S06.E01: Dead Hand

[DoubleUTeeEff]

11 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

I don't know how the show will end but it definitely won't be with Philip (or anyone) living the All-American suburban dream life. 

Not even Henry? Or Aderholt?

3 hours ago, benteen said:

Paige's disguise was terrible and I can't see security bro wanting to pick her up with her with those awful glasses and hat.

Never underestimate how frequently young attractive enough women are hit on no matter how they are dressed. I was routinely hit on while wearing a fast food uniform including hat when I was young.

[shura]

1 hour ago, halopub said:

I have to rewatch but I thought the cyanide pill was if she was about to be caught by pro-Gorbachev, pro-perestroika factions in the potential assassination plot. So if Dead Hand and its tech got floated in dealmaking, Elizabeth would inform the general, trigger the assassination and then have to conceal her own knowledge of both the program and the plot.

In case the assassination attempt is unsuccessful and she must protect the general and his anti-Gorbachev side? Gotcha, yes, that makes more sense. Because it really makes no sense to conceal the existence of Dead Hand from the adversary, it's only useful as a deterrent. I mean, what good does it do to the Soviet leadership if it is deployed in complete surprise after this leadership is all dead?  I wonder how one gets funding to develop Dead Hand, considering that people signing off on it will never have a chance to see if it actually works.

[SunnyBeBe]

52 minutes ago, misstwpherecool said:

Philip and Oleg agents out of retirement on a 'special' assignment sort of cliche. Stan about to be pulled back into the game.

What would be a final season with a murder from everyone's favorite sociopath. Apparently a conflicted one. Although a sloppy murder probably much closer to how one with a knife killing would go. (Did she leave the knife in his neck I forget?)

First generation car/mobile phone and line dancing-eeek, the 80s.

Some are wondering who will live and die. I'm wondering who will flip and/or defect

So that's what that was! OMG.  I couldn't figure it out.  I had one, but, it was later on and it looked quite different. 

[DoubleUTeeEff]

5 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Regardless of who makes the decision to train Paige, I don't think that it makes sense for her mother to train her. The other woman in the car with Elizabeth expressed concern about Paige's "readiness." Would Elizabeth have killed the aggressive navy guy if her daughter had not been involved? Would she have reprimanded her protege for losing the ID card rather than say "its OK" if the protege had been someone other than her daughter?

I don't think it makes sense either. I don't think she would have killed the guy if it were her daughter. But I do she would have told her it was "OK." I just think with a different person she would have made the spy in training show up on Saturday and get her ID back. I don't think there was a pressing need to do it that night was there? 

[misstwpherecool]

Will the drawing from the wife of the negotiator of Elizabeth sleeping wind up in an investigation from a raid, show up in a flea market or was it symbolism just to reinforce Elizabeth is tired.

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

And Paige didn't really goof up. She kept her cool and gave the guy a fake everything, and no one expects a teenager to get it 100% right on the first try. 

I think she did screw up. She let the guy walk away with her ID. If nobody expects a teenager to get it right the first time, don't have a teenager around at all. Isn't that the thing, that they don't have that much room for error? Plenty of girls might have said something like, "Hey, I need my student ID for my meal plan and to get into my dorm and the library. I'm not going out with you if you take it."

Even if Elizabeth killed the guy out of over-protectiveness of Paige as her mom (and I'm not sure that's even true--the biggest danger of the guy having Paige's ID is to Paige the would-be spy), it's a no-brainer that handing a picture of yourself to the military security guard and letting him keep it is on the list of things not to do.

11 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

As for Paige the show has been pretty clear she had been heavily propagandized about the USSR, coupled with the typical ignorance of any American kid, even a smart and politically astute one like Paige.

Paige's attitude isn't typical ignorance of an American kid, especially a politically astute one. American kids were really not that open to the idea that the USSR was a symbol of liberal progressive values in 1987. 

10 hours ago, skippylou said:

The marriage is over for all practical purposes.  I wonder if Henry got to go to that elite school?  The writers appear to be doing much better this year than last.  Nevertheless, it is depressing and I don't foresee a happy ending.  

Yes, Henry was at the school in the episode. Philip doesn't seem to consider the marriage over. Also, as nasty as Elizabeth was, she was nasty to him because he's still literally the only person she really has in her life. Claudia's her handler who puts the cause first. Her relationship with Paige is also all about the glorious cause. Philip is the only person in the episode who sees what's going on with her and cares about her as a person instead of a Soviet hero. He's therefore also the only person she take out her real feelings on. Everyone else gets the mask. Her only real emotional scenes are with Philip. With everybody else she's just doing and saying what she has to do and say for the job.

9 hours ago, NitneLiun said:

Good point. The original idea of having second generation illegals was to place them in organizations like the military, State Dept., CIA, etc and establish careers in those organizations. It was a long play. Having Paige do espionage grunt work is more likely to lead to her discovery and arrest -- definitely not a long play.

That is still the idea. One other thing about Paige being 2nd gen illegal is she's not some new recruit following orders. She's the princess hanging out getting special attention from Claudia and Elizabeth and is really important. I wouldn't be surprised if she isn't able to sit around and get good grades and get a boring job and keep her head down, which is where her value lies. She'll probably start trying to spy on people just like she did with Matthew.

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That was an incredibly stupid killing -- windows everywhere.  And cross streets behind her.  Plus, she had to rifle through his pockets to get the ID back.  It is not like she stabbed him and kept walking.  Having Paige in the field may push Elizabeth into more risky behavior.  

And an important person as well. That killing ought to be in the newspapers--though I wouldn't put it past Paige to miss it even in that case. Elizabeth not only committed a sloppy murder she lied to Paige about the consequences of the encounter.

Quote

The dialog in Mexico was extremely funny. Keri Russell obviously doesn't care about speaking Russian, so basically she said "yes" (da) three times and "no" (njet) once (the translation was more elaborated though.) Basically, it reminded me of this:

It was great how they'd have her listen very intensely, making me tense up for whether she was going to try to say something or not and then she'd say...da. And I'd relax. 

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Random Q: Does anyone else agree that the music playing during the Elizabeth/operative Russian-speaking (or Russian-subtitled anyway!) sequence was, literally, too LOUD? It's not a complaint - just an observation. Seemed a bit too prominent. Or maybe my ears are just wonky!

That was intentional. It was like the guy was talking about we were getting the info so we'd know about it but Elizabeth was overwhelmed and going numb, so the guy's voice faded away. It's like in a scene where somebody's being told they have cancer and the doctor's voice gets muffled. That's why Elizabeth looks dazed.

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When Elizabeth is in the sick lady's room, she stares at the artwork. Are these all of Elizabeth? Do any identify her? Will they go on display when the woman dies?  Makes me nervous. 

They couldn't all be Elizabeth. Not sure they'd be any more help than the FBI pictures of her, the ones that are.

 

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But flip the genders, and people cheer for the husband and hate the wife, still.

 

True, but tbf, there were plenty of times where he was producing far more results than Elizabeth as an agent and he always shows up to back her up when she asks. Plenty of people cheer for Elizabeth--she gets to be the badass. Even when they do panels there seems to be mostly praise of how awesome Elizabeth is. And the show skipped the part where Philip was retired and picked up when he got the job to save the world he's obviously going to take. Another way gender plays into it is it's not a white male power fantasy like BB and MM.

 

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I don't like the redone travel agency only because they went way too far.  It was a very small, fairly dark office with about 3 employees and now it's huge, bright and modern with several employees.   

That's because it's expanded. It's supposed to be hugely successful now that Philip's throwing himself into it.

I realized that comparing Paige to Elizabeth, first there's the fact that Elizabeth's obviously got more of an excuse to believe what she does. It was drilled into her from all sides growing up and it's hard to ever completely reject that sort of thing. Plus, she lived with actual fear of doubting it where she was growing up. 

But more importantly, with Elizabeth they have I think well-established that yes, she's this total hardliner and true believer who still has the same knee-jerk reactions as she did in S1 (She scoffs at the US acting as if the USSR are the ones trying to sabotage the summit while she's working to sabotage the summit on behalf of the USSR). But she also just as clearly has this other person inside her, one who longs for an actual connection to someone and who's drawn to something more compassionate. That's all personified in Philip. He's far from perfect, but the fact that she chose this guy with his doubts and compassion/understanding for the enemy and his ability to throw off indoctrination and his care for her as a person is a huge tell. Right now she seems terrified of those exact qualities in him. She can't look at him or talk to him because she knows he has a clue and is probably afraid of how much sense he's starting to make to her. 

Paige shares Elizabeth's desire to be Right and saving the world, but her attraction to the idea has always been in personal terms, since she didn't grow up like Elizabeth did. It's more that she's just only confident that way--she used to lecture when she was in the church as well. But there's been no real storylines that build up the other side the way they have with Elizabeth. At least none that I've noticed. 

I like how they've set up a different conflict that's not US vs. USSR but people who can adapt, change and trust to make a better world vs. those who want things the same. They'll be those on both sides, each justifying their sabotage with the idea the other side is doing it already. On Twitter Costa Ronin Tweeted a quote that was something like, "If you don't fit in the world, you were born to create a new one." These guys are scared and they're not sure they're doing the right thing, but they mostly seem honestly motivated by not wanting their children to have the same problems in the world that they had to grow up with. Elizabeth and Claudia are literally all about the opposite. 

[Dev F]

25 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

I thought he was still in the city where Henry's school was and just hanging around before time to leave the next day. I thought I saw the lady who was at the hockey game there, not employees.

No, it was definitely a work trip. The guy who had to be pestered into dancing was their longtime employee Stavos.

[misstwpherecool]

3 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So that's what that was! OMG.  I couldn't figure it out.  I had one, but, it was later on and it looked quite different. 

I remember them. I had a job that put us on the road and if you were issued one or given the vehicle with one in it you had better bring/get it back by day's end. You would think they issued you a bar of gold to carry around. I remember a lot of dropped calls as well.  Before you knew it beepers and battery powered mobile phones became cheap enough for large deployments and public.

One of things is that along with new office having a car phone back then would be status is many circles. A capitalist tool. Philip is dressing and acting like a banker or something. I don't think Philip is necessarily retired. Maybe the center has him working in different social circles for something else. Or Philip used trade craft to get money for his/their life.

[jjj]

6 hours ago, GussieK said:

We still don't know if Stan's girlfriend is a spy!  

I am still so convinced she will rip off her face and become SuperOlga one day.  I noted that she was trying to get information from Mrs./Ms. Aderholt in the guise of acting supportive.  

[BW Manilowe]

13 hours ago, WritinMan said:

Yeah, I thought that was odd too. Perhaps they will explain it later. I wonder if they let him go in exchange for them getting Paige.

And for that matter explain why Paige is one of them. As I recall, when we last saw her, she was seriously conflicted about all this.

Considering they did a 3-year time jump between last season & this, I'm assuming she became less conflicted & more committed offscreen.

[rhys]

Omg, yes the loudness of the music! So distracting & unnecessary. Took me right out of this episode a couple of times. Yikes. No reason for that, show. We don't need to run down the volume control. It ain't cool nor edgy.

I thought all the art was Elizabeth too. Shows how much I see, heh.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's Previously.TV's EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP of the episode!

The Americans Prepare For A Summit By Spying Harder Than Ever

Philip gets out, but will Directorate S pull him back in with his most challenging assignment yet? We take you through the Season 6 premiere in this EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP!

[skotnikov]

1 hour ago, misstwpherecool said:

Will the drawing from the wife of the negotiator of Elizabeth sleeping wind up in an investigation from a raid, show up in a flea market or was it symbolism just to reinforce Elizabeth is tired.

I bet this drawing will cause their downfall. 

[SusanSunflower]

The pictures (and Elizabeth's interest in them) may represent Elizabeth's growing isolation and paranoia ... 

I took the cyanide pendant and warning that she could not be arrested less as "here's a handy way out" as a threat that "if this mission is blown, you will not be allowed to survive" ... there will be no spy-swap or espionage trial.  Beyond the usual "mission impossible" disawoval, that she was expected to remove herself as a "problem" or "collateral damage" ... 

This then made her reckless almost-public killing of the security guard even closer to a death wish ...  I wonder if the security guard additionally jotted down Paige's name and license plates or radioed in that same info  (in that oh-so-bad neighborhood) ...

Paige carrying false ID that would fail even the slightest data-base scrutiny seems like really bad spycraft 101 ...  One can need to show identification for many reasons in many settings -- a traffic ticket or as a witness of something utterly peripheral or simply suspicious loitering  (as happened).  Why would Paige Jennings be taking courses and earning a degree under a pseud? In fact, a spycraft identity should probably direct attention away from her actual college, etc. etc.   

Yuppers -- I think Elizabeth killed the guard as a function of inappropriate paranoia ... (protecting her baby) 

eta: In response to the above, if Philip had mentioned what he knew, Elizabeth would have to consider him an enemy ... since for her to divulge anything about her mission functionally carries a death penalty if leaked.   "If I told you, I'd have to kill you." 

Edited March 29, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[WritinMan]

47 minutes ago, BW Manilowe said:

Considering they did a 3-year time jump between last season & this, I'm assuming she became less conflicted & more committed offscreen.

They're going to have to better than just letting us assume. It's a significant character change.

[BW Manilowe]

2 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

Aren’t embassies usually in really nice areas?

I think a lot of the ones in DC are actually near the Smithsonian National Zoo, which I think is also near Rock Creek Park (as I remember, that's where they found the body of that missing Congressional intern, Chandra Levy). I suck at geography though. My brother lives in the Virginia suburbs of DC, near Reagan National Airport. As I remember, we did pass a lot of embassies (& maybe some consulates), & I think Hillary Clinton's DC house from while she was Secretary of State, & maybe also a US Senator from NY, on the way to the National Zoo to see the pandas (I think pre any of their cubs) when we visited my brother. I think the guidebooks called that area "Embassy Row" because so many are located there. As I remember, it was an OK area; maybe a little sketchier the closer you got to Rock Creek Park.

[Umbelina]

They had a whole season to make this time jump less jarring.  Since they didn't do it then, I really doubt they will do it now.

[Erin9]

One thing that really fascinates me is that Philip chose to show up and meet Oleg at all. He could have ignored the whole thing. So- why did he? Curiosity? Sense of duty? Patriotism? An understanding that it must be big if someone is asking to meet him now? 

Oleg presented a very persuasive argument to Philip. That Philip didn’t shut him down immediately is telling. He really listened. Oleg, Arkady and Philip are a lot alike. It is interesting. I loved the passion and commitment that Oleg and Arkady have for seeing a better Russia, a better world. And Philip shares that too. He doesn’t talk much about the Motherland, but what he has said shows a deep desire for a better life for his people. A better standard of living in particular. And a more peaceful world. Arkady read his file very well and chose wisely imo. 

[Erin9]

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

They had a whole season to make this time jump less jarring.  Since they didn't do it then, I really doubt they will do it now.

The only thing that was really jarring to me is Paige’s all out embrace of the USSR and spying. I know she latches onto causes, likes to feel like she’s doing something important. She liked some of the ideals of communism. IIRC- the ending of last season showed her setting aside some of her fears. Still seems like a bit of a leap though.

I’m much younger than Paige was in the 1980s. But I don’t remember anyone in the US having fond feelings for the USSR aka evil empire. I would think her indoctrination just as having lived here would be a heavy mistrust of the country. Not an embrace of it. 

[NitneLiun]

9 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

One thing that really fascinates me is that Philip chose to show up and meet Oleg at all. He could have ignored the whole thing. So- why did he? Curiosity? Sense of duty? Patriotism? An understanding that it must be big if someone is asking to meet him now? 

 

I think the last question is more to the point. Also, he was probably thinking that there might be serious repercussions if he ignored the signal.  As a former KGB officer who has essentially left the KGB and still lives in the U.S., he probably feels like a vulnerable potential target of both the U.S. and Soviet Union.

[BW Manilowe]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

What was particularly annoying was everyone acting like there is no way Stan or even Phillip can keep up with pontificating strong will scholar Paige...she is just too awesome!

Really, if this chick can not even handle an asshole hitting on her...how the hell is she going to be any use to them?  This type of jerk is really small potatoes in the world of espionage. 

Also, they are using "she is young" as an excuse for her stupidity, but she is older than her parents when they were recruited.

 

They really dropped the ball on this aspect of their relationship. The fantastic actors bring humanity to the role that the writing last year did not. E is just a super robot spy who only lives for the cause and P just lives for his love of E. It is pretty simplistic, but maybe the writing will bring us up to par on this season.

Even though E is a main character, the writers always take more care with P. In the pilot, he is the great protector, stabbing the guy who was creeping on his daughter and killing the man who raped his wife. He has come off as along suffering hero from the beginning who puts other's needs ahead of his own, while E just only thinks of herself and her cause.

The writers can be a little clumsy with the female characters. Their biggest triumph writing-wise was Martha.

I mean look at the difference between Gabriel and Martha. Gabriel was so nuanced that he was the kindly grandfather that everyone loves. Claudia is just a manipulative out of touch old bitch that no one likes.

FYI... At the end of the post, you said, "look at the difference between Gabriel and Martha," then you described the differences between Gabriel & Claudia (whom I suspect you were referring to all along, instead of Martha). Just thought you might wanna fix that.

[sistermagpie]

23 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I’m much younger than Paige was in the 1980s. But I don’t remember anyone in the US having fond feelings for the USSR aka evil empire. I would think her indoctrination just as having lived here would be a heavy mistrust of the country. Not an embrace of it. 

Yup. Speaking from my own memories it just seems very off. Not even because I remember people I interacted with, at least, seeing the USSR as some great evil entity, but because it almost seems...dated? Sure there might be reasons why an individual might find themselves in a situation where they thought they should give information to the Soviets for whatever reason, but signing on to the USSR as a moral choice as a US teenager? My reaction is just...what? It's not like there's some logical connection between having liberal views or being critical of the US and...this. At the very least I imagine you'd see helping the Soviets as a lateral move, one superpower vs. another.

I mean, look at Pastor Tim. He seemed sympathetic to the Sanctuary movement. He obviously didn't have a Red Scare attitude about Communist countries. But there was no connection between him and Russia or Russian spies. His description of the treatment of Jews in the country was strange (he connected to an anti-religion bias rather than anti-Semitism) but he wasn't open to anything they might be selling. 

[SusanSunflower]

yes, the Russian Refuseniks and Solzhenitsyn's best sellers (and as someone pointed out Chernobyl and that apparent coverup) made it very hard to find "nice things to say" or even maintain past-justifications for the abuses and hardships.  Crop failures stop being "acts-of-god" when they are revealed to be the result of incompetent management and corrupt practices become widely suspected.  Like famines that are about problems with food distribution rather than actual food scarcity.   There was a lot to give pause even to folks sympathetic to the real struggles of wrenching the underdeveloped USSR into the 20th century (see also China) 

Edited March 29, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Ina123]

The security guard wasn't even a policeman and asked for TWO identifications. I would have called BS and said I didn't have another.

[SunnyBeBe]

1 hour ago, Tara Ariano said:

In case you missed it, here's Previously.TV's EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP of the episode!

The Americans Prepare For A Summit By Spying Harder Than Ever

Philip gets out, but will Directorate S pull him back in with his most challenging assignment yet? We take you through the Season 6 premiere in this EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP!

Was it common for 2 men to sit together in park at night back then, in that area?  IDK, I suppose it could have been a good cover. 

[scowl]

We had to wait almost an hour before P or E murdered someone in public. I was worried this season was going to be different.

[sistermagpie]

Just now, SunnyBeBe said:

Was it common for 2 men to sit together in park at night back then, in that area?  IDK, I suppose it could have been a good cover. 

I feel like that's almost a running joke now to say that two people sitting side by side on a bunch is the most suspicious thing you could see in a park. You'd look at them and assume they were two spies. Like it would look frankly less suspicious if you sat next to each other as if you were two friends talking. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Oh, I meant that maybe they were there as more than friends. I don't think that things were as open back then. 

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Oh, I meant that maybe they were there as more than friends. I don't think that things were as open back then. 

Yes, cruising does see like the only other innocent explanation. It'd be funny if they got picked up for that.

[NitneLiun]

31 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Oh, I meant that maybe they were there as more than friends. I don't think that things were as open back then. 

Honestly, cruising in parks has been around as long as parks.  

I can remember seeing such things in the 70s at a park near my grandmother's house in south St. Louis.  I didn't know it was cruising then, as I was a child, but later it became pretty clear to me.

I even encountered a couple of "free candy" guys there when I was a tween/teen. 

[SusanSunflower]

Depends on the city, depends on the park ... but yes, the gay community had designated hookup park bathrooms when I was a kid in Los Angeles (where famous stars sometimes got arrested).  The culture of park use in the big city is different.  Residential areas where I grew up had parks filled with people with children in the day time, sometimes had picnickers at dusk in warm weather, but were deserted except for transients at night, except probably for an insomniac dog owner.   However, the big city is not the suburbs where folks can get some fresh air and sunshine in their backyard or easily find uncrowded peace-and-quiet or take a private time-out walk to cool down.  In high density cities that never sleep, there are shift workers traveling to and from work, catching a bite to eat or an end of shift drink.  There are also joggers and insomniacs and dog walkers.  In Santa Monica where I grew up the Palisade Park was chock-a-block with pensioners getting the sun and older folks taking exercise and/or walking the dog (the area has/had a lot of fairly high-rise residential buildings and so was high-density unlike my low-density low-rent Ocean Park neighborhood where parks hosted baseball diamonds and uninvitingly mangy grassy areas and were often empty when not in use for "practices."  

[J-Man]

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First generation car/mobile phone ...

Well, let's call it Generation 1.5. After all, Perry Mason and Paul Drake had car phones 25 years earlier.

So when Paige described the security guard to Elizabeth, she told her his name tag said "Hadley" (and this was also in the closed-captioning.) But we had seen his name tag, and it said "Hanley." So when Elizabeth approached him, I think she may have hesitated a bit when she saw his name tag. I wonder if this will ever be mentioned, or used as an example of Paige's lack of attention to detail? (Or could it have just been an unintended error?)

So if Philip is well and truly "out," why would he even be looking for Oleg's signal? And why would he bother to respond to it? Why would he even assume it was meant for him? Do we know how long he's been out?

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Although I chuckle to think of that area referred to as a 'bad neighborhood.'

Well, the murder rate went up in this episode.

Is this the first season (or at least the first in recent memory) where Margo Martindale has been credited as a regular?

[BingeyKohan]

2 hours ago, skotnikov said:

I bet this drawing will cause their downfall. 

I hadn't thought of this - I suppose I was only thinking Elizabeth would see herself abstractly in the work rather than the threat that someone else could see her literally in it. If so, seems key that she was actually sleeping on the job (from being overworked and spread too thin) when she allowed herself to be drawn. But how much contrivance would it take for Stan to see the sketch and have it remind him of sketches he has of a similar looking woman wearing similar glasses...

[OoogleEyes]

Phillip looked so relaxed and happy......

......he's going to die, isn't he?

[walnutqueen]

Blech, blech, blech, Paige, Paige, Paige.  She's ruined the series for me like no amount of having to read Russian subtitles ever could.  I've always despised her; now more than ever.

I feel so fucking sad for Elizabeth and Phillip.

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, J-Man said:

So if Philip is well and truly "out," why would he even be looking for Oleg's signal? And why would he bother to respond to it? Why would he even assume it was meant for him? Do we know how long he's been out?

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I don't think he was looking for it. He just still is in the habit of checking out his surroundings and he probably checked that mailbox every day for years. So he notices it. He's been out since sometime in 1984 or early 85 maybe.

12 minutes ago, J-Man said:

Is this the first season (or at least the first in recent memory) where Margo Martindale has been credited as a regular?

I think so. Is she in a different Emmy category now to win?

I was talking to somebody about Elizabeth's Russian scene (Da. Da. Da. Nyet. Da.) and how it was good that it was in Russian because of course that guy would speak Russian and not English. But also it shows how unofficial it is--she's usually not allowed to speak Russian but the rules go out because they're circumventing the normal channels to go behind the Centre's back, just like Oleg is. 

Also while it's good for KR to not have to try to speak Russian it makes sense that Elizabeth, as a character, is not asking questions. She's just accepting her orders and agreeing to them. With Oleg Philip challenges him and refuses a bit. Which makes Oleg explain why it's important and say to him that now he has to make a hard choice.

Iow, Elizabeth's accepting an order. Philip's making a choice. Which will prove to be stronger? Elizabeth's thing of considering orders to be out of her control so she's just a tool and not responsible for what she does? Or Philip thinking through why he's doing something and doing it, taking responsibility for it. Is it easier to be able to remind yourself that you have thought this through or is it easier to just pretend you are powerless.

[NitneLiun]

5 minutes ago, OoogleEyes said:

Phillip looked so relaxed and happy......

......he's going to die, isn't he?

Yep. 

[Tighthead]

Was there a car phone?

I thought it was a removable tape deck/CD player like we all had back then. You would take the unit out of the dash so it couldn’t get stolen. Later just the faceplates became detachable. 

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

One thing that really fascinates me is that Philip chose to show up and meet Oleg at all. He could have ignored the whole thing. So- why did he? Curiosity? Sense of duty? Patriotism? An understanding that it must be big if someone is asking to meet him now? 

Oleg presented a very persuasive argument to Philip. That Philip didn’t shut him down immediately is telling. He really listened. Oleg, Arkady and Philip are a lot alike. It is interesting. I loved the passion and commitment that Oleg and Arkady have for seeing a better Russia, a better world. And Philip shares that too. He doesn’t talk much about the Motherland, but what he has said shows a deep desire for a better life for his people. A better standard of living in particular. And a more peaceful world. Arkady read his file very well and chose wisely imo. 

Philip's only alive by some bizarre form of good will from the KGB.  It's EXTREMELY unlikely he would blow off a requested meet.  In addition, there is the ever-present "look out for Liz" thing, and now his daughter is involved as well.  NO chance he would not make that meet.  I'm not positive it showed a deep desire to do anything but keep himself and his family alive.  After all, what they are discussing is TREASON against the current leadership in the USSR.

 

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

The only thing that was really jarring to me is Paige’s all out embrace of the USSR and spying. I know she latches onto causes, likes to feel like she’s doing something important. She liked some of the ideals of communism. IIRC- the ending of last season showed her setting aside some of her fears. Still seems like a bit of a leap though.

I’m much younger than Paige was in the 1980s. But I don’t remember anyone in the US having fond feelings for the USSR aka evil empire. I would think her indoctrination just as having lived here would be a heavy mistrust of the country. Not an embrace of it. 

It's stupid.  It's even more stupid that they keep telling us how smart she is, and she has shown NO sign of being smart.  She's not asking good questions with Granny and mom, she's not independently researching.  She lives near DC where every single newspaper covers the conditions in the world, and specifically the USSR.  She met her grandmother, who lived during Stalin, and hasn't even shown the slightest interest in THAT horrifying period of time, and apparently cares nothing about persecution for religion, or listening to the Jewish people who have been released talk about conditions in her "now." 

Totally unbelievable, unless we accept Paige as a ditzy follower who wants to belong to a cause, and any cause will do, especially one that pleases mommy.  If Manson or Jim Jones stumbled across Paige?  She'd be all in with them as well.

1 hour ago, SusanSunflower said:

yes, the Russian Refuseniks and Solzhenitsyn's best sellers (and as someone pointed out Chernobyl and that apparent coverup) made it very hard to find "nice things to say" or even maintain past-justifications for the abuses and hardships.  Crop failures stop being "acts-of-god" when they are revealed to be the result of incompetent management and corrupt practices become widely suspected.  Like famines that are about problems with food distribution rather than actual food scarcity.   There was a lot to give pause even to folks sympathetic to the real struggles of wrenching the underdeveloped USSR into the 20th century (see also China) 

Exactly.  What do I hate more, the writing for Paige or the acting?  The writing, hands down.  They blew off an entire season where they could have shown us what they keep insisting Paige IS.  Or maybe they knew they had no chance of selling that, so they just skipped it all.

1 hour ago, Ina123 said:

The security guard wasn't even a policeman and asked for TWO identifications. I would have called BS and said I didn't have another.

Anyone with a brain who is jeopardizing mom's spy mission, would have gotten out of the car and flirted her ass off.  "You are so cute, so when do you want to meet at that restaurant?  Maybe it would be better to meet in a safer area, I'd feel much better walking WITH someone strong like you through this (supposedly) bad neighborhood.  Hold his hand, a little peck on the cheek, flirty eyes.  "Come on now, you know I can't get back in my dorm without my ID, handsome.  ETC.

3 minutes ago, OoogleEyes said:

Phillip looked so relaxed and happy......

......he's going to die, isn't he?

That's been my guess for a long time now.

1 minute ago, walnutqueen said:

Blech, blech, blech, Paige, Paige, Paige.  She's ruined the series for me like no amount of having to read Russian subtitles ever could.  I've always despised her; now more than ever.

I feel so fucking sad for Elizabeth and Phillip.

She really brings the show WAY down for me too, but I think a lot of it is the crappy writing and lack of any real character development that feels even remotely possible.

[jjj]

29 minutes ago, J-Man said:

Well, let's call it Generation 1.5. After all, Perry Mason and Paul Drake had car phones 25 years earlier.

With REALLY LONG CORDS(!)

[Chaos Theory]

If anyone goofed up it was Elizabeth going all murdery.  I will defend the hill and say Paige did all she could to keep her in cover in tact.  What else could she have done?  Not given the guy her ID?  Run out of the car screaming?  Or is the fact that he snuck up on her at all her unforgivable sin?  Because if that it then both Elizabeth and Philip are shit spies as well.  Both of who have been caught with their pants down as well.  Elizabeth was right about her lecture to Paige.  She kept her cool.  She didn’t break her cover.  The guy didn’t know who she was. 

If Elizabeth wasn’t so harried she might have sent Paige on the date to get back the ID or even a “fake dad” to scare the shit out of the guy for extorting a date.  Murdering him was a goof up.  

Murdering him was the only goof up I saw.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Mrs peel]

9 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

Philip looks like he’s had a facelift or something. 

Maybe to compare how relaxed he is now that he’s out of spying, v. Elizabeth’s very obvious over-worked and tired look?

[J-Man]

From the recap:

Quote

Norm walks into a bar weirdly called "O-Reilly's," giving him a different vantage point of 55.

It would've been great if everyone in the bar had turned around and yelled "NORM!" when he walked in.

[sistermagpie]

54 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

If anyone goofed up it was Elizabeth going all murdery.  I will defend the hill and say Paige did all she could to keep her in tact.  What else could she have done?  Not given the guy her ID?  Run out of the car screaming?  Or is the fact that he snuck up on her at all her unforgivable sin?  Because if that it the both Elizabeth and Philip are shit spies as well both of who have been caught with their pants down as well.  Elizabeth was right about her lecture to Paige.  She kept her cool.  She didn’t break her cover.  The guy didn’t know who she was. 

Grading on the standard Paige curve, she's great for not telling the guy she's Paige Jennings and she's there waiting to help her mom spy for Russia. And I can understand her giving one form of ID to avoid confrontation. But there's not absolutely nothing she could have done once the guy announced he was taking her picture. A real college student might have fought harder, in fact, given how much you need those things. 

Elizabeth and Philip are often also shown as shit spies with her inability to go anywhere without being spotted and killing someone, but it still seems excessive to give Paige an A for accidentally handing a Naval officer a picture of herself to take home while waiting for a stakeout. 

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

She's not asking good questions with Granny and mom, she's not independently researching. 

It's very reminiscent of the way she seemed to be with Pastor Tim. Her comments and questions are most well-designed to please them rather than get important information for herself. I assume when she does ask questions they're always along the lines of things she knows Claudia will like. Paige knew *exactly* how to watch that movie.

ETA: One way I can imagine they might show her having skill is in enjoying being with guys for information--I just keep going back to the whole Matthew thing and how it seemed like the idea she was spying on him took the anxiety out of it for her. Plus, as we know, Paige doesn't have to do anything to get guys to come up and hit on her. Even in this scene you saw that the guy was all too eager to detail all his special info to Paige in the car. But that would be kind of interesting for Elizabeth to realize that that's her thing.

Edited March 29, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

All Paige had to do was flirt, any college age woman who doesn't know how to get what she wants from a guy, is never going to make a decent spy.  Maybe she's so socially stunted from having no friends or boyfriends, she never will be decent at it. 

I agree about the music.  It was WAY too much and WAY to loud, I felt like I was watching a Twilight Movie.  Have they no faith in their actors?  Contrast this crap with watching Better Call Saul DVD's (which I just did a few days ago, season 3) and it's glaring.  Music used in that show is used for a reason, and not to tell us what to feel, but silence and emotions playing on the actors faces can hold your attention without endless loud songs telling you what they are thinking. 

The best scenes were Oleg and Arkady, and Oleg and his wife, they didn't need music, and they didn't have pop songs blaring over their scenes.  Oleg and Philip were good too, but no, I didn't need the overpowering "mood" music leading into their scene in the park, or the music near the end of their scenes.  Come on!  These actors are good enough to carry scenes.  I didn't need the swelling music after Philip and Elizabeth's final scene either.  God!  Have a little faith in your actors, in silence, in the power of reflection.

This is a drama, not a music video that never ends, but just switches songs.  Did they hire a Twilight director?

Edited March 29, 2018 by Umbelina

[J-Man]

Are Stan and Renee supposed to be married? I think it might be a little unusual for an FBI agent of that era living with a woman out of wedlock.

[Umbelina]

10 minutes ago, J-Man said:

Are Stan and Renee supposed to be married? I think it might be a little unusual for an FBI agent of that era living with a woman out of wedlock.

Well, the FBI would certainly do a reasonable background check on her, so if she's CIA, they would probably know it.  If she's KGB, her cover must be impeccable. 

It's 1987, people lived together, and with Stan's divorce, him not rushing into another marriage wouldn't be suspect.  Still though, they want to know who their agents are spending THAT much time with.  I think she's been checked out, especially with Stan's department issues.

[qtpye]

3 hours ago, BW Manilowe said:

FYI... At the end of the post, you said, "look at the difference between Gabriel and Martha," then you described the differences between Gabriel & Claudia (whom I suspect you were referring to all along, instead of Martha). Just thought you might wanna fix that.

Fixed it...thanks.

[walnutqueen]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Exactly.  What do I hate more, the writing for Paige or the acting?  The writing, hands down.  They blew off an entire season where they could have shown us what they keep insisting Paige IS.  Or maybe they knew they had no chance of selling that, so they just skipped it all.

I know I should hate Paige for the "writing & acting", and I do, but I'm ashamed to say it may all have started with her self righteous bitch face.

[Umbelina]

Well, so far, this season, I hate the loud and endless music more than Paige.  It's cheap, annoying, and most of these actors don't need "help" conveying emotions and turmoil.