S04.E03: Resisting Temptation

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Quote

Learning she needs to lose 30 pounds to be eligible for bottom surgery, Jazz commits to losing weight. Later, Jazz and Jeanette participate in a debate over controversial research that suggests children shouldn't be placed on hormone blockers before puberty.

[AliM]

Ooof, this family.  Grueling.  Jazz has quite a collection of blankets

[MegD]

While Jazz may be correct about transgender kids not changing their minds, there's a vast difference between Jazz's experience and every transgender kid's. She also seems oblivious to the giant elephant in the room. The whole problem with her surgery is that she was blocked so early that there's no enough tissue available for her. So perhaps, just perhaps, the scientist might have a point. Even if the point isn't what the scientist was expecting. Just because Jazz thinks that what she had is best doesn't mean that it is, in every case. This is a highly personal decision for every family.

But then again, this is the same child that still isn't taking ownership of her weight issues. Hypnotherapy isn't a magical cure. You losing weight isn't everyone else's job. Jeanette, I hope you actually heard what Meredith the therapist said about sabotaging herself because she's not ready yet. Turns out those letters might not be so easy.

[calpurnia99]

Exactly what we discussed here last week about the therapist letter not being as easy as Mom thinks was correct. I posted that I thought Jeanette had the idea that getting the letter would be very easy, because a therapist would agree that Jazz really is certain that she is a female. Then tonight we see her asking this therapist to write the letter, based on the fact that she has known Jazz since she was 3, assuming it would be no big deal.  Jeanette was sure that a simple request to this old therapist they had would magically produce one letter they need in no time!  I was THRILLED to hear this therapist say, NO, I am not giving her a letter without having  counseling  sessions with her and determining if she is mentally healthy enough NOW for this surgery.  Just because I've known her since she was 3 doesn't mean I'm just going to hand you a letter, you fool!Then the she brought up the issue that we brought up here last week, that perhaps Jazz was self-sabotaging because she really was afraid to move forward.

That was great! 

[JocelynCavanaugh]

The previews made it seem like the researcher would be a trans-phobic meanie, but I thought she was actually pretty reasonable. She wasn't denying trans identity, just urging caution. I think it's true that some kids outgrow gender dysphoria, or come to realize they're actually gay/bi/queer. That doesn't mean Jazz isn't truly who she is, but because she's a typical teenager whose brain is still cooking, she has trouble understanding that her experience isn't universal and anecdotes aren't enough to refute research, no matter how true they are for her.

I hope Penelope's mother got some good information from the experience and is able to help her child navigate this in a way that helps (him?) confirm his true identity. [Not trying to misgender this child, just not sure how to use pronouns in this particular situation.]

[Quilty]

Does jazz do any studying or learn about something besides gender issues? Even when she's snuggled up in one of her many blankets she's researching surgery etc. 

Not much book learnin' happening it seems.

[MegD]

I think Jazz clearly needs to have the concept of research explained to her. A sample of 127 young children who identify as trans is a fairly large sample, considering the generous 0.6% of the adult population. That would be a sample size of over 21,000 total children. That's a huge sample for the population. Jazz and her pals does not a better sample population make. For one reason, I suspect that children who may be questioning themselves or who change their minds (for whatever reason) are not allowed around Jazz. We have yet to see a kid who says  "you know what, I thought I was trans gender but really, I'm gay" or "my gender dysphoria wasn't gender dysphoria so much as it was total body dysphoria and I actually have had Münchhausen's this whole time." I'm not invalidating anyone being transgender or saying that it's not legitimate. It is just possible that given Jazz's air time, some children may know of her more than they know of individuals who are gay or who have heard of Münchhausen's. Also, contrary to what she and Noelle seem to think, the ones that drop out of a study typically are ones who decide that it no longer applies to them so it is reasonable to put them in the desist category. That's how research works. Just because research differs from your world view doesn't make it wrong and the scientist wasn't being a meanie. I think his suggestion was merely that there may be reasons to wait on preventing puberty. Jazz herself, although she seems to refuse to acknowledge it, is a demonstrable reason that perhaps she was blocked too soon. There are a lot of issues with her potential surgery because of a lack of material to work with.

I'm sure they talk about other things, but it just seems that all they focus on are Jazz's genitals. One of the twins had it right when he said it was a little odd. I had a hernia surgery and my brother told me I was being gross when I told him my belly button hurt (he asked how I was feeling). The day I talk to him about my crotch is the day he goes after his eyeballs with a spork.

[janedi]

I may get in trouble again for saying this, But I do not like how Jeanette has shut down the very idea that Jazz may change her mind one day and that she constantly voices this.

Jazz saying it is one thing, but Jeanette should keep her mouth closed. Her making these statements is essentially removing Jazz's freedom.   I have to wonder would Jeanette be as tolerant and supportive if Jazz decided to go back one day? Would she accept having a son again as fully as she accepted a daughter?

 

Again I'm not saying this will happen, I'm just saying until the surgery is done. Jeanette doesn't know what the future may hold.

 

ETA: It's absolutely outrageous that Jazz and Noelle think they know better than the scientist.

(And that's coming from someone who is skeptical of a lot of scientific "research" that comes out nowadays.)

Does jazz really think scientist shouldn't ask questions and research things just because it "negatively affects a lot of people??" So they should just keep quiet about their findings in case they hurt someones feelings??

That's an immature and borderline cultish way of thinking

And sorry but saying "well they weren't really trans" is disregarding those 100+ kids experiences and feelings That's not a real argument. It's actually kinda disturbing and again, cultish.

It makes me think once again, that being trans is so ingrained in Jazz's identity, that if she ever had doubts it would cause a serious inner crisis. She would probably disregard those feelings, force herself to continue and be miserable in order to hold on to her worldview.

Edited January 17, 2018 by janedi

[Caracoa1]

Jazz is extremely fortunate that her family is supportive and has the financial means to make this surgery happen.  I think Jazz needs to open up her mind and realize that she is the exception...what about the kids who are transgender and their families just can not afford blockers or surgery...how do those parents go about helping their children cope as they are forced to go thru puberty?

[ClareWalks]

This was at least the second episode I remember where Greg butchered the idiom "few and far between" by saying "far and few between," and it bothers me more than it probably should.

[Passing Strange]

8 hours ago, MegD said:

I'm sure they talk about other things, but it just seems that all they focus on are Jazz's genitals.

So much yes. Uncle who rarely visits comes for his mother's birthday and the family talks about Jazz's genitals. Family gathers in the back yard when the college kids are home and the discussion focuses on Jazz's genitals. Jazz has infrequently seen one on one time with her sister and the subject is Jazz's genitals. Family goes out to dinner, which brings up the topic of Jazz's diet which is directly related to Jazz's genitals. It's unrealistic, boring and a little bit icky. Surely these people do something other than discuss Jazz's damn genitals. I want to see that.

[gingerella]

What I noticed in this last episode is that Ari and the twins seem more or less checked out/maxed out on the obsession with Jazz's genitals 24/7.  I feel like Ari was like, "I'm so over this shit already and I'm just going to do me now!" Ditto for the twins.  The dinner scene was..."interesting"...I'm glad that people ordered what they wanted, not what would make Jazz 'comfortable'. It's about time Jazz's family - at least her siblings - stopped catering to her every whim.  In fact, she looks positively shocked when the sibs ordered what they wanted to eat and not what SHE wanted them to eat to make her feel better.  And btw, it's really generous of her brother to go bike riding with her lazy ass, and all she did was bitch at him and call him stupid or whatever...honestly...I wanted to slap her for that shitty attitude. 

As for the therapist situation...I was relieved to see that the original therapist put the brakes on that letter nonsense too. Good for her, finally a reputable therapist on TV. I was flabbergasted that Jeanette swanned into her office expecting a letter in hand 'just because' the therapist knew Jazz since she was 3.  I loved that she said, "just because I knew at 3 doesn't mean I think she's ready for this surgery mentally and emotionally," I also appreciated the comment about Jazz possibly self-sabotaging. When Jazz was having a meltdown at home and whinging about how much she "loves to binge eat", all I could think is that this kid needs serious, ongoing psychotherapy! How can someone say "I love binging SO MUCH, I just really LOVE IT..." and her parents dont have her in a therapist's office stat?!? WTF...

[Granny58]

10 hours ago, janedi said:

I may get in trouble again for saying this, But I do not like how Jeanette has shut down the very idea that Jazz may change her mind one day and that she constantly voices this.

Jazz saying it is one thing, but Jeanette should keep her mouth closed. Her making these statements is essentially removing Jazz's freedom.   I have to wonder would Jeanette be as tolerant and supportive if Jazz decided to go back one day? Would she accept having a son again as fully as she accepted a daughter?

 

I noticed this too.  Jeanette's wording was geared to elicit the response she wanted from Jazz, that there was no way Jazz would change her mind.  Very disturbing.  To this and other posters, a woman called into our local radio station about a year ago.  She said when she was young she was certainly she was a boy and desperately wanted to be one.  She dressed like one, etc.  But boom.....she hit puberty, came out the other side and discovered she was happy to be female and so grateful she hadn't had any surgery or hormones because she was now enjoying her children and grandchildren.  Yes, this is as anecdotal as Jazz' experience, but a valid experience nonetheless.  Scientific facts (the 80%) are not mean...they simply exist.  

[Adiba]

13 hours ago, MegD said:

While Jazz may be correct about transgender kids not changing their minds, there's a vast difference between Jazz's experience and every transgender kid's. She also seems oblivious to the giant elephant in the room. The whole problem with her surgery is that she was blocked so early that there's no enough tissue available for her. So perhaps, just perhaps, the scientist might have a point. Even if the point isn't what the scientist was expecting. Just because Jazz thinks that what she had is best doesn't mean that it is, in every case. This is a highly personal decision for every family.

But then again, this is the same child that still isn't taking ownership of her weight issues. Hypnotherapy isn't a magical cure. You losing weight isn't everyone else's job. Jeanette, I hope you actually heard what Meredith the therapist said about sabotaging herself because she's not ready yet. Turns out those letters might not be so easy.

I may be mistaken, but I thought one could identify as gender-fluid (?) as well? What if a child initially believes he or she is transgender only to realize that they are fluid later in life? I don't doubt Jazz's gender identity, but it may not be that definite and obvious in every child with gender dysphoria.

[ClareWalks]

3 minutes ago, Adiba said:

I may be mistaken, but I thought one could identify as gender-fluid (?) as well? What if a child initially believes he or she is transgender only to realize that they are fluid later in life? I don't doubt Jazz's gender identity, but it may not be that definite and obvious in every child with gender dysphoria.

Yep, I recently read a book by an intersex woman and it really illuminated what a spectrum there is. And there are a lot of intersex people out there, on a continuum, with a lot of different types of intersex conditions. There are many folks (including kids) who have some confusion over their gender/sex but don't identify as transgender. Ironically, Jazz seems rather close-minded about that subject.

[Kid]

4 hours ago, Caracoa1 said:

Jazz is extremely fortunate that her family is supportive and has the financial means to make this surgery happen.  I think Jazz needs to open up her mind and realize that she is the exception...what about the kids who are transgender and their families just can not afford blockers or surgery...how do those parents go about helping their children cope as they are forced to go thru puberty?

Not to mention the tirade she throws at her father in the preview for the next episode.  There are parents who abuse, torture, neglect and kill their kids.  Plenty of parents of transgender kids throw them out on the street.  

Her dad supports her in every way and as the only responsible parent in the family, is trying to make decisions that are in the best interests of his child.  She has a lot of nerve being disrespectful to him.

[MegD]

6 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

10 hours ago, janedi said:

I may get in trouble again for saying this, But I do not like how Jeanette has shut down the very idea that Jazz may change her mind one day and that she constantly voices this.

Jazz saying it is one thing, but Jeanette should keep her mouth closed. Her making these statements is essentially removing Jazz's freedom.   I have to wonder would Jeanette be as tolerant and supportive if Jazz decided to go back one day? Would she accept having a son again as fully as she accepted a daughter?

 

I noticed this too.  Jeanette's wording was geared to elicit the response she wanted from Jazz, that there was no way Jazz would change her mind.  Very disturbing.  To this and other posters, a woman called into our local radio station about a year ago.  She said when she was young she was certainly she was a boy and desperately wanted to be one.  She dressed like one, etc.  But boom.....she hit puberty, came out the other side and discovered she was happy to be female and so grateful she hadn't had any surgery or hormones because she was now enjoying her children and grandchildren.  Yes, this is as anecdotal as Jazz' experience, but a valid experience nonetheless.  Scientific facts (the 80%) are not mean...they simply exist. 

I've said this before. Greg and Jeanette are too invested in the "Jazz is transgender, everyone should cater to her" for Jazz to ever change her mind. *Disclaimer: I am not saying that Jazz is not transgender or that she is making anything up. I am only saying that Greg and Jeanette have spent a whole lot of time, money, and energy in presenting Jazz as the face of transgender youth.* They started this when Jazz was very young. For example, when she was told that the travel soccer team had two options for her participation. She could practice with the girls and sit on the sidelines during games but not play in them or she could fully participate in the boys team. The Jennings found both of these options unacceptable and brought a lawsuit against the US Soccer Federation until they won their case against them two years later.

Although not a transgender issue, my brother played on the parochial school football team growing up. As he was a bigger kid (taller and a little bulkier), he did not meet the weight limits imposed on each level's participation. He was allowed to practice but was not allowed to play and would have to be on the sidelines the entire time. In eighth grade, for example, he was allowed on the field so long as his weight was under 110 pounds but was forbidden from touching the ball. So every Thursday and Friday, he would starve himself to get under the weight limit to play on Saturday morning. On more than one occasion, a coach complained and he would be dragged into the high school locker room (games were played at the high school) to weigh. If he was over, even by one ounce, he was stuck on the sidelines. This was devastating for my brother. It made him hate himself and gave him some body image problems. It also was a major problem when kids moved to the high school and they were put against teams where kids were much larger and had never faced the weight restrictions. (The school is placed in the state's largest school division so it competes against very large teams with access to many very large, very talented players.).

At the time, my father was deeply involved in the PTA at the elementary school and with the football boosters for the high school (other brother was on the team already, he hadn't faced the weight issues in elementary school although he was always in the "don't touch the ball" category) and could have raised a much larger objection to the rules. However, he realized that singling my brother out as the "fat kid" that needed special treatment would ultimately be more negative for him than abiding by the rules and letting him sit on the sidelines during games. Years later, we were discussing it as the rule had by then been abolished and he said that, although at the time he hated it and he thought it was entirely unfair, in some ways it was a good thing. By forcing him to sit on the sidelines, he had to learn how to encourage his team. He also learned how to stir up the crowd. He used this in high school as class president every year, team captain, and chief sports booster (for the teams that generally didn't get student fan attendance). With his friends and classmates, where he went, they followed. He would regularly organize crawfish boils and theme music for the school team (played from his boombox) so that they (and the rest of the school) knew that those teams were just as important as the football team. They are one of the few schools that regularly has a student section at tennis matches, baseball games, softball games, volleyball meets, and cross country meets. The tradition continues today, over 15 years after he graduated from the high school. He was doing similar things in college until he passed away in a freak accident.

TLDR version, there are other ways that Greg and Jeanette could have approached the soccer situation that wouldn't necessarily have made Jazz well-known. Had she taken the option of practicing and not playing with the girls' team, it's doubtful that any other team would have known the reason that one little girl wasn't playing. Perhaps she was sick or in trouble or injured. It happens. Had she taken the option of playing on the boys' team, she could have easily been "the kid with the long hair"  or "the more effeminate player." These aren't teams they see every day or even every week. These are teams that are frequently in flux because they are travel teams. Not every parent is going to want their child traveling every weekend. From reading what Jazz and her parents have said, it wasn't a problem on her local school team for her to play on the girls' team. It was only on the travel team, which is typically a more elite, hand-picked team from a particular area, that there was this problem. Having dealt with the politics of travel teams, it is also entirely possible that another little girl who didn't make the team had parents who complained in an attempt to get Jazz's spot.

Because of how Greg and Jeanette handled the situation, there would be enormous backlash against them potentially. Jeanette seems to be aware of this and, either intentionally or unintentionally, feels the need to guide Jazz to the answer that prevents any backlash against them. Even beyond that, she is potentially projecting to Jazz that she's only going to accept Jazz as a daughter, not a son. Jazz hears all these horror stories about people rejected by their families and potentially Jazz would be rejected if she decided she was gender-fluid or gay or bi or anything but transgender. That's a whole lot of pressure to put on Jazz, especially as she looks at bottom surgery. That decision is something that Jazz needs to decide is the right thing for her at the right time and not something that she feels pushed into for ratings, to make Jeanette pleased, or because someone else has decided that she needs it done before 18 to prove some point about surgery before being an adult.

[ClareWalks]

It's not even so much that Jazz would change her mind and want to present male again, it's that she might change her mind about getting a vaginoplasty (a lot of transwomen don't). The point about Jazz being nervous about the surgery and self-sabotaging is a good one. Jeanette is so busy wanting to be the Good Cop that she doesn't insist that Jazz go for counseling like she should.

[Granny58]

@MegD Thank you for sharing your story.   I haven't followed the entire Jazz story, but I do get the impression that she is a protected hot house flower.  Probably not the best approach.  I'm sorry for your loss of your brother.  

[Muffyn]

The Jennings are in a difficult situation.  They had a child who presented that her gender did not match the one assigned at birth.  She was also severely depressed and expressing signs of body dysmorphia.  They took her to therapists and doctors and, based on input from professionals and their daughters own statements, they absolutely agree Jazz is a transgender girl.  To me, they are doing everything they can to support her.  Yes, many of Jeanette's actions are based on fear; that is, a fear that her child will self harm.  I don't see evil intent here.  While I don't want to be besties with Jeanette (I find her rather wearing), I do think she is trying to do the best she can by her daughter.  I also think sometimes her fear for Jazz leads her to not push as hard as she should as a parent.  Greg seems more balanced in not wanting Jazz to go into public situations that can be harmful and being willing to push more for her to do the things she needs to do such as therapy.  That's my baseline in looking at this show.  I don't see evil.  I see good parents trying to do their best.  Yes, their child is somewhat spoiled.  Yes, she has been more centered in the family than would be expected if she did not have these issues.  But that's where they are.

As far as the other kids pulling away, they are in college now.  They are coming home more than I or many of my friends ever did.  It's time for them to build their own lives and explore how they exist outside of the family.  That's good.  

As far as some of the conversations, this episode showed too much how the sausage is made.  This was reality TV 101.  Jazz was having a normal conversation with her brothers when she remembered they were supposed to be talking about her potential surgery.  That's the storyline.  They go out to eat and everyone else orders large portions of Jazz's favorite foods - more storyline.  Watching someone diet is not generally interesting.  Watching someone be tempted is more so.  This same scene has played out on too many shows.  Jazz sees a hypnotherapist for weight loss.  Of course she does.  Reality TV shows love things like that.  

At times like these it is clear that the producers are prompting the action.  Oh, I was going to get the french onion soup but let me switch to the highest calorie option.  Then we'll pass big plates of food in front of Jazz's face.  Oops, you were having a normal interaction.  Remember we are on season 2 of when will Jazz get bottom surgery.   That is when the show becomes incredibly boring.  

On a different topic, the therapist didn't say definitively that Jazz was self-sabotaging; she said it is common prior to these types of surgery.  Yep.  In fact it is common prior to many types of surgery or other scary things.  I dd appreciate that she said she needs to speak with Jazz.  She does.  Jazz needs help, off camera, focused on her.  Jeanette could also use some help dealing with her fears and concerns.  

[Caracoa1]

If Jazz went off estrogen and had her blocker removed; how long would it be before her body would go into full blown male puberty?

[Love2dance]

16 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

This was at least the second episode I remember where Greg butchered the idiom "few and far between" by saying "far and few between," and it bothers me more than it probably should.

Oh dear, just seeing this, I bet I have mixed it up more than once myself. ?

————————————————————————————————————-

@MegD, thank you for sharing the inspiring story of your brother. So very sorry for your loss.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Love2dance
Ugh....my posts merged. I really don’t think that was appropriate.

[CousinAmy]

I don't remember little Jazz being depressed. From the earliest specials she expressed the desire to wear dresses and tiaras and sparkly things like her big sister did. I commented very early on that she had no conception of being a girl, other than an obsession with clothes and hair. There was no body dysmorphia when she was that age (they started allowing her to wear "girl clothes" when she was in kindergarten, I think) just a desire for the externals that differentiated girls - "sparkles" from boys -"gross." 

I wish someone would have a discussion with her about what being a woman means, now that she's had a lot of time to live with this. She goes on panels to talk about being transgender, but what makes a person, a woman? "Boobs and a beautiful vagina"? That's all she ever talks about. 

I'm from a much older generation, so my frame of reference might not be relevant anymore, but what about the emotional aspects of being a woman vs. being a man? What about the need for women to be more assertive, less passive? And what career path is she aiming for - by 16 she should be thinking about college, at least. Does she realize as a woman it will be harder to get hired, she'll most likely get paid less, and she will be excluded from opportunities that a man will be afforded?

Instead all she focuses on are her surgeries that are literally superficial, and ignores the rest.

[Adiba]

I agree that Jazz's parents are doing the best they can to help and support their daughter, @Muffyn. As the parent of a teen who had (seems to have abated now that she's an adult) an eating disorder and self-harmed, I can understand how absolutely terrifying it is to think your child might die if you don't help her. I myself was guilty of coddling and walking on eggshells until a family therapist told me (and her) that her illness was no excuse to "act like a jerk"-- his exact words. It was a hard at first to try to differentiate what behaviors were due to her illness and what behaviors were just because she was a somewhat bratty teen. I also had to realize that I could not "fix" her alone--she had to do the work,too. I could love and support, but I couldn't (nor was it my responsibility to) wave a magic wand and make everything perfect.

However, because this is a snark site, I understand people questioning and criticizing the show content. Yes, it is a reality show and much seen is producer-driven storyline and re-enactments, but it is a show about Jazz and her family and their real-life situation. I do think that there is way too much discussion of Jazz's genitals and the bottom surgery on the show. Also, on this episode, it did appear that any  opinions or statements that do not agree with Jazz's and Jeanette's narrative are shut down or viewed as ignorant or hateful. 

[kicotan]

16 hours ago, Caracoa1 said:

If Jazz went off estrogen and had her blocker removed; how long would it be before her body would go into full blown male puberty?

That's a good question.  I also wonder if blocking puberty negatively affects the typical growth/changes in the brain that go along with unsupressed puberty.  I looked for information online about it and there's a lot of they "just don't know" going on.

i feel sorry for Jazz in that it seems like her choices are more limited by her puberty suppression than not.

[AegisGale]

On 1/16/2018 at 11:29 PM, JocelynCavanaugh said:

The previews made it seem like the researcher would be a trans-phobic meanie, but I thought she was actually pretty reasonable. She wasn't denying trans identity, just urging caution. I think it's true that some kids outgrow gender dysphoria, or come to realize they're actually gay/bi/queer. That doesn't mean Jazz isn't truly who she is, but because she's a typical teenager whose brain is still cooking, she has trouble understanding that her experience isn't universal and anecdotes aren't enough to refute research, no matter how true they are for her.

I hope Penelope's mother got some good information from the experience and is able to help her child navigate this in a way that helps (him?) confirm his true identity. [Not trying to misgender this child, just not sure how to use pronouns in this particular situation.]

Yup, to add on to this some individuals who at one point identify as transgender come to realize later on they're gender non-confirming/non-binary. So if they were to rush into surgery and transitioning, it would still not "feel" right for them. That's why I do think it's so important to talk to therapists and if there's LQBTQ+ groups in the area go to them and talk to different individuals. Since surgery is so final and has risks to it, I would go through every channel possible to alleviate your symptoms before taking that step.

[brilliantbreakfast]

The only times watching this show that I feel anyone DOESN'T have an agenda is when Jeanette's parents are on.  IIRC, her father (Jack) is a physician.  I regard them as the voices of sanity on this show and sometimes they are the only reason I'm not sitting and watching some new bizarro Munchausen By Proxy Family .  

Notice that it is always Jeanette who pushes Jazz to go on these radio shows and TV shows with all these skeptics.  The hell with if Jazz wants to do it because she wants to be The Face of Transgender Youth(TM).  Jeanette is such a stage mama...she's doing these shows for Jeanette, not Jazz.  

Greg seems like a good guy who is very much a GUY -- and more than a little befuddled by this child.  My sense is that he's a guy who wants to do the right thing by ALL of his kids --- and his wife --- and kudos to him on all those fronts.  I've known men this this -- good, solid "family men", for whom family is the most important thing.  And part of that family man stuff is keeping your wife happy.  Jeanette is such an archetypal helicopter parent.  Her other three are in college, and this gives her an opportunity to obsess about Jazz full time.  It's no wonder Jazz wants the conversation to always be about her.  It's what she's used to.  I think Greg's instincts are good, but he is not going to do anything that might cause discord in the family.

[Caracoa1]

Jeanette has obsessed over Jazz even when the older 3 children were still living at home.....Ari, Griffin and Sander learned at a young age that their childhoods revolved around Jazz.  One day she may find herself without siblings who want to share their lives together.

[yankeefan]

On January 17, 2018 at 0:25 AM, janedi said:

 

ETA: It's absolutely outrageous that Jazz and Noelle think they know better than the scientist.

(And that's coming from someone who is skeptical of a lot of scientific "research" that comes out nowadays.)

Does jazz really think scientist shouldn't ask questions and research things just because it "negatively affects a lot of people??" So they should just keep quiet about their findings in case they hurt someones feelings??

That's an immature and borderline cultish way of thinking

And sorry but saying "well they weren't really trans" is disregarding those 100+ kids experiences and feelings That's not a real argument. It's actually kinda disturbing and again, cultish.

As a scientist I thought it was pretty arrogant of Jazz, who hasn't even graduated from high school, to think she could take on someone who publishes actual scientific research (presumably in peer reviewed journals), particularly since Jazz has already made up her mind about what she believes.  That's not how good science works.  Yes, there are scientists with agendas who try to fit the data into their preconceived theories, but they usually end up being discredited.   Good scientists follow the data to wherever it takes them, often having to change their theories because the data just doesn't support what they believed.  The peer review process isn't perfect and the study may very well have been flawed, but you don't go into it thinking "I need to disprove this" - at least not if you're honest.

Edited January 19, 2018 by yankeefan

[msrachelj]

i don't like the grandparents. especially him. he seems to be a little harsh in the way he treats his wife. i just don't like his tone much of the time. what do these two do for a living? or what did they do, i assume they are retired. and did we ever find out what is wrong with grandma? 

[yankeefan]

Grandpa is a retired physician.  In the bowling alley scene I thought he was very condescending to Grandma when explaining BMI.  And having a high BMI is not as simple as "being too fat."

[woodscommaelle]

I wonder if Jazz (Jeanette) will try to get a letter from the hypnotherapist.  Would that letter be sufficient?

2 hours ago, yankeefan said:

Grandpa is a retired physician.  In the bowling alley scene I thought he was very condescending to Grandma when explaining BMI.  And having a high BMI is not as simple as "being too fat."

If that was my grandpa (or dad or brother) I'd be in tears all the time. Dude is harsh, but not totally wrong in some of the things he says. 

[gingerella]

Jack is indeed a retired physician, he mentioned it in this last episode. That said, I find the two of them the only sane ones in that family. Perhaps they seem more harsh in their comments because they are the only ones who aren't sugar coating the situation. Usually their comments are the ones I find myself saying "Hell yes!" to. And regarding the BMI comment, grandma did not know what it meant, so he explained it.  I find them both completely refreshing and I wish they spent more time with Jazz to perhaps add another voice to her echo chamber, but alas, when she got snitty and rude with her grandpa after he was trying to answer a question - and answer it in a way she would have found "acceptable to jazz" had she bothered to let him finish his thoughts - I could see why they perhaps dont spend so much time with the family at this point. They've raised their kids, they're in their sunset years, and even though they have a grandchild with special issues she's dealing with, they also have other grandchildren and they seem to me like the sort of grandparents who're maybe give more time to the other grandkids because they see how sidelined they've become in Jazz's wake. YMMV caveat, of course.

[ClareWalks]

BMI is a fairly good measure of mortality/health despite not being perfect. If someone is particularly muscular (like a body-builder, not just a "strong" person), it will skew higher, although if someone is obese because of muscle they still have health risks. Jazz doesn't apply in this situation. In her case, her high BMI does mean she is "too fat" (or overfat, which is the technical term).

[Madding crowd]

Can you point to any scientific studies regarding BMI and mortality because I haven’t seen any. I have seen studies regarding extremes in weight both below and above, but nothing equating moderate over weight being equal to  poor mortality rates.

[ClareWalks]

4 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

Can you point to any scientific studies regarding BMI and mortality because I haven’t seen any. I have seen studies regarding extremes in weight both below and above, but nothing equating moderate over weight being equal to  poor mortality rates.

Generally speaking just being in the overweight range isn't a death sentence by any means, but being obese and being underweight are associated with higher risks of various health problems. I am guessing based on the "lose 30 lb" directive that Jazz is technically obese. That is a lot of weight to recommend losing.

[Madding crowd]

I don’t know much about Jazz’ particular surgery but wanted to point out that there really aren’t studies showing a link between mortality and moderate obesity. There may be reasons why this particular surgery is risky for someone overweight but the general idea of being overweight causing numerous health problems has not been proven by science.

[ClareWalks]

13 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

I don’t know much about Jazz’ particular surgery but wanted to point out that there really aren’t studies showing a link between mortality and moderate obesity. There may be reasons why this particular surgery is risky for someone overweight but the general idea of being overweight causing numerous health problems has not been proven by science.

There have been a LOT of studies showing the link between obesity and health problems. Too many to link to, honestly. If you google "JAMA BMI" or "NIH BMI" you will find reputable information on a number of such topics.

[CousinAmy]

They are talking about a pretty invasive surgery or two - so she needs to be in the best possible condition. Have they ever mentioned her blood pressure? Even children and teens can have hypertension due to overweight, and that could be another risk factor for her. I hope she does lose that weight - but mostly I think she has to get control of whatever is eating her. 

[yankeefan]

22 hours ago, woodscommaelle said:

I wonder if Jazz (Jeanette) will try to get a letter from the hypnotherapist. 

I thought the conversation with the hypnotherapist was interesting.  Jazz has a lot of inner turmoil going on, which is pretty normal even for teenagers who are not facing life altering surgery.  I hope she gets the help she needs to work through this.

[Emmeline]

I read an article in The Times UK that is  informative and relates to many of Jazz’s issues.  It’s about a transgender clinic for children, some of which have been using their services since the age of 3 for counseling.  One of the comments from the article:  

• About 80 per cent of the children who come to the service before adolescence eventually change their minds. Most decide that they are gay, or bisexual. Conversely, for those who come during adolescence, the figures are reversed and about 80 per cent do pursue sex reassignment.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/inside-britains-only-transgender-clinic-for-children-pdtqcf9nk

[SunnyBeBe]

I think that this thread certainly offers so much to consider regarding what we have been shown to be Jazz and her  true self.  Lots of new ideas to consider. 

I particularly agree about the issue of HOW does Jazz feel as a female.  We see a lot about Jazz saying that she is a young woman or girl, but, I don't ever really see it in her personality or feelings.  Perhaps, she is incapable of getting them, due to the hormone blockers.  But, won't that still be the case, after the surgery?  She'll stay on the blockers indefinitely, right? So, will bottom surgery actually help her feel more like a woman?  It's all so confusing to me.  Does anyone know what interests or hobbies that Jazz has, other than those related to her bottom surgery and promoting Trans issues?

Edited January 23, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[biakbiak]

On 1/21/2018 at 5:33 PM, Emmeline said:

cent of the children who come to the service before adolescence eventually change their minds. Most decide that they are gay, or bisexual. Conversely, for those who come during adolescence, the figures are reversed and about 80 per cent do pursue sex reassignment.

I get it that it's the phrasing of the study but being Trans doesnt mean that you won't also come to identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual etc. 

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, biakbiak said:

I get it that it's the phrasing of the study but being Trans doesnt mean that you won't also come to identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual etc. 

I seem to also remember that Jazz was appalled when someone suggested she might consider having relationships with women. I thought that an odd reaction given her demand that everyone be open-minded and accept her as she is, why would she be so close-minded to same sex relationships?

[TwirlyGirly]

7 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I think that this thread certainly offers so much to consider regarding what we have been shown to be Jazz and her  true self.  Lots of new ideas to consider. 

I particularly agree about the issue of HOW does Jazz feel as a female.  We see a lot about Jazz saying that she is a young woman or girl, but, I don't ever really see it in her personality or feelings.  Perhaps, she is incapable of getting them, due to the hormone blockers.  But, won't that still be the case, after the surgery?  She'll stay on the blockers indefinitely, right? So, will bottom surgery actually help her feel more like a woman?  It's all so confusing to me.  Does anyone know what interests or hobbies that Jazz has, other than those related to her bottom surgery and promoting Trans issues?

Probably not. Generally, puberty blockers are only used for a few years, to prevent puberty and buy the trans individual some time to decide whether they wish to continue to transition. When cross-hormone replacement therapy is begun, the puberty blockers usually are stopped. The cross-hormone replacement therapy allows the individual to begin the process of developing their preferred gender characteristics. Some people do continue on puberty blockers concurrent with taking cross-gender hormone replacement therapy, but I'm still unsure (and am researching) as to what the determining factors are in patients that take both simultaneously. If I find the answer, I'll update!

Edited January 23, 2018 by TwirlyGirly
Correcting information

[gingerella]

On 1/18/2018 at 3:12 PM, J. Matazz said:

That said, if you want to know about my boring day to day with bottom surgery, please hit me up in a private message, since this section is about Jazz, her life, show, etc. as someone who lives this daily-I love answering questions for people!

@J. Matazz, in light of your above comment from another epi thread, would you be willing to weigh in on what you know, firsthand, about the below two comments? I'd be interested to hear your opinions and what you know about this. Many thanks in advance!

7 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I think that this thread certainly offers so much to consider regarding what we have been shown to be Jazz and her  true self.  Lots of new ideas to consider. 

I particularly agree about the issue of HOW does Jazz feel as a female.  We see a lot about Jazz saying that she is a young woman or girl, but, I don't ever really see it in her personality or feelings.  Perhaps, she is incapable of getting them, due to the hormone blockers.  But, won't that still be the case, after the surgery?  She'll stay on the blockers indefinitely, right? So, will bottom surgery actually help her feel more like a woman?  It's all so confusing to me.  Does anyone know what interests or hobbies that Jazz has, other than those related to her bottom surgery and promoting Trans issues?

 

On 1/17/2018 at 4:44 PM, Caracoa1 said:

If Jazz went off estrogen and had her blocker removed; how long would it be before her body would go into full blown male puberty?

Edited January 23, 2018 by gingerella

[J. Matazz]

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

@J. Matazz, in light of your above comment from another epi thread, would you be willing to weigh in on what you know, firsthand, about the below two comments? I'd be interested to hear your opinions and what you know about this. Many thanks in advance!

 

Aw, thanks! Will do, just got finished with tonight's episode. :)

 

So here goes:

 

13 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I think that this thread certainly offers so much to consider regarding what we have been shown to be Jazz and her  true self.  Lots of new ideas to consider. 

I particularly agree about the issue of HOW does Jazz feel as a female.  We see a lot about Jazz saying that she is a young woman or girl, but, I don't ever really see it in her personality or feelings.  Perhaps, she is incapable of getting them, due to the hormone blockers.  But, won't that still be the case, after the surgery?  She'll stay on the blockers indefinitely, right? So, will bottom surgery actually help her feel more like a woman?  It's all so confusing to me.  Does anyone know what interests or hobbies that Jazz has, other than those related to her bottom surgery and promoting Trans issues?

 

In my experience, feeling as a young woman? It's my sense of self, belonging, connection, on a matter of emotional, physical, and sexual needs. Just like with any given individual, what those needs to be fulfilled are greatly individual independent. But consider this, at around early elementary years: We divided traditionally (so, granted, not always, surely exceptions) into boys/girls, with the icky yuck factor of one, and friends with the one we knew ourselves to be, no matter if, say, a given female is a tomboy or a girly girl. The blockers alone, that wouldn't truly change personality, though it'd likely develop maturity development, given Jazz has been on hormones for just under four years, that wouldn't apply. In theory, we should be seeing her more mature, if slightly later than her peers, given estrogen was introduced in March 2014, age 13--notably later than most females. Bottom surgery just made me feel complete as a female. Not so much more so, but like the missing piece to the puzzle, you know? As for blockers, no, those permanently stop a couple weeks before surgery, actually. Jazz's interests, not much there I can give, but she's always liked science, been given the slightest inkling that this may be her career future, though came from a slight nudging from Jeanette, though originally Jazz's idea. Always succeeding in her academics, pretty much any subject.

 

On 1/17/2018 at 7:44 PM, Caracoa1 said:

If Jazz went off estrogen and had her blocker removed; how long would it be before her body would go into full blown male puberty?

 

This is an excellent question. I can only recall hearing of a couple of cases where puberty was blocked and/or cross gonadal hormone therapy was inducted but later undone. As much as I read medical literature on the text, this is genuinely something unknown given its small sample sizes. Given Jazz's duration on estrogen, however, I am inclined to believe a male puberty would not be possible at this time. In full disclosure, this is merely my understanding of the average permanence of estrogen relative to the hormone sheet my doctor gave me years ago as a youth, and I am not a doctor. It may or may not be accurate and could very well be individual dependant. 

Edited January 24, 2018 by J. Matazz

[Impatient]

I too am a scientist and was appalled at the arrogance of Jazz and Noelle, criticizing the work of the very experienced and reasonable scientist.  So much so that it was the first time I found myself disliking Noelle.

[janedi]

44 minutes ago, Impatient said:

I too am a scientist and was appalled at the arrogance of Jazz and Noelle, criticizing the work of the very experienced and reasonable scientist.  So much so that it was the first time I found myself disliking Noelle.

I have never liked Noelle, She has always had an arrogant haughty air about her. Don't know why people like her so much. I like Jazz a lot more, because even though she's annoying and I am appalled by a lot of the things that have happened to her. I can tell that if she had had a better upbringing she would have been a great person. Jazz is the way she is because of the way she was raised. Noelle's arrogance is just her natural personality.

Edited January 24, 2018 by janedi

[gingerella]

@J. Matazz, thank you for sharing your thoughts on those questions we've been batting around. I realize that it's all dependent on the individual but it's always helpful to get firsthand knowledge from those who've experienced this transition firsthand. Thank you for being open to sharing your experiences with us, at least maybe we will learn something here, no thanks to TLC!