S35.E13: Million Dollar Night

[ghoulina]

21 hours ago, NeverLate said:

I don't think it was last minute, I watched and what Jeff said. It wasn't just popped in at the last minute, and certainly didn't assure Ben of a win. I claimed Devon was an airhead weeks ago, but to lay back and chill, meant he gave up, Ben never gave up. Never.

When I say last minute, I mean it was announced before THAT challenge. Contestants were not told at the start of the season that F3 was coming down to fire. They changed the whole format of the game. The whole premise of this game has always been - you can win Idols and find Idols and make big moves, but at the end of the day - it's are these people going to vote you out or not. There's never any Idols after F5. You have to get yourself F3. Ben didn't do that. Yes, he did great with the fire challenge and won it, fair and square. But there BEING a fire challenge is what I take issue with. It's not Ben's fault, and I like the guy. I'm not mad at him, but I can't be super excited about this win. It feels dirty to me. 

[NeverLate]

19 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

When I say last minute, I mean it was announced before THAT challenge. Contestants were not told at the start of the season that F3 was coming down to fire. They changed the whole format of the game. The whole premise of this game has always been - you can win Idols and find Idols and make big moves, but at the end of the day - it's are these people going to vote you out or not. There's never any Idols after F5. You have to get yourself F3. Ben didn't do that. Yes, he did great with the fire challenge and won it, fair and square. But there BEING a fire challenge is what I take issue with. It's not Ben's fault, and I like the guy. I'm not mad at him, but I can't be super excited about this win. It feels dirty to me. 

Why would they announce that? It would take the fun out of it for me. I did read F4 will be a twist..

I think there is way too many conspiracy theories regarding his win. I love he won,moving on, see ya next season..?

[MissEwa]

14 minutes ago, NeverLate said:

Why would they announce that? It would take the fun out of it for me.

Because it's a fundamental shift in the game and how you get to the end and it informs strategy. Now, in this case Ben might still have played three HIIs in a row and ended up in the same spot... or they might have voted him out instead of Joe, when it became apparent he was a massive threat to win. 

I understand there are always twists you can't plan for - tribe swaps/merges/demerges/weird IIs early on - but like @ghoulina rightly pointed out, you've always had to get yourself to FTC without idols or twists or advantages, either by winning immunity, or by being on the right side of a vote. This changes that and I don't think it's fair they weren't told. 

[violet and green]

6 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

 I wanted to tell him, "You want your kids' college funded and your retirement, too?  Do what the majority of us do and go to college and get a real job and fund those things yourself."  

 

6 hours ago, Special K said:

Harsh but so true. 

Anyone know what he does for a living?

 

5 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

And yet they usually have no trouble funding the latest iphone and leasing a different car every third year and $200 cable bills and all the other non-investment crap people spend their money on.  

I found this that says he works at a grocery warehouse as a stocker. 

http://www.cbs8.com/story/37115314/survivor-winner-ben-driebergen-reveals-how-hell-spend-his-1-million-prize-exclusive

Which is kind of funny because my daughter and I had this conversation during the show and I said, "He probably works at Wal-Mart," thinking what would he do that the show would never mention, instead cherry picking his most interesting past vocation, as they and all reality shows are wont to do.  I still laugh at BB's Austin, the "pro wrestler", which he did for about a month.  

Wow! Maybe you'd be good at going off to war and coming home with PTSD, with its accompanying suicidal depression, misc. terrors, freefloating anxiety, hypervigilance, insomnia, and whatever, and then somehow getting yourself into a college and getting a degree while struggling to want to get out of bed at all... or maybe not! Many vets never work again, not because they lack some sort of perky get up and go, but because they're not able to.

I'm impressed he has any sort of job at all.

I get that people resent Ben's win, but five of the jurors voted for him after playing with him, being blindsided by him, being targeted by him, in Cole's case, after not being his ally, in JP's case, and after being his sometimes enemy, in Joe's case. There would have been more women on the jury stacked to vote for Chrissy's awesomeness if she hadn't been so intent on getting every other woman aside from herself out.

[iMonrey]

Quote

As has been pointed out by a fair number of people on this board, anyone could have won that immunity and the "advantage", including Ben. And if they were rigging a challenge, I doubt that they would have come up with the various puzzle challenges that they had at the last set of challenges once they knew that Chrissy was that good at puzzles. If they wanted to make sure Ben got to the finals, they would have changed the challenges to be more in his favor.

To what? He hasn't shown aptitude for any type of challenges. And this wasn't strictly a "puzzle" challenge so much as a balance challenge.

And, no matter how you spin it, there is no denying that this "advantage" was designed specifically to prevent Chrissy, Devon and Ryan from simply voting Ben out. Sure, Ben could have won it himself, all the better from production's perspective, rendering it irrelevant. It was there to safeguard against Ben getting voted out in case he lost the challenge. In no way, shape or form was it an "advantage" for anyone else.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

To what? He hasn't shown aptitude for any type of challenges. And this wasn't strictly a "puzzle" challenge so much as a balance challenge.

And, no matter how you spin it, there is no denying that this "advantage" was designed specifically to prevent Chrissy, Devon and Ryan from simply voting Ben out. Sure, Ben could have won it himself, all the better from production's perspective, rendering it irrelevant. It was there to safeguard against Ben getting voted out in case he lost the challenge. In no way, shape or form was it an "advantage" for anyone else.

So you think that when the season started taping the twist didn't exist but they invented it on the fly out there and then announced at the beginning of airing of this season, as if it existed from the start?  Did they give Devon faulty flint, too?  

I'm a little surprised people who think it's so rigged after all these years, and feel angry about that, still watch.  I think the Bachelor franchise is 100% bullshit so you couldn't pay me to watch.  

2 hours ago, ghoulina said:

When I say last minute, I mean it was announced before THAT challenge. Contestants were not told at the start of the season that F3 was coming down to fire. They changed the whole format of the game. The whole premise of this game has always been - you can win Idols and find Idols and make big moves, but at the end of the day - it's are these people going to vote you out or not. There's never any Idols after F5. You have to get yourself F3. Ben didn't do that. Yes, he did great with the fire challenge and won it, fair and square. But there BEING a fire challenge is what I take issue with. It's not Ben's fault, and I like the guy. I'm not mad at him, but I can't be super excited about this win. It feels dirty to me. 

It bugs me that Devon was not voted out.  I know he's not the first but it still feels unfair, that late in the game.  

1 hour ago, violet and green said:

Maybe you'd be good at going off to war

I would never be in the position because I know the odds of funding my life, keeping my life and keeping my mental health are much better by going to college.  And no one is drafted.  If you want to award him hero status, feel free.  I know it's not popular but if people would quit signing up to be cannon fodder for tiny compensation and a tiny hero shingle, we'd have to really pay people in the DoD, and/or quit sending men into foreign wars for decades on end.  Probably the latter since taxpayers typically don't want to pay more for anything.

[violet and green]

42 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

If you want to award him hero status, feel free. 

I don't think he's a hero, I think he's a guy who is doing it tough. He can't time-travel back in time and undo joining the marines. Maybe he only joined to get out of poverty. I don't know his backstory. But having served, and suffered, and struggled consequently, I don't think a bit of compassion for his situation would go astray. I also can't see anything wrong with stating the facts: he could use the money to better his family's future. What was anyone else going to say about what they'd do with the money that would be less offensive?!

[Hanahope]

I have no objection to the person winning nor that they deserve to win, it’s the how the won, by the absolute ton of idols and advantages in the game.  It’s the fact that a brand new idol was put into the game at F5 to get someone to F4.  And that was right after a brand new idol was put into the game at F6.

 It’s just too many.  I felt the same last season with all the idols and advantages that knocked Cirie out.

There needs to be some strategy in the game and all the idols and advantages completely eliminate strategy.  All you need to do is find and play an idol each TC.

[CountryGirl]

I guess I'm in the minority and was thrilled that Ben won. 

I couldn't stomach Chrissy and her disdain for and targeting all of the other women, starting with Roark, and crowing about how SHE wanted to be the only woman standing. Say you want to be the sole survivor, fine, but I just could not with her and her attitude toward other female players. Plus, I can't stand hypocrites and she's one of the most hypocritical players that have ever played. If she wanted to gloat, be gleeful, smug, etc., oh, well, that was her due, but when someone else got the upper hand at tribal, God forbid they revel in their victory and hurt poor widdle Chrissy's feelings. Don't dish out what you can't handle, lady.

Back to Ben...for at least one third of the game, Ben had NO ONE. He had only himself to rely on. Every time he thought he was in the driver's seat, boom, there was a shift and he had to scramble, most notably with the tribal swap and the conversation at the well that was the beginning of the end for Lauren. Everyone constantly talked about Ben being a huge threat and that was long before he found an idol and none of it had anything to do with him being a Marine. Except for the possible PTSD incident where he didn't make a big deal out of it, he just stepped away for some quiet time in the water, or when Joe was being a dick and claiming he swore on his being a Marine (which, never happened), there was no big to-do about him being a Marine. Joe prompted him to discuss it at the final TC. He opened that door. Not Ben.

Yes, the idols (which I don't disagree are getting a bit much along with all the secret advantages) certainly helped, I can't help but  wonder if some might have been less bitter about the idols if anyone other than Ben had found them. Desi clearly laid out why he won - 4 people, 1-2-3-4, lazing around while he went to work digging and saving his ass. When she said that, I could see that resonate with the jurors. 

He dug and dug and dug while they did...nothing. So smug, so entitled, so self-assured that one of them had it in the bag, Chrissy most of all, that they sat on their collective asses while Ben dug and dug and dug some more. 

To me, that makes all the difference. 

[Paws]

4 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

I guess I'm in the minority and was thrilled that Ben won. 

I couldn't stomach Chrissy and her disdain for and targeting all of the other women, starting with Roark, and crowing about how SHE wanted to be the only woman standing. Say you want to be the sole survivor, fine, but I just could not with her and her attitude toward other female players. Plus, I can't stand hypocrites and she's one of the most hypocritical players that have ever played. If she wanted to gloat, be gleeful, smug, etc., oh, well, that was her due, but when someone else got the upper hand at tribal, God forbid they revel in their victory and hurt poor widdle Chrissy's feelings. Don't dish out what you can't handle, lady.

Back to Ben...for at least one third of the game, Ben had NO ONE. He had only himself to rely on. Every time he thought he was in the driver's seat, boom, there was a shift and he had to scramble, most notably with the tribal swap and the conversation at the well that was the beginning of the end for Lauren. Everyone constantly talked about Ben being a huge threat and that was long before he found an idol and none of it had anything to do with him being a Marine. Except for the possible PTSD incident where he didn't make a big deal out of it, he just stepped away for some quiet time in the water, or when Joe was being a dick and claiming he swore on his being a Marine (which, never happened), there was no big to-do about him being a Marine. Joe prompted him to discuss it at the final TC. He opened that door. Not Ben.

Yes, the idols (which I don't disagree are getting a bit much along with all the secret advantages) certainly helped, I can't help but  wonder if some might have been less bitter about the idols if anyone other than Ben had found them. Desi clearly laid out why he won - 4 people, 1-2-3-4, lazing around while he went to work digging and saving his ass. When she said that, I could see that resonate with the jurors. 

He dug and dug and dug while they did...nothing. So smug, so entitled, so self-assured that one of them had it in the bag, Chrissy most of all, that they sat on their collective asses while Ben dug and dug and dug some more. 

To me, that makes all the difference. 

Well, and that’s it right there. A lot of us are steamed about Ben’s win not because we feel he didn’t deserve it—he did earn it!—but because all those idols and the twist at the end tipped the game he was already winning toward him, which was unfair. This whole thing wasn’t just unfair to Chrissy and Devon and Ryan, it was unfair to Ben because it cheapened his win. He’s so resourceful, who  knows, he probably would have found yet another way to stay alive without the outside manipulation, thus further cementing his legitimacy as the winner. Now his win is tainted through no fault of his own. It just sucks. This game is about VOTES.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Paws

[fishcakes]

On 12/21/2017 at 10:41 AM, MissEwa said:

You spend 38 days forming alliances and playing a game - by the rules you've been told - in the hope that if you don't win FTC you will be in the right alliance and not get voted out. You can't idol your way in, or use an advantage. You have to win FI, or be on the right side of the numbers.  That's how you earn your place.

Being on the right side of the numbers might mean you've earned your place, or it might mean just mean you're a goat who got carried to the end. People disagree on how goaty particular players are, but there have been a lot of players in F3 seasons who were on the right side of the numbers but who were considered by viewers to have been undeserving of making it to FTC. Dreamz, Mick, both Natalie and Phil in Redemption Island, Albert, Sherri -- God, Sherri was just a barnacle who made it to FTC, Gervase, Hannah, Troy. (I don't agree with all of these; I'm just going by the amount of disdain they received by viewers for getting to the end by virtue of being in the right alliance.)

 

5 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

5 hours ago, BarneySays said:

She could not have selected both people to sit next to her.  She could have voted for Ben to be out and hope that her alliance mates voted with her.

They would have. We all know that for a fact. Which means she would have chosen both people to sit next to.

It means all three would have chosen, not that Chrissy alone would have. It happens to coincide with what she wanted to do, but that's not always going to be the case for a final immunity challenge winner. In Kaoh Rong, Michelle wanted Cydney in the F3 with her, but because Aubrey and Tai stuck together, there was a tie and Cydney lost the tie-breaker. Same for Worlds Apart; Mike wanted Carolyn in the F3, but Rodney and Will stuck together, there was a tie, and Carolyn won, but that was by no means a sure thing. I'm sure Michelle and Mike would have loved for the twist to have appeared in their seasons because it would have allowed them to save the one person they wanted to save and put the risk of the fire-making challenge on the two people they didn't care about. Essentially what the twist did is that it gave Chrissy two immunities, one for herself and one for whoever she chose to give it to. It didn't work out for her in this particular situation (and really I doubt it mattered because if the three had voted out Ben, then I think she just would have lost to Devon), but in general, I don't think getting immunity for yourself and for another person of your choosing is a disadvantage.

[Rachel RSL]

I was referring to this specific case, not all the previous F3s. Semantics I guess but my point was, in this particular instance, Chrissy (and Ryan & Devon) had chosen who they wanted to be sitting next to in F3 and that choice was taken away from them by the "advantage".

And I agree with what others have said, Ben winning wouldn't have been so annoying if he had got there by winning Immunity or swaying the votes. This last minute twist just taints his win.

[tessat]

Would this twist have tainted the win if JP, Cole or Joe were in Ben's shoes? What if Devon, Ashley and Ben were the final three and the twist helped Chrissy who was the 4th person. I think the objection to this twist has a lot more to do with people not liking Ben than it does with the twist itself.

 

When you like someone - you're glad they get to survive another day - when you dislike someone - you're  mad they lived to survive another day. When Russell kept finding idols - most cursed that production kept hiding them to keep the drama and people watching to see if he could finally be voted out - when Ben finds the idols - assumptions are made that production is giving him clues to find the idols because they want to push the PTSD story and they know many people want him to win.

 

There are always conspiracy theories - there will always be those who dislike how the game is being played or call it "staged". There will never be a coming together as every one is adamant - they are right. It's done - it's over with Ben won.  We as viewers have the right not to watch the show in the future if we disagree with the situation. I stopped watching the Biggest Loser after the bullying year and never watched again. It's your choice - but we can't change the ending - so best to move on and talk about what ever else is finally going to start!

[Paws]

Quote

Would this twist have tainted the win if JP, Cole or Joe were in Ben's shoes? What if Devon, Ashley and Ben were the final three and the twist helped Chrissy who was the 4th person. I think the objection to this twist has a lot more to do with people not liking Ben than it does with the twist itself.

Yes, it would have been tainted no matter who won with it, because there was no vote, and players were not told of it early in the game. 

[fishcakes]

3 hours ago, tessat said:

Would this twist have tainted the win if JP, Cole or Joe were in Ben's shoes? What if Devon, Ashley and Ben were the final three and the twist helped Chrissy who was the 4th person. I think the objection to this twist has a lot more to do with people not liking Ben than it does with the twist itself.

I'm one of the few people who doesn't think Ben's win is tainted or that the twist is unfair and I can see how with a different set of players it would be an advantage to the final immunity winner, but I don't like the twist mainly because I think it's a pointless change that doesn't add strategic complexity to the game.* Whether people know about it in advance or not, they can't really strategize around it because all it means is "make sure everyone in the F4 is part of your alliance," which is not something they can ensure and that's the goal anyway. With this group, they wouldn't have done anything differently if they'd known. We know they wouldn't have voted Ben out earlier because that's what they'd wanted to do for weeks and weren't able to.

*(I also don't like the fire-making challenge being used to break a tie mostly because it's boring to watch, but also because it has nothing to do with the  social aspect of the game; I'd rather see something like trivia questions about other players.)

As for particular personalities, I couldn't stand Chrissy, but if Ben had won the final IC and the twist had ended up saving Chrissy, I still wouldn't think it's unfair. And people who've said they thought it was unfair to save Ben say they also would think it was unfair to save Chrissy if it had turned out that way, and I have no reason to doubt them. But then your question would be if they're only saying it's unfair because they hate Chrissy, which kind of highlights that the bigger problem with this season is that a good argument can be made that every single person was unlikable and/or a bad player and didn't deserve to win. Unexpected twists are a part of the game and always have been and by virtue of that alone, they're fair. However, they'd need fewer twists to keep the game fresh if they'd do a better job of casting. When they cast 18 people ranging from "meh, (s)he's okay, just kind of stupid" to "OMG I HATE THIS FUCKER SO MUCH," then it's not going to be a good season regardless of how many new twists get thrown into the mix.

Edited December 23, 2017 by fishcakes

[peachmangosteen]

15 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I'm a little surprised people who think it's so rigged after all these years, and feel angry about that, still watch.  I think the Bachelor franchise is 100% bullshit so you couldn't pay me to watch.  

We are way too deep in it now to get out! Back in the beginning none of us realized just how much Productions on reality shows were willing to do to achieve whatever they wanted. I feel like it's all just a part of the show now and yea you just have to accept it or stop watching. It takes awhile to get to the accepting part though! And even after 35 seasons of this and 18 seasons of Big Brother it does still sometimes piss me off when blatant or subtle rigging comes into play.

16 minutes ago, fishcakes said:

However, they'd need fewer twists to keep the game fresh if they'd do a better job of casting. When they cast 18 people ranging from "meh, (s)he's okay, just kind of stupid" to "OMG I HATE THIS FUCKER SO MUCH," then it's not going to be a good season regardless of how many new twists get thrown into the mix.

Ugh, why can't they see this?! Why do they think the only way to keep the show fresh is to add 500 twists/idols/advantages to every season? They're so lazy.

Edited December 23, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[tessat]

My problem with casting is when they recruit people for these shows - or so and so was on BB and he says his brother's girlfriend's sister would be great and then she's on the next season and we find out through the tabloids how she ended up being casted. There are plenty of people to pick from each year without shopping around for production's idea of the ideal contestant. As we saw - Chrissy tried out 16 yrs before being selected - I and a friend tried out for Amazing Race 3 yrs running and called it quits.

 

No matter who eventually is selected - whether producer driven or from a pool - there will always be people we love and people we hate. Some people are really good at deceiving others during interviews - and could be a totally different person once selected and on the show. A person liked by one may not be liked by someone else - whether casted or selected.

 

My greatest memories of this show were of Rudy and Richard on the first season, Rupert stealing the other team's supplies and Ozzie being such a powerhouse. I remember other players - mostly because they irritated me like Rob and Russell or were endearing to me like Tai -but most are forgettable. I don't need Exile Island, Redemption Island, 15 hundred idols ect.. Give me a good challenges and real people - not someone looking to use a reality show to get an acting job, be a special reporter ect... There are still people who want to play the game for the sake of the game - we seem each year to get more people who just want their face shown on TV - to further their careers and they do little to enhance the game either for themselves or viewers.

[MissEwa]

7 hours ago, tessat said:

Would this twist have tainted the win if JP, Cole or Joe were in Ben's shoes? What if Devon, Ashley and Ben were the final three and the twist helped Chrissy who was the 4th person. I think the objection to this twist has a lot more to do with people not liking Ben than it does with the twist itself.

Nope. I object to the twist, not who it helped/hurt. And there are a lot of people on this board who have said, multiple times, that they would have been fine with a Ben win without the twist. 

I joked on Twitter that the only was I would have been okay with this twist if it was applied during Phillipines, but honestly I wouldn't have wanted Malcolm to win like this either, and I was devastated when he went out at 4. 

[SuburbanHangSuite]

18 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

He dug and dug and dug while they did...nothing. So smug, so entitled, so self-assured that one of them had it in the bag, Chrissy most of all, that they sat on their collective asses while Ben dug and dug and dug some more. 

I didn't really know how much I was pulling for Ben until this episode but this really encompasses why I'm glad he won.  I really can't stand Chrissy and nothing made me happier than watching Ben with his Oscar-worthy acting skills when Chrissy was crowing about her "two-fer" with her fake idol.  The fact that they were content to chill at camp and sleep in is more than enough for me to be happy about a Ben win.

I was a little sorry that Devon didn't reach the end because he seems like such a nice guy.  Not a hint of bitterness about being the one who needed to beat Ben--he welcomed the challenge.  That's bad-ass when there's a million dollars on the line.   If I ever respected Ryan's game that went out the window when he admitted to being basically useless around camp.  Dude, maybe you can't crack a coconut but you can't fetch water or firewood?  Bullshit.  You deserved to lose--social game ain't enough.

[amazingracefan]

17 hours ago, fishcakes said:

 I don't think getting immunity for yourself and for another person of your choosing is a disadvantage.

This is why having complete control of who the other two are in the final is a bit boring for me.  At least this way one place can still be fought out.

The problem to me isn't actually whether a big player gets to the final (don't we want that?  A tighter vote), it's actually that the goat automatically gets to the final, when ideally they should have to compete to earn a place.  Most people would want the most competitive final possible.

[Eolivet]

On 12/22/2017 at 1:53 PM, tessat said:

People are complaining about Ben being given all these advantages or help and the same could be said for Chrissy. You can go back and rewatch the episode on CBS and stop when they show each person's letters if you want to.

I think others have said it, but they confirmed on Rob's podcast that they were allowed to have certain letters upside down.

And after listening to that podcast, I feel a little differently about the twist. They believe it screwed Devon, not Chrissy, out of a win. So, if Chrissy wouldn't have won anyway, and Devon had the opportunity to get himself to the final 3 (by, yes, participating in an extremely unfair challenge he didn't know about), that sort of changes things for me. So, (according to these people) there was nothing Chrissy could've done to win. And Devon had his opportunity to save himself and couldn't, and it cost him a million dollars. I still feel horrible for Devon, but because he had the chance to fight and he lost, I feel ... less bad, if that makes any sense?

There would be something so unfair about winning at final 4, being the presumptive winner and having your win "taken" from you by some guy who you were going to vote out. But knowing that, at least according to the Survivor podcast/reporter world (after the fact, but still), that that was a million-dollar fire Devon failed to make ... I don't know. That's literally having your fate in your own hands, even if you didn't know about it going in.

[fishcakes]

I do think Devon would have beaten Chrissy, but it's hard for me to think he got screwed because he just wasn't a good player. His moves were mostly emotional and not strategic, he flipped on almost everyone he'd ever been allied with (Lauren is the only person he didn't flip on and that's probably just because he never got the chance), but he'd be up on his high horse about anyone he thought wasn't trustworthy. And the idea that he and Ryan and Chrissy had this tight alliance and wanted to all go to the end together and TPTB unfairly ruined the plans they worked so hard for is so ridiculous to me because he'd already flipped away from Ryan and then back to him. If the game had been a couple of days longer, he might have flipped back to Ben. That was his game: make alliance, get panties in bunch, flip.

Really, if the final twist was bringing back Katrina with the sole survivor being determined by a swimming contest, I still wouldn't say any of the other 17 got screwed because no one was good enough to be able to say they deserved to win more than anyone else. They were all terrible, so while certain outcomes were slightly more palatable to me than others, in the final analysis I don't really care which terrible player ended up winning.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, tessat said:

There are plenty of people to pick from each year without shopping around for production's idea of the ideal contestant. As we saw - Chrissy tried out 16 yrs before being selected

I think Chrissy is the exception, though.  They said they started recruiting way back when because their applicant pool was nearly all white people who'd been on other reality shows.  They didn't say this but I'm assuming the applicants are also more often like Dan Foley and Ryan Ulrich than like Chrissy, too... not great to look at and not very interesting to watch or very interesting overall, as people. 

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, fishcakes said:

I still wouldn't say any of the other 17 got screwed because no one was good enough to be able to say they deserved to win more than anyone else. They were all terrible ...

I think this is why I got over this new twist so quickly. These people all sucked, so who cares really. If there had been better players and/or more likable people and they were blindsided by this twist I would probably be more pissed. I mean for like a week until I forgot about it until it was brought up again on this board during the next season lol.

[green]

12 hours ago, amazingracefan said:

This is why having complete control of who the other two are in the final is a bit boring for me.  At least this way one place can still be fought out.

The problem to me isn't actually whether a big player gets to the final (don't we want that?  A tighter vote), it's actually that the goat automatically gets to the final, when ideally they should have to compete to earn a place.  Most people would want the most competitive final possible.

No, not at all.  I want the alliance that struggled to get to the final three to get to the final three.  I want them to get out a strong person because this is what setting up a winning strategy is all about.  The outlier person is often -- like this year -- someone who made themselves the outlier too.  I agree the goat goes to the final three this way for sure.

9 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think Chrissy is the exception, though.  They said they started recruiting way back when because their applicant pool was nearly all white people who'd been on other reality shows.  They didn't say this but I'm assuming the applicants are also more often like Dan Foley and Ryan Ulrich than like Chrissy, too... not great to look at and not very interesting to watch or very interesting overall, as people. 

No, just no.  There are thousands and thousands who apply.  And if they didn't restrict Afro-Americans to a token two most season they would maybe get more applicants.  They and other minority groups know they are not welcome on these CBS reality shows including (sadly) The Amazing Race and (who cares, it is crap) Big Brother.  The casting of these shows basically tells the African-American community to not bother to apply.

If they want more diversity in applying then just have some intern assigned to go to sites skewed to various ethnic and racial interests and post there inviting applicants.  It is called reaching out and you can basically do it for free, duh.  In the old days local CBS affiliates went into various neighborhoods with their tech gear to make interview "tapes" etc.  That has stopped now too.  So a show like Survivor goes out of it's way to discourage minority applications.

Basically what it comes down to as well is a lot of the people in these casting agencies have friends working in the biz as part of some agency representing mactors and the fix is in ... year after year after year.

Edited December 24, 2017 by green

[fishcakes]

57 minutes ago, green said:

I want the alliance that struggled to get to the final three to get to the final three.  I want them to get out a strong person because this is what setting up a winning strategy is all about. 

I would agree with that in general, but in this season, I wouldn't say it's even remotely true that Chrissy, Ryan, and Devon struggled to get to the F3 or that they set up a winning strategy. They reminded Ben over and over and as nastily as they could that he was their target, and their entire plan was, "if he doesn't win immunity, we'll vote him out." That's not a strategy; that's just wishful thinking. Even after it was clear that he was relentless about searching for idols and good at finding them, they couldn't even be bothered to stick close to him to try to prevent it; instead they would lie in the shelter and disparagingly say that he wasn't going to find one. They didn't try to use any actual strategy, to pretend to be in an alliance with him to lull him into a false sense of security and then blindside him, they didn't account for the possibility that he might have an idol and do a split vote; they just assumed and hoped he didn't as he dictated which of their allies was going to be voted out three times in a row. By the time Chrissy decided to try to trick him with the dead idol, that was after he'd already searched all night and found one and also after she, Devon, and Mike had left him alone all afternoon with only Ryan, who was barely ambulatory, to keep an eye on him. Chrissy was able to protect herself by winning immunities, but Ryan and Devon are just lucky that Ben didn't target them. I give Chrissy credit for at least being good in challenges, but their strategy for getting rid of Ben did not exist. Not that Ben displayed any aptitude for strategy either, but with the competition he had, he didn't have to.

[green]

6 hours ago, green said:

Have no idea what happened.  Wasn't posting something new.  Sorry.

Edited December 24, 2017 by green

[amazingracefan]

7 hours ago, fishcakes said:

I would agree with that in general, but in this season, I wouldn't say it's even remotely true that Chrissy, Ryan, and Devon struggled to get to the F3 or that they set up a winning strategy. They reminded Ben over and over and as nastily as they could that he was their target, and their entire plan was, "if he doesn't win immunity, we'll vote him out." That's not a strategy; that's just wishful thinking. Even after it was clear that he was relentless about searching for idols and good at finding them, they couldn't even be bothered to stick close to him to try to prevent it; instead they would lie in the shelter and disparagingly say that he wasn't going to find one. They didn't try to use any actual strategy, to pretend to be in an alliance with him to lull him into a false sense of security and then blindside him, they didn't account for the possibility that he might have an idol and do a split vote; they just assumed and hoped he didn't as he dictated which of their allies was going to be voted out three times in a row. By the time Chrissy decided to try to trick him with the dead idol, that was after he'd already searched all night and found one and also after she, Devon, and Mike had left him alone all afternoon with only Ryan, who was barely ambulatory, to keep an eye on him. Chrissy was able to protect herself by winning immunities, but Ryan and Devon are just lucky that Ben didn't target them. I give Chrissy credit for at least being good in challenges, but their strategy for getting rid of Ben did not exist. Not that Ben displayed any aptitude for strategy either, but with the competition he had, he didn't have to.

He got rid of Lauren when they wouldn't, though she didn't vote for him on the jury.

[tessat]

11 hours ago, green said:

No, not at all.  I want the alliance that struggled to get to the final three to get to the final three.  I want them to get out a strong person because this is what setting up a winning strategy is all about.  The outlier person is often -- like this year -- someone who made themselves the outlier too.  I agree the goat goes to the final three this way for sure.

No, just no.  There are thousands and thousands who apply.  And if they didn't restrict Afro-Americans to a token two most season they would maybe get more applicants.  They and other minority groups know they are not welcome on these CBS reality shows including (sadly) The Amazing Race and (who cares, it is crap) Big Brother.  The casting of these shows basically tells the African-American community to not bother to apply.

If they want more diversity in applying then just have some intern assigned to go to sites skewed to various ethnic and racial interests and post there inviting applicants.  It is called reaching out and you can basically do it for free, duh.  In the old days local CBS affiliates went into various neighborhoods with their tech gear to make interview "tapes" etc.  That has stopped now too.  So a show like Survivor goes out of it's way to discourage minority applications.

Basically what it comes down to as well is a lot of the people in these casting agencies have friends working in the biz as part of some agency representing mactors and the fix is in ... year after year after year.

I'd love to read the article that says that minority groups are not welcome. I've watched reality shows for years - and have seen white, black, yellow and red faces on all these shows. Being whites make up 77% or so of the population - you'd expect to see more whites than any other race on these shows. I've always thought that they always make sure to include every race and religion just so the PC police can not condemn them for this or that. 

If anything - that's what I hate most - being forced to continually listen to a contestant's story ( like Ben's ) because it's what's being focused on at the time. I loved Ben - but I didn't need to hear about PTSD every time they showed his face - just like I didn't have to hear about the transgender issue last year. I'm here for social entertainment - not to be made to feel good or bad about myself depending about how to feel about the current wave of social justice.

[JudyObscure]

7 minutes ago, tessat said:

I'm here for social entertainment - not to be made to feel good or bad about myself depending about how to feel about the current wave of social justice.

I agree, I don't mind a contestant  "raising awareness" about a disease, condition or state of being, so long as they don't beat it to death or turn it into "if this person makes it to the final three he/she will win, for sure."   Once they've set up that sort of person with an issue, then it's no longer an even game, but simply a chance to give a million dollars to someone who is deemed more needy than the others.

Apart from losing any sort of fair competition for the others it's not really possible to judge who is most worthy.  The people with the biggest problems and most debilitating diseases are not able to go on Survivor.  Even the show's brag of "raising awareness," is almost laughable because they've consistently chosen the in diseases of the moment.  First it was Aids, then cancer, last year transgender issues and this year PTSD which the Wounded Warrior had several widely televised PSA's about last year.  These were all hot topics who most people were very well aware of already. 

We can't really know who has the most need.  As Winston pointed out Ben has a good job and is healthy enough to do it.  Devon hinted that he has to support his mother and sister.  Lauren has a very iffy job that is dependent on the whims of mother nature.  Any season might have a castaway with a family member at home with schizophrenia or some other disease that far from being on trend, can not even be openly talked about.

[Guest]

Good point.  Lauren's a single mother but her run wasn't a PSA at all.  I'm not sure it was mentioned more than once or twice in passing.  

The mactors were the worst before recruiting.  Remember how every other woman was in pharmaceutical sales?  Perfectly lovely job but it's given to the most attractive, outgoing people who love capitalizing on their looks -- e.g., society's mactors.  Now they go out and find people of varying professions.  

There's an article out there from CBS reality casting about how before Cook Islands, Survivor was criticized for being too white, so that spurred that season of four tribes split by race, so a 25% 'white' cast.  They couldn't do that without recruiting, they said.  At least not without it being all reality tv vets and mactors or people they deemed too dull to watch.  I have no reason to not believe them.  I'm sure they spend tons on recruiting.  So if there's a great pool of applicants, it doesn't make sense why they'd bother.  But the grassy knoll folks seem to never be convinced otherwise, and vice versa, so it's all a futile discussion, I think.  

[peachmangosteen]

11 hours ago, fishcakes said:

They reminded Ben over and over and as nastily as they could that he was their target ...

Did they? I've seen it said a few times that they were so nasty and horrible to Ben and I just truly do not remember it. Devon was kinda dickish to Ben at times, as he was to Chirssy and Ryan when he joined Ashley/Ben/Lauren to blindside them, but I wouldn't call it nasty. It was just him being kind of an asshole, but like the entire F5 were assholes about 75% of the time. Ryan never said or did anything nasty or even asshole-ish to Ben. Chrissy is kind of just naturally an asshole, but I don't think she was any worse to Ben than anyone else. If anything Ben was nasty with her after she found out he betrayed her and maybe they were both nasty to each other at F5/F4. But honestly maybe I'm not remembering it. I already barely remember what happened in the finale!

[kikaha]

On 12/23/2017 at 7:11 AM, Paws said:

Yes, it would have been tainted no matter who won with it, because there was no vote, and players were not told of it early in the game. 

Suppose they had been told earlier.  How would that have changed things?  Not sure it would at all: every time Ben looked vulnerable, he found idols. 

[fishcakes]

9 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I've seen it said a few times that they were so nasty and horrible to Ben and I just truly do not remember it.

Yeah, I thought they were pretty nasty, but you're right that we didn't see anything from Ryan towards Ben. All of the, "you're a liar, you're disloyal, you can't be trusted" stuff is par for the course in any Survivor season, but Chrissy and Devon just seemed to make it so personal and ugly when they said it, with the spitting fire and narrow eyes, both at camp and at TC. It was especially rich coming from Devon who was the least loyal and trustworthy person out there and who was planning to vote Ben out before Ben turned the tables on him. I also thought the attempted and completely lame fakeout with the dead idol was nasty because they were so obviously gloating about having supposedly found the HII and showing mock sympathy and concern that he shouldn't "look too hard," as Chrissy smugly put the idol around her neck, then laughing about how sad he looked when they thought they'd fooled him. Mostly it was the whole ganging up on him thing that I found objectionable. They didn't ostracize Ben, but otherwise they did basically the same thing the Worlds Apart assholes did to Mike, and it turned out just as well for them.

[Guest]

I'm not sure if it's nicer to lie and say, "No, you're not on the bottom!  We're targeting Ryan."  But regardless, it only works once.  Pretty early on it was clear from the voting that he was their target so why hide it after that? 

Though they did come across a little condescending and superior at times.  Things did seem to cross somewhat into the personal there.  Which I can understand, if you feel betrayed.  I don't recall why Ben was on the bottom or if it was some perceived or real betrayal but it seems like that's the usual reason. 

I do recall King Ben doing his share of acting bossy and superior when he was on top, though I suppose it was over others besides Ryan and Chrissy then.

[violet and green]

12 hours ago, amazingracefan said:

He got rid of Lauren when they wouldn't, though she didn't vote for him on the jury.

Lauren did vote for him on the jury. She also said something nice about hoping his win made a difference to other vets with PTSD (I paraphrase wildly, but that was the gist of it).

[peachmangosteen]

8 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I  do recall King Ben doing his share of acting bossy and superior when he was on top ...

That's probably why I'm not seeing Chrissy and Devon as being overly nasty with Ben since he was also a nasty dick to most people.

I will say that Devon was a real asshole after the JP blindside and I really thought that was gonna fuck him over. No one seemed to care though lol.

Edited December 24, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[Paws]

11 hours ago, kikaha said:

Suppose they had been told earlier.  How would that have changed things?  Not sure it would at all: every time Ben looked vulnerable, he found idols. 

If they knew this at or near the  beginning of the game, strategically it would have changed everything. You would have seen people sitting in the cold without a fire for fear that they’d show off “threatening” fire making skills.  We may not have ended up with the same final 4 at all. Every single person went Into the game expecting that they’d be able to vote at every round, including F4.

[jay741982]

On 12/20/2017 at 11:38 PM, lyric said:

 

On 12/21/2017 at 1:17 AM, BTBAM310 said:

I've watched every season but 2, and with that twist "advantage" to help Ben, i'm done.  Never watching another episode again. That's like something the NFL would do if they didn't get a desirable Super Bowl matchup - rig it to where the more popular team wins (see SB XL, where they helped their beloved Steelers beat the Seahawks).

Or last year where The Pats came back like they did to beat The Falcons( I hate Pats and Steelers both). I agree with ya about them helping the Steelers against Seahawks that year.

[Jextella]

18 hours ago, TVFan1 said:

If this fire challenge never existed, Devon would have most definitely made the final 3. Who knows, he also could have won this season. Devon winning would have been a much better ending to such a bad season.

I was team-Ben for the win but Chrissy was right there with him.  I rewatched the season to see if maybe I missed something about Chrissy to be sure Ben really deserved the win.  Plus I'm working on a really tedious and boring project and it provided good background!

Both Ben and Chrissy played good social games. I'd call them equal on this.  Chrissy went on a run with challenges, and Ben went on a run with hidden immunity idols.  Both had immunity about the same number of times - or close to it.  I'd call that a draw as well.  

What sets them apart is that Ben started making big and successful moves far earlier in the game than Chrissy.  Chrissy coasted for a long time and really didn't come out swinging until after she was blind-sided at tribal a few times.  

I think Ben deserved the win.  If Devon had gone to final 3, I could see him winning over Chrissy.  He played from the beginning and made several big moves.  He didn't have the immunity challenge run that Chrissy had, but he played hard, and successfully longer than she did.  He also had a really great social game.  I don't think Devon would have won up against Ben, though.

This season started out slowly, but it ramped up quickly post-merge.  I enjoyed it more than many.

Edited December 25, 2017 by Jextella

[IslandGirl]

On 12/21/2017 at 0:41 PM, amazingracefan said:

I still don't understand why Chrissy and Ryan voted out Mike instead of Devon, was that really sensible?

 

On 12/21/2017 at 0:50 PM, tessat said:

I didn't think so but they decided to honor the finale three deal they made I guess. Dumb move on their part as if I was playing I want to take the least liked or the ones who did the least during the game. Jury members can still be mad at you if you orchestrated their getting voted off - but when you are sitting next to people that did nothing they look at your game play. Just like Paul in BB - he had everyone else do his dirty work and then expected the prize to be handed to him - people didn't respect the way he played the game and handed it to the other guy.

So late to the party, but I think the reason they voted Dr. Mike out instead of Devon was to help get rid of Ben; they thought Devon could beat Ben in the immunity challenges...

[Jextella]

8 hours ago, IslandGirl said:

So late to the party, but I think the reason they voted Dr. Mike out instead of Devon was to help get rid of Ben; they thought Devon could beat Ben in the immunity challenges...

 

This but there could be more.  Many have shared that in interviews with other contestants, Mike was playing a good game.  He just got a less-than edit.  Clearly the Survivor production team wanted this to be a Ben vs. Chrissy showdown but Dr. Mike and Devon were definitely players.

[henripootel]

On 12/22/2017 at 0:56 PM, ProfCrash said:

Any way, every journalist and podcaster who is out there has mentioned the Standards and Practice folks out there. They are there to insure that the game is fair and sticks to whatever plan they have developed or approve changes that are made for whatever reason.

This has come up before so I'll keep it brief - there's essentially no reason to suspect that the presence of the S&P folks means that production keeps it's fingers off the scale for everything.  If production decided that the Game Show rules in any way apply to reality shows like Survivor (a very big IF - nobody wants to test this in court, and I mean nobody), then they could well have S&P there to monitor the only part of the game that is purported to be a game of 'skill or luck' - the challenges.  Jeffy himself has made somewhat odd claims along these lines.  I remember reading (long ago) an interview where somebody essentially asked if they rig things and Jeffy's answer was 'oh no, we have S&P out there monitoring the challenges.'  That's not what they asked, and I thought it strange that he'd frame it that way. 

There was another piece written by Linda Holmes back in the day, who convincingly argued that even if the game show rules apply to reality shows, there's no reason why they'd apply to the entire show.  In other words, the challenges might be on the up and up while the actual winner of the show might be (a least partially) predetermined, and it'd be all legal as church.  Just saying 'S&P is in some way involved' is not the same as saying 'production does nothing to help some players over others'.  

After years of viewing, I'm kinda convinced that this is correct.  I'd bet anything that the challenges are mostly on the up and up (with a few caveats) but that production has ways of helping out players they want to win.  The many HIIs Ben found more than raised my eyebrows, but the final 'advantage' seemed anything but.  It actually hobbled Chrissy's ability to do what she would most certainly have done - gotten rid of Ben.  If anything, the advantage was for Ben (and only Ben), as, had anyone else won, they'd have gotten rid of Ben too.  It put Ben's fate back into his own hands when 3 times out of 4, he's dead.  Had Ben won, it would have stymied his own ability to eliminate his biggest opponent, but this raises the question of whether Ben even had one.  Was there any reason to believe that Devon would have beaten him for votes?  If not, this final twist seems to have had one purpose and one purpose only, to throw Ben a lifeline.  Call it conspiracy theory if you want, but there's no valid reason to conclude production can't do this kinda thing and good reason to suspect that they do when it suits them.  On some reality shows producer interference isn't even a question, but there's always a few who think Survivor is the exception, pure as snow.  I'm guessing not.  

Edited December 26, 2017 by henripootel

[Hanahope]

I don't mind the final twist in and of itself.  But combined that with 3 HIs in a row, its just ridiculous.  Ben is the perfect example that someone who is skilled/lucky at finding idols and can make fire can literally skate to the end if the tribe doesn't vote him out at F9.  A tribe really should have at least one opportunity to have a straight up vote, no idols or other twists, to make a social/strategy game decision during the F7-F4, imo.  

So, if an idol is played at F7, go ahead hide a new one.  If its played again at F6, then don't hide a new one.  If its not played at F6, then at least the tribe had the ability to vote them out at F6.

[marys1000]

9 hours ago, henripootel said:

This has come up before so I'll keep it brief - there's essentially no reason to suspect that the presence of the S&P folks means that production keeps it's fingers off the scale for everything.  If production decided that the Game Show rules in any way apply to reality shows like Survivor (a very big IF - nobody wants to test this in court, and I mean nobody), then they could well have S&P there to monitor the only part of the game that is purported to be a game of 'skill or luck' - the challenges.  Jeffy himself has made somewhat odd claims along these lines.  I remember reading (long ago) an interview where somebody essentially asked if they rig things and Jeffy's answer was 'oh no, we have S&P out there monitoring the challenges.'  That's not what they asked, and I thought it strange that he'd frame it that way. 

There was another piece written by Linda Holmes back in the day, who convincingly argued that even if the game show rules apply to reality shows, there's no reason why they'd apply to the entire show.  In other words, the challenges might be on the up and up while the actual winner of the show might be (a least partially) predetermined, and it'd be all legal as church.  Just saying 'S&P is in some way involved' is not the same as saying 'production does nothing to help some players over others'.  

After years of viewing, I'm kinda convinced that this is correct.  I'd bet anything that the challenges are mostly on the up and up (with a few caveats) but that production has ways of helping out players they want to win.  The many HIIs Ben found more than raised my eyebrows, but the final 'advantage' seemed anything but.  It actually hobbled Chrissy's ability to do what she would most certainly have done - gotten rid of Ben.  If anything, the advantage was for Ben (and only Ben), as, had anyone else won, they'd have gotten rid of Ben too.  It put Ben's fate back into his own hands when 3 times out of 4, he's dead.  Had Ben won, it would have stymied his own ability to eliminate his biggest opponent, but this raises the question of whether Ben even had one.  Was there any reason to believe that Devon would have beaten him for votes?  If not, this final twist seems to have had one purpose and one purpose only, to throw Ben a lifeline.  Call it conspiracy theory if you want, but there's no valid reason to conclude production can't do this kinda thing and good reason to suspect that they do when it suits them.  On some reality shows producer interference isn't even a question, but there's always a few who think Survivor is the exception, pure as snow.  I'm guessing not.  

The flip of production wanting Ben to win is not wanting Chrissy to win.  I hardly think that Probsts seeming preference for alpha male wins accounts for this.  And at what point do they make this decision to rig the game for Ben?  Right off the bat?  

[henripootel]

Just now, marys1000 said:

The flip of production wanting Ben to win is not wanting Chrissy to win.  I hardly think that Probsts seeming preference for alpha male wins accounts for this.  And at what point do they make this decision to rig the game for Ben?  Right off the bat?  

I'd be lying if I said I'd been paying that close attention, but it seemed to me that it wasn't so much Ben (although he was personable enough, vet and all) as 'an obvious winner'.  Even the edit made it clear that Ben was doomed for the last several votes, but that's boring.  I think Ben was simply the recipient of an 'underdog arc', where the guy who can't possibly win does so, by pluck, determination, and a bit of luck.  Which in Survivor meant (I think) a few helpful nods towards places where HIIs could be found, and a bit of last-minute 'twisting' to give him a fighting chance when he was toast toast toast.  #bigmoves, #hugeblindside, #thisSeasonsBeenDullTimeForSomeMassaging. 

[tessat]

Reality is anything but reality these days. Even while watching the Amazing Race - you'll have a couple of teams out of the running as it's taken them so long to get to the pit stop - but low and behold - the next day - the top teams leave only to have the last teams catch up with them as the location of their next challenge doesn't open until 9 or the planes don't take off until the next morning. So production to a point does influence the games. DWTS is no different  - you have someone who is just awful - but stays because of supposed viewer voting. I've always wondered how real that is.  I don't see the fans of the likes of Jerry Springer and Snoop Dog actually watching a show like DWTS - just saying.

[green]

12 minutes ago, tessat said:

Reality is anything but reality these days. Even while watching the Amazing Race - you'll have a couple of teams out of the running as it's taken them so long to get to the pit stop - but low and behold - the next day - the top teams leave only to have the last teams catch up with them as the location of their next challenge doesn't open until 9 or the planes don't take off until the next morning. So production to a point does influence the games. DWTS is no different  - you have someone who is just awful - but stays because of supposed viewer voting. I've always wondered how real that is.  I don't see the fans of the likes of Jerry Springer and Snoop Dog actually watching a show like DWTS - just saying.

The Amazing Race doesn't suddenly dictate to the world's airlines to change their flight schedules to benefit their favorite teams in the middle of the race though.  They know flight schedules in advance of the Race starting but they don't dicker with those schedules once the Race starts NOR do they have the power to do so since they don;t own the airlines of the world. 

It is the switching in mid-stream due to production being able to change stuff along the way to favor a contestant that is the problem.  Which is what Survivor can do because it ropes off a small piece of the world that it has total control over.

Survivor went blatantly too far this time making their in game "tweaks" very obvious this time around with the result that many if not most people think the winner was tainted this season because of it.  There is no way they can walk back that perception at this point even if it wasn't true though I think it darn well was true myself.  They managed to break the fourth wall of reality TV big time even for casual fans which did their franchise no favor.

[ProfCrash]

14 hours ago, henripootel said:

After years of viewing, I'm kinda convinced that this is correct.  I'd bet anything that the challenges are mostly on the up and up (with a few caveats) but that production has ways of helping out players they want to win.  The many HIIs Ben found more than raised my eyebrows, but the final 'advantage' seemed anything but.  It actually hobbled Chrissy's ability to do what she would most certainly have done - gotten rid of Ben.  If anything, the advantage was for Ben (and only Ben), as, had anyone else won, they'd have gotten rid of Ben too.  It put Ben's fate back into his own hands when 3 times out of 4, he's dead.  Had Ben won, it would have stymied his own ability to eliminate his biggest opponent, but this raises the question of whether Ben even had one.  Was there any reason to believe that Devon would have beaten him for votes?  If not, this final twist seems to have had one purpose and one purpose only, to throw Ben a lifeline.  Call it conspiracy theory if you want, but there's no valid reason to conclude production can't do this kinda thing and good reason to suspect that they do when it suits them.  On some reality shows producer interference isn't even a question, but there's always a few who think Survivor is the exception, pure as snow.  I'm guessing not.  

Eh This entire season had advantages that players were forced to use. Ryan had to give away immunity at the first tribal. Jessica had to take someones vote at a tribal. Lauren had to use her advantage at a specific tribal. It was meant to be a season of twists so the final twist fits the season. And there have been players who found lots of hidden idols before, so Ben's run is not that much of an outlier. 

[henripootel]

1 hour ago, green said:

The Amazing Race doesn't suddenly dictate to the world's airlines to change their flight schedules to benefit their favorite teams in the middle of the race though. 

Funny you should say that - the most egregious manipulation I remember from the AR concerned exactly this.  Can't remember the season but they were down to 3 teams, and one team managed to make it to a flight to the final destination which would have given them an unbeatable lead.  There was still stuff to do there but they'd have been like 12 hours or something, which is hard even to correct with the usual bunching. If the edit is to be believed (a mighty big if) the team celebrated as the plane pulled away from the gate, and the next team arrived just in time to watch it go.  Then for some strange reason, the plane returned to the gate for ... reasons.  So it was either bullshit editing of an event that never happened, or that flight did something I've never seen a commercial flight do.  I mean I've had them go back to the gate after an extended weather delay, but that took hours.  It really stank of producer interference but I just can't imagine how they'd have gotten an airline to do this.  Hard to be sure - always seemed like the AR tries hard to keep their manipulations subtle.  Unlike ...

1 hour ago, green said:

Survivor went blatantly too far this time making their in game "tweaks" very obvious this time around with the result that many if not most people think the winner was tainted this season because of it.

I have to agree, they're not really trying all that hard to hide their machinations.  I've always assumed that they were leaving out stuff and whatnot to tell the story they wanted to tell but it was way later that I was pretty sure they're picking winners.  My only real question now is how far they'll go.  I don't think they stuffed the ballot box for Ben but I do think they wanted him in the final 3 real bad.  I doubt they fixed the fire task for him but I'd bet they knew damn well that Ben would be good at it.  Also think that if and when Survivor does start flat-out stuffing ballot boxes we'll be able to tell, and it'll be the end of the show.  Outright scripting always leaves a distinct odor so let's hope they don't go that far.

Eh This entire season had advantages that players were forced to use. Ryan had to give away immunity at the first tribal. Jessica had to take someones vote at a tribal. Lauren had to use her advantage at a specific tribal. It was meant to be a season of twists so the final twist fits the season. And there have been players who found lots of hidden idols before, so Ben's run is not that much of an outlier. 

Unpopular opinion but I thought those time-limit advantages might be a step in the right direction.  Unfortunately, as in the past, they didn't really amount to much. 

And you're right, Ben's run wasn't wholly unprecedented but it was a bit out there.  What really put me off though was the attempt to show that Ben actually deserved all his 'luck' because he was pretty much the only one out there 'hustling'.  I recall that they've tried this before, implying that one character was doing all the work, only to hear from other contestants later 'oh, we were out there looking too, they just didn't show it.'  When they start trying to convince me that absolutely nobody else had any idea so-and-so had an idol, making for a HUGE REVEAL, I wonder what really happened.  

Edited December 26, 2017 by henripootel