/Nadezhda and Mischa/Mikhail. I don't think they'll be able to shake the American part as easily as Elizabeth, especially, thinks they will. Twenty-two years is a long habit to break.

[Erin9]

@dubbel zout I thought it was decently set up that Paige might stay. Paige never seemed receptive to going to Russia. I can’t remember the episode, but Paige freaked about the idea of going when it was broached as a possibility. And she was no more receptive in the finale. She might have spied a bit for the Soviet Union, but it wasn’t home. Which was made abundantly clear this season, despite all the lessons. 

Philip and Elizabeth knew it too. Whenever they talked about bringing the kids home, I think they both always knew that taking them would be bad for them. Even if sometimes they told themselves it was okay. They knew they had 2 American kids. 

If Paige hadn’t known the truth and started spying, making her much more vulnerable to the FBI, they probably would have made the same call they made with Henry. As awful as it would have been. Because deep down they knew. 

For a girl that feared loneliness, I also don’t think she wanted to leave Henry without any family. She kept talking about him. That was a deciding factor too. That also made her decision less shocking. 

Furthermore, Paige joined a church knowing her parents would hate it. She was always capable of making her own choices. It’s what Philip told her to do a long time ago. Be herself. So she did. 

That being said- I didn’t sense bitterness towards her parents. She’d accepted the reality that their lives were far darker than they’d let on, and didn’t like it. Didn’t like being lied to either. But at the end of the day- they were her parents regardless. She loves them, though I’m sure she has complicated  feelings about them. I think one reason she chose Claudia’s place was to feel close to her mom. And think, probably, about what to do next. 

Edited June 1, 2018 by Erin9

[Razzberry]

Admittedly my expectations for the finale were pretty low, so I wasn't disappointed. However, the garage scene with Stan acting like a drama queen who just got dumped was hard to swallow.   At first I thought he'd lost his damn mind.   The people he thought of as friends, weren't, moreover, they were responsible for incalculable damage to the country and many murders.   And yet, he lets them skate.  Really?  Sorry,  but I never thought they were that close anyway.  Neighbors stop by all the time, but they're neighbors, not necessarily good friends.  This didn't work for me, despite their declarations of "You were my best friend."

[Clanstarling]

23 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I buy Stan letting them leave. It was too personal for him. And I think he wanted to give them a chance to warn Moscow about the coup. So- now he’s left to wonder about Renee. No resolution there. Interesting choice. 

That was an amazing scene- mostly between him and Philip. Philip admitted they’d been best friends. Reminded him that Stan moved in next to him- not the other way around. That he’d burned out like Stan. Loved how he and Elizabeth both emphasized the urgency in their message getting to Moscow. Reminded Stan that they loved their country too. 

I think Philip told Stan about his suspicions about Renee out of genuine concern.

I liked the scene too. I loved that Philip said Stan had really been his only friend - which from the glimpses we've seen of his life (too few, too few), seemed genuine to me. He may well have been handling Stan to some extent, but I think the bulk of what he said regarding emotions and feelings was absolutely true. After all, that's what EST did for him, right? Let him get in touch with his feelings? (though the reference was a little jarring - it made some sense given that Stan was how Philip got introduced to it in the first place).

23 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I did also love Philip's line about how all those years they finally get something really important to help their country and after all the years of being terrified of Americans...it's fucking Russians.

Struck me too.

21 hours ago, anonymiss said:

That makes perfect sense, especially when she tries to recover with something like, "Maybe we would have met...like on a train...."

The most romantic thing I've ever heard Elizabeth say. For some reason it reminded me of Doctor Zhivago - there was a meeting on a train, but I think it might have been his daughter (unbeknownst to her).

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The EST comment did strike me as odd, but not funny.  I think it was in there because it was through EST that Philip was finally able to allow his true self to be recognized, which ultimately resulted in him quitting the KGB.  He fought for his country and for the WORLD when Oleg explained how much was at stake though.  That was Philip operating from his "true self" which EST helped him find.

The rest of the scene though?  Just stunning to me, especially Noah's acting.  He said multitudes with his face and body, just outstanding work.

I agree.

12 hours ago, JennyMominFL said:

I'm working my way through the last couple of pages. I woke to 5 pages of new posts :)

I came to the forum with 15 pages - 16 by the time I'm posting this. Whew! (I'd guessed 11 - boy was I wrong).

7 hours ago, RedHawk said:

When we saw Stan talking to Henry at his school, Henry is in his hockey uniform, and the camera pans around to show him from behind with the name JENNINGS on the back. Henry is learning that Jennings is not even his family name.

That shot struck me as well.

5 hours ago, AMDG said:

Are Paige and Henry the Americans that are referred to in the title.

I expected them at the end when talking about Henry and Paige to say ...The Americans. Yes, I think perhaps they are (or are at least one level of the meaning)

I teared up during two scenes - when Elizabeth and Philip talked to Henry (may have done more than teared up), and when Adherholt laid his hand on Stan's shoulder - it seemed such a kind gesture.

I was a little frustrated with the finale, because I did want a little more information - like the fates of our comrades we've been watching. But I liked what someone said much earlier - it was a very Russian ending.

[MJ Frog]

3 hours ago, Bannon said:

Anyways, I can't say for sure that there would be enough physical evidence to tie Paige to KGB operations for charges to be brought, but to assume there wouldn't be seems a stretch as well.

Which is the only thing we are actually in disagreement about on the subject of Paige's future regarding the FBI and the DOJ: the sufficiency or insufficiency of evidence to bring charges, absent any testimony from her. I am content to leave it there.

[Cardie]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

LOL! Sorry, now I'm imagining the In Memoriam... montage at the Oscars.

There's already an Americans In Memoriam montage up on YouTube; I accessed it through vulture.com.

One other factor in Stan letting the Jennings go, I think, was that they made it clear they would never surrender themselves. They would not get down on the ground. He was going to have to shoot them. With all the other playing on his emotions Philip was doing, killing his best friend was absolutely a bridge too far.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Cardie

[Dev F]

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

For a girl that feared loneliness, I also don’t think she wanted to leave Henry without any family. She kept talking about him. That was a deciding factor too. That also made her decision less shocking.

I definitely think that was a big part of her decision. It's also what made that decision so significant: she chose to defy her parents and embrace her worst fear instead of being the compliant follower she usually is.

It seems to me that one of the main reason Paige is such a follower is because she's so desperate to normalize all the shitty things in her life, to convince herself that what she's going through is just the regular stuff that everyone goes through. She joins a church group because a girl she met on a bus tells her that's what kids with screwed-up families do. She gloms on to Pastor Tim and Alice because they strike her as the attentive, socially responsible family she wants her parents to be. Even when she embraces her parents' profession, it's because she imagines it as this incongruously domestic institution where she'll find herself a nice husband just like her mom did.

And this is where I go back to what I've been harping on for most of the season, how Claudia has been trying to show Paige that the life of a true Russian patriot is full of suffering and loneliness, and that's what makes it noble and good. I've dwelled a lot on the fact that Elizabeth has stood in the way of Claudia's lessons by obfuscating the shady and unpleasant parts of their work (see the honeypot conversation). But I realize now that Paige herself is enabling that obfuscation -- because, yes, she wants to know the truth that Elizabeth is hiding from her, but yet again she wants that truth to be something not uncomfortably far from normal. She wants Elizabeth to admit that honeypotting is a thing . . . but she wants it to be a thing where she sleeps with a nice congressional intern she likes and also she gets information from him in some harmless way.

What happens in the finale, I think, is that Paige finally accepts that none of this is ever going to be normal. What's the one thing Elizabeth tells her about talking to Henry on the phone? "You have to act completely normal on the phone. Like nothing's happening." And she can't do it. Nor can she keep following her parents around, as if fleeing to a whole new country on a stolen passport could ever be just a thing a girl from a screwed-up family does. So she goes back to drink vodka alone in Claudia's safe house as Tchaikovsky plays, the music of a "life full of loneliness." She's finally embraced Claudia's lessons; she's no longer deluding herself that she'll have the not-far-from-ordinary life Elizabeth kept insisting she would.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Dev F
Corrected which parent ordered Paige to "act completely normal" on the phone; it's fitting that it was "She won't have to be like us" Elizabeth.

[jjj]

About the phone call preparation:  Philip and Elizabeth telling Paige, "you have to sound normal, and you can't let him think anything is wrong."  Then Philip gets on the phone: "I love you son, and we are all so very, very proud of you, we need to be sure you know that."  Henry, "You drunk?"  Good job sounding normal, Philip. 

[Bannon]

59 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

Admittedly my expectations for the finale were pretty low, so I wasn't disappointed. However, the garage scene with Stan acting like a drama queen who just got dumped was hard to swallow.   At first I thought he'd lost his damn mind.   The people he thought of as friends, weren't, moreover, they were responsible for incalculable damage to the country and many murders.   And yet, he lets them skate.  Really?  Sorry,  but I never thought they were that close anyway.  Neighbors stop by all the time, but they're neighbors, not necessarily good friends.  This didn't work for me, despite their declarations of "You were my best friend."

I'm always fascinated when reactions to an important scene are so wildly divergent. 

[Penman61]

Just finished second viewing.  Random thoughts:

• Loved it more this time.  So melancholy and such painful, genuine loss without violence and death.  Such long silences, long takes, the pacing of loss.
• Many have said before, but one last time:  Holly Taylor is not on the same acting planet as Keri and Matthew, and this episode REALLY showed it because you had apples-to-apples comparisons:  P & E realize that Henry can't come (in the warehouse), and then Paige (in her apt.) realizes Henry can't come: former is nearly wordlessly full of emotion, realization, regret...and the latter is That Bland Exasperation Expression and Tone of Voice.  And just think what a skilled actress could have done with Paige's train platform scene!  You're abandoning your parents, yet you're realizing you own identity, you're helping save your brother, you're betraying your "country," but are you really?...and there's nothing...nothing in her face.  Cut back to her parents...and their faces are novels.  It really, really stuck out this time.  Sorry, Holly.  

[ThisIsMe]

I thought the series finale was excellent.  Instead of trying to tie up the loose ends of the peripheral characters or plot lines, the show focused on the Jennings and Stan ... because the family dynamics, the agony of their "double life," feelings about duty/loyalty to their country, and the friendship with Stan was really at the heart & soul of this series.

Loved the garage scene.  It was just one of those moments when the script and the actors were transcendent.  I almost felt them in my living room instead of on the TV screen.

This show has always been about nuances -- so it makes sense to me that Stan let them go.  Would that have happened with a real life FBI agent?  Probably not, but if I wanted to watch a documentary about the FBI and Russian spies, I would.  "The Americans" was never about what really happened/happens ... but rather "what if?" ... which is where most of the magic happens in fiction.

[kokapetl]

[kokapetl]

6 hours ago, hellmouse said:

One of the things I've enjoyed about hearing the Russian dialogue is how the names sound different with the addition of the patronymic. I like the way Arkady says Oleg Igorevich - it makes his name sound like Olegigor rather than O-leg. 

Whenever a Russian speaker said Oleg it always sounded like Alec to me. Oleg Baldwinov. 

[numbnut]

Poor Henry. If he's not already scarred for life, he will be when his new surrogate dad murders his new surrogate mom for being a spy.

The finale had good moments but was ultimately a letdown b/c I was really expecting an arrest (and maybe the death of Philip). I don't know anything about the real-life spy couple. Did they both get away?

Edited June 1, 2018 by numbnut

[renatae]

13 hours ago, jjj said:

They would have been extradited from Canada.

I have to wonder why Elizabeth thought she would be having a future in Russia, after killing their deputy officer in DC and confessing to someone who appears to have beat her back to Russia.  I would expect an inquiry, and maybe Nina-justice.  

First someone would have had to ID them for them to have been extradited. If that happened, I missed it.

I agree it's dangerous for her to be in Russia, so I imagine somehow Arkady will help them. They all seem to be in the same boat.

[kokapetl]

4 hours ago, Bannon said:

Driving assassin mommy to a warehouse, so she can whack everybody in the building, is not so limited in scope.

I think Marilyn did the driving for Elizabeth. 

[companionenvy]

My answer on whether Paige winds up in trouble or not is based on essentially the same reasoning as my answer on whether the fall of the USSR is going to mean a family reunion or whether Oleg is getting out of prison any time soon.

If the show had wanted to suggest that Paige was going to wind up in prison, they had any number of ways to do it. Leaving us with a scene of her, after voluntarily getting off the train, sitting alone at an empty safe house drinking vodka, combined with P&E's apparent unconcern with the possibility, is not one of them. Weisberg and Fields, IMO, deliberately selected against the Paige in prison ending, just as they selected for the Oleg in prison ending, and the Jenningses permanently separated ending. As readers/viewers, I think there's only so much liberty we have for going beyond the narrative without slipping into fanfic territory; it is one thing to imagine Oleg getting released in ten years or P&E and the kids having a one-time meeting far in the future, as those things wouldn't substantially affect the tone of the finale. But if we had a sad ending for someone, we don't get to turn it into a slightly delayed happy ending. If this were real life, Oleg getting released in the next few years thanks to influence from a grateful Gorbachev government would be a realistic possibility. But it wouldn't be by any means a sure bet, and the show ending his story as it did argues strongly that that isn't how they see his future.

Similarly, in Paige's case, whether it is in real world terms more or less likely that Paige is going to avoid prosecution than not, it seems possible enough that I'm going to take the scene we're left with as evidence that Paige's future includes a world of loneliness, but not a prison cell. Because it isn't by any means impossible to believe that the FBI might suspect her and gather enough circumstantial evidence to be pretty sure she was involved, but not have enough to actually charge her with. That gives the show enough room to write the ending they wanted to write, which was evidently not Paige behind bars.

[Aulty]

2 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

Whenever a Russian speaker said Oleg it always sounded like Alec to me. Oleg Baldwinov. 

In Russian if the emphasis in a word is on an O it is spoken as an A.