S03.E13: No Country For Old Dads

[KirkB]

39 minutes ago, CloudySky said:

Instead of practicing swiping up/down and sideways Damien should have been practicing front/back swipes! That dangling Nora scene was so frustrating!!!

Watching that scene it occurred to me we've seen Dark lift people up, hold them still and knock them aside, not to mention break their necks (and Ray seemed to be remarkably unmoved by his ex-coworker's death, even if he didn't like the guy) but I don't think he's ever pulled anyone or anything toward him. That's a pretty big gap in his telekinetic usefulness, I'd be pulling things to me more than anything else.

[Mellowyellow]

BR and CF's real life chemistry was so cute on LoT this week!!! I see spark!

Of course from the Ray and Nora perspective that is a train wreck waiting to happen! Poor Ray! This is going to end so badly! But I still think Ray and Nora are so entertaining together onscreen.

Finally a Ray centric episode after I've been struggling through the last few eps (except for the Wally karaoke last week! That is still awesome). 

Kinda pissed that no one noticed Ray was gone! LOVE that he does dishes *heart eyes* and cracked up at the butter coffee thing they referenced.

BR is so handsome *swoons* and cute and plays Ray perfectly! Ray has so much heart and is all sunshine and rainbows without coming off as a cartoon. I will forever be sad they didn't give him his own show. 

19 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

I'm fanwanking Mick immediately volunteered for the Grateful Dead assignment thinking they'd get Ray fast. And when it didn't happen and they couldn't find him, he turned to beer to ease his breaking heart. You can't stop me!

I don't know how the hell Arrow managed to screw up Ray (supposedly; I didn't watch then), but my Grodd, Ray is a perfect cinnamon roll of a man and I want to love him and squeeze him and call him George.

Don't you believe any of that! He was perfect and has always been a jammy bun with extra sweet jam! S3 will forever be my favourite season of Arrow! 

[ketose]

I thought Wally's "basic bitch" comment was way out of character. Frankly, it seems like the writers just wanted an excuse to get him out of the room so Zari and Amaya could bond together with the totem bearer.

The one thing I found weird is that Ava Sharpe has the same last name as Becky Sharpe, aka Hazard from the Flash this season. I have no idea how that could be a big problem, though.

NM's wig reminded me of Chris Gains for some reason.

[Lady Calypso]

7 minutes ago, ketose said:

I thought Wally's "basic bitch" comment was way out of character. Frankly, it seems like the writers just wanted an excuse to get him out of the room so Zari and Amaya could bond together with the totem bearer.

I think it was that, but also so Sara could give the big Misfits speech to Wally at the end so he'd stay. Though I'm not quite sure it's all out of character. The problem is with how little they utilized Wally on The Flash. I can't forget how whiny he became after Flashpoint before he got his powers (I remember the day Jesse told him about her powers, he tried to get powers by standing in front of a car), and then he got a little smug that he was faster than Barry. It was an odd line to include for Wally, for sure, but not completely out of character. Plus, hanging out with Nate might have rubbed off on him. 

[Goldmoon]

I think Ray was demonized on Arrow because Felicity was dating him and most fans wanted to see her with Ollie.  I didn't think that that version of Ray was so bad, although he was short on the Pollyanna vibe.  I was pretty unhappy that Ray essentially traded that guy's life for Nora's.  If he had just backed up after he had Amaya's necklace last episode, she would be alive, his old Upswipe colleage would be alive and Amaya would have her totem.  This is reminding me of how often Ray screwed up in season one of LoT, and that is not good.

[Starfish35]

Eh.  I'm not an Olicity shipper, but even I wasn't crazy about Arrow!Ray.  Part of the problem was that Ray on Arrow was originally supposed to be Ted Kord, until they weren't allowed to use him.  And Ray Palmer, business tycoon, is not my favorite Ray at all.  It wasn't until the episode "Broken Arrow", late in the season, where we got to see some glimpses of Ray as he is on Legends.  

[BkWurm1]

Will read the comments next but just wanted to say right away how much fun i had with that.  All the meta between BR and his wife was hilarious but also worked so well for Ray and Nora.  If he could de-evil her, yeah, I'd ship it, lol.  And some weeks I think they kept DD around too long and then I get an episode like this and am so happy they did.  And the return to Upswiptz and the jerk boss (almost sorry you are dead!) was perfect.  

Poor Ray, nobody knew you were gone!  Well, they were just figuring it out.  Those dishes don't wash themselves (and I loved that the actually LOVED doing it,)

Wally being all goody goody about Mick's souvenir and then getting the legends version of the rules was a favorite moment.  I am looking forward to them using him more in future weeks.  

Glad to have Rip out of the doghouse.  :D  

Amaya and Zari had the more serious part of the episode and I really enjoy their relationship.  

Another favorite episode for me even though not a whole lot happened. 

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

It was an odd line to include for Wally, for sure, but not completely out of character. Plus, hanging out with Nate might have rubbed off on him. 

I took it as an attempt to bond by dishing with two other friends of Nate about the horrible woman who dumped him on his birthday.  Unfortunately for Wally, the "horrible woman" was Amaya.

[BkWurm1]

19 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

Oh my goodness the dating app matched him with Carrie Cutter! 

And he upswiped her as well!  

12 hours ago, LucidDreamer said:

That wig... I wonder who it had dirt on to allow it to appear on the show?

The terrible wig was half my fun with the character.  

1 hour ago, Goldmoon said:

I think Ray was demonized on Arrow because Felicity was   I was pretty unhappy that Ray essentially traded that guy's life for Nora's.  If he had just backed up after he had Amaya's necklace last episode, she would be alive, his old Upswipe colleage would be alive and Amaya would have her totem.  This is reminding me of how often Ray screwed up in season one of LoT, and that is not good.

1

Upswipe guy made such a negative impression on me in his one other impression I only felt a little bad he got killed.  He said Felicity ran Palmer Tech into the ground.  I hold grudges.  ?

Quote

I’m glad BR got a little time to shine this week, he really manages to bring so much heart to what could easily be a saccharine, two-dimensional character. It’s pretty sad that none of the other Legends noticed he was missing though. And I’m bummed the writers once again forgot Mick should care.

Mick made a point to tell Ray the dishes were waiting for him.  And Ray was so happy about them (plus Sara mentioned how much he enjoyed washing them) that I took it as Mick's way of welcoming him home.  :D

[jay741982]

On 3/5/2018 at 9:12 PM, bettername2come said:

I enjoyed Dad Damien Darhk way more than I should have. I love Neal McDonough. He seems like he has fun at work. I also think Brandon Routh had some fun working with his real life wife. I think some chemistry's bleeding through because I don't hate the idea of Nora/Ray. 

I totally read the first look Rip gave them as him having a thing for Ava, which is weird because I should have automatically jumped on the "he likes Sara" train. But I'm relieved it seems to be something else that can stop this relationship. What the hell is Ava? Robot? Future descendant of Sara's (they were kind of looking alike tonight)? Paradox?

Sara looks good in red. She should wear it more often.

I'd like to think if Ava is a descendant of Sara, they would've told them to prevent incest 

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, johntfs said:

I took it as an attempt to bond by dishing with two other friends of Nate about the horrible woman who dumped him on his birthday.  Unfortunately for Wally, the "horrible woman" was Amaya.

Yeah, pretty much. Plus, he had that break up with Jessie not so very long ago so he's probably a bit harsher in his views, but I assume that was what all the meditation was about.  

We didn't get a lot of Wally in the episode but I think it's a good idea to let him ease in and not be everywhere right away.  We had just enough to want more.  And I don't recall feeling that way about him ever on The Flash.  :D

I found it really cute that Rip was playing matchmaker for the team.  Yes, he's planning for the future battle but he also really seemed to be happy to see Sara take Wally under her wing.  I'm looking forward to Wally getting to color outside of the lines.  

4 minutes ago, jay741982 said:

I'd like to think if Ava is a descendant of Sara, they would've told them to prevent incest 

How about if Ava is a descendant of Nora and Ray?  That would cause both a problem because Ava would be related to the man that killed her sister and it would be super weird for her to have Ray for a father in law....which is why I kind of want it!

[Maelstrom]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

I found it really cute that Rip was playing matchmaker for the team.  Yes, he's planning for the future battle but he also really seemed to be happy to see Sara take Wally under her wing.

Rip may be a terrible captain and kind of a lousy human being, but he puts together a good team! Also, I got a kick out of his “wait, what?” reaction when Wally and Sara mentioned the wedding-crashing Nazis.

[jhlipton]

On 3/5/2018 at 6:05 PM, Lady Calypso said:

way too much Damien. He needed to go away about two minutes into the episode. I simply didn't care.

I'm bored by Dahrk -- too much same old, same old.  I started fast-forwarding his scenes -- something I never do!

 

 

On 3/5/2018 at 6:51 PM, kdm07 said:

Ray, Nora isn't who you should be catching feelings for. Find someone else...anyone else who isn't possessed by a demon and who's father isn't the worst.

She was a mass-murderer before being possessed by a demon.  I don't care how much you think she can be "redeemed", she will kill any and all of your team without a moment's hesitation.  There's being kind-hearted and being a fool.

That said, I really wish Nora had been able to get the scientist across the border on her own -- as it was, Ray's kind words were just stupid; she really can't do anything without Daddy's help.

23 hours ago, KirkB said:

If you like Dark this was a fantastic episode.

If you don't like Dark, wow was this probably a terrible episode.

Put me in the "terrible" camp.

14 hours ago, KirkB said:

I still don't get where everyone is coming up with robot

Maybe they're confusing Amy with Aida (Agents of SHIELD)?

[Jediknight]

4 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

The terrible wig was half my fun with the character. 

Given how much fun McDonough is obviously having, I wouldn't be surprised if he suggested it.

On one hand, I should be mad about Darhk still being around, but McDonough is having so much fun chewing as much scenery as possible that it connects with you, and he has good chemistry with the cast.  His dad jokes were on point this episode.  Keep him around after this season, just as somebody who randomly pops up and annoys the Legends.

I legit don't think there's a character that Legends can't improve.

[Quark]

Nora almost dying around 17 times was a hoot.

[diebartdie]

On 3/5/2018 at 9:08 PM, Sakura12 said:

Are they going to make Ray fall for Nora because the actors are married in real life. I'm sure they had fun working together though. Wally didn't get much to do but he did save the day and joined the team of misfits that make bad first impressions and that engage in light to moderate theft.

Considering the fact that Nate and Mick went back in time to see The Grateful Dead (I wish I knew what shows they went to, I REALLY hope 5/7/77 was at least one of the shows.....maybe one of the Acid Tests too....) I think the Legends are probably ok with ....

On 3/5/2018 at 11:29 PM, Miss Dee said:

I'm fanwanking Mick immediately volunteered for the Grateful Dead assignment thinking they'd get Ray fast. And when it didn't happen and they couldn't find him, he turned to beer to ease his breaking heart. You can't stop me!

yeah no, Grateful Dead = kind bud AT LEAST and probably (considering various times Nate has gotten into some psychadelic chicanery) shrooms, maybe even some window pane. "Gone are the days...."

Anyway, even though I mostly did not like this episode, the injection of my favorite band of all time (I saw the Grateful Dead hundreds of times, Jerry Garcia band dozens of times, yeah, Im a dead head ;) ) into an episode even in an "off stage" way made me love the Legends that much more!

[Delphi]

Ugh,  Rip has been back on the ship for literally thirty minutes before he starts keeping secrets again.   I love Arthur,  butt I might be ready for Rip to go.   Dead,  retired,  I don't care.   And Gideon needs to stop going along with him just because she has some little crush.

I don't mind Wally, and I love the actor,  so there is hope.  Plus him not realizing that a moderate level of theft was okay was cute. 

I didn't mind Ray in season 3 even though I am an olicity shipper.   It was more his hypocrisy towards Laurel about vigilantes while planning to do exactly that,  while shooting Roy that I had a problem with. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

11 hours ago, jhlipton said:

On 3/5/2018 at 9:51 PM, kdm07 said:

Ray, Nora isn't who you should be catching feelings for. Find someone else...anyone else who isn't possessed by a demon and who's father isn't the worst.

 

She was a mass-murderer before being possessed by a demon.  I don't care how much you think she can be "redeemed", she will kill any and all of your team without a moment's hesitation.  There's being kind-hearted and being a fool.

Hasn't she been possessed since she was a kid? We saw her in the asylum.

[Sakura12]

I don't think Nora was a mass murderer before Mallus. She's been possessed ever since her parents died when she what, 10? Mallus and her father pushing to Mallus made her a mass murderer. 

I do think she can be redeemed if they can get the demon out of her. 

[CloudySky]

6 hours ago, Delphi said:

Ugh,  Rip has been back on the ship for literally thirty minutes before he starts keeping secrets again.   I love Arthur,  butt I might be ready for Rip to go.   Dead,  retired,  I don't care.   And Gideon needs to stop going along with him just because she has some little crush.

I think the Director Hunter bit was added purposely after the whole conversation about Ava being the highest ranking officer and Sara emphasizing Agent Hunter and Director Sharp in her goodbyes. Unless it's a misdirect, it's probably to do with Ava's secret and Rip is actually the highest ranking officer thus Gideon has to follow his orders. Isn't the Waverider technically property of the Time Bureau and the legends stole/borrowed it so Director trumps Captain.

[tennisgurl]

Oh Ray, when will you not weirdly bond with super villains who try to kill you? Ray truly is a delicate cinnamon bun of sweetness, who just loves people and even gives pep talks to his enemies who are actively torturing him and trying to take over the world. 

Not quite as good as I wanted it to be, but I enjoyed the Darhk family drama, and Ray and Nora are actually kind of great together. They have a ton of chemistry, they must be a fun couple to hang out with in real life. I felt bad that no one noticed that Ray was missing until they noticed he hadst done the dishes! Poor Ray, I would miss you for more than your A+ chore charts! If Nora gets un possessed, I think I could ship it. She has been possessed since she was a kid, I think if she got released from Mallus, they could redeem her. Still, I would watch it, Ray. You might be too sweet for that kind of drama. 

Wally is going to be a fun addition, and I liked him getting the Legends welcome, as opposed to the Flash welcome. "Yeah, we consider light theft to be alright. We call them souvenirs". Also, loved all the stuff about how they have all screwed each other over a million times, and they just get over it when they need to. Gee, it would be so much BETTER if we had the characters screaming about how much they hated each other and stupid betrayals while gritting through their teeth saying "this doesn't change anything Hoss" every five minutes. So much better. No, I am not bitter about certain other shows in this franchise, why do you ask? 

I died when Damion got Cupid on the dating up! DIED. Also, Sara has headshots of DD with a shit eating grin that she throws pointy things at. Whatever works for you, Sara. 

[Starfish35]

20 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Gee, it would be so much BETTER if we had the characters screaming about how much they hated each other and stupid betrayals while gritting through their teeth saying "this doesn't change anything Hoss" every five minutes. So much better. No, I am not bitter about certain other shows in this franchise, why do you ask? 

Now I'm imagining sending certain members of the Legends crew to arbitrate the Civil War crisis situation that is not at all happening on any of the other shows.

[ketose]

21 hours ago, Goldmoon said:

I think Ray was demonized on Arrow because Felicity was dating him and most fans wanted to see her with Ollie.  I didn't think that that version of Ray was so bad, although he was short on the Pollyanna vibe.  I was pretty unhappy that Ray essentially traded that guy's life for Nora's.  If he had just backed up after he had Amaya's necklace last episode, she would be alive, his old Upswipe colleage would be alive and Amaya would have her totem.  This is reminding me of how often Ray screwed up in season one of LoT, and that is not good.

This is something that annoyed me about the vampire shows on CW. Somehow, a vampire that's been alive hundreds of years needs to be "redeemed" at the cost of dozens (hundreds) of mortal lives. It's also lazy writing. Killing is dramatic, but it makes heroes look stupid for not stopping them by extreme means. So, then we get this redemption crap. 

 

18 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

Rip may be a terrible captain and kind of a lousy human being, but he puts together a good team! Also, I got a kick out of his “wait, what?” reaction when Wally and Sara mentioned the wedding-crashing Nazis.

Of course that team is only about 37% of the current team.

[tennisgurl]

8 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Now I'm imagining sending certain members of the Legends crew to arbitrate the Civil War crisis situation that is not at all happening on any of the other shows.

Sara: "wait, you three turned on your team. Your friends, your crew, because they...spied on you once?"

Newbies: "But...they were totally spying on us! Yeah, we spied on them too, and Rene betrayed Oliver in the first place and Curtis disabled Johns arm and we put our petty vendetta against our ex team and some crazy chick over the entire city and Rene attacked Oliver with an ax...but Oliver trusted his wife and brother more than us! We are so totally justified!" 

Sara: "Almost every person on our team as done worse, and we still handle our shit better. Christ, and they call US the screw ups."

Mick: "Can I set um on fire boss?" 

Edited March 7, 2018 by tennisgurl

[Sakura12]

Maybe Sara should have Gideon put team Arrow through Zari's time loop simulation to help them learn team work. It helped Zari out quickly, now she's totally on board with the team and Captain Lance. Maybe even more than the rest of the team since she's the one saying they should tell Sara before they do anything reckless. Lol. 

Edited March 9, 2018 by Sakura12

[jelaine]

31 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Maybe Sara should have Gideon put the team Arrow team through Zari's time loop simulation to help them learn team work. It helped Zari out quickly, now she's totally on board with the team and Captain Lance. Maybe even more than the rest of the team since she's the one saying they should tell Sara before they do anything reckless. Lol. 

While an excellent idea, I really don't want Team Arrow anywhere near Gideon or the Legends.  They don't deserve Gideon's awesomeness. Okay, Felicity and John do, but that's it. Although the thought of what Gideon would do to Oliver and Rene is quite fun. If she put Gary in the garbage chute, where would she put Rene?

[benteen]

Despite the character's overexposure, Darhk vs Darhk was a lot of fun and credit to NM for that.  Ray and Nora was fun too.  Rip apologizes for not keeping Sara and Ava in the loop and then proceeds to erase a key file on Ava in the Waverider computer...typical.

[Chyromaniac]

I loved the butter coffee joke.  That’s apparently Brandon’s thing (he spent like half of his Nerdist podcast interview talking about it), so it’s hilarious that it made it into a script.

As for why Ray came off poorly on Arrow- my ongoing theory with that show is that the producers/writers are secretly Lizardfolk, who fail to grasp human emotions and motives. In Ray’s case, they thought it would be normal for him to recruit Felicity for his company by basically stalking her at her day job, then start a relationship with her while still trying to avenge his murdered fiancée.

[ketose]

1 hour ago, Chyromaniac said:

I loved the butter coffee joke.  That’s apparently Brandon’s thing (he spent like half of his Nerdist podcast interview talking about it), so it’s hilarious that it made it into a script.

As for why Ray came off poorly on Arrow- my ongoing theory with that show is that the producers/writers are secretly Lizardfolk, who fail to grasp human emotions and motives. In Ray’s case, they thought it would be normal for him to recruit Felicity for his company by basically stalking her at her day job, then start a relationship with her while still trying to avenge his murdered fiancée.

Ray's actions were perfectly logical in the Arrow-verse where Malcolm Merlin responds to his wife's murder by leaving his son, joining a group of assassins and coming back to Starling City to kill thousands of mothers of other children.

[Chyromaniac]

6 minutes ago, ketose said:

Ray's actions were perfectly logical in the Arrow-verse where Malcolm Merlin responds to his wife's murder by leaving his son, joining a group of assassins and coming back to Starling City to kill thousands of mothers of other children.

Classic Lizardfolk logic.?

[tennisgurl]

Lizardfolk logic would certainly explain everything about the Newbies in the last few episodes. Lizardfolk might think that one side doing one minor questionable thing is equal to another side hating them with a white hot passion and trying to attack them with an ax or messing with a disability. 

As for Ray, I think they were trying to make him almost a Tony Stark style hero, who was a rich asshole, but one that was confident, funny, and well meaning, and his cockiness was charming and not dickish because he could back it up. They even gave him an Iron Man suit! Unfortunately, they didn't seem to get how to actually write that kind of character, and his cockiness just came across as creepy, and they went WAY too hard on the asshole part of the asshole with a heat of gold archetype. But, and I will give them credit, they actually did realize the character wasn't working, and took the part of his personality that was super enthusiastic and turned that more into Lovable Dork territory, and that helped them salvage the character. Retroactively, you could even fit his early Arrow appearances with his later Arrow/Legends personality with saying he is rather socially awkward and comes on SUPER strong when he likes people, and coming soon after the death of Anna, he was kind of playing a part, and when some time passed, he chilled out. Of course, that doesn't totally work, but considering I originally hated Ray, and now he`s one of my favorite characters, I will take it. 

And yeah, it probably didn't help that he was that season Susan the Reporter (the character who serves as the distraction love interesting before the OTP gets together) of his season, but it wasn't just that. 

[Sakura12]

No matter how crazy LoT gets I always feel the writers keep the characters reactions in character. Whether it's sweet Ray going back to save the evil woman he shot or Sara being like yeah you should kill me if a demon takes over me or Mick being worried about beer while worrying about the team. They act like I think they would act in those situations.