Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[apinknightmare]

11 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

The only character they can even do this with is The Flash, and that's because it's canon for him, so that gives me hope as well.

They can do it with whichever character they want to. 

Edited December 23, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Trini]

24 minutes ago, Chaser said:

"on a break".....shudder

Technically, I think they are the same thing. But I think if no other love interests are introduced during the break, I would probably just call it a separation. Exploring other options? Break up.

How I differentiate the two terms: a 'break-up' means one or both of them decide they shouldn't be a couple anymore; A 'separation' is when they are physically apart, maybe due to circumstances beyond their control.

Felicity broke up with Oliver when she couldn't take his issues anymore. Caitlin and Ronnie were separated when he was messed up because of Firestorm and thought dead. They picked up right where they left off when he was in his right mind and body again.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Trini

[ruby24]

2 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

They can do it with whichever character they want to. 

Yeah, but they'd have to change canon. They wouldn't have to with The Flash, that's part of his thing.

I guess they could probably do it with Superman too (if they have a Superman show, which I'm still hoping for).

6 minutes ago, kismet said:

I hesitate to take anything GB says about his direction or ideas for his shows with a grain of salt. Because right now beyond the crossovers and legal aspects of his TV universe I think the only thing he consistently does regarding Arrow or Flash is cash the checks they produce. He is too focused on his new babies or expanding his brand. And GB has always given better sound bytes that give his audience hope, while not forcing his writing teams to actual produce quality.

I have more hope with The Flash because it's his actual lifelong favorite superhero. He has more of a personal connection to the character. Maybe it's thin to pin hopes on that, but I think he does at least want to know more about what's going on with that one.

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, ruby24 said:

Yeah, but they'd have to change canon. They wouldn't have to with The Flash, that's part of his thing.

Well...I think we have four and a half seasons of Arrow that proves they don't care about canon. 

[Carrie Ann]

2 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Yeah, but they'd have to change canon. They wouldn't have to with The Flash, that's part of his thing.

There is no real "canon" for LoT; and Arrow left any GA comic canon in the dust a long, long time ago. There is no "canon" these shows are beholden to that would require "change," and if there were, killing Laurel was surely the most definite sign that Arrow is off any sort of beaten path, no?

[ComicFan777]

*Bangs head against desk* whenever people say canon dictates tv storytelling.

[ruby24]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

Well...I think we have four and a half seasons of Arrow that proves they don't care about canon. 

For Arrow. They've shown more of a loyalty to aspects of Flash canon though.

[Trini]

In other news, I was hoping they'd release the promos for Arrow and Legends by now. Why would they wait another week? All the shows are coming back the same week, right?

[Carrie Ann]

5 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

For Arrow. They've shown more of a loyalty to aspects of Flash canon though.

I think the confusion here is that you said that Barry was the only one who could be the married superhero, because of canon. So if we agree that the other shows don't follow canon, then any of the other heroes could also be married, right?

Edited December 23, 2016 by Carrie Ann

[statsgirl]

I have a hard time seeing Barry as married because emotionally he's still that 12 year old boy, not to mention that's how Grant Gustin plays him the best (see the ice cream scene from the Supergirl crossover last season).  To give him the maturity a married man needs would almost require a personality transplant.  And Iris would have to stop giving  him pep talks all the time, and then what would she have to do?

[jay741982]

14 hours ago, Trini said:

[UGH. Still kinda pissed about they did to Sarah at the end - don't get me started!]

So am I. There was no reason to do what they did to her! The ending was not Satisfying to me. I wanted the ending with the Nice house, White picket fence and Charah Babies!

[Proteus]

I just don't think Westallen is held to some higher standard and importance by the network than any other couple on CW or these super hero shows. I'm sorry but I do not think that canon matters. Even to Flash PTB. I know some think Barry/Iris are 100% protected to be a couple forever because of canon but I don't think so. Comic book canon changes all the time. Iris has died before in the comics. I don't even think Barry and Iris are together anymore because DC has done so many reboots. So there's really no canon IMO that the show needs to be strictly held to.

[jay741982]

14 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I've decided  very firmly that kisses are magic and after they kissed on the beach, she got all her memories back.  No one can tell me differently.    

LOL that's what I told myself but I wanted to SEE her Remember GUH I LOVED Her and Chuck together.  She was so gorgeous and Bad ass.

[BkWurm1]

9 hours ago, CooperTV said:

Time-travel in Doctor Who is different from any other canon about time-travel because it's stated from the very beginning (at least in the NuWho of RTD's variety) that there's fixed  points in time you can't stop from happening. I think the Doctor had this issue already in The Fires of Pompeii, where the Pompeii catastrophe is caused by the hostile aliens but he's unable to prevent it from happening because it's such an influential historical event. The Waters of Mars is inverse of the same thing where the Doctor can't deal with his losses anymore and tries to revert what's essentially a fixed point in time, and again, is unable to do so due to timeline righting itself via Adelaide executing her freedom to choose her own future (that was also determined and static in time).

Just a moment to pause and appreciate Waters of Mars.  It should have been such a cheesy episode but the moment he decided to screw the rules, the Doctor became scary and yeah, great episode.  

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

There is no such thing as the "Moonlighting Curse."

@BkWurm1 I'm surprised at you! You know better! There were at least two other shows airing around the same time that didn't get cancelled or worse when the two leads got together: Scarecrow & Mrs. King, Remington Steele. The reason for Moonlighting's issues were related to Shepard and Willis' behind the scenes shenanigans and their dislike for each other, and less so with Maddie and David finally getting to the Will they finally? Then there's also Shawn and Jules on Psych.

Let's just attribute to this need for these CW shows and their runners/writers for angst and inability to write romance as well as inability to translate it to the screen.

In my opinion.

I knew I should have put "Moonlighting Curse" in air quotes.  Don't worry, I haven't taken to believing it but sadly that anyone ever did was enough to continue to do an immense amount of damage.   

2 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Yeah, but they'd have to change canon. They wouldn't have to with The Flash, that's part of his thing.

I guess they could probably do it with Superman too (if they have a Superman show, which I'm still hoping for).

I have more hope with The Flash because it's his actual lifelong favorite superhero. He has more of a personal connection to the character. Maybe it's thin to pin hopes on that, but I think he does at least want to know more about what's going on with that one.

We got some of that on Lois & Clark but first we got fake marriages to frog eating clones and awful amnesia plots to delay everything.  But once they were actually finally married, I really enjoyed them as a couple.  But to be sure, it wasn't putting them together as a couple that dropped the ratings, but the ridiculous means they were trying to stall them from getting married.  

2 hours ago, ruby24 said:

For Arrow. They've shown more of a loyalty to aspects of Flash canon though.

That's the problem with using canon as an argument.  For every aspect of canon that they've kept, they've discarded that many more and there's no reason to think that they won't someday decide to bring back something discarded in the past and lose some aspects they'd previously kept.  Apart from speed for Barry and Arrows for Oliver, I think anything is on and off the table.  Even their own show canon.  

[catrox14]

48 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Just a moment to pause and appreciate Waters of Mars.  It should have been such a cheesy episode but the moment he decided to screw the rules, the Doctor became scary and yeah, great episode.  

 

 

Word. It's in my top 5 DW eps ever. Guest actress who played the captain was fantastic. I remember from ROME.    "I am the Time Lord Victorious and the Laws of Time will obey me!".  So great.

[Proteus]

Legends promo posted:

[Morrigan2575]

Soooo everyone but Arrow got a trailer this week?

[Chaser]

I'm totally shocked that Arrow is the last one to get theirs. 

[Morrigan2575]

The Sarcasm is Strong with this one.

[wonderwall]

Lol I'm actually not too upset. We all know that Arrow's promotion will be full of LL due to Chico's obvious hard on for her and tbh I can do without that. 

But yeah,  color me not surprised... 

[insomniadreams88]

I wonder if they're trying to cut the Arrow trailer to make it look like the leaked 510 spoilers are wrong ... and can't manage to do so.

It is good to see Rip again on LoT (I love Arthur Darvill, and I have to admit, his absence was made easier knowing it was for Broadchurch), but oh, poor Rip. 

[Chaser]

I'm not crazy excited to see the trailer, I'm just really amused at how predictable Chico is.

Regarding the LOT promo, its interesting to see the League of Doom not so doom-y. I know it's the vibe of the show but it's a little weird.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Chaser

[Velocity23]

Technically LOT returns before Arrow LOL. 

[tv echo]

Spoiler Room: Scoop on S.H.I.E.L.D., 12 Monkeys, Supergirl and more
NATALIE ABRAMS   DECEMBER 23, 2016 
http://ew.com/tv/2016/12/23/spoiler-room-shield-12-monkeys-supergirl/

Quote

Anything regarding Sanvers in 2B of Supergirl? — Ellen
Though there are a few bumps in the road ahead, Supergirl is truly investing in the Alex and Maggie dynamic. “The important thing is that we’re committed to this relationship and we’re committed to seeing it grow, change, blossom, and struggle, but also get stronger, deeper and more loving as we go forward,” EP Andrew Kreisberg says. “I don’t think people need to worry that suddenly this relationship is going to go by the wayside. It’s going to have it’s ups and downs, but we’re committed to Alex and Maggie — we’re as committed to Alex and Maggie as the audience is.”

I’m a bit confused: Is Arrow‘s John Jr. from Flashpoint the Connor Hawke we saw on Legends of Tomorrow? — RJ
You’re referring to Diggle’s future son we saw in the Legends episode “Star City 2046” last season, and the answer is basically still TBD. “We go back and forth on that,” EP Marc Guggenheim tells me. “That was certainly a notion of ours. It’s hard for me to honestly answer the question without committing to a version of time travel, because in order for that to be the case, then Flashpoint would’ve had to have happened. You start to get into the very, very complicated time travel rules that, quite frankly, I as a writer don’t have an appetite to answer unless we tell a story one day that deals with John Jr., and even then, I don’t know if we would directly address that issue head on. Anyone who watches Legends knows that, by design, we don’t spend a lot of time discussing temporal mechanics — some people like that and it annoys the hell out of other people.”

[tv echo]

Ouch - and I disagree...

Critics' Picks: The 10 Worst TV Shows of 2016
6:00 AM 12/23/2016 by Tim Goodman and Daniel Fienberg
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lists/worst-tv-shows-2016-critics-picks-958855/item/american-housewife-critics-worst-tv-2016-958857

Quote

DC’s Legends of Tomorrow
The CW
.  .  .
Let's begin by acknowledging that the second season of Legends of Tomorrow has been much better than the first, in that nobody has said the name "Vandal Savage." It's still a show of questionably developed characters — the frequency with which the characters played by Nick Zano and Brandon Routh serve the exact same purpose is absurd, while nobody seems to have the same chemistry with anybody from week to week — and its treatment of time travel and its paradoxes remains simplistic. I'm also barely sure what the Legends' big-picture goal is this season. But it's better.

But man, that first season could be the poster boy for how an ill-conceived, poorly depicted villain and a needlessly complicated core mission (plus Hawkman and Hawkgirl) can utterly cripple a show. There are elements here for something fun, but after 24 episodes, DC's Legends of Tomorrow remains the CW comic book show I mostly watch to avoid being confused during four-part crossover events. — D.F.

American Housewife
Conviction
Criminal Minds: Beyond Borders
DC’s Legends of Tomorrow
Feed the Beast
Fuller House
Pure Genius
Vinyl/Roadies
The Walking Dead
The X-Files

Edited December 24, 2016 by tv echo

[CooperTV]

17 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Let's begin by acknowledging that the second season of Legends of Tomorrow has been much better than the first, in that nobody has said the name "Vandal Savage."

Well, I at least gave a fig about that show and its characters and the dynamic between them in season 1. And this season they made up some new guy to replace Ray, and wrote off the half of characters I actually liked in the first place. It's maybe a better show in regards to the villain but it got worse in terms of everything else I actually care about as a viewer.

[tv echo]

The Hollywood Reporter's 2016 Women in Entertainment Power 100
6:00 AM 12/7/2016 by THR Staff
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lists/women-hollywood-thr-s-2016-women-entertainment-power-100-951621/item/diane-nelson-women-entertainment-2016-952562

Quote

Diane Nelson
President, DC Entertainment; president, Warner Bros. Worldwide Consumer Products
.  .  .
*New to list
Category: The Chiefs
With both Wonder Woman and Justice League rolling out, 2017 promises to be a watershed for Nelson's, 49, portfolio, which also includes eight DC-based TV shows, half of them powering The CW. Her proudest accomplishments of 2016 were the reboot of a comics line (titled DC Rebirth; more than 18 million comics have sold since summer) and the expansion of the Super Hero Girls line, which put out an animated movie and hit The New York Times best-seller lists with its graphic novels.
My first female role model "Wonder Woman, of course."
Worst thing about working in Hollywood “The temptation to get lost in the bubble of this industry, with all its privilege and outsized egos.”
Is there a glass ceiling? “If there is, it will be of my own making. I have experienced tremendous support and opportunity throughout my career. I remember to pay that forward whenever I can.”
*  *  *
Susan Rovner and Lisa Gregorian
Executive vp, development, Warner Bros. TV; co-president, Warner Horizon scripted TV; President and chief marketing officer, Warner Bros. TV
.  .  .
Category: The TV Set
Rovner, 47, scored a full-season order for Fox's Lethal Weapon, a series order for Kevin Williamson's Time After Time at ABC and a Training Day reboot at CBS. She negotiated the transfer of Supergirl from CBS (and L.A.) to The CW (and Vancouver), and on the cable side, she helped develop HBO ratings smash Westworld and landed a series pickup for John Wells' American Woman at TV Land. Oh, there's also WBTV's deal with Netflix for the Gilmore Girls revival. Gregorian, 52, meanwhile, oversees global marketing for more than 75 scripted and unscripted series and played a key role in securing the off-network syndication deal for the Chuck Lorre comedy Mom.
Is there a glass ceiling?
Rovner: "I work with some amazing and evolved men who look at women as equals. That said, yes."
Gregorian: "I don't think about it because I look forward, not up."

Edited December 24, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

TVOvermind 2016 Year in Review: The Best, the Worst, the Underrated, and the OMG 
Araceli Aviles+  December 23, 2016
http://www.tvovermind.com/tv-news/tvovermind-2016-year-in-review-the-best-the-worst-the-underrated-and-the-omg

Quote

3. Biggest OMG Moment
.  .  .
-Tiffany C.– I think the Arrow midseason finale ending was the most shocking of all. Laurel Lance is alive! How can this be?! I sense aliens, but I could be wrong.
.  .  .
-Araceli A.– Laurel Back From the Dead, Arrow: I was about 75% sure Laurel would end up in last year’s long-touted grave, but nothing could have prepared me for the last 10 seconds of the Season 5 midseason finale. The question is, it it really her? (I’m also about 75% sure we can put her return on Barry’s less than stellar Flashpoint drama).
*  *  *
5. Most Improved Show
.   .  .
-Tiffany C.– Arrow has definitely improved in their current season. I watched a few episodes in the past from time to time and never really jumped on the Team Arrow bandwagon. That is, until recently when Flashpoint and the crossover of all crossovers happened. Hope it can stay on track in the new year and in the years to come.
.  .  .
-Nick H.– Gotham: In 2016, Gotham embraced its crazy side with incredible results. Season 2’s “Wrath of the Villains” and Season 3’s “Mad City” took Gotham’s best feature and amplified it. The evolution of Barbara, Penguin, Riddler, and the introduction of the Mad Hatter have improved Gotham leaps and bounds.

-Chris K.– Arrow/Supergirl: Arrow Season 4 and Supergirl Season 1 both received fairly mixed critical receptions last fall and into this spring, and while I don’t agree with all of the criticisms lodged against the two shows, I can still acknowledge that both superhero series had some kinks that they needed to work out before they returned in the fall. Fortunately, Arrow and Supergirl have entered their fifth and second seasons, respectively (and Supergirl’s first season ever on The CW), stronger and more focused than ever, easily earning the titles of The CW’s best superhero series. For Arrow, it’s been a return to the show’s darker, more grounded roots that has led to its creative resurgence, as the series’ stakes feel bigger than ever while the threat to Oliver and his team is more personal. Meanwhile, Supergirl has become more streamlined (spending limited time at Cat Co., moving Winn over to the DEO), comic book-y (the fantastic introductions of Superman and Mon-El, the alien bar now serving as a main location), and socially relevant (Alex’s coming-out story, alien rights serving as the main conflict for the first half of the season). Plus, Supergirl’s move from CBS over to The CW has allowed it to focus less on the villain-of-the-week format and dig deeper into the show’s rich cast of characters, and it’s been paying off wonderfully.
*  *  *
6. Biggest Show Fail
.  .  .
-Chris K.– Flashpoint, The Flash: Flashpoint may be an epic and important story to tell in The Flash comics, but for the CW superhero series, the time-bending storyline has caused nothing but problems. While the cracks of The Flash’s storytelling began to show in Season 2, they’ve been fully on display throughout the show’s third season as a result of Flashpoint. Not only is Barry, the show’s main character, presented as stupid, selfish, and irresponsible, but the series tries to come up with half-baked reason after half-baked reason to excuse Barry’s awful behavior. Meanwhile, supporting players like Cisco and Wally have been a drag as they attempt to re-adjust to their post-Flashpoint lives. And do we really need another Speedster villain (especially one that looks like a cheap Transformer)? I’m already tired of Savitar.
*  *  *
8. Best Returning Show
.  .  .
-Tiffany C.–Suits, The Flash, Legends of Tomorrow! There’s so many to choose from! Though if I have to pick one, I’d have to go with The Flash. It just keeps getting better and better with each episode. I look forward to the day when Caitlin will be able to use her powers to help Barry fight evil meta-humans and maybe get a nice suit of her own. I love me some Killer Frost!
*  *  *
9. Most Underrated Show
.  .  .
-Tiffany C.– Agent Carter. A friend of mine used to love watching that show before it got cancelled by ABC. It has a female secret agent who’s not afraid of anything and she kicks butt. If the show were around the time when I was a little girl, I’d want to grow up to be like Peggy Carter. Secret S.H.I.E.L.D agent thing aside, obviously.

Edited December 24, 2016 by tv echo

[jay741982]

Flash isn't the best but when will it get through that there are many speedsters villains because Barry is one as well? It's in the comics along with the fact there are more than one good guy(and Girl) speedsters

[Velocity23]

2 hours ago, jay741982 said:

Flash isn't the best but when will it get through that there are many speedsters villains because Barry is one as well? It's in the comics along with the fact there are more than one good guy(and Girl) speedsters

I would guess the problem is the same beats throughout the season with the villain speedsters. And maybe it works in the comics but you need some variety for TV. Arrow wasn't always successful with its villains but they changed it up. I gave it props for that. 

[BkWurm1]

At the very least let Barry fight a speedster who also shoots laser beams from his eyes.  Just something for variety@!

[Primal Slayer]

It doesnt help that they took 2 of Flash's biggest rouges and turned them into good guys and off of his show. 

[tv echo]

Which TV characters belong on the naughty list?
SCREENER STAFF   DECEMBER 24, 2016
http://screenertv.com/television/do-barry-allen-octavia-blake-naughty-list/

Quote

Mon-El, ‘Supergirl’
... SUPER NICE. We were totally scared Mon-El (Chris Wood) would turn out to be a villain sent to ruin Kara’s (Melissa Benoist) life on earth, but he actually turned out to be a really cool dude. So far, he seems like a fun-loving, fast-talking, no-so-terrible alien with some pretty sizzling chemistry with Kara. Now if only he can stay that way — and come clean about why other aliens are hunting him down…
*  *  *
Barry Allen, ‘The Flash’
... HI-SPEED NAUGHTY. It’s been a wild ride for Barry Allen (Grant Gustin) since getting his speedster powers on “The Flash.” Unfortunately, his biggest enemy seems to be himself — as he’s shown, time and again, that he’ll travel back to the past to change things with little regard to who it will impact. So Barry, you’re on the naughty list this year. We’re hopeful you’ve seen the error of your ways and can get back on the nice list next year, though.

[ruby24]

I think committing to the "big bad" for each season is a problem, because it becomes just way too predictable. He runs wild for 23 episodes, they talk about having to defeat him, he's defeated in the finale.

They need to figure out some way to change that up. Maybe do the 24 thing, where they always had one villain for a certain amount of episodes, which led to a bigger villain, which led to the mastermind over the course of the whole season. Or...I know this might seem like sacrilege but maybe don't do a season long villain?

Is there anything SO wrong with having villains of the week and focusing mostly on the characters lives for like, one season? It's very old school to do that kind of superhero show, I know (more like Lois & Clark back in the day), but it could certainly allow for keeping the lighter tone intact. And it could make for some potentially great standalone episodes, since you're focusing more on simply making each individual episode good. It could allow more of the classic comics villains to come back for more than just one episode, too.

I don't know- maybe fans would revolt at that idea. Too old-fashioned.

Edited December 24, 2016 by ruby24

[AyChihuahua]

On 12/23/2016 at 3:00 AM, Trini said:

Chuck, but then I think Fringe might have kept Olivia and Peter together, too? (I didn't watch the last season.)

Neither of those shows were on the CW. There is literally not one CW show with a known ship that didn't have them break up after getting together. 

(And Olivia was replaced by Fauxlivia, which caused a breakup just as they were about to get together and then Peter was wiped from existence after they got together, which, you know, puts a damper on a relationship.)

On 12/23/2016 at 3:24 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Didn't they even survive Baby Mama Drama?  Sigh.  I've never seen it but Nikita was held out as hope that Olicity might be allowed to survive theirs.  NOPE!

They took a break bc of the BMD, though. It's been awhile but I believe Nikita basically told him to go hang out with the kid, and I think in-show it lasted a couple months.

Edited December 24, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[LeighAn]

Yeah after BMD they were essentially not together in the official sense but still loved each other. It's probably how the Arrow writers should have handled their own BMD but they had other agendas. 

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

At the very least let Barry fight a speedster who also shoots laser beams from his eyes.  Just something for variety@!

He can always mix it with Supergirl (or her cousin) if he wants to do that.  She can literally keep up with him speed-wise, and she's got that heat-vision thing going on.

[legaleagle53]

On 12/23/2016 at 1:29 PM, ruby24 said:

What if it's a separation caused by something else entirely? Like Iris gets tossed into another timeline or the future (like her comics character). Candice Patton can still be on the show by having one of her doppelgangers show up and then Barry and Iris-2 (or whatever number she is) have a new dynamic or something for a while.

But while something like that's going on, Barry and Iris aren't actually broken up but they are separated because Iris is missing. That's how I would do it if I were them.

Possible?

The only character they can even do this with is The Flash, and that's because it's canon for him, so that gives me hope as well.

A married superhero?  There's also Ray Palmer (Atom) as comic-book canon.  In fact, his wedding with with Jean Palmer was a major highlight of the Silver-Age Justice League.

And the way Iris found out that she was married to the Flash in the comics is rather interesting.  Barry never told her before they were married; in fact, he had planned to do so on their wedding night, but got sidetracked from doing it that night, so for many years, he kept her in the dark (or so he thought), largely for her own protection..

What finally encouraged him to go for it was a visit from Jay Garrick with HIS wife Joan.  Joan had known about her husband's secret identity for years, and between the two of them, they convinced Barry that it would be safe to tell Iris the truth.  So that night, after Jay and Joan had gone back to their Earth, Barry finally told Iris the truth, and was astounded when she in turn informed him that she had known all along that he was the Flash, since he talked in his sleep (as she discovered on their wedding night).  She never let on that she knew, however, because she understood why he hadn't told her and knew that he would tell her eventually when he was ready to do so.  Barry, of course, was overjoyed to know that she accepted him as the Flash and didn't hold it against him that he had never told her the truth before.  And of course, once they were on the same page regarding his secret identity, she became his staunchest supporter.

Edited December 24, 2016 by legaleagle53

[Trini]

8 hours ago, tv echo said:

Spoiler Room: Scoop on S.H.I.E.L.D., 12 Monkeys, Supergirl and more
NATALIE ABRAMS   DECEMBER 23, 2016 
http://ew.com/tv/2016/12/23/spoiler-room-shield-12-monkeys-supergirl/

Quote

 

I’m a bit confused: Is Arrow‘s John Jr. from Flashpoint the Connor Hawke we saw on Legends of Tomorrow? — RJ
You’re referring to Diggle’s future son we saw in the Legends episode “Star City 2046” last season, and the answer is basically still TBD. “We go back and forth on that,” EP Marc Guggenheim tells me. “That was certainly a notion of ours. It’s hard for me to honestly answer the question without committing to a version of time travel, because in order for that to be the case, then Flashpoint would’ve had to have happened. You start to get into the very, very complicated time travel rules that, quite frankly, I as a writer don’t have an appetite to answer unless we tell a story one day that deals with John Jr., and even then, I don’t know if we would directly address that issue head on. Anyone who watches Legends knows that, by design, we don’t spend a lot of time discussing temporal mechanics — some people like that and it annoys the hell out of other people.”

Wait --- (Not that it makes it better, but) So, they decided to change Diggle's child, and it's not even to eventually have Connor Hawke?? They got a "one free retcon card" and THAT is what they used it for?

[statsgirl]

Maybe they think their set-up is so perfect that the only thing they could think to retcon is something they thought doesn't matter.

If only they had retconned Oliver's lies.

[TrueMyth]

I bet they thought that they could have John Jr. be the Conor Hawke from LoT, but after the seasons aired someone pointed out the reasons why it doesn't work: 1) he'd be too old, 2) it means that Flashpoint happened before Flashpoint happened, making time travel all stupid, so now Marc is walking that side of things back.

Honestly, I think they simply didn't think about what it meant to rewrite a girl into a boy.  They saw it as a small detail that could change to show the ripples of Flashpoint without giving the Arrow canon too many narrative problems.

[kismet]

I also think because they got some rightfully deserved flack for erasing a female to give us another male - so my take is that MG saying this stuff about Conor in an interview is his passive-aggressive way of lashing out. The world did not universally praise them for eliminating a female for no good reason, so now you don't get to have Dig Jr be Conor Hawke anymore. Or maybe if we all behave, he might change his mind.

Seriously, whoever suggested to get rid of Lil Sara as part of Flashpoint should be fired or demoted. There were so many better things they could have done. Twins, Dig had an older child, etc. And even if they had wanted to get rid of Lil Sara, they could have had her die in a tragic accident - so at least it was not directly replacing a female.

[BkWurm1]

9 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I think committing to the "big bad" for each season is a problem, because it becomes just way too predictable. He runs wild for 23 episodes, they talk about having to defeat him, he's defeated in the finale.

They need to figure out some way to change that up. Maybe do the 24 thing, where they always had one villain for a certain amount of episodes, which led to a bigger villain, which led to the mastermind over the course of the whole season. Or...I know this might seem like sacrilege but maybe don't do a season long villain?

Is there anything SO wrong with having villains of the week and focusing mostly on the characters lives for like, one season? It's very old school to do that kind of superhero show, I know (more like Lois & Clark back in the day), but it could certainly allow for keeping the lighter tone intact. And it could make for some potentially great standalone episodes, since you're focusing more on simply making each individual episode good. It could allow more of the classic comics villains to come back for more than just one episode, too.

I don't know- maybe fans would revolt at that idea. Too old-fashioned.

Villain of the week every week would a bit much but there does need to be a better balance and variety to how the story is told.  For one, since we know the bad guy won't be stopped  til May, do we really need his reveal sp soon?

[kismet]

I personally think Alias had a good balance of rotating long standing villains, VOW and other recurring villains. Then again, it was a different type of show. But it worked, they had series long villains, season long villains & episode long arcs - which very little failures in any of the categories. I also think the Flarrowverse writers get too attached to certain villains and write them in for too many episodes. We all have Villains we love, but the writers have to be able to shift some of them out/in better. Someone like Tobia's church would have been great for a bring in a few weeks and then move him out to focus on his other criminal enterprises for a little bit. Instead they kill him for dumb reasons. Or perhaps its a contracts issue. I remember last season Arrow had all these guest stars for one episode arcs and they were underutilized. But perhaps it was all the actor was available to do.

I do think people are on to something when they mention making more a hierarchy of criminals. Have the teams defeat the middle management or the consultants, but leave the mastermind for the end.

As for Speedsters as the Flash's primary villain, I think that is because it works on a CGI & storyline level. BA does not have super powers beyond running fast. So yes, it's cheeky fun for him to run around stopping bullets & tying people up, though that seems too simple. But running is not a good superpower when going up against 90% of other superpowers. Not that I want to give the Flash writers slack, but who is a good match for a speedster? Another superpower would demolish him, going against metas is repetitive and against humans is boring - so they are limited to some degree. I actually would like to see them do a stretch of episodes where BA has no powers again or he finds himself in a dimension where everyone is a speedster. They have to readjust the playing field for him.

[Starfish35]

TVLine Readers' 2017 Wish List:

Agent Carter:

Quote

DAPHNE WISHES FOR…

“…a special 90 or 120-minute movie to tie up Agent Carter on Netflix.
I get that they (probably) won’t do a full series (the tone of their Marvel series is vastly different), but a special movie/event-type thing, I’d loooooooooooove that! Surely they can work that out with their Marvel TV peeps.”

http://tvline.com/gallery/tv-wish-list-2017/#!2/hayley-atwell-47/

Arrow:

Quote

CHRISTY WISHES FOR…

“…’Olicity’ to get back together! These two have been through a lot, and I’d love to see them finally find some happiness together.”

http://tvline.com/gallery/tv-wish-list-2017/#!3/wish-list-arrow-oliver-felicity/

The Flash:

Quote

SHELLY WISHES FOR…

“…[The Flash‘s] Barry Allen to be happy.”

http://tvline.com/gallery/tv-wish-list-2017/#!11/wish-list-flash/

Arrow/Flash/Legends of Tomorrow

Quote

AARON WISHES FOR…

“…Katie Cassidy to return to either Arrow, Flash[or] Legends of Tomorrow full-time as Laurel Lance.”

http://tvline.com/gallery/tv-wish-list-2017/#!17/wish-list-arrow-laurel/

Supergirl:

Quote

JESSICA WISHES FOR…

“…Cat Grant to return [to Supergirl] in all her glory.”

http://tvline.com/gallery/tv-wish-list-2017/#!23/wish-list-supergirl/

Smallville (sort of):

Quote

RAY WISHES FOR…

“…Allison Mack [to] appear on This Is Us as Kevin’s new love interest! Chloe and Ollie FOREVER!!!”

http://tvline.com/gallery/tv-wish-list-2017/#!24/smallville-8/

[wonderwall]

The one that said "for Barry Allen to be happy" made me roll my eyes... Even though he fucked up majorly he still got everything he wanted. I'm sure he's pretty fucking happy right now... 

Edited December 26, 2016 by wonderwall

[CooperTV]

1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

“…Katie Cassidy to return to either Arrow, Flash[or] Legends of Tomorrow full-time as Laurel Lance.”

1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

“…[The Flash‘s] Barry Allen to be happy.”

ETA

Quote

"Klaus and Caroline to finally be together, either in the Vampire Diaries finale or The Originals Season 4. There are still many stories to tell for this relationship.”

Edited December 25, 2016 by CooperTV

[Primal Slayer]

That is the best wish on there, bring KC back full time. I endorse it. 

[Chaser]

What would KC come back too? I'm genuinely curious about what you think Laurel would contribute? The DA position had been filled. 

Spoiler

And a nuBC seems to be coming.

Which makes me wonder why a big KC fan would want her on any of the shows. They said they had reached a plateau for the character but 

Spoiler

Both positions are being filled

That tells me the actress was the one they wanted out.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Chaser

[insomniadreams88]

I'm honestly most interested in seeing KC on LoT because I'm very curious to see how they'd bring her in.

Time travel? But which Laurel? Would they remember what she was like in the earlier seasons or would they retcon that like they did other aspects of her? (I wish they'd remember that she actually wasn't always the Laurel they remember because I began to semi-like who she became because I didn't like who she used to be at all.) 

Another Earth's LL again? But would she be good or evil? And I don't want LL to become a Harrison Wells situation with different Earths' LLs showing up. 

It's tricky, but for now, I'm at least semi-interested in seeing her on LoT once. Arrow again? No. The Flash? Maybe one or two episodes.