S19.E16: Dare

[dttruman]

A girl's death becomes a criminal case when a surgeon harvests her organs without parental consent.

Edited March 14, 2018 by WendyCR72
Just fixed episode formatting

[dttruman]

Have they used this premise just one too many times? Yes, they may steer the plot in another direction. I at least hope they turn it into a good story and not make it about "you know who".

Edited March 14, 2018 by dttruman

[Gigi43]

I remember  Mothership doing stories like  this. Not really  SVU except for that episode  where someone impregnated  a comatose woman for the stem cells or something.

[dttruman]

56 minutes ago, Gigi43 said:

I remember  Mothership doing stories like  this. Not really  SVU except for that episode  where someone impregnated  a comatose woman for the stem cells or something.

I vaguely remember something like that. Was a couple having another baby so they can have the stem cells to give to an older sibling (because of cancer or something), but they wouldn't testify because they didn't want the younger one to know that he (or she) was only conceived for that reason?

[Xeliou66]

While I’m glad that this storyline is different from “attractive white woman accuses rich white guy of rape” which seemed to comprise 80% of SVU’s storylines last season, I like how this season has had a wider variety of storylines, I just hope they don’t find a way to make this episode all about St Olivia and I really hope we don’t get weak Mr Nice Guy Stone this week, please get him back to being a strong prosecutor and don’t let Benson chop off his balls the way she did to Barba.

And I believe the episode you are thinking of is Scrambled from season 9 of the mothership, I think that’s the one where a couple were having a child to give the stem cells to another kid.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Xeliou66

[illdoc]

3 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

And I believe the episode you are thinking of is Scrambled from season 9 of the mothership, I think that’s the one where a couple were having a child to give the stem cells to another kid.

But it turns out they couldn't use the stem cells since the fertility doctor used his own sperm (instead of the husband's). Jack wanted to prosecute the doctor for the death of the older child, but needed the parents' testimony to do it. It was a season 5 or 6 (since it was Clair working with Jack). Something about a "Chinese Wall".

[Xeliou66]

43 minutes ago, illdoc said:

But it turns out they couldn't use the stem cells since the fertility doctor used his own sperm (instead of the husband's). Jack wanted to prosecute the doctor for the death of the older child, but needed the parents' testimony to do it. It was a season 5 or 6 (since it was Clair working with Jack). Something about a "Chinese Wall".

Ah yes, Seed from season 5, I remember it now. Scrambled dealt with the embryos being destroyed, and parents wouldn’t testify because they didn’t want their daughter to know they were going to have twins but decide to remove one as they didn’t want their daughter to know that. I got them mixed up.

[wknt3]

7 hours ago, Gigi43 said:

I remember  Mothership doing stories like  this. Not really  SVU except for that episode  where someone impregnated  a comatose woman for the stem cells or something.

 The mothership did have a few memorable organ donation stories including "Sonata for Solo Organ" all the way back in Season 1 and  "Harvest", but the spinoffs have done their take as well. SVU did kidney sales in "Parts" back in Season 6 or 7 and Criminal Intent did their spin on it with "Ex Stasis". I don't think it's been overdone though and certainly there is a better chance for a fresh take here than with a lot of other possible plots or issues.

[dttruman]

5 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I just hope they don’t find a way to make this episode all about St Olivia

Bad News, it's turning into one of those St Olivia episodes. The first 20 some minutes it's about Benson's concern for the girl's safety.

Edited March 15, 2018 by dttruman

[CleoCaesar]

What trite, manipulative shit. (Should I just copy-paste that sentence every week?)

I was watching old West Wing clips on YouTube today and saw the one where Donna calls her old teacher from the Oval Office and wondered what Janel Moloney was up to these days. Guess I have my answer.

I'm sorry, did I just miss whatever gray ambiguity the show was going for? That scumbag surgeon deserved to lose her license and a multi-decades jail sentence for stealing people's organs without consent.

[milner]

I can’t believe they didn’t put any of the parents of the other 31 parents on the stand, didn’t find one or more with strong religious reasons against donations,or try to find out if any others were not quite dead. Zoe could have been on life support while she tried to convince parents to consent but as stone said she chose to play God. She didn’t ask because she knew many would refuse.Finally if all she was charged with and found guilty of was forgery why in the world was there even a trial since she confessed to forgery. An interesting topic handled badly by the writers. 

[dttruman]

Well this was a mixture of Benson's personal concern and a social issue that was totally made unrealistic. When it comes to the social issue, the writers (and or the producers) made the parents of the dead little girl look selfish because they wouldn't release their daughters organs for transplants. Unbelievable even more was when the father apologized to the parents and the boy (who was suppose to receive the heart). They blew the circumstances all out of proportion just so they could arrive at the social issue, that parents are miserly if they don't release their child's organs. The trial was just a feeble attempt to try and show that doctors are justified in removing organs for transplants because they know better.

If there was a realistic trial it should have been a major civil suit against the doctor and the hospital

[dttruman]

12 minutes ago, CleoCaesar said:

I'm sorry, did I just miss whatever gray ambiguity the show was going for? That scumbag surgeon deserved to lose her license and a multi-decades jail sentence for stealing people's organs without consent.

Instead of a cut and dry major civil suit, they tried to make it a moral issue. If anyone's kid dies, their organs should be considered fair game for transplant harvesting for the so-called "greater good".

[Gigi43]

Would they really be allowed to let the parents of the little boy know/face the parents of the girl?  Obviously  the  boy was going to die. That could now be a murder for another episode. Really hated seeing grieving parents having to apologize for a decision they made when they were barely processing their child's death. They were violated. Aren't there orthodox  religions that say you have to go in the ground whole? So it's fine to violate that? As Stone said organ donation is a choice. Someone  up thread mentioned  CIs Ex-Stasis, that guy likened not being a donor to being a murderer and he was a nut job. Yet here everyone was treating those parents like they did something wrong.

 

Bottom line the doctor broke the law. Organ harvesting is a black market business.  The point Stone made about  not being "quite dead", I thought was going to go somewhere  like Zoe would have lived but been  severely brain damaged. We saw kids leading "full" lives. It's not a stretch that a doctor with a complex of taking organs might base deciding whose quality of life being a factor. It's ridiculous  that with all Bensons years on the job she sees no threat to going easy on the doctor who broke the law.

 

Are we going to be reminded Ben is dead in every episode?

 

Hey though a jury verdict! Don't see that often enough.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Gigi43

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Did Fin really say Dead is DEAD?

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Had to dodge those Stone/Benson anvils in the last scene.

 

Like I was Wile E Coyote.

 

SUPER GENIUS..

[dttruman]

2 minutes ago, MrsRafaelBarba said:

hose Stone/Benson anvils in the last scene.

Annoying as HELL!

[shapeshifter]

There was a L&O (not sure which version) episode with a self righteous, blackmarket organ and tissue harvester (he also make money off of them, which he used to support the free clinic where he worked). It came to light because some of the bones he used carried cancer, which was transfered to two tissue donation recipients (I'm not even sure if that's medically possible, but let's say it is). How could this episode's organs from Zoe have possibly been tested quickly enough? What if her heart had HIV or hepatitis infected blood in it when they put it in a little boy's chest an hour later? I had a routine (for me) CEA (colon cancer marker) blood test done on Tuesday this week and didn't get the (good) results until over 24 hours later.

Anyway. I must've dozed off at the end. Did they decide to sentence her to double digit prison years? I heard Liv saying she lost her license to practice medicine . If she is in prison, would she be allowed to work in the infirmary?

[Maximum Taco]

Here's a question: Why the crap is a hospital in freaking Buffalo calling Manhattan SVU to report on the death of child they all barely know? What parent would consent to letting every shitty cop in NYC in on their very real personal private pain?  

 

Gee I'm sorry about your loss Mr Johnson. But it's in the Hippocratic oath that I have to inform St. Benson about the death of every child so she can make this about her instead of you.

[rhys]

∆∆∆because the kid who was supposed to get the heart, Henry, testified in court.

[Maximum Taco]

6 minutes ago, rhys said:

∆∆∆because the kid who was supposed to get the heart, Henry, testified in court.

So? I am aware who Henry was, I did just watch the episode. I still fail to understand why Manhattan SVU would be their first call.

First of all, it's none of their business. Its not a crime, it's not in Manhattan. 

Second of all, the parents would likely view the state (especially Benson and Stone) as people who took a heart away from their boy and then sent to jail the doctor who was trying to help them. 

There is literally no reason they would want to tell them what happened. Unless their first thought after their child died was "Hey! Now I can make that prosecutor and cop I met once feel super bad about their decisions! That'll help me mourn Henry!"

Edited March 15, 2018 by Maximum Taco

[Xeliou66]

This episode wasn’t perfect but it was one of the season’s better efforts. 

I liked that the story was something different entirely from the usual he said/she said rapes, and that the story was more balanced than normal, we got to see both sides of a difficult case without one side being demonized to the point of parody while the other side looks great. 

Both sides made good points, but I thought the best points were made in Stone’s closing argument, it isn’t the governments right or a doctors right to control our bodies, it’s our right to and I thought Stone made a strong argument in pointing that out, and I was glad he got the conviction, because although the doctor may have saved lives and thought she was doing right, she was still harvesting people’s organs without consent and deserved punishment. 

I have to say I thought the parents were being a bit selfish in not letting them donate the daughters heart, I know that they were going through extreme grief and it was an awful position they were put in that the doctor had harvested the organs without their knowledge, but if it was me I wouldn’t want another parent to go through what I had gone through in losing a child and I would let them donate the heart. But the doctor had no right to harvest it without their consent, and Benson and Fin did the right thing by upholding their wishes even though they were conflicted and I would’ve been as well. 

I did think it was a plot hole that they didn’t find out about the doctor’s dead son before the trial, they would’ve found that out when they started their investigation of her and that was a hole, it would’ve been better had they found it out sooner and used that to question her judgment. 

I dislike how they are making Stone and Benson friendly, especially when Benson continues to treat him like shit, what the fuck was she saying at the end about him trying to compensate for not being at Ben’s side when he died, that has nothing to do with the case, a doctor didn’t harvest Ben’s organs without his permission. I did like how Stone didn’t bow to Benson’s wishes and did push forward despite Benson wanting him to back down, and I think he would do the same at sentencing, I was very relieved that the episode didn’t end with him asking for leniency or backing down from his stance. However I dislike how friendly Stone and Benson are, and I hate that Stone is already calling her “Olivia”, it just isn’t natural at all, they were very antagonistic just a couple of episodes ago and Benson is still a bitch to him a lot of the time, but he is friendly to her and calls her by her first name?! Seriously????!!!! At least Stone isn’t taking Benson’s orders, if it had been Barba he probably would’ve dropped the case and apologized to Benson for offending her!!

Nice not seeing Noah again. 

Fin, Carisi and Rollins were all good and got a decent amount of screen time which was nice. 

Those girls at the start, including the victim, were some of the stupidest people we’ve seen in a while, but unfortunately it’s a realistic scenario, kids do idiotic shit like that all the time, just look at the whole Tide Pod thing, and a lot of them don’t have the backbone or the brains to think for themselves they just follow along like sheep. Unfortunately realistic situation. 

One of this season’s better efforts overall IMO, far from perfect but not a bad episode either.

[Gigi43]

Another thing, Benson actually  said to Stone something about pushing jail time would be "bullying "? What the fuck? I really think the doctor  letting  her lawyer  bring in Henry and the parents in the name of saving her own ass, shoving it in the face of her victims  (Zoeys parents ) is closer to bullying. She was incapable of giving  a shit about their suffering  and gave no shits about piling it on. But go easy on her? Hell no.

[shapeshifter]

39 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Nice not seeing Noah again

Maybe it was just me, but as soon as they mentioned the "little boy" who needed the heart, I saw him as a Noah stand-in.

 

41 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

the fuck was she saying at the end about him [Stone] trying to compensate for not being at Ben’s side when he died, that has nothing to do with the case, a doctor didn’t harvest Ben’s organs without his permission

I was definitely sleep watching by the end, but I thought I heard Stone deliver a retcon about his father's organs being harvested before he could get there. No?

[QueenMab]

So far, every time I look at the TV, Benson is running or crashing through something like Steven Seagal busting a meth lab....I don't know what this is....

[Xeliou66]

1 minute ago, shapeshifter said:

Maybe it was just me, but as soon as they mentioned the "little boy" who needed the heart, I saw him as a Noah stand-in.

 

I was definitely sleep watching by the end, but I thought I heard Stone deliver a retcon about his father's organs being harvested before he could get there. No?

No, Stone said it was upsetting that he wasn’t there when Ben died but that it would’ve been a lot more upsetting had they harvested his organs when he wasn’t there. So there was no connection, it was just another low blow from Benson, she’s a bitch and a bully, it’s incredibly hypocritical of her to accuse Stone of being a bully when she behaves like one every episode. Benson has no idea how she comes across and MH doesn’t either for that matter, she thinks everyone loves Benson dominating the screen time when a ton of people are sick of The Olivia Benson Hour.

[LittleIggy]

I agree with countries which have laws that say unless you specifically choose not to be a donor, then you are.

[ForeverAlone]

This is an example of an old school SVU episode (i.e. some incidental crime occurring before getting to the "real" crime in some sort of twist) I don't like. Sure I don't mind a good twist, but I still like the crimes to stay in the SVU lane, and some of the older episodes (and this one), don't meet the SVU threshold after some pretext for bringing in the team. I PERSONALLY had a hard time empathizing. I fell more into the camp of Dominic and Fin.  Granted I don't have children, but I am an organ donor myself, so I don't necessarily understand why someone would refuse to allow a loved one to be an organ donor (barring some religious conviction, of course). And who knows, it is entirely possible the parents MIGHT have consented if the doctor had consulted with the parents and explained how their daughter's organs could be used to save other children's lives. But yeah, doctors taking it upon themselves to do this sort of thing is some screwed up crap. So I get why she was arrested and tried, and why the parents were angry. Which makes me dumbfounded that the doctor never even TRIED to get parents' consent. But of course the show needed a story and needed to get there in some way. 

Olivia had it right. This episode wasn't "police business." I actually liked Olivia's doubt in this episode, because she is usually so hardcore right and wrong. I was actually hoping she would have handed off that heart to the pilot and done what Fin suggested (he is the master of the pragmatic). Of course, I don't understand why Peter felt the need to talk his sentencing decision out with Olivia (in real life, not show life, because in this show, nobody can make a decision without Olivia's input). 

[pinguina]

I felt  bad for the family who needed a new heart for their son BUT how did they even know that the girl's heart was a match for their son?  Were test done before she was pronounced brain dead?  OR immediately after? OR knew beforehand by her medical records?  It seemed to speculation on the doctor's part - wild speculation!  

Also to make the parents feel bad about not giving organs?  By the other parents?  Implying that the girl's parents had no compassion?  Where was the boy's parents' compassion?  I'm saying that based on the glares they gave the father and the almost angry tone they used.  They (boy's parents) knew how it felt to know they are/were losing a child, they couldn't have at least sympathy for a family who already lost their child?  They had to judge them instead?

As for the doctor's decision to harvest organs WITHOUT parental consent - just because she was being altruistic does not make it right. She could have (as someone upthread said) put the girl on life support as she talked to the parents AFTER they had a little time to process their loss.  It was wrong and ultimately seems to be based on what she went through - although painful still does not give her the right to make decisions for other parents.  AS I am sure she would not have appreciated someone else making a decision for HER child.

Finally - Benson, that was a low-blow to Stone.  Where does she come off saying that Stone did this because he wasn't there when his dad died?  He said that if doctors had taken his dad's organs without his knowledge he would have been angry too.  

Oh, And why would a hospital call the NYPD to tell them that the boy died???

ETA: I didn't like how buddy-buddy Benson and Stone seemed at the end too - (Bully? For doing his job correctly? Uh, no.)

[walnutqueen]

Oh, for the love of all things holy and human; puleeze stop me from going apeshit on Saint Olivia/Mariska-whatever-the-fuck.  I just can't anymore with this bish, and with this ish.

I'd throw a flip-flop in her direction, but I cannot afford another Walmart cheap TeeVee (much less another pair of Nike flip-flops).

I aorta adjust my DVR series accordingly, lest this show contributes to my elevated blood pressure.

Oh, and as contrary as it seems, consent can never be presumed.

[J-Man]

Why do they even bother calling this show "SVU" anymore if they're going to deal with cases that have nothing to do with their mission?

I was sure they were going to go with a hung jury as a way to sidestep the issue, and then have Stone decline to re-file. I think a real life jury would have a hard time unanimously convicting a doctor in that situation. Seems like a case that would be ripe for jury nullification. 

And was I the only one who was surprised there was no PSA ("The More You Know") tacked on at the end reminding people to sign up to be organ donors? Maybe even narrated by the actor who played the poor little (now dead) heart patient? 

Edited March 15, 2018 by J-Man

[WendyCR72]

I guess this is one of the lesser offenses here as motivation for why X or Y unit investigates has always been sort of fluid on both SVU and CI, but why was organ harvesting considered a case for SVU?

Whatever the case, this is like the third or fourth time the franchise has tackled this. I guess organ donation (or doing it unwillingly a la TV) is still a big issue.

[CelticBlackCat]

14 minutes ago, walnutqueen said:

Oh, for the love of all things holy and human; puleeze stop me from going apeshit on Saint Olivia/Mariska-whatever-the-fuck.  I just can't anymore with this bish, and with this ish.

I'd throw a flip-flop in her direction, but I cannot afford another Walmart cheap TeeVee (much less another pair of Nike flip-flops).

I aorta adjust my DVR series accordingly, lest this show contributes to my elevated blood pressure.

Oh, and as contrary as it seems, consent can never be presumed.

But that's how they do it in Europe!  Europe = Good, USA = Bad.  GMAFB

What really bothered me about that doctor was, besides her blatant lack of respect for patients in her care and the wishes of minor's parents, she didn't try to trailblaze her way to glory by perfecting her skills of persuasion on presenting organ donor choices, but sneaked around playing God.  Forgery for the greater good?  No!

The doctor said it would be ridiculous to kill one patient and harvest organs only to save another.  That's not what would have happened though.  She harvested four organs:  two kidneys, a liver and a heart.  That could be three or four organ transplants, so in her greater good mind, she'd be saving more than one life on the death of just one patient/donor.

I did not like that doctor at all.  At least Benson is declining Stone's offer of a drink when she goes up to him in the bar.  I think Stone might just be trying to stay on her good side but is not going to become her lapdog.  Fingers crossed!

[TDT]

Just now, J-Man said:

And was I the only one who was surprised there was no PSA ("The More You Know") tacked on at the end reminding people to sign up to be organ donors? Maybe even narrated by the actor who played the poor little (now dead) heart patient? 

As if this episode wasnt depressing enough,they just had to end it on that note..

[walnutqueen]

OK, only in St. Olivia's UNIVERSE would a law enforcement officer be anywhere NEAR a dying patient, much less have anything to say.

Shutty.

[dttruman]

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

this episode's organs from Zoe have possibly been tested quickly enough? What if her heart had HIV or hepatitis infected blood in it when they put it in a little boy's chest an hour later? I had a routine (for me) CEA (colon cancer marker) blood test done on Tuesday this week and didn't get the (good) results until over 24 hours later.

Very good point! Another reason why this show was so ill conceived. They really stretched their dramatic license here just to create this moral dilemma. They kept bringing up that scenario "what if that was your kid" when they tried to insert everybody's opinion. IMO, this wasn't a very good thought provoking episode.

Edited March 15, 2018 by dttruman

[dttruman]

4 hours ago, pinguina said:

I felt  bad for the family who needed a new heart for their son BUT how did they even know that the girl's heart was a match for their son?  Were test done before she was pronounced brain dead?  OR immediately after? OR knew beforehand by her medical records?  It seemed to speculation on the doctor's part - wild speculation!  

Excellent observation like Shapeshifter mentioned,

[dttruman]

5 hours ago, ForeverAlone said:

This is an example of an old school SVU episode (i.e. some incidental crime occurring before getting to the "real" crime in some sort of twist) I don't like. Sure I don't mind a good twist, but I still like the crimes to stay in the SVU lane

This is one of their "Bait and Switch" episodes, that I don't like either. It should have been a standard case where the doctor pleads out to numerous forgeries, loses her license, and later gets herself and the hospital sued by numerous not so happy parents.

[shapeshifter]

Too bad there's no "regular" actor playing the medical examiner any more (or any scientific voice like they had on CSI) to pipe up with a comment about how all of these donor consent issues would be moot if there was enough funding for further R&D of biofabrication, tissue engineering, and regenerative medicine.

[wknt3]

The Good:
An interesting case that attempted to present moral ambiguity and explore an issue.
Stone. It's nice to have an ADA standing up for the law and asserting themselves instead of just doing what Benson tells them to.
Solid acting from the guest cast, especially the kids.
A second week with minimal Benoah.
Everyone was involved.

The Bad:
Hey show remember how you let Rollisi develop organically and have pretty much avoided ever going there explicitly because of Rollins' history? Remember how you kind of ruined the last ADA by pushing him together with Benson? Going father back do you remember how when you intend to have characters get together with Benson from the beginning it's never worked out well in the end? No? Well we do. Stop trying to make BenStone a thing!
This was another episode that was hurt by the pared down cast and lack of recurring characters. We really could have used Warner to deliver some exposition about bioethics and medical issues and probably condemn the doctor's actions while sympathizing with both sets of parents.
The episode was really hurt by having to make Benson the focus of everything at all times. It would have been much better if they allowed someone else to go up on the rooftop and then have Benson be caught in the middle, seeing both sides. Maybe have her order Rollins to stop the helicopter while she talks to the parents, setting up Rollins to be sympathetic and Benson to be conflicted? Or better yet have Fin be the one to tell Rollins to do it while he calls Liv. Fin is fine with following the law, Rollins is haunted by feeling complicit in possibly letting a child die, and Benson is caught in the middle. You have intra-squad drama and Benson still gets to be the lead and viewer surrogate. I just wish Mariska's ego allowed her to see that sometimes less is more.
There was a certain lack of polish to some of the writing. I wonder if after the last year and a half the writers have forgotten how to do subtlety and shades of gray?

 

Overall this was another solid effort IMHO. Not perfect by any means, but not embarrassing either. I think we are still going in the right direction. It was probably a B/B-. One of this season's better efforts. We're still miles ahead of last season and seem to be moving in the right direction (even if Mariska's ego is pulling things off course occasionally).

[Maximum Taco]

6 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

I agree with countries which have laws that say unless you specifically choose not to be a donor, then you are.

I do too. But the purpose of that law is to provide an option if the people are unable to give consent not a method of getting around consent for people who are unwilling and haven't explicitly said so.

For example, say a child dies in an accident and her parents are either unreachable in the immediate aftermath or unable to come to the hospital. Or if someone dies with no next of kin. Or if someone dies and they have no means of identifying them. Those kinds of scenarios are the purpose of laws of implied consent. 

The scenario in this episode is completely different. Here the doctor was able to seek consent and chose not to for fear of rejection. Even in those countries where consent is implied I have to believe that the doctor would atleast approach the parents and give them the option of refusing donation before just proceeding.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Maximum Taco

[sockii]

For me this was the worst episode in a long time...well at least since the bulk of last season. As someone who works in the medical profession (and is married to a doctor) I just could not roll with the suspension of disbelief enough to stop screaming "WTF" at the television screen.

I just...I'm still boggled. We're really supposed to swallow that 30+ other families didn't notice that their dead child's organs were harvested without their permission? None wanted to see their child's body after death and before transport to the morgue/funeral home? No one at the hospital wondered or noticed, perchance, why the treating physician was also the one harvesting the organs (which I believe is a violation of federal law?) No other nurses or staff present noticed that something wasn't right? Forget jail time, this doctor would have her ass handed to her by losing her license and facing multiple civil lawsuits - the hospital as well - for what happened here.

If the doctor was so adamant about the importance of organ donation for waiting children she realistically could have been advocating for that to the parents as a possibility for them to consider. But this? This was ludicrous bullshit that legitimately made me ANGRY to watch, especially once it got into the heavy-handed moralizing that somehow the doctor was in the ethical *right*.

Ugh. I feel like I lost several IQ points just sitting through that one to the end.

Edited March 15, 2018 by sockii

[Maximona]

10 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Nice not seeing Noah again. 

That was the high point of the episode for me!

Dreadful, dreadful, dreadful episode in oh, so many ways!

First of all -- why was the Sex Crimes Unit following up an organ harvesting scandal?

Secondly, Dr. Donna admitted she forged the signatures!  I'm no lawyer, of course.  But wouldn't that be grounds for discontinuing the trial?  Saving some of the taxpayers' hard-earned money?  My understanding is that the "necessity" cited by the defense lawyer is limited to proximal events.  Am I wrong?

Finally, the new ADA could take first prize in an Abraham Lincoln impersonator contest with a little bit of help from Just For Men.  Nothing wrong with that per se, I guess, but I find it awfully distracting.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

However I dislike how friendly Stone and Benson are, and I hate that Stone is already calling her “Olivia”, it just isn’t natural at all, they were very antagonistic just a couple of episodes ago and Benson is still a bitch to him a lot of the time, but he is friendly to her and calls her by her first name?! Seriously????!!!! At least Stone isn’t taking Benson’s orders, if it had been Barba he probably would’ve dropped the case and apologized to Benson for offending her!!

ICAM. I definitely think Stone and Benson are going to hook up and it'll go one of two ways: he "tames" her with his strong, masculine lovemaking (imagine the most ridiculous romance novel cover), or it turns out he's rather kinky in his off-hours and is quite ready to have Mistress Olivia dominate him in the bedroom.

Quote

We're really supposed to swallow that 30+ other families didn't notice that their dead child's organs were harvested without their permission?

Yep, I wondered about that too. Don't some religions strongly frown on autopsies and organ donation? That's another reason why I don't see how at least some of the families wouldn't have noticed what was done to their children's bodies. Maybe the doctor was canny enough not to pull that stuff on children from certain cultures.

[Willowsmom]

It could also be that the kids were autopsied or whatever caused their deaths explained the condition of the bodies.

[sockii]

10 minutes ago, Willowsmom said:

It could also be that the kids were autopsied or whatever caused their deaths explained the condition of the bodies.

I could buy, possibly, one or two cases where that happened. But the idea that this doctor could get away with it 30+ times? Before getting caught? That she handled that many cases where a child died (presumably while already in surgery so that organs could be immediately removed) and arrangements could be made on the fly to get those organs to a waiting matched recipient? Did she do screening on every child that came under her care to be ready "just in case"? Even as a 19-year long viewer of SVU, this one went beyond my ability to suspend disbelief.

[Xeliou66]

The doctor is still entitled to the right to trial by jury and her own defense even if she confesses. 

I couldn’t agree more with those who mentioned Warner, she should’ve been in this episode to provide expert testimony about the process of organ harvesting and the unethical nature of what the doctor was doing. 

I did think that it was rushed that they could donate the heart on the same day, as it could’ve been dangerous if there was something wrong with the heart, but I guess it was just necessary for the plot. 

And yeah, please stop forcing Benson and Stone together, it’s extremely unnatural how they went from being antogonistic to friendly, although Benson is still rude to Stone and it was an incredibly low blow to mention the personal information he shared about his dad’s death to act like that was influencing his judgment when the case had absolutely nothing to do with Ben’s death, I don’t know why Stone is so nice to her when she is mainly a bitch to him, but we’re supposed to believe Stone is comfortable enough with her to call her “Olivia”. And it made no sense that Stone would drop by Benson’s office at the end, he has no reason to discuss the case with her, if he wanted to discuss sentencing with someone he would go to McCoy. 

This show is solely trying to appeal to the Benson/MH fangirls who worship everything about her, everyone else is sick of Benson dominating the screen time and MH getting on a soapbox each episode. 

[sd dude]

Quote

Dr. Donna admitted she forged the signatures!  I'm no lawyer, of course.  But wouldn't that be grounds for discontinuing the trial?  Saving some of the taxpayers' hard-earned money?  My understanding is that the "necessity" cited by the defense lawyer is limited to proximal events.  Am I wrong?

(Also no lawyer here).  We didn't see the arraignment of course, but presumably the doctor pleaded not guilty to the charges, and therefore had a right to a fair trial.  Whether she confessed to a particular act in a police interview or on the witness stand amounts to evidence in the trial, not a verdict in the trial.  After all, we've seen many, many times (and not just on L&O) how engaging in a behavior, choosing to act or not act in some way, committing to a particular decision, etc. does not necessarily equate with guilty or not guilty in a court of law.  It appeared to this layperson that the defense attorney was basically shooting for jury nullification on the grounds that the doctor violated the letter of the law but it was an improper law and that the doctor had proper justification for violating it.  Wrong.

Bottom line - I can confess in a recorded live interview on national TV in the presence of police and a prosecuting attorney that I'm the guy who buried Jimmy Hoffa, but I can't be immediately punished for it if I don't accept a plea of guilty in front of a judge, and  if I insist after the fact that I'm not guilty, the constitution entitles me to a trial, regardless of what the evidence is against me.

[HunterHunted]

12 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Both sides made good points, but I thought the best points were made in Stone’s closing argument, it isn’t the governments right or a doctors right to control our bodies, it’s our right to and I thought Stone made a strong argument in pointing that out, and I was glad he got the conviction, because although the doctor may have saved lives and thought she was doing right, she was still harvesting people’s organs without consent and deserved punishment. 

The little girl had no brain activity, but her heart was still beating. There was more than enough time for the doctor to have a social worker sit down with the parents or at the very least ask the hospital ethics committee. However, Stone was correct. The law has already established mechanisms for getting consent in these situations. The doctor's failure to get consent is condescending paternalism to the Nth degree.

12 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I have to say I thought the parents were being a bit selfish in not letting them donate the daughters heart, I know that they were going through extreme grief and it was an awful position they were put in that the doctor had harvested the organs without their knowledge, but if it was me I wouldn’t want another parent to go through what I had gone through in losing a child and I would let them donate the heart. But the doctor had no right to harvest it without their consent, and Benson and Fin did the right thing by upholding their wishes even though they were conflicted and I would’ve been as well. 

I too thought the parents were being selfish. What's done is done. The organs were already harvested. Refusing to let them be transplanted was just despoiling the organs so that no good could come of their daughter's death. What the doctor did was terrible, but I just can't imagine letting it all go to waste.

I don't think I've run across a necessity defense in any modern era. 

I'm not a fan of the looming BenStone. Ugh.

[sugarplum]

Long time viewer of SVU - since the beginning. Never commented here. This episode pushed me over the edge, however. 

 

So much wrong with this episode. My sister was a 2 time heart transplant recipient. I’m a huge advocate of organ donation and spend much of my time volunteering for Donate Life and dispelling rumors about organ donation. This episode single handedly counteracts every bit of that. NOTHING in this episode about organ donation was true. Do they not do any research? I’m so angry. Organ donation is 100% anonymous - unless the donor and recipient BOTH choose to be made known to the other. There is no way the doctor at the time of death would know who the donor organs would go to. All organ donation is arranged anonymously through UNOS and are matched through very specific, strict criteria, including, but not limited to: severity of illness, status on waiting list, blood and tissue type, age, weight, cavity size, geographic location, just to name a few. The boy represented may have sounded good in theory, but to be as in need of a heart as they said he was, his criteria would have required him to be in-patient, and most likely on life saving devices. Again - my sister has received 2 of these. I have intimate knowledge. The doctor WOULD NOT know the names of the patients who received the organs she harvested...because in real life...she would not be the doctor harvesting the organs. The way things work is, once a patient is declared brain dead, but still has viable organs - and next of kin has signed consent forms, UNOS is notified with the patients information (including blood/tissue type, age, size, lifestyle, etc). UNOS then notifies the programs for the next patients who match those organs - they may or may not technically be the next on the list, they are just the next on the list that match. Those programs send THEIR procurement teams to harvest the organs - so these are doctors who have never seen or worked on the patient (who has already been declared brain dead) to remove the organs. Each hospital who will transplant the organs comes to get their own organs. And each team may decline an organ - it may be too large for their patient, for instance, if so, it will go to the next on the list. NO doctor who is trying to save a patients life is the one who procures the organs. And never would a potential donor and recipient meet the way they showed. 

 

What kills me even more is April is National Donate Life Month. While Donate Life America does all they can to try to get more people to donate, SVU just took us back 30 years by making people think a doctor is going to harvest your organs without consent. Someone is added to the transplant waiting list every 10 minutes. EVERY TEN MINUTES. Not enough people are signing up to be organ donors already. I’m so disgusted with SVU. How dare they. 

Edited March 15, 2018 by sugarplum