S07.E06: WHAT A RIDE

[CandysWrapRoom]

Just got a chance to watch and even though I had read about Sophia's behavior here, I was shocked at actually seeing it.  Something is very wrong with that poor child.  

[jacksgirl]

Late to the party. Have been a loyal viewer from first 16 and P, but now fast forward. Just one quick comment after reading all 200 plus.  Yes, Sofia is a strange cookie and is leading a different life than most 8 year olds. I remember my kids that age using baby talk or acting just weird when first meeting people or when they felt uncomfortable. My kids are now perfectly typical young adults. I'm a long time teacher and have seen kids clam up or crawl under class tables at times, even though they would be ok other times. I think Sofia has 2 strikes against her,  genetics and environment,  but I also think she may have more normal moments when not being filmed, at least I hope she does. 

Edited January 6, 2018 by jacksgirl

[Snarky McSnarky]

[ReadMeLattice]

On 1/6/2018 at 2:59 PM, jacksgirl said:

Late to the party. Have been a loyal viewer from first 16 and P, but now fast forward. Just one quick comment after reading all 200 plus.  Yes, Sofia is a strange cookie and is leading a different life than most 8 year olds. I remember my kids that age using baby talk or acting just weird when first meeting people or when they felt uncomfortable. My kids are now perfectly typical young adults. I'm a long time teacher and have seen kids clam up or crawl under class tables at times, even though they would be ok other times. I think Sofia has 2 strikes against her,  genetics and environment,  but I also think she may have more normal moments when not being filmed, at least I hope she does. 

That's true. She comes across as having some major social issues, but Cole also didn't stop speaking in baby talk on screen until like the last two episodes he was on (lol), so I've got to hope it's partly the cameras. 

[ChristmasJones]

It seems there are quite a few people here who were adopted... I'm not sure I've seen anyone post here who has given up a baby for adoption, though.  I had a friend who I met when she was in her early 60's. She gave up a baby when she was in her early 20's because back then, unmarried women were pressured to do that. It haunted her throughout her life. Through the internet, she was able to locate her daughter and the daughter was receptive. They gradually developed a good relationship.

I've never given away a child, so its really hard for me to know what that would be like. I know these forums are for snark, and I know Catelynn hasn't always exhibited the best behaviors, but I don't feel like I can judge her for her conflicted feelings about Carly. I've read that people say she shouldn't call her her daughter, or that she isn't Carly's mother... but if you gave birth to a child who now was being raised by someone else, what terms would you use? Do we really expect a person to refer to themselves as an "egg donor"? And what is an alternative term to "daughter" when referring to a female human you gave birth to?  Again, this is not directed at anyone in particular here. Its just something I wonder about.

Undoubtedly for everyone involved, MTV and the $$$$ that came with it have dramatically changed this whole situation in ways that none of the people involved ever imagined.  My wish for Cate would be that she would get some real counseling for her grief about giving Carly away, and then to focus on the fact that she did provide her daughter with a good home (hopefully- I mean we don't know), and use that to feel at peace with her decision. And then to channel the love she has into her relationship with the child she did keep. 

[ReadMeLattice]

1 hour ago, ChristmasJones said:

It seems there are quite a few people here who were adopted... I'm not sure I've seen anyone post here who has given up a baby for adoption, though.  I had a friend who I met when she was in her early 60's. She gave up a baby when she was in her early 20's because back then, unmarried women were pressured to do that. It haunted her throughout her life. Through the internet, she was able to locate her daughter and the daughter was receptive. They gradually developed a good relationship.

I've never given away a child, so its really hard for me to know what that would be like. I know these forums are for snark, and I know Catelynn hasn't always exhibited the best behaviors, but I don't feel like I can judge her for her conflicted feelings about Carly. I've read that people say she shouldn't call her her daughter, or that she isn't Carly's mother... but if you gave birth to a child who now was being raised by someone else, what terms would you use? Do we really expect a person to refer to themselves as an "egg donor"? And what is an alternative term to "daughter" when referring to a female human you gave birth to?  Again, this is not directed at anyone in particular here. Its just something I wonder about.

Undoubtedly for everyone involved, MTV and the $$$$ that came with it have dramatically changed this whole situation in ways that none of the people involved ever imagined.  My wish for Cate would be that she would get some real counseling for her grief about giving Carly away, and then to focus on the fact that she did provide her daughter with a good home (hopefully- I mean we don't know), and use that to feel at peace with her decision. And then to channel the love she has into her relationship with the child she did keep. 

I understand what you're saying. I think part of the issue for me is that she gave Carly up willingly and now continues to flout the boundaries set by her adoptive parents. The thing is, she COULD see Carly more if she wanted. She would have to follow the rules. She won't. She chose Tyler and fame over Carly, so I have a lot less sympathy than I otherwise might. 

That said...I honestly blame Tyler even more for the situation, maybe far more. Cate was in a more abusive situation than he was and was completely taken by him. And most of all I blame their parents. Butch for being absentee, violent, incarcerated, abusive. April for being an addict, neglectful, abusive. Cate's dad who I assume was absentee. Tyler's mom who provided no guidance. The way they treated them during the process was shameful and their abuse and neglect undoubtedly led to much of what transpired. 

And Tyler? I honestly don't think he's very sad about Carly at all.  I think Tyler loves Tyler. Period. 

[SPLAIN]

1 hour ago, ChristmasJones said:

It seems there are quite a few people here who were adopted... I'm not sure I've seen anyone post here who has given up a baby for adoption, though.  I had a friend who I met when she was in her early 60's. She gave up a baby when she was in her early 20's because back then, unmarried women were pressured to do that. It haunted her throughout her life. Through the internet, she was able to locate her daughter and the daughter was receptive. They gradually developed a good relationship.

I've never given away a child, so its really hard for me to know what that would be like. I know these forums are for snark, and I know Catelynn hasn't always exhibited the best behaviors, but I don't feel like I can judge her for her conflicted feelings about Carly. I've read that people say she shouldn't call her her daughter, or that she isn't Carly's mother... but if you gave birth to a child who now was being raised by someone else, what terms would you use? Do we really expect a person to refer to themselves as an "egg donor"? And what is an alternative term to "daughter" when referring to a female human you gave birth to?  Again, this is not directed at anyone in particular here. Its just something I wonder about.

Undoubtedly for everyone involved, MTV and the $$$$ that came with it have dramatically changed this whole situation in ways that none of the people involved ever imagined.  My wish for Cate would be that she would get some real counseling for her grief about giving Carly away, and then to focus on the fact that she did provide her daughter with a good home (hopefully- I mean we don't know), and use that to feel at peace with her decision. And then to channel the love she has into her relationship with the child she did keep. 

Bolded part: Was egg donor implied?

First off, Catelynn should stop referring to Carly and Nova as sisters IMO because that is a relationship that needs to be established between those two, no one else. Carly shouldn't feel as if the relationship has been thrusted upon her or forced. She may feel she would have to retain the relationship for the sake of Nova and C&T and that is too much for a child to bear.

Definitely, C&T should stop referring to themselves as Carly's parents because they are not. By doing so they are implying B&T's relationship to Carly is artificial and unnatural. It is also saying to Carly she is not the child of B&T who are the permanent parents with all the social, legal rights and responsibilities incumbent upon any parent. C&T's constant references at how B&T should be groveling at their feet for their gift of a child comes off as if B&T were awarded a material item, there is a value placed on Carly as if she is chattel. It is demeaning to Carly, Brandon, and Theresa.

I think Brandon and Theresa are comfortable with bio parents.

As for how this affects Catelynn and her conflicted feelings, as @Lm2162 mentioned, a part of that was Tyler's doing and continues to this day. Catelynn has made things harder for herself because she is the one who can't refrain from the boundaries that were set forth. It is not B&T's problem that Cate has issues with this adoption. At some point Cate needs to take ownership of her issues and stop running to her bong. She has more money at her disposal than five people put together who work at 9-5 jobs. She keeps running to rehab and comes out of there doing the same shit over and over. It is an unhealthy pattern. Either she needs to acknowledge her behavior or her spouse needs to do an intervention, but I know they won't.

 

Quote

And what is an alternative term to "daughter" when referring to a female human you gave birth to?

When speaking to B&T, the legal parents? Your daughter. That is how she should be referred. 

As an adopted child, I am my parents' daughter. I am not a daughter to the people who relinquished me at birth.

Edited January 8, 2018 by SPLAIN

[ChristmasJones]

I am not really focusing on Cate's behaviors - for me its more about the feelings underneath the behaviors.  I have empathy for those, and really don't know what it would be like to have given birth and then not raise that child.  So I'm not defending her actions. Its obvious that she's grown up in an environment where she never learned healthy and functional ways of dealing with emotions. Like most abusive/dysfunctional families, you can trace these patterns back generations.

We all wish that Tyler and Cate has been able to rise above what they grew up with- but..... like many people... they haven't.

All that aside, I won't fault her for her feelings of loss about the adoption. My friend was still struggling with it 40 years later.. and she was someone who was educated and high-functioning throughout her life.

MTV is also in the mix making them talk about it all the time, so that plays a huge role in how this looks.

[ReadMeLattice]

3 minutes ago, SPLAIN said:

C&T's constant references at how B&T should be groveling at their feet for their gift of a child comes off as if B&T were awarded a material item, there is a value placed on Carly as if she is chattel. It is demeaning to Carly, Brandon, and Theresa.

Yes, that is a big part of it too. Carly is a human being. She is not a "gift." The demands that B&T be grateful make it seem that they, & especially Tyler (ok I seriously really hate him, sorry, I think my bias is showing) care more about their own egos than about Carly. 

[SPLAIN]

6 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

Yes, that is a big part of it too. Carly is a human being. She is not a "gift." The demands that B&T be grateful make it seem that they, & especially Tyler (ok I seriously really hate him, sorry, I think my bias is showing) care more about their own egos than about Carly. 

I loathe him. It is not bias at all. It is the damn truth. He expects people to worship him for his gift of sperm having penetrated Catelynn's egg when they were two stupid, ignorant, horny teenagers. People make babies every damn day. It takes love and work to be a parent. C&T can't even be parents to Nova. They are too busy fantasizing about what should have been.

Catelynn needs mental help to get her focused on herself and Nova. I think she has been dealing with something far deeper than this adoption. It goes back to when she was growing up in a hovel with abusive and drug-addicted adults. I think she resents them for not having had the ideal home life so that she could have kept Carly. She also sees the rest of the losers on this show who kept their children and are now living it up while pulling in six figures. There is so much that needs to be weeded out [no pun intended] and dealt with. Cate has the money to get proper help.

Edited January 8, 2018 by SPLAIN

[ReadMeLattice]

I understand feeling empathy for the loss. I guess what I don't get is how much loss they can truly be feeling if all they have to do is follow a few simple rules to see her more and they won't. It's not like B&T are asking them to demean themselves. They are just asking for basic decency and to keep Carly off social media. If they are truly heartbroken I guess I just don't get why they don't do those things...

[SPLAIN]

16 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

I understand feeling empathy for the loss. I guess what I don't get is how much loss they can truly be feeling if all they have to do is follow a few simple rules to see her more and they won't. It's not like B&T are asking them to demean themselves. They are just asking for basic decency and to keep Carly off social media. If they are truly heartbroken I guess I just don't get why they don't do those things...

Agree. If they had followed the boundaries, I could see B&T possibly allowing a longer stretch of visitation and maybe having that beach day that Cate was asking for in the most recent episode. Instead, they have been dealing with C&T's bullshit and because of that, they pulled back. Consequences!

I can also feel empathy for Cate's loss, but when she chooses not to do anything about it, my sympathy stops. My sympathy goes to Brandon and Theresa who are Carly's parents and they are being made to be a couple of villains who stole this baby from the trailer trash couple and they are not giving her back.

Quote

I am not really focusing on Cate's behaviors

I do focus on Cate's behaviors because it impacts B&T and Carly. Cate and Tyler have provoked their fans with their tweets when they imply B&T are not being fair to them and how Carly is their daughter. C&T bring the fans into their personal issues and allow them to tweet such horrible and disgusting things about B&T. Rarely does Tyler ever tweet back and correct those idiots. I don't think Cate has ever put a stop to the nonsense. In fact, she puts gasoline on the flames. They use this show to slam B&T left and right. That is not right. Her questionable behavior also affects Nova, the forgotten child.

Edited January 8, 2018 by SPLAIN

[leighroda]

Once upon a time I did feel for Cate, even now I’m not saying it isn’t hard, but her and Tyler have done absolutely nothing to attempt to help the situation. This isn’t even the first time this whole debacle has come up, they were asked not to talk about it publically, what do they do? Talk about it.  They come to the wedding with one condition, butch stays away... butch walks right up to Carly (although I guess that’s technically not C&T’s fault, but from what I can recall even once it happened they weren’t too bothered by it, but I’m willing to concede this point). 

I can give them both that this is a hard situation, and when they were 16 they didn’t realize how hard an open adoption would be... but now that they’ve been in this place for almost 10 years they need to get it together and figure out what is best for Carly.  I don’t think closing the adoption is a realistic thing, but if it is truly this hard for Cate to handle, its kinda like a break up, maybe they would all be better off if it were closed, and C&T could let go... it would be hard as hell, for sure... but is holding out that she (Carly) is going to come back to them someday much better?

[Caracoa1]

Cate and Tyler were chosen for the show because they were opting to give their baby up for adoption....Given the choice...would they keep Carly and live in poverty or give her up and live their current life of Fame and money in the bank?  There is no guarantee that MTV would have chosen them for teen mom had they kept Carly....they wanted a couple giving up a child for adoption.

[ReadMeLattice]

20 minutes ago, Caracoa1 said:

Cate and Tyler were chosen for the show because they were opting to give their baby up for adoption....Given the choice...would they keep Carly and live in poverty or give her up and live their current life of Fame and money in the bank?  There is no guarantee that MTV would have chosen them for teen mom had they kept Carly....they wanted a couple giving up a child for adoption.

That's a good point. Would they choose Carly if the option was no social media, no reality TV and no clothing line? Just normal jobs in their area of Michigan? 

Honestly...Catelynn *might,* but I strongly doubt it. Tyler would not. 

[Scarlett45]

6 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

I understand feeling empathy for the loss. I guess what I don't get is how much loss they can truly be feeling if all they have to do is follow a few simple rules to see her more and they won't. It's not like B&T are asking them to demean themselves. They are just asking for basic decency and to keep Carly off social media. If they are truly heartbroken I guess I just don't get why they don't do those things...

Exactly!

 

6 hours ago, SPLAIN said:

Agree. If they had followed the boundaries, I could see B&T possibly allowing a longer stretch of visitation and maybe having that beach day that Cate was asking for in the most recent episode. Instead, they have been dealing with C&T's bullshit and because of that, they pulled back. Consequences!

I can also feel empathy for Cate's loss, but when she chooses not to do anything about it, my sympathy stops. My sympathy goes to Brandon and Theresa who are Carly's parents and they are being made to be a couple of villains who stole this baby from the trailer trash couple and they are not giving her back.

I do focus on Cate's behaviors because it impacts B&T and Carly. Cate and Tyler have provoked their fans with their tweets when they imply B&T are not being fair to them and how Carly is their daughter. C&T bring the fans into their personal issues and allow them to tweet such horrible and disgusting things about B&T. Rarely does Tyler ever tweet back and correct those idiots. I don't think Cate has ever put a stop to the nonsense. In fact, she puts gasoline on the flames. They use this show to slam B&T left and right. That is not right. Her questionable behavior also affects Nova, the forgotten child.

I feel sympathy for Cate’s loss as well, but she’s had YEARS to follow B&T’s requests. I’m not suggesting that the years mean her feelings of loss will go away, but as @Lm2162 pointed out, if their primary objective was to keep a relationship with Carly they would have no problem following instructions. I think Cate would be more amenable to that if Tyler weren’t around, but she’s an autonomous being responsible for her own choices. 

Cate is so busy mourning the loss of Carly she isn’t parenting Nova- and that’s not right. Cate has every right to be angry that she had to place Carly etc, but when that anger evolves into actions that affect B&T, Carly’s parents, that’s not right. 

[ReadMeLattice]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Cate is so busy mourning the loss of Carly she isn’t parenting Nova- and that’s not right. Cate has every right to be angry that she had to place Carly etc, but when that anger evolves into actions that affect B&T, Carly’s parents, that’s not right. 

I know it might be hard, but if she is going to be angry, she should be blaming April and Butch for her having to place Carly, not the couple willing to adopt her. Confront them about the abuse, cut them out or push them to go to therapy. Hold them accountable. Instead, she &Tyler allow them to watch Nova. 

B&T are an easy target for her years of pain. The problem is, while her pain is justified, there are two children involved. She's not just publicly humiliating B&T, she's now doing it to Carly's parents. And poor Nova is there too and needs her mom and dad. Like I said, if I was Cate I'd be angry too...but B&T would be about the last recipients of my wrath. A lot of people failed Cate. Her dad, her mom, Butch, Tyler, maybe even the school system, CPS and Bethany. B&T did nothing wrong. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Lm2162

[Scarlett45]

4 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

I know it might be hard, but if she is going to be angry, she should be blaming April and Butch for her having to place Carly, not the couple willing to adopt her. Confront them about the abuse, cut them out or push them to go to therapy. Hold them accountable. Instead, she &Tyler allow them to watch Nova. 

B&T are an easy target for her years of pain. The problem is, while her pain is justified, there are two children involved. She's not just publicly humiliating B&T, she's now doing it to Carly's parents. And poor Nova is there too and needs her mom and dad. Like I said, if I was Cate I'd be angry too...but B&T would be about the last recipients of my wrath. A lot of people failed Cate. Her dad, her mom, Butch, Tyler, maybe even the school system, CPS and Bethany. B&T did nothing wrong. 

Absolutely! 

Anger at April, Butch, her absentee Dad- all justified. But B&T are easy targets because they aren’t there in her daily life and she doesn’t have years of disappointment wrapped up in them. 

[ReadMeLattice]

9 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Absolutely! 

Anger at April, Butch, her absentee Dad- all justified. But B&T are easy targets because they aren’t there in her daily life and she doesn’t have years of disappointment wrapped up in them. 

Right. And because I'm sure it's easy to be jealous of them. A natural feeling. But those issues need to be worked out privately.

The thing is, she's shooting herself in the foot so hard by going along with Tyler's "they are so jealous of us for being fertile" narrative. Back when C&T and B&T went to a kind of counseling session/ mediation on that one episode, Theresa said something about being worried that C&T might develop a bond with Carly if they saw her too often and that that made her feel vulnerable as an adoptive mom. I saw that as a genuine moment of her trying to reach out and say "this is hard for all of us and full of complex feelings, so even though I don't agree with what you're doing, I get it and let's work on it." Instead, what do they do? Rub it in her face. Make it clear they don't think B&T deserve parental respect or rights. They have been given so many more chances than they deserve or earned. B&T are clearly willing to be accommodating. C&T push them to their limit consistently. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Lm2162

[ReadMeLattice]

8 hours ago, ChristmasJones said:

 

I've never given away a child, so its really hard for me to know what that would be like. I know these forums are for snark, and I know Catelynn hasn't always exhibited the best behaviors, but I don't feel like I can judge her for her conflicted feelings about Carly. I've read that people say she shouldn't call her her daughter, or that she isn't Carly's mother... but if you gave birth to a child who now was being raised by someone else, what terms would you use? Do we really expect a person to refer to themselves as an "egg donor"? And what is an alternative term to "daughter" when referring to a female human you gave birth to?  Again, this is not directed at anyone in particular here. Its just something I wonder about.

Just wanted to clarify something...I agree that probably many bio parents say "daughter" or "son" to each other in private. I *think* that people here mean when C&T post on Twitter, Instagram, etc, or talk on TV about their "daughter" and openly imply that they think they are her real parents and B&T aren't. I always thought it was less about the wording and more about the "nyah nyah nyah, you couldn't get pregnant, you're not even real parents like WE are" tone of their statements. 

[MissMel]

The thing is, Tyler never had any intentions of being a parent to Carly whatsoever.  Cate had the option of placing Carly or keeping her.  Either way, Tyler was out as a parenting partner.  That's where my issue starts with him and his "gift giving" crap.  Disgusting little dweeb.

[Scarlett45]

10 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

Just wanted to clarify something...I agree that probably many bio parents say "daughter" or "son" to each other in private. I *think* that people here mean when C&T post on Twitter, Instagram, etc, or talk on TV about their "daughter" and openly imply that they think they are her real parents and B&T aren't. I always thought it was less about the wording and more about the "nyah nyah nyah, you couldn't get pregnant, you're not even real parents like WE are" tone of their statements. 

Yes, also, given the nature of the English language, “biological daughter” is the most accurate term, while not trapesing over B&T as Carly’s parents. I find it (speaking of language here) analogous to when people say “step-daughter/step-son”, they are acknowledging their relationship to the child without over stepping or disregarding status of the actual parents (legal, social, emotional etc). 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Scarlett45

[Brooklynista]

3 hours ago, MissMel said:

The thing is, Tyler never had any intentions of being a parent to Carly whatsoever.  Cate had the option of placing Carly or keeping her.  Either way, Tyler was out as a parenting partner.  That's where my issue starts with him and his "gift giving" crap.  Disgusting little dweeb.

Exactamundo.  Tyler always had plans on getting rid of Carly followed closely by a dumping of Catelynn.

[Claire85]

I think that Cate will never start to heal unless she cuts April out of her life completely. Don’t be angry at B&T, be angry at your drunken, vicious mom who helped put you in this situation. April was on one TM reunion and when Drew asked her if she had anything to apologize for, she shrugged and said no. I wanted to go right through the TV and punch her. 

[TeenMomAngerMgmt]

25 minutes ago, Claire85 said:

I think that Cate will never start to heal unless she cuts April out of her life completely. Don’t be angry at B&T, be angry at your drunken, vicious mom who helped put you in this situation. April was on one TM reunion and when Drew asked her if she had anything to apologize for, she shrugged and said no. I wanted to go right through the TV and punch her. 

Yeah, the only maternal figure Cate had was Kim. And Kim was flawed, but she stepped up to the plate at that moment to try to help her. Adoption was 100% the right call. Tyler did not want to be a father. Cate did not have any resources to be a mother. April and Butch would have just used her and Carly for government subsidies. Carly would be worse off than Nova is now. 

[ChristmasJones]

I guess I just can't be angry at these two -- I see them both as  uneducated, ignorant, and still deeply entrenched in the dysfunction they grew up in. And their actions are reflective of that. They would require proper, long-term counseling by a competent therapist to reach all the insights folks are suggesting here on this thread (such as directing anger toward their parents rather than B&T).

None of the folks on this show have risen very high above their upbringings. And I don't think that is really so different than the rest of the world.  They are still in their early-to-mid-20's.  It is usually the late 20's and older when people reach the point that they can truly reflect on their childhoods and how it affected them.  And many people are much older when they realize those sorts of insights.

Additionally, there are two components to rising above a dysfunctional childhood - the first is having the insights about what was wrong and how you were affected,  and then second is the ability to make changes in one's behavior.  Many people have insights long before they can sustain long-term behavior changes.  I view C&T as being at the stage where they don't even have the insights yet.  And if you don't have the insight, then you are not going to even begin to make the behavior changes.

Edited January 8, 2018 by ChristmasJones

[Rebecca]

On 1/1/2018 at 11:17 PM, guilfoyleatpp said:

He is so over her shit. Complains and cries and DEMANDS SYMPATHY for her shitty choices that make her depressed and unable to see her child. Meanwhile, he has Leah 99% of the time and SHE OWES HIM MONEY. 

JFC, Amber. If she had the tiniest amount of self awareness, she would be so emembarrassed at asking for sympathy. 

Imagine if Gary was like, yeah Kristina and I are way depressed, you totally have to do everything for Leah...for like the next 3 months. K, bye. We all know that would never happen because they are real parents. It’s kind of like Ryan - he has no respect for the fact Maci has raised his kid without him as a father and thinks it’s all just fine because someone is taking care of said kid, even if it’s not him. I just don’t understand how Amber thinks parenting is a “when you feel like it” thing.

On 1/2/2018 at 0:34 AM, eskimo said:

One place Carly should NEVER be is alone with C&T. 

I honestly think it’s entirely possible that they would say some dumb, harmful shit in her presence. I just knew they were going to call Carly some variation of “sister” to Nova but when it happened I was still like, really?! As if she can possible understand the concept of “birth sister” at her age. Why the hell would you do that? Just call her Carly and that’s enough at this point.  They’d say the same type of stuff to Carly if they had her alone.

On 1/2/2018 at 7:46 AM, teapot said:

Do B & T allow pics of Carly to be shared and/or sold??? she's so pretty!

How can you tell? I just saw the back of her head. Which I thought was COMPLETELY unnecessary for us to see. I don’t need to see picture of all of their backs and weird cropping. Their total privacy is just fine with me!

On 1/2/2018 at 6:31 PM, CofCinci said:

They don’t consider B&T to be parents — only play parents. Not ‘real’ parents. In their warped minds, B&T are Carly’s guardians and the child will be handed over to C&T on 05/18/2027.  They probably have a reminder set.

This. And I think they’ll be in a for a shock when Carly isn’t so keen on their inappropriate boundaries.

On 1/2/2018 at 8:39 PM, alexa said:

Though I think Sophia was acting odd I do think she sincerely dislikes David on her own based on what she has seen when with him. Though Farrah is an influence kids can understand creepy pretty quickly. So I think it also makes her uncomfortable around her grandma who was already weird to begin with. I think the distance from her and the time spent with Michael has made Deb even more uncomfortable to be around (since he is somewhat normal and doesn’t talk to her like she is 3). 

I agree. Debra really, really needs to quit with the baby voice to Sophia...about 8 years ago. Isn’t she 9?! Also, Farrah starts taking to Sophia like a baby somewhat too when Debra does it.

On 1/3/2018 at 0:27 AM, guilfoyleatpp said:

They also, SO WEIRDLY, have zero empathy for Brandon and Teresa.  We never hear them ponder about how b&t might have approached some sort of kid behavior without knowing xxx about Carly, especially since they now have Nova. They don't ever seem to consider how their words and behavior might appear to b&t, even though they've felt repercussions for saying or doing certain things. It's so odd that they're 100% focused on how they feel without ever seeming to even realize that people other than CARLY are directly impacted by their actions. What is that? Narcissism? 

I think it’s, in part, due to their childhoods. We see the lack of empathy in Butch and April and it was even more obvious on 16 + P and the earlier seasons of Teen Mom. Even Kim seems pretty short on empathy and she’s the most normal person they have. They’re a self centered bunch. Also, undeserved “stardom” at a young age has ramped up the narcissism that already existed, especially in Tyler. 

On 1/3/2018 at 2:39 PM, Pepper Mostly said:

If either Sophia or Nova sticks one toe into any college in the USA I will cheerfully eat a Chevrolet. You can choose the make/model. Not that they won't get flak from mean and ignorant people, but I think that the chances of either of these kids pursuing higher education are vanishingly small! Sophia will probably emancipate herself at 16. Nova--well, if she doesn't follow in her mother's footsteps and end up knocked up as a teen, I'll be very, very surprised. (And the worst thing? This stupid show will still be on! And we'll all still be here!(

This!!!! I’m an asshole but I chortled when people were all, when Sophia and Nova are in college.... That “ain’t” gonna happen, especially for Nova. Look at Catelynn and Tyler. If Sophia is, in fact, neurotypical (and I think she probably is) I guess it’s possible she’d go but since she’s being homeschooled and put in the entertainment industry I’m doubting it. The Abrahams do seem to value education, though. 

On 1/3/2018 at 6:31 PM, Lm2162 said:

Maybe so. I've certainly personally known some (legal) mentally healthy sex workers during grad school, but I would assume (as you do) that many more are not healthy. Many more people do it than people realize. Since the majority of both men and women have watched porn, and most men in particular do so regularly, though, I think it's a much larger problem than the sex workers themselves. If there was not such a massive demand, people wouldn't do it at all. Maybe the problem is more that our society is addicted to porn. I do hate that the workers get blamed and pitied while the watchers/buyers get to just "fit in" with society and aren't considered "mentally ill" for what THEY do. Maybe it's a systemic problem that feeds on everybody's insecurities. I also wonder about male porn stars and if they aren't shamed as much or if some of them have been abused too. I truly don't know. An interesting question.

This. It’s painting with way too broad of a brush to say that ALL are messed up/forced into it. I’ve spent some time with many (not like that - for undergrad research) and there are very intelligent, “together” people in the industry. It’s not the majority but they exist. 

On 1/3/2018 at 8:33 PM, Scarlett45 said:

That’s one of the things that REALLY irks me when people criticize Farrah’s career in the adult industry (the name calling etc), it’s usually from straight men, who I’d bet dollars to donuts have consumed the same type of media on a REGULAR basis, but the actors (male and female- but especially female) that create the content are xyz (insert pejorative here). This notion that certain types of women (because straight porn is mostly designed for men), are there for sexual fulfillment, but how dare she earn a living or be given basic human respect for filling a role YOUR desire created. 

Of course I would never want anyone to be sexually abused or forced into sex work. I also think it’s really sucky that it’s more lucrative to work in the sex industry than work a low skill job in retail/fast food service. I think it’s awful people have to make choices like this to put food on the table for their loved ones, but I am not going to tell a mentally competent adult how to feel about their job when I have never done it. Of all of Farrah’s choices her participation in pornography and line of sex toys bother me the least. 

Exactly.

On 1/5/2018 at 6:49 PM, SimonSeymour said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

@MAMADRAMA. I just watched the video. Very cool! My name is also Rebecca. ?

 

eta: Sorry, I can’t figure out how to delete the spoiler box. 

•   Reveal hidden contents

  •  

Hey Rebeccas!!!! Obviously that’s my name too.

52 minutes ago, Claire85 said:

I think that Cate will never start to heal unless she cuts April out of her life completely. Don’t be angry at B&T, be angry at your drunken, vicious mom who helped put you in this situation. April was on one TM reunion and when Drew asked her if she had anything to apologize for, she shrugged and said no. I wanted to go right through the TV and punch her. 

I really hate April. (And Butch.) I’m not sure why Catelynn keeps her in her life. I know, childcare, but there’s obviously more to it than that. She’s been almost worthless as a mother to Catelynn.

15 minutes ago, ChristmasJones said:

None of the folks on this show have risen very high above their upbringings. And I don't think that is really so different than the rest of the world.  They are still in their early-to-mid-20's.  It is usually the late 20's and older when people reach the point that they can truly reflect on their childhoods and how it affected them.  And many people are much older when they realize those sorts of insights.

Catelynn and Tyler are both about to turn 26. No early 20s here. They’ve been wasting the last 10 years of their lives since we’ve “known” them. When does their own accountability start?

I think Ryan “took a Xanax again” when he and Mackenzie went off screen before their “engagement” pictures.  Speaking of? Engagement photos when you’re ALREADY MARRIED is the thirstiest move. Mackenzie is the worst.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Rebecca

[GreatKazu]

6 hours ago, ChristmasJones said:

Additionally, there are two components to rising above a dysfunctional childhood - the first is having the insights about what was wrong and how you were affected,  and then second is the ability to make changes in one's behavior.  Many people have insights long before they can sustain long-term behavior changes.  I view C&T as being at the stage where they don't even have the insights yet.  And if you don't have the insight, then you are not going to even begin to make the behavior changes.

Apparently, C&T thought enough of how their upbringing was so wrong and how it did affect them that they got into screaming matches with Butch and April about the toxicity of their home life. Hearing Cate yell at Butch that one of the reasons she had to give up Carly was because of what was currently happening in the household. She had the insight, at least for that period of time, to see the dysfunction and abuse that existed in her environment. There is of course the whole Tyler issue as well which played a part in her decision, but I did get a sense that Cate had those insights.

I am in agreement with you about your statement about having the ability to make changes. One has to want to make changes in order for change to begin. What I believe has happened, as has been pointed out more than once, is the fact C&T believe having money is a sign of success. The ability to purchase five cars, an RV, two homes, the ability to splurge on family and themselves, somehow makes them successful. They don't have to do anything else. It is okay to continue to smoke weed as it is a "natural alternative" to prescription medication. Cate can party it up and go to Boogie Town with April because it is only weed. Cate and Tyler aren't abusing drugs and alcohol like April and Butch are doing. There isn't any DV happening in their relationship, even though I do think there are other issues in their marriage that are not at all healthy. In their minds, as long as they are not like Butch and April, they are in a healthy place, with money to boot. There is no need for change. This is why I wish this show would cease to exist. Just like B&T need to stop the visits, MTV needs to cut the cord with these people. 

Edited January 9, 2018 by GreatKazu

[GreatKazu]

6 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes, also, given the nature of the English language, “biological daughter” is the most accurate term, while not trapesing over B&T as Carly’s parents. I find it (speaking of language here) analogous to when people say “step-daughter/step-son”, they are acknowledging their relationship to the child without over stepping or disregarding status of the actual parents (legal, social, emotional etc). 

C&T forget that child has a name - Carly.  They could easily refer to her as Carly just like they call that child they forgot they had who picks up turds, Nova. I think if they made it a habit of referring to B&T's daughter as "Carly" to each other in private, it would become the norm for them anytime they refer to her in any other situation such as in interviews, on the show, and even on social media. It's too late now, but that is how I think they should have been doing it all these years. 

Even the fucking parents (Kim, April, Butch) have referred to Carly as their grandchild. She is NOT their grandchild, for fuck's sake. Don't these people get it? They had no hand in raising that child. They were not legally responsible for her all these years. They weren't the ones who tended to that little girl all through her life. These people really are making my blood boil just thinking about how they feel so damn entitled to a child that just happens to share their blood and DNA. 

[Tatum]

1 minute ago, GreatKazu said:

C&T forget that child has a name - Carly.  They could easily refer to her as Carly just like they call that child they forgot they had who picks up turds, Nova. I think if they made it a habit of referring to B&T's daughter as "Carly" to each other in private, it would become the norm for them anytime they refer to her in any other situation such as in interviews, on the show, and even on social media. It's too late now, but that is how I think they should have been doing it all these years. 

Even the fucking parents (Kim, April, Butch) have referred to Carly as their grandchild. She is NOT their grandchild, for fuck's sake. Don't these people get it? They had no hand in raising that child. They were not legally responsible for her all these years. They weren't the ones who tended to that little girl all through her life. These people really are making my blood boil just thinking about how they feel so damn entitled to a child that just happens to share their blood and DNA. 

Particularly considering the number of relations that also share their blood and DNA, that they have been legally responsible for all these years, that they've friggin ignored all this time.

 

Bemoaning the loss of their golden grandchild (when they ALL fucking have legal grandchildren) is merely a way to stay relevant on a cable TV show. I feel very sorry for Tyler's sister who has to watch her dad on TV moan about missing Carly when he has no relationship with her or her kids, by his own choice. When Nova watches this when she gets older, she might wonder why her parents and grandparents were so depressed over the loss of their biological first child yet could never manage to dress her or brush her hair or spend any time with her beyond the daily selfie, in which they probably spend 20 min arranging the shot, and then are done with her for the day.

[lgprimes]

This show had done SO much to set back the adoption “industry”. 

It’s a shame.

[Rebecca]

What about Nick? He was a young child when Carly was born and has (imo) been neglected his whole life by his mother. I guess, since we don’t see him, maybe he’s got a great, loving relationship with April now where she actually is a mother to him but based on his earlier childhood that we did see, I very much doubt it. If I recall correctly he was living with Catelynn and Tyler for awhile and they wanted to adopt him or something. Did they ever have any actual custody? Butch appeared to be the closest thing Nick ever thought of as a father, I wonder if they’ve maintained a relationship? Honestly and sadly, I won’t be surprised to hear Nick end up in juvie/jail himself soon enough. He must be 11-12 at this point.

They can fuck off because they would’ve just ignored and caused dysfuction in another kid’s life if Carly hadn't been placed.

Edited January 9, 2018 by Rebecca

[CaliforniaLove]

You know, even referring to Carly as their daughter isn't nearly as offensive to me as the "my kid" thing. 

[Rebecca]

I can’t watch the new episode because the site where I watch uploads hasn’t gotten to this show yet, which shows how popular it isn’t. Vanderpump Rules was added about 20 minutes after it finished airing. 

Anyway, I rewatched this dreck episode and Maci has a Teen Mom pillow on her couch. Huh. Catelynn, it’s reciprocated not “resipicated” thanks. 

Amber is the biggest loser.

Edited January 9, 2018 by Rebecca

[druzy]

58 minutes ago, Rebecca said:

I can’t watch the new episode because the site where I watch uploads hasn’t gotten to this show yet, which shows how popular it isn’t. Vanderpump Rules was added about 20 minutes after it finished airing. 

Anyway, I rewatched this dreck episode and Maci has a Teen Mom pillow on her couch. Huh. Catelynn, it’s reciprocated not “resipicated” thanks. 

Amber is the biggest loser.

I saw that pillow too.

This episode was boring. Farrah and Sophia walked in a fashion show. New Matt arrived at Gary's house in yellow pants. Amber thought that Gary wanted to meet New Matt so New Matt stepped out of Amber's Leased Range Rover and was awkwardly introduced to the family. Upon departure of said meeting New Matt opened the passenger door for not depressed Amber and Kristina remarked to Gary "You should pay attention to that". That should have not been in quotes but basically that is what Kristina said. Gary said that will last 2 weeks. Was Gary referring to the relationship or New Matt opening the passenger door? That was the cliffhanger of this episode.  

[GreatKazu]

Quote

not depressed Amber

Awesome. I think this would be a great title for Amber's thread. 

Quote

Gary said that will last 2 weeks. Was Gary referring to the relationship or New Matt opening the passenger door?

The Range Rover. 

Edited January 9, 2018 by GreatKazu

[Scarlett45]

8 hours ago, Rebecca said:

What about Nick? He was a young child when Carly was born and has (imo) been neglected his whole life by his mother. I guess, since we don’t see him, maybe he’s got a great, loving relationship with April now where she actually is a mother to him but based on his earlier childhood that we did see, I very much doubt it. If I recall correctly he was living with Catelynn and Tyler for awhile and they wanted to adopt him or something. Did they ever have any actual custody? Butch appeared to be the closest thing Nick ever thought of as a father, I wonder if they’ve maintained a relationship? Honestly and sadly, I won’t be surprised to hear Nick end up in juvie/jail himself soon enough. He must be 11-12 at this point.

They can fuck off because they would’ve just ignored and caused dysfuction in another kid’s life if Carly hadn't been placed.

When Nick was a baby/young child Catelynn was his primary caretaker. Right after Carly was born and April was on THAT druggie binge  Nick’s bio Dad came and got him (this is when Catelynn was living with Tyler and Kim, so yeah it was a bad time). After that Nick lived with Catelynn and Tyler for a while and then Catelynn when Tyler was in NOLA. Seems after he got old enough to be a caretaker April wanted him back. If Carly will be 9 this year ( Leah and Bentley are already 9, born at the end of 2008), Nick is 12-13 years old this year. 

Edited January 9, 2018 by Scarlett45

[Cabarb]

Can somebody remind me of the age difference between Gary and Amber? If I remember correctly, he’s quite a bit older which makes sense because I totally got a parent-child vibe from that conversation there at the end of the episode.  Given what we know of Gary now, it’s hard to remember that way back love-sick Gary who followed Amber around everywhere and proposed with a Wal Mart ring. He has grown and matured into an actual adult while Amber regresses a little more every day. I’m so worried for this new little baby.

[ghoulina]

Gary is 4 years older than Amber. 

 

But I get a parent-child vibe with her and just about everyone. She has never grown up. She also has consistently sought out much older guys. She's 27 and Matt is at least mid-40s, right? How old is NewMatt. 

[guilfoyleatpp]

14 hours ago, druzy said:

I saw that pillow too.

This episode was boring. Farrah and Sophia walked in a fashion show. New Matt arrived at Gary's house in yellow pants. Amber thought that Gary wanted to meet New Matt so New Matt stepped out of Amber's Leased Range Rover and was awkwardly introduced to the family. Upon departure of said meeting New Matt opened the passenger door for not depressed Amber and Kristina remarked to Gary "You should pay attention to that". That should have not been in quotes but basically that is what Kristina said. Gary said that will last 2 weeks. Was Gary referring to the relationship or New Matt opening the passenger door? That was the cliffhanger of this episode.  

I thought he was talking about the relationship. Mr. Guilfoyle was certain they were talking about opening the car door.

Here's the thing...no guy who gets involved with Amber is in a good space, emotionally. No one who "comes for a visit" to a place thousands of miles away and then stays for an undetermined amount of time is in a good place emotionally, financially or careerwise. He's a mess. She's a mess. That's what they have in common. That's what she has in common with all her boyfriends. They all make shitty decisions.

[teapot]

27 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

Gary is 4 years older than Amber. 

 

But I get a parent-child vibe with her and just about everyone. She has never grown up. She also has consistently sought out much older guys. She's 27 and Matt is at least mid-40s, right? How old is NewMatt. 

He's 33

http://www.eonline.com/news/874540/meet-amber-portwood-s-new-boyfriend-5-things-to-know-about-andrew-glennon

 

I'm thinking, my boy-child's almost 27.  his GF is six months older (and she loves to tease him about it!  LOL)

I know it's totally different for a young guy/older woman (Mariah/Tanaka, for example)....I wouldn't blink an eye if he brought home a 33-year old.  If he started dating a 40+ woman, that would give me pause...just because he's beginning his life and I would (hope!) that she was established in hers.  And, if she weren't, not to judge or anything, but I don't know what kind of head-space she'd be in, or if it would be a healthy relationship.

I don't even *know* how these rules all change when it's a younger woman, though.  My mister is four & a half years older than me.  That was kind of a *thing* when I was seventeen ("hey guys!  my boyfriend can buy!") but of course now as I approach 50 (!)  it's nothing at all.

[nr65000]

On 1/4/2018 at 5:27 PM, SimonSeymour said:

 

On 1/3/2018 at 10:55 PM, SPLAIN said:

As an adopted child I have no cares whatsoever to ever meet or know anything more about my bio parents. I have pointed this out numerous times throughout the seasons. I know how I feel and I also know how I feel doesn't represent how other adopted children feel, but I truly feel there are more adopted children who feel like I do. I feel shows such as Dr. Phil, 20/20, and this mess on MTV concerning C&T tends to put a negative spotlight on adoption, open adoption, and how adopted children tend to have negative feelings about themselves and their adopted parents. 

A lot of people (not you personally) assume adopted children have this desire to know about their heritage, their bio family, and that they suffer somehow from being an adopted child. I can't express how many times I have been asked by people if I ever want to search my "real" family.  The people who gave me up are not my family. The people who raised me, cared for me, and loved me are my family. My family had imperfections just like many other families. I feel sometimes adopted children who come from troubled families tend to seek out their birth parents hoping to find whatever happiness they feel they are not receiving from their home environment. Of course, there are other adopted children who are just curious and want to know about their family blood line.

I certainly cannot compare my experience as an adopted child to C&T's case because I never was part of an open adoption. However, my adoption was never legally finalized. My birth mother could have easily come around at any time and claimed me, especially since her name is on my birth certificate. I knew this since I was 9 years old.

I do think this particular case is touchy for all involved, mainly Carly. I wish B&T would reduce visits or cease visitation altogether. They could do so without commenting negatively about C&T to Carly. When Carly is of adult age, she can decide if she wants to resume any sort of relationship with C&T.  If there isn't a therapist involved, I think it would help greatly if B&T would acquire one to assist Carly.  A dose of reality from this fantasy C&T have built in their minds needs to be dealt with accordingly. C&T won't come to that realization on their own. I firmly believe it will have to come from B&T with assistance from a professional (not Dawn) to gently pull the plug on visits.

I am also adopted and I 100% agree with you. I have no interest in finding or meeting my birth parents and never have. 

 

However, when my state (Illinois) opened up previously closed adoption records several years ago, I requested a copy of my original birth certificate, just to confirm that what my parents told me was accurate (it was). Eight months later I got a letter in the mail from the department of health informing me that another adopted child with my same birth parents also requested her original birth certificate and if I wanted her info, I could have it, if she also agreed. She did, and so did I. 

It turned out that she lived THREE BLOCKS away from me! We agreed to meet and five years later, I have a new best friend who is also my biological sister a year and a half younger than me, and whom I talk to every day. This experience has been the best thing that’s ever happened to me, other than being adopted by my parents in the first place. :)

But, neither of us have any interest in meeting our birth parents. I felt differently about meeting her, I guess mostly because I had always wanted a sibling (I am an only child), and we were both in the exact same situation. 

 

As an adoptee who also adopted a child, I 100% agree with these posts.  I think the experience is very different for each individual situation.  I was sort of curious and reunited with my biological mother when I was in my 30's.  I didn't seek out "my real family" or feel an emptiness at all.  I was curious and I also felt that if my biological mother could know that I had grown up loved and in a wonderful family that it would help her also come to terms with her very brave decision.  While I am grateful and have much respect for her, in no way did I ever feel that I was missing a mother or father.  My adoptive family (and adopted sister) are/were/will always be my family.  My sister has no curiosity about her bio family and that's fine.  I have been open with my son who is adopted about all the information I have and he has received that information well and hasn't expressed a need or desire to meet his biological family although I've always told him I would help him if he wanted to do that.  Should he decide to do so in the future I will assist him in any way I can.  I can also tell you that I would never feel that our relationship was threatened in any way or that somehow he was looking for a different or "real" mother.  Again, I know of people who feel differently and it is an intensely unique situation for each person, however I will say that I do know many, many adoptees and none of them feel like they are missing their "real" family.  I think they all feel like the shared experiences and love of growing up together and being raised by loving people define a family more than biology.  Again YMMV.

[ReadMeLattice]

My husband's 13 years older than I am. It's never bothered us but we also both had jobs and apartments and no criminal records and I'm not a Real Woman (TM) like Amber, so idk it's not true love like Amber's anyway how can I even compare. 

[TimeToCancelTM]

On 1/1/2018 at 11:33 PM, GreatKazu said:

Amber met Baby Huey through the Marriage Boot Camp show, not social media.

And he was twitter certified!! Dont forget that!

[Court]

I have a 3 year old and am regularly am around her friends. My boyfriend's son is also 3. All.of them carry on full conversations and usually talk in complete sentences. Sometimes some words are hard to understand but you get the jist of what they're saying. 

 

My guess is Nova is never around other kids nor do any of the adults actually talk or really interact with her so that's why she doesn't talk. It wouldn't surprise me if she has developmental delays. 

[FozzyBear]

I’m doing a rewatch of this season of TM as I study and I just got to the scene where Cait and Tyler are talking to the adoption counselor and the other birth mom. There is soooooo much wrong going on in that scene. But I’m here to talk about shallow things like appearances! Well it’s sort of shallow things, sort of not. Anyway, I have been a long time defender of Cait and her weight and that just because she’s a female does not make her obligated to be interested in clothes and hair or whatnot. Just like Tyler’s obvious interest in those things does not mean there is something wrong with him as a man. His general narcissism and self-centered shitty attitude do, just not his metrosexuality. However,the contrast between Cait and the other birthmom I thought really highlighted what some posters have been saying about Cait’s general look lately. The other birthmom was a plus sized gal dressed in causal and inexpensive looking clothes, but she looked nice and presentable. Contrast that to Cait who looked like a 40 year old, unemployed, divorcee who spends all day watching TV and complaining that her ungrateful, worthless kids never do nothing for her on account of they’re all just like their no-good daddies. Suffice to say she looks like worn out, used up shit. She needs to start to care about her future. Not that she needs to care about her clothes all of a sudden, but she needs to care about something other then her past pain. I feel sorry for her, but damn girl. 

 

Engagement photos get the side-eye from me on a good day, but after you already dragged your drugged up fame ticket to the alter? Nope. Have a seat, Mac.