Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[tv echo]

Historical and pop cultural allusions/references in the crossover...

2016 U.S. Presidential election (Republican campaign slogan) - Jax: "Yeah. Make America Aryan again."

The Man in the High Castle (2015 Amazon TV series, based on Philip K. Dick novel) - Felicity: "It was Oliver in the High Castle."

Stalag ("stammlager," German prisoner-of-war camps) - Felicity: "Stalag STAR Labs."

Dr. Josef Mengele (Nazi "Angel of Death", 1911-1979) - Felicity: "And Kara only has a few hours before they go full Mengele on her." Also, Ray Palmer: "Mitts off, Mengele."

Die Hard (1988 movie) - Felicity (to Iris): "Lead the way, McClane."

The Terminator (1984 movie) - Iris (to Kara): "Come with me if you want to live." Also, Dinah: "This guy's like the Terminator."

Ada Lovelace (computer programmer, mathematician, 1815-1852) -  Felicity: "Latte, Ada, Jonas, 1-1-9-0-0."

Star Raiders (Atari video game) - Cisco: "This is just like Star Raiders on Atari except it's real."

Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope (1977 movie) - Wells (to Cisco): "Cut the chatter, Red 2."

"Big Red Button" (TV trope, like in Galaxy Quest) - Killer Frost: "Hit the big, blinking red button."

Superman II (1980 movie) - Kara (to Earth-X Kara): "General, would you care to step outside?"

Superman (DC comics) - Wells (to Kara): "You need to fly her up. Up. And away."

Superman (canon generally) - Nate (catching Kara when she fell to Earth): "I figured it'd take the Man of Steel to catch the Girl of Steel."

Edited November 30, 2017 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

19 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

But honestly the only thing I thought when I saw the scene was “ew vomit”, nothing else.

Same. It wasn't until I saw so much uproar about Felicity that I even thought about it, LOL.

[tv echo]

Behind-the-scenes featurette...

[Sakura12]

Since I don't care about either ship my takeaway was "eww, at least move away from the vomit" and it looks like you all married each other, I hope you are all happy in your poly relationship. 

[Featherhat]

3 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Since I don't care about either ship my takeaway was "eww, at least move away from the vomit" and it looks like you all married each other, I hope you are all happy in your poly relationship. 

Yes the vomit was the grossest part and at least give Dig the time to clean his teeth or pop a breath mint. 

Also it did seem like and unofficial Poly commitment ceremony, which was slightly eyebrow raising (and I'm sure someone's gonna write those fics). 

But its frustrating because Felicity was awesome 98% of this crossover and now she's once again the focus of so much backlash because the writers awkwardly jabbed it in there at the wrong moment. Either agree on a joint ceremony first or give them 10 seconds to finish. If it hadn't been filmed months ago I'd have said it was a passive aggressive jab over EBR's sexual harassment.

I suppose with how legally unbinding the ceremony is likely to be WestAllen can still get a courthouse wedding without being interrupted in exactly the same play each time, which I guess was supposed to be the parallel. 

[apinknightmare]

6 minutes ago, icandigit said:

I wanted them to get their two seconds.

They did. It happened when they got married at the very end of LoT, when they were just going to go to the JoP since - per their own words - they already had their ceremony.

Edited November 30, 2017 by apinknightmare

[insomniadreams88]

You know, they could have fixed what was wrong with the double wedding easily. Have the five of them walk away from Diggle's vomit, show Felicity whispering something to Iris as they do, then have Iris look over at Felicity just before Felicity speaks up and proposes, so it looks like maybe Felicity told Iris what she wanted and Iris already knew and approved. 

[leopardprint]

If Iris didn't cancel all these people after they RSVP'd the day before the wedding then she is the most chillaxed bride ever and probably didn't care that Felicity interrupted. (Barry's feelings aren't worth any consideration) 

What is really rude is that Diggle didn't officiate in a tank top. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by leopardprint

[Lady Calypso]

5 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Since I don't care about either ship my takeaway was "eww, at least move away from the vomit" and it looks like you all married each other, I hope you are all happy in your poly relationship. 

Oh yeah, that's what I wanted to mention too. The way the scene was shot, with Felicity interrupting before the pronouncing of husband and wife, and Diggle then naming all of them, it really made it look like a polyamorous marriage, which made me cackle. With Iris and Barry's crushes on Oliver, the whole Barry/Felicity short-lived non-romance that one time, and Iris/Felicity's close friendship, they really did create the perfect double wedding. 

I do stand by my opinion that the way the double wedding scene happened was a little rude on Felicity's end and they should have waited until Diggle officially married WestAllen to ask to marry them next, but it doesn't detract from the entire crossover and badass Felicity throughout the last hour, nor my love for both couples and my excitement that they're both married. 

Also, one more nitpick: they needed to not have Olicity blocking WestAllen at the end there. I think Gregory Smith made one misstep in his directing by having WestAllen mostly blocked when they were kissing. He needed to just shift everyone a little bit. Olicity on the right side, WestAllen in the middle, and Diggle to the left side of the screen. 

I think even these minor changes would have helped with the scene quite a bit. Also, maybe they shouldn't have promoted the whole crossover as WestAllen heavy and then make it Olicity heavy. As an Olicity fan, I was super pleased. But, as a WestAllen fan, I also feel like I got lied to a little bit (and I FULLY understand that WestAllen got a lot of build-up to the wedding while Olicity's wedding was spontaneous and only built up in this crossover). Maybe because I expected more from them and then the three hours after the botched wedding was dedicated to Firestorm, Olicity, and Nazi love. But the promotional aspect isn't on the actors, but on the promo monkeys and the network, so I don't fault the people involved in the actual shows at all. 

Though I also agree that there needs to be more focus on everything else in the crossover and not just on the last three minutes. It certainly didn't ruin everything for me, and I still love Felicity. Just sometimes, the writers make odd choices with all of my favourite characters that I question. See: Barry letting Eobard go. Like come on, Barry! I really want to like you again but you keep making it so damn hard!

[leopardprint]

Olicity is one of the reasons why I watch Arrow but I don't particularly care about them getting married so I thought the double wedding was just straight up silly. It definitely looked like a poly marriage or one of those mass weddings cults have, I think the actors did what they could with it (if that makes sense). Though I do think they were trying to go for something like what @tv echo said about marriages that couldn't happen on Earth-X. 

Really Iris and Felicity should have dumped the dead weight and married each other. 

Team Iricity! 

Edited November 30, 2017 by leopardprint

[bijoux]

9 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

If it hadn't been filmed months ago I'd have said it was a passive aggressive jab over EBR's sexual harassment.

I’m not following. What sexual harassment?

[icandigit]

14 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

They did. It happened when they got married at the very end of LoT, when they were just going to go to the JoP since - per their own words - they already had their ceremony.

I wanted them to get to seconds to close out their wedding.

[Featherhat]

1 minute ago, bijoux said:

I’m not following. What sexual harassment?

EBR specifically called out MG on twitter about his comments on "reverse sexism" after the AK story broke.  I mean I doubt it was due the timelines for one thing, but he can be such a passive aggressive ass. 

[way2interested]

I guess I also didn't really care since the writers of multiple shows went out of their way (almost hilariously so) to try to make Felicity not look like a bad guy in the scene both before and during the scene. Even if it didn't work for all people, the intent from the writers wasn't to just let Felicity interrupt and not care how people take it, which I at least appreciate.

Just now, bijoux said:

I’m not following. What sexual harassment?

I'm guessing they're referring to the rumors about if any of the actors came out and complained about the environment they were punished with bad storylines or scenes, but tbh like I said above I saw the writers going out of their way to try to make Felicity blameless for a scene that they needed to happen.

[apinknightmare]

8 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

But, as a WestAllen fan, I also feel like I got lied to a little bit (and I FULLY understand that WestAllen got a lot of build-up to the wedding while Olicity's wedding was spontaneous and only built up in this crossover). Maybe because I expected more from them and then the three hours after the botched wedding was dedicated to Firestorm, Olicity, and Nazi love.

I totally agree that the follow-up was disappointing for WestAllen fans, but they did get a pretty significant chunk of the whole first hour, which was honestly more than I thought they'd get. The writers had Barry and Iris's progeny tell Barry to make sure he says "I do," then had him specifically NOT do that. So, I'm guessing you're going to get more wedding stuff on Flash (with a ceremony just for them, done right this time since hopefully Barry will follow instructions!), and that's how they'll make up for it on that front.

Quote

Just sometimes, the writers make odd choices with all of my favourite characters that I question. See: Barry letting Eobard go. Like come on, Barry! I really want to like you again but you keep making it so damn hard!

Even if he had to be free for plot purposes, Barry could've at least tried and then gotten overpowered. Him just letting Thawne go is such a weird choice. 

[tv echo]

FYI, I've just posted several media reviews of the Flash/LoT conclusion to the crossover in the Starling City Times thread.

[leopardprint]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

Even if he had to be free for plot purposes, Barry could've at least tried and then gotten overpowered. Him just letting Thawne go is such a weird choice. 

There is a bit of an obsession with showing the difference between Oliver and Barry so I'm sure it was about the contrast between them as heroes. 

[apinknightmare]

Just now, leopardprint said:

There is a bit of an obsession with showing the difference between Oliver and Barry so I'm sure it was about the contrast between them as heroes. 

Oh definitely! But Thawne taunted Barry about not killing him - he could've still tried to capture him, even if he failed. Just standing aside as he let a Nazi killer go free didn't really contrast the way they were probably hoping. Which happens a lot on these shows, I guess.

[Midnight Lullaby]

7 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

If Iris didn't cancel all these people after they RSVP'd the day before the wedding then she is the most chillaxed bride ever and probably didn't care that Felicity interrupted. (Barry's feelings aren't worth any consideration) 

What is really rude is that Diggle didn't officiate in a tank top. 

Now that was rude of them. It’s so annoying when you organize something and people answer at the last minute. I would have sent them passive aggressive text messages, lol. But again this isn’t real life, it was done like that because it was a fun scene to do.

I do think ranting about how Felicity is selfish and rude doesn’t do justice to a girl who was willing to sacrifice her life for an almost stranger without hesitation. 

[Lady Calypso]

Just now, leopardprint said:

There is a bit of an obsession with showing the difference between Oliver and Barry so I'm sure it was about the contrast between them as heroes. 

It's annoying at this point, only because Barry has dealt with Eobard once before. Eobard even predicted what Barry would do (let him go). I was really rooting for Barry to go "I guess you don't know me well enough" before killing him. They just let Eobard take control of the situation, which made Barry look like he hasn't learned anything in four seasons. Hell, Barry could have even knocked Eobard out somehow! Something! Anything but just letting him go! 

Oliver doesn't always kill, either. Sometimes, he'll just knock the villains out. He never intentionally lets them go.

Also, if Iris can kill Savitar with ease and no moral debate, Barry could do the same thing, or just something that doesn't make him look like he's new. 

[JJ928]

9 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Even if he had to be free for plot purposes, Barry could've at least tried and then gotten overpowered. Him just letting Thawne go is such a weird choice. 

I agree 100%. It still doesn't make sense how Barry didn't even try to detain him to throw him in the pipeline.

My friend has a theory that the Barry that is back, is actually Eobard from another time disguising himself (I guess he says it's a comic thing) and that's why Barry let him go. Yeah, I don't think that's the case. I just think they write Barry like a child sometimes. If the Flash ever went that route, I'd be so done because that would be way too messed up.

Edited November 30, 2017 by JJ928

[Midnight Lullaby]

20 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

 

 Also, maybe they shouldn't have promoted the whole crossover as WestAllen heavy and then make it Olicity heavy. As an Olicity fan, I was super pleased. But, as a WestAllen fan, I also feel like I got lied to a little bit (and I FULLY understand that WestAllen got a lot of build-up to the wedding while Olicity's wedding was spontaneous and only built up in this crossover). Maybe because I expected more from them and then the three hours after the botched wedding was dedicated to Firestorm, Olicity, and Nazi love. But the promotional aspect isn't on the actors, but on the promo monkeys and the network, so I don't fault the people involved in the actual shows at all. 

About this I understand but also I assumed it was going this way (not about being Olicity heavy, I thought it was going to be even more Nazi heavy, I’m talking about being not WestAllen heavy) because if you start a story with a couple already being at the finish line there’s no more story there to tell about them getting married. There was no going from point A to B for Westallen because they were already at point B to begin with and it would have made no sense to create conflict to create a story out of the blue. The conflict was created for Olicity and Jax/Stein and they ended up having a more meaty story during the crossover and Westallen a more supportive role because they were already happy, ready to get married with no doubts or issues from the beginning.

[WindofChange]

14 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

About this I understand but also I assumed it was going this way (not about being Olicity heavy, I thought it was going to be even more Nazi heavy, I’m talking about being not WestAllen heavy) because if you start a story with a couple already being at the finish line there’s no more story there to tell about them getting married. There was no going from point A to B for Westallen because they were already at point B to begin with and it would have made no sense to create conflict to create a story out of the blue. The conflict was created for Olicity and Jax/Stein and they ended up having a more meaty story during the crossover and Westallen a more supportive role because they were already happy, ready to get married with no doubts or issues from the beginning.

You also had interviews like Mericle's saying this crossover was centered around Oliver finding the meaning of true love and stuff like that which should've been an indicator that maybe this crossover isn't centered around Westallen which I think people ignored for some reason. Because to me I was never expecting Westallen to be the center of attention of this crossover because of all the interviews and also because there is no story to tell for Westallen considering all they have to do is get married and that's it. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by WindofChange

[Lady Calypso]

10 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

About this I understand but also I assumed it was going this way (not about being Olicity heavy, I thought it was going to be even more Nazi heavy, I’m talking about being not WestAllen heavy) because if you start a story with a couple already being at the finish line there’s no more story there to tell about them getting married. There was no going from point A to B for Westallen because they were already at point B to begin with and it would have made no sense to create conflict to create a story out of the blue. The conflict was created for Olicity and Jax/Stein and they ended up having a more meaty story during the crossover and Westallen a more supportive role because they were already happy, ready to get married with no doubts or issues from the beginning.

Oh yeah, I totally agree. I just think that they still could have had a bit more WestAllen than they had. Surprisingly, I felt that there was less Grant Gustin than I assumed there'd be. At times, if he was in a scene, he'd just be standing there. I mean, besides the first hour, of course. I do think the issue lies directly with the promotion of the crossover being WestAllen heavy (not just in various interviews but in commercials and promo pics), only to have that not be the case after the Nazis showed up. It was 100% an Olicity-centered crossover, if there was a main couple to choose from. So I can see why sole Flash fans wouldn't be happy. 

However, they did build up the Olicity and Firestorm plots extremely well. They did a much better job than I thought they would. I assumed they would botch both somehow (making Oliver and/or Felicity look like awful, out of character people as they did in the season 4 crossover, or have Firestorm in it very little only to spring Stein's death in the last hour with little build-up), so I was really pleasantly surprised at both storylines working very well.

It still doesn't mean they couldn't have gotten rid of about 50% of the Overgirl/Dark Fuhrer romantic scenes for some more WestAllen-centric scenes. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

I never wrote that it was kidnapping. But Diggle was out there living his own life doing whatever while he was hurt - which Barry knew - and Barry just grabbed him and brought him to Central City without asking him because Barry wanted Diggle to do something for him. Which, if we're talking about people being rude - is incredibly rude.

I don't think I said that you did. I've read it across the forums and threads by others, and just wanted to state that I found it funny, and didn't have a problem with it. 

[Chaser]

18 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

About this I understand but also I assumed it was going this way (not about being Olicity heavy, I thought it was going to be even more Nazi heavy, I’m talking about being not WestAllen heavy) because if you start a story with a couple already being at the finish line there’s no more story there to tell about them getting married. There was no going from point A to B for Westallen because they were already at point B to begin with and it would have made no sense to create conflict to create a story out of the blue. The conflict was created for Olicity and Jax/Stein and they ended up having a more meaty story during the crossover and Westallen a more supportive role because they were already happy, ready to get married with no doubts or issues from the beginning.

When I was rewatching, I took note about how many WA scenes there were in comparison to Olicity. They were actually about even. Olicitys just carried the weight of a journey. The same way scenes with Jax/Stein and Kara/Alex and Alex/Sara did. 

I do think there was a PR failure here with all the visual promo not matching the emotional (interview) aspect of the Crossover. That goes to bigger problem for me. They only focus on the comic part, they only give weight to that part.

Also, holy short term memory Batman Im getting a lot of "look what WA went thru to be together, they deserve this!" - I'm sorry but Olicity went thru a whole lot to reach that point and saying WA are the only ones who deserve it is  ridiculous.

[leopardprint]

20 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

It still doesn't mean they couldn't have gotten rid of about 50% of the Overgirl/Dark Fuhrer romantic scenes for some more WestAllen-centric scenes. 

So I think that the villains were a total failure but I actually think the shoehorning in of this sub plot really diminished the villains plot also all the speeches about weakness and "heroes". If you are going to use Nazis, a half baked love story about saving your evil wife really doesn't add anything except to make me question why you needed them to be Nazis to tell this story? Also that a rando human would be the leader of a regime obsessed with strength over superpowered individuals. I get that poorly and lazily conceived villains are an issue across the Arrowverse but they really leaned into it here. Just threw up their hands and said "let's just make them Nazis." 

Edited November 30, 2017 by leopardprint

[tangerine95]

I never thought it was supposed to be that WA heavy tbh.Maybe it's because I've been watching for so long and I'm basically used to their promo almost never reflecting what actually happens and what's the focus in an episode.Plus we had the interviews that made it clear it was going to be a love theme for the crossovers which meant multiple couples so I figured we'd get a lot of olicity as they had the most story to cover.I get being disappointed with the lack of WA scenes but I really think that was just because they didn't have conflict in the episodes at all as opposed to olicity.I mean I'm not really a WA shipper but imo they could have cut the totally pointless Nazi love story and gave that screentime to WA,I sure would have preferred that.

[popgoesculture]

7 hours ago, lemotomato said:

Overgirl as Fuhrer would have made more sense (she's more powerful than humans, after all) and would have eliminated the unnecessary Nazi romance while still keeping the find-Kara-and-take-her-heart plot-- she would've been the one directing Eobard, EX Prometheus, and EX Oliver to get her a transplant. 

Yes, this times a million. If anything, it would've allowed the take-the-heart plot to make more sense, since everyone would try save her (vs. the repeated conversations about how she had to let herself go since EX Oliver wouldn't or whatever). 

Honestly, I think the whole crossover could've done without any Nazi stuff and I would've much preferred it. Like someone trying to steal someone's heart/take over someone's world is just evil so I'm cool with the heroes fighting them for that reason. Have Overgirl be a generic evil dictator. I don't need CW's attempts to explain/portray Nazism as this campy comic thing when in reality, it's so much more insidious and around us on a daily basis. And then you can weirdly insert Thawne for no reason (like suddenly he's a Nazi? the same dude from season 1 who wanted to get back home?). 

Side notes: I was aggravated that you have Killer Frost and Captain Cold, both of whom are more than capable of slowing down speedsters due to their cold powers, yet Barry and Thawne chased each other for the 9000th time. And also, Felicity Smoak can totally override the door to the pipeline, show, so that was some lazy writing. You just have Iris try it for a second and that's it? Let your characters be capable and don't take away their abilities to suit the writing. Change the writing to fit them. Finally, Stein wasn't dying right away (neither was Jax) and they couldn't let him go say goodbye to the family he abandoned for so long? Really??? 

[tv echo]

6 Biggest Questions We Have After The Arrow-verse Crossover
BY LAURA HURLEY November 29, 2017
https://www.cinemablend.com/television/1732019/6-biggest-questions-we-have-after-the-arrow-verse-crossover

Quote

What will happen to Earth-X?
When the heroes left Earth-X, it was in pretty bad shape with Nazis in control of just about everything. The good news for the folks of Earth-X is that both Overgirl and Dark Arrow were killed on Earth-1, and Thawne didn't seem like he was planning on returning to the Nazi world. The bad news is that there may be a power vacuum on Earth-X now, and chaos could reign for a while. Still, the resistance may finally stand a chance of defeating the Nazis, even without Citizen Cold on hand. Barry did offer to lend a hand if the Ray ever needs help punching Nazis again, so it's possible that the Ray series won't be the only time we'll see Earth-X again.
*  *  *
Who designates the Earths?
Prior to "Crisis On Earth-X," it was established that there are 52 Earths in the multiverse, but Wells dropped the bomb in the first episode that there's a fifty-third Earth known as Earth-X. None of the shows in the Arrow-verse have ever really explained who designates the Earths. It's understandable why Team Flash would decide they were on Earth-1, but who decides which Earth is which? Was there a vote on leaving Earth-X out of the numbered Earths? Do any of the other Earths object to not being Earth-1? Harrison Wells may be the only one who knows for sure, but he hasn't shared just yet.
*  *  *
Why did Barry and Iris wait so long for RSVPs? They didn't even know if two members of their wedding party were attending until the day before!

Where was Earth-X Barry Allen? The Earth-X incarnations of Oliver, Kara, and Sara were accounted for, but Barry was nowhere to be found.

When did Eobard Thawne fight Superman? He mentioned to Kara that he'd fought one version of her cousin.

How will the heroes defeating the Nazis affect the anti-vigilante attitude in Star City? They civilians may have to change their tunes about hating vigilantes.

Why did the Nazis attack Earth-1 instead of Earth-38? They wouldn't have had to face Green Arrow, the Flash, or any of the Legends on Earth-38, although Martian Manhunter and Superman would have been around.

What will Thawne do next?
Who was that wedding caterer?
Will Firestorm come back?
What's the deal with Snart?
What will happen to Earth-X?
Who designates the Earths?

Edited November 30, 2017 by tv echo

[Midnight Lullaby]

16 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Oh yeah, I totally agree. I just think that they still could have had a bit more WestAllen than they had. Surprisingly, I felt that there was less Grant Gustin than I assumed there'd be. At times, if he was in a scene, he'd just be standing there. I mean, besides the first hour, of course. I do think the issue lies directly with the promotion of the crossover being WestAllen heavy (not just in various interviews but in commercials and promo pics), only to have that not be the case after the Nazis showed up. It was 100% an Olicity-centered crossover, if there was a main couple to choose from. So I can see why sole Flash fans wouldn't be happy. 

However, they did build up the Olicity and Firestorm plots extremely well. They did a much better job than I thought they would. I assumed they would botch both somehow (making Oliver and/or Felicity look like awful, out of character people as they did in the season 4 crossover, or have Firestorm in it very little only to spring Stein's death in the last hour with little build-up), so I was really pleasantly surprised at both storylines working very well.

It still doesn't mean they couldn't have gotten rid of about 50% of the Overgirl/Dark Fuhrer romantic scenes for some more WestAllen-centric scenes. 

I think there was less Grant because he was the only one of the leads that didn’t also play his EX version..it was very noticeable how SA had more to do..

If they used evil versions of the heroes instead of Nazis I would have watched the crossover even with original characters so while I like Olicity I liked it as a whole. I have never watched Legends but I really liked the plot about Stein and Jax..

I completely agree they could have avoided romantic Overgirl/Dark Arrow and put more cute Westallen scenes. There was no need to tell us how poor Nazi Oliver was upset because Nazi Kara was dying and was torn between helping her and conquering E1 even if SA helped me be not as annoyed as I thought I was going to be about them humanizing Nazis because he acted like a robot more than like a real person. Even if they put more Westallen scenes in the crossover though I don’t think it would have been meaty stuff so I don’t know if it would have been that satisfying.

[leopardprint]

14 minutes ago, popgoesculture said:

Honestly, I think the whole crossover could've done without any Nazi stuff and I would've much preferred it. Like someone trying to steal someone's heart/take over someone's world is just evil so I'm cool with the heroes fighting them for that reason. Have Overgirl be a generic evil dictator. I don't need CW's attempts to explain/portray Nazism as this campy comic thing when in reality, it's so much more insidious and around us on a daily basis. And then you can weirdly insert Thawne for no reason (like suddenly he's a Nazi? the same dude from season 1 who wanted to get back home?). 

Ok so I thought that Thawn went back in time and helped the Nazis win? Did I mishear that? 

I agree with everything you said. The Nazis were sooooo campy and I thought all the dopplegangers, particularly MB and SA was doing the KC powered down robot that activates when speaking, were acting like they were in a parody. Coupled with the horrendous production values of Earth-X, it was just, yikes. The Train fight was unintentionally hilarious. 

Also, they left all those people in that camp! 

Maybe they should have done a world taken over by the League of Assassins where Supergirl landed in Nanda Parbat? Then we could have had Nyssa!

Edited November 30, 2017 by leopardprint

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

Also, they left all those people in that camp! 

That was my biggest issue with the whole thing - when Oliver and co were in the camp, all he said was that they had to get out of there and get back to the people they love. No one seemed to consider saving the people there? I know it's a daunting task, but...IDK. Maybe someone said something about helping once they found out there was an active resistance? If so, I don't remember.

[bijoux]

I also wasn’t too thrilled about the heroes just strutting down the street in slo-mo as Nazis were gunning down civilians. Those are lame at any time, but this was a really bad visual call.

Edited November 30, 2017 by bijoux

[leopardprint]

2 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

That was my biggest issue with the whole thing - when Oliver and co were in the camp, all he said was that they had to get out of there and get back to the people they love. No one seemed to consider saving the people there? I know it's a daunting task, but...IDK. Maybe someone said something about helping once they found out there was an active resistance? If so, I don't remember.

I think they were primarily concerned with saving Supergirl and getting back home not so much with all the people suffering under the Nazis. 

Also, random thought, could you imagine the reaction if there were Nazis marching and shooting people in a random Americanada city? 

[tangerine95]

Yeah I don't get why it had to be nazi stuff.I don't think they humanized it as much as I worried but it was still weird especially with nazi Oliver.Like what purpose did that serve at all to show he cares about Overgirl?Felt really like a random thing just for shock value of having MB and SA kiss, like I expected it to be.

And I don't think MB and SA did a good job at the nazi versions tbh.SA was so wooden and flat,worse than season 1 Oliver at his worst.But it actually helped me be less disgusted in a way because even tho he has Oliver's face,he was so robotic it wasn't like watching a real person at all.MB I thought just did awful at playing evil.Just so campy and flat out bad most of time time.She was better as Kara this time than the last time I watched her which was the musical flash episode.The only one who did a good job was PB,he was believable and actually scary in his scenes.

[tv echo]

Wow...

The Year's Best 'Justice League' Movie Didn't Need Batman Or Superman
Scott Mendelson    November 29, 2017
https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/11/29/crisis-on-earth-x-is-the-years-best-justice-league-movie/#12853f091e0f

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As the DC Films cinematic universe has artistically struggled; its smaller-scale TV counterpart has been firing on all cylinders. They just wrapped up a four-part/two-night crossover event that was really something special. “Crisis on Earth X,” which involved the casts and relevant ongoing storylines of Supergirl, Arrow, The Flash and Legends of Tomorrow, is not only the best CW “Arrow-verse” crossover event yet, but it was a better Justice League movie than the actual Justice League movie and in many ways was better or at least equal to the best MCU crossover events.

There is a certain irony in how Greg Berlanti and company essentially built a fully-functioning DC TV universe from the ground up by essentially taking the MCU approach. By that I mean they picked a lower-profile/B-level character and created a world around him. For the MCU, it was Robert Downey Jr.’s Iron Man. For the CW, it was Stephen Amell’s variation on the Green Arrow. Absent sky-high expectations or much in the way of precedent (superhero TV wasn’t exactly firing on all cylinders back in 2012), Arrow was allowed to grow from a ground-level grimdark Batman Begins-wannabe into something unique unto itself.

The show’s popular second season embraced a more comic book-y sensibility while developing a will they/won’t they buzz between Oliver Queen and Emily Bett Rickards’ cheerfully goofy tech genius Felicity Smoke and playing around with established comic book lore. It also had a two-part episode which introduced a Central City police scientist named Barry Allen (Grant Gustin). That set up what would be the second CW DC superhero show, The Flash. And the first season of The Flash hit the ground running, quite literally, mixing sci-fi superhero nuttiness (time travel, Gorilla Grodd, costumed villains, etc.) with openhearted family melodrama (those parts in season one where Jesse L. Martin’s monologues would make everyone cry).
*  *  *
Legends of Tomorrow followed in mid-season 2015. It was something of a whacked-out fever cartoon, with various heroes and villains from the first two shows being recruited to travel through time to save the world. The first season got by on the sheer chemistry of its cast (Garber's Professor Stein, Wentworth Miller’s Captain Cold, Brandon Routh’s The Atom, Caity Lotz’s White Canary, Franz Drameh's Jefferson Jackson, etc.). It morphed in its second season into a campy time travel adventure which pitted our heroes against a variation of the Legion of Doom. The show also became a blunt magical history tour for those who favor Kenneth C. Davis' Don't Know Much About History.

That leaves the other new kid on the block, Supergirl. The show aired its first season on CBS before switching to the CW, and it quickly overcame its “can Supergirl be as heroic as Superman?” post-pilot jitters to become a wonderfully insightful and humane superhero saga. Feverishly feminist in its first season, and unapologetically political in its second, the Melissa Benoist vehicle now thrives on its growing cast of dynamic women (Benoist, Chyler Leigh, Katie McGrath and occasionally Calista Flockhart), who in turn thrive on sisterhood and friendship while dealing with alien threats and Adrian Pasdar’s very loose variation on our current commander-in-chief.

After plenty of ups and downs over the years, all four shows are firing on all cylinders, with The Flash returning to its season one optimism, Supergirl embracing its proverbial girl power (all due respect to David Harewood’s movingly deadpan J’onn J’onzz) and Arrow giving itself a shot in the arm by taking Oliver off of vigilante duty. There is plenty of time to screw up, but thus far all four shows are having what may be their very best seasons yet.

I gave you all of this background because it’s key to why this week’s glorified 168-minute movie worked so well. It's the year's best Justice League movie and, in some ways, one of the best superhero movies of the last several years.

Yes, the production values are quite good for television, as the fine special effects for The Flash, Supergirl and Legends of Tomorrow combine well with the top-notch fight choreography from Arrow (no dimly lit hallway punchouts to be found). But the key is that all of these characters know each other, many of them really like or love each other, and we’ve had at least three years to get to know them as well. The CW universe understands that it’s the character interaction, be it for low comedy or high melodrama, as opposed to action and spectacle, that makes these superhero sagas click.
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It’s the characters that partake in the spectacle, not the spectacle itself, that creates fandoms and gets audiences excited. The Harry Potter series understood this to a frighteningly effective degree, and the MCU figured it out as well. And, yeah, the best moments of Zack Snyder and Joss Whedon's Justice League movie (which I liked well enough) are the ones where our heroes just chit-chat and unload on each other as the group of strangers mold into a surrogate family. But on Monday and Tuesday night’s event, they were already a family. If Justice League was a promise made (the movie feels like a pilot for what’s to come), then “Crisis On Earth X” was a promise at-long last kept.

The four-part mini-series got to use years of earned (and unexpected) character interactions, inside jokes, plot beats and crowd-pleasing moments because it took the time to establish this universe accordingly. It wasn’t just the idea of The Flash, Green Arrow and Supergirl fighting futuristic Nazis, it was the idea of these specific versions of these characters, along with beloved supporting characters, partaking in this grand adventure. So, for example, when Supergirl’s sister Alex (Leigh) hooks up with the White Canary, when Barry gives Oliver the “mentor” pep-talk, or when Kara (Supergirl) Danvers croons a song that we first heard the last time Supergirl and the Flash teamed up, or when significant changes occur to the status quo in the final two episodes, it works as character development as well as fan service.

And unlike last year’s crossover event, this one didn’t end with a whimper. We got, if not quite IMAX-worthy action spectaculars, some pretty damn impressive showdowns along with some status-quo altering developments. The CW crossover event worked both on its own terms and as arguably the best superhero movie of the year, give or take Wonder Woman. It effortlessly balanced comedy, melodrama, action and grim Nazi-related drama in a way that outclassed not just Justice League but also Netflix’s The Defenders miniseries from earlier this year.
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The CW TV universe is thriving while the DC Films universe is struggling precisely because the TV version laid the groundwork, brick by brick until they had the materials for a satisfying multi-part crossover. Even the crossovers themselves have running gags, like current Green Arrow John Diggle’s (David Ramsey) continuing astonishment at his more superpowered allies. They had some bumps along the way (both Arrow and Flash had lousy third seasons), but this superhero team-up spectacular felt like the payoff to a carefully constructed path, with a showy comic book superhero adventure pitched to fans but accessible to newbies.

Edited November 30, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Another article comparing "Crisis on Earth-X" favorably to the big screen superhero movies...

Take note, Hollywood: TV did right by its female superheroes this week, and was better for it  
Gwen Ihnat   November 29, 2017
https://www.avclub.com/take-note-hollywood-tv-did-right-by-its-female-superh-1820846044

Quote

The women of the DC and Marvel universes have gotten short shrift on the big screen. Yes, Wonder Woman was better than we could have hoped for, and Gal Gadot continued to kick all kinds of ass in Justice League. But Wonder Woman is the only female character in that team-up movie who’s not a love interest or a mother, give or take Mera’s five minutes of oddly accented whirlpooling. And she’s the only female superhero to have her own movie in the modern batch of DC and Marvel films. By contrast, the list of men who star in their own films are Batman, Superman, Iron Man, The Incredible Hulk, Thor, Star-Lord, Captain America, Ant-Man, Doctor Strange, Spider-Man, and the upcoming Black Panther. (The X-Men films, meanwhile, are mostly group efforts, though there are three characters in this universe to get their own films: Wolverine, Deadpool, and the upcoming Gambit.)

Considering non-starring roles, Guardian Of The Galaxy’s Gamora and Nebula are some fierce female warriors, but new Guardian addition Mantis is much meeker than menacing. Marvel finally gave us a worthwhile female supervillain in Thor: Ragnarok’s Hela, but Valkyrie was reduced to little more than a sidekick, and a scene alluding to her bisexuality was left out of the final cut. Harley Quinn was the breakout star of Suicide Squad, for better and worse. Black Widow is still one of the few Avengers without her own standalone movie; the first round of toys based on a key Age Of Ultron moment for Scarlett Johansson’s Russian spy-turned-S.H.I.E.L.D. asset didn’t even include her as an action figure.

These blockbusters could take a lesson from Crisis On Earth-X, the crossover event that played out on The CW’s DC-inspired series this week. In interlocking episodes of Supergirl, Arrow, The Flash, and DC’s Legends Of Tomorrow, the women were not afterthoughts, or merely love interests, but integral parts of the plotting, and scheming—and honestly, the best parts of the fighting. The series also contained not one but two plots involving same-sex relationships, heightening the romantic and dramatic stakes from multiple angles.
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These characters begin earning their spotlights early. When the Nazis first invade—vaporizing officiant/superhero-TV-Easter-egg William Katt—Supergirl’s government-agent sister Alex and Legends Of Tomorrow’s Sara (a.k.a. the assassin White Canary) immediately stand up, tear slits into their fancy dresses, and start pummeling the hooded, armed attackers while still in stilettos. (The fact that the duo hooked up the night before is an unexpected and delicious bonus.) Alex and Sara are just two of the many fearsome fighters gathered to witness the nuptials of Barry Allen and Iris West, and a battle quickly breaks out in the church—one more impressive (and legible) than anything in the eternally darkly lit Justice League. Arrow has his bow, The Flash his super-speed, and Vibe his vibration booms. Sara and Alex have nothing but their ninja-worthy fighting skills, which they deliver in punch after punch after roundhouse kick. (Sarah even uses an incense urn as a makeshift weapon.) And so it goes throughout Crisis On Earth-X, the women fighting alongside, and in front of, their male counterparts, smashing sexist traditions of men gallantly protecting the weaker womenfolk as Supergirl dukes it out with her Nazi doppelgänger and Caitlin Snow reluctantly calls upon the icy powers of Killer Frost.
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Crisis On Earth-X also provides a chance to shine for the women behind the scenes of the Arrowverse. Neither The Flash’s Iris or Arrow’s Felicity are known for their derring-do, but they manage to knock a few Nazis using the element of surprise. It’s worth noting that Felicity’s Earth-X equivalent is also a hero, a prisoner risking death to deliver food to starving children. Across the board in this CW miniseries, these women are not waiting around to get rescued or protected; they are doing the rescuing themselves. They’re so formidable, and dominant, that it’s not even possible that they would be cast off as sidekicks. Compare that to Wonder Woman and Black Widow’s places within their respective big-screen teams, the makeshift den mothers outnumbered by their male colleagues.

Sure, Iris and Felicity both become wives at the end—at least Oliver was the one pushing for marriage, not Felicity, but her brush with death brings her around on matrimony. And too much is made of Kara going stag at the wedding. But Alex and Sara go past their one-night stand to become not just fighting partners but confidants, as Sara helps Alex realize her sound reasoning for breaking up with former fiancée Maggie. Captain Cold regretfully says goodbye to his paramour in order to stick around on Earth-1, which only means great things for those of us on that side of the DC universe. As Oliver Sava writes in his review of “Crisis On Earth-X, Part Four,” “it’s great to see these superhero shows normalizing queer relationships,” an effort especially valuable for younger viewers discovering their own sexuality.

Edited November 30, 2017 by tv echo

[tarotx]

The only thing I hated was that it was Nazis. They could have had the same hate but call them something else. The heroes leaving all those poor souls at the concentration camp to save their own loved ones, I'm totally not big on that at all. It makes them all look selfish and yuck. If I could fanwave maybe this hate group isn't quite as evil as the Nazis I think I'd swallow it better

As for Felicity interrupting the West/Allen wedding, I considered it a bookend. Hate interrupted the first cermoney and love the second. And sure there was a selfish thinking about herself element in the Felicity interruption and (as we learn after the fact) some selfish save my wife element the first. But the basis of the interruptions were kill Kara and I want to marry you Oliver. So bookends. Hate/Love. 

For some reason, the non Arrow shows have Felicity slightly more bobbleheaded than Arrow does. She wasn't trying to be rude, she was living in the moment. 

Now it's up to The Flash show to give Iris&Barry their own special moment. That Crossover is about creating what works best for the story they decided to tell. 

For me Vibe being absent for a chunk of the time is what felt off for the Flash. And no Barry pep talk.  Iris was much more awesome than so far in my watch of The Flash and that was fun to see. And Caitlin having fun as killer frost was fun. Her and Mick on the first night was cute. You can probably tell I haven't watched The Flash this season. 

I cried for Stein. I knew it was coming but it tore me up. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by tarotx

[Delphi]

Awh, The Ray and Leo are so fucking adorable.   I want to watch them forever,  they should be on Lo t, like occasional guest stars who pop up every now and then to make out help out. 

[Featherhat]

Now we have two Rays, a Roy and two Rory's. I know they're comic names but that doesn't make it any less confusing. 

[BunsenBurner]

IMO There really is no etiquette, except for traditional, for a spur of the moment walking in a park wedding. The ONLY important part is the I PRONOUNCE YOU HUSBAND AND WIFE by a legal person, Diggle. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by BunsenBurner

[Morrigan2575]

I don't know if this was posted already.

Flash adjusted up, LoT stayed at 0.9

[Hiveminder]

8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I very much took what Felicity said to Oliver after he said he thought she didn't believe in marriage to be her real vows.  That she believed in him and knew their love married or unmarried was strong enough to see them through anything.  Those worked really well for me even if they weren't done in a formal way.  They sure convinced Olver.  I loved his sudden quick yes when he realized she was serious but I adored his lovesick double I do's as if he too considered her explanation as her vows.   I love that he was the only one of the four that said I do.  It's what you say so you can get married and he was so eager he just blurted them out.  So damn cute.    

Well, there is a precedent at least.  Last time Iris tried to elope she didn't invite Joe either.  

Given his schedule and some of the posts we saw from him around that time, he probably was.  

They were REALLY good at dropping out of the ceiling too.  That's a decent way down. I don't think they got the praise and attention they deserved for their contributions.  

About what Ray said.  I heard and also checked my closed caption to verify Ray say "embiggens" just in case that detail changes things for you.  You very well could be right with what he actually said but wanted to pass that on. 

Ray was his usual (since LoT) delightful self.  Ray's scene with the picture and then at the grave really were moving. 

He did say embiggens, which is even more adorable. 

4 hours ago, popgoesculture said:

And also, Felicity Smoak can totally override the door to the pipeline, show, so that was some lazy writing. You just have Iris try it for a second and that's it? Let your characters be capable and don't take away their abilities to suit the writing. Change the writing to fit them. 

I don’t think it was something Felicity could fix in the moment and without tools. The display said something about hydraulic pressure. That sounds like a mechanical issue. 

[KenyaJ]

13 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Grant's performance was so different in the church wedding scene compared to the shit one at the end. I think he wasn't a fan of the last one either. 

If he decided to protest by not giving a great performance, that seems like rubbing extra salt in the wounds of the Westallen fans. He's a professional, so it's hard for me to imagine him intentionally tanking a scene that momentous for his character. But it's also hard for me to imagine that he'd have such strong feelings one way or another about that scene. He certainly looked in good spirits in the pap photos.

Speaking of professionalism, Stephen was great in that entire scene, but in my next life, I want to come back reincarnated as the look Oliver gave Felicity just before Iris started her vows. A few weeks ago, a few of us were discussing in one of the episode thread how engaged Stephen always is in his scenes with Emily and that look was so brief, but conveyed so much about Oliver's feelings for Felicity and his hopes for their future. I could watch it over and over again a million times.

[Aeryn13]

Since noone had any problems distinguishing the evil counterparts from the known characters - noone side-eyed Oliver or Kara over having Nazi version, even Ollie and Kara themselves didn`t give it a moment`s brood - I do hope thhat is a lesson learned in terms of Black Siren. Sara might have been shaken a bit by Nazi!Lance but she clearly didn`t view him in any way as her father. 

Though I will say I found it a bit weird that Oliver could just walk into the freedom fighter bunker and noone made a fuzz. Wouldn`t he be the face of evil on Earth X, like literally? Only Freedom Fighter General Schott gave it a half-hearted comment. Other than that, those are some super-laid back freedom fighters. Someone who looks like the leader of their enemy walks in their base and noone reacts.   

[SmallScreenDiva]

11 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Though I will say I found it a bit weird that Oliver could just walk into the freedom fighter bunker and noone made a fuzz. Wouldn`t he be the face of evil on Earth X, like literally? Only Freedom Fighter General Schott gave it a half-hearted comment. Other than that, those are some super-laid back freedom fighters. Someone who looks like the leader of their enemy walks in their base and noone reacts. 

That bugged me, too. I hand-waved it with The Ray giving everybody at the base a heads-up before he and the others walked in. Still, I wish they had the extras look up and look at Oliver warily, you know. It looked like it was business as usual and it was weird to see that. 

[way2interested]

43 minutes ago, WindofChange said:

I loved reading these and love how people actually understood the depth of her scene where she protected Kara from EX-Oliver. It was so poignant and intense that a Jewish woman such as herself would be strong enough to stand up to a Nazi (that too, a Fuhrer). It makes me proud to be a fan of Felicity Smoak.

Yeah, besides the on the nose lines at the end of part 1, I liked how they interwove the plot/characters with the whole anti-Nazi theme like focusing on Alex, Iris, Sara, Jax, Stein, Oliver (only character to actually pointedly kill his double/direct enemy), and Felicity, Stein being the ultimate sacrifice that became pretty much the key to them winning, The Ray and Snart being other keys to their success along with them pushing the theme of love,  Felicity getting that scene, WestAllen and Olicity getting married in the end, etc. It was all actually kind of classy and came off as the writers putting more thought into the themes of the crossover than I honestly expected them too. I was ultimately surprised that besides delivering on the "bigger" plot aspects, they delivered on bigger emotional and thematic moments too. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by way2interested

[tv echo]

Another jab at Justice League...

What Crisis on Earth-X Got Right That Justice League Didn't
Charles Pulliam-Moore   November 30, 2017
https://io9.gizmodo.com/what-crisis-on-earth-x-got-right-that-justice-league-di-1820878679

Quote

As different as Justice League and Crisis on Earth-X are in shape and style, they’re both trying to tell similar stories. It’s just that Crisis tells that story much, much better. As dire as the DCEU may seem right now, not all hope is lost. Warner Bros.’ film division just needs to pay attention to what their television arm is doing right.

Though it’s now become a sprawling multiverse of interconnected heroes, villains, and crises on infinite earths, the Berlantiverse began small with a man and a bow. The scope of Arrow’s first seasons pales in comparison to what it’s become more recently, but by gradually building up its characters and the world they live in, the show was able to set the stage for things to come as more and more of DC Comics’ mythos began to manifest itself.

In time, The Flash, Legends of Tomorrow, and Supergirl would follow suit with each successive show building on the foundation Arrow built, but the shows did more than simply grow the number of DC heroes you could see on television in a given week. Each of the CW’s cape shows put in the time and effort to ground their characters in worlds and situations that gave audiences a chance to understand them as both heroes and people. As insignificant as some of those those discrete character quirks might seem from episode to episode—Cisco likes bad puns, Oliver’s crap at expressing his feelings, etc.—they’re important when you’re leading up to something like Crisis. Because big crossovers that bring teams together to save the world inevitably get busy, messy, and difficult to connect to. You need that very simple—but very important—sense of humanity to cut through the massive set pieces and CG to remind you who these heroes are and why you care about them.

The CW (and CBS, for a season) did this by simply taking their time, a luxury uniquely afforded to them by the very nature of episodic content, but that doesn’t mean WB’s films can’t take note. It’s fair to say DC shot itself in the foot by trying to play catchup with Marvel and fast-tracking the DCEU. Batman v Superman crammed its titular heroes, Wonder Woman, Doomsday, Lex Luthor, Mother Boxes, and Steppenwolf into a single film without providing any legitimate sense of gravity to the story. As funny as “I thought she was with you” is as a line, it’s actually a pretty damning recognition of the fact that BvS handled its holy trinity like a bunch of random action figures thrown into a toy box and shaken around for fun. The initial joy of these things is seeing the characters on screen together running around and saving the world, but it’s the their interactions with one another that make the narratives compelling and robust.
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But camaraderie and rapport aren’t the only thing Crisis had in spades that Justice League generally lacks. A strong, tight plot is crucial to tying together something as large and potentially unwieldy as these tales. Because Justice League is mostly an origin story for three of its lead characters, by the time we get around to seeing them actually team up and save the world, the film feels overly long, as if it’s trying to do too many things at once. Not only does that hold the newer characters back from shining as bright as they could, but it makes the film’s villain feel like an afterthought.

By comparison, Crisis gets right down to business: When Nazis interrupt your wedding, you spring right into action, punching first and asking questions later. What Crisis’ plot lacks in grandiosity, it makes up for—literally—in heart. Barry and Iris’ wedding, the Nazi invasion, and the attempted murder of Supergirl all fit together neatly as a set of threats posed by the Earth-X villains. The danger posed by Crisis’ villains is evenly paced throughout the entirety of the event and by the time we actually see the two sides go to war, it feels like an appropriate culmination to an epic superhero journey.

Edited November 30, 2017 by tv echo

[lemotomato]

9 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Another jab at Justice League...

What Crisis on Earth-X Got Right That Justice League Didn't
Charles Pulliam-Moore   November 30, 2017
https://io9.gizmodo.com/what-crisis-on-earth-x-got-right-that-justice-league-di-1820878679

Though it’s now become a sprawling multiverse of interconnected heroes, villains, and crises on infinite earths, the Berlantiverse began small with a man and a bow. The scope of Arrow’s first seasons pales in comparison to what it’s become more recently, but by gradually building up its characters and the world they live in, the show was able to set the stage for things to come as more and more of DC Comics’ mythos began to manifest itself.

In time, The Flash, Legends of Tomorrow, and Supergirl would follow suit with each successive show building on the foundation Arrow built,

Really nice to see Arrow getting the recognition it deserves after a such a massive crossover event.