S06.E10: START

[Helena Dax]

I can understand why some people would hate the episode but I LOVED it. The scene in the garage was insane! I couldn't believe it when Stan let them go. Tbh, Philip's balls are made of steel. The way he played Stan was masterful: he told the truth when it suited him -his quitting, Gorbachev, what he really thought of their friendship- and lied when it didn't. And I'm sure someone has already said this, but I think one of the reasons he let them go was Oleg. Because he felt guilty about Oleg and now Philip and Elizabeth happened to be in the same side as Oleg, so I think some part of Stan thought "I can't save you, but I still can save them". That, and the fact that he loved the Jennings, of course.

(Anyway, I agree that Oleg should be fine in a couple of years).

And the comment about Renée? Omg.  I guess Philip`just wanted to warn him, but what a way to destroy the marriage of the man who has just put you and your family above his country!

And I'm not disappointed by the lack of action, meaning fights and stuff. I never thought The Americans was that kind of show. It was about marriage, about them. At the end, they are together, back home again. To me, it was perfect,

Edited May 31, 2018 by Helena Dax
spelling

[SunnyBeBe]

Yes, Henry will have long term ramifications of what happened, but, I still can't see him being better off in Russia, under the circumstances.  First of all, I think that even if they had the time to sit down with Henry, without anyone on their trail and explain it all and allow him time to digest it and to consider the options.....no doubt, imo, that Henry would have chosen to stay in US.  So, whatever happens, is for the best, since he is where he wanted to be. I can't see them forcing him out by gunpoint, so, he would have refused to go, imo.  And, if forced, sneak away, like Paige did. 

4 minutes ago, jjj said:

Two rows behind Elizabeth, in the aisle seat, was someone who looked so much like Erica's husband! 

Yeah, but, wasn't that the guy we were discussing who was listed as the airline guest in Imdb?  The guy is a movie producer in his 40's-50's....it looked like the photo of him online.  The other guest were ignored. 

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Philip wanted to leave Henry behind, because he was doing what was in the best interest for Henry and not for himself.  I have no clue what Elizabeth was thinking.  She certainly wasn't looking out for Henry's best interests. 

Elizabeth wasn't looking out for Paige's best interests either, otherwise she would have known that Paige has an unrealistic view of the world and had no business being involved with the spy stuff at all.

Paige is a smart woman, but she is a follower and not a leader.  I worry for Paige, because she can be led down the wrong path so easily.  She is book smart, not street smart.  

She attends George Washington University, has plans of getting a State Department internship, is ignorant of really fundamental aspects of WWII, and she's book smart? I guess I will disagree.

[hellmouse]

3 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Philip wanted to leave Henry behind, because he was doing what was in the best interest for Henry and not for himself.  I have no clue what Elizabeth was thinking.  She certainly wasn't looking out for Henry's best interests. 

Elizabeth's reaction seemed to me to be entirely instinctive, rooted in her role as their mother. She wants to gather her children and get them to safety, which she believes is with her. It's not logical and she knows it once Philip breaks it down to her. 

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I thought for sure that P & E would head for South America.  It made no sense for them to head back to Russia in that unstable political climate.

I agree. 

[DrumJunkie]

5 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

The line "And you give yourself away" really hit me, because it felt like such a telling line.

I liked the double meaning.  You're exposing yourself and showing your hand, but also giving yourself away to your cause/country/spouse/etc.  Maybe triple meaning by giving away your identity.

[solea]

I rather like how open-ended the finale was. The fates of all the main characters is far from certain. 

Are P and E truly safe? There is still a faction that undoubtedly knows that P&E betrayed them. Will Henry continue at private school and will Stan pay for it? Will Paige go underground (she has a new identity and at least Stan thinks she went with her parents) or will she try to live openly hoping Stan doesn’t betray her?

Will Stan be able to live with his decision to let them go? Will he always doubt Renée? Or will he try to out her?  Is she or isn’t she?

For a show with a lot ambiguity this was a appropriate ending. 

[ChromaKelly]

I really wanted to Paige to know exactly what her parents had been doing. She finally put it together that they sometimes have to have sex with people (OMG!) but she still doesn't know about the murders of innocent people and the true extent of ruining people's lives (Martha, Young Hee, poor suitcase woman who's name I can't remember). 

[kokapetl]

I think Phil and Liz’s skill set would be most effective in the cultures they know the most about, and where they can also speak the language, so the USA and the Soviet Union, and maybe Canada. 

Edited May 31, 2018 by Kokapetl

[Penman61]

Paige and Henry's destinies were fraught from conception(!):  They exist AS COVER FOR SPYING during a Cold War, in the foreign country. 

They NEVER had anything like a real chance to form lasting bonds with their parents who brought them into this world for that reason.  It's to Paige's great credit that she rejected her parents in favor of Henry (and her truer self, of course).  

Edited May 31, 2018 by Penman61

[Ellaria]

I also loved the use of "Brothers in Arms." I'm a huge fan of Dire Straits.

This line, in particular: "We are fools to make war/On our brothers in arms.”

[Sarah 103]

14 hours ago, Dminches said:

Only the viewers know that.  Stan doesn’t.  He cares too much for Henry to lock Paige up without any concrete evidence.

That works for me. He had suspected Philip and Elizabeth for years, but waited for a very long time to actually make a move and tell anyone elese that he thought they might be spies. I can see him doing the same for Paige. 

14 hours ago, kay1864 said:

True...but I doubt there's a single thing they can prove. To them, she knew and just kept quiet about it to protect her parents. If she keeps her mouth shut, there are no witnesses, and they have no proof that she was involved. 

This is true. She can pretend Claudia was an aunt, like aunt Helen, but I'm not sure she can pull it off. 

14 hours ago, Misstify said:

I also would have liked a bit more on what happens to Paige now.  I can't quite believe she doesn't crack immediately under questioning.  

 

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, having Paige around is a serious danger to Stan, unless he persuades the FBI to let him interrogate her.

That loose end bothers me even more than the Renee stuff.

As for Oleg, he'll be in jail for a while, but I can see him eventually traded or released.  He just helped save Gorbachev's life after all.

Both of these theories work for me. I want Oleg to have a happy ending. Paige was the worst part of the finale, because everything was tied up pretty, but that was a major loose end. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I wonder if other Russians would notice the fact their Russian accents have been in storage for awhile.  

[DrumJunkie]

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

It made no sense for them to head back to the Soviet Union in that unstable political climate.

It was still home, warts and all.  They just survived 20 odd years in a country hostile to their ideology, the unstable climate was exactly why they were headed home. They were soldiers. They had to delivery the message to Arkady and had no other way now that their cover was blown.  The mission was over.

Edited May 31, 2018 by DrumJunkie
corrected math

[EtheltoTillie]

5 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

I really wanted to Paige to know exactly what her parents had been doing. She finally put it together that they sometimes have to have sex with people (OMG!) but she still doesn't know about the murders of innocent people and the true extent of ruining people's lives (Martha, Young Hee, poor suitcase woman who's name I can't remember). 

I always found the poor airport shuttle bus driver (killed by Philip) to be one of the saddest victims.

[kokapetl]

27 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

The one big question I am still wondering about is logistical and really has no bearing on the plot, but I do wonder how long it took Philip and Elizabeth to reach the Soviet border. Assuming they departed from Montreal, where did they fly to? Could they fly directly from Canada to an Eastern Bloc country? I feel like that would have been tricky without a visa. Maybe they needed to go somewhere like West Germany and then drive the rest of the way? 

It's almost 1,000 miles from Berlin to Moscow. That's a long drive. Perhaps the border crossing was not in Russia proper but in Belarus or Ukraine.

Presumably they were able to communicate with Arkady once they were in a Soviet state.

I also wonder how far they drove before meeting Arkady. I was a little surprised he didn't have a driver, although maybe he didn't trust anyone else at the moment. It was nice to see him picking them up and shaking their hands. They were incredible spies for the USSR. Think about how many other illegals were killed - Rob, Emmett, Leanne, William, Harvest - and that's just the ones we know about. Not only did Philip and Elizabeth last a long time in the field, with many many operational successes, but they made it out alive. Impressive. 

It was almost like a father picking up his kids who've been away at camp, and they fall asleep in the back seat because they're so exhausted and they feel safe enough to be able to relax. 

 

Finland? More properly known as @suomi ?

Edited May 31, 2018 by Kokapetl

[SunnyBeBe]

11 minutes ago, DrumJunkie said:

I liked the double meaning.  You're exposing yourself and showing your hand, but also giving yourself away to your cause/country/spouse/etc.  Maybe triple meaning by giving away your identity.

Hey DrumJunkie, I recall that you had a very impressive prediction that Stan would seek out P and E to confront them alone without the FBI.  That was quite perceptive and correct! 

[WritinMan]

28 minutes ago, showme said:

Well, you assumed wrong. The kids of the real life Russian spies continued to study in America, and they even got their Canadian citizenship back. By your logic, they should be arrested and their life ruined, that is simply not what happened in real life. In America, you are usually not guilty by association, OK?

Except Paige isn't guilty by association. She's guilty of being a (low-level) Russian spy.

[Dev F]

31 minutes ago, Bannon said:

That's right. Amador was killed in episode 9, and Zhukov episide 11, of season1. It makes no sense that Stan doesn't immediately grasp the likelihood of Phil being Clark, and having killed Amador.

But it's not like Amador's death was a hanging thread for him. Gregory was implicated in the murder via Amador's ring and the (planted) blood evidence. Stan already told Aderholt that he suspected an indirect connection to his partner's death, since he thinks Elizabeth was Gregory's girlfriend, but I don't think "What if it was really Philip instead of Gregory?" was some burning question hanging over him.

And Stan did confront the Jenningses about the unsolved murder that was the most raw and personal for him, the deaths of Sofia and Gennadi. I was totally fine with that being the avenue by which Stan worked through that particular element of the Jenningses' betrayal.

21 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yeah, but, wasn't that the guy we were discussing who was listed as the airline guest in Imdb?  The guy is a movie producer in his 40's-50's....it looked like the photo of him online.  The other guest were ignored. 

Extras aren't listed with any consistency on IMDb. Since they're not in the on-screen credits and they don't usually have agents or publicists to flog their work, I think it's up to each individual extra to submit his/her appearances to the database. I assume some do and others don't bother.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Dev F

[tennisgurl]

6 minutes ago, DrumJunkie said:

I liked the double meaning.  You're exposing yourself and showing your hand, but also giving yourself away to your cause/country/spouse/etc.  Maybe triple meaning by giving away your identity.

I thought that was really poignant, and that line in particular really hit me hard. Philip and Elizabeth, and many other characters, have given so much of themselves (health, happiness, love, safety, life, soul) all to something else, be it your county, an ideology, or the greater good. Its a great way to bring the story to an end. 

I dont think Henry will get in any trouble, as he had no idea that any of this was going on, but Paige would be a more tricky case. She didnt kill anyone or do anything super treasonous (at least, anything that mattered), but she also knew who her parents were and didnt inform the authorities, and she ended up even getting involved in KGB assignments, and was basically a low level spy by this season. But, Paige certainly has the doe eyed innocent idiot thing going on, and if Stan vouched for her, they could probably write her off as a naive moron instead of an active threat, she might not end up in a cell for the rest of her life. But, having a naive idiot with knowledge of KGB operations might not be such a great person to have running around either, so who knows?

I do wonder if Paige will finally see what her parents really got up to, including multiple murders, lives ruined, and sleeping with a LOT of people for the sake of Mother Russia, and will see more of the nasty stuff the USSR has gotten into, beyond her personal low rent Epcot Russia she was getting from Claudia and Elizabeth?

[DrumJunkie]

2 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Hey DrumJunkie, I recall that you had a very impressive prediction that Stan would seek out P and E to confront them alone without the FBI.

One of the few things I did get right, haha.  I also thought they would try to grab Henry and he would put up the fight that Paige did.  I didn't see Paige skipping out on her parents. and a few other missed steps.  I thought Stan would go it alone because of his internal struggle to confirm his suspicions.  With Philip and Elizabeth, there was a conflict between serving ideology or humanity, and I thought Stan would be having those same thoughts and want to be alone when confronting these people who have been a part of his life, yet against his way of life.

[Sarah 103]

14 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

Unless Stan goes after her personally, no one else in the FBI has the remotest idea she's involved and all she knows is her parents went to Canada with wigs and false names, all of which they ditched. 

Stan knows she knew about her parents but not that she was ever involved in spying herself. And if he's protecting Henry out of loyalty to Philip, it's not completely out of the realm of possibility he'll protect Philip's other child. 

This explanation works for me. I just wish they had ended it with Paige meeting Stan someplace, instead of Paige alone in the safe house. 

14 hours ago, Bannon said:

Paige was in KGB cars on several operations. The FBI has a painstaking way of tracking those cars down. They are going to be found, Paiges hair has to be in them, and 1987 was when convictions started to be obtained via DNA matches. They'll match her DNA to hair in her bedroom at home, or her dorm room at college, of course. 

In 1987, how much could they have done? This is based on modern police shows which aren't always accurate, but on a lot of them they talk about old cases or old evidence that relates to a current case there's often a line about "The tests were good enough to make a definitive match them" or "We didn't have a large enough sample to test." 

14 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

But I will be needing a mini series explaining to me how Oleg was bargained out of jail by his government and the US when everyone realized what he was up to, and he made it home to live with his wife and kid and parents and is living a fantastic life from now on. I dont care, I just want it damn it!

14 hours ago, Mrs peel said:

i know there are lots of loose ends, but I doubt they could have settled everything in one episode.  

The show needed another half hour to show Oleg getting out, a more definitive answer to what happens to Paige, and any other loose ends that I'm forgetting about. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Was Paige's roommate EVER in that apartment?

[hellmouse]

6 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Finland? More properly known as @suomi ?

That could work. Helsinki to Moscow is a much shorter drive than Berlin would be. IIRC, Finland was not part of the USSR so they could probably fly from Montreal to Helsinki, then drive to the border. This is now my accepted head-canon!

[dubbel zout]

I liked that there were loose ends. 

[SunnyBeBe]

2 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

That could work. Helsinki to Moscow is a much shorter drive than Berlin would be. IIRC, Finland was not part of the USSR so they could probably fly from Montreal to Helsinki, then drive to the border. This is now my accepted head-canon!

Okay.  I'll go with that. 

And, so P and E drove for most of the night until morning, then got into the car with Arkady in the early morn...drove all day and then at night stopped to see the view?  

Edited May 31, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[DrumJunkie]

1 minute ago, hellmouse said:

That could work. Helsinki to Moscow is a much shorter drive than Berlin would be. IIRC, Finland was not part of the USSR so they could probably fly from Montreal to Helsinki, then drive to the border.

They were also driving a Volvo that would suggest a Scandinavian country (though not a definitive proof).  I think it works for me too,

[Sarah 103]

13 hours ago, Erin9 said:

 And I think he identified with them a bit- as fellow patriots. 

I like this. Game recognizes Game. However, then why didn't Stan do something to help Oleg? It would have been nice if we could at least see him try. I always that Stan and Oleg had some level of trust. 

13 hours ago, KBrownie said:

 There was absolutely no build up, and there was the opportunity to do so, to any sort of meaningful bond or relationship between Paige and Henry. 

One of my biggest regrets about this series is that there was never a scene of Henry and Paige alone after she found out thier parents were spies. I would have loved to have seen another moment of them alone and to be able to compare what thier relationship was like before the reveal (the hitchhiker scene) to what it was like after. 

[Sarah 103]

13 hours ago, Steph J said:

My assumption is that after she sobers up, she calls Stan and he helps her broker a deal to tell what she knows in exchange for immunity from prosecution.  There's an argument to be made that Paige was just a kid when she was brought into the spy game and that she was indoctrinated by the two people who had the most power to shape her moral compass.  That's not exactly how it happened, but I don't think it would be too hard to spin a story that casts her as a victim.

But if that's not her plan, then I have no earthly idea why she would go back to DC.

I wish we could have seen this. I love the idea and it would have been a much better ending than the one we actually got for Paige. 

13 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Right.  She had just discovered that Claudia had lied to her mom and that there was coup staged that attempted to ruin their country....so why go to Claudia's....maybe to seek an explanation or to tell her off. 

Going to Claudia's to tell her off would have been the ultimate like mother-like daughter moment. 

[Ina123]

After putting more thought into it I went back and refreshed my memory on the spy ring known as the Cambridge Five. Kim Philby was revealed to be a member of the spy ring. He is considered the most sucessful spy of the Cold War. Working for British intelligence he was so prolific in supplying the Soviets with British and US secrets that Stalin feared he was a triple agent providing Soviet intelligence to British authorities.

Reading the secrets that Philby gave to the Soviets will make your hair curl and your heart sick. He did it all by being patient and a real charmer. Everyone fell for him as a friend. One friend in particular was Nicholas Elliott, an MI6 officer. After reading about their friendship I liken it to Stan and Philip, even stronger. When Philby was first accused, Elliot staked his career on Philby's innocence only to be embarassed, like Stan, when the truth came out.

The first time they suspected him he got out of it but became persona no grata because of the suspicion. When it finally was discovered to be true, they sent his dear friend Elliot to try to get a confession. He did eventually confess but later denied that he confessed. (It's a long story).

Now to my point. The FBI, CIA and MI5 and MI6 were under serious scutiny when he was discovered. They had been through some very embarassing episodes. No one wanted the Philby scene to be exposed. After a few days of interrogation and, believe it or not, allowing him to return home each night, his KGB handlers whisked him away to Moscow. There's no doubt about it, he was allowed to run. No one wanted a public trial.

The first few years he was on virtual house arrest in Moscow because they thought he might try to return to England, but later he was free to do as he pleased. He even eventually gave lectures to East German and Soviet intelligence officers. Philby claimed publicly in January 1988 that he did not regret his decisions and that he missed nothing about England except some "friends, Colman's Mustard, and Lea & Perrins Worcestershire Sauce".

Philby died of heart failure in Moscow in 1988. He was given a hero's funeral, and posthumously awarded numerous medals by the USSR.

So, while I despise Stan for letting them go (just as I hate that Philby was let go), it is not unprecedented.

If you like reading about real spies, Kim Philby and the Cambridge Five will keep you busy reading for a long time.

[Chaos Theory]

16 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I liked that there were loose ends. 

Life is full of them.  If the show had answered all the questions it would have felt too tied up.   We can all make assertions based on history and our own beliefs on what Paige’s next move will be.   If Stan will be able to protect Henry...and his own career.   If Oleg will spend the rest of his life in jail.  If Renee is a spy or just someone who really wants to work for the FBI?

i kinda dig it.

[SunnyBeBe]

Was that a pre-dug hole or did Elizabeth throw a shovel into that go-away bag? 

[Erin9]

1 hour ago, jjj said:

They would have been extradited from Canada.

I have to wonder why Elizabeth thought she would be having a future in Russia, after killing their deputy officer in DC and confessing to someone who appears to have beat her back to Russia.  I would expect an inquiry, and maybe Nina-justice.  

 

I would think she and Philip would get protection via Arkady and Gorbachev. They were stopping the coup attempt. 

They should do well employment wise too. They are both very smart, adaptable, with a varied skill set. They sure know plenty about the West too. Lots of options imo. 

Edited May 31, 2018 by Erin9

[Sarah 103]

12 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

The burning question is: Will Phillip be reunited with Mischa now that he's back in Russia? Because something needs to justify that entire go-nowhere subplot from last season.

 

12 hours ago, showme said:

Since they decided that this is the series finale. I wish they could do a 2 hour feature movie to tie up all the loose ends and give us a sneak peak of everyone's life after the finale.

Stuff like this is why we should have had a two hour finale, because both of those aspects (Philip and Mischa) and a sneak peak of everyone's life woupld have been possible with just another 30 minutes (give or take commercial time).

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

If she's smart, she'll call Stan and talk it out, and I think Stan will advise her to come in voluntarily and tell all she knows.  She'll probably be able to cut a deal, especially if she leaves out the part about being there when the General died.  It's actually true that she was coerced by her mother when she was only 16, and whatever information she gives the FBI, about Claudia for example, the safe house, will probably be enough for some sort of probation instead of jail.  Stan will probably work to make that happen, for Henry, for Paige, and probably for his best friend, Philip.

I like this idea. I wish we could have seen it on screen. It is a much better ending than what we actually saw. 

[terrymct]

The only thing Paige can really do is to step right into the middle of things.  Either go back to her apartment and get picked up by the FBI, or go to Stan's and turn herself in.   Insist that she knew about her parents but didn't do anything with them (claim they shielded her) or about them (out of family loyalty or fear).   Get through that, then try to live life in contact with Henry.

[Bannon]

3 hours ago, DrumJunkie said:

Watched the show twice last night and finally getting caught up from the 9! pages on this thread.  I tried to get involved with the live chat, but I can't multitask like that.  I really really REALLY liked the finale.  It didn't go how I thought it would, but was believable to me.  The way they left certain threads loose and tied up the important ones was masterful in telling the story and also ensuring that there will be discussion and thought down the road.  The entire cast did some heavy lifting to close out the show.  Easily one of the best shows on TV.  It will be missed.

Before I wade into the conversation(s), I will preface that I have generally tried to see why/how an action or scene is plausible instead of trying to prove why it couldn't happen.  Life is messy and people rarely behave predictably or logically.  It is so much easier to find plausabilities than it is to nitpick and prove that something couldn't happen.

What I ask for most of all is characters that behave in a way that makes sense, for who that character is supposed to be. My major issues with this episode are twofold, one longstanding, the other fairly unusual. The longstanding one is Stan's emotional and intellectual incoherence. I've always had a problem with Stan's writing, and I guess it is no surprise it didn't change in the last episode.

The other issue I had was Liz and Phil being so sanguine about the situation their children are facing. The idea that Liz especially would have confidence that Henry wouldn't get rough treatment, because he is ignorant and innocent, seems incredible. Surely Liz is aware that the FBI pretty commonly goes hard after innocent people, as a means to an end, but all of a sudden she is going to become naive about it? That's before we get to Paige.

I don't know why the writers did this, other than they didn't wish to make the ending too dark, for those that wanted Liz and Phil to ecsape.

[Bannon]

18 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

After putting more thought into it I went back and refreshed my memory on the spy ring known as the Cambridge Five. Kim Philby was revealed to be a member of the spy ring. He is considered the most sucessful spy of the Cold War. Working for British intelligence he was so prolific in supplying the Soviets with British and US secrets that Stalin feared he was a triple agent providing Soviet intelligence to British authorities.

Reading the secrets that Philby gave to the Soviets will make your hair curl and your heart sick. He did it all by being patient and a real charmer. Everyone fell for him as a friend. One friend in particular was Nicholas Elliott, an MI6 officer. After reading about their friendship I liken it to Stan and Philip, even stronger. When Philby was first accused, Elliot staked his career on Philby's innocence only to be embarassed, like Stan, when the truth came out.

The first time they suspected him he got out of it but became persona no grata because of the suspicion. When it finally was discovered to be true, they sent his dear friend Elliot to try to get a confession. He did eventually confess but later denied that he confessed. (It's a long story).

Now to my point. The FBI, CIA and MI5 and MI6 were under serious scutiny when he was discovered. They had been through some very embarassing episodes. No one wanted the Philby scene to be exposed. After a few days of interrogation and, believe it or not, allowing him to return home each night, his KGB handlers whisked him away to Moscow. There's no doubt about it, he was allowed to run. No one wanted a public trial.

The first few years he was on virtual house arrest in Moscow because they thought he might try to return to England, but later he was free to do as he pleased. He even eventually gave lectures to East German and Soviet intelligence officers. Philby claimed publicly in January 1988 that he did not regret his decisions and that he missed nothing about England except some "friends, Colman's Mustard, and Lea & Perrins Worcestershire Sauce".

Philby died of heart failure in Moscow in 1988. He was given a hero's funeral, and posthumously awarded numerous medals by the USSR.

So, while I despise Stan for letting them go (just as I hate that Philby was let go), it is not unprecedented.

If you like reading about real spies, Kim Philby and the Cambridge Five will keep you busy reading for a long time.

Kim Philby didn't personally murder wholly innocent British subjects in large numbers. This gets to the problem of having Liz and Phil murder so many people. It would have been a better show without that level of violence.

[tennisgurl]

I’m still just a teeny bit salty we never saw Elizabeth’s reaction to the fall of the Berlin and the celebrations surrounding it. Complete with David Hasslehoff soundtrack. Just a teeny bit. 

[Sarah 103]

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Paige could cut a deal, and Stan could probably help her with that.  She has information they want, she can identify Marilyn for one thing, and Claudia, and the safe house, the garage, the procedures, trade craft, how often they switch out cars, etc.  The FBI still wants to catch other embedded spies.

It's also a pretty good argument that Paige was coerced at a young age. 

It depends on the press really, if Henry and Paige become famous for having spy parents?  Neither is likely to have a very good life.  Since their parents weren't caught, and the FBI is looking to round up other spies?  There may be no press on this case, especially if Paige agrees to cooperate with the FBI. 

I could see this happening, and wished we had.

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

My two biggest gripes about the show are:

1. Season five.
2. Not getting the complete Philip backstory!  What the hell?  We watched wheat grow, but never found out what happened to him in the Gulag, or even how he was chosen from a Gulag life to become KGB, which at the time was the best possible job for any peasant in the USSR.  !!!!

I agree with both of these. Philip's father was guard in the Gulag. Philip came from pretty much rock bottom, while it seemed like Elizabeth's early life was hard, Philip had it worse. It seems Elizabeth was slighlty better off, but I could be wrong because they never gave us enough backstory on Philip. 

[benteen]

Quote

My assumption is that after she sobers up, she calls Stan and he helps her broker a deal to tell what she knows in exchange for immunity from prosecution.  There's an argument to be made that Paige was just a kid when she was brought into the spy game and that she was indoctrinated by the two people who had the most power to shape her moral compass.  That's not exactly how it happened, but I don't think it would be too hard to spin a story that casts her as a victim.

But if that's not her plan, then I have no earthly idea why she would go back to DC.

It's not a bad idea though Paige has nothing to trade with.  She knows that her mom worked with a B team but they are likely gone and Paige doesn't know their names or where to find them.  Her only chance is to plead ignorance/say she was coerced and hope that Stan and maybe Aderholt will be able to protect her.

[SunnyBeBe]

I do think the ending of P and E standing together, in a rather romantic setting with hope in their hearts, is somewhat idyllic, and I suspect that there are multiple reasons for it.  I don't really buy that it was a natural outcome based on what the showrunners had in mind long ago.  I just don't.  To me, although, I'm not opposed to it, it might be a little thank you to the fans, because so many loved Philip.  Kill him and they would likely have gotten a lot of angry stuff.   I would predict anger, disgust and some pretty unhappy people.  So, regardless, of the real reason, to me it was a bit contrived. But, I accept it. 

[hellmouse]

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The other issue I had was Liz and Phil being so sanguine about the situation their children are facing. The idea that Liz especially would have confidence that Henry wouldn't get rough treatment, because he is ignorant and innocent, seems incredible. Surely Liz is aware that the FBI pretty commonly goes hard after innocent people, as a means to an end, but all of a sudden she is going to become naive about it? That's before we get to Paige.

I saw that as them choosing to believe something in order to survive. I don't think they're sanguine, and I think it will be an issue they return to for the rest of their lives. But right now, still in shock at having to leave their children, but facing the reality that they cannot change it, they need to decide that their children will be okay. Otherwise, they cannot move forward. So they do some rationalization. Logically, Paige and Henry are young, but they are not children of ten and thirteen as they were in the pilot. Henry has shown independence and self-sufficiency, and they hope that Stan will be in his life in some way. Paige... it's hard to know what they imagine will happen with her. But she is an adult and they would have to allow her to make her own decisions (no matter how bad) as an adult anyway.  

I think they'll have this debate in their heads for the rest of their lives. 

[scowl]

Stan went from scolding them about how many agents had been killed in the past one to five years... to letting the murderers walk away.

I would have been less surprised if Elizabeth had walked up to Stan, taken his gun, and shot him in the head. At least that would have made sense.

[Sarah 103]

6 hours ago, JFParnell said:

My dream ending of Philip and Oleg opening a bar in South America shall not come to pass.

OMG! This would have been the perfect setting for my hypothetical spin-off. Philip, Oleg, Stan and Henry fight crime/help people who can't go to the authorities. Thier base of operations could have been a bar in South America. It's where people go to meet them and hire them. 

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

I saw that as them choosing to believe something in order to survive. I don't think they're sanguine, and I think it will be an issue they return to for the rest of their lives. But right now, still in shock at having to leave their children, but facing the reality that they cannot change it, they need to decide that their children will be okay. Otherwise, they cannot move forward. So they do some rationalization. Logically, Paige and Henry are young, but they are not children of ten and thirteen as they were in the pilot. Henry has shown independence and self-sufficiency, and they hope that Stan will be in his life in some way. Paige... it's hard to know what they imagine will happen with her. But she is an adult and they would have to allow her to make her own decisions (no matter how bad) as an adult anyway.  

I think they'll have this debate in their heads for the rest of their lives. 

I wish the writing had shown more of that debate and anguish, instead of the bland benign rationalizattion, if that is what it was.

[DrumJunkie]

17 minutes ago, Bannon said:

What I ask for most of all is characters that behave in a way that makes sense, for who that character is supposed to be. My major issues with this episode are twofold, one longstanding, the other fairly unusual. The longstanding one is Stan's emotional and intellectual incoherence. I've always had a problem with Stan's writing, and I guess it is no surprise it didn't change in the last episode.

I don't know what to tell you on this point.  It made sense to me.  Many of the show reviews over the years have been enlightening on the thought process of the characters and their struggles and motivations.  You never seem to address those things in your critiques.

 

20 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The other issue I had was Liz and Phil being so sanguine about the situation their children are facing. The idea that Liz especially would have confidence that Henry wouldn't get rough treatment, because he is ignorant and innocent, seems incredible. Surely Liz is aware that the FBI pretty commonly goes hard after innocent people, as a means to an end, but all of a sudden she is going to become naive about it? That's before we get to Paige.

I took their upbeat comment at the end about their children's future to be them comforting themselves and giving themselves false hope.  After years of lying, they even lie to themselves, which is what Elizabeth did about Paige in order to form a bond with her and to convince herself that she's doing the right thing even though she wasn't.  Liz didn't think that Henry was going to get it easy.  She told Philip in the first scene that Henry would get torn apart.  It seems that maybe The Americans wasn't the show for you with all the things you hate about it.

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, scowl said:

Stan went from scolding them about how many agents had been killed in the past one to five years... to letting the murderers walk away.

I would have been less surprised if Elizabeth had walked up to Stan, taken his gun, and shot him in the head. At least that would have made sense.

Hey, Phil told him they were doing a job, and that if Stan had not quit est ( again, a line that nearly made me laugh out loud), he'd understand better! It's all good! What was that Amador guy's first name, anyhow, and he was kind of annoying, anyway! Safe journey to The Motherland, ya' ol' Russkie knuckleheads! Try not to slaughter anybody!

[scowl]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Hey, Phil told him they were doing a job, and that if Stan had not quit est ( again, a line that nearly made me laugh out loud), he'd understand better! It's all good! 

I think ever since Breaking Bad they have to let anti-heroes get away in the end or the viewers will be disappointed. Go to jail for all those crimes? No way, man!

[Mrs peel]

6 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

All I can figure is that Stan was not computing the body count in his mind as he stood there.  His best friend is denying killing people and Paige doesn't think they do either. She's still in the dark, and E is pouring it on about how they are supporting the good guys.  So, it's a stretch, I admit it.  I recall how over in the prediction thread and wish list, I said I wondered if Stan would LET THEM GO and it wasn't a very popular theory. lol  Oh well.  

How did Claudia clean out her apt so fast?  I mean, it was only a day after she is shown eating her soup with plans to leave, right?  It looked like most everything was taken, save the vodka. 

I don’t think that was claudia’s Apt, but a safe house.  It was pretty sparse every time the 3were there.

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, DrumJunkie said:

I don't know what to tell you on this point.  It made sense to me.  Many of the show reviews over the years have been enlightening on the thought process of the characters and their struggles and motivations.  You never seem to address those things in your critiques.

 

I took their upbeat comment at the end about their children's future to be them comforting themselves and giving themselves false hope.  After years of lying, they even lie to themselves, which is what Elizabeth did about Paige in order to form a bond with her and to convince herself that she's doing the right thing even though she wasn't.  Liz didn't think that Henry was going to get it easy.  She told Philip in the first scene that Henry would get torn apart.  It seems that maybe The Americans wasn't the show for you with all the things you hate about it.

I have consistently extravagantly praised the show's acting for years, and have stated the Martha arc was among the best I've ever seen in any show. It appears that you think I should only watch those shows that I think are absent large problems, or that if there are reviews that differ from my view of a show, it means my views are less valid.

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, and I would never tell anybody that somebody should not like what they like.