S02.E11: The Fifth Wheel

[MissLucas]

I think we get to see here a (within tv territory) pretty realistic picture of parents trying to do their best within challenging family dynamics. There are no big mistakes, no criminal neglect nor abuse - just tiny stuff that like pebbles can amass over the years to something damaging. Recognizing those patterns - and the writers have been doing a great job presenting them - does not equal calling Rebecca and Jack bad parents - they're just parents. All the issues coming to the forefront this season have already been there in season one: Kevin flying under the parental radar, Rebecca being over-protective of Randall, Jack enabling Kate's over-eating.

[tennisgurl]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLESEq2dRVY

I just saw the new episode of Crazy Ex Girlfriend, and I thought this song was strangely appropriate for our discussion on Kevin and his issues. 

*spoiler warnings for break ups and trigger warnings for sad stripping set to club music. 

[ErinV]

On 1/9/2018 at 10:08 PM, Dreamboat Annie said:

So would I.  That seems to be an ongoing situation throughout.  She's right about being "the bad guy".  For example, she suggests to Kate that she slice up an apple for herself and Kate because they've both had enough cookies for the day, and Jack enters the house announcing they're going on vacation.  And, she really is undermined at every turn when it comes to her concern re Kate's eating, and I'm sure it would not be long before you would feel so alone in it.  But Jack loving his little girl so much and seeing her as the most perfect and beautiful human being would be, I am sure, very hard to fight.  It would have been nice if Rebecca and Jack had been on the same page with concern for Kate's weight and health. 

Agreed.  In this episode, I thought Rebecca was handling Kate’s eating very well - I’ve been in her shoes and this is the advice I’ve received from doctors. Keep it casual, say “we” instead of “you”, etc. (The grapefruit scene last season; I didn’t think she handled it well there).  Jack’s focus on getting more exercise was also good, then he totally screwed it up by taking her for ice cream.  You are NOT helping her, Jack.  Also, find exercise that she likes, not football. And this goes beyond a good cop/bad cop thing...Jack is really not helping Kate at all. 

On 1/10/2018 at 6:20 AM, ShadowFacts said:

I agree with this.  With Kate, she is making some forward progress relationship-wise because she and Toby have a pretty healthy one where he accepts her and she feels loved.  She still has a lot of work to do with her eating but she is becoming more analytical about that, too.  Randall also has a healthy relationship with Beth and an ongoing closeness with his mom.  Kevin has none of the relationship advantages that Randall and Kate currently do, plus he had a more fraught relationship with Jack right before he died. 

One thing about the cabin scenes -- Randall and Kate just happened to be awakened by the thunderstorm earlier than Kevin did, and hence were in the bed with their parents, leaving no room for him.  That was happenstance, no one was leaving Kevin out, yet Rebecca went and slept on the hard floor next to him.  That says a lot about her; I don't know that I would have done it.  No, I know I wouldn't have.  When my kids were little and looking for storm comfort and the bed was full, I would make a little nest on the floor right next to the bed with blankets and pillows underneath to make it softer, but we had carpet, too.  That cabin floor looked like it didn't.  Yet she went down there despite the fact that he had been quite unlovable that day.  I give her an 'A' for parenting Kevin right there.  She recognized his need and responded to it. 

Kid Kevin breaks my heart, and no more so than in this scene.  I was really hoping he’d wake up and realize his mom had laid down next to him.  And the Rebecca’s “I know we had our moments - I feel it in my bones” - you can’t think of one example??  Kevin seemed ok with that answer but I wish she’d given him something concrete.   Also - great looking for your glasses Randall...sort of in plain sight right there under the bed!  Ha

On 1/10/2018 at 10:37 PM, MarysWetBar said:

This really spoke to me. My Dad died when I was 17, and we had a relationship like Kate and Jack. My mother was the strict one and always all over my ass about everything. Especially as a teenager. It wasn't until I had kids of my own that I got closer to my mom. Of course the dead parent is a saint...they didn't live long enough to ever disappoint you or you them. Less time for all the disagreements and squabbles a full messy life brings to a parent/ child relationship. This season is really bringing up things for me. Great writing.

I was hoping we were going to see scenes that showed Jack as not-perfect, but it appears that they all still see him as perfect - Evan Rebecca.  Well, that’s the most harmless portrayal of an alcoholic that I’ve ever seen, then (rolls eyes). He never had one bad consequence involving his kids?  

On 1/13/2018 at 2:51 PM, catrox14 said:

Kevin is taking responsibility for his actions by going to rehab and he'll be facing charges of some kind. He didn't say she was a terrible parent. He said he felt alone and ignored. If Beth is taking it in that she's a terrible parent that's how she's receiving the message. Not what he's saying necessarily. 

A child can be emotionally neglected even they are fed and clothed and have two parents in the household. Especially a household with alcoholism. Because that is what rules the house. Everyone is worrying about whether Jack will drink, or not. Can he be relied upon or not? Will he come home drunk? Will he come home at all? Do his moods  affect everyone around him? Trust is hard to come by at times in a home with alcoholism.

Excellent description of life with an alcoholic.  I wish we could see some of this with Jack.  We really don’t see his alcoholism hurting anyone except Rebecca in maybe one episode.  

[NutMeg]

One thing that's worth remembering is that Rebecca initially had trouble bonding with Randall, and because she may have felt guilty about that she overcompensated later on and made sure she kept "bonded" to him. On top of that, she had to carry the fact that she was keeping knowledge of his father from him, so that's an added layer of guilt. 

Before I had kids, if I pictured myself as having more than one, I planned to have some special time with each of them in turn*. One-on-one is the most in-depth contact you can have with someone you care about, as I see it, even if group/family activities are tremendous fun and something to develop for not only fun but also shared memories.

(*I ended up having just the one, and made sure the two of us had special times and routines, in addition to time and fun with his dad).

While Kevin was the one who got the short end of the family stick, I hope that he might be the most resilient of the three as a consequence. (I'm probably projecting here, having been the Kevin in my family.)

Jack's alcoholism being swept under the carpet by Rebecca is intriguing at this point. I understand that she wants to protect his image without realising how damaging that incomplete image can be to her kids. On the other hand, we haven't seen any interaction of drunk Jack with kids (yet), although his pity party to teenage Kate comes petty close.

21 hours ago, deaja said:

But it’s very much a case of the chicken or the egg- is he better to her because he’s always been her favorite or is he her favorite because he treats her better.

He was treated as a favorite pretty much from the get go, from when Rebecca got to bond with him as a baby. Being treated better as a kid may bring an inner obligation to treat the parent better as a result? (speculating) But that's an added responsibility which come with its own drawbacks (panic attacks, for once). I've seen that dynamics in my family.

The more I think about it and the more I think that Jack was a very bad dad, who put being number one in his daughter's eyes above doing what was good for her in the longer term. And in this episode was a crappy dad to Kevin.

All the rest I've wanted to say about the episode has already been said :)

[GodsBeloved]

On 1/10/2018 at 6:20 AM, ShadowFacts said:

One thing about the cabin scenes -- Randall and Kate just happened to be awakened by the thunderstorm earlier than Kevin did, and hence were in the bed with their parents, leaving no room for him.  That was happenstance, no one was leaving Kevin out, yet Rebecca went and slept on the hard floor next to him.  That says a lot about her; I don't know that I would have done it.  No, I know I wouldn't have.  When my kids were little and looking for storm comfort and the bed was full, I would make a little nest on the floor right next to the bed with blankets and pillows underneath to make it softer, but we had carpet, too.  That cabin floor looked like it didn't.  Yet she went down there despite the fact that he had been quite unlovable that day.  I give her an 'A' for parenting Kevin right there.  She recognized his need and responded to it. 

I think recognizing your child's need and meeting it is a parent's reasonable service regardless of whether or not they have been lovable.

On 1/10/2018 at 6:20 AM, ShadowFacts said:

I agree with this.  With Kate, she is making some forward progress relationship-wise because she and Toby have a pretty healthy one where he accepts her and she feels loved.  She still has a lot of work to do with her eating but she is becoming more analytical about that, too.  Randall also has a healthy relationship with Beth and an ongoing closeness with his mom.  Kevin has none of the relationship advantages that Randall and Kate currently do, plus he had a more fraught relationship with Jack right before he died.

Good point. I never thought about this.

[nexxie]

Why did Kevin and his wife divorce?

[GodsBeloved]

3 minutes ago, nexxie said:

Why did Kevin and his wife divorce?

He cheated on her.

[nexxie]

3 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

He cheated on her.

Thanks!

[NutMeg]

37 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

I think recognizing your child's need and meeting it is a parent's reasonable service regardless of whether or not they have been lovable.

Preach it! I'd say the less lovable the kid act, the more love he or she needs attention, love and cuddles. Because a kid acting out means the kid has a problem and needs support. 

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, GodsBeloved said:

I think recognizing your child's need and meeting it is a parent's reasonable service regardless of whether or not they have been lovable.

1 hour ago, NutMeg said:

Preach it! I'd say the less lovable the kid act, the more love he or she needs attention, love and cuddles. Because a kid acting out means the kid has a problem and needs support. 

Ideally, yes, sulky behavior requires response though not necessarily cuddles, words are good, too.  In the instance I cited Kevin may not have even known mom was there, so I saw that as an act of pure love on her part.  My own interpretation (maybe because I wanted to see it) was that he had a contented look on his little sleeping face and that he knew. 

[GodsBeloved]

33 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Ideally, yes, sulky behavior requires response though not necessarily cuddles, words are good, too.  In the instance I cited Kevin may not have even known mom was there, so I saw that as an act of pure love on her part.  My own interpretation (maybe because I wanted to see it) was that he had a contented look on his little sleeping face and that he knew. 

I agree. I thought Kevin knew subconsciously that his mom was there with him.

[pancake bacon]

On 1/10/2018 at 3:37 AM, Katy M said:

I don't think it makes sense for the rest of the family to have to miss out on a week of last minute vacation just because Kevin wasn't available until the following week.  If they had planned it from the beginning of summer and not worked it around Kevin's schedule that would have been one thing. But, Jack just jumped on a last minute available cabin.  It was then, or not at all.

No, you pick up Kevin early from camp… Or if the camp was "close by", how about dropping by to visit him, and surprise Kevin that they were going to have some cabin fun nearby when camp was done. They could've thought more about it, but they didn't. Yes, hindsight is 20/20, and not thinking a bit more doesn't mean bad parenting. But it's realizing things weren't perfect. 

[Katy M]

7 hours ago, pancake bacon said:

No, you pick up Kevin early from camp…

Why on earth should Kevin have to miss out on the rest of camp just because his parents got an opportunity for a vacation?  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The major problem with the whole "Kevin was at football camp when everyone else started vacation at the cabin" could have easily been solved by just going after Kevin was done with football camp. Jack said that this was his boss's cabin, meaning he owned it. It's not like his boss said he rented a cabin for a week and something came up so Jack could use it but ONLY that week. But of course Jack was like an excited puppy dog so he decided that they had to go to the cabin IMMEDIATELY and announced this to Kate and Randall before even discussing it with Rebecca or considering that Kevin was away at camp.

Edited January 15, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The major problem with the whole "Kevin was at football camp when everyone else started vacation at the cabin" could have easily been solved by just going after Kevin was done with football camp. Jack said that this was his boss's cabin, meaning he owned it. It's not like his boss said he rented a cabin for a week and something came up so Jack could use it but ONLY that week. But of course Jack was like an excited puppy dog so he decided that they had to go to the cabin IMMEDIATELY and announced this to Kate and Randall before even discussing it with Rebecca or considering that Kevin was away at camp.

I don't think he had unlimited dates that he could use it.  It didn't seem to me to be presented that way. And again, I don't see why the family should miss out on a few extra days at the cabin just because Kevin wasn't there.  Kate and Randall apparently didn't get to go to camp, but nobody's bemoaning their loss.

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I don't think he had unlimited dates that he could use it.  It didn't seem to me to be presented that way. And again, I don't see why the family should miss out on a few extra days at the cabin just because Kevin wasn't there.  Kate and Randall apparently didn't get to go to camp, but nobody's bemoaning their loss.

Well, Jack did say, when he brought Kevin to the cabin, that they'd be staying until the following week. I'm not sure exactly how many more days it would have been, but it still sucked that Jack couldn't have given not only Rebecca a couple of extra days to prepare instead of saying "we'll leave first thing in the morning", but if he waited until closer to the end of Kevin's time at camp so he wouldn't feel like he was left out on a family vacation. I think, for kids like Kevin who crave more one on one time with their parents, it sucks to be left out like that. And like Kevin mentioned when he got to the cabin, he wasn't told about the spontaneous trip until he was picked up by Jack. It must have been shitty to feel like the entire family had gotten to spend a fun time at the cabin together while one was left out, even if he was at football camp. It may not be rational, but most kids aren't rational at that age. All they see is that they were left out. 

And then, add on top of Rebecca choosing to read with Randall instead of watching Jack and Kevin toss around a football to see what he learned, and Jack choosing to put Kate first instead of paying full attention to Kevin, and I think it's a rough decision. It may not be a huge deal all around that Jack chose to take the family on vacation but have Kevin join later, but it's the little moments like that which can add up. It may seem stupid or petty to some, but it might have meant something to someone like Kevin. It was just about Jack not completely thinking things through. He was thinking about taking the family on a fun vacation and "oh, Kevin will still get to be there after camp", without considering how Kevin himself might feel. But Jack also did it to Rebecca when telling Randall and Kate that they would leave first thing in the morning. Jack's kind of a selfish character in that regard. He thinks about the outcome to an extent, but it's more about himself than others. He thinks making these big romantic or family-centered gestures is the right thing, but it's not always right. Being able to discuss these big plans with his wife before going straight to the kids or making the decisions first is the right thing to do. Sure, Jack's intentions are good, but the way he goes about it is pretty wrong. 

Edited January 15, 2018 by Lady Calypso

[Pallas]

On 1/12/2018 at 10:10 AM, Clanstarling said:

The twins were born prematurely, right? I read a long time ago that premature children often don't like being touched as they grow older. My oldest was premature and she has never liked being held, as soon as she could move on her own, she was all "don't touch me" (non verbally, of course). She'll endure a hug, but she does not care for it. I, too, was premature and have some of the same problem - only it's more with people outside my inner circle. I don't get mani pedis or massages for that reason. So maybe this is the issue with the twins (though frankly, that's going a little deeper than I think the writers are going)

Thank you, Clanstarling: that sheds light on a friend's refusal ever to let "strangers" cut her hair -- as well as some quirks of my own. Apparently there are a host of neurological reasons why some people, from birth, resist being touched: either especially by their closest kin, or especially by strangers.

My sense is that Rebecca and Randall are alike in being driven, hard-working, responsible, disciplined, resilient, managerial and very anxious people. (Qualities the show has suggested in Kate the talented PA, but to nowhere near Randall's degree.) But in the Pearson family, Kate and Kevin -- like it or not -- are the two people biologically related to Rebecca. She shares a neurological imprint with them, and among us animals, anxiety transmits most strongly between like and like. Rebecca's anxiety transmits on a frequency that Kate and Kevin are hard-wired to receive, and react to. 

In the Unpopular Opinions thread, MissLucas said, 

Quote

And while I can easily see how the family constellation and its underlying dynamics caused Kevin to lash out against Randall I still believe there's a piece missing to explain his behavior to its full extent and that has to do with the other dead Pearson. We know how Randall learned about Kyle but we still don't know when and how Rebecca and Jack talked to Kate and Kevin about the fact that they're not twins but actually triplets. If you google twinless twin there's plenty of evidence that the loss of a womb-sibling can have a profound effect on the survivor(s). Experts also advise to talk to the survivor(s) as soon as possible about the loss. From all we've seen Jack and Rebecca didn't do that; not blaming them - research is recent and they were probably afraid it would make matters worse for Randall.

Thank you, @MissLucas. I've felt for awhile that the root of Kevin's problem with Randall is not that Randall's adopted, but that Randall isn't Kyle. Kevin may have felt that loss from birth, long before he learned there was a Kyle -- if he ever did. Whatever Kevin knows about Kyle, it's a loss he doesn't understand and can't articulate, which is why he looked so sincerely troubled when Jack asked him why he had a problem with Randall. 

This is a show about a family made from loss. On the day that the Big Three were born, Randall lost a mother and a father, Kate lost a brother and Kevin may have lost an identical twin. It may be another reason -- beyond his parents' inattention, deeper and more powerful -- why Kevin always felt he never was enough. He wasn't missing something; he was missing someone. He was only half of how he started. 

But I think he may be on to something. Kevin loved Sloan's play: connected with it viscerally, and was inspired by it to paint his This Is Us logo. The play was called Back of an Egg. In its last moment, Kevin's character is left by a ghost. As he sits at their kitchen table, trying to make peace with that departure, he holds an egg and turns it in his hand: as if finally facing the dark side of the moon.

[MissLucas]

It's interesting to see how different people take the whole cabin thing - just like the Pearsons. It doesn't help that the dialogue about is murky. Jack said they would get the cabin for a whole week and that he would pick up Kevin on Friday. This sounds as if Kevin would only spend the weekend there, yet when Jack brings Kevin to the cabin and Kevin complains that they were on vacation without him Jack says 'only a few days' and that they would stay 'until next week'. There's enough ambiguity here to give both sides valid arguments.

[Lady Calypso]

8 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Thank you, @MissLucas. I've felt for awhile that the root of Kevin's problem with Randall is not that Randall's adopted, but that Randall isn't Kyle. Kevin may have felt that loss from birth, long before he learned there was a Kyle -- if he ever did. Whatever Kevin knows about Kyle, it's a loss he doesn't understand and can't articulate, which is why he looked so sincerely troubled when Jack asked him why he had a problem with Randall. 

I'd like to think that Rebecca and Jack, at some point, told Kevin and Kate about Kyle. Actually, I'm pretty sure they did. Now I'm remembering back in the Number Two episode, Rebecca is talking to Kate about the loss of Kyle, so they did find out at some point. Now, I'm wondering if they told Kevin/Kate before they told Randall and how that affected both siblings, but perhaps Kevin does feel a greater sense of loss if Kyle was his identical twin. I'm looking forward to the scene when they finally show them finding out by either Rebecca or Jack. We got to have that scene with Randall finding out, but I think it's even more important for Kevin and Kate to be shown finding out. 

Either way, I do feel like we'll eventually get Kevin's explanation as to why he feels so hostile toward Randall, besides him being Rebecca's clear favourite. At least, I'd like to think that they'll start opening up that conversation this season or next. Because there's a lot of speculation, but in the end, we don't know the precise reason. Not even last season, Kevin talked about it much, even when Randall has asked him about it. And maybe with him in therapy now, the family might start opening up more. Let's face it; this family is pretty messed up and they still have a lot of healing to do. They avoided it for so long, especially after Jack's death, that it'll be harder to get through their issues but at least it's better late than never. 

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Pallas said:

This is a show about a family made from loss. On the day that the Big Three were born, Randall lost a mother and a father, Kate lost a brother and Kevin may have lost an identical twin. It may be another reason -- beyond his parents' inattention, deeper and more powerful -- why Kevin always felt he never was enough. He wasn't missing something; he was missing someone. He was only half of how he started. 

Love this insight. 

[Evenshorter]

On 1/9/2018 at 10:04 PM, mtlchick said:

Let's get the hard part of the way: man, those therapy scenes were INTENSE.  When Rebecca finally broke down, I was completely drained from the last 5 minutes.  

We don't need hybrid names, show.  Ka-Toby?

"That I was raised by white peo--" "Everybody knows."  I laughed a lot at that line.  

"He did look like a porn star."  At last, the show admits to the thought i had since the beginning.  (Not that I mind.) But I did like that Susan,  Toby and Miguel had something in common; while they are in relationships with Pearson family members, they're not "family."  And in some ways, it sucks. 

 

More thoughts later.  I'm still trying to wrap my head about NBC mislabeling Chrissy Metz as Halle Berry at the Golden Globes.  You had ONE job, peacock! 

I also saw pics online (either Us or People) who mislabeled Chrissy Metz as Chrissy Teigen.....

[kili]

Quote

I think, for kids like Kevin who crave more one on one time with their parents, it sucks to be left out like that. And like Kevin mentioned when he got to the cabin, he wasn't told about the spontaneous trip until he was picked up by Jack. It must have been shitty to feel like the entire family had gotten to spend a fun time at the cabin together while one was left out, even if he was at football camp. It may not be rational, but most kids aren't rational at that age.

I shared my first apartment with a good friend. A few days before we were scheduled to move in, my friend mentioned that she'd talked to the rental agent and we could move in early if we liked. I had arranged for help to move in on the weekend (our original move in day), but said it was fine if she moved in earlier. I guess I'd always built up moving into my first apartment in my mind - the mutual exploring and deciding where to put things. By the time I'd moved in, she'd already lived their three days and everything was already decided. This is the drawer for the cutlery, the couch was going to face this window rather than that (it was a corner apartment) and "this is the shelf in the fridge for you can put your food on." It was clear I was moving into her apartment. It really was no big deal, but I was briefly a little disappointed that I didn't get to put my stamp on the common areas  which is not what I had envisioned, but should have realized was going to happen when she moved in a few days before me. It's just a little example of what happens when somebody arrives later.

Kevin faced the same thing (and remember, his clueless dad didn't even inform him that they had already been on vacation for some number of days already - he found out when he arrived. He had no time to process it until he was in the middle of it). The vacation had already settled into its grooves. They already had special nightly traditions of which he had not part in forming (and we know how important traditions are to the Pearsons). They already had their set routines. Kate and Jack would go for ice cream in the afternoon while Rebecca and Randall read. Kevin was the interloper.  Jack used Kevin briefly to try to get Kate to exercise, but quickly reverted to the old routine of spending the afternoon walking to the ice cream parlor with Kate. Rebecca and Randall didn't alter their routine at all, not even to look up and see the new skill that Kevin had developed. Kevin spent his first afternoon of vacation alone.  I presume the beds had already been picked (Kevin was not in the bunk-bed which is usually a child's favourite) and that the seating arrangements at dinner were likely already decided. He was the Fifth Wheel for that vacation. The add on to their vacation. Of course he felt like an outsider especially when they did not modify their afternoon activities.

What Jack and Rebecca did wasn't horrible or life scarring. It was just one little example where they didn't think of the message that they were sending. We all do it. Kevin internalized all these little examples and it left him with the perception that he was not worthy or enough.

[theatremouse]

It's also a situation in which the parents basically would need to read his mind. If he were at football camp, and we were told repeatedly Football Is Kevin's Thing, then it might seem a no brainer, why the hell would he want to be pulled out of camp for a vacation he didn't even know was happening? Now that we're seeing this flashback in the middle of a storyline about Kevin feeling left out, sure, yeah, it's obvious he felt left out. But in the moment, they could've just as easily decided to leave him at camp (and/or not postpone the rest of them going on the vacation) because they wanted to do this thing and thought Kevin genuinely would rather be doing what he were already doing. The whole premise is really clunky to me to begin with. The concept of a "drop everything, dude let me borrow a cabin" for more than just a weekend feels forced and weird, but taking what the show is giving, that that's a thing that would happen and make any sense, letting him finish his specialty camp that he had probably been looking forward to is not such a weird choice to me.

[-pj-]

I think the pool episode was better at showing how Kevin felt left out than this one. You saw Jacks focus on Kate but Rebecca wasn’t focusing her attention on Randell but it came across to Kevin as she was. She mentioned his glasses as she knows he might tease him and gentle asks him not to. She reads alongside Randell not with him as neither wanted to play football at that moment. She asks him if he took his glasses as she knows her sons. She knows he might have taken it and asks him. I don’t see what’s wrong in that. But I see Kevin’s pov. 

[GodsBeloved]

28 minutes ago, theatremouse said:

It's also a situation in which the parents basically would need to read his mind. If he were at football camp, and we were told repeatedly Football Is Kevin's Thing, then it might seem a no brainer, why the hell would he want to be pulled out of camp for a vacation he didn't even know was happening? Now that we're seeing this flashback in the middle of a storyline about Kevin feeling left out, sure, yeah, it's obvious he felt left out. But in the moment, they could've just as easily decided to leave him at camp (and/or not postpone the rest of them going on the vacation) because they wanted to do this thing and thought Kevin genuinely would rather be doing what he were already doing. The whole premise is really clunky to me to begin with. The concept of a "drop everything, dude let me borrow a cabin" for more than just a weekend feels forced and weird, but taking what the show is giving, that that's a thing that would happen and make any sense, letting him finish his specialty camp that he had probably been looking forward to is not such a weird choice to me.

But they didn't have to read Kevin's mind. They could have picked up a phone, called and given him the option of leaving camp early. If that wasn't viable at least Kevin would have known the family started the vacation and thought enough to let him know.

[Guest]

On 1/12/2018 at 6:18 PM, Drumpf1737 said:

This is a curious position since parents rarely have the difficult conversations with their kids. Aren't we always bemoaning parents not talking to their kids about sex? Unless Jack was a falling down, urinating on the Christmas tree kind of alcoholic I can see them thinking it's not something they need to talk to the kids about. However, the big 3 are grown ass adults and have been for 17 years at this point. Wouldn't an intelligent person be more careful with narcotics and alcohol knowing the family history? 

Not to mention you'd have to be living under a rock to not realize that celebrities die of overdoses all the time, due to their circumstances.  The therapist basically accusing Rebecca was just clunky writing.   Therapy isn't about finding scapegoats.  

I don't think it was rude to go to a cabin while Kevin was at football camp.  He's at a special fun place, why can't the other kids go camp, too?  It's not like they went to Disney World.  

I thought it was also clunky that Kevin walks in from a car ride with his dad and asks if the family moved.  Like Jack didn't tell him in the car?  

For all the talk of old Rebecca's bad Diane Keaton wig (I think it's pretty realistic), didn't anyone else find themselves distracted by Kate's actual hair this episode?  That unflattering updo and the super dark roots made it look more like a wig than Mandy's.  

[-pj-]

They may have been more spectible to addiction through family history but it wasn’t as if Kevin didn’t know. He knew when he started taking him as he didn’t want to when he started. 

I don’t get why Kevin was that annoyed the family started off without him. I mean he was at football camp something he would have enjoyed without them. No one else , that we know of went to camp that year. As a child what would you prefer staying in a camp at something you enjoy or being stuck with your family in the middle of the woods. I mean there wasn’t a huge amount going on there.  

 

With the therpist, she seem to pick sides rather stating neural and posing the questions. She came across brash and accusing. Kevin felt left out and believes Rebecca loved Randell more than him. Rebecca says she didn’t and loved all of them. That’s where they needed help ie the therapist should have asked why he felt like that, given an example so they could discuss it and Rebecca could explain her reasons why and begun a dialogue or conversation rather building into the resentment and now adding extra by Rebecca truthful but emotional outburst.

[ShadowFacts]

50 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Not to mention you'd have to be living under a rock to not realize that celebrities die of overdoses all the time, due to their circumstances.  The therapist basically accusing Rebecca was just clunky writing.   Therapy isn't about finding scapegoats.  

I don't think it was rude to go to a cabin while Kevin was at football camp.  He's at a special fun place, why can't the other kids go camp, too?  It's not like they went to Disney World.  

I thought it was also clunky that Kevin walks in from a car ride with his dad and asks if the family moved.  Like Jack didn't tell him in the car?  

For all the talk of old Rebecca's bad Diane Keaton wig (I think it's pretty realistic), didn't anyone else find themselves distracted by Kate's actual hair this episode?  That unflattering updo and the super dark roots made it look more like a wig than Mandy's.  

I agree with most of this.  Perhaps, though, the therapist was trying to peel back why the family doesn't talk about the elephant in the room and that was her maybe too pointed way of doing it.

Kevin and camp- parents get to make the executive decisions, they don't need to consult each kid first. 

That's funny, this is the first time I didn't get distracted by Rebecca's bad wig, and maybe it was for the same reason, that Kate's hair trumped (no pun intended).

[kili]

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I thought it was also clunky that Kevin walks in from a car ride with his dad and asks if the family moved.  Like Jack didn't tell him in the car?  

Well, in Kevin's defense. Suddenly moving the family to a new house is something Jack would do.

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I don't think it was rude to go to a cabin while Kevin was at football camp.  He's at a special fun place, why can't the other kids go camp, too? 

I understand the reasons why they did what they did, but they could have made a small effort to make him feel included. It wouldn't have killed Rebecca to put down the book for a few minutes and watch her son throw the ball. They could have mixed up the vacation groove a bit to make a new inclusive routine. It makes sense for one parent to spend the afternoon with one child and the other with the other child when there are two kids. When a third kid arrives, maybe modify that plan a little so the new kid doesn't have to stand on the grass playing football with himself (seems like an unsatisfying game). Maybe introduced some new evening activity (charades? board game? ghost stories?) to coincide with his arrival so that it's not fifth wheeling him into an established pattern.

They probably should have sent the other kids to camp too. Any camp would have distracted Kate from focusing on food and would likely have upped her physical activity quota. Plus, getting her into a new place away from Kevin (who seemed to eat up the oxygen in the classroom) would have given her a chance to find her own place. Camp could helped with Randall's anxiety by exposing him to a non-academic environment. That school was probably a pressure cooker. Who knows why they didn't go? Maybe they didn't want to. Maybe Randall was at space camp in early July while Kate was in whatever camp in late July and August was Kevin's turn. We don't know.

[Katy M]

18 minutes ago, kili said:

It makes sense for one parent to spend the afternoon with one child and the other with the other child when there are two kids.

Actually, it doesn't to me.  when I was a  kid and we went on vacation, we did pretty much everything together. Vacation was family time, not split up into smaller groups time.

[theatremouse]

1 hour ago, GodsBeloved said:

But they didn't have to read Kevin's mind. They could have picked up a phone, called and given him the option of leaving camp early. If that wasn't viable at least Kevin would have known the family started the vacation and thought enough to let him know.

My personal experience is probably too small a sample size, but incoming calls to intensive sports camp were more of a reserved for emergencies thing. This was pre cell phone, so it would've been odd to call him at camp to discuss something like that. They must've called the camp office to give a new number where they could be reached in case of emergency about him, but just calling the kid to chat, at the camps I'm familiar with, would've been an odd thing to do. He could call them, possibly from a payphone (...if he knew their number...) but the other way around was pretty much Not Done.

My main point was the parents had a decent enough reason to think they were rolling with a plan he'd be happy with. They were wrong, but not so completely out of line that I think it's ridiculous it didn't occur to them to do otherwise, and I do think it's totally reasonable they didn't call to ask him. I think that was part of the point here. Everyone is all defensive because none of the stuff that made Kevin feel so left out were super massively conspicuous or malicious. At the pool, he at least said "hey you're ignoring me"; he made his feelings known. But in a lot of these other situations, he's all bottled up and resentful and the rest of the family thought he was fine because he didn't say he wasn't. and they didn't ask. It's an epic failure of communication all around. Because none of these events were obvious intentional mistreatment, everybody is all "don't blame me!"

Don't get me wrong, I could nitpick for six hours all the things I think are stupid about how and why this cabin trip even came about in the first place. But I think what they were going for is that all these little things that seemed like no big to deal to some of the family (and if you take those things in a vacuum, which to many people would also have felt like no big deal) to Kevin eventually added up to a pattern that became its own Big Deal.

[Dreamboat Annie]

On ‎2018‎-‎01‎-‎10 at 0:37 AM, Rowan said:

In all fairness, Beth didn't want to go. Randall played his Kevin was there for me card, and it also seemed like all the significant "Others" mistakenly thought their presence was required. 

Pressure or no pressure, Beth is an adult and made her decision to go.  If she truly didn't want to go, and knew she couldn't be supportive of Kevin and his efforts to become well, then she had no business being there.  I could see Miguel and Toby mistakenly thinking their presence was required, but Beth would certainly know that the presence of anyone harbouring ill will toward the patient is never required.  Based on her reaction when asked to leave, she was pissed she couldn't stay to get her digs in and make her negative feelings known, and seemed to try her best to do that on her way out anyway.  That makes it more about herself than the reason she knew she was there - to support Kevin in his recovery.

[ErinV]

On 1/14/2018 at 5:35 PM, GodsBeloved said:

I think recognizing your child's need and meeting it is a parent's reasonable service regardless of whether or not they have been lovable.

Good point. I never thought about this.

Re:unlovable.  True, it is a parent’s job,but damn if it isn’t hard when the kid has been so difficult that day.  Though it usually is easier when they’re sweetly sleeping.  I just loved that scene with Rebecca.  

On 1/14/2018 at 8:12 PM, GodsBeloved said:

I agree. I thought Kevin knew subconsciously that his mom was there with him.

Oh I love this thought!  I have my own difficult little boy, and i always snuggle him when he’s asleep (sometimes the only time he lets me), and I like to think that he knows I’m there.

[candall]

I thought the therapy session was terrific, and fairly realistic.  The whole family has been operating for years on the premise that Kevin's primary issue is:  "Not Dealing With Jack's Death."  Ha, surprise, family, not quite so much as this other thing, the unhealed wound of having felt like The Fifth Wheel.

(I spent a lot of hours talking to various counselors when I was younger and some sessions were a waste of time, but those were more than made up for by the occasional Bing! moments.  Highly recommended.)

 

Smaller observation:  Toby wearing that cap so far back on his head (in the bar) was an unfortunate styling choice.  Someone finally yanked it forward for his final scene with Kate.  Whew.

[SnarkySheep]

On 1/9/2018 at 10:08 PM, Runningwild said:

I’m really growing to dislike Beth.

Same...in this episode, she was downright b*tchy, from having to go to Kevin in the first place, to getting told that the therapy session was for immediate family only. Seriously, lady? It's nothing personal. As was quickly apparent, a lot of the siblings' issues go back to childhood - a time when Beth wasn't there - so it only makes sense that the session was limited to them and their mother. Also, there were already a good number of people in the room. How productive would it have been if that number were DOUBLED, and everyone started talking over each other, yelling, or just clamming up? Sheesh, Beth. 

I also didn't like the way that Beth (and Randall too) kept putting the sole blame on Tess being in the car upon Kevin. Yes, he was in the wrong, driving drunk; but he had NO idea that Tess was in the car with him. He didn't invite her along; Tess is a big girl who made a conscious decision to sneak away from the house and stow away in her uncle's car. Yes, I understand she's a kid, but she is old enough to know that what she did was wrong. Even Annie would know that. 

On 1/9/2018 at 10:41 PM, Lady Calypso said:

What messed up family goes on vacation without one of there kids. When Jack was saying that Kevin's camp was close by I thought they were picking him up right away not five days later. There is no child on the planet that wouldn't feel unwanted and unloved if that happened to them.

Well, as others have pointed out, it was a last-minute thing, and essentially if they didn't go then, they wouldn't have been able to go at all. IMO it wouldn't have been right to deprive the other kids of a chance at a vacation just because Kevin would miss a few days. As it was, Kevin was the only child in the family who was lucky enough to go to camp...there was no mention of Randall or Kate having gone anywhere. So he should already have felt special, though of course, as a kid and already having various issues in that department, it's unlikely that he saw it that way.

[Crs97]

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It's also a situation in which the parents basically would need to read his mind. If he were at football camp, and we were told repeatedly Football Is Kevin's Thing, then it might seem a no brainer, why the hell would he want to be pulled out of camp for a vacation he didn't even know was happening? Now that we're seeing this flashback in the middle of a storyline about Kevin feeling left out, sure, yeah, it's obvious he felt left out. But in the moment, they could've just as easily decided to leave him at camp (and/or not postpone the rest of them going on the vacation) because they wanted to do this thing and thought Kevin genuinely would rather be doing what he were already doing. 

This is one of those stories that could play either way.  They could just as easily been sitting in therapy hearing from Kevin how unfair it was that they pulled him early from football camp, knowing how important football already was to him, just to go on a last-minute family vacation.  He could think of himself as a victim regardless of how they played it.

[debraran]

17 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Love this insight. 

Many people feel the loss of an identical twin (don't know if Kyle was supposed to be) but many times natural triplets are. Elvis was a famous person who always felt the loss of his twin and talked of it often as a "missing piece" that couldn't be filled.

That said, I know it's a show, but Kyle was expendable to the plot and given very little voice in scripts. As a mom of 3 including twins, I could never just bring home another baby and never mourn the one I lost. There wasn't a funeral or service they mentioned, ) a picture, something. It just seems odd to me even on a TV show. After 24 weeks the baby has to be cremated or buried. To have the hospital "dispose of it" just makes my stomach knot up but that's me. Maybe for others, it's easier.

Randall wasn't a replacement, Rebecca was right, she has room to love one more and the opportunity presented itself but it was more a "TV" plot albeit a good one.

Everyone knew about Kyle in the family, obviously neighbors too and i don't know the right age to tell them, but I hope they all didn't find out the way Randall did.

[GodsBeloved]

12 hours ago, debraran said:

Randall wasn't a replacement, Rebecca was right, she has room to love one more and the opportunity presented itself but it was more a "TV" plot albeit a good one.

I don't know if I ever thought this before but I do think Randall was a replacement. Had Kyle not died, would Jack and Rebecca have still taken Randall? I don't think so.

Maybe replacement isn't the perfect word but I think taking Randall was more about their loss than it was about giving Randall a home/family.

[debraran]

9 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

I don't know if I ever thought this before but I do think Randall was a replacement. Had Kyle not died, would Jack and Rebecca have still taken Randall? I don't think so.

Maybe replacement isn't the perfect word but I think taking Randall was more about their loss than it was about giving Randall a home/family.

Yes, in a real world, maybe 2-3 years later, if Jack heard about Randall in some scenario, I can see it, but having to have triplets to make it 3, no. Kyle was the third, and it's cute on TV, but after what Rebecca did with Randall's dad, not the nicest outcome. He had a nice life, full of love, but she cheated him too on his past and opportunity to learn about where he came from.  No one is perfect, but you had so suspend reality a bit there to make the plot work.

[ErinV]

Another thought:  Randall’s monologue about his glasses in the scene with the big 3 on the bench.  No one talks like that in real life!

[Anela]

On January 9, 2018 at 11:10 PM, MissL said:

I lost my father when I was 27 and it wasn't a quick shocking death it was a slow painful one. It's been 14 years.  I definitely have unresolved issues and things I wished we'd cleared up before he died and moments of my life I can't believe he's missed and there are days I can't talk about what happened and I still have bad dreams from his illness around the anniversary of his death. I have a growing group of friends who have also lost their dad and it's the same for them. I imagine for a 17 year old to lose a parent in whatever horrific way they lost Jack it doesn't matter how long it's been.  God 10 years later was hard enough. I don't see them paralyzed. They obviously had issues before he died that continued after, but it does inform your life and changes you for real. 

 

And yikes i shared too much but just want to say this seems very realistic to me. He was a big presence. 

Such a good episode. 

I share way too much at times. You didn't overshare. :) Losing a parent does change you. I have unresolved issues with my mum, who died eighteen months ago on the 24th. We had a great relationship for years, but there were major problems in the last few years, that I will never understand (and a few childhood things). We were slowly fixing things when she died. 

I was on Kevin's side this episode. I wanted just this sort of therapy session with my family, in recent years, but they wouldn't go. Trying to sort out things before they got worse. It's hard being the one that gets blamed for things, and being treated like a fuck-up, as they continue to contribute to you being one, or you get blamed for their shortcomings. 

[mostlylurking]

I’m just getting back into this show after only watching the first season when it aired. I feel really badly for Kevin. He was right. Kate had jack. Randall had Rebecca. Kevin was just kind of lost in the shuffle because no one thought he needed them. Well, he did need them. I found it very sad.