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ElectricBoogaloo

S14.E10: Personal Jesus

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5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Despite all the deaths that occurred in this episode, the saddest thing this week was Bailey and Ben having to have The Talk with Tuck.

 

 

Agreed. That was a a full-on gut kick.

Edited by betsyboo
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I thought the whole thing with the kid getting shot was a long time coming and handled pretty well, for the most part. I can think of nothing more tragic than two parents having to sit down and explain to their son why they had to be extra careful around the police simply because of the color of their skin. Although it seems likely Tucker was already well aware of this fact of life. It's not like he's never seen TV.

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The Talk with Tuck (tragically spot on and vividly true, not political in any way, shape, or form);

It may be that some found this story "political" because of the way Jackson was behaving towards the cops. I have to admit, the dialogue was a little ham-fisted and definitely serviced an agenda. I personally didn't mind it and the ultimate scene with Tucker, Miranda and Ben was very moving, but yeah - it felt a little forced in the beginning. I think part of that is because this seems like something the hospital should be seeing over and over again, and this episode almost made it seem like this was the first time it ever happened.

BTW - who was the kid Tucker was hanging around with all day long? Some random classmate or friend?

I do have to say, the kid who tried to cut his hand off because he was masturbating? Was really stupid. Someone that much of a danger to himself should probably be in intensive therapy. (Let's face it, it's not like he wouldn't just switch to the other hand anyway.)

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8 hours ago, jabbi said:

I cried at the end when Bailey and Ben had that talk with Tuck. That was the most powerful part of this episode IMO.

Agreed. That was the stand-out scene and very effective storytelling. I thought it was a great way to deal with an issue in a single episode.

The domestic violence storyline in this episode didn't work. It was weak sauce. The fiancee's turnaround seemed too fast. She was all of a sudden way too clearsighted and articulate about her situation overnight. And killing him off in a random hit-and-run was too easy. Probably the best bit was when Paul said "You sound crazy", and all three people in the room firmly contradicted him at the same time.

If the show wanted to tell a story about domestic violence and do it properly, they'd need more than two episodes. You'd need a longer arc. Ideally they would introduce a new regular character who gets romantically involved with one of the main characters, and then the show would portray the possessiveness, controlling behaviour, subtle undermining, and gaslighting leading up to the violence. And after each escalating act of violence, they'd show him (or her) being really contrite, upset, and sweet. For a while, it would be this horrible secret shared only by the couple and the viewers. So that the viewers would be first, equally taken in by this charming, attractive new character, and then, desperate for the victim to tell someone! (But maybe the show already has done a story like that in a previous season?)

Still, I think it all helps. Better to cover this issue in a quick, shallow way than not at all.

Poor Matthew! It would be hard not to blame April, even just for the comfort of having a target for your anger.

Edited by Kirsty
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The thing I liked best, although liked is not a great word here, about Bailey and Ben talking to TUcker is that he's older than most of my friends were when they had equivalent talks (8-10 seems to be common, I glow in the dark so I'm just going by anecdotes).  And at first that might make it seem like something being shoe horned into the episode but I can genuinely believe that Bailey's characterization allows for the idea that she'd have put this off. I can't really articulate why; it's not just living in a nice neighborhood because as Jackson says, that's sometimes worse.  But looking back on what she's dealt with in Grey's land, the sale of the hospital, becoming chief, her OCD and tying that all in with her core personality (as inconsistently written as that's sometimes been), it all works that TUck isn't getting this talk until several years after other non-white children. 

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13 hours ago, Kirsty said:

 

If the show wanted to tell a story about domestic violence and do it properly, they'd need more than two episodes. You'd need a longer arc. They would introduce a new regular character who gets romantically involved with one of the main characters, and then the show would portray the possessiveness, controlling behaviour, subtle undermining, and gaslighting leading up to the violence. And then after each escalating act of violence, they'd show him (or her) being really contrite, upset and sweet. And for a while, it would be this horrible secret shared only by the couple and the viewers. So that the viewers would be first, equally taken in by this charming, attractive, new character, and then, desperate for the victim to tell someone! 

This might sound strange to say but I think that this domestic violence plot suffered from too much build up.

The audience first met Jo after she left her abusive relationship and gives details of it in drips and drabs over a couple of years. When we eventually meet Paul, Jo isn’t even in the episode, her boyfriend and hence all of Jos co workers in theory find out Paul’s name, job and physical description.

By this episode  what was there really left to tell? Most of the traditional high stakes domestic violence plot points as you have stated have already been  resolved off screen or isn’t possible because of what has already been told.

To work “ True Colours” should not have happened and it should have been in season 13 after the reveal to Deluca.

Edited by Pink ranger
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2 hours ago, anna0852 said:

What happened with Karen (Matthew's wife) actually underscores that Arizona is not qualified as an OBGYN. She is a fetal surgeon and a pediatric surgeon. She clearly knows how to do a C-section which I can see her needing to know how to do if a fetal surgery goes south but her management of a normal vaginal delivery apparently leaves much to be desired. It's my understanding that an OBGYN would have known to keep an eye on the blood pressure. Post-natal pre-eclampsia is rare but it can happen and somebody who is not trained in that particular specialty is probably not going to know to look for it. I would not be surprised at all if Matthew were to bring a malpractice suit. And unfortunately while April is essentially blameless in this I wouldn't be surprised if he tried to sue her as well. I certainly didn't read him as making any sort of peace with her, not that he's required to, and the death of his wife after April delivered their child would most certainly make most people in Matthew's position consider their legal options.

I didn’t even think about a malpractice suit; I just hope it’s not a repeat of the guy who lost his wife that went on a shooting spree. I do wonder if we’ve seen the last of Matthew. 

Did Miranda and Ben know the boy who had been shot?  It seemed like they knew exactly who to call in regards to his parents. 

I’m not a Maggie fan, but I wish we would have seen a bit more of her and the boys in this episode. Instead of science camp, I would have preferred her teaching them something medical related.

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Is it Petty that I'm still mad at greys for letting Jo off the hook for almost killing Chest Pecwell ot whatever his real name was.. Cuzi was never clear if he hit her or just grabbed her.. But I do know the went nuts in him and then he basically got forced to resign... I mean we are way past it now but I always felt a certain kind if way abt how that went down 

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18 minutes ago, Pink ranger said:

This might sound strange to say but I think that this domestic violence plot suffered from too much build up.

I actually agree with this. It seems as though Krista Vernoff was brought in to tie up loose ends so that she can start some newer stuff. She got rid of Riggs and Minnick. Broke up Owen and Amelia. Made April interesting again. And of course the Jo’s ex stuff. 

To be fair, the Jo’s ex stuff was initially put on the back burner for Sandra Oh’s exit. And then Dempsey left the season after that so it was backburnered again. And then it just kinda hung there for awhile until this season.

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Another thing that hit home for me was Jackson's interaction with the cop who immediately jumped to say he wasn't racist... I can't begin to numerate the times I've had a point of mine hijacked by someone claiming I called their actions or ideas racist... Bias which as he said is something we all have and can work on is sooo different. I was really happy that exchange happened 

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4 minutes ago, CED9 said:

To be fair, the Jo’s ex stuff was initially put on the back burner for Sandra Oh’s exit. And then Dempsey left the season after that so it was backburnered again. And then it just kinda hung there for awhile until this season.

Do you have a source for this? First time I've heard of it, and I'm interested in learning more. 

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6 minutes ago, Layne said:

Do you have a source for this? First time I've heard of it, and I'm interested in learning more. 

I will have to do some digging later, but if I recall correctly, it was a pre S11 interview with Shonda where she was discussing generally speaking what would be upcoming and she mentioned diving deep into Jo/Alex and Jo’s past...and then a few months later Dempsey announced he was leaving so it got shifted again.

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Jackson’s contest:

I like the idea for the fact that it’ll bring the cast together for one goal and this show is at its strongest when larger groups are participating in one thing. I’m looking forward to them being competitive.

I feel bad that april got manipulated into running it but now that she can’t get out of it I hope she goes full on and makes it the hardest competition ever. 

Part of me also hopes this blows up in Jackson’s face. You can’t tell me there is nothing else without your name on it or being funded by your families foundation. And the fact that you fund it gives this the same issue has if you were competing for a Harper Avery. But most of all I want to see Jackson lose cause then we’ll see his true intentions. Will he just be glad he was allowed to compete and rate equally with his colleagues? Or will he be mad as hell thinking he was cheated somehow? How’s he going to feel if he loses and april is the judge? Will he belittle April’s abilities to make this whole competition less than and make it seem like he was cheated. The drama from his is endless.

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4 hours ago, NeverLate said:

I don't think so, no, he abused his power, that was the takeaway for me. Nobody would believe the women over him.

She was his wife!

who was in an abusive relationship with him and fled from him. From an outside perspective it looks funky that he had a second accident in the hospital where his estranged wife worked, while said estranged wife, her boyfriend and his best friend were the only ones in the room with him. And then estranged wife gets to make the decision to pull the plug. Meredith was already counselling them to get out of town even though she knew they weren't behind the initial accident i would think she'd want to protect Jo from any chances of further investigation.

Edited by MrWhyt
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Is the new award only for GSM hospital? That's what it seems like with the plot of having everyone compete against each other with one of their own (April) being in charge. If this were a more widespread event, you'd think they'd get an actual non-biased committee to run it. 

In which case, how prestigious can the award really be if the only people who get to play are your coworkers? At most this is coming off as bragging rights. 

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On a good note, I wonder if this whole thing with Paul is ultimately going to help Jo understand Alex a bit better? One of the biggest sticking points of their relationship has been Alex's friendship with Meredith. Jo has been very vocal that it's not something she's quite comfortable with and doesn't fully understand. Having now been on the receiving end of Meredith's protectiveness and loyalty I wonder if now Jo will be more at peace with that friendship. It's certainly seem to take her by surprise how easily Meredith was willing to cover for them and help them get out of town. Jo certainly didn't seem to know what to make of that while Alex took it in stride.

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This is the first episode in a very long time that made me really connect with the show. The talk was magnificent. I replayed it for my husband and we both agreed that the fact that we never even considered having this talk with our now 17 year old son is the very definition of white privilege. I teared up watching that scene. 

I also loved the complexity of April's arc in this episode, particularly the conversation with the boy toward the end about literal versus figurative language in the Bible. April is a Christian character I think other Christians can be happy to see on tv. I'm sick of seeing the stereotype of homophobic, judgmental Christian. It's a relief to see a Christian have faith, be reasonable, and have moments of real struggle dealing with the contradictions in the Bible. Sarah Drew is doing a beautiful job with this arc. Now I wish they'd stop making her play the shrieking, over-excited, slightly crazy version of the character as the actress is far more powerful when she plays this version of April. 

Finally, I continue to like this version of Jo, Alex, and Meredith, but I also agree that these scenes should have occurred at least three seasons ago. It took far too long for this payoff, which lessons the emotional punch of it. 

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I heard Tuck say "My name is William George Bailey." Tucker is his father's name., and I know where George came from. Where was the Tuck in his name from?

Is Bethany Joy Lenz related to Kay Lenz? She sure looks like her, but I saw nothing online to that effect.

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Wasn't it established in no less than the previous episode that Arizona is not an OB? So, why was she on the Matthew's wife's case after she had operated on the baby? Also, she seemed surprised about the woman's blood pressure, but did not act like it was something she had missed. Whose job was it to get it?

I don't know, it reminded me of the case Meredith and Nathan had a couple of seasons ago where they treated this woman, and they spent the whole time chatting her up and joking around, and Meredith kept sending Perfect Penny to Amelia for updates on another case, much to Amelia's great displeasure, as she was still in the "YOU KILLED MY BROTHER!!!!!11" phase - until they were both like "OMG, this woman is dying, we need to do something NOW!", all in vain of course. Like then, there seems to be something off and a piece of the puzzle missing in this case. More than anything it looked like a plot device to put April through some additional torture.

And speaking of April, this episode was BRUTAL on her. I'm really curious to see where she goes from here, with the obligatory "A woman is having a hard time, so she sleeps with the first man she encounters" TV trope already out of the way.

I found Maggie more endearing than she's been in a long time. Or possibly ever. Her dorky enthusiasm rang true and brought at least a bit of light into this otherwise extremely dark piece.

Edited by Joana
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So I had HELLP with my middle daughter while still pregnant. I was in such intense pain, I was in tears. It was like this band of pain compressing my organs radiating from my back. 

I'm somewhat surprised they didn't have her complain of any other pain. 

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11 hours ago, jschoolgirl said:

I heard Tuck say "My name is William George Bailey." Tucker is his father's name., and I know where George came from. Where was the Tuck in his name from?

Is Bethany Joy Lenz related to Kay Lenz? She sure looks like her, but I saw nothing online to that effect.

He’s called Tuck after his dad. It was the tiniest mention in his birth episode. 

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1 hour ago, jabbi said:

He’s called Tuck after his dad. It was the tiniest mention in his birth episode. 

Yes — I think he stated the full name as William George Bailey Jones. So they called him Tuck after Bailey’s husband, Tucker Jones. I think “William” is after Bailey’s father. I wish they would mention Tucker - or in this case, GA could have at least thrown in an aside about discussing “the talk” with Tucker before doing it. Not taking away from the power of the scene, but I would have expected Bailey to involve the dad in such an important convo. (PS I miss Cress Williams. #longlivethehart)

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I was wondering why Arizona was being so hostile to April, between the "Leave that poor man alone" and then demanding to know why April didn't get her immediately when Matthew's wife showed signs of trouble. Umm, didn't Arizona cheat on/humiliate Callie after promising to love her forever, in front of their friends and family? And isn't Arizona the fetal medicine doc who was supposed to be on top of the wife's emergency care?  I was thinking Arizona needs to shut it and do her job, rather than giving other people a hard time.  It's not like April asked for Matthew and his wife to be brought there.  Sheesh.

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I have to say I am really thankful that I live in a country where I didn't have to have the talk, nor my brother. (and honestly, when they mentioned the Talk, I legitimately went, why are they going to talk about sex? like how does that even apply?) I couldn't imagine living in a place where you have to tell your kids how to act when dealing with the police, and that is just really really sad, (same with a majority of the things you read in the headlines - rape/sexual culture, so on and so forth)


For me - and I know i've said this a lot during the past, - the more uncomfortable thing is when this show (most shows) deal with religion - because I do feel it's just as a touchy subject as most things, (and for me personally, it's just as impactful as a lot of things, because for many people, faith, spiritual belief is what defines you as a person, and when you lose that, or seriously, significantly have to question it  you lose a big part of yourself - as seen by April's spiral downward, and dead-eyes shot).  but what bothers me is - and this has been something this show truly has dropped the ball from the get go - 

April had no business talking spiritual matters/beliefs with that kid. that's the parents/pastor/spiritual advisor's job. Clearly this kid needed to talk to someone if he legitimately thought he should cut his hand off for masutrbating and I think ithere would have been a lot of intriguing paths they could have taken with it (which is why i wish the Paul storyline wasn't in this episode). but it got into matter that as a doctor - and not a trained spiritual leader shouldn't be discussing. just my point of view. 

Religion is a big part of who I am, and I do remember the questions that the kid asked , and heck, that April brought up in the end, and just challenging how you need to get things from the Bible, and what it is in a world that's very science/non-(religious) faith based, and how you walk that line. I think someone said the word Nuanced (that' what Sarah Drew brought up), but I feel often Hollywood tends to erase the nuances, and very rarely shows strong "normal" (ie: not homophobic (Callie's parents), not rabid "I MUST BE A VIRGIN, JESUS WILL HATE ME!" (April, though that's changed a lot ) religious types on television, and I find it interesting that in a day and age where a lot of "people" strive to see themselves represented, as of yet there isn't that 'balanced Christian' who is more 'traditional valued' on the show, and isn't mocked for being religious, wanting to be a virgin, believing in core Biblical values, but still (like me :D ) treats people the way that she wants to be treated etc without being a punchline. Now if this is what April develops into, then yay, but if not... (sigh). 

 

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2 hours ago, Bringonthedrama said:

I was wondering why Arizona was being so hostile to April, between the "Leave that poor man alone" and then demanding to know why April didn't get her immediately when Matthew's wife showed signs of trouble. Umm, didn't Arizona cheat on/humiliate Callie after promising to love her forever, in front of their friends and family? And isn't Arizona the fetal medicine doc who was supposed to be on top of the wife's emergency care?  I was thinking Arizona needs to shut it and do her job, rather than giving other people a hard time.  It's not like April asked for Matthew and his wife to be brought there.  Sheesh.

Arizona can be a really crappy friend/person when she wants to be. April didn’t deserve that.

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2 hours ago, Bringonthedrama said:

I was wondering why Arizona was being so hostile to April, between the "Leave that poor man alone" and then demanding to know why April didn't get her immediately when Matthew's wife showed signs of trouble. Umm, didn't Arizona cheat on/humiliate Callie after promising to love her forever, in front of their friends and family? And isn't Arizona the fetal medicine doc who was supposed to be on top of the wife's emergency care?  I was thinking Arizona needs to shut it and do her job, rather than giving other people a hard time.  It's not like April asked for Matthew and his wife to be brought there.  Sheesh.

If I remember correctly, Arizona was also the friend who told Jackson about Samuel before April could have a chance to. Not a great friend, IMO. 

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Loved loved loved April’s story line!! Faith is at times hard to hold onto. Mathew showing up was fabulous!! I wonder if he will be on the new show, maybe reconnect with April? “The talk” is where I had problems. The police responded to a break in. That’s what the police know, that’s it!! The boy reaches into his jacket for a phone, the police don’t know that. They only know someone, anyone, is breaking into a home and is reaching for something. Sorry folks, black or white, the police are acting on the information they have at the time. “The talk”? Is for EVERYONE that has to face the police. Put your hands out. Stand still. Do what your told. That’s is our responsibility as members of the public. Black or white, mistakes are made, that’s just the way life is. 

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7 minutes ago, betsyboo said:

If I remember correctly, Arizona was also the friend who told Jackson about Samuel before April could have a chance to. Not a great friend, IMO. 

I don’t care if Arizona felt she had the moral high ground, she didn’t even give april a warning or the ultimatum and low key made that situation a lot worse then it had to be. 

Not to mention Arizona was on the “shun April” train when she stepped in for Meredith all the while doing the freak nasty with minnick and working with her. 

This episode it was meant to frame her horrible day but Arizona would never have talked to another attending like that and it’s something they all do. 

2 minutes ago, vickieviolet said:

Loved loved loved April’s story line!! Faith is at times hard to hold onto. Mathew showing up was fabulous!! I wonder if he will be on the new show, maybe reconnect with April? “The talk” is where I had problems. The police responded to a break in. That’s what the police know, that’s it!! The boy reaches into his jacket for a phone, the police don’t know that. They only know someone, anyone, is breaking into a home and is reaching for something. Sorry folks, black or white, the police are acting on the information they have at the time. “The talk”? Is for EVERYONE that has to face the police. Put your hands out. Stand still. Do what your told. That’s is our responsibility as members of the public. Black or white, mistakes are made, that’s just the way life is. 

That argument holds no weight when there is video evidence of white people waving guns around at police and every precaution is made to not kill them but a black body reaches into his pocket for his phone and he’s shot on sight. Like yeah we all have a talk with our kids about how to speak to cops, but the difference is the cops statistically are killing black men and women, and children dead like they are in a war zone, while white murderes get Burger King and bullet proof vests while being escorted. 

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22 minutes ago, moonorchid said:

I don’t care if Arizona felt she had the moral high ground, she didn’t even give april a warning or the ultimatum and low key made that situation a lot worse then it had to be. 

Not to mention Arizona was on the “shun April” train when she stepped in for Meredith all the while doing the freak nasty with minnick and working with her. 

This episode it was meant to frame her horrible day but Arizona would never have talked to another attending like that and it’s something they all do. 

Agreed, Arizona was a shitty friend to April - like most of them, she seems to feel that she can get away with being nasty to April (which in effect I suppose she can, since April's forgiving of this kind of behaviour). The way she was talking to April the entire episode, I mean can you imagine Cristina/Meredith, George/Izzie or Mark/Callie taking that tone with each other for no reason? I certainly can't. It highlights one of the problems with these later seasons of Grey's: the show was always built around intense, interesting friendships, and that's been sorely lacking lately. Sometimes I think that loss is felt even more keenly than the loss of the romantic power couples.

Buuut omg this was a great episode for April! This is possibly the first time I've found her interesting and relatable, finally she's been written as an adult with real internal conflict. Her previous faith problems (like fighting with Jackson about it, or freaking out about losing her virginity) fell very flat for me, because she was basically written to believe in God the way a child believes in Santa Claus. There was no depth, no nuance, we didn't get to see her really engage with it like she finally got to do here. Even the intern hookup worked for me. Sure it's cliche, but it was a very effective metaphor for her "fall". Very much looking forward to her journey - and hoping she finally finds a friend or two who'll treat her right (step up, Owen! You may suck at romantic relationships, but you could at least be a good friend/mentor for April - god knows you need *something* to do besides slouching around looking grim).

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28 minutes ago, tapplum said:

Agreed, Arizona was a shitty friend to April - like most of them, she seems to feel that she can get away with being nasty to April (which in effect I suppose she can, since April's forgiving of this kind of behaviour). The way she was talking to April the entire episode, I mean can you imagine Cristina/Meredith, George/Izzie or Mark/Callie taking that tone with each other for no reason? I certainly can't. It highlights one of the problems with these later seasons of Grey's: the show was always built around intense, interesting friendships, and that's been sorely lacking lately. Sometimes I think that loss is felt even more keenly than the loss of the romantic power couples.

Buuut omg this was a great episode for April! This is possibly the first time I've found her interesting and relatable, finally she's been written as an adult with real internal conflict. Her previous faith problems (like fighting with Jackson about it, or freaking out about losing her virginity) fell very flat for me, because she was basically written to believe in God the way a child believes in Santa Claus. There was no depth, no nuance, we didn't get to see her really engage with it like she finally got to do here. Even the intern hookup worked for me. Sure it's cliche, but it was a very effective metaphor for her "fall". Very much looking forward to her journey - and hoping she finally finds a friend or two who'll treat her right (step up, Owen! You may suck at romantic relationships, but you could at least be a good friend/mentor for April - god knows you need *something* to do besides slouching around looking grim).

As sad as it made me to see april so empty and “dead” in the end, this is the most excited I’ve been for april ever, and I love April! I’ve wanted a more mature, adult, nuanced introspection of her faith and what it truly means to her for a long time, but this show has only ever used it as a plot device to continue to deliver drama with her and Jackson and isolate april from everyone else. 

This is the first time I feel the story is “what does faith and Christianity/religion truly mean?” More then the usual “how can we portray april as a religious nut?” 

I’m beyond excited to see where this goes, plus “dark April” is the most intriguing April has been ever!

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7 hours ago, betsyboo said:

Yes — I think he stated the full name as William George Bailey Jones. So they called him Tuck after Bailey’s husband, Tucker Jones. I think “William” is after Bailey’s father. I wish they would mention Tucker - or in this case, GA could have at least thrown in an aside about discussing “the talk” with Tucker before doing it. Not taking away from the power of the scene, but I would have expected Bailey to involve the dad in such an important convo. (PS I miss Cress Williams. #longlivethehart)

While I loved the talk at the end, Bailey was really irritating me at the beginning of the episode.  Tucker was raising Tuck, practically single handedly.  That's fair, she was the money maker and Tucker was the primary caregiver.  But with her marriage to Ben, she seems to think that Ben is the new Tucker.  Sure Ben loves the kid, but Tuck has a father and one who was the primary parent for years.  Ben is working full time and yet Bailey seems to place so much responsibility for Tuck on him.  I know the whole scene was to show Bailey is still upset with Ben because of his frequently changing career choices, but she can really grate when it comes to her husbands.

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There has been some previous mentions that Tuck Sr. is more the 'fun parent' these days. Tuck Jr appears to live full time with Bailey and Ben and Ben has actively advocated to be a more involved parent with him. 

As far as Sr. not being there for The Talk, I assume after the events of the day Bailey didn't want to wait. Plus Cress Williams hasn't been seen on the show since around seasons 4-5 and might not have been available.

I thought the scene with The Talk was made even more heartbreaking after seeing Tuck's innocent glee earlier with Maggie's science experiments. He was so clearly a awestruck kid in that moment but later you could *see* his childhood fading in that conversation with his mother and stepfather. 

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If Karen's natural low blood pressure wasn't on her chart, I think Matthew has a good malpractice suit in the offing.

On 1/26/2018 at 8:13 AM, jabbi said:

I didn’t care for the way Paul’s story ended, either. Also, am I really expected to believe that Paul would haul off the rails in front of THE Meredith Grey? Isn’t he supposed to be a general surgeon as well? For someone who seems really concerned about his career, he sure doesn’t mind showing his a** in front of one of the most prestigious surgeons in the country right now.

It's true to life for that kind of narcissistic abuser.  He had got away with it for so long and he was so furious that she defied him that he wouldn't care who was around.

On 1/26/2018 at 9:41 AM, Laurie4H said:

I thought the talk with Tuck was completely contrived for a political agenda. 

Is it true?  I don't live in the States but from watching the news it seems that this is something African-Americans have to tell their kids because that's the reality they live in. It's seems to me that the political agenda is to hide the reality of being African-American in 2018 and pretend it's not happening.

Honestly, I'm utterly appalled that three centuries after their ancestors were forced to go to the States in slave ships, African-Americans still have to fear for their lives for such acts as going out to buy candy while wearing a hoodie.

5 hours ago, vickieviolet said:

Again, based on the information the police had at the time, they acted within their scope. 

I thought the boy told them that it was his house and he forgot his key. That was part of the information the police had.

On 1/26/2018 at 10:48 AM, LexieLily said:

They kept saying how Paul is/was a big and successful doctor, and powerful. Since we learned that Jo was still legally his wife does this mean presumably she has scenes to look forward to of inheriting a great deal of money? 

I'd like to think that Jo gave the money away to an anti-abuse charity.

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I can think of a million different ways that the police could have handled it besides shooting a 12 year old in the neck.

 

He told them it was his house. So call his parents to confirm. Check with a neighbor. Also, even if he was breaking in, arrest him. Detain him. Don't shoot him. 

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11 minutes ago, Court said:

I can think of a million different ways that the police could have handled it besides shooting a 12 year old in the neck.

 

He told them it was his house. So call his parents to confirm. Check with a neighbor. Also, even if he was breaking in, arrest him. Detain him. Don't shoot him. 

He reached into his jacket for his phone.  The police didn't know he was reaching for his phone.  He could have been reaching for a gun.  He should have put his hands in the air.  Something I found odd about Bailey and Ben talking to Tuck was they said even if his white friends mouthed off to the cops, he shouldn't.  No one, including white kids, should mouth off to the cops.  Live to file a complaint against them if they don't follow proper procedure.

If Matt does file a malpractice suit against the hospital and doctors, I hope it does not lead to him getting back together with April.  Matt was a nice guy, and he didn't deserve what April and Jackson did to him.

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2 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

He reached into his jacket for his phone.  The police didn't know he was reaching for his phone.  He could have been reaching for a gun.  He should have put his hands in the air.  Something I found odd about Bailey and Ben talking to Tuck was they said even if his white friends mouthed off to the cops, he shouldn't.  No one, including white kids, should mouth off to the cops.  Live to file a complaint against them if they don't follow proper procedure.

If Matt does file a malpractice suit against the hospital and doctors, I hope it does not lead to him getting back together with April.  Matt was a nice guy, and he didn't deserve what April and Jackson did to him.

It's not odd at all. They need to tell him that. Because the cops are more likely to shoot the black kid then the white kid. It's an ugly truth but white people can get away with stuff like that without dying for it. That's the bias Jackson was talking about. Had it been a white kid trying to get in his house, I almost guarantee you, the police wouldn't have even been called. 

It's unfair, sad, and heartbreaking that my boyfriend has to have this talk with his kids and I don't have to have it with mine. However, it's been discussed with all kids because maybe if I educate my white kids, they can educate someone else and just maybe it will make a difference. 

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45 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

If Karen's natural low blood pressure wasn't on her chart, I think Matthew has a good malpractice suit in the offing.

Definitely, but it wouldn't be against April.  It would be against the hospital or, more likely, her attending (so, Arizona).

 

ETA: And I'd hate to see them try and pin a wrongful death suit on April.  Not only is it clearly not the case, but it is far too reminiscent of an earlier story line she had when a patient died because she forgot a step in an exam when the hospital was in disarray.

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1 hour ago, Court said:

Had it been a white kid trying to get in his house, I almost guarantee you, the police wouldn't have even been called. 

And you would be wrong.  When I was in my 20s, my sister broke up with her boyfriend.  For whatever reason, he was all upset and decided to come by my place to see if I knew why she had dumped him.  My roommate and I weren't home.  After they rang the bell, knocked on the door, and no one answered, they could have just left.  Instead they went around knocking on the windows, annoyed my neighbors, and the neighbors called the police.  The police arrested them.  We were all white.

I'm not sure where they are going with Matt's wife dying, or if we will ever see him again, but someone writing this show should know that OBGYN and Peds are completely different specialties.  Also, if Arizona were in surgery, there should still be other doctors available to see the patient.  I realize ERs can get hectic, but there would have been other options than simply waiting for Arizona.

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38 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

And you would be wrong.  When I was in my 20s, my sister broke up with her boyfriend.  For whatever reason, he was all upset and decided to come by my place to see if I knew why she had dumped him.  My roommate and I weren't home.  After they rang the bell, knocked on the door, and no one answered, they could have just left.  Instead they went around knocking on the windows, annoyed my neighbors, and the neighbors called the police.  The police arrested them.  We were all white.

Yes. The police arrested them, who I assume were grown adults. They did not pull out their guns and shoot them. These two officers, who looked at least six feet tall shot at a twelve year old kid. That kid wasn't some football player who could overpower another person.  He was twelve-- not even in high school yet. 

I have to wonder who called the police on the kid. Do they just never see their neighbours??

I am honestly shocked at the amount of people claiming that The Talk and the storyline with the 12 year old kid was unrealistic or "too political". There has been far (far) too many reported (and unreported) police shootings of innocent Black individuals for anyone to claim otherwise. If you do, IMO, you are being willfully ignorant. When people tell you that it's real, that it is their lived experience/reality, you cannot tell them that they are wrong, and that that is not their life. This is not a new phenomenon either, it is just that we are now suddenly hearing about it because social media has allowed us to share stories that do not appear on mainstream news. There have been academic articles written on the police shooting of Black individuals, studies have been done. It's something people now study in school. This isn't hypotheticals, when it's proven and true. 

Edited by HighHopes
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29 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

And you would be wrong.  When I was in my 20s, my sister broke up with her boyfriend.  For whatever reason, he was all upset and decided to come by my place to see if I knew why she had dumped him.  My roommate and I weren't home.  After they rang the bell, knocked on the door, and no one answered, they could have just left.  Instead they went around knocking on the windows, annoyed my neighbors, and the neighbors called the police.  The police arrested them.  We were all white.

Your sister's 20-something white boyfriend and his friend (I assume he had a friend with him since you keep saying "they") were basically stalking your sister and harassing your neighbors, and were arrested. The 12-year old black kid in this episode was climbing through the window of his own house — not stalking or harassing anyone — and was shot in the neck. You're only highlighting the problem. 

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9 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

These two officers, who looked at least six feet tall shot at a twelve year old kid

Neither officer we saw was the one who shot him. They made a point not to show or mention the race (or gender?) of the shooter. I don't remember if these guys were there during the shooting though. The officers were obviously bigger than the kid either way, I just wanted to point that out. 

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1 minute ago, Layne said:

Neither officer we saw was the one who shot him. They made a point not to show or mention the race (or gender?) of the shooter. I don't remember if these guys were there during the shooting though. The officers were obviously bigger than the kid either way, I just wanted to point that out. 

I could have sworn they mentioned that the cops shot at them since Jackson was mentioning their bias and the cops said something about how they weren't racist. I stand corrected if wrong though. I still don't think if we put a White kid in the situation it would have resulted in same outcome. It reminds me of the scene from Brooklyn Nine Nine in their "Moo Moo" episode actually. I wanted to find a gif of it, but there's a scene were Jake is acknowledging that his White Privilege allows him to wear a mask and climb through a window. When some cops ask him what he's doing he removes the mask and says "just playing a prank on my friend!", and the cops let him go. 

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32 minutes ago, Layne said:

Your sister's 20-something white boyfriend and his friend (I assume he had a friend with him since you keep saying "they") were basically stalking your sister and harassing your neighbors, and were arrested. The 12-year old black kid in this episode was climbing through the window of his own house — not stalking or harassing anyone — and was shot in the neck. You're only highlighting the problem. 

The police didn't know anything about my sister, me or my roommate.  My neighbors heard and saw strange guys wondering around my house and called the police.  When the police showed up, my sister's ex and his friend went with them peacefully, the only intelligent thing they did that night.  However, by the next day, they were back to being stupid.  According to my sister's ex if she hadn't broken up with him, and if I and my roommate had been home, they never would have been arrested.

The police in this episode had no way of knowing that the kid was breaking into his own house.  They responded to a call, and followed procedure.  There are a lot of good cops that are killed in the line of duty.

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2 hours ago, HighHopes said:

I could have sworn they mentioned that the cops shot at them since Jackson was mentioning their bias and the cops said something about how they weren't racist. I stand corrected if wrong though. I still don't think if we put a White kid in the situation it would have resulted in same outcome. It reminds me of the scene from Brooklyn Nine Nine in their "Moo Moo" episode actually. I wanted to find a gif of it, but there's a scene were Jake is acknowledging that his White Privilege allows him to wear a mask and climb through a window. When some cops ask him what he's doing he removes the mask and says "just playing a prank on my friend!", and the cops let him go. 

The showrunner retweeted this: 

 

 

Which is why I assumed it was intentional on their part (given the showrunner's endorsement). 

If the kid was white, he wouldn't have been shot. No question. 

2 hours ago, flickers said:

I mean, they really had no choice BUT to shoot. They followed procedure, the kid didn't.

You're saying if that was a white 12-year-old girl climbing through a window, and she reached in her pocket, the cops would've had no choice but to shoot? 

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2 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

The police didn't know anything about my sister, me or my roommate.  My neighbors heard and saw strange guys wondering around my house and called the police.  When the police showed up, my sister's ex and his friend went with them peacefully, the only intelligent thing they did that night.  However, by the next day, they were back to being stupid.  According to my sister's ex if she hadn't broken up with him, and if I and my roommate had been home, they never would have been arrested.

The police in this episode had no way of knowing that the kid was breaking into his own house.  They responded to a call, and followed procedure.  There are a lot of good cops that are killed in the line of duty.

So why do you think your friends were arrested and released while the kid in the show was shot and killed? 

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3 hours ago, flickers said:

They followed procedure, the kid didn't.

The fact that a 12 year old kid needs to know "the procedure" is precisely the heart of the problem. A kid should think first that the police is here to protect him, not kill him. The fact that there is a need for "The Talk" is heart-wrenching and shocking.

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7 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

The police in this episode had no way of knowing that the kid was breaking into his own house.  They responded to a call, and followed procedure.  There are a lot of good cops that are killed in the line of duty.

Granted I haven't been to the police academy lately, but what procedure says the cops have the right to shoot a suspect just for being a suspect? If they suspected he was breaking in, arrest him and bring him in. There was simply no reason to shoot him. The kid wasn't doing anything threatening to them or anyone else. He didn't have a weapon, he wasn't brandishing a weapon. So the cop thought the kid might have a weapon when he was reaching for his pocket. Unless he actually pulled out a weapon, there's no reason to fire. That cop shot him because he panicked and overreacted, and a cop so easily spooked that way should not be out on the beat with a gun. You can't just go shooting people because you get spooked. And you have to ask, why? Why was the cop so freaked out by a kid who had yet to do anything or act threatening in any way that he reacted to the mere sight of him reaching into his pocket by instantly shooting him in the neck? The idea that the same thing would have happened if it had been a white kid caught breaking into his own house in an affluent neighborhood is disingenuous. That kid may not have been believed either when he proclaimed that it was his own house, but I can also say with near certainty that the police would have simply cuffed him and held him in the backseat of the police cruiser while they called his contacts or checked with neighbors to verify his story. And when that white kid insisted on calling his parents and reached into his pocket for his phone, the cops would have at the most ordered him to put his hands up where they can see them and left it at that. It would not have been that cop's split second inclination to shoot him.

This is the sad reality. This is why we have to give our kids "The Talk." Because even though the cops have no right to shoot you for no reason, sometimes they will. Sometimes there will be that cop who is biased enough to assume the worst of you even when you haven't done anything. Sometimes there will be that cop who gets spooked so easily that any sudden movement on your part will be interpreted as an attempt to threaten them and their gut reaction is to shoot. And the sad reality is that this reaction is much more likely to occur with black and brown suspects than white suspects. We know this to be true because the history and data tell us so. And so you have to give your kid "The Talk" and explain why you must be polite to the police, and do not make any sudden moves or try to run away from them, and keep your hands up in the air at all times, and understand that you will not be viewed the same way or held to the same standard as your white friend standing next to you. The cops will not react to you both the same way. This is our sad reality. It should not be this way. A kid, or anyone, should not have to be cognizant of every move they make and breath they take for fear that the police will overreact and shoot you. And a police officer should not translate his or her biases, implicit or not, into actions this way. But they do. And it's a very, very sad commentary that the kid in this episode "should have known" to not make any sudden moves and to keep his hands up or else the officer of the law would shoot him in his own living room for absolutely nothing.

Side story: A couple years ago, my cousin, who is black, was having an argument with his (white) girlfriend in the parking lot of her apartment building, and the neighbors called the police when it got loud and disruptive. They didn't politely question him nor did he have the chance to peacefully go with them to talk. They had him face down on the ground in handcuffs. He wasn't doing anything to the girlfriend, the neighbors or the cops. No one was hurt and nothing came of the encounter, but none of us were fool enough to believe he would have been treated the same way if he was the girl's white boyfriend.

Edited by Chicken Wing
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