Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Featherhat]

Luck be a Lady was the one where Iris sat in on a funeral in her wedding dress, barged past the casket whilst complimenting the wood to the relatives, climbed up and covered the dead guys picture, demanded the strange priest marry them there and then and then told him to "snap out of it" when he became seriously ill. It's safe to say someone thinks bridezillas are hilarious. She had reasons to be paranoid but still.

[Sakura12]

I was kind of liking Ray and Zari. She seems like a good match for him, she's a little darker then him and a rule breaker but has a tech background like him and so far doesn't have any ex drama. Which is what Ray needs to avoid. With Sara I really don't want Ray to get another of Oliver's exes. Oliver and Sara really need to step away from sharing any kind of partners. 

[leopardprint]

1. It makes no sense for Iris to be a bridezilla. Everyone knows Barry has had a Pinterest board devoted to their wedding since he hit puberty (allegedly). 

2. An excellent point by twitter, not only did they kidnap Diggle to marry them without asking, he wasn't even invited to the wedding in the first place. Diggle is too good for these people. 

Edited December 6, 2017 by leopardprint

[BkWurm1]

12 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

I think it makes Iris seem petty and superficial tbh.Because actual nazis interrupted her wedding and she and Felicity spent episodes fighting them and protecting each other,you'd think she would be less concerned about wedding etiquette at a ceremony in a park after a funeral that she wouldn't even have if Felicity hadn't suggested Digg.

And frankly, if saying the vows and getting to the "I now pronounce you" part uninterrupted was such a big freaking deal to Iris, then there was nothing stopping her and Barry from still heading over to the Justice of Peace and doing it over.  

12 hours ago, WindofChange said:

I don't understand how there can be a spotlight when there's literally no one else around? Kinda moot if you ask me.

 

 

Exactly.  The only spotlight stolen was the Olicity fandom usurping Westallen and that's not on any of the characters, that's the Arrowverse producers showing priority of one over the other.  

12 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think this is probably true. I think Iris' frustration was more than just at Oliver/Felicity, and she just happened to take it out on them. Her wedding gets interrupted, then her official wedding isn't what she planned, then their honeymoon is interrupted by Ralph, and then the whole gift debacle. She was complaining about all of the gifts, so it wasn't just about Olicity's gift. I'm sure she is grateful for what they sent over. 

Yeah, Iris really did seem cranky the whole episode.  She was even annoyed at Barry for not using his superspeed as much as he usually did.  Maybe married life isn't agreeing with her as much as she expected.  

 

11 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Also, one more thing about the Flash episode. It wasn't just Iris who suffered from Mean Girl writing. Ralph, Cisco, and Harry all made jabs as Caitlin/Killer Frost, which was incredibly mean. 

This section of the episode really struck me.  This split personality thing (which also has come out of no where since last year she never lost her memory) really is bothering me.  I feel like Caitlin is being abused.  How awful to have all this stuff happen to you and by you with no say in it?  It's cruel and more than a bit icky when you factor in the kind of things KF seems up for that Caitlin would not want to be a part of.  And again, why is this something that only happens to her?  

It was pretty terrible that the villain was the only one sympathetic and supportive of her feelings.  

The Flash seems to go out its way to create icky situations.  And that's not even talking about how dumb Barry was to just stand there to be caught with the dead body when he could have cleaned it all up before the police ever broke in.  

[leopardprint]

2 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

And that's not even talking about how dumb Barry was to just stand there to be caught with the dead body when he could have cleaned it all up before the police ever broke in.  

I don't know why you would expect that from Barry, it's not like he's a crime scene investigator and should know exactly what the police would do in that situation. 

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

The Flash seems to go out its way to create icky situations.  And that's not even talking about how dumb Barry was to just stand there to be caught with the dead body when he could have cleaned it all up before the police ever broke in.  

It also doesn’t make much sense that when DeVoe revealed that he was there with Barry’s family that Barry just stayed put instead of taking one second and running back to the West house. And then was like “Don’t you hurt them!” And then did nothing to make sure he didn’t. 

Plotforce! So dumb. 

[Sakura12]

The treatment of Killer Frost is one of many reasons I gave up on the Flash. I read a review where they basically said Caitlin as a multiple personality disorder and it's treated like it's nothing. Her other personality is doing things without her knowledge. That is a big deal and not something that should just be waved off because KF helps them sometimes. 

I've seen a lot of people praise the DaVoe plot, however dumbing down all the characters to make him seem smarter is a terrible plot device. Changing your characters to fit your plot is such lazy writing. Barry does dumb things but he's not a dumb person nor is anyone on his team of Scientists. Yet they all had to act stupid and not believe Barry and fall for the villains manipulations because. I only caught that last minute or so of the Flash and all I saw as Barry standing over a dead body telling himself not to run. Why? He's supposed to be the fastest man alive, he should be able to clean everything up, take the body somewhere else, and have time to go to his family before the cops even break down the door. 

[Lady Calypso]

14 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

This section of the episode really struck me.  This split personality thing (which also has come out of no where since last year she never lost her memory) really is bothering me.  I feel like Caitlin is being abused.  How awful to have all this stuff happen to you and by you with no say in it?  It's cruel and more than a bit icky when you factor in the kind of things KF seems up for that Caitlin would not want to be a part of.  And again, why is this something that only happens to her?  

I hated that they played it off for laughs. Cisco didn't seem to understand that it wasn't just Ralph who hurt Caitlin's feelings? Him and Harry jumped in too. I hate that Caitlin only had Amunet who praised Caitlin's skills. Sometimes, the women get shafted and their skills are underappreciated. Ok, not that sometimes. I disliked that as much as how they wrote Iris at the beginning of the episode. Also, it's ridiculous that KF remembers everything that Caitlin does, while she remembers nothing that KF does. Even Harry seemed to understand that they were wrong with the Caitlin/KF teasing and got to talk to her about it. Cisco acted like he did nothing wrong and it was all Ralph's fault. 

Man, Cisco got on my nerves.

I guess, if Dominic is really still in his body, if he manages to come out alive, him and Caitlin will have something to bond over, with not having control of your own body. 

18 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Yeah, Iris really did seem cranky the whole episode.  She was even annoyed at Barry for not using his superspeed as much as he usually did.  Maybe married life isn't agreeing with her as much as she expected.  

Cranky is a good word to describe her. 

[quarks]

12 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I only caught that last minute or so of the Flash and all I saw as Barry standing over a dead body telling himself not to run. Why? 

the now infamous wedding present scene included a bit where Barry explained that he didn't need to use his powers as much anymore because he's now happy with Iris. (Roll with it!)  The ostensible reason for this was to show "character development."

The real reason, of course, is that Flash really, really wants to put Barry on trial for a murder he didn't commit. (Thus providing a contrast to Arrow, which at least so far doesn't seem to want to put Oliver on trial - legal trial - for crimes he did commit, but moving on.)  If Barry had run out with the dead body, no evidence, no trial.

More writing to reach a specific plot point, instead of thinking "what would this character do in this situation?"  Strongly contrasted with Legends of Tomorrow, which asked itself, "If Ray happened to be flying around in a stuffed animal pretending to be a god, what would he do? Oh, warn about the evils of global warming, of course."  I mean, yes, that entire scene was beyond ridiculous, but it worked because it was exactly the sort of thing Ray would do.  With Flash, we already know that just standing around is NOT the sort of thing that Barry would do, which is why that scene didn't work as well.

[Velocity23]

Tuesday ratings

Also Monday Finals

[insomniadreams88]

I just still don't get not liking getting an espresso machine as a gift. (Maybe they should have had Oliver and Felicity send something they'd obviously never use?) Do they like spending money at Jitters (since they go there all the time)? (Especially considering we don't even know if Iris makes any money. Is STAR Labs paying her? Is she actually still a reporter but they're not telling us that? Guess what, show? You could have used those couple lines to update us on Iris' job.) Does Barry like seeing he has a drink named after himself every day? Do they have an espresso machine at home they know will never break? 

[Midnight Lullaby]

If it was another show I’d say that behavior is a hint something important is bothering her and we will find out about that later, it will be a storyline and it will have a meaning..with the DCTV I never know what to think, LOL

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Trini said:

It hasn't been shown that iris is more bitter at Felicity. Plus, you expect nazis to act badly and ruin things. Not your friend/maid of honor. Not a fair comparison.

I think it's very fair comparison seeing as the only thing Iris commented on is Felicity, not the actual Nazis who destroyed her real wedding ceremony. 

Edited December 6, 2017 by Guest

[Sakura12]

16 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Tuesday ratings

Also Monday Finals

If that stays, I'm happy LoT went up in the demo. 

[Primal Slayer]

1 hour ago, leopardprint said:

1. It makes no sense for Iris to be a bridezilla. Everyone knows Barry has had a Pinterest board devoted to their wedding since he hit puberty (allegedly). 

2. An excellent point by twitter, not only did they kidnap Diggle to marry them without asking, he wasn't even invited to the wedding in the first place. Diggle is too good for these people. 

How do we know he wasn't invited? And his two best friends offered him up on a silver platter to do the honors. 

[apinknightmare]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

How do we know he wasn't invited? And his two best friends offered him up on a silver platter to do the honors. 

Why are we talking about Diggle like Oliver and Felicity somehow own him and can give Barry permission to do whatever he wants? Even if Oliver and Felicity were certain Diggle would be happy to marry him and Iris, that doesn’t mean Barry didn’t need to ask Diggle himself before taking off with him.

Also, I thought Oliver mentioned Diggle not being able to make it because he was injured?

[Starfish35]

From RJK at Spotted Ratings, unrounded preliminary numbers for last night.

Quote

The Flash ............................ 0.796 ... (0.814 ... 0.777)
Legends of Tomorrow ......... 0.559 ... (0.568 ... 0.550)

[Simba122504]

11 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I have a feeling we're close to them announcing Keiynan Lonsdale's joining LOT, especially with the reports of him filming for the show recently.

He might as well join LOT. CC should never be in trouble with two Flashes living there.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

The Flash is the highest rated show out of the entire Arrowverse.  They used the West-Allen wedding as the reason for the crossover.  The writers aren't trying to make West-Allen relevant, Flash is the most relevant show.  

I believe a sizeable portion of the audience couldn`t care less about the romances, either in the crossover or in general. I saw some reactions a la "that was worse than the Nazis" and some "squee, my ship" but also a good chunk of "well, two weddings, huh... but wasn`t the fight scene in the church awesome and that slow mo hero walk".

Sure, the WestAllen wedding was the plot device to propel the crossover but IMO the promotion was a tad too misleading here. Even I expected the couple and their wedding to be a focal point and the villains to crash it because of a specific beef with Barry/Iris. Meanwhile, they were only after a wedding guest because otherwise the x-over should logistically have taken place in Supergirl`s universe.    

The Flash as a show is not synonymous with WestAllen, one is more relevant than the other. And no matter how many times they have them say "we`re the Flash" on the show, to many viewers the Flash is the guy in the suit with the speedster powers. The love interest isn`t on the same level. It`s quite the same with Felicity. You would have a much harder time writing the lead characters out of the show than the female leads on Arrow and Flash. And the reverse is true on Supergirl. 

IMO the Flash writers have the tendency to hype their own stuff too much. It`s not enough the WestAllen is a cute couple, they have to be the gold standard, bestest ever. So their honour musn`t be besmirched. And I say that as someone who did think Felicity was rude to cut in right that moment. Either do it after one ceremony has finished or, even less awkwardly, clear it before Diggle even starts. At which point, WestAllen don`t have dibbs on Diggle in a park so that is fair game.

But same with Barry is the bestest, most moral hero who never kills and stupidly lets bad guys go, puts them back in play a la after Flashpoint with the Thawne remnant and so on. It`s okay to have feet of clay. I don`t need the dialogue to beat me over the head with how great something is, in fact, I prefer it does not. It was the exact same with "hashtag!feminism", that was downright embarassing.   

 

Right now I actually think the Legends have the moral highground. If they went "wow, our friend died, sacrificing himself for them and those fuckers get married right after his funeral", I would understand it. And in that case, egg on both couples` faces. But they (and their writers) are above that. I notice the Flash disfavourably that way because IMO they are the show that does digs against other shows. As if their writers and writing are so much better. 

Edited December 6, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Cleanqueen]

So not only did they delete their honeymoon scene but they made the episode after their wedding about shading another couple. If Flash or Iris fans thought the writers were being an ally to their disdain for the double wedding than they aren't thinking straight.

Let's say that the double wedding idea wasn't liked by both the shows, well then one show decided to give their couple a reception and the other decided releasing a deleted scene and having the bride be petty was the answer.

It's also sad that the one time they have Iris be petty or shady it's towards another woman who she comforted and consoled and helped saved the day with. It's also double sad that this episode was written by two female writers. The solution isn't more female writers int the writing room, it's more capable female writers in the writing room

[Lady Calypso]

2 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

It's also sad that the one time they have Iris be petty or shady it's towards another woman who she comforted and consoled and helped saved the day with. It's also double sad that this episode was written by two female writers. The solution isn't more female writers int the writing room, it's more capable female writers in the writing room

Actually, I had to look up the two writers for this episode, but the new Flash writer is a male. 

The sad thing is that there was a great moment in this same episode with Caitlin and Amunet, where the villain is praising the hero. It really does feel like two different writers wrote the episode. 

[thegirlsleuth]

I do think that the promo poster with Iris and Barry front and center set some expectations that the big love story would just be the two of them.  They could have had both couples doing the big heart eyes pose, Oliver and Felicity smaller in the background behind Iris and Barry, who were getting married, and that would have balanced some expectations and make the double wedding make sense.  But in the promo department's drive to not include any non-canon characters in the poster, which prevented any acknowledgement of Olicity, I think they might have created the impression that the only love story that mattered was WestAllen. Dinah was in the show for about 10 minutes, but Felicity and Alex, the two characters that had the interaction with almost everyone and who got major story lines weren't included (and Diggle's lack of inclusion in both the crossover and the poster just makes me sad).

I'm sorry that the Flash hasn't deepened their feminism beyond the hashtag variety.  Supergirl writes women better and Arrow doesn't provide consistent characterization for anyone, male or female, but there is a noticeable gap between the writing for men and the writing for women on the Flash. With the stuff that came out about Kreisberg, I do think his attitudes impacted how the Flash has written female characters, and it is my sincere hope that with him gone their writing for women gets better (although I don't know why I should care since I stopped watching after the finale of season 2 when Barry changed the timeline despite knowing what happened at the end of season one).

The other option in all this is that Berlanti is trying to create a ship war for buzz purposes.  I'm sure their twitter metrics are spiking as the two fandoms throw accusations at each other.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Oh Geeze. Bad enough of the reaction from media after last week, but now this? And the result is just not good. And it was so unnecessary. It's gotten too rough in here for me. I think I'll go over and just count  down the hours until Psych: The Movie premieres and continue to out-gif a fellow poster as we squee and jump with excitement until Shawn and Gus return to our screens.

[statsgirl]

The Flash is the highest rated --  among male viewers.

And if the Arrowverse EPs wanted Arrow to get a bump from the crossover, they shouldn't diss the Arrow characters on The Flash.

7 hours ago, Trini said:

I don't think there's hostility. The Flash hardly mentions Oliver, etc at all.(and vice versa with Arrow)

Any yet every time Oliver gets mentioned by anyone other than Barry (and Iris in terms of his attractiveness), it's to put Oliver down and prove Barry is the better man.  It's really annoying to anyone who like Arrow.

7 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

It can't be a coincidence that both sides of Firestorm leave the series within an episode of each other. 

Someone commented at TV Line that it was the cost of the CGI for Firestorm.  But if they're going to replace him with Wally, doesn't that cost too?

5 hours ago, ComicFan777 said:

Right or wrong, I would have expected Iris to understand since she went through the exact same thing - maybe a little empathy.

Poor Candice Patton; the Flash writers seem to hate Iris the way they write her.  Actually they seem to hate all female characters -- Caitlin's team, who is supposed to be in her side, puts her down and only the villain supports her; the native woman goes to jail while the museum which has been behaving illegally gets off scot-free and Ralph is a hero.  As a woman, it's incredibly off-putting to watch a show that still in 2017 keeps putting me down.

2 hours ago, leopardprint said:

2. An excellent point by twitter, not only did they kidnap Diggle to marry them without asking, he wasn't even invited to the wedding in the first place. Diggle is too good for these people. 

Far too good. 

If Diggle was invited (we have nothing to suggest it) and he didn't go because he was too ill to attend, then it makes it even worse that Barry kidnapped him because Barry wanted to be married Right. Now.

Unfortunately it is typical of The Flash as a show -- objectively what Barry did (not asking Diggle first before taking him and causing Diggle to be sick which Barry knew happens) was worse than what Felicity did but Barry gets all the praise and Felicity gets dissed.

[Primal Slayer]

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

Why are we talking about Diggle like Oliver and Felicity somehow own him and can give Barry permission to do whatever he wants? Even if Oliver and Felicity were certain Diggle would be happy to marry him and Iris, that doesn’t mean Barry didn’t need to ask Diggle himself before taking off with him.

Also, I thought Oliver mentioned Diggle not being able to make it because he was injured?

Because they did offer him up to marry WA, and I'm not giving Barry a pass but it isn't a one person issue. But it was something that both couples benefited from in the moment.

[lemotomato]

4 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Because they did offer him up to marry WA

"I know a guy" is all Felicity said. It's barely a suggestion. It's certainly not "Yeah, go ahead and grab our injured friend without telling him first and subject him to a travel method that makes him sick so you can get married right now."

[Midnight Lullaby]

She said “I think we know a guy that is ordained” which is suggesting a person they could go to and ask for help. That isn’t permission that you can’t even give over a person. Or if she said “If Oliver can’t marry you here the mayor of CC can” that was permission to kidnap the mayor? Felicity wasn’t thinking about getting married yet, she was trying to help look for a solution.

[statsgirl]

Fortunately slavery is over, at least it is on Arrow, and so Oliver and Felicity couldn't "offer up Diggle" to marry WA, any more than Oliver saying "I know a judge here in town who helped me with William's custody" would be offering up the judge.

[Cleanqueen]

29 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Actually, I had to look up the two writers for this episode, but the new Flash writer is a male. 

The sad thing is that there was a great moment in this same episode with Caitlin and Amunet, where the villain is praising the hero. It really does feel like two different writers wrote the episode. 

My bad I thought the former sleepy hollow writer was actually a female writer.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

My bad I thought the former sleepy hollow writer was actually a female writer.

Wait, they have a sleepy hollow writer? Who?

[Lady Calypso]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Wait, they have a sleepy hollow writer? Who?

His name is Sam Chalsen. 

[Cleanqueen]

Honestly this is why I hate the Flash writers so much, as if the ppl who wrote this episode totally forgot this even happened. 

 

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

His name is Sam Chalsen. 

So looking at his IMDB it looks like he came along right about the time SH went to shit LOL. Great. Good luck Flash fans with CP. EEEK....

(Why yes I AM a bitter SleepyHead. I loved that show from s1 through 3.5 after that...ugh)

Edited December 6, 2017 by catrox14

[popgoesculture]

17 hours ago, leopardprint said:

I agree and it's a shame that they dumped all over a wonderful female friendship, which both Flash and Arrow are solely lacking, for cheap laughs about bridezillas. 

I think it must've been tough for CP to say this line. EBR has had to do some not great things as Felicity (like prop random characters up, get her storylines truncated/erased for no reason other than bad plotting, etc.), but CP as Iris is so important and yet is given so little to do. We still have no idea if she's working.  It's just depressing, and I can't watch the Flash anymore. I tried a few episodes this season, but getting rid of Wally and letting in Ralph is just tone deaf and so annoying. 

 

And btw, Barry's powers are written so inconsistently... I rewatched the crossover with my sister and it makes no sense that a) Barry didn't knock out the Nazis on Earth-X/or just hit the necessary switches to turn on the portal thing before running after Red Tornado and b) that no one with COLD POWERS went after the EVIL speedster. Like wtf, show. We know that cold slows down a speedster and you have Killer Frost AND Snart there! Instead, I have to watch the speedsters chase each other all over again, and Barry letting a Nazi go. Ugh. 

[LeighAn]

4 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

Tuesday ratings

Also Monday Finals

So the highest rated show in the entire universe is now 0.2 below the demo Arrow got for its mid season season 4 finale ?

[Primal Slayer]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Someone commented at TV Line that it was the cost of the CGI for Firestorm.  But if they're going to replace him with Wally, doesn't that cost too?

I think Kid Flash would be cheaper. Plus they do a lot of unnecessary chi with The Flash.

[Primal Slayer]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

Fortunately slavery is over, at least it is on Arrow, and so Oliver and Felicity couldn't "offer up Diggle" to marry WA, any more than Oliver saying "I know a judge here in town who helped me with William's custody" would be offering up the judge.

Yes it over. And in the end Diggle didn't seem to mind and didn't object to it. Now if he complains about it later on that'd be a different story. 

 

But just looking at the scene again, imo there was more to that whole convo  unless Barry reads minds since Diggle isn't mentioned by name in the scene

Edited December 6, 2017 by Primal Slayer

[Starfish35]

Chi?

[Primal Slayer]

1 minute ago, Starfish35 said:

Chi?

Cgi. Damn auto correct.

[Starfish35]

Just now, Primal Slayer said:

Cgi. Damn auto correct.

Ah! That makes more sense. :) 

[Starfish35]

Legends held on to the 0.6.  

Edited December 6, 2017 by Starfish35

[insomniadreams88]

Question: Did they mention Barry and Iris taking photos before the planned wedding? Because they have a wedding photo in their apartment, but I had been under the impression that they were doing the whole "groom shouldn't see the bride before the ceremony" thing and that Barry saw Iris in her dress for the first time when she walked down the aisle, meaning photos would have been done after. Which couldn't have happened. 

[Mellowyellow]

 It was the promo poster picture that they used. I don't think they care about the logistics of it. 

[JamieLynn832002]

Their wedding clothes seemed to hold up surprisingly well under attack/Nazi invasion, maybe they put them back on and took photos later? It's probably unlikely but I could see them wanting some happy memento of what should have been their wedding.

[ruby24]

Some couples do take photos before the ceremony.

[tennisgurl]

I shall now consult with our great and powerful god of war Beebo about what to do with the idiot writers who keep fanning these flame wars...

"BEEBO IS Hungry"

TO THE PYRE!!!!!

Edited December 6, 2017 by tennisgurl

[leopardprint]

3 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Some couples do take photos before the ceremony.

I feel like this is actually fairly typical. 50% of the weddings I've been in have the photos before the ceremony. 

(Barry probably kidnapped a photographer back in time to take pictures and erased his daughter in the process.)

Edited December 6, 2017 by leopardprint

[Midnight Lullaby]

Here it’s unusual..people take pics while the others wait for them at the restaurant, LOL

[apinknightmare]

Didn't Barry leave Iris a note that it was bad luck to see her before the ceremony? 

I could easily believe that they just got dressed again and had them redone after they returned all their unwanted gifts to the store.

[bijoux]

Who’s the poor sucker who got killed so Barry could be framed? Anyone important?