I, Tonya (2017)

[methodwriter85]

9 hours ago, UYI said:

I DID find it funny that En Vogue's "Free Your Mind" played during that scene. Nancy danced to that song on DWTS last year. I wonder if that was chosen deliberately as a shout out/shade by the movie's producers.

This movie was put together pretty quickly and that wouldn't really surprise me if they picked that song in post. I wish they had given Nancy some actual dialogue. I like Caitlyn Carver.

[Milburn Stone]

On 4/25/2018 at 4:26 PM, roughing it said:

Tonya and Nancy were friends?  And had smoking and drinking beer nights?  Maybe in Tonya's mind they were friends.  I think a lot of what's in Tonya's mind is fictional.

I feel like the one defense to be made for the movie is that it is a "meditation on media notoriety," not a biopic. The problem is that it presents itself as a biopic. And that's the only reason people want to watch it. You know that's so because when you ask yourself the question, "What if Tonya Harding never existed and this movie were created from scratch about a totally fictional deeply-flawed skater named Jane Doe whom the media destroys, would anyone go to see it?," you know what the answer would be.

[afterbite]

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I feel like the one defense to be made for the movie is that it is a "meditation on media notoriety," not a biopic. The problem is that it presents itself as a biopic. And that's the only reason people want to watch it. You know that's so because when you ask yourself the question, "What if Tonya Harding never existed and this movie were created from scratch about a totally fictional deeply-flawed skater named Jane Doe whom the media destroys, would anyone go to see it?," you know what the answer would be.

If it contained all of the elements of this story (e.g., an extremely poorly conceived assassination plot on a figure skating rival) then... yes. Yes, I'd go see it.

But, to your point, I'm not sure why it can't serve multiple purposes?

[Milburn Stone]

5 minutes ago, afterbite said:

But, to your point, I'm not sure why it can't serve multiple purposes?

I think because (and you may disagree) I consider it borderline dishonorable for the movie to try to "eat its cake and have it too."

It pretty much admits that it is not to be taken as truth. Yet it relies on an audience's expectation that it is truth to get them in the seats. (Or clicking "rent.") 

[BooBear]

On 2/12/2018 at 3:59 PM, Yokosmom said:

Saw the movie this weekend and loved it, though it never pointed out that Kerrigan also came from a blue-collar background, though admittedly not an awful one like Tonya.  She (Kerrigan) was still able to play the ice princess when she skated.  All of the interviews with the wildly conflicting statements were great, because that's how it does indeed go in real life.  The Shawn Hartnett (international man of mystery who is still living in his parent's basement) character was eminently delusional.

I have always had a soft spot for TH because I used to skate and I do know the Judges want to reward their favorites. I also think she is a good skater. It is hard to get power in jumps. The entire sport was and is corrupt.   If Tonya has any lasting impact I hope that is it. 

I loved the move because it was so well done a lot of the points made were true. Once the event happened it was a media circus and no way they media would let it die.  Two points that bothered me a bit... if Tonya gets to speak to the audience, why can we speak back, and I would say, real life Tonya just will never get it... we know she planned the whole thing so she should just admit it.  The entire movie seems to be building to the idea that it became clear to Tonya that she would have to do something to get around the Judges -- then we are to believe she did nothing? Not buying her "letter" story.  Nancy Kerrigan is falsely considered non white trash but she comes from a tough background too. In addition to her blind mom her bother killed her father - manslaughter (a few years after these events). So clearly there was trouble there too. Personally I feel like Nancy was robbed. The figure skating community knew they couldn't let Nancy win or they would take criticism so they gave it to Oksana Baiul imho undeservingly.  I don't buy into that Nancy vrs Tonya - they were both clearly victims of the media and the figure skating authority. 

[aradia22]

I know I'm late to this but it was on Netflix so I could finally watch it and... it's good. I thought it was really, really good. I was too young to care at the time and there are too many conflicting narratives for me to have an opinion now. But just looking at it as a movie, they did a good job. I loved the look of it. The voiceover worked well. The storytelling was fast-paced and clean but managed to get all the pertinent info in (e.g. the hotel room scene communicating quickly that both Tonya and Nancy were kind of white trash). I thought it did a good job handling the various abusive relationships and how her husband kept luring her back and how she kept wanting love from her mother even as she got more cynical. I have no idea what their real life relationship was like but it was nice that Diane (her first coach) was someone who actually was in her corner, even though she seemingly didn't have to be. Margot Robbie gave a very solid performance throughout. This is the first time I can say that. Allison Janney disappeared a little in the second half and even when she came back, those scenes weren't amazing but she captivating when she first appeared. Some people said she overacted but I think she had a movie star mesmerizing energy. I don't think Sebastian Stan was bad but a moustache wasn't enough to dim his light. I thought he was still too attractive and charming it oversold their romance/relationship. I tend to side with her mother (at least in the context of the movie) that he was just the first guy to tell her she was pretty. I don't know how involved I think she was. The movie certainly pins most of the blame on Shawn and it's easy to hate that idiot. It's so frustrating to watch the plan unfold and the aftermath. It's like the opposite of a successful heist movie. You're watching these bumbling idiots do a terrible thing and ruin so many lives. Anyway, though I haven't decided how I feel about her culpability, the last scene in the court is still heartbreaking because you know the skating association wanted her out for years and this was their excuse. Speaking of excuses, the movie definitely sides with Tonya but I did like how they kept the reliability of all the narrators in doubt by focusing on how she kept repeating "it wasn't my fault" or something to that effect. It casts doubt on whether she did know something/was involved in the plot to injure Kerrigan. 

[aradia22]

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Another takeout was how good Tanya was when she was good, the video at the end gave me goosebumps. The whole thing is so tragic, such a waste of talent. 

I like her clear athleticism. Of course, I also like the more graceful ballerina skaters but I've always had a fondness for the more athletic girls. The Michelle Kwans vs. the Tara Lipinskis. As someone mentioned, it was a little distracting how much older Margot Robbie is than Tonya was supposed to be, especially as teenage Tonya when she first meets Jeff. But in a way it worked because it made it so much more jarring when they mention towards the end that she's 23. She went through all this spousal abuse and her career was taken from her when she would have just barely graduated had she gone to college. 

Quote

If it contained all of the elements of this story (e.g., an extremely poorly conceived assassination plot on a figure skating rival) then... yes. Yes, I'd go see it.

That reminds me of two movies that came out around the same time. One is Meryl Streep's Florence Foster Jenkins which had Meryl Streep and the name of the real person. The other is Marguerite which was a French movie that used the real person as inspiration for a fictional story. 

Quote

I have always had a soft spot for TH because I used to skate and I do know the Judges want to reward their favorites. I also think she is a good skater. It is hard to get power in jumps. The entire sport was and is corrupt.   If Tonya has any lasting impact I hope that is it. 

I haven't watched skating in a while but apparently it's all about the tricks now. Falling or grace is less important because you can get a lot of points for even attempting difficult jumps. 

[UYI]

On 6/3/2018 at 8:19 AM, BooBear said:

I have always had a soft spot for TH because I used to skate and I do know the Judges want to reward their favorites. I also think she is a good skater. It is hard to get power in jumps. The entire sport was and is corrupt.   If Tonya has any lasting impact I hope that is it. 

I loved the move because it was so well done a lot of the points made were true. Once the event happened it was a media circus and no way they media would let it die.  Two points that bothered me a bit... if Tonya gets to speak to the audience, why can we speak back, and I would say, real life Tonya just will never get it... we know she planned the whole thing so she should just admit it.  The entire movie seems to be building to the idea that it became clear to Tonya that she would have to do something to get around the Judges -- then we are to believe she did nothing? Not buying her "letter" story.  Nancy Kerrigan is falsely considered non white trash but she comes from a tough background too. In addition to her blind mom her bother killed her father - manslaughter (a few years after these events). So clearly there was trouble there too. Personally I feel like Nancy was robbed. The figure skating community knew they couldn't let Nancy win or they would take criticism so they gave it to Oksana Baiul imho undeservingly.  I don't buy into that Nancy vrs Tonya - they were both clearly victims of the media and the figure skating authority. 

More than a few years after--it was in 2010. 

[Cherry Cola]

Was Tonya´s mom really like that? Definitely great acting, but depressing movie. Some CGI faces on little tonya and older Tonya when spinning during ice skating were quite obvious. 

[DrSpaceman]

I watched the move recently on Hulu and found it interesting and enjoyable. 

I still don't believe everything they say in the movie and feel like they tried hard to make Tonya a sympathetic figure.  And certainly with the way her mom and ex-husband treated her, at least according to the movie, at the very least, she deserved better

I still think she knew more about the whole plan though than they let on in the movie. 

I didn't realize Nancy had such a rough background as well. 

[Dr.OO7]

On 6/16/2018 at 9:21 PM, DrSpaceman said:

I didn't realize Nancy had such a rough background as well. 

She grew up as poor as Tonya, from what I understand. The difference is, she had the loving, close-knit, supportive family, which Tonya didn't.

I don't think Tonya ever got robbed when it came to her scores. If you look at her competition history, her results are perfectly in line with her experience and the quality of her skating, with her best results in 1991, when she absolutely peaked. As far as the Olympics, she's the one who shot herself in the foot (so to speak) in both appearances by showing up late and having dreadful practices.

To this day, I honestly don't know what to think regarding Tonya's involvement in the attack.

What the hell happened to the Americans in ladies figure skating? This is a sport American women used to OWN--20-something Olympic medals, including 7 golds, and 70-something world championship medals. These are statistics no other country can boast, but since 2006, we've won ONE medal in the world championships and none in the Olympics--we had our worst results in 50 years in Pyeongchang.

[UYI]

On 6/19/2018 at 1:34 AM, Camille said:

She grew up as poor as Tonya, from what I understand. The difference is, she had the loving, close-knit, supportive family, which Tonya didn't.

 

I don't think she was QUITE as poor as Tonya--she never lived in a trailer, like Tonya did. From what I understand, she had the typical working-class Irish-American family in suburban Boston (her dad DID drive the Zamboni at her rink to pay for her lessons at one point, though, in addition to working as a welder--and since her mom has been legally blind since Nancy was a year old, that probably put a greater financial strain on the family, too). But yes, Nancy certainly had the parental love that Tonya struggled to have (she got it from her dad, but even their relationship was somewhat complicated--she does have godparents in Greg and Linda Lewis, though; I'm surprised THEY were never mentioned in the movie; Linda was her manager for many years).

That said, there are a few interviews from Nancy's peak amateur years where it sounds like her parents where ready to have her throw in the towel on her skating career, such as this one here--and this was not only AFTER she had won the bronze medal in the 1992 Olympics (and the silver at Worlds!), but after she acquired enough endorsements to buy her own house on Cape Cod! So that confuses me, given that it sounds like her skating fees were covered by her sponsors by then (and I'm pretty sure Vera Wang always made Nancy's skating dresses for free, too).

Speaking of which, on a shallow note--this is my favorite skating dress of Nancy's. So glittery and beautiful.

Edited June 26, 2018 by UYI

[UYI]

On 6/19/2018 at 1:34 AM, Camille said:

What the hell happened to the Americans in ladies figure skating? This is a sport American women used to OWN--20-something Olympic medals, including 7 golds, and 70-something world championship medals. These are statistics no other country can boast, but since 2006, we've won ONE medal in the world championships and none in the Olympics--we had our worst results in 50 years in Pyeongchang.

Not enough time being spent on developing new talent in the years when Michelle Kwan dominated the National championships? (Sasha Cohen notwithstanding.) That's my guess. That or issues with the scoring system once the old 6.0 system was phased out.

[methodwriter85]

On 6/16/2018 at 4:05 PM, Cherry Cola said:

Was Tonya´s mom really like that? Definitely great acting, but depressing movie. Some CGI faces on little tonya and older Tonya when spinning during ice skating were quite obvious. 

Well, according to Tonya, Allison Janey nailed it. She was very enthusiastic about Alison's portrayal.

On 6/19/2018 at 1:34 AM, Camille said:

What the hell happened to the Americans in ladies figure skating? This is a sport American women used to OWN--20-something Olympic medals, including 7 golds, and 70-something world championship medals. These are statistics no other country can boast, but since 2006, we've won ONE medal in the world championships and none in the Olympics--we had our worst results in 50 years in Pyeongchang.

I thought it was kind of sad how excited the American team was over the team event this year. In 2014, they barely seemed to care about it. In 2018, it was a big focus because they basically knew it was the only way they'd see a podium except possibly ice dance or pairs. It was cool to see Mirai Nagusu become the first American woman to land a triple axel at the Olympics, although I wish she had been able to do in the non-team event.

The funny thing is that Tonya Harding in her prime probably would have done very well in today's skating environment, which seems to emphasize jumps and tricks over grace.

[Dr.OO7]

On 6/26/2018 at 4:59 PM, UYI said:

That's my guess. That or issues with the scoring system once the old 6.0 system was phased out.

I read an article after this year's disastrous Olympics that speculated on that as the very reason. I don't deny that the new scoring system is completely incomprehensible, but it wouldn't somehow make once fantastic skaters into mediocre or crappy ones.

 

On 6/26/2018 at 6:02 PM, methodwriter85 said:

The funny thing is that Tonya Harding in her prime probably would have done very well in today's skating environment, which seems to emphasize jumps and tricks over grace

Tonya did very well even back then. Her best results were in 1991, when she skated her best ever, landing the triple axel in every competition. 

[UYI]

The one thing I would disagree on as far as Tonya being screwed in competition--and this is relevant to the movie, as it was something I would have expected to come up, but didn't--is Nationals in 1993.

She was the first to skate in the long program that night in Phoenix. While it was far from a great performance--she did fall on one of her jumps, and left the triple axel out entirely--she still led for most of the night. Nancy was the last to skate. Her victory was practically preordained the moment Kristi Yamaguchi retired to turn pro the year before, so that wasn't surprising (even though her long program was fairly weak), but you would have thought that Tonya leading for most of the night would just drop her into second place. 

But that's not what happened.

Instead, she was moved down to fourth place, which gave her the pewter medal at Nationals (yes, that's a real thing), and kept her off the World team in Prague. Instead, Lisa Ervin finished second, and Tonia Kwiatkowski finished third, despite the fact that they were BOTH behind Tonya prior to Nancy's skate--and skating after Tonya had skated. What happened next? 

Tonia K.--who, to her credit, was a true journeywoman, a competitor who earned a PhD while still skating and finished her amateur career in 1998 as a late-20's woman surrounded by MUCH younger girls (and not even a trip to the Olympics for her trouble!)--skated so poorly that she didn't even make it out of the qualifying round, meaning she didn't even make it to the short program, and her Nationals performance wasn't exactly impressive, either (and holy crap, her outfit/hair made her look like a female Elvis impersonator, WTF). That was probably the biggest reason why there were only two spots for the American women in the 1994 Olympics.

Lisa had a fall in her short program, which hurt her chances, but otherwise skated fine, albeit not exactly great (and frankly, while she was the only one at Nationals to skate a long program without falling--she fell OUT of a jump, but didn't actually FALL; there IS a difference--her jumps were overall less difficult than the other skaters).

And of course, Nancy. Poor Nancy. She was so overcome by nerves that she bombed all three of her opening jumps, effectively losing the gold before she was even a minute into her performance (and leading to the American women not earning any medals at Worlds for the first time since 1969, when compulsory figures kept Janet Lynn from the podium) . And her long program at Pro-Am a month later was even WORSE.

My point?

If Tonya had not been moved from first to fourth at Nationals after Nancy skated, and been able to go to Worlds with her (along with Lisa Ervin, or even Nicole Bobek, for that matter), I strongly believe the scandal of 1994 would have NEVER happened.

But of course, we'll never really know.

For comparison's sake, here are the five skaters during their long programs at 1993 Nationals, in order: Tonya Harding, Nicole Bobek, Tonia Kwiatkowski, Lisa Ervin, and Nancy Kerrigan.

And for further comparison's sake, here are Lisa and Nancy's programs from Worlds at Prague in 1993, along with Nancy's Pro-Am long program a month after Worlds.

Edited June 30, 2018 by UYI

[methodwriter85]

Well, from what I understand, Nancy headcased it at 1993 Worlds, which is why there were only 2 open spots for the defacto 1994 Olympic Team.

In some alternate universe, Nancy, Tonya, and Michelle Kwan were the 1994 Olympic team, and none of that scandal happened.

I kind of wish the movie HAD gone into that part of the story, but it makes sense why they didn't.

Edited July 1, 2018 by methodwriter85

[UYI]

3 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

Well, from what I understand, Nancy headcased it at 1993 Worlds, which is why there were only 2 open spots for the defacto 1994 Olympic Team.

 

She finished fifth overall after her disastrous long program; she was first after a perfect short program (and she was actually ninth in the rankings concerning long programs only). That, combined with Lisa Ervin's 13th place finish and Tonia Kwiatkowski failing to get out of the qualifying round, left the American one spot short for the Olympics (also, if you haven't seen the profile package of Nancy prior to her 1993 Worlds performance, watch it in the video linked above--the nerves and pressure are all over the place!)

I just think it's interesting to think what might have happened to Tonya had she actually gone to Worlds that year. Of course, we probably wouldn't have a movie. ;)

[Zuleikha]

Instead, she was moved down to fourth place, which gave her the pewter medal at Nationals (yes, that's a real thing), and kept her off the World team in Prague. Instead, Lisa Ervin finished second, and Tonia Kwiatkowski finished third, despite the fact that they were BOTH behind Tonya prior to Nancy's skate--and skating after Tonya had skated.

How did Nancy placing first cause Tonya to become fourth if Tonya was leading until then?

[Raja]

6 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

How did Nancy placing first cause Tonya to become fourth if Tonya was leading until then?

If I am following the conspiracy right it was the establishment deciding that Tonya wasn't one of us and spiked her score to make sure she wasn't on the team. It didn't matter which of the other three was first, just that the outsider had to be low enough and did not stand with them. Because if she made it others of her class might try and ruin "our" thing. Or at least make "us" not so special anymore.  It is the basic segregation era sports story, especially when you judge and not just take the fastest, highest, heaviest lifter etc.

[UYI]

I think the way the scores are between judges may have done it. To be fair, the scoring that year WAS all over the place, and none of the women--not even Nancy, who won--skated their best that night.

All of those videos are up there if you want to watch them. I'm sorry it took up so much room, but I really love figure skating history and videos and I love nerding out on all the trivia. ;)

[Zuleikha]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the original scenario. As I followed it, everyone had skated and Tonya was leading until Nancy's skate. Nancy finished first. That somehow caused Lisa Erwin and Tonia Kwiatkowski to become ahead of Tonya. I don't understand how Nancy finishing first could change the order of skates that had already happened. 

[UYI]

10 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the original scenario. As I followed it, everyone had skated and Tonya was leading until Nancy's skate. Nancy finished first. That somehow caused Lisa Erwin and Tonia Kwiatkowski to become ahead of Tonya. I don't understand how Nancy finishing first could change the order of skates that had already happened. 

I think what happened was that the judges found a way to score each skater in such a way that, when their placements were compared to one another, it changed things enough that Tonya was knocked off the World team.

But I don't want to take things too far off track of what actually happened in the movie, so I'll stop here. :)

[UYI]

The 1986 documentary Sharp Edges--produced by Tonya's childhood friend Sandra Luckow, as a part of the latter's thesis at Yale University--has been given a one week theatrical release in New York and Los Angeles; it debuted last night. It follows a then-fifteen year old Tonya as she prepared to compete at her first Nationals in 1986, and goes into some detail about the obstacles she faced. The look for Allison Janney in I, Tonya was largely based on LaVona's interview in this documentary.

I have seen it before on YouTube; it's pretty good. It's not there anymore, but it might be again someday. IIRC, Sandra Luckow said this theatrical release will feature scenes she originally cut out.

Here is a review of it in Variety:

https://variety.com/2018/film/reviews/film-review-sharp-edges-tonya-harding-1986-1202865442/

This 60 Minutes segment from 1994 shows some scenes from it, including the infamous "What a bitch" scene, after Tonya has a tense conversation with her mother on the phone after competing in Nationals:

[Hanahope]

Saw this on Netflix.  I liked have a background story.  Its a shame that it was probably only 50% true.  But I'm sure Tonya liked having a positive spin on the events to help raise her profile.

As to her skating punishment, while yes other professional atheletes have gotten 'second chances' after committing crimes, those were not against other players.  A closer comparison would be Pete Rose, who was banned from baseball after he was found to have been gambling on games (with the potential to affect the games).

But to give her a bit more of the benefit of the doubt, I'm sure she did feel that the skating judges (and association) was against her, and she did have it tougher than most skaters.  Her family situation was awful.  Its no wonder she hooked up with Gillooly, who not only was the first guy to tell her she was pretty, but it got her out of under the thumb of her abusive mother.  Unfortunately, it got her into a very similar situation, and as happens to most abused women, she just lived with it.

I hadn't thought about the possibility that the Olympic judges didn't want to give the gold to Kerrigan either, after everything, but I do remember Kerrigan's "poo face" after getting silver because Baiul "two footed" her landings.

Good ole USA, have to make a drama out of everything.

I though the acting by everyone was really good.

[Dr.OO7]

Today (or more accurately, yesterday) was the 25th anniversary of the attack on Kerrigan.

[SlovakPrincess]

I did finally watch this.  And ... man, I don't know.  The acting was quite good, I will give them that.  

Two things bothered me: (a) the movie seemed to want to show the horror of Tonya's abuse at the hands of her mother and husband ... while still trying to portray them as somewhat amusing characters, which just felt very wrong to me; and (b) pretty much no sympathy or point of view was given to Nancy Kerrigan.  

I really think they could have made a nuanced movie that shows how Tonya pretty much never had a chance subjected to so much toxicity and cruelty from such a young age, but still treat Nancy being injured with the seriousness it deserves.  

I know a lot of people thought Nancy was snotty before the medal ceremony  (I did as well, back in the day) and that eroded a lot of sympathy for her -- but looking back on it, I can see how she was pretty young at the time, was caught on camera in a very human moment of frustration and disappointment, and it was probably a lot more than just losing the gold to Oksana.  She was probably exhausted by that point and it's not like she got to enjoy that Olympics, what with the stress and likely PTSD of having been attacked, having to work hard to overcome her injury while everyone else was perfecting their routines, and the weirdness of having to be around Tonya and not knowing if this lady had sent someone to attack her.

Anyway.  I certainly felt sympathy for Tonya after learning the horrors of her childhood and marriage.  Showing both women's perspectives (rather than spending so much time poking fun at how stupid Gilooly and the body guard were) would have been a lot more interesting to me.  

[Simon Boccanegra]

It's been a while since I saw it, but as I recall, it's more of a character study of Harding and her mother, with the attack (and the fallout from same) as a dramatic climax. I wouldn't even be able to say without looking it up who played Kerrigan in the film; she's such a minor presence. (Okay, I did look it up. Caitlin Carver.)

If it had been a movie more narrowly focused on the rivalry between Kerrigan and Harding, or the investigation and media circus that followed the attack, I would want more about Kerrigan's feelings, point of view, and struggles to come back. And that could have been a good movie, sure; it just isn't the one they made. I think the aim was more to show the world from which Tonya Harding emerged, what kind of skater she was, how her background and personality influenced her style, how she was perceived, why she associated with such unsavory characters, and so on.

The portrayals of Jeff and LaVona as both awful and occasionally amusing didn't bother me, because the tone the film aims for is black comedy. On that level I thought it was successful. As I too remember these events and how everyone was preoccupied with them in the early months of 1994, I also enjoyed it as a period piece. Ms. Janney was deserving of her Academy Award, even though, had I been a voter, I'd have flipped a coin and checked the box for either Laurie Metcalf or Lesley Manville. Their films were better and they impressed me just that much more. But I was happy for Janney anyway, and I've liked her in so many things over the years. (Her single scene in Margaret...chills.) 

[Milburn Stone]

7 hours ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

The portrayals of Jeff and LaVona as both awful and occasionally amusing didn't bother me, because the tone the film aims for is black comedy. On that level I thought it was successful. As I too remember these events and how everyone was preoccupied with them in the early months of 1994, I also enjoyed it as a period piece.

I sign on to all of that. The problem for me was that the film wanted to "eat its cake and have it too." It wanted to be a black comedy, and it wanted to pretend to be telling the true story of what happened. (Let's face it; even though they themselves, within the film, couch the film as maybe being fictional, the filmmakers know as well as anybody that people are coming to the film because they expect to see a reality-based treatment. And audiences can only enjoy the film to the extent that they can ignore the internal disclaimers and believe it to be close enough to the truth. If the film had been about Shmonya Shmarding and Shmancy Shmerrigan, it would have sunk without a trace.)

Edited February 5, 2019 by Milburn Stone

[SlovakPrincess]

Yeah, I don’t think Nancy needed to be given equal time with Tonya, as obviously the movie is more about Tonya.

But the film unnecessarily includes the claim that Nancy acted like a goody two shoes but was really drinking and smoking with Tonya at one point.   Which ... what is the movie trying to say? Is it pushing the (reprehensible, in my view) idea that Nancy was stuck up and phony and thus less deserving of sympathy?  Or is it just showing that this is Tonya’s attitude, and Tonya can’t help herself from being resentful or defensive?

Also not sure how much I buy into the idea that the skating world was overtly cruel to Tonya.  Lots of skaters get judged harshly / never get medals for all their hard work / get some bad breaks or scores that should’ve been higher.  For instance, the French skater who got rushed out to do her routine early, while Tonya got extra time to fix her skate lace (I remember Scott Hamilton commenting at the time that this seemed unfair, and indeed the girl did poorly).  

Although perhaps that was the point — Tonya’s traumatic life made it hard for her to see anyone else’s struggles?   

[angora]

I thought the quick scene of Tonya and Nancy hanging out in the hotel room drinking together served a dual purpose, in both cases challenging the particular narrative the media presented of these two skaters:  1) the two weren't locked in an eternal rivalry from day one and 2) the "Nancy = America's sweetheart, Tonya = trailer trash" dichotomy the media promoted wasn't the whole truth.  I don't think it was saying anything about Nancy as much as it was saying about people's PERCEPTION of Nancy based on the narrative that magazines and the news were selling, that for both Nancy and Tonya, the truth was more complicated than that.

I don't mind that the film depicts the attack the way it does, even though I'm sure Tonya was more involved in real life.  For me, the movie casts enough doubt on the reliability of its narrators earlier on - different people contradicting each other, Tonya breaking the fourth wall to say "that never happened," etc. - that I can buy the ending as what the characters are SAYING happened vs. what actually happened.  I agree that people typically go into historical-based movies expecting accuracy, but I personally think the movie sets up that it's not that kind of film (maybe it's just because I like Tom Stoppard plays - a lot of his work deals with historical events that have conflicting accounts of what happened/there are few hard details about them/etc., and he often uses various techniques to downplay the idea that "this is definitely how it really happened.")

[Simon Boccanegra]

1 hour ago, angora said:

I agree that people typically go into historical-based movies expecting accuracy, but I personally think the movie sets up that it's not that kind of film

Yes. And even films that are that kind of film turn out not to be that kind of film. Looking back over five years of "true story" Oscar bait, no one should see any one of The Imitation Game, Bridge of Spies, The Danish Girl, Hacksaw Ridge, Hidden Figures, Darkest Hour, The Post, Green Book, or BlacKkKlansman and come out believing the events have been presented with accuracy as first priority. Some of these are good movies, and they all have good performances, but they are all a long way from the factual rigor we would ask from a documentary or nonfiction book on the subject.

[Shannon L.]

1 hour ago, angora said:

For me, the movie casts enough doubt on the reliability of its narrators earlier on - different people contradicting each other, Tonya breaking the fourth wall to say "that never happened," etc. - that I can buy the ending as what the characters are SAYING happened vs. what actually happened. 

That's exactly how I saw this movie. 

[Bastet]

6 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Also not sure how much I buy into the idea that the skating world was overtly cruel to Tonya.

Oh, I regard that as one of life's absolute truths.

[Black Knight]

4 hours ago, Shannon L. said:

That's exactly how I saw this movie. 

Me as well, so it didn't bother me at all.

I think the single best moment is when Tonya says in an interview, "I mean, come on! What kind of friggin' person bashes in their friend's knee? Who would do that to a friend?" and Margot Robbie just gives such a look at that moment that you know you're looking at someone who would do that. It just really underlined for me the point that this is just what people are saying happened, not necessarily what actually happened.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Black Knight

[nicepebbles]

I saw about 20-30 mins of this movie on a plane ride. From what I saw, the performances were good. I agree that AJ was really good. I hated her character so much. I also liked what I think the movie was going for, in principle at least. What had me stop watching was MR playing 15yo. That took me out of the movie. And I found out I couldn't really take the "this is everyone's version of events, who knows what is the truth". I appreciate the full warning though. I like black comedies and this was going for that. I guess I was expecting more truth especially since I have forgotten everything about that situation except that it happened. And it didn't really feel right that his was treated as a comedy even a black comedy. Tonya's mother was horrendous and at 15 Tonya is starting to be abused by her boyfriend. I just had to stop watching. I really wanted to watch the whole thing but just had to turn it off. 

[methodwriter85]

20 hours ago, Black Knight said:

I think the single best moment is when Tonya says in an interview, "I mean, come on! What kind of friggin' person bashes in their friend's knee? Who would do that to a friend?" and Margot Robbie just gives such a look at that moment that you know you're looking at someone who would do that. It just really underlined for me the point that this is just what people are saying happened, not necessarily what actually happened.

Margot had an interview where she said something along the lines of, "We tried to get at the reasons why these people are saying what happened, rather than get at the truth of what actually happened." That's a pretty interesting tact to take, and I think this movie did a good job at that.

On 2/5/2019 at 4:49 PM, SlovakPrincess said:

Or is it just showing that this is Tonya’s attitude, and Tonya can’t help herself from being resentful or defensive?

I think this movie is largely based on the 2014 interview that Tonya did, and she does things like talk about how Nancy's treated like the perfect queen while being trailer trash and the remark about Nancy's attitude at the medal ceremony.

[UYI]

I found a great interview recently from 1994--the first interview Tonya gave after officially being banned from amateur skating. This would be one of the few sympathetic interviews I would ever see with her before the release of I, Tonya (Meredith Vieira's interview with her on the Today Show in 2008 upon the release of her book The Tonya Tapes being another noteworthy example). The host who interviewed her, Rolonda Watts, posted this to YouTube herself.

[UYI]

On 2/5/2019 at 4:49 PM, SlovakPrincess said:

 

Also not sure how much I buy into the idea that the skating world was overtly cruel to Tonya.  Lots of skaters get judged harshly / never get medals for all their hard work / get some bad breaks or scores that should’ve been higher.  For instance, the French skater who got rushed out to do her routine early, while Tonya got extra time to fix her skate lace (I remember Scott Hamilton commenting at the time that this seemed unfair, and indeed the girl did poorly).  

  

Josee Chouinard (and she's actually Canadian--well, French-Canadian; she's from Quebec). She was in the position to win Worlds in 1993, as she was the last to skate (and ironically right after Nancy, who had just blown her OWN chance to win Worlds), only to suffer an unfortunate fall at the very beginning of her program, which rattled her and ruined her chance for gold, too (the winner? Oksana Baiul, despite it being her first--and as it turned out, only--World Championships). Here's her 1993 long program, first at Canadian Nationals, then a month later at Worlds in Prague.

So she had a history of doing well at the Canadian Nationals, only to perform poorly at bigger events afterwards. But yes, the insanity with Tonya before her long program in Lillehammer certainly didn't help. She gave a very sweet, charming interview after it was over, though (seen at the end of her program here):

[Armchair Critic]

I guess I was expecting more, this seemed like one of those made for TV movies they used to play on Sunday nights like the Amy Fisher ones.

[festivus]

I watched this yesterday. I think it was good? I don't know, I was zonked out of my mind. They did get the press conference and the skate lace thing right, I remember those like it was yesterday. 

[Morlock]

I thought the film was very well done and has an old school feel to it. The story is interesting and although it could be argued that they tried to show Tonya as the victim, for me it is more a case of just presenting the story which is as per the title told from her point of view in a straight forward manner. She did have to fight for just about everything and from the film anyway it seems the ice skating foundation or whatever they were, never liked the idea of a trailer trash girl competing in their pretty sport. 

There are some probably unintentional funny moments mostly surrounding her low rent friends and family. And her temper tantrums. 

[Kel Varnsen]

UKWached this last night on netflix and really enjoyed it. Reminded me a lot of Goodfellas what with the voice overs, the retelling of a true crime story and the classic rock soundtrack.

I liked what Margot Robbie did but a lot of times I saw her playing Jaime Pressly playing Joy Hickey from My Name is Earl. To the point where I kind of wish they had just made this movie 10 or 15 years ago and actualy hired Jaime Pressly.

The guy playing the "bodyguard" was awesome though with his delusional stupidity.

[methodwriter85]

9 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

To the point where I kind of wish they had just made this movie 10 or 15 years ago and actualy hired Jaime Pressly.

Jamie Pressly was a trained gymnast and a dancer, which makes me think she could have actually nailed figured skating. (They probably would have still had to use doubles, but probably not as much.)

I also kept thinking about how I wanted them to get Analeigh Tipton for Nancy, because she trained in figured skating and I thought we should have seen Nancy skate.

[Chas411]

Finally got around to seeing this. Excellent performances. I didn’t watch it for a long time because I found the awards campaign so tacky with them bringing Harding to awards shows etc. Still don’t buy the poor Nancy victim but an excellent watch. 

[Bastet]

I finally got around to watching this last night, and I'm glad I did; I loved it.  The script is a wonderful dance between tragedy and comedy, and the performances are fantastic.  There's great commentary on the media and society.  And I love the format; my favorite moment of breaking the fourth wall is at the end of Jeff's "I never hit her, but she took a shot at me" story, when Tonya cocks the gun and turns to us to say, "This is bullshit; I never did this."

I love it ending with real footage of that historic performance at Nationals, because as wonderfully as Robbie channeled the emotions, there's just nothing like the look on the real Tonya's face when she landed the triple axel and, especially, at the end of the routine. 

One of my favorite scenes in the film is when Tonya is talking about that moment, when she knew she was the best skater in the world -- how she gets a little wistful and says nobody ever asks her about that anymore. 

And I had good laughs at all of Tonya's "Can I just say one thing about Nancy Kerrigan" interruptions.  Especially the one about how she just won Olympic silver and looks like she stepped in poop.

[qtpye]

On 2/21/2018 at 10:03 AM, charmed1 said:

I agree with so many of you. I too thought the actress playing Harding was of the wrong body type, which normally wouldn’t be a big deal, but the real Tonya Harding’s body type was such a big deal back then. TH was a solid, thick as hell, athlete with an athletic body, but it was contrary to the waif-like, ballerina on ice image of figure skaters at the time. I would kill to have a body like that.

I also thought the film made Harding out to be a victim. Nancy Kerrigan was absolutely the victim, and she too trained her entire life and didn’t deserve to be maliciously injured by some disturbed, entitled, envious person. I wasn’t a big Nancy fan, (I was rooting for Kristi Yamaguchi)but man did I love her outfits! Nancy’s skating outfits were a young girl’s prom dress fashion plate. They were so freaking beautiful, and she made them look even more beautiful on the ice. Oksana on the other hand, I thought looked like a painted chicken. I didn’t understand how TH got shit for her style, when Oksana got away with looking like that. And even though I was a young teenager at the time, the sight of her little legs in those huge skates made me think even more that she shouldn’t be competing with adults. I had a really irrational teenage hate for that kid. Sorry Oksana.

 

On 4/25/2018 at 5:26 PM, roughing it said:

I had a hard time with Robbie's portrayal, not in the acting but the physical attributes, that it often took me out of the story.  It was almost comical portraying a 15 year old Tonya when Margot looks 35. (I don't know how old she is.)  The wide eyes when Tonya has close-set eyes.  Tonya is short and muscular and Margot tall and lithe.  I had trouble reconciling it all.

Tonya and Nancy were friends?  And had smoking and drinking beer nights?  Maybe in Tonya's mind they were friends.  I think a lot of what's in Tonya's mind is fictional.

Yes, Kerrigan was definitely the real victim and I am not a fan of her skating.

As someone who remembers Harding as an amazing talent, I actually thought the movie really exaggerated her "white trashiness".

Sure she was a rough around the edges scrapper compared to some of the ballerina swan types but I remember her as a soft-spoken tiny powerhouse on the ice.

I hate that she was so abused by her mother but she does need to take some consequences for her actions.

[UYI]

I found this article again for the first time in a few years the other day, and I wanted to share it here. Interestingly, this was written in 2014 (so specifically twenty years after the original scandal), three-four years before this movie was released, and yet it certainly foreshadows how the narrative around how people perceive Tonya has changed since 1994, and how it accelerated after this movie's release in particular:

https://believermag.com/remote-control

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by UYI

[lasu]

16 hours ago, UYI said:

I found this article again for the first time in a few years the other day, and I wanted to share it here. Interestingly, this was written in 2014 (so specifically twenty years after the original scandal), three-four years before this movie was released, and yet it certainly foreshadows how the narrative around how people perceive Tonya has changed since 1994, and how it accelerated after this movie's release in particular:

The author of that article is one of the two original hosts of the podcast You're Wrong About.  If you enjoyed this essay on Harding, I HIGHLY recommend the podcast series.

[Ohiopirate02]

16 minutes ago, lasu said:

The author of that article is one of the two original hosts of the podcast You're Wrong About.  If you enjoyed this essay on Harding, I HIGHLY recommend the podcast series.

I saw the byline and knew it would be a good piece.  I love listening to Sarah and her series detailing the maligned women of the 90s.  I really appreciated the lens which Sarah looked through in this piece and have always agreed with this interpretation even before understanding concepts like performative femininity.  I was a girl who never fit into the princess box, and my 13 year old self was drawn to Tonya.