S01.E12: Vaulting Ambition

[paigow]

No Description

[starri]

...did Voq just die?  Is that why L'Rell did the Death Howl?

I know that Lorca being from the Mirror Universe was the least surprising reveal since Georgiou being the Emperor and before that, Ash being Voq, but using it as a cheeky, cheesy explanation of why the lighting in the Mirror Universe is so much dimmer was the right combo of stupid and hilarious.

Save the mycelial network, save the doctor?  Please, show, give me something.

The "Michael and Georgiou chow down on some prime Kelpian" scene was deeply unsettling.  I know it's not technically cannibalism, but I don't think Michael will be looking Saru in the eye for a while.

Even more unsettling was the idea that Lorca crossed the boundaries between universes to get his girlfriend back.  So he knows how to get them home already.  I can't see how he can stick around after this either, unless they have the Prime Universe version stashed somewhere.

[ottoDbusdriver]

5 minutes ago, starri said:

Save the mycelial network, save the doctor?  Please, show, give me something.

Save the cheerleader, save the world -- whoops, wrong show.

Was the ISS Charon built around a star ?

I don't get one thing -- if the Emperor's flagship was right by the ISS Shenzhou, bombarding Hurlak from orbit, why was it suddenly 27 million miles away requiring a warp jump by a shuttle ?  Couldn't they just have transported over ?

Agreed, Lorca being MirrorLorca was the least surprising thing this episode.

[marinw]

The scenes with Paul and Mycelial Network Hugh broke me.

So where is Lorca Prime? Dead?

Edited January 22, 2018 by marinw

[statsgirl]

In the AfterTrek following the midseason finale, the actor playing Culber said that his favourite scene was yet to come. I was hoping it meant that he was still alive.

5 minutes ago, marinw said:

So where is Lorca Prime? Dead?

Killed by Mirror Lorca?

I have to give it to this show, I'm not bored as I was by TNG and Voyager.

Edited January 22, 2018 by statsgirl

[marinw]

Even I’ve had enough of Ash/Voq’s suffering

[ottoDbusdriver]

So how did MirrorLorca travel to the PrimeUniverse ?  If he used interphasic space, how did he solve the temporal displacement issue ?  If he used the spore network, how exactly ?

Lorca also commanded the Buran in the MirrorVerse -- that seems ....... unlikely.

MirrorStammets is evil and destroying the spore network in the MirrorVerse -- that might cause even more issues, not just the dead mycological hold on Discovery.
 

Edited January 22, 2018 by ottoDbusdriver

[aemom]

40 minutes ago, starri said:

...did Voq just die?  Is that why L'Rell did the Death Howl?

The "Michael and Georgiou chow down on some prime Kelpian" scene was deeply unsettling.  I know it's not technically cannibalism, but I don't think Michael will be looking Saru in the eye for a while

I was thinking the same thing about the howl.

That was disturbing. Now we know why Georgiou wanted her to choose a Kelpian. That was the one they were going to eat. *shudder*

I've felt for a while that it was MirrorLorca, especially when Cornwell was examining scars on his back when they were in bed together. It's kind of a weird retcon about the bright lights though. 

I wonder what happened to PrimeLorca?

It was very sad and nice to see Hugh and Paul getting some closure.  I liked them together. 

[Primal Slayer]

I did NOT see that coming! And it makes so much more sense now! MAJOR KUDOS.

[ottoDbusdriver]

Philippa Georgiou Augustus Eoponius Antares, Mother of the Fatherland, Overlord of Vulcan, Dominus of Kronos, Regina Andor

I wonder who she killed to get the Emperor's throne, and who was the prior Emperor. 

[UNOSEZ]

Yea we all figged he was mirror lorca.. But him being daddy.. And then "Daddy" to Burnham is just yucky.. I guess he's only gonna be a villian now now way to redeem him.. And is ava the name of the first security chief or is that someone else... Love that Michael and phillipa had a strong/stronger bond in the mirrorverse.. I Winder if the show plans to stay here or go back to the prime universe... Or go somewhere else after either this part of the arc or next season... Either way I want more Michael/ phillipa before it's all over and phillipa dies again.. Cuz that is probably gonna happen

[statsgirl]

I missed why Lorca went from being "Daddy" to something else to Mirror Burnham.  Was it sexual or did he want something else?

[aemom]

4 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I missed why Lorca went from being "Daddy" to something else to Mirror Burnham.  Was it sexual or did he want something else?

When Michael grew up, then it changed from a parent/child type relationship to a sexual one.

[100Proof]

I'm trainwreck watching this show now. I believe the descriptive term is ham-fisted

Edited January 22, 2018 by 100Proof

[Latverian Diplomat]

The "light sensitivity trait" seems unnecessary.  It would have been more satisfying for Burnham to figure it out on her own, without such an obvious tell.

It was strongly implied the rebels really were wiped out.

I don't really like Tyler that much, so the implication that Voq/Tyler is now just Tyler again, and may therefore be a series regular, is not good news, IMHO. Is that mean? Maybe, but it's how I feel.

Somehow, I suspect that the "cure" for the mycelial network will render the magic spore drive conveniently unusable (after one last trip home). 

Edited January 22, 2018 by Latverian Diplomat

[Pippin]

Well, that was/is a fun run.  I was semi-spoiled about Lorca, due to the smart people on the 'net, but I still yelled "Holy [expletive deleted]!" at the TV when the reveal happened.  It does explain one of the prime problems the reviewer in the New York Times has had, mainly how Lorca's character has been all over the place.  (Good reviews  at the Times, BTW, check them out if you can.) And I don't think Hugh is permanently dead; they keep throwing in the word "temporal" and we all know time travel is full of paradoxes and surprises. 

Loved the two Stamets interacting.  Great fun.  And getting hints about why spore travel isn't being used in TOS's time.

It makes sense that Phillipa is Emperor.  I figure she's a descent of Empress Hoshi Sato.

Still trying to figure out though, how Klingons' looks changed so much in ten years.

I think Voq, Son of None, has gone to Sto'va'kor; hence the death yowl.  I'm intrigued by L'Rell's story arc; where does she go now?  Did she really want to defect?  Mind you, all the character arcs are fascinating.  I hope they find some way to redeem Lorca or find prime Lorca stashed away somewhere; Jason Issacs is just too good to lose.  (On a shallow note, bring me Lorca with Lucius Malfoy's hair and I'm in heaven.)

I was prepared to dislike this show but I can't; grudgingly I admit I'm hooked.  I'm not loving the characters the way I did on Enterprise, but the storyline has me engaged.  Possibly because I see a lot of ways to go.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Pippin
Because the difference between Paul (live) and Hugh (dead) is important.

[100Proof]

So if alter lorca is not the real lorca and j. peterman, is not really j.peterman but actually cosmo kramer, why was he wearing the very same pants he was returning to barneys?

[Miles]

I honestly don't know if I would have figured out the mirror Lorca thing on my own, without people speculating in these episode threads. But even knowing it beforehand, this was still a very nice, well executed twist.

Culber and Stamits were so good together, as always. Breaks my heart seeing them say goodbye forever. I know some people think Culber is coming back, but I don't think so.

37 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Yea we all figged he was mirror lorca.. But him being daddy.. And then "Daddy" to Burnham is just yucky..

My thoughts exactly. Yuck.

12 minutes ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

The "light sensitivity trait" seems unnecessary.  It would have been more satisfying for Burnham to figure it out on her own, without such an obvious tell.

It's also pretty dumb. The only explaination for that would be if the sun wasn't as bright on mirror-erath but that would mean a whole host of other problems. That would mean it would have to be a dimmer type, with more of it's wavelength in the infrared spectrum. That would mean earth would have to be a lot closer to the star in order to be still in the habitable zone. Realistically the star would even have to be a red dwarf (I don't think an orange dwarf would account for the difference), which would mean earth would be tidally locked, so it would look completely different. Plus the solar system would be completely different, because of the much lower gravity from the star.

It's already suuuuuper far fetched that there would still be the same people in this universe with all these differences, but this makes it even worse.

I guess it explains all that dim lighting on their ships though... and why Lorca didn't get his eyes fixed. The doctors would have likely noticed that it was there from birth and not due to an accident.

[Joimiaroxeu]

I knew Lorca was wrong, even if he is only MirrorLorca. I guess the bigger question is as others here have asked: where is Lorca Prime? I like the actor so I hope one or both of the Lorcas gets to stick around.

Quote

When Michael grew up, then it changed from a parent/child type relationship to a sexual one.

Between finding out Ash is Voq and this, Burnham is having quite a bad couple of days. She's probably going to be turned off to sex and romance for a good long while.

Quote

L'Rell's story arc; where does she go now?

I hope she self-ejects into outer space. She made Ash a non-consensual participant in her Klingon BDSM and has left him permanently scarred both physically and mentally. Saying "bygones" now that she's apparently killed Voq won't be enough AFAIC.

[tpel]

That certainly was gripping, but I'm not happy with the results: It looks like we've got Tyler back, rid of the Voq persona. But I never cared that much about him anyway. And I don't really understand why getting rid of the Voq persona (i.e., the underlying persona of the brain inside his skull) was more practical for L'Rell than getting rid of the Tyler overlay. Culber had some lovely scenes with Stamets, but they seemed to be going in the direction of him being dead dead, which I hoped was not going to be the case. I had more or less made peace with Lorca being MirrorLorca, and thus likely somewhat evil. But I had hoped, perhaps, when we knew his larger plan, that there would be some redemption for him. Far from it. Now they've made him icky. Grooming Michael? Ewwww. So, of three characters in peril, the least interesting one (in my opinion) stays with us, the sweetest one may be gone permanently, and the most interesting is well nigh irredeemable. 

On the positive side, Stamets talking to "himself" was awesome, and Saru had some nice moments. 

[thuganomics85]

Whelp, I suspect Michael's going to have a lot of uncomfortable and awkward moments around Saru now that she accidentally ate one of his species.  I knew something was going with Emperor Georgiou asking to pick one, but I wasn't expecting that!

On the other hand, not surprised that Lorca ends actually being Alt-Lorca this entire time.  They showered plenty of hints that there was something shady about him and he clearly knew more then he was letting on, so I was leaning towards him either being from the future or from another universe.  Never trust Jason Issac characters!  Also, it sounds like he started out as a father figure to Alt-Michael (with the Emperor as her mother figure), but then it became.... more?  Way to go all Woody Allen on this universe, Lorca.  Eww.

Stamets with Alt-Stamets was great.  And then him and poor Hugo.  I hope he really isn't gone for good!

Looks like L'Rell "cured" Voq/Tyler by killing the Voq part him (hence the Death Scream), so I guess normal Tyler is back.  Although I imagine there is going to be a lot of tension still after everything that happened.

Not enough Tilly.

I wonder how much longer we're going to be sticking with the Alt-Universe episode.  I've been enjoying them, but it just feels weird to do this so early, and it gives off the sense that the writers don't trust their established universe enough, so they have to rely on the whole "be entertained by seeing the normal characters be evil!" concept.

[DrScottie]

20 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Stamets with Alt-Stamets was great.  And then him and poor Hugo.  I hope he really isn't gone for good!

Remember what Hugo said: Nothing in here is ever truly gone. So long as the network still exists, Hugo still does too. 

[Pippin]

In terms of the light sensitivity of Terrans, recall Burnham's observation in the last episode about "how even the light seems different here".  Foreshadowing/hint dropping, yes.

Quantum theory, as far as I understand it in terms of different universes, postulates that in other universes, physics may not operate in the same fashion as in ours.  Therefore, it might be that light is on a different wavelength/intensity than in the Prime Universe. 

I hope Hugo isn't dead dead; it would be nice if Trek bucked the trend of killing off the gay love interest that TV seems to overuse.  Remember Tara on Buffy? That was pretty unforgivable, IMO. I would hope Discovery can find a way to bring him back. 

And because I am an Enterprise/Connor Trinneer fan:  Trip is not dead, either!  So there!  :)

[Eneya]

I am going to bet that when MirrLo jumped, PrimeLo was dead on the Buran and he simply assumed his identity.

[tinnefoil]

4 hours ago, statsgirl said:

In the AfterTrek following the midseason finale, the actor playing Culber said that his favourite scene was yet to come. I was hoping it meant that he was still alive.

Killed by Mirror Lorca?

I have to give it to this show, I'm not bored as I was by TNG and Voyager.

I miss the time when it was okay for shows to have downtime and filler and character building episodes rather than having to have  shocking reveal every episode. 

Plus, I hate it when it seems like the importance of a female character within her universe is based on all the people who are in love with her. Why did Lorca pluck her from obscurity? Because she is the most amazing and most capable badass? Naw, romance. 

I just feel like I would have rather watched the show of unrealistically capable Michael who is being blocked from command due to the mistakes she made slowly working her way up again rather than Michael who can even make mindwiped Klingons fall in love with her and whose ex-boyfriends stalk her across universes. 

[MissLucas]

Ah well, I kinda liked the concept of a ST captain who's not that much into ethics but MirrorLorca it is. There are still quite a number of narrative gaps to fill in and I'm looking forward to see those revealed. I must admit that I wish we could at least keep PrimeLorca around (if he's still alive). He might not quite such a magnificent bastard but even a more mellow version could be interesting.

The Voq/Tyler thing is still a hard sell for me. That's still physically Voq (well some sort of Frankenstein version of Voq), or hardware Voq and the Tyler persona is just new software after L'Rell deleted the old OS. Apparently I'm a bit more hung up on the concept of 'soul' than I thought.

The one surprising twist was the Stamets switch at the end.

[Lebanna]

That episode was wonderful. I kept thinking 'This is Star Trek!' because this show really has taken the central things that matter and made them new again. 

Real Stamets being back is fantastic - he's just so snarky and awesome and he and Hugh broke my heart. The future for them, assuming the network can be saved, is tragic but beautiful, the idea of the person you love being forever just out of reach, in your life but only for moments at a time. You could never truly move on that way, but you might never want to.

I can see Ash becoming the Seven-of-Nine of this show, now that they have released the basic Klingon hold over him. Going back to being human, with half a Klingon body-structure and brain inside you would be horrific and hard.

Georgiou is also fantastic, and I still love her accent and her whole fabulous thing even though she's evil. Revolving light-up standing thrones are definitely something all evil overlords should consider. She's up there with Mirror Kira for most love-to-hate alternate version. I knew we were going to see someone eating Kelpian in the Mirror Universe, because the whole idea is so disgusting, but I didn't expect it to be Michael having to do it. I thought that would be even more traumatic than all the other things that have happened to her, and then it turned out that Mirror Lorca totally Woody Allened her alt.

That's probably the biggest blow she could possibly have been given and possibly an even bigger pain than Ash - because she really thought that somehow Lorca had seen something in her that transcended her mistakes and arrogance, but it turned out to be just that he wanted to use her for sex and revenge again. And really horrible, evil Humbert Humbert sex at that. All the pride that she might have started to have in her abilities disappears again, all the hope that she really can redeem herself in the eyes of another captain is gone. She will have to make her belief in herself central to her identity now, because she can't find it in the eyes of other people. 

The only disappointment is that we will have to lose evil Lorca now, because the character has gone in this episode from horrible but rootable-for on some level to irredeemable with this revelation. And I do believe that the show picked this revelation especially to make us instantly turn against him, because in our culture there's nothing much worse than a father-figure taking advantage of his daughter. Lorca killing someone wouldn't bother us as much as this does. And it is not something that can ever be taken back. But I really don't want to lose Lorca as a character, the base Lorca who is direct and determined, different and interesting, so I hope that we will find out that Prime Lorca is lurking somewhere having switched with Mirror Lorca, and we get back a version that is all the positive things and perhaps just messed up in normal ways. And the advantage of that would also be that after this revelation, Michael and Prime Lorca would never ever get together as the audience would throw up at the thought, so we could rule out that icky storyline going forward. But I think we're going to lose him for good, and if we do it will be understandable. It's a shame if we lose the actor though, he's so good in everything and has a huge range, he could totally sell us on an alternate Prime Lorca.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Lebanna

[Vandy10]

Lorca as father-turned-lover is...icky. I actually was surprised at the reveal, not because I wasn't expecting it this season, but because I wasn't expecting it so soon. I was hoping that we'd get to keep a gray Lorca because I like that concept. But I think this episode clearly moved him firmly into the "evil" column. I'm not even sure whether he was rebelling against the Emperor because he thought she was cruel and wrong, or if it was just because he wanted his Burnham all to himself. But I'm leaning towards the latter.

The whole Mirror Universe concept has been ridiculous from the start (from even a glancingly scientific view), so I hand wave all of the implausibility away. In my head cannon, there's something that binds the two universes perpetually together, even though the myriad of different choices made by the people along the way should've propelled the Mirror & Prime Universe far, far apart over time. So I just roll with the fact that there's a double, relatively similar to the original, for every single person.

Yay for Shazad Latif getting to stick around! And yay for seeing Rekha Sharma in the previews for next week! I hope this means we'll see Cornwell again soon.

[tinnefoil]

Well as some pointed out, that is what the evil empress says about Lorca. She could be lying. 

And of course there's the possibility that prime!Lorca is still around somewhere. 

[Lebanna]

Wait, rewatching - was that actually Alt-Saru they ate in this episode? (This is going to sound terrible, but I apparently have trouble telling Kelpians apart, to be fair we only got a glimpse of him).

Because if so that's even more horrific because Michael would have accidentally got her friend's double cooked, which is obviously Prime Saru's greatest fear.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Lebanna

[Helena Dax]

I don't know if I would have figured it out the truth about Lorca by myself. It really explains why he didn't act like a Starfleet captain. I must confess, though, that considering that he's from an evil universe, I don't think his feelings for Michael are his worst crime. The fact that mirror!Michael saw him as a father doesn't mean he wanted to be seen as one (for all we know, he wasn't Giorgiou's lover, he didn't live with them, he wasn't in Sarek's position).  And who knows what mirror!Michael felt for Lorca. Maybe Giorgou's right and Michael was after the throne and Lorca was a tool to achieve her goal. Maybe he was using her. Maybe they loved each other (even if their love was twisted, since this is a twisted universe). I understand why the audience is disgusted, but the mirror! audience would probably see it as a usual relationship, nothing to talk about. 

I wonder what Terran children are like. I know we didn't see anyone in TOS, but not so sure about DS9. Do we know if they are regular children, raised to be cruel and aggresive first, submissive and fearful a century later? Are they just born that way? It's me or the rules are a bit confusing?

I felt for Michael when she had to eat stew made of Kelpians. An Hannibal touch?

If Ash gets to live, I'll be happy. And same thing about Hugh. They just have to come back a bit earlier and prevent the killing. 

[clyo22]

5 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

I don't know if I would have figured it out the truth about Lorca by myself. It really explains why he didn't act like a Starfleet captain. I must confess, though, that considering that he's from an evil universe, I don't think his feelings for Michael are his worst crime. The fact that mirror!Michael saw him as a father doesn't mean he wanted to be seen as one (for all we know, he wasn't Giorgiou's lover, he didn't live with them, he wasn't in Sarek's position).  And who knows what mirror!Michael felt for Lorca. Maybe Giorgou's right and Michael was after the throne and Lorca was a tool to achieve her goal. Maybe he was using her. Maybe they loved each other (even if their love was twisted, since this is a twisted universe). I understand why the audience is disgusted, but the mirror! audience would probably see it as a usual relationship, nothing to talk about. 

I wonder what Terran children are like. I know we didn't see anyone in TOS, but not so sure about DS9. Do we know if they are regular children, raised to be cruel and aggresive first, submissive and fearful a century later? Are they just born that way? It's me or the rules are a bit confusing?

I felt for Michael when she had to eat stew made of Kelpians. An Hannibal touch?

If Ash gets to live, I'll be happy. And same thing about Hugh. They just have to come back a bit earlier and prevent the killing. 

I so agree with you about Lorca!

This reveal didn't make Lorca irredeemable to me. His relationship with MirrorMichael was unconventional but unless he lived with them, was Georgiou's partner or clearly officially Micheal's surrogate father, I don't think Lorca can be compared to a certain American film director. And I don't want to believe anything out the mouth of the woman who kills her generals without a second thought and eats Kelpian people. I loathe MirrorGeorgiou just for that and she is irredeemable to me. I don't care about her love for MirrorMichael. I won't enjoy watching her team up with our Michael against Lorca. I desperately hope Lorca has a not so stupid/evil reason to have done what he did to the Discovery crew and to our Michael.

Also I love Ash and will happily see him back. I am curious of what will be Stamets next move.

[aemom]

Because Lorca has been MirrorLorca this whole time - who's goal was to be reunited with the love of his life: Michael Burnham, I'm trying to remember if Lorca had any idea about the hanky-panky between Michael and Tyler?  Wouldn't MirrorLorca have taken him out if that was the case?

They seem to be trying to redeem Tyler by "removing" Voq from him, but that's a very steep cliff to climb back from.  I don't know...

I am interested in seeing how the whole spore drive things blows up in their faces once and for all because we never see it again in any other Star Trek incarnation, so it has to.  I just hope that story is interesting.

[UNOSEZ]

What I really wish for is that when they are traveling back yo their universe they are catapulted into the future in a time period after all the other series.. That could explain why the spore drive never got into anyone else's hands.. Why spock never spoke abt his sister etc.. They could Vine back as heroes from the past...  To see a world where Klingons and humans are at some kind of peace.. They rejoin starfleet and have to deal with being out of time but also new adventures in parts of space star trek hasn't explored.. They can drop all the Easter eggs they want from previous shows.. He'll they can have cameos of some kind... I think that would quiet the Trek hard-liners who don't like continuity issues and give this crew a fresh start while still tying them to the past 

[DavidJSnyder]

Does anyone have a firm idea what L'Rell and Voq's goal with their elaborate sleeper agent plan was?  What was he supposed to do if she had successfully reactivated him right away?

[ahisma]

I was just thinking last week when Michael was on the bridge of the Mirror!Shenzou that it's convenient for her that she's used to working on a dark bridge...

It seemed a far stretch that a Federation captain survived when all other hands were lost, so I suspect that Prime!Lorca did go down with the Buran. Unfortunately, as I love Jason Isaacs. 

[starri]

11 minutes ago, DavidJSnyder said:

Does anyone have a firm idea what L'Rell and Voq's goal with their elaborate sleeper agent plan was?  What was he supposed to do if she had successfully reactivated him right away?

They wanted to get their hands on the spore drive. 

[DavidJSnyder]

7 minutes ago, starri said:

They wanted to get their hands on the spore drive. 

They didn't know about the spore drive when they turned him into a human, did they? 

[meira.hand]

2 hours ago, Lebanna said:

Wait, rewatching - was that actually Alt-Saru they ate in this episode? (This is going to sound terrible, but I apparently have trouble telling Kelpians apart, to be fair we only got a glimpse of him).

Because if so that's even more horrific because Michael would have accidentally got her friend's double cooked, which is obviously Prime Saru's greatest fear.

Yes, sadly it seems it was. They did not linger long during the "Choose a Kelpian" scene but Michael did see and chose the one that looked like Alt-Saru, I assume hoping to find some connection with him. she will need some serious therapy when she meets prime Saru :). 

[DavidJSnyder]

11 minutes ago, meira.hand said:

Yes, sadly it seems it was. They did not linger long during the "Choose a Kelpian" scene but Michael did see and chose the one that looked like Alt-Saru, I assume hoping to find some connection with him. she will need some serious therapy when she meets prime Saru :). 

I'm not seeing how Alt-Saru would have gotten from the Shenzhou to the palace ship.  He wasn't on the shuttle with Michael, was he?

[meira.hand]

3 minutes ago, DavidJSnyder said:

15 minutes ago, meira.hand said:

Yes, sadly it seems it was. They did not linger long during the "Choose a Kelpian" scene but Michael did see and chose the one that looked like Alt-Saru, I assume hoping to find some connection with him. she will need some serious therapy when she meets prime Saru :). 

I'm not seeing how Alt-Saru would have gotten from the Shenzhou to the palace ship.  He wasn't on the shuttle with Michael, was he?

I admit I did not think this thru. I just recognized him and thought she did too. Maybe they just reused the same mask (and she recognized the familiarity), to make her and us even more shocked at the outcome (which was really a bit much).

[starri]

I have to wonder if outing herself to Georgiou was her plan all along. Because I can’t think of another reason why she’d have had her Georgiou’s badge on her. 

I also kind of loved Emperor Georgiou’s murder throwing star. 

32 minutes ago, DavidJSnyder said:

They didn't know about the spore drive when they turned him into a human, did they? 

I think they knew that Discovery had some sort of secret tech. When they were making the jumps around the Ship of the Dead, Kol said something like “so this is Discovery’s magic power.”

[DavidJSnyder]

18 minutes ago, starri said:

 

I think they knew that Discovery had some sort of secret tech. When they were making the jumps around the Ship of the Dead, Kol said something like “so this is Discovery’s magic power.”

By then the Klingons in general knew there was something up with Discovery, but L'Rell was hinting at turning Voq into a human with her "give up everything line" back in Episode 4 after she and Voq had been trapped on the cathedral ship for 6 months.  So was the plan  1.  Turn Voq into a human, and 2.  Wait for the humans to develop some secret technology we can steal. and 3.  Use the tech to take over the Klingon Empire?  Because that seems to me like an overly convulted and/or optimistic plan.

[Jack Kerouac]

11 hours ago, Miles said:

It's also pretty dumb. The only explaination for that would be if the sun wasn't as bright on mirror-erath but that would mean a whole host of other problems. That would mean it would have to be a dimmer type, with more of it's wavelength in the infrared spectrum. That would mean earth would have to be a lot closer to the star in order to be still in the habitable zone. Realistically the star would even have to be a red dwarf (I don't think an orange dwarf would account for the difference), which would mean earth would be tidally locked, so it would look completely different. Plus the solar system would be completely different, because of the much lower gravity from the star.

It's already suuuuuper far fetched that there would still be the same people in this universe with all these differences, but this makes it even worse.

I guess it explains all that dim lighting on their ships though... and why Lorca didn't get his eyes fixed. The doctors would have likely noticed that it was there from birth and not due to an accident.

Shhhh! You're sciencing. This is Star Trek. They probably reversed the polarity of the Sun or something in the past and it made it dim!

As for Lorca, I take what the evil, inappropriately stereotypical Asian Emperor said with a grain of salt. I'm sure it MIGHT be true, but until Lorca confirms it himself, I am on the fence as to his character.

[tpel]

I kind of feel like I want to break up with this show now. I won't, of course, because . . . Star Trek. But really, making Lorca a bad guy could be fun. Making him a perv is not so fun. I was already convinced that he was MirrorLorca, and thus believed that we would not have the character beyond this season. Still, I told myself, there would be this whole first season of fascinating Jason Isaacs awesomeness to look back on. Now it is tainted. The sweet scenes, like right after they saved Sarek and Michael told Lorca it was an honor to serve under him, and he got that interesting expression on his face -- if he was just MirrorLorca, it would be neat to look back and see that as him being touched by her words, despite his nature and agenda. Now its just gross. Also, the way he seemed to care about Tyler when he saved him from the prison ship now rings hollow, as Lorca just called his confederate "soldier" (like he did Tyler, to encourage him) and then watched him die horribly rather than saying the name of the guard's sister. 

[Charlesman]

The fact that people aren't sure whether L'Rell killed Voq or not pretty much proves that her character's motivation for doing so wasn't even close to being established. 

Which is par for the course on this show, apparently. What a godawful mess this whole series is. 

[kryss]

Did L'Rell bring the Ash and Voq personas together, integrating them so they were no longer fighting each other rather than removing the base persona of Voq entirely? He spoke in English but completed the Klingon prayer. L'Rell would mourn that as the loss of Voq as any remnants would be polluted by a human, and a combined Klingon/human mind might give breakthrough insights into the war. Not to mention that if one persona was to be removed, the overlaid one of Ash would seem more likely.

I'm on the fence about MirrorLorca. We only have what Georgiou has told us so far, and Lorca may have needed Michael as a way in to the palace rather than harbouring anything romantic for her. So far, I've not read romance into their interactions though he has definitely shown a vested interest in keeping her alive and safe. The Terran regime is pretty brutal, it would depend on his motivation for wanting to disrupt it (ie. break the tyranny or take over as Emperor) as to how it reflects on his character.

[MissLucas]

18 minutes ago, Charlesman said:

The fact that people aren't sure whether L'Rell killed Voq or not pretty much proves that her character's motivation for doing so wasn't even close to being established. 

 

 

16 minutes ago, kryss said:

Did L'Rell bring the Ash and Voq personas together, integrating them so they were no longer fighting each other rather than removing the base persona of Voq entirely? He spoke in English but completed the Klingon prayer. L'Rell would mourn that as the loss of Voq as any remnants would be polluted by a human, and a combined Klingon/human mind might give breakthrough insights into the war. Not to mention that if one persona was to be removed, the overlaid one of Ash would seem more likely.

I think L'Rell did kill what was left of Voq though her motivation for doing that instead of extinguishing Tyler remains unclear. Maybe it was the only option? What's worse about this plot is what I fear will be served as explanation why L'Rell's plan (whatever it was) back-fired: true love. Had Tyler/Voq not fallen for Burnham everything would be fine - so that's the second time Burnham massively screws up a Klingon scheme.

[100Proof]

There is a thing I noticed in the first season half when 'Michael' was first bunked with the spore engineering woman... her name Tilly? (I swear I don't know how ya'll keep all these characters names straight.... especially klingons... they all look alike to me! lol)

Anyway I swear when it was time for both of them to bunk down and sleep, they did one of those things they do all the time on tv and the movies.... the camera does a closeup on 'Tilly's' face who's turned away opposite from michaels bed... and she gave one of them weird 'stare' look.... like there's some kind of hidden evil thing going on. But nothing surfaced as far as I know with that character

[Miles]

9 minutes ago, 100Proof said:

Anyway I swear when it was time for both of them to bunk down and sleep, they did one of those things they do all the time on tv and the movies.... the camera does a closeup on 'Tilly's' face who's turned away opposite from michaels bed... and she gave one of them weird 'stare' look.... like there's some kind of hidden evil thing going on. But nothing surfaced as far as I know with that character

That was about her being shocked that the only mutineer in starfleet history, who gossip says started the war with the klingons, was now her bunkmate.