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S01.E07: Many Sainted Men


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Reality police

YEST. 12:37 AM

Thank you, thank you, I was so afraid that Cyrus was dead. I think I can sleep this week. Am i crazy?

No you are not crazy. I too am happy that Cyrus survived as I thought he was killed.

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I'm glad that Laszlo is trying to better the relationships in his life. Well, except with John. And John's so sensitive, Laszlo telling him that Sara will never have feelings for him made John go right back to the bottle. And Laszlo ends the episode with Mary, while poor John is drunk and beat up in an alley. Can he please stop being put through the wringer? :( At least he had a nice scene with Sara. She tries to be tough, but sometimes you just need a hug. :) And she really does seem pretty alone in this world. 

Sara really is doing a lot of the heavy lifting in the investigation. We're finally getting somewhere! So I'm assuming the killer is a former soldier who saw people get massacred, but I wonder why his victims are children? And more specifically boys dressed as girls. I can't quite put the puzzle together yet, which definitely makes the show more compelling! 

And getting back to the ending scene, it was sweet and hot at the same time! I wouldn't be surprised if Laszlo is a virgin. Daniel said in an interview he has no experience with women. You could see how much he was craving the physical intimacy. 

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8 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

 And getting back to the ending scene, it was sweet and hot at the same time! I wouldn't be surprised if Laszlo is a virgin. Daniel said in an interview he has no experience with women. You could see how much he was craving the physical intimacy. 

I literally said 'Aw', because I think that's the first time Laszlo has come across as fully human.

 

3 minutes ago, bosawks said:

Running off to DC with Sarah’s lead, I hope she runs circles around them back in NYC.

I'm wondering at Morgan's sudden attempt at getting involved. It can't be because Connor shot that guy last week, even though only two people know about that right now, because as far as the hoity-toity set knows he went off to Buenos Aires.

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15 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I'm wondering at Morgan's sudden attempt at getting involved.

I think it's simply because he believes having a murderer running around town is bad for business. He said NYC is poised to be an ecomic powerhouse, but that can only happen with compliant workers. And the murders are causing civil unrest.

I also just realized how emasculated John must have felt in this episode. The brothel owner makes a quip about the night he got drugged, JP Morgan offers him a lemonade, and then Laszlo tells him Sara will always just see him as indolent. No wonder he went back to drinking, and was watching guys beat each other up for sport.

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(edited)

Yes, plainly Kreizler should relieve Cyrus of his job. And Stevie. They could do so much better than the worst man in the world.

I thought Sarah openly hated on the rather helpful doctor at Blackwell's. 

Sarah's refusal to explain to Moore while insisting on making it perfectly clear something happened was strange. Everyone would be appalled at the results of her investigation into Kreizler, because it confirms Kreizler is unforgivably creepy. (And his limp arm is a classic emasculation symbol.) And no one would forgive the slap. They would all be much happier with her in charge, with Kreizler as her target. 

Kreizler catching the hint in Roosevelt's observation at the autopsy was the only detecting.

I thought it was Byrnes roping in Morgan and Potter in an effort to keep Kreizler from investigating because he's afraid of anyone poking around and finding out about Van Bergen's murder. 

Stevie kind of liked the apology, though I'm not sure it wasn't for making him wear the dress. But then, he's young enough to hope to get a good job somewhere else, unlike Cyrus. 

K/Mary...Mary is incompetent to give consent, therefore this is a wrong relationship. 

Kreizler is correct about Sarah's opinion of John I think, but I don't think Sarah being kind has anything to do with not making it plain she doesn't think he's good enough. 

This episode is drowning in soap suds.

Edited by sjohnson
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10 minutes ago, sjohnson said:

Mary is incompetent to give consent, therefore this is a wrong relationship. 

Can you say more about why you think this? I don’t necessarily agree; he’s made it clear her ongoing employment is up to her, and nothing suggested her acquiescence was a condition of...well, anything. To me, she seemed eager and elated, like it’s about fucking time, dude. That said, it’s also not 100% cut and dry, so I’m curious as to your perspective.

God, John Moore is so, so dumb. So dumb. 

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21 minutes ago, Pachengala said:

God, John Moore is so, so dumb. So dumb. 

I don't think he's dumb. He just gets drunk and then does dumb things. Not really the same thing. Hopefully he's learned his lesson by now though. Alcohol = bad. Stick to lemonade and egg creams.

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18 minutes ago, Pachengala said:

Can you say more about why you think this? I don’t necessarily agree; he’s made it clear her ongoing employment is up to her, and nothing suggested her acquiescence was a condition of...well, anything. To me, she seemed eager and elated, like it’s about fucking time, dude. That said, it’s also not 100% cut and dry, so I’m curious as to your perspective.

If anything, Mary's silent anger when Laszlo said she was perfectly capable of living on her own - and out of his employ - says she'd had some sort of feelings for him for a while. I definitely think he's emotionally stunted, and he clearly seemed to think he was helping her, especially in light of what Cyrus' niece said to him at the hospital. Unlike John,  who uses physicality and drink to quiet his proverbial demons, Laszlo is so tightly controlled that he's likely never kissed many women before this, if any women.

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Damn, at this point, you'd could start a err, drinking game every time Moore either gets kidnapped or gets the shit kicked out of him.  This show (and I guess book, maybe) are ruthless towards him!

Interesting seeing Cyrus' niece and how she thinks Laszio is just using him at this point.  She's probably right, although I do think Laszio actually does care for him in his own bizarre way.  I'm glad Cyrus seems to be better now at least.

At this point, Sara really seems to be the one who is actually getting shit done.  Now it looks like the killer might be a former solider from the Western, who is trying to copy certain ritual acts that Native Americans use to do.

Yep, don't trust J.P. Morgan for a second!  Loved seeing Michael Ironside and Ted Levine in a scene together.

Ha, I could watch a montage of Connor's face every time he realizes he done fucked up!

Laszio and Mary seem to be finally going somewhere.  Not sure what to think of that since he used to be her doctor and, well, Laszio's all kinds of screwed up in the head. But Daniel Bruhl did an excellent job at showing him soften and finally open up to the idea of not being a anti-social dick all the time.  And once again, Q'orianka Kilcher is doing so much with just facial expressions.

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1 hour ago, sjohnson said:

Yes, plainly Kreizler should relieve Cyrus of his job. And Stevie. They could do so much better than the worst man in the world

I thought Sarah openly hated on the rather helpful doctor at Blackwell's. 

Sarah's refusal to explain to Moore while insisting on making it perfectly clear something happened was strange. Everyone would be appalled at the results of her investigation into Kreizler, because it confirms Kreizler is unforgivably creepy. (And his limp arm is a classic emasculation symbol.) And no one would forgive the slap. They would all be much happier with her in charge, with Kreizler as her target. 

Kreizler catching the hint in Roosevelt's observation at the autopsy was the only detecting.

I thought it was Byrnes roping in Morgan and Potter in an effort to keep Kreizler from investigating because he's afraid of anyone poking around and finding out about Van Bergen's murder. 

Stevie kind of liked the apology, though I'm not sure it wasn't for making him wear the dress. But then, he's young enough to hope to get a good job somewhere else, unlike Cyrus. 

K/Mary...Mary is incompetent to give consent, therefore this is a wrong relationship. 

Kreizler is correct about Sarah's opinion of John I think, but I don't think Sarah being kind has anything to do with not making it plain she doesn't think he's good enough. 

This episode is drowning in soap suds.

Cyrus and Stevie could do a lot worse also. Dr. K seems to treat them with fairness and some modicum of respect. The comment he made about he and Cyrus being friends was very telling. If he feels that a debt has been paid he could offer to pay them for their work.

Sarah is kicking a$s! Go girl! 

Why do you feel Mary is incompetent? She made it very clear what she wanted. That scene was amazing. 

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(edited)

They should retitle this episode from "Many Sainted Men" to "In which the unfortunate John Schuyler Moore gets kidnapped yet again, not once, but twice." Though in all fairness, this time it really wasn't his fault. (Or, at least, the first time wasn't. But apparently he failed to learn his lesson about walking into dangerous situations while painfully drunk in episode 2.)

Anyway, another exciting episode. 

The women of the show really killed it this episode. And though I'm sure there's going to be a lot of praise for Sarah Howard (who is basically making every single significant discovery in the investigation at this point), for me the gold medal goes to Joanna Crawford, who managed to own both Kreitzler and the entire episode with just one scene. When she was first presented, I was almost sure she was only there to thank the good doctor for all his help and promptly leave. Imagine my shock (and delight) when she not only refused his condescension ("If I'm Miss Joanna, are you Mr. Lazlo?"), she then went on to deliver one of the most devastatingly accurate critiques of the good doctor that we've yet heard, far more penetrating than John's or evens Sarah's take downs of him. With one little speech Joanna managed to articulate every criticism I've had about the power imbalance between Lazlo and his staff, while simultaneously highlighting the white privilege and white condescension that permeates her society. She then not only refuses the good doctors charity, she points out exactly how attitudes like his have kept her very capable uncle mucking out stables for most of his adult life, and demonstrates that she has other plans for herself. And her assertion that, in fact, Lazlo needs Cyrus far more than Cyrus needs Lazlo rang painfully true. 

I also enjoyed seeing Mary stand up for herself. Seeing her throw those stupid boots down made me cheer aloud. Because while the good doctor doubtlessly meant well, when he encourages her to "strike out on her own" he is once again blinded by his own condescension-- he failed to take Mary's obvious attachment to him into consideration before making this proposition to her. 

The doctor at the mental institution was subtly quite creepy. To me it was clear that Sarah's discomfort with this "nice man" was due to the fact that he had the power to lock up women, many of them as sane as her. (At this time, all it would take would be two male relatives to claim a woman was mentally ill; and that included "moral insanity", which simply meant sexual behavior deemed unacceptable for women at this time... which could mean anything from adultery to premarital sex.) Furthermore, the doctors blatant oggling of Sarah (when she wasn't looking) was incredibly creepy, when one stops to think about it for a bit: this is the guy who is charged with caring for numerous vulnerable women, none of whom would be believed if they ever dared to accuse him of inappropriate conduct. 

Some other random thoughts:

It was touching to see John ordering an egg cream, probably to remind him of Joseph. (Who had eaten the same thing with John last episode.) 

Connor has really gone rogue. He's always struck me as villainous-- crude, greedy, amoral, lascivious, and none to bright. However, in the past, he's had his professional interests to keep him in line. Now he seems to be falling apart (drinking in increasing amounts, acting impulsively and unpredictably), and is becoming more and more dangerous. He's thus far indulged in revenge fantasies against the ruling class he clearly resents that resulted in murder and assault; one dreads to know what's coming next. 

Edited by Hazel55
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Wow, John managed to get kidnapped and beat up in two separate incidents in the same episode. I think that's a record for him.

Can we keep Joanna and have her give Laszlo a lecture on his shitty behavior every week? I think that Laszlo just has his head so far up his own ass that he never realized any of the things that Joanna said to him until now. I do appreciate that instead of being a dick about it to her or taking his emotions out on someone else, his reaction was to try to thank and apologize to both Cyrus and Stevie.

Mary deserves better than cranky Laszlo, but it's obvious that she's had feelings for him for a very long time so I'm happy for her that she's finally getting what she wants.

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5 minutes ago, AnnieHeights said:

Can someone explain why Lazlo cut the boys body in the beginning and then apologized?   

I wondered about that too and then I thought he might be trying to get inside the mind of the killer. 

Moore has to stop drinking. Its not good for him! 

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2 minutes ago, AnnieHeights said:

Can someone explain why Lazlo cut the boys body in the beginning and then apologized?   

I am assuming that since Lazlo wants 'to get into the head' of the murderer, he felt compelled to know what it felt like to cut into human flesh.  

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41 minutes ago, ShannaB said:

I am assuming that since Lazlo wants 'to get into the head' of the murderer, he felt compelled to know what it felt like to cut into human flesh.  

I wondered about that too and I think you’re right. 

Was this the first time we saw Ezra? Or did I miss seeing him in an earlier episode? 

That finally scene with Mary and Lazlo was really intense and beautiful. 

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17 minutes ago, Straycat80 said:

Was this the first time we saw Ezra? Or did I miss seeing him in an earlier episode? 

He was in the very first episode, when we were first introduced to Laszlo. His parents brought him to the doctor because he likes to start fires, and is a bedwetter.

 

9 hours ago, Hazel55 said:

It was touching to see John ordering an egg cream, probably to remind him of Joseph. (Who had eaten the same thing with John last episode.) 

Yea, that was sweet! I was also wondering if John had hoped to see Joseph there. Maybe to check up on him, especially after what happened to Rosie. You could see that Rosie's death affected Marcus. That was the first time we saw Marcus really see the victims as something more than just a dead body.

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1 hour ago, AnnieHeights said:

Can someone explain why Lazlo cut the boys body in the beginning and then apologized?   

He has stated that he needed to become the killer in many ways, thoughts, feelings, and motivation. I think this was his attempt to try and feel the rush the killer gets.

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(edited)

Lazlo and Mary : probably not a good idea. I get that Mary has feelings for her boss and therapist - but - he is her boss and therapist who practically raised her. Also, Lazlo will probably have internal conflicts related to their different stations in society (a big deal at the time).  This will not end well.. 

Lazlo got his own type of beat-down from Cyrus's niece this time. It was good to help  Lazlo  open his eyes to the people around him, but she was pretty harsh. I almost wanted Lazlo to tell her that she could collect Cyrus' things and give him a place to stay and a job if she thought she could do better. 

Speaking of harsh, it appears that almost every character in the show who is educated and/or wealthy feels entitled to say horrible things to other people. 

Edited by shrewd.buddha
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6 minutes ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Lazlo and Mary : probably not a good idea. I get that Mary has feeling for her boss and therapist - but - he is her boss and therapist who practically raised her. Also, Lazlo will probably have internal conflicts related to their different stations in society (a big deal at the time).  This will not end well.. 

Lazlo got his own type of beat-down from Cyrus's niece this time. It was good to help  Lazlo  open his eyes to the people around him, but she was pretty harsh. I almost wanted Lazlo to tell her that she could collect Cyrus' things and give him a place to stay and a job if she thought she could do better. 

Speaking of harsh, it appears that almost every character in the show who is educated and/or wealthy feels entitled to say horrible things to other people. 

I think that is probably how many people like that act, especially for that time period. 

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Quote

Can someone explain why Lazlo cut the boys body in the beginning and then apologized?   

Quote

He has stated that he needed to become the killer in many ways, thoughts, feelings, and motivation. I think this was his attempt to try and feel the rush the killer gets.

 

Wow, isn't that going down the road of Hannibal Lector??  Didn't he start out as a brilliant Psychiatrist and then end up to be a psychotic killer?

On Sara(h?)  I got the impression that she "strategically" let it out that Kreizler had caused her harm..  But again IMHO when she went in for the hug.. they showed this look on her face that seemed to say she was manipulating Moore to go after Kreizler for it..  So I think she is playing a game between the 2 dudes.., which is the part of this show I am not interested in.  

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(edited)
15 minutes ago, tiredofwork said:

Wow, isn't that going down the road of Hannibal Lector??  Didn't he start out as a brilliant Psychiatrist and then end up to be a psychotic killer?

On Sara(h?)  I got the impression that she "strategically" let it out that Kreizler had caused her harm..  But again IMHO when she went in for the hug.. they showed this look on her face that seemed to say she was manipulating Moore to go after Kreizler for it..  So I think she is playing a game between the 2 dudes.., which is the part of this show I am not interested in.  

I was thinking about why she is doing this if this is the case. It seems to me when it comes to romance, she is on the sidelines. So maybe this is her chance to play the game? 

Edited by libgirl2
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18 minutes ago, tiredofwork said:

On Sara(h?)  I got the impression that she "strategically" let it out that Kreizler had caused her harm..  But again IMHO when she went in for the hug.. they showed this look on her face that seemed to say she was manipulating Moore to go after Kreizler for it..  So I think she is playing a game between the 2 dudes.., which is the part of this show I am not interested in.  

Hmm, interesting. I didn't get that impression at all. John is his best friend, so I think she should have flat out told him what Laszlo did to her. They could commiserate on what a jerk he is. I think Sara has zero experience with men, and doesn't really know what she wants. I think for a hot second, Sara might have been interested in Laszlo, but that quickly went away when he wasn't respecting her opinions. I think she likes John as a friend, and because she seems to have no family, just wanted a shoulder to cry on. Perhaps romantic feelings will develop for John, but I really do think she has no romantic interests in Laszlo at this point.

Also, her name is spelled Sara in the book. Most people on here seem to write Sarah, which I don't really have a problem with since that's how I spell my name. :) But I get annoyed when people spell my name without an H, so I guess I'm trying to respect a fictional character by spelling her name correctly? lol

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1 hour ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Lazlo got his own type of beat-down from Cyrus's niece this time. It was good to help  Lazlo  open his eyes to the people around him, but she was pretty harsh. I almost wanted Lazlo to tell her that she could collect Cyrus' things and give him a place to stay and a job if she thought she could do better. 

Millenials: the 1896 edition. I thought that was unrealistic, although necessary for the storytelling. The class differential has been dramaticized over and over throughout the series. It was jarring to see someone who wasn't Sean Young or Moore's grandmother sound so entitled.

Someone who's not born to privilege would probably appreciate the access they have to a better life than what we see of the non-moneyed class. Stevie, for example. Presumably Cyrus as well. That's a pretty cushy gig, and he gets to enjoy friendship with his employer. I did chuckle a bit when Lazlo said offhand that he had booted Mary out of her room so Cyrus could recover in it.

What exactly did Cyrus's niece think he could do that would give him the same type of housing and benefits? Cyrus was put into danger the same way the Forensic Duo and Moore were. Lazlo may be all messed up, but he's always been shown as kind to Cyrus. With the exception of Mary, he shows kindness to people over whom he has authority. He's horrid to people of the same class--Moore, Sara.

I thought it was telling that he slapped Sara, but not Cyrus' niece.

The notion that Sara might be playing them all is an intriguing one, whether or not it is the case, it might be something Lazlo suspects and acts on (whether or not consciously). He does respect her intellect and more than probably she's tapped into his innate fear of women (as in the scene with his former client and Dominant--also intelligent and manipulative).

Sara, Mary and Cyrus' niece are all women who are out of context in some way, in that they're employed, educated and at least in Sara and Mary's case, have some mental health backstory that suggests danger. When Lazlo tried to mansplain the music that was playing to Mary, he caught himself and said, "Oh right, but of course you know that." Maybe it's a link between his having played Chopin in the newspaper clipping Sara found, and now Mary's familiarity with the music he enjoys?

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3 hours ago, pezgirl7 said:
3 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

Was this the first time we saw Ezra? Or did I miss seeing him in an earlier episode? 

He was in the very first episode, when we were first introduced to Laszlo. His parents brought him to the doctor because he likes to start fires, and is a bedwetter.

You just know he's going to hurt or kill that monkey.

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1 hour ago, Kaiju Ballet said:

What exactly did Cyrus's niece think he could do that would give him the same type of housing and benefits? Cyrus was put into danger the same way the Forensic Duo and Moore were. Lazlo may be all messed up, but he's always been shown as kind to Cyrus. With the exception of Mary, he shows kindness to people over whom he has authority. He's horrid to people of the same class--Moore, Sara.

At the start of the series, Laszlo tells John that he needs him around because people like John a lot more, and because they like him more they'll tolerate Laszlo' s rudeness and condescension. I think Kreizler is a lot smarter than John, if only because he hasn't pickled his brain quite so often, but he's not good with people at all, at least one on one. Mary practically had to throw that boot at his head to get him to see her as something other than his housekeeper, and that it's her who kicked against his attempt at a dismissal is interesting by itself. Cyrus and Stevie told him he didn't have to apologize - Stevie a little reluctantly - and Sara for whatever reason didn't tell John that Laszlo struck her.

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The only thing "wrong" with Mary is that she's mute

Spoiler

and in the book, the reason she killed her father was because he molested her.  Laszlo was able to get her to talk

nothing else is "wrong" with Mary IMO.  Her mind is just as sharp as anybody else's.  I think at that time, and in this time as well, people assumed someone was mentally challenged if they didn't speak.  Not always the case IMO.

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Oh, John.  Again?

Both Lazlo and Sara are so socially awkward.  Peas in a pod. Do readers speculate that they both suffer from Aspergers?

I love Ted Levine. He has such an expressive face. 

My great grandparents had a bakery on 52nd St at the turn of the century. I keep hoping one of the characters will pop in for a strudel.  

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7 hours ago, Kaiju Ballet said:

When Lazlo tried to mansplain the music that was playing to Mary, he caught himself and said, "Oh right, but of course you know that." 

He didn't catch himself though, he stopped because Mary signed "I know". If she hadn't, I think he probably wouldn't have kept going.

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On 3/6/2018 at 2:02 AM, Hazel55 said:

She then not only refuses the good doctors charity, she points out exactly how attitudes like his have kept her very capable uncle mucking out stables for most of his adult life, and demonstrates that she has other plans for herself. And her assertion that, in fact, Lazlo needs Cyrus far more than Cyrus needs Lazlo rang painfully true. 

She is taking his charity though.  She thanks him for paying for her schooling and says she intends to pay him back.  Until she does, it's a loan or charity.   I get that she was angry about Cyrus getting hurt but I was just like "where is this coming from".   I guess the show wanted a metaphorical slap in the face to Laszlo to get him back for the physical one he gave Sara.

I'm not saying she didn't make some good points but the scene felt misplaced.  Cyrus wasn't the only one on the stakeout and unfortunately for him represented the biggest target, so to the murderer, the biggest threat.  

On 3/6/2018 at 9:28 PM, Raikas said:

He didn't catch himself though, he stopped because Mary signed "I know". If she hadn't, I think he probably wouldn't have kept going.

Yep she did.  I didn't think Laszlo was mansplaining either - I took it as his version of nervous babbling.  He wasn't being condescending (for once), he was, in his own way, fluttering, which was why Mary took his hand first.  Go Mary, if you want it, go get it, LOL.

I caught up on the episodes and though some of it is overwrought, I really like the cast, except for Roosevelt's portrayal.  I was surprised to like Dakota Fanning as Sara but I think she is playing it just right - Sara has to be buttoned up in this society and her enthusiasm is just barely repressed.  She is loving being a part of the investigation but can't show it outside of the group.  I think she wanted to tell John about the slap but didn't because of the John/Laszlo friendship.  

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On 3/6/2018 at 11:41 AM, tiredofwork said:

On Sara(h?)  I got the impression that she "strategically" let it out that Kreizler had caused her harm..  But again IMHO when she went in for the hug.. they showed this look on her face that seemed to say she was manipulating Moore to go after Kreizler for it.. 

I also wondered about the look on her face. It made it seem that the hug was more deliberate than spontaneous. I'm not sure that was the intent of the scene or just due to the particular acting choice, however.

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On 3/15/2018 at 7:47 PM, Terrafamilia said:

On Sara?  I got the impression that she "strategically" let it out that Kreizler had caused her harm..  But again IMHO when she went in for the hug.. they showed this look on her face that seemed to say she was manipulating Moore to go after Kreizler for it.. 

Sara does not seem the type to want to play femme fatale. I read the scene as her NOT wanting Moore to go after Kreizler, but still being upset about the slap so wanting the hug.

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54 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

Sara does not seem the type to want to play femme fatale. I read the scene as her NOT wanting Moore to go after Kreizler, but still being upset about the slap so wanting the hug.

I think Sara understood why he slapped her. Not that it makes it OK. Dakota said she talked to Daniel about that scene, and neither of them took it as an act of violence, but of just him not knowing how to react to all the emotion he was feeling. But I still hope he apologizes at some point!

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On 3/6/2018 at 8:50 PM, Haleth said:

Oh, John. Again?

Both Lazlo and Sara are so socially awkward.  Peas in a pod. Do readers speculate that they both suffer from Aspergers?

I love Ted Levine. He has such an expressive face. 

My great grandparents had a bakery on 52nd St at the turn of the century. I keep hoping one of the characters will pop in for a strudel.  

lol I cringe every time I see an alley, you know he’s going to enter it and sustain another beating! Stick to the public road, John! 

I was happy to see Ted Levine in this, he’s always  superb. 

Cool about the bakery. Mmm, I’m suddenly craving strudel!

Edited by ferjy
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