S06.E10: START

[rehoboth]

7 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Probably.  Stan can't play it any other way than he played it with Henry even though he knows Paige knows the truth.  But she also know she let them go.

I do think there were things to show there.  At the same time, it could have also felt hard to find an ending after this.

Yes.  But they don't have anything on her.  Without the sketches, they barely have anything on Philip and Elizabeth.

But yes, I still want some answers we'll never get.

But I think they are going to get more on P and E.  The FBI was going over their house with a fine-toothed comb getting the families' fingerprints and other samples.  I wouldn't be surprised if there some matches with prints found from crime scenes of the couples two decades long murder spree.  Especially the last few murders from a rushed, overly tired Elizabeth.

I see Paige as going to Stan for help in setting up her new life (like selling their old house) and for him to extract information from her like where the safe house was and how P and E were "handled".  I also hope that Stan sets Paige straight on how P and E actually operated.

[companionenvy]

14 minutes ago, anonymiss said:

Maybe Stan didn't need to believe what Philip was selling; he just needed to not be able to shoot them, especially not in front of their child (whom he's known since she actually was a child). Philip rightly called his bluff. It kind of recalls how, much to his surprise, Stan called Oleg's bluff correctly and was allowed to walk away.

There still would seem to be a middle ground, both for Stan and for the show, between Stan not being able to shoot them and for Stan just letting them drive away and keeping his mouth shut. Stan could have hesitated too long and given them an opening to escape; hell, he could even have admitted he couldn't bring himself to kill them and intentionally given them a head-start. It wouldn't have taken much wavering on his part for two trained and armed spies to have gotten away from a single agent, without having Stan consciously and completely betray his own mission for the sake of two assassins. 

 

1 minute ago, Kokapetl said:

But Paige didn’t go to Chicago. And a person’s hair being found in a car isn’t absolute proof that that person was in the car. It could be argued that Elizabeth used the same hairbrush on occasion, or they shared an item of clothing. Or Paige’s hair could’ve have ended up on Elizabeth’s clothes via a couch or another piece of furniture at home. 

I tend to agree. I think the FBI could plausibly come up with enough evidence that they'd be pretty damned sure that Paige was involved, but not enough to convict her. In the real world, how many times has there been grave suspicion that the wife of a major criminal was in on it, but not enough to actually charge her? Look at the Boston marathon bomber's widow - almost no one believes that she was an innocent party, but after several rounds of questioning and investigation, as far as I know she's still walking around. 

[kokapetl]

The Renee KGB question that Phil threw out would likely resolve itself. With the Jennings gone, she has no reason to stay. If she stays, she’s not KGB. 

Edited May 31, 2018 by Kokapetl

[rehoboth]

7 hours ago, kikaha said:

The unresolved issues -- Renee, Oleg, Paige to name a few -- leave the door open for "The Americans: the movie."

Six seasons and a movie!

[BingeyKohan]

Finales are so difficult to comment on - like Paige maybe it's more sensible to jump off the train a couple of stops early and let it go on without you. But I do need to process losing the family. Like Mad Men, I think this will become a show I can revisit with random episodes Sunday afternoon for quite a while. I loved how they upended expectations and roles all the way until the end. I didn't necessarily expect the major confrontation to come in Act I but it was perfect, and perfect that it was in a garage, repository of all Stan's suspicions. If there was any sense of the Renee tease having been "earned" it came as the coup de grace from Philip that I felt really allowed them to get away without Stan shooting at the car - his mind had just been thoroughly blown, already having heard them evoke the same save-the-world language as Oleg, who he knows to be essentially good. (I didn't know Laurie Holden before this show so her casting didn't feel to me portentous of some big scenes they were saving her for; she could have been cast on the strength of her unreadable expressions alone.) I have to give credit for the character of Henry and his ability to wield so much emotional power with so little screen time. Just hearing Philip, Elizabeth, or Paige say his name felt like a gut punch, in ways scenes with the actual actor (nothing against him) wouldn't have been able to accomplish. He was more of an idea than a character, which isn't a criticism. He unwittingly got a great line: "You better let Mom drive home." She did! Other things I loved (with sadness): the look on Paige's face when she sat down on the bench on the train platform, finally free; Elizabeth throwing the cyanide locket in the identity pit; the way Philip succeeded with Stan the way he spied, finding the truth in the lies; Elizabeth bewildered by art; seeing them come full circle, and arrive back home as newlyweds. It wasn't perfect, but it was never going to be - we wanted the moon but like Elizabeth once told Henry the moon isn't everything.

[Chaos Theory]

I really liked that it was all I wanted it to be and so much more.   I know people are going to pick it to pieces and find fault with it but I am happy with it.

I liked where everyone ended up.  I loved the confrontation with Stan and the Jennings. The only thing I wish is that he would have mentioned “Clarke Westerfeld”.  Other then that it was everything I wanted it to be and more.  “You were my best friend”.   No that is not me ugly crying.  Also I was not ugly crying at the phone call to Henry

I also really liked that Paige got off the train.  For better and worse she is ultimately an American and she wants to protect Henry who she views as an innocent.  I did like Paige’s ending  like Oleg is left open and not really a happy one a but neither are bad people.

I also kinda liked that the Renee question was never answered.  

Edited May 31, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Ina123]

6 hours ago, kay1864 said:

Fun fact:  the McD bag that Liz passed to Paige clearly had empty boxes in it. Way too light. 

And no drinks.

[kokapetl]

I think it’s also worth considering that Stan may also have chosen to let the Jennings go because he wanted to avoid a gun fight. Phil and Liz would reasonably be considered armed and dangerous, and Liz definitely packed at least one gun at the end of the previous episode.

[Midnight Cheese]

Loved it.   Completely satisfying, and completely devastating.   Part of me thinks the show runners had Paige clarify her age when she learned a sliver of the truth, had her insist they call Henry, and had her get off the train, to emphasize that her childhood and life were stolen from her, too.  The sequence with Gregory and Dev’s observations about Elizabeth’s smoking: magnificent!   

Who knew how upsetting a resolution with zero deaths and some hope (Arkady lives!) would be.

[Umbelina]

15 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

The Renee KGB question that Phil threw out would likely resolve itself. With the Jennings gone, she has no reason to stay. If she stays, she’s not KGB. 

Renee's job may have had very little to do with Philip and Elizabeth though, or at least not her only reason for being placed with Stan.  After all, we know for a fact that embedded spies were still here just 8 years ago.  Renee could be one of them.

[RedHawk]

7 hours ago, theartandsound said:

Similar sentiments, but not exactly. Here is the scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6FiHLfogsU

Thanks so much for this! My memory of their first night in the USA was indeed wrong although, yes, the sentiments are similar. 

And the video clip that followed this one was of their first meeting in Moscow so it was perfect to see that again. 

Edited May 31, 2018 by RedHawk

[AdebisiLives]

I can't believe all the Negative Nancys on this forum... I've only skimmed through 2 pages of this thread & I've had enough!  The overwhelmingly positive consensus on Reddit is in direct opposition to most of the complaining on here. TV critics seem to agree with Reddit.  I'm out. 

[MisterBluxom]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

<snip>

In my mind Renee is definitely KGB now.  I think Paige will go to Stan and make a plan, and probably become much closer to Henry again.  Philip and Elizabeth, if they survive, will send money to the kids to finish school, to live.  They certainly aren't out of danger now, not at all, and neither is Arkady...but they all may make it.  I'm sad for Oleg, I think he will be in jail for a long time, but I'll still do my fan-wank that when the USSR falls, he'll somehow be released in all of that hoopla and "we are all friends now, Da?" celebrations.

We saw that E packed stacks of cash in that duffel bag. I'd like to have seen if she got that bag out of the USA. Did she deposit most of it in some Swiss bank (or another nation with strong bank privacy). I don't see how they will be sending the kids much money if they didn't secure some of the cash in that duffel bag.

It is kind of doubtful they will be making much money in Russia now. Unless they engage in some kind of Mafia type of activities. After all, there are many wealthy Russians who made their money with the sex trade or other kinds of criminal enterprises.

[Ina123]

I have a real problem with the Renee thing. If she is KGB and is supposed to keep an eye on P & E, she knew Stan was wising up to them. He was giving all the signals of being on the scent.

If she was there to protect P & E's identities then she could have warned the Center and gotten them out way before the heat was on. It would be in the Center's best interest to get them out. If they were captured and interrogated they could break and give up the Center's operational structure, etc. E & P were VIP Russian spies. A lot was invested in them. Yet, Renee gave no warning, at least that we saw.

Otherwise, if she is a spy, was she only there to snoop on Stan's FBI work and/or to get her foot in the door of the FBI?

[RedHawk]

I loved it. One of the best finales I’ve ever seen. What an amazing series it’s been. 

[Umbelina]

The real spies that inspired this show went back to Russia ended up making tons of money and placed in profitable jobs.  The USSR is just about to become capitalist, and at least the Jennings family knows how that works now.

Renee could be there for many reasons, including getting that job at the FBI.  Stan was an easy mark, with all of Philip's reports on him, they knew exactly what he would want in a wife.   She was probably aware Phil and Liz were KGB, but that doesn't mean they were her "job" at all.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Umbelina

[MisterBluxom]

13 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

I loved it. One of the best finales I’ve ever seen. What an amazing series it’s been. 

The combination of acting, music and the cinematography made it an extremely beautiful final.

Yes. The McDonalds bag that E pased to Paige did likely contain empty boxes and no drinks. I thought that was a nice treat for us to laugh at.

It seemed to me the writing was no better and no worse than it had been all along (with the exception of the dismal Season 5).

All in all, I loved this show and I really enjoyed participating in this forum.

Edited May 31, 2018 by MissBluxom

[Bannon]

28 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

But Paige didn’t go to Chicago. And a person’s hair being found in a car isn’t absolute proof that that person was in the car. It could be argued that Elizabeth used the same hairbrush on occasion, or they shared an item of clothing. Or Paige’s hair could’ve have ended up on Elizabeth’s clothes via a couch or another piece of furniture at home. 

She didn't have to go to Chicago. The point is both Paige and Marilyn used the card in D.C.  and Marilyn is now short a head and hands, after Chicago. Yes, that link is not enough, in isolation, but it is enough for Paige to get the magnyfing glass treatment from the FBI for the rest of her life. If somebody wants to say that she'll hold up, hey people can think that, obviously. I think Liz and Phil are being written as idiots when they tell each other, at the end of the episode, that their kids will be fine.

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, GussieK said:

But they think Paige escaped. They don't know she got off the train. I don't think she plans to surface as herself. 

I think they will suffer inside as does anyone who returns from war. I think they have remorse. 

If Paige's plan is to escape, then having her return to the D.C. safehouse, to do some vodka shots, is incredibly dumb. Yeah, that Paige, criminal mastermind, is really built for life on the run.

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

She didn't have to go to Chicago. The point is both Paige and Marilyn used the card in D.C.  and Marilyn is now short a head and hands, after Chicago. Yes, that link is not enough, in isolation, but it is enough for Paige to get the magnyfing glass treatment from the FBI for the rest of her life. If somebody wants to say that she'll hold up, hey people can think that, obviously. I think Liz and Phil are being written as idiots when they tell each other, at the end of the episode, that their kids will be fine.

Paige could cut a deal, and Stan could probably help her with that.  She has information they want, she can identify Marilyn for one thing, and Claudia, and the safe house, the garage, the procedures, trade craft, how often they switch out cars, etc.  The FBI still wants to catch other embedded spies.

It's also a pretty good argument that Paige was coerced at a young age. 

It depends on the press really, if Henry and Paige become famous for having spy parents?  Neither is likely to have a very good life.  Since their parents weren't caught, and the FBI is looking to round up other spies?  There may be no press on this case, especially if Paige agrees to cooperate with the FBI.  I'm pretty sure Paige wants nothing to do with spying or politics again, and that could be part of her plea deal as well.  Stay out of government jobs, etc.

She might be OK.

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

If Paige's plan is to escape, then having her return to the D.C. safehouse, to do some vodka shots, is incredibly dumb. Yeah, that Paige, criminal mastermind, is really built for life on the run.

We know that's not her plan.  She wants to be with Henry, so of course she wants to live as Paige, go back to school, probably change majors to something like Vet school, and just go live her life.

[Chaos Theory]

I am probably explaining this badly but one of the reasons I both like...and dislike Paige’s ending is.....

 

Paige actively chose her worst fear “being alone”  because in her mind it was the right thing to do and everything has been leading up to this storyline with last episode confronting of her mother and she wanted to stay with Henry.  That being said I was really hoping for a more cynical ending for Paige like having Claudia still being there or something.   But that is a minor minor minor nitpick.

 

i don’t think Paige had a plan plan.  She just doesn’t want to go to Russia.  I don’t think that is dumb.  I think a lot of “Paige Haters” are too focused on her being stupid.  Which she isn’t.    She is on the run with no plan.  She is at the safe house to make one.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[millennium]

4 hours ago, J-Man said:

I half-expected Phil and Liz to ditch Paige at the McDonald's

 

Now that's what I call a Happy Meal.

[Midnight Cheese]

2 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I am probably explaining this badly but one of the reasons I both like...and dislike Paige’s ending is.....

 

Paige actively chose her worst fear “being alone”  because in her mind it was the right thing to do and everything has been leading up to this storyline was with last episode confronting of her mother and she wanted to stay with Henry.  That being said I was really hoping for a more cynical ending for Paige like having Claudia still being there or something.   But that is a minor minor minor nitpick.

I agree.

Paige was damned brave in this, IMO.  How absurd to put expectations that she act like Philizabeth when she lived a wholly different life, one fundamentally standing on a lie.

[Umbelina]

I really did appreciate that in this episode Paige finally grew not only a brain, but UP.

She made her own choice, and she made it for valid reasons, not wanting to live in Russia, not wanting Henry to be alone, and the fact that her mother had still been lying to her after all she'd done to please her. 

I LOVED seeing her standing outside the train, and loved the expression on her face.  Someone in the chat thread said she had brass ovaries.  She really did, that was a smart, and a brave, and also a caring move for her to make.  I think she stopped at Claudia's to dump the disguise, have a drink or two, before facing her next steps.  Hopefully she calls Stan as soon as she's thought it through, and they go to the FBI together, after a visit with Henry. 

She's going to need some new ID.  Unless she leads the FBI back to that burial site of course, which she probably will.

[Bannon]

Well, look, the FBI never tried Sammy Gravano for murder, despite his having admitting to killing 18 people, because the FBI needed his testimony against Gotti. Anything's possible. I just thought it was incredibly poor writing to have hyperrealists Liz and Phil be so dumb as to be telling each other that their kids will be fine. Frankly, it wasn't great writing at the beginning of the show for Elizabeth to be so quickly convinced that Henry wouldn't be torn to pieces, because he doesn't know anything. As if that reliably stops the FBI from tearing people to pieces. I mean, going to pick up Henry would have been a more dumb writing choice, but what was chosen, Liz and Phil saying stupid stuff to each other, wasn't great.

I know most people think it was a written episode, but I really disliked it.

[Erin9]

5 hours ago, Cardie said:

I like the double meaning of the title. Yes, the season-long Summit arc will culminate in the START treaty but nearly every character will have to start their lives over again after the events in this episode.

Although one cannot limit meaning to what the writers say they intended, the Js told Sepinwall that Philip tells Stan his suspicions about Renee, not to eff with him, but out of sincere concern.

Indeed. Everyone is starting over. I tend to feel they’ll all be okay. And I like to think they’ll meet up with their kids somewhere at some point. 

Back when Philip and Elizabeth got married, Andre said would need to fill out the paperwork when they got home. At the time I thought: never going to happen. They’ll never go home.  Well, they can, and I’m sure will now. 

I have no doubt that was why Philip told Stan: genuine concern. When Philip voiced  his doubts about Renee in S5, he was worried about Stan. He didn’t want him to become another Martha. He told Stan his suspicions FOR Stan. He was trying to be a friend in that last moment. Give him a chance to protect himself. 

[KBrownie]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

Unfortunately, while I liked large portions of the finale, the central scene -- Stan letting them go -- simply doesn't work for me. At all. 

I could buy Stan passing on the encoded message. Had circumstances permitted it, I could even have bought him letting Oleg escape, because he is someone who has been known to put the personal ahead of the national. But the Jenningses? Knowing, or having a very good idea, of what they've done over the years? Nope. I don't care how disillusioned Stan was, and how much he may have identified on some level with Philip's attitude. First of all, attempts at establishing a moral equivalence notwithstanding, I don't think Stan is so thoroughly disillusioned that he believes that his entire FBI career has been a waste, or that there's no value in what they're trying to do. Maybe he no longer wants to be a Cold Warrior, but he's spent years putting away violent white supremacists, and he's seen first-hand the absolute brutality of the KGB. The FBI may have blood on its hands, too, but I simply don't believe that Stan Beeman would so thoroughly buy into the idea that spying is spying wherever you do it that he would do what he did here. Especially given that, while I think Philip was being (mostly) sincere, Stan could never have been sure how much Philip was playing him in this scene. The guy has been lying to him for years. Even if Stan gets why he would have had to do that, and is willing to allow for the possibility that their friendship was genuine, the possibility that he was being played by these people yet again would, I think, have factored into his decision.

Beyond that, I think the show is guilty of forgetting that relationships that matter to us because they've been given significant narrative attention shouldn't necessarily have the same weight to our characters. I believe that Stan and Philip genuinely care about each other, as do Stan and Henry. But let's not pretend they've been devoted bosom buddies for years. Philip and Stan are friends, and good ones. Because of the relative isolation of their respective lives, that friendship has more emotional significance for both than it might otherwise have assumed. But they are both extremely busy men who have their own lives and other connections. Stan has been with Renee for several years. He has a son who he has at least some relationship with. He's friendly enough with Aderholdt and his wife to socialize together outside of work. I just don't believe he's so deeply emotionally tied to Philip that, even after coming into the garage prepared to make an arrest, he's willing to overlook the fact that he and his wife are spies who have been involved in the murders of people Stan cared about. It isn't like Philip nursed Stan through advanced cancer or took his family in after their home was destroyed in a fire. They were friends - maybe close ones, but not extraordinarily so.  Similarly, while Stan and Henry have an unusually close relationship, Stan is not Henry's surrogate father and Henry is not Stan's foster son. Henry has his own parents, one of whom he has a reasonably close relationship with. He's also been away at school for long portions of the last three years. Stan is a trusted adult, but I don't actually believe that Henry "loves" him. He likes and respects him. Trying to sell it as more than that is, IMO, symptomatic of the exaggerated relationship we're supposed to believe Stan and the Jenningses had in order for Stan's decision to work. 

That major, major caveat aside, I thought most of the finale worked - especially, and quite surprisingly, Paige's ending, which in retrospect was brilliantly set up: even her question early in the car trip about whether or not they could trust Stan takes on a very different meaning in light of her later choice. In the end, I differ from a lot of people in not thinking that her actions were primarily directed by concern for Henry; while I'm sure she loves him, that relationship hasn't had enough focus for years for me to accept it in narrative terms as the prevailing reason. Rather, I think a lot of her distress over Henry's fate was driven by the recognition that, had things gone a little differently, her parents might be willingly leaving her behind as well. The tragedy here is that while P&E really do sincerely love their children, they've betrayed them so fundamentally by the very nature of the family that Paige can't take that final step with them; she's already alone. 

As for her future... I'm less sure. I do, for the first time, buy that she would be able to withstand interrogation. The woman who just made the choice she did, and is last seen sitting alone in Claudia's apartment, has at long last developed the maturity to see what's at stake and say what she needs to say. Yes, it still takes some suspension of disbelief to think the FBI, after a a thorough investigation, wouldn't find some evidence tying her to her parents' activities, but not so much that I can't accept it. So logically, it probably makes the most sense to think that she's going to go to Stan and Henry and continue living on as Paige Jennings. But somehow, I don't see it. She's already gotten Stan to commit to taking care of Henry, and if the show wanted us to think that Paige was staying for him, they could have had her be the one to go to Henry at school, and then show them with Stan in a later montage to establish that he was helping them. Instead, we see her drinking in the apartment of a woman who - unlike Elizabeth, in the end -- was an ultimate survivor who was able to shed all emotional ties to do what needed to be done. Paige is past idealism, and certainly isn't going to try to resume a spy life. But while it takes more suspension of disbelief to imagine her starting over entirely under a new identity than it does for me to imagine the FBI not identifying her as an accomplice, in an emotional sense the finale seems to be pointing more toward Paige disappearing into some anonymous, lonely life than it does to her rebuilding with Henry with help from Stan. At the very least, even if she continues living in the DC area as Paige Jennings, I don't see her actually developing a close relationship with Henry, continuing with college, etc. We heard how destroyed Jackson the intern was last week; Paige is going to be at least as badly off.

Philip and Elizabeth didn't get what they deserve, but that seems right to me, too; often, people don't. What does fit for me is that ironically, what they wind up losing is actually the one thing they arguably deserved to keep: their relationship with their children. As Elizabeth says (in Russian, no less!), they'll get used to the life they have now, but it is a sadly diminished life in which neither has even their patriotic illusions to sustain them. That they're alive, together and walking free means that they are better off than they deserve, but it is pretty bleak, all the same.

You have perfectly captured my feelings about almost everything regarding why I feel this finale was a total copout and disappointing, to say the least.

In regards to Stan, I completely agree that trying to create some equivalency between him and Phillip/Elizabeth in terms of what they do is ludicrous.  As is the idea that Stan cared just SO, SO, much about Phillip that he would throw away everything he ever claimed to believe in and worked for by just letting them go.  Someone, sorry but this thread is moving super fast, earlier in this thread made the claim, in justifying why Stan let them go, that Stan was never a patriot to his country and this is just absolutely not true.  It was just two or three episodes ago that the writers chose to reinforce Stan's commitment and loyalty to his country, but he's just going to throw all that away because it's his buddy, Phil?  Nope.  And it's not about caring about Henry either.  He could have still done anything that he's going to end up doing to help Henry.  Once the show decided that it wanted to end with Phillip and Elizabeth together and safe in Russia, they knew that the biggest obstacle to that happening, Stan, would have to be dealt with and this is how they chose to do it.  The big, overwrought confrontation in the garage was pure melodrama to play up a relationship that ended up being completely one-sided in the end.  People are patting Stan on the back for being such a great friend, but absolving Phillip of being the worst.  I don't believe he knew anything about Renee.  It was just the final of the desperate bombs he was slinging to get Stan to stand down.  The "take care of Henry" was another one.  Renee's look back at the Jennings house after Stan left could have been her anger at them for what she thought was betraying her husband.  Or maybe she is KGB.  Whatever, Phillip throws it out there, not for his good buddy Stan, but to manipulate him to let him and Elizabeth go.  What a great guy, that Phillip.  It's disgusting to me that I'm supposed to cheer Phillip and Elizabeth's ending compared to what everyone else ends up having to sacrifice for them.  But that's often how life works.  Evil people who do evil things often aren't held accountable for what they do.  Or at least they aren't held responsible in proportion to the havoc they caused.

And yeah, they DID get a happy ending.  As much of a happy ending as was possible for a show like this.  I keep seeing that "they lost their kids" as their punishment, but then turn around and negate all that by talk of how the kids can just come and visit in a few years and all will be swell.  And Phillip can just go find his other kid in the meantime.  Phil and Liz can start working for the new murderers who end up controlling Russia.  Who cares about those suckers in America? And by the end when all was said and done, Phil and Liz had gotten over whatever turmoil they felt leaving the kids behind.  They were over it and ready to move on.  They were rationalizing the hell out of the mess they created and left them in by talking about how they had already been raised and would be fine.  Yeah, they wish.  Paige made her own decision, but like the post above mentions, they doomed both of them from the start by creating them only for the purpose of furthering their lie of a life.  Sure, it's great that they loved them.  But they didn't love them enough to not put them in this situation, to begin with.  No mention of that for either of them.  The only way that "losing the kids" would have been an appropriate punishment for them is if one or both of them had been killed.  Then they could be on the other side for once of all the lives they took for their "cause."

I also agree that Paige didn't get off the train for Henry.  She got off for herself mostly.  Sure, reconnecting with Henry probably entered her mind, but her main focus?  No way.  All the sudden concern and repeated "what about Henry?" was too convenient.  Especially since they've shown no bond between the two since Henry went away to school.  If they wanted to do a better job of selling that, they could have had at least some interaction between the two leading up to this.  Paige could have some conversation with him at Thanksgiving, SOMETHING, to make her sudden interest seem genuine.  When Phillip was asking her what Henry would do in Russia, she probably asked herself that same question and came up with nothing.  She finally realized that the "cause" of her parents wasn't hers and that she would always just be a secondary concern.  Like she always had been.  A means to an end.  Created for the sole purpose of furthering the lie of her life.

Edited May 31, 2018 by KBrownie
Forgot to mention something about Renee

[Moose135]

31 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

There wasn't any real violence.  I don't know why it was rated as such.

I don't get that either.  I kept waiting for something to happen, a shootout in the garage with Stan, or with the Border Patrol on the train, or something.  I was amazed they made it through a 90 minute episode without killing anyone!

[benteen]

I thought the finale was really good with some great scenes and acting.  Matthew Rhys definitely turned in an Emmy-winning performance and Noah Emmercih was quite good in that scene too.  The finale wasn't quite what I expected.

The garage scene was probably the best scene in the entire series.  Great acting and tension and it was allowed to run long.  I never expected Stan to confront them that way.  I also never expected Stan to let them go. 

I thought Philip was going to stop his car next to Stan and tell him "BTW, I killed your partner BYE!" then speed the car out of there like a madman.  That was have been pretty hilarious but that was a legitimate flaw with a brilliant scene.  Stan wouldn't have forgotten what happened to Amador.  Not to mention what happened to Gaad.

Philip throwing in the Renee thing to Stan was hilarious but that doesn't excuse the two-year jerkoff that was the Renee character.  Renee, Mischa...this was a sign of how bad the writing and storytelling choices got with the show over the past two years.

They made the right decision with Henry and the last scene with the family calling him was great.

The Paige scene was a surprise...I don't know what the hell she thinks she's going to do now.  She's an idiot.  It would be hilarious if she showed up in Buenos Aires at Pastor Tim's door.

Loved the song choices, particularly the U2 song.

Poor Oleg.  He deserved a lot better than what he got.  I was glad to see Arkady and I find Oleg's father (who looks like an older Putin) to be a really underrated character on the show.  Nice touch with the Gregory cameo.

Didn't expect Philip and Elizabeth to return to Russia.  Especially Philip, who I was sure would be dead.  That opens the door for a lot more storytelling.  I really wanted there to be a flash forward and that's probably going to be my biggest disappointment with the show.

[kokapetl]

1 minute ago, Moose135 said:

I don't get that either.  I kept waiting for something to happen, a shootout in the garage with Stan, or with the Border Patrol on the train, or something.  I was amazed they made it through a 90 minute episode without killing anyone!

I think Stan holding the Jennings at gunpoint is considered violence. 

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I think Stan knows.  Stan also know what he has done.  I think in a small way he could relate to them.

And I hate that writing choice. "Oh, hey, you stabbed my partner to death, an event so traumatic for me that I committed murder in response, but now that we are in this garage, and you are telling me that I should have stayed in est (!), and I was your best friend, and you just were doing your job, I'm going to let you drive away!".

Of course, the writers didn't have Stan mention Amador in that ridiculously talky scene, because doing so makes Stan sound even too stupid for these writers.

[Umbelina]

I think the question of Amador's death was resolved last episode or the one before that.  Stan was convinced Gregory was the one who killed him.  He never connected Martha with Amador's death.

A bit lame, but oh well.

I think it's pretty tough to compare KGB to FBI.  You can compare them to the CIA, but FBI is purely a domestic force, while CIA operates in other countries, as our KGB on this show has.

[KBrownie]

2 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

I loved this episode. I thought it was almost perfect. I’m a little concerned about Paige ending up at Claudia’s. I don’t understand why Phil and Liz escaping the law is such an issue, this wasn’t a cop show. The dramatic conflicts presented to viewers were satisfactorily resolved. 

No one said it was a cop show.  Some people just have different opinions than yours.  No one is more right than any others.  Some, myself included wanted them held more accountable for all the terrible things they did.  For me, it didn't have to necessarily be from law enforcement.  I would have taken one of them having to watch the other die, not that Elizabeth would have really cared or watching their kids die.  As for as things being "satisfactorily resolved,"  not at all in my opinion.  Which is what "satisfactorily resolved" is.  Not a fact by any means.

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

What happens to P & E's house and vehicles?  Can't they be sold?

I think a lawyer may have to answer that one.

However, my guess is that even if they were sold, it might just pay off Philip's creditors for the loans he took out for the business. 

[Erin9]

30 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

So will everyone that watched the series.  It will be a question that goes unanswered. 

I don't need to have everything tied up into a little bow.  I'm okay with how the series ended.

I kind of like that it was somewhat open ended. They gave closure to the Jennings life as spies in America. And allowed them, in the end, to accomplish something big- the Summit will be a success. And they thwarted a coup. That’s good for everyone. For the world. And Stan saw the big picture. No doubt that was one reason he let them go. 

You can decide for yourself how everyone moves forward. I’m putting a positive spin on everyone’s future. Who knows- maybe Philip and Elizabeth will have a Russian kid. Lol 

Elizabeth being the one who grabbed the go-bag was so important. She’d felt betrayed by Philip. But when it was time to run, she grabbed the real rings. And when they shed their American lives, she handed him the real ring. Lovely. It told me all I needed to know. Well that and them standing together in the end. 

There are questions I have- about Philip’s past, for instance. I would have liked more conversation between the kids and their parents. Would have liked Elizabeth to tell Philip she loved him. But, overall, it was a very good, very fitting wrap up. 

[Bannon]

I think the major divergence of views in this episode is due to how differently the garage scene is viewed, and that difference in views is interesting. I thought the scene was too ridiculous for words. I almost laughed out loud when Phil brought up est.

Obviously, most people here saw it differently. Well, it would be a boring world if we all saw it the saw it the same way. Vive la difference...

10 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

What happens to P & E's house and vehicles?  Can't they be sold?

Wait until the wrongful death lawsuits. Oh, wait, right......

...the warehouse security guys all committed suicide!

Edited May 31, 2018 by Bannon

[SunnyBeBe]

6 hours ago, anonymiss said:

That makes perfect sense, especially when she tries to recover with something like, "Maybe we would have met...like on a train...."

Some residual regrets about what happened to Nina may have factored into Stan making the decision to put his gun down.

The priest interrogation scene dragged on too long. Also, was there a mistake in the photograph? Why was Philip photographed in disguise with his eyes obscured by dark sunglasses? As far as I recall, he was wearing spectacles, as he always has in that particular (non)disguise.

I didn't hate it nor could I love it because it was so simple. I can appreciate that they stayed true to the restrained quietness that is this show but there always was enough of a long-game payoff. I didn't get it this time--the time that it matters most. 

I didn't get a good look of the photos on the table before Aderholt.  I read here that they were shown to Father Andrea but, I never actually saw it.  At what point? I'm going to rewatch it again today.  You say that in the photos he was wearing sunglasses? If so, then that photo is from somewhere else and not when he was with Father Andrea, right?

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, KBrownie said:

No one said it was a cop show.  Some people just have different opinions than yours.  No one is more right than any others.  Some, myself included wanted them held more accountable for all the terrible things they did.  For me, it didn't have to necessarily be from law enforcement.  I would have taken one of them having to watch the other die, not that Elizabeth would have really cared or watching their kids die.  As for as things being "satisfactorily resolved,"  not at all in my opinion.  Which is what "satisfactorily resolved" is.  Not a fact by any means.

I'm fine with Liz and Phil getting back to the USSR. I just hate that Stan the Idiot returned to facilitate the escape, with what I saw as ridiculous dialogue in the garage.

[Umbelina]

6 minutes ago, KBrownie said:

No one said it was a cop show.  Some people just have different opinions than yours.  No one is more right than any others.  Some, myself included wanted them held more accountable for all the terrible things they did.  For me, it didn't have to necessarily be from law enforcement.  I would have taken one of them having to watch the other die, not that Elizabeth would have really cared or watching their kids die.  As for as things being "satisfactorily resolved,"  not at all in my opinion.  Which is what "satisfactorily resolved" is.  Not a fact by any means.

Well, cheer up.  They will probably be murdered along with Arkady, Oleg's dad, possibly his wife and mother too.  They went against powerful people in the USSR to try to keep Arms Control and other reforms in the USSR going.

Also, if anyone honestly thinks the CIA isn't responsible for hundreds or thousands of innocent deaths in other countries?  Hello!  Should they all be "held accountable" for fighting for their countries and following orders too?

2 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

 

There are questions I have- about Philip’s past, for instance. I would have liked more conversation between the kids and their parents. Would have liked Elizabeth to tell Philip she loved him. But, overall, it was a very good, very fitting wrap up. 

My two biggest gripes about the show are:

1. Season five.
2. Not getting the complete Philip backstory!  What the hell?  We watched wheat grow, but never found out what happened to him in the Gulag, or even how he was chosen from a Gulag life to become KGB, which at the time was the best possible job for any peasant in the USSR.  !!!!

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

I think the major divergence of views in this episode is due to how differently the garage scene is viewed, and that difference in views is interesting. I thought the scene was too ridiculous for words. I almost laughed out loud when Phil brought up est.

Obviously, most people here saw it differently. Well, it would be a boring world if we all saw it the saw it the same way. Vive la difference...

The EST comment did strike me as odd, but not funny.  I think it was in there because it was through EST that Philip was finally able to allow his true self to be recognized, which ultimately resulted in him quitting the KGB.  He fought for his country and for the WORLD when Oleg explained how much was at stake though.  That was Philip operating from his "true self" which EST helped him find.

The rest of the scene though?  Just stunning to me, especially Noah's acting.  He said multitudes with his face and body, just outstanding work.

[Erin9]

2 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Stan would protect Paige for Henry's sake.  Henry lost his parents, he can't lose his sister too.

Yes. And his own. Paige and Stan both know the truth (most of it) about each other. 

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I didn't get a good look of the photos on the table before Aderholt.  I read here that they were shown to Father Andrea but, I never actually saw it.  At what point? I'm going to rewatch it again today.  You say that in the photos he was wearing sunglasses? If so, then that photo is from somewhere else and not when he was with Father Andrea, right?

The photos were conveniently blurry, preventing Aderholt and Stan from making a quick positive ID of Phil, because if that happens, we can't have Stan and Phil yakking about their feewings in the garage. Ugh. The more I think about it, the more I hate it.

[companionenvy]

11 minutes ago, KBrownie said:

When Phillip was asking her what Henry would do in Russia, she probably asked herself that same question and came up with nothing. 

I totally agree with this. I'm not condemning Paige for it - quite the contrary -- but this is part of what made me feel that a large part of her concern with Henry was projection. She was making it all about Henry to avoid asking the more obvious question of what was going to become of her.

5 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Stan has killed innocent people too.  I don't think Stan believes for minute that the Jenningses haven't killed people.

Again, this kind of moral equivalency is part of what bothers me about the idea. Stan's killing of Vlad was inexcusable, and the FBI has certainly played dirty over the course of the series, but none of this rises to the level of what the Jenningses have done. Even if Stan doesn't know the whole laundry list of crimes, he knows enough -- and, perhaps more importantly, we as viewers know enough -- that it isn't satisfying to play this as one spy realizing he has no room to pass judgment on another, because he absolutely does. 

17 minutes ago, KBrownie said:

I keep seeing that "they lost their kids" as their punishment, but then turn around and negate all that by talk of how the kids can just come and visit in a few years and all will be swell. 

A number of posts have said this, but I don't think the show supports this reading. There are certain extreme cases - i.e, a show/novel about a Jewish family in Germany set in the early 1930s -- in which the burden of history is so great that it is impossible not to read the natural conclusion into the narrative, but I don't think that is the case here. Fundamentally, the show was presenting this as P&E losing their kids for good. While we know that the fall of the USSR could theoretically create some opportunities for them to be reunited, it isn't enough of an inevitability to override the overwhelming sense that this was it for the Jennings family. Paige and Henry are going to continue to have complicated feelings for their parents. P&E may have very limited freedom of movement outside of Russia for years to come. Paige and Henry may themselves remain under just enough scrutiny that a trip to Russia or even another Eastern European country isn't in the cards. By the time this opportunity comes at all, years will have passed, and there are going to be basic logistical difficulties to re-establishing contact with people who will have some reason for staying off the radar. Even if P&E can track down Henry (I suspect Paige will be living a more marginal life and would thus be a much tougher find), they might decide that it is better for him for them not to reopen that door. Henry and Paige aren't likely to be able to track down their parents, even if a trip to Russia is a realistic possibility for them. At best, there's some possibility of what would likely be a one-time reunion far in the future, on the order of what Elizabeth had with her mother. But for all intents and purposes there's no hope of reestablishing any real family unit, so the gloom of the ending stays.

Sad as I am to say it, I feel the same about suggestions that Oleg will probably get out thanks to pro-Gorbachev forces. The show explicitly raised this hope only to dash it, and while I know that the political situation is going to change enough that it isn't totally implausible, the show wouldn't have included that scene if they'd wanted us to hold on to that possibility. We're left with the understanding that Oleg is going to be serving a long prison sentence, and there's nothing in the historical circumstances strong enough to contradict it.

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Well, cheer up.  They will probably be murdered along with Arkady, Oleg's dad, possibly his wife and mother too.  They went against powerful people in the USSR to try to keep Arms Control and other reforms in the USSR going.

Also, if anyone honestly thinks the CIA isn't responsible for hundreds or thousands of innocent deaths in other countries?  Hello!  Should they all be "held accountable" for fighting for their countries and following orders too?

My two biggest gripes about the show are:

1. Season five.
2. Not getting the complete Philip backstory!  What the hell?  We watched wheat grow, but never found out what happened to him in the Gulag, or even how he was chosen from a Gulag life to become KGB, which at the time was the best possible job for any peasant in the USSR.  !!!!

The EST comment did strike me as odd, but not funny.  I think it was in there because it was through EST that Philip was finally able to allow his true self to be recognized, which ultimately resulted in him quitting the KGB.  He fought for his country and for the WORLD when Oleg explained how much was at stake though.  That was Philip operating from his "true self" which EST helped him find.

The rest of the scene though?  Just stunning to me, especially Noah's acting.  He said multitudes with his face and body, just outstanding work.

I thought the acting was great, but the premise the actors were given was too stupid for words.

[JFParnell]

So that happened. What do we do now? To quote the Police, "there's a hole in my life." (Did they ever use Every Breath You Take in this show? Cant remember! Might have worked well.)

Watchable, I guess. Muted. No deaths. I need to watch it again to more thoroughly decide what I think. lol

Did they ever again match the pilot episode? For my money they didn't. But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

Poor Stan has only one thing that's pure left to hold onto: Henry. Being his surrogate father. It's the one thing left he can do and get right, IF he gets to do it at all. (And the poor oaf will probably mess that up too.)

Speaking of ... Noah Emmerich's note left behind in the writers' room, after his last day on set: "Next time, make me smarter. Or maybe, you know what? Just don't call me at all. Thanks for nothing. Sincerely, N."

Not sure I agree with those up yonder in the thread who said Philip "mind f***ed" Stan in the garage. I'm buying what we were meant to think: that Philip WAS largely truthful. He WAS out, done, sick of it, a failed travel agent; Stan WAS the closest thing to a friend he'd ever had, etc. I didn't hear him telling Stan about Renee as an FU but as a last gesture, possibly a decent one in his mind. 

I wanted conventional justice to be served -- for all the murders, especially poor mail robot warehouse woman. But we were probably never going to get that from this show.

How did Claudia not drink that vodka herself, before she split town?

Paige jumping the train caught me off guard, gotta confess. But right when they DIDN'T show the border guard checking HER passport it was, "Hmmm, ruh-rohhh...."

Paige will be fine. No jail. She'll end up on the Phil Donahue show plugging her blockbuster memoir: "Kid KGB: My Life as a Teenage Spy"

Would have liked a closer-up view of Henry's reaction to finding out; but that would have been a long scene with too much ground to cover, and most shows seem to cheat such scenes with just a long shot and some deeply ominous body language, instead of writing any dialogue. (And maybe that's not a cheat at all -- who knows?)

And Renee..? Oh f'er ... What-ev-errrrr. Imo that was just "wtf?" from the start. What was the point? So their plan for her was really just unresolved Ambiguity? Okie dokee.

OLEG!! Well that sucked. You poor SOB. If this were The Shield, I guess he'd be Ronnie. My dream ending of Philip and Oleg opening a bar in South America shall not come to pass.

[Chaos Theory]

Despite  some really nasty acts of violence and some well done action scenes this show has never really been about action or violence it has been about emotional gut punches.  Which is why the finale ultimately worked for me.  Yeah Stan let the Jennings go.  He was never going to shoot them in the face even less likely in the back and Philip was never going to let Elizabeth kill Stan.   The one thing I might might might have seen happening was my cynical ending of Paige going the other way and shooting Stan but that would change the trajectory of the story and the show which is ultimately not about shootouts but about gut punches.

[Dminches]

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Unfortunately, while I liked large portions of the finale, the central scene -- Stan letting them go -- simply doesn't work for me. At all. 

I could buy Stan passing on the encoded message. Had circumstances permitted it, I could even have bought him letting Oleg escape, because he is someone who has been known to put the personal ahead of the national. But the Jenningses? Knowing, or having a very good idea, of what they've done over the years? Nope. I don't care how disillusioned Stan was, and how much he may have identified on some level with Philip's attitude. First of all, attempts at establishing a moral equivalence notwithstanding, I don't think Stan is so thoroughly disillusioned that he believes that his entire FBI career has been a waste, or that there's no value in what they're trying to do. Maybe he no longer wants to be a Cold Warrior, but he's spent years putting away violent white supremacists, and he's seen first-hand the absolute brutality of the KGB. The FBI may have blood on its hands, too, but I simply don't believe that Stan Beeman would so thoroughly buy into the idea that spying is spying wherever you do it that he would do what he did here. Especially given that, while I think Philip was being (mostly) sincere, Stan could never have been sure how much Philip was playing him in this scene. The guy has been lying to him for years. Even if Stan gets why he would have had to do that, and is willing to allow for the possibility that their friendship was genuine, the possibility that he was being played by these people yet again would, I think, have factored into his decision.

Beyond that, I think the show is guilty of forgetting that relationships that matter to us because they've been given significant narrative attention shouldn't necessarily have the same weight to our characters. I believe that Stan and Philip genuinely care about each other, as do Stan and Henry. But let's not pretend they've been devoted bosom buddies for years. Philip and Stan are friends, and good ones. Because of the relative isolation of their respective lives, that friendship has more emotional significance for both than it might otherwise have assumed. But they are both extremely busy men who have their own lives and other connections. Stan has been with Renee for several years. He has a son who he has at least some relationship with. He's friendly enough with Aderholdt and his wife to socialize together outside of work. I just don't believe he's so deeply emotionally tied to Philip that, even after coming into the garage prepared to make an arrest, he's willing to overlook the fact that he and his wife are spies who have been involved in the murders of people Stan cared about. It isn't like Philip nursed Stan through advanced cancer or took his family in after their home was destroyed in a fire. They were friends - maybe close ones, but not extraordinarily so.  Similarly, while Stan and Henry have an unusually close relationship, Stan is not Henry's surrogate father and Henry is not Stan's foster son. Henry has his own parents, one of whom he has a reasonably close relationship with. He's also been away at school for long portions of the last three years. Stan is a trusted adult, but I don't actually believe that Henry "loves" him. He likes and respects him. Trying to sell it as more than that is, IMO, symptomatic of the exaggerated relationship we're supposed to believe Stan and the Jenningses had in order for Stan's decision to work. 

 

I don't see how can discount the depth of Stan's and Philip's relationship.  When things when sour with Stan and his wife he went to Philip.  That in itself defines what Stan thought about Philip.  And, he loved Henry which also speaks volumes.

As an FBI agent Stan never played it strictly by the books.  Looks at his relationship with Oleg which crossed the line.  Maybe it was just due to Nina but there again it shows how Stan was greatly influenced by his emotions.  His feelings toward Gennadi is another example.

[scartact]

20 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

A number of posts have said this, but I don't think the show supports this reading. There are certain extreme cases - i.e, a show/novel about a Jewish family in Germany set in the early 1930s -- in which the burden of history is so great that it is impossible not to read the natural conclusion into the narrative, but I don't think that is the case here. Fundamentally, the show was presenting this as P&E losing their kids for good. While we know that the fall of the USSR could theoretically create some opportunities for them to be reunited, it isn't enough of an inevitability to override the overwhelming sense that this was it for the Jennings family. Paige and Henry are going to continue to have complicated feelings for their parents. P&E may have very limited freedom of movement outside of Russia for years to come. Paige and Henry may themselves remain under just enough scrutiny that a trip to Russia or even another Eastern European country isn't in the cards. By the time this opportunity comes at all, years will have passed, and there are going to be basic logistical difficulties to re-establishing contact with people who will have some reason for staying off the radar. Even if P&E can track down Henry (I suspect Paige will be living a more marginal life and would thus be a much tougher find), they might decide that it is better for him for them not to reopen that door. Henry and Paige aren't likely to be able to track down their parents, even if a trip to Russia is a realistic possibility for them. At best, there's some possibility of what would likely be a one-time reunion far in the future, on the order of what Elizabeth had with her mother. But for all intents and purposes there's no hope of reestablishing any real family unit, so the gloom of the ending stays.

It's a cold comfort what some of us try to tell ourselves to reconcile with the ultimate break and separation of the family unit. I think there's something pretty heartbreaking about the idea that it will actually become easier for Paige and Henry to visit Phil and Liz, but at that point, after all that time has passed, after they've been able to think through all the betrayal, would they even want to?

I actually think it's in line with the show that their comeuppance is the loss of their children; The Americans has always been more invested in the emotional stakes and interiority of its characters.

Edited May 31, 2018 by scartact

[SunnyBeBe]

19 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think a lawyer may have to answer that one.

However, my guess is that even if they were sold, it might just pay off Philip's creditors for the loans he took out for the business. 

I'm not familiar with the federal laws on seizures of properties longterm, like a house, but, I would think that the FBI would seize any items that might be evidence inside their house and keep in storage. Maybe, impound their vehicles.  Then photograph the rest, like the secret panel and place behind the dryer. Someone would have to make the mortgage payments. If not, the bank would foreclose. What's left, would be left for judgment creditors to seize, if they sue to collect their money.  Same goes for the assets at the business.  

[jjj]

Here's the thing for me:  they basically turned Elizabeth into a vicious feral monster this season, killing in truly nasty ways for minor reasons.  The military office hitting on Paige, the poor schlub with a girlfriend at the warehouse, the Teacups, more.  These were awful, bloody killings. THE FBI AGENTS IN CHICAGO. How could Stan let that go in particular?

If they knew they were going to let her off the hook, WHY make this the most vicious killing season for her?

Edited May 31, 2018 by jjj

[KBrownie]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Also, if anyone honestly thinks the CIA isn't responsible for hundreds or thousands of innocent deaths in other countries?  Hello!  Should they all be "held accountable" for fighting for their countries and following orders too?

Who said anything about the CIA?  Not me.  What does bringing up what they get away with, which I never said was okay because I never mentioned the CIA, have to do with these characters?  The CIA has nothing to do with these characters and why I wish they, specifically, had suffered more for their actions.  Yeah, I wanted them "held accountable."  So what?  Yeah, the CIA also does bad things and gets away with it.  It's wrong when they do too. 

FWIW, I don't think "fighting for one's country" is an accectable excuse for anyone to do the types of things the CIA AND Phillip and Elizabeth have done.  Better?  I included the CIA even though they have nothing to do with anything I was talking about, but okay . . .