S02.E04: The Salem Witch Hunt

[Clanstarling]

14 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I guess Abiah was already married to Ben Franklin's father (since her last name was Franklin), but isn't sending her out of town still a risk to his existence?

She married Ben's father 3 years prior to the Salem Witch Trials (1692-1693). Ben wasn't born until 1706, so that part tracks. But with seven step-children, and birthing her own children pretty often (total of ten), so she'd have been pretty busy. Not sure protesting would have been on the table.

10 hours ago, Sandman said:

He specifically said he wasn't blaming her, and I believe him. But Rufus's knowledge of the future created the conditions for Sewall to be killed. Where's the line between causality loop and self-fulfilling prophecy?

Yes he did. But his attitude didn't match his words (some of which did seem to blame her) - which is why I said "essentially" and not simply "blamed." I'm not sure how that encounter would have ended up any differently without Jiya's warning. Rufus was held at gunpoint in what (iirc) was an accidental encounter, and did nothing actively to cause the man's death. He, in fact, lowered his weapon.

I agree that the line between causality loops and self-fulling prophecies are interesting. I'm just not sure that's exactly what we saw. Though I could be mis-remembering.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Clanstarling

[benteen]

Good episode.  Flynn with the team was a lot of fun.

Rufus really handled things badly with the way he blamed Jiya for what happened.

Edited April 10, 2018 by benteen

[legaleagle53]

15 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I've always felt their dynamic was more father/daughter than potential lovers (whatever the true relationship might be)

There's documentation and there's DNA. More than a few people have discovered their documented father was no relation to them. We started out with Flynn's trip to the Hindenburg, but I'm a bit fuzzy on whether or not that was his first trip. There's wiggle room, should the showrunners want to go that way.

Indeed. Major or minor, changes are certain.

So how do you account for the fact that Flynn was born a good eight years before Lucy was?

 

2 hours ago, Mrs. DuRona said:

I may have missed something, but what was the significance of San Diego 1980?  

Rittenhouse had someone take a quick trip to that year and place while the time team was in 1941 Hollywood.  It is believed that whatever happened during that short trip to 1980 altered history just enough to prevent Jessica's murder 12 years later, which is why she's alive now.

[Sandman]

I think by the time Rufus's of actual confrontation with Sewall, it was already too late; I think the self-fulfilling part (or the closest thing to that) of the sequence was earlier, when Rufus -- having already decided that Sewall must be the Rittenhouse agent -- confronted him in the village. To the extent that it was Rufus's certainty in his interpretation of what Jiya told him that created the problem, I think he may be more to blame than she; and I agree that at first he does seem angry with her, but I think he calmed down enough by the end of that scene that he didn't seem (to me) to be blaming her. 

I think the show has maybe bitten off more than any show could chew as far as the changes to the timeline go; there seems a fair chance that if, for example, Benjamin Franklin's mother was wiped out of existence, the US itself would be altered so radically that the little merry band of Time Tamperers wouldn't have formed at all. Stories about the cumulative effects of changes in history must present some knotty problems of story construction.

And, by the way, I'm convinced, now that it's been mentioned upthread that Grampa and Awful Emma are now "making history," if you'll pardon the pun. Carol has outlived her usefulness to Boss Rittenhouse -- his use of "Lucy is our problem" now seems telling. Carol clearly cares more about her cause than her own child (and seems always to blame Lucy for her lack of ... vision? Loyalty?). I suppose the remainder of the season will feature the contrast between "the terrorist Flynn" and Carol, Good Soldier and Mother of the Year.

[Mrs. DuRona]

8 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

It is believed that whatever happened during that short trip to 1980 altered history just enough to prevent Jessica's murder 12 years later, which is why she's alive now.

I got that.  They all reacted to that year and place like it held specific significance, not just that they were assuming that was the case.  

[IWantCandy71]

On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 10:20 PM, Manda317 said:

I feel like I am all alone in this forum in that I adore Flynn

I like watching Goran, but I can't adore Flynn because he has cold bloodedly murdered people without enough justification. Of course, so has Wyatt, and some people drink the koolaid that Wyatt has GOOD reasons for blowing people away. That's their choice. Personally the only difference between Wyatt and Flynn that I can see, is that Flynn kills mostly out of hatred for Rittenhouse due to them killing his family, and Wyatt kills for a paycheck. But hey. Different strokes for different folks. We all like who we like, but YEP. They are both murderers. And there's just too much killing on this show-and bizarre nutso justifications for the killings-or no justifications at all-and I cannot continue to watch. I won't-I CAN'T-support a show that is violent for the sake of violence-and this show absolutely is that. But again, different strokes. I won't watch anymore-I didn't watch this episode-but I am not judging anyone who does.

 

But yeah, Flynn is the best character they have. It's a shame it's not a better written show. Goran deserves better.

[IWantCandy71]

21 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Yeah, I didn't get that either. Like it's her fault she's getting visions? And she should just shut up about them?

I really, really want to like this show (and I do enjoy the characters) but the premise is so hopelessly flawed I can never quite invest myself in the story. So this week Rittenhouse wanted to kill Benjamin Franklin's mother, because then he'd never be born and . . . the concept of Freedom of the Press and perhaps Freedom of Speech would never be invented? By anyone? Like, no other person in the world would have ever though of those concepts if Ben Franklin were never born. OK then. I suppose we'd never have electricity, libraries or fire engines either.

There are some really intriguing ideas buried in this formulaic pablum they keep dishing out but the show just doesn't have the ambition to explore them. Think how much more interesting it would have been if Rittenhouse had succeeded, and the Time Team returned to a present where there was never a Ben Franklin. What would the ramifications be? That's where your story is, not this incessant tail chasing after Rittenhouse who, a season and half in, haven't really accomplished anything to speak of.

Exactly-that was my problem with the Marie Curie episode, and it's a problem running through all the episodes. Like, they kill the soldier because he saw a few things, but didn't get rid of Marie Curie who saw a time machine ? Stupid, stupid, stupid. An opportunity to actually have consequences for the future, and they not only waste it, they don't bother to waste it for a good reason. I mean, if you're going to write a dumb plot point, at least make it interesting or make it have consequences. Make it MATTER.

[wanderingstar]

Quote

or Tituba

I was sad about no Tituba. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

So they are just completely bypassing the whole clothing thing? They no longer have access to all those costumes and decide to "wing it" when they get there. Then suddenly, there they are all kitted out in authentic, well fitting clothing, without any explanation. They found it all hanging on a clothes line? They stopped at the Salem "Garments R Us?" And paid with what? Grrr.  That kind of thing just annoys me.

Yeah, that bugs me too. They really had the costuming covered in Season 1 but now it's just inexplicable. It's one thing if they're going back to the 1950s but no way all three of them could simply find 17th century garb just lying about let alone perfectly fitting and suitable garb.

Quote

At least this season they have a sleeper-agent-of-the-week to stop, instead of Flynn being behind every crisis then escaping every damn time. 

What's the difference? Last season it was "We have to stop Flynn!" and this season it's "We have to stop Emma/Sleeper Agent!" They don't seem to serve any purpose other than be reactionary. 

Quote

I don't think they know where the mothership is?

Sure they do. That's how they know where to go every week. I'm not clear on how specific the coordinates Jiya gets are, but they certainly know the general vicinity within, say, a mile or so. There's no reason Rufus couldn't have spent the entire time searching for the Mothership while Lucy and Flynn dealt with the witch trial.

Quote

I noticed when Lucy told Rufus and others that Jessica was alive that Rufus was shocked but Jiya and Denise were like, "why wouldn't she be?" So little things (and even major things) probably are changing but unless it affects the Time Trio directly we don't necessarily hear about it.

That raises an interesting point because if memory serves, the only reason Wyatt wound up on Team Time was because Jessica was dead. It's what motivated him to become a super sniper or whatever he's supposed to be. Presumably, without her death he would have remained an army grunt or whatever he was before. 

On a smarter show they would have returned from the 1940s and Denise, Jiya and Mason would have gone "Who are you?" Wouldn't that have been the ultimate goal of Rittenhouse in restoring Jessica to life? To eliminate Wyatt altogether? Too bad this isn't a smarter show.

[DesertCyclist]

Waiting for the episode in which they change the future in such a way that they can't return to it.

Edited April 10, 2018 by DesertCyclist
grammar

[Clanstarling]

7 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

23 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I've always felt their dynamic was more father/daughter than potential lovers (whatever the true relationship might be)

There's documentation and there's DNA. More than a few people have discovered their documented father was no relation to them. We started out with Flynn's trip to the Hindenburg, but I'm a bit fuzzy on whether or not that was his first trip. There's wiggle room, should the showrunners want to go that way.

Indeed. Major or minor, changes are certain.

So how do you account for the fact that Flynn was born a good eight years before Lucy was?

I don't.

I only stated my take on the dynamic and pointing out that documentation isn't necessarily verification - which is a loophole the showrunners could use in a number of ways.

Last season there were differing opinions on whether they can travel back to a time (but different place) they were alive, or can't travel anywhere on the planet during their lifetime. My take was always the first option. I may have missed it, but I don't remember it ever being unequivocally established in terms that couldn't be understood to mean anything else. And therein lies another loophole, depending on what the showrunners want to do.

[KaveDweller]

10 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

She married Ben's father 3 years prior to the Salem Witch Trials (1692-1693). Ben wasn't born until 1706, so that part tracks. But with seven step-children, and birthing her own children pretty often (total of ten), so she'd have been pretty busy. Not sure protesting would have been on the table.

 

Seven step-children and 10 biological children? Damn.

9 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Rittenhouse had someone take a quick trip to that year and place while the time team was in 1941 Hollywood.  It is believed that whatever happened during that short trip to 1980 altered history just enough to prevent Jessica's murder 12 years later, which is why she's alive now.

32 years before her murder, which presumably means they stopped her killer from being born. Early 80s was where Rufus and Wyatt went when they tried to do the same thing, but that failed since it was apparently the real killer. That suggested Rittenhouse involvement, because someone else had confessed to the crime.

Of course I guess now Rufus and Wyatt never stole the time machine for that mission, which means he never escaped from custody. I forget the other details around that mission, but I feel like that would have a big impact.

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Sure they do. That's how they know where to go every week. I'm not clear on how specific the coordinates Jiya gets are, but they certainly know the general vicinity within, say, a mile or so. There's no reason Rufus couldn't have spent the entire time searching for the Mothership while Lucy and Flynn dealt with the witch trial.

I don't think they know it within a mile. They know a general area and that is enough to figure out the city. They know near Salem means the witch trials so they went to the area where the women were hung to look for the Rittenhouse agents. But it isn't like they have an address.  And it's probably not the best idea for a black man to just roam around the woods by himself in the 1690s.

I don't know why the technology wouldn't be more exact (other than plot device), but they have definitely established that it's not.

Edited April 10, 2018 by KaveDweller

[iMonrey]

We've seen the view screen (?) that Jiya looks at whenever the Mothership lands somewhere in time. It definitely pinpoints a geographical location - not just a "general area." The question is whether or not they are able to pinpoint exactly where the Life Boat will land or whether they are only able to land somewhere within the general vicinity. Clearly, they are always landing close enough to the Mothership to encounter its passengers on every trip they embark on.  Whether it's Las Vegas in the 1960s or Hollywood in the 1940s, obviously they want to land somewhere out of site so nobody finds the ship while they're on a mission, and nobody sees them appearing out of nowhere. It shouldn't be that hard for Team Lucy to find the Mothership, given both ships have the same landing criteria.

[mythoughtis]

15 hours ago, Mrs. DuRona said:

I may have missed something, but what was the significance of San Diego 1980?  

I believe that is when whomever killed Jessica was born. Rittenhouse must have caused that  not to happen.  However, we saw the guy tonight die by wagon minutes after he should have died by rifle... so why didn’t something else take Jessica out anyway? 

[legaleagle53]

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Last season there were differing opinions on whether they can travel back to a time (but different place) they were alive, or can't travel anywhere on the planet during their lifetime. My take was always the first option. I may have missed it, but I don't remember it ever being unequivocally established in terms that couldn't be understood to mean anything else.

Rufus made it very clear in the pilot episode that there is no going back to a time in which you have already existed.  Not time and place in which you have already existed -- time in which you have already existed, and this rule was restated several times during the first season. Had Rufus meant "time and place," he would have expressly said "time and place."  Anthony got around that rule because he, like Emma, had once spent ten years in the past but was actually born much later than his physical age suggested.  Unfortunately, the scene that explained this was deleted in one of the most boneheaded editing decisions in the history of boneheaded editing decisions.

[thuganomics85]

Heh, I always love it when the team's mission ends up causing a massive change, so I got a kick out of how they basically turned the Salem Witch Trials into the Salem Rebellion, and the term "witch hunt" isn't even a thing anymore.  And, as always, I wonder how that effected the pop culture that followed like The Scarlett Letter or The Crucible (I guess the film version now ends with Daniel Day-Lewis and Winona Ryder just wrecking everyone!)

Nothing against Wyatt, who I'm fine with, but Flynn going on the mission was actually kind of fun and refreshing.  Even if I know that Rufus would totally disagree with me on that front.

Jessica is totally going to be a Rittenhouse plant.  That is probably why they saved her, and I will find it unbelievable if that idea doesn't get brought up at least once in future episodes.  I did like that the show avoided some of the normal traps by having Wyatt automatically tell Lucy what happened, and him telling Jessica the truth about time-traveling.  But I'm pretty sure he didn't say anything about his relationship with Lucy, so I'm sure that will come back up for dramatic reasons.

I get where Rufus was going with the self-fulfilling reason, but it was still a dick movie for him to blame Jiya for it, since it is still on him for not just ignoring it, and causing them to go after the guy.  I'll chalk it up to him still being shaken over what went down, but it wasn't a good look on him.

Meanwhile in Rittenhouse world: Keynes tires of Carol failing to get the job done, and has now put Emma in "Taking care of Lucy and the team" territory.  Definitely think this is going to end with Carol turning on the group.

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Rufus made it very clear in the pilot episode that there is no going back to a time in which you have already existed.  Not time and place in which you have already existed -- time in which you have already existed, and this rule was restated several times during the first season. Had Rufus meant "time and place," he would have expressly said "time and place."  Anthony got around that rule because he, like Emma, had once spent ten years in the past but was actually born much later than his physical age suggested.  Unfortunately, the scene that explained this was deleted in one of the most boneheaded editing decisions in the history of boneheaded editing decisions.

Given that the discussion in the forum went on well past the pilot episode, I'm guessing not everyone thought it was that clear. But I'm not going to revive the argument based on a half-a**ed comment on my part.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Clanstarling

[Maximum Taco]

On 4/9/2018 at 6:22 PM, LittleIggy said:

Every time they return to the present, things should be changed due to what they did in the past, IMO. 

I know. I'm getting annoyed this season. 

First season, they tried really hard to preserve history and small things changed because they killed a few largely inconsequential people, or influenced an already impressive person in a way where they were encouraged to either go about their life in the way history dictated they always did, or with a minor change. 

This season they are seriously screwing with the past. Changing major historical events, and largely diverting important peoples lives. 

[wilnil]

1 hour ago, Maximum Taco said:

I know. I'm getting annoyed this season. 

First season, they tried really hard to preserve history and small things changed because they killed a few largely inconsequential people, or influenced an already impressive person in a way where they were encouraged to either go about their life in the way history dictated they always did, or with a minor change. 

This season they are seriously screwing with the past. Changing major historical events, and largely diverting important peoples lives. 

They actually started doing this in the latter part of the first season, when they killed off Gen. Cornwallis and David Rittenhouse and messed with the fate of Benedict Arnold, then later on snuffed Al Capone and Elliot Ness. In none of those cases did anything major change when they got back to the present. After all that, some of us debating in the Paradoxes thread started leaning toward the belief that the show is using an "Elastic" time travel model, i.e., changing the past is possible, but history tends to stay in the same course, so changes only have minor effects unless a time traveler really works hard to make a change. (This model would at least explain why Rittenhouse has such elaborate time travel plans.)

[SyracuseMug]

5 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

First season, they tried really hard to preserve history and small things changed because they killed a few largely inconsequential people, or influenced an already impressive person in a way where they were encouraged to either go about their life in the way history dictated they always did, or with a minor change. 

This season they are seriously screwing with the past. Changing major historical events, and largely diverting important peoples lives. 

In the context of time travel, I believe there’s no such thing as an inconsequential person. We all have two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents, and so on. In 1692-93, when the Salem witch trials took place, the number of direct ancestors who contributed to each of our births would be in the thousands, or tens of thousands. Kill just one of them, and there’s no telling how many people alive today would cease to exist. 

For that matter, you don’t even have to kill the ancestor. Even subtle changes to their lives could alter history. Back in 1996, I logged on to a message board, read a post and responded to it, and couldn’t have imagined that this action was a catalyst for major changes in my life. I’ve also interacted with a lot of people over these last twenty-two years, and those lives were affected as well. If I had been doing anything else at that specific moment in 1996, everything I did thereafter would have unfolded quite differently, and I have no idea where I’d be today. The facets of history are equally intertwined, on a far greater scale. It’s absurd to think that all of the changes to the timeline from our heroes and villains on this show would not have had much more dramatic effects. 

I suppose I’m able to suspend disbelief by accepting the theory that all of our current technology was inevitable, as was the year in which it was invented. If the Wright Brothers were never born, then someone else would have made a first flight in 1903. Without Henry Ford, someone else would have invented the Model T in 1908. Apple and Microsoft would have formed in the mid seventies even without Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. And as far as history goes, Germany would have invaded Poland in 1939 with another leader in charge. The Vietnam War would have been fought in the sixties no matter who was president. And on and on. It’s silly, and very unlikely, yet still possible. Even so, we’re looking at a significant change to the population every time someone interferes with history, then comes back. The number of people (population) in 2018 may stay the same, but many if not all of them will have been replaced by others.

[KaveDweller]

21 hours ago, iMonrey said:

We've seen the view screen (?) that Jiya looks at whenever the Mothership lands somewhere in time. It definitely pinpoints a geographical location - not just a "general area." The question is whether or not they are able to pinpoint exactly where the Life Boat will land or whether they are only able to land somewhere within the general vicinity. Clearly, they are always landing close enough to the Mothership to encounter its passengers on every trip they embark on.  Whether it's Las Vegas in the 1960s or Hollywood in the 1940s, obviously they want to land somewhere out of site so nobody finds the ship while they're on a mission, and nobody sees them appearing out of nowhere. It shouldn't be that hard for Team Lucy to find the Mothership, given both ships have the same landing criteria.

I disagree that it pinpoints a specific location. In this past episode when they show the screen it is a map of the United States with a circle around the general area of Massachusetts, along with text saying the location is Salem, MA.  Salem is 18 square miles (at least it is today). That's not exactly an afternoon of one person roaming around. Now, certainly they only have to look in out of the way places, but in the 1690s that was probably a lot of places.

I'm sure they could find it if they made it their entire focus, but then Rittenhouse would succeed in their destroy the world plan and then who knows what world they would come back to? No Ben Franklin. No Citizen Kane. Juarassic Park getting made in 1941 when special effects were terrible.  I know we talk about not seeing ramifications of what happens, but we have seen some changes they are just only mentioned briefly.

18 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Rufus made it very clear in the pilot episode that there is no going back to a time in which you have already existed.  Not time and place in which you have already existed -- time in which you have already existed, and this rule was restated several times during the first season. Had Rufus meant "time and place," he would have expressly said "time and place."  Anthony got around that rule because he, like Emma, had once spent ten years in the past but was actually born much later than his physical age suggested.  Unfortunately, the scene that explained this was deleted in one of the most boneheaded editing decisions in the history of boneheaded editing decisions.

I don't think he made it clear in the pilot at all.  In that episode Rufus said you couldn't go back to any time where you risked running into a double of yourself.  Adding that qualifier made it seem rather vague about what the actual problem was.  Leading to us debating it quite a bit on this forum. Eventually I think they gave more clarity on the show and or in a writer's interview that it was a time you existed regardless of place, which makes it dumb that he added the part about meeting a double.

And YES about cutting the explanation about Anthony. What were they thinking? But now that you mention Anthony, I can't remember what happened to him? Did he die or get arrested last season?

14 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I did like that the show avoided some of the normal traps by having Wyatt automatically tell Lucy what happened, and him telling Jessica the truth about time-traveling.  But I'm pretty sure he didn't say anything about his relationship with Lucy, so I'm sure that will come back up for dramatic reasons.

Confessing to sex with another woman was not likely to help with the divorce discussion, regardless of Jessica being dead at the time. But yes, that will definitely come back to haunt him.

[legaleagle53]

4 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

And YES about cutting the explanation about Anthony. What were they thinking? But now that you mention Anthony, I can't remember what happened to him? Did he die or get arrested last season?

He died in a bomb blast that was set up by Rittenhouse.

[Maverick]

Flynn killed Anthony.  After discovering Anthony betrayed him to the Time Team, Flynn killed him since he didn't need his piloting skills anymore,(mistakenly) thinking he had recruited Emma to his anti-Rittenhouse campaign.

[KaveDweller]

Thanks for the refreshers on Anthony. It was a long time between seasons.....

[shapeshifter]

On April 9, 2018 at 12:08 PM, iMonrey said:

Like it's her fault she's getting visions? And she should just shut up about them?

Yeah, Rufus was being a bad boyfriend, but not an unrealistic human, and:

On April 9, 2018 at 11:07 PM, possibilities said:

They ought to be analyzing her info and trying to understand what's happening, not just trying to ignore it

Yes^^, I hope they do. This is some creative time travel story telling with:

ON APRIL 10, 2018 AT 8:29 AM, CLANSTARLING SAID:

 the line between causality loops and self-fulling prophecies are interesting. 

Also:

On April 10, 2018 at 1:43 AM, tennisgurl said:

do think the love triangle is kind of interesting. For a love triangle anyway.

this is the first love triangle writing I have ever not hated, and I am old.

The show deserves to be renewed now, but it's probably too little too late.

Like about the wardrobe this episode: Given that Flynn is a giant by height norms of the 1600s, they could/should have outfitted him with sleeves and pants 6 inches too short and maybe drawn attention to it with a remark from another character.

[Cranberry]

There are definitely still plot holes, but I enjoy what they're doing with time this year. The "we must preserve history!" thing, while probably the smartest course of action, was not as much fun as Lucy's "screw it" approach this season. I also find it interesting that Jiya's vision was what caused Rufus to fixate on a specific man, which in turn caused that man to confront Rufus, which ended up getting him killed at the same time as in the initial vision, but a different way. Are some things simply destined to happen? The show didn't really play around with these kinds of questions enough in season one, so I'm liking it.

I don't ship (or not ship) anyone with anyone else on this show, so whatever happens there is fine by me. I'm in this for the historical hijinks.

[possibilities]

22 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

The show deserves to be renewed now, but it's probably too little too late.

I'm seeing a LOT of ads for it on NBC, so someone there seems to want it to succeed. If they had totally given up, they wouldn't bother to promote it. But I do agree the ratings make the prospects look bleak.

[dargosmydaddy]

On 4/9/2018 at 1:08 PM, iMonrey said:

I really, really want to like this show (and I do enjoy the characters) but the premise is so hopelessly flawed I can never quite invest myself in the story. So this week Rittenhouse wanted to kill Benjamin Franklin's mother, because then he'd never be born and . . . the concept of Freedom of the Press and perhaps Freedom of Speech would never be invented? By anyone? Like, no other person in the world would have ever though of those concepts if Ben Franklin were never born. OK then. I suppose we'd never have electricity, libraries or fire engines either.

Lucy was the one who voiced these worries (about there being no Ben Franklin). I think Lucy's mom more or less said, in the jail scene, that accusing Abiah was solely for the purpose of getting to Lucy, not because Rittenhouse specifically wanted to eliminate Ben Franklin.

[legaleagle53]

22 minutes ago, dargosmydaddy said:

Lucy was the one who voiced these worries (about there being no Ben Franklin). I think Lucy's mom more or less said, in the jail scene, that accusing Abiah was solely for the purpose of getting to Lucy, not because Rittenhouse specifically wanted to eliminate Ben Franklin.

Yes, but what would Carol think would happen if all of the other accused women (including Abiah) ended up being hanged as history decreed that they were, even if Lucy herself escaped?  Carol even said that she believed it would be better if Benjamin never existed.

[dargosmydaddy]

Yes, but I think there's a difference between Carol thinking it's a nice side benefit that Ben Franklin never existed (which I'm sure it would be, for Rittenhouse, as I imagine there would be a large ripple effect), and setting out to purposely erase him because you believe that it will totally eliminate many freedoms (and electricity, and libraries, and fire engines...:)), which was IMONREY's initial complaint.

[bros402]

I would really like if they renewed this for a third season, but made it a summer show. With these kind of ratings, it'd be nice and comfy in summer.

[Manda317]

3 hours ago, bros402 said:

I would really like if they renewed this for a third season, but made it a summer show. With these kind of ratings, it'd be nice and comfy in summer.

I wish they would renew and make it a normal show with a full season lol, but I doubt that will happen. I would be perfectly satisfied if it was renewed for next summer, because at least there would be more episodes, but I would be sad because I would have to wait another year before anything new aired. Of course, they could renew it for this summer lol ;)

[BooBear]

On 4/9/2018 at 6:27 PM, Clanstarling said:

I've always felt their dynamic was more father/daughter than potential lovers (whatever the true relationship might be)

I definitely get that vibe right now. It is more of a mentoring type thing. He respects her and she doesn't think he is all bad. That could change in the future but I kind of hope it doesn't. 

I enjoyed this episode I was pleasantly surprised they didn't take the soap route of Wyatt not telling Lucy about Jessica and not telling Jessica about what happened.  Even assuming that Jessica is an agent for Rittenhouse, I am not sure what it matters.  They know the time team is still out there and they know they still have the life boat.  To the extent Jessica is a Rittenhouse plant it could be as simple as they wanted to drive a wedge between the team so the Lucy would move on and join Rittenhouse. 

My biggest history hand wave here is that people didn't talk like we do now at that time in history and I know it had to be done for the show but it irked me that they didn't even try to have the characters talk in a way that was more organic to the time period. 

Edited April 15, 2018 by BooBear

[bros402]

21 hours ago, Manda317 said:

I wish they would renew and make it a normal show with a full season lol, but I doubt that will happen. I would be perfectly satisfied if it was renewed for next summer, because at least there would be more episodes, but I would be sad because I would have to wait another year before anything new aired. Of course, they could renew it for this summer lol ;)

I would prefer the same, but if making it a summer show gives it a longer lifespan, I am for that

[Sandman]

On 4/10/2018 at 12:57 AM, Dowel Jones said:

... or maybe even a herd of mutant zebras from Zoo. 

Crossover fever!

[Trillian]

On 2018-04-15 at 9:09 AM, BooBear said:

My biggest history hand wave here is that people didn't talk like we do now at that time in history and I know it had to be done for the show but it irked me that they didn't even try to have the characters talk in a way that was more organic to the time period. 

Yes. Thank you. That was one of my peeves about the episode, too. The team should have had a hard time understanding and speaking 17th century English.  It wasn’t Shakespearean anymore, but it sure wasn’t modern English.  Other related peeve:  the women were all too modern in their attitude. They all acted like 20th/21st century women, who do not believe in witches and who do believe they are the equal of men, just plopped into a 17th century plot. Back in grad school, I did some research on the witch trials in England in roughly the same period.   The people who didn’t confess defended themselves on the basis that the inquisitor got the wrong person and not on the basis that witchcraft isn’t real and that the accusation was bogus.  That was part of how accusations spread - if the cow died mysteriously, it wasn’t me; must’ve been the neighbour. Everyone was way too modern in attitude as well as speech. I don’t expect a documentary, but try for a touch of historical realism.

The other problem I had with the episode is totally frivolous.  I kept thinking about the Bewitched episode when Sam and Darren end up in Salem and Darren was accused of witchcraft and Samantha had to save him by using real witchcraft.  Now *that* was a good episode! 

[bros402]

6 hours ago, Trillian said:

Yes. Thank you. That was one of my peeves about the episode, too. The team should have had a hard time understanding and speaking 17th century English.  It wasn’t Shakespearean anymore, but it sure wasn’t modern English.  Other related peeve:  the women were all too modern in their attitude. They all acted like 20th/21st century women, who do not believe in witches and who do believe they are the equal of men, just plopped into a 17th century plot. Back in grad school, I did some research on the witch trials in England in roughly the same period.   The people who didn’t confess defended themselves on the basis that the inquisitor got the wrong person and not on the basis that witchcraft isn’t real and that the accusation was bogus.  That was part of how accusations spread - if the cow died mysteriously, it wasn’t me; must’ve been the neighbour. Everyone was way too modern in attitude as well as speech. I don’t expect a documentary, but try for a touch of historical realism.

The other problem I had with the episode is totally frivolous.  I kept thinking about the Bewitched episode when Sam and Darren end up in Salem and Darren was accused of witchcraft and Samantha had to save him by using real witchcraft.  Now *that* was a good episode! 

Yeah, I took a course on Witchcraft in the Western World in college and this episode bugged me.

 

At least they didn't try to see if a witch floats (That was made up by Ben Franklin and spread like wildfire, especially in Europe).

[legaleagle53]

On 4/16/2018 at 11:38 PM, bros402 said:

Yeah, I took a course on Witchcraft in the Western World in college and this episode bugged me.

 

At least they didn't try to see if a witch floats (That was made up by Ben Franklin and spread like wildfire, especially in Europe).

On the other hand, one thing that they DID get right was the fact that accused witches were never burned at the stake in the Colonies.  That was strictly a European method of execution, and only on the continent at that.  Britain hanged accused witches just as the Colonies did.

 

On 4/16/2018 at 5:28 PM, Trillian said:

Yes. Thank you. That was one of my peeves about the episode, too. The team should have had a hard time understanding and speaking 17th century English.  It wasn’t Shakespearean anymore, but it sure wasn’t modern English.  Other related peeve:  the women were all too modern in their attitude. They all acted like 20th/21st century women, who do not believe in witches and who do believe they are the equal of men, just plopped into a 17th century plot. Back in grad school, I did some research on the witch trials in England in roughly the same period.   The people who didn’t confess defended themselves on the basis that the inquisitor got the wrong person and not on the basis that witchcraft isn’t real and that the accusation was bogus.  That was part of how accusations spread - if the cow died mysteriously, it wasn’t me; must’ve been the neighbour. Everyone was way too modern in attitude as well as speech. I don’t expect a documentary, but try for a touch of historical realism.

The other problem I had with the episode is totally frivolous.  I kept thinking about the Bewitched episode when Sam and Darren end up in Salem and Darren was accused of witchcraft and Samantha had to save him by using real witchcraft.  Now *that* was a good episode! 

Ditto regarding 17th-Century English and the excessively modern attitudes of the women.  And an even better Bewitched episode than the one you're referring to (which is the one where Aunt Clara accidentally sends everyone back to Old Plymouth) is the one where Esmeralda accidentally sends Samantha back to Old Salem and Darrin has to go back to rescue her by first restoring her memory and her powers. Once she regains both, she acquits not only herself and Darrin of the charges of witchcraft but also all of the others accused of witchcraft by showing them what a REAL witch can do and why they could never have captured a REAL witch -- much less executed one -- unless the witch WANTED to be captured and executed. The scene where she lets loose with her powers in the courtroom (as Darrin watches in amusement) is one of my favorites.

But this episode was actually good as far as what it DID get right, though.  There's a reason that Rotten Tomatoes keeps certifying the show as "100% fresh"!

Edited April 19, 2018 by legaleagle53

[bros402]

17 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

On the other hand, one thing that they DID get right was the fact that accused witches were never burned at the stake in the Colonies.  That was strictly a European method of execution, and only on the continent at that.  Britain hanged accused witches just as the Colonies did.

I liked that they didn't try to burn the witches.

It'd be funny if they just went to some totally random historical event in some episode that only historians would know about, like the trial of Tempel Anneke.

[Clanstarling]

6 hours ago, bros402 said:

I liked that they didn't try to burn the witches.

It'd be funny if they just went to some totally random historical event in some episode that only historians would know about, like the trial of Tempel Anneke.

Not a paid shill, but you might like Jodi Taylor's books about time traveling historians.

[Camera One]

I've fallen behind a bit, so I just watched this episode.

It was alright.  It didn't seem to delve into the time period as much.  I'm not usually a fan of Flynn's methods, but those people making those false accusations sort of deserved what they got and it was nice to see the accused women escape.  But at the same time, this episode highlighted how cavalier they are about changing history.  Between saving people and Flynn shooting people, there must have been a ton of ripple effects.  It does bother me that the show doesn't give much thought to that.

Carol's plan to get Lucy accused of being a witch seemed ridiculously convoluted.  

I wasn't too interested in the Wyatt/Jessica stuff.  Ultimately, would she be happy throwing away her life to live in a bunker?  Or was she going to go back to her bar after all this?

I was surprised Rufus blamed Jiya for what happened.