Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[dtissagirl]

9 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

That's not the point.  I think we're all aware that the shows share some of the same writers, and at the very least that MG works on both Arrow and LoT.  My point was that I personally appreciate how LoT makes a conscious effort to mix up their cast interactions, and it's something I think would improve Arrow quite a bit, instead of having them constantly locked into the same character interactions all the time.  Shake things up!  Move the pieces around the board.  But for whatever reason, even if it is some of the same writers, it doesn't seem to be  something they are comfortable doing. 

I think the differential might be Phil Klemmer, who seems to be EONS better than MG/WM at managing too many characters. He definitely knows how to give a team that team-ness feel, that Arrow seems to have forgotten how to do.

The Flash also suffered a bunch with character management in S2, when Jaime Paglia and Geoff Johns left that writers room too. I don't think Arrow ever had a good team writer in the staff. Maaaaaybe Lana Cho, who was around in S1 [she's on Timeless now], but nobody else after her.

[arjumand]

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

Alan Sepinwall: Even if we’re on the road to getting Fun Cisco back, I’m still mostly frustrated with how the creative team handled both Flashpoint and its aftermath. I groaned when Cisco came to realize that he, too, had potentially made things worse by going back in time — especially since the two situations aren’t comparable (Cisco didn’t go back intending to change things; Barry did) — as it felt like the path of least resistance towards getting back to the friendship status quo, letting Barry off the hook rather than letting him redeem himself. (Though, to be fair, he was willing to sacrifice himself to save the planet before the other heroes told him not to.) But it’s also tough to make this such a key part of a crossover involving a team of superheroes who regularly travel into the past and make small alterations to history without upending the space-time continuum.

This, so much. I can't describe how much that bit with Cisco annoyed me - the dialogue was so clunky, it landed like many anvils crashing together. I felt like one of the snarky princesses in one of the Shrek movies - "I GET IT. What's not to get?" Cisco's breakthrough, though I disagree with him, could have been manifested with a growing look of horror on Cisco's face; then maybe some sparse dialogue, not repeating the point over and over again. It reminded me of one of those episodes of Supernatural (when was I still watching) in which Dean is made to sound like a moron so that a situation can be laid out a million times for the audience.

And while the episode was exciting and moved at a fast pace, once again, the characterization was iffy for me. It seems that Oliver and Thea are the only ones allowed to have emotions. Like has been mentioned, Felicity greeted their return with a shrug. And even though she kicked ass, it was all within the spectrum of plucky comic relief. It was all surface, to me - very shiny, very pretty, but no depth.

Oliver and Barry get the shared manpain, though I must say I felt much more for Oliver saying goodbye to his not-real parents than Barry and any of his self-pitying crying jags.

I can't say I saw anything different about Felicity in this episode, as compared to recent episodes of Arrow or the crossover - sure, there was MORE of her, and she was doing stuff, but, as I said - comic relief. Even Cisco had more emotional depth than her, with his grief over his brother. And then, once again, we let Barry off the hook. Just, come on! I don't even agree with Sepinwall's point that he offered to sacrifice himself - there was no way the others were going to let him do it.

[quarks]

6 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

That's not the point.  I think we're all aware that the shows share some of the same writers, and at the very least that MG works on both Arrow and LoT.  My point was that I personally appreciate how LoT makes a conscious effort to mix up their cast interactions, and it's something I think would improve Arrow quite a bit, instead of having them constantly locked into the same character interactions all the time.  Shake things up!  Move the pieces around the board.  But for whatever reason, even if it is some of the same writers, it doesn't seem to be  something they are comfortable doing. 

I wasn't reacting just to that, but to the ongoing statements made here over the past two seasons about how much better the LoT writers are than the Arrow and Flash writers. 

But to the second point, in terms of mixing up their cast interactions - Arrow has done that or tried to do that on numerous occasions, including this season, where Arrow has developed a new to this season interaction between Quentin/Thea, new to this season interactions between Diggle/Wild Dog, new to this season interactions between Felicity and Ragman, and, er, not to bring up what seems to be a sore point for many posters here, Oliver finally starting to open up with someone new, Susan, along with several other new group interactions.  (Also apparently there's been some interactions between Felicity and a guy I can never remember, but I can't count those since I keep forgetting them.) In just this past episode, Arrow put Oliver, Diggle, Thea, Sara and Ray together as a fighting group - the first time the show has ever put that particular group together as a fighting team, although the show has tried various combinations of the five of them before this.  And Arrow also shook things up and moved pieces around the board this season by flipping the Team Arrow of season four (Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, Thea, Laurel) into a new Team Arrow for season five (Oliver, Felicity, Curtis, Wild Dog, Evelyn, Ragman, with Diggle not returning to the team until episode 5.) And, this season, Arrow's been sending out different pairs/groups - sometimes sending Evelyn out with Wild Dog, sometimes with Ragman, for instance. 

Now, I think we can argue about how well these different interactions/shaking things up have gone. For instance, I love the Thea/Quentin interactions, but I've been less enthralled by the Diggle/Wild Dog interactions. And I think it's safe to say that the fan response has been mixed, with some fans really liking Team Baby Arrows (or at the very least, Ragman) with other fans complaining that they miss Original Team Arrow scenes and want Oliver/Felicity back, and still other fans complaining that the Thea/Quentin scenes are a poor substitute for Laurel/Quentin and Sara/Quentin scenes.  But I'd say that the writers have definitely shaken things up/moved the pieces around the board. 

[Starfish35]

I'm not talking about new characters, and I haven't watched any of season five except the crossover.  I'm talking about the main cast.  Why, for example, couldn't we ever get Thea and Felicity together (the Bee episode is the only episode I remember them having any type of lengthy interaction).  Or Thea and Diggle?  How about more Felicity and Diggle - fans have been screaming for that?  Why not, before Laurel was killed off, more Felicity and Laurel scenes to support that supposedly great friendship they had? (I couldn't believe they missed the golden opportunity to have Felicity and Laurel commiserating over their parents dating.)  How about Diggle and Quintin?  Or Diggle and Curtis? Or hey, Thea and Curtis?  Or Curtis and Quintin?  That's what I'm talking about - not sticking a bunch of new characters in the middle of everything.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Starfish35

[dtissagirl]

LoT seems to have lucked out on much better newbies than Arrow too. Both Nate and Amaya feel way more three dimensional than Wild Dog/Evelyn/Ragman/new DA/Mayo/Susan/, and I think that's because LoT took the time to explain who they were, and why are they now part of this narrative. That makes a whole lotta difference, so when they paired up Amaya and Nate to go find Lance Henriksen in the 80s in Washington, it didn't feel like "ugh, this noob scene", it felt like the Legends team splitting up to cover a mission.

[Velocity23]

I never realized how Saras WC suit is becoming so similar to her BC suit.

[Starfish35]

That suit redesign was new for these episodes.  But yes, they redid the top to be more like her old BC costume, except without the cleavage.  

Edited December 2, 2016 by Starfish35

[Velocity23]

I only noticed it now as I saw an instagram video caity posted

[Morrigan2575]

Oh wow, that really does look like the BC costume. She even has a batter on her legs. I loved her old BC costume, it was one of their best costume designs, IMO

[Sakura12]

Forever had a great ensemble cast and even the character I didn't care for when show started I liked in the end. They had the two leads but everyone had their time to shine. That's what I'm seeing in Legends especially this season. I do think there's a little too much focus on Nate. He's not that great. He's the Legends Wild Dog. 

As for Sara's suit, it is looking more and more like her Black suit.  However she doesn't wear that often on LoT. They mostly dress in period appropriate clothes.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Sakura12

[Starfish35]

19 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Oh wow, that really does look like the BC costume. She even has a batter on her legs. I loved her old BC costume, it was one of their best costume designs, IMO

A batter? *confused*

I'm sorry - I just realized you meant pattern.  I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to be snarky.  It just threw me off for a moment.

But no, I think the pattern is the same as it's always been.  The old BC pants had a criss cross pattern (the fishnet design).  The WC pants had a diagonal stripes pattern, and I think that what they still have.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Starfish35

[Morrigan2575]

Yeah pattern, not sure how the phone came up with batter.

I didn't mean it was the same pattern as her BC costume, that was a fishnet design. I just liked seeing the pattern on her legs, it seems more obvious now, maybe because I was looking for the details.

[Delphi]

What bothered me in the Flash portion was where Oliver was telling Barry how his parents died and Barry was acting genuinely shocked to find out that the Queen's lost their parents in horribly violent ways.   Like,  no shit Barry.  Maybe not Robert shooting himself but,  did he really think the ship wreck was peaceful.   And one of the wealthiest women in the country was stabbed in the middle of the street with a sword,  that probably made the news.  

Barry is so self involved that he really doesn't see how almost everyone in this universe has been dealt a worse hand then him. 

[Lokiberry]

4 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I found this line off-putting because my brain immediately went to "you mean it started with you screwing over your very own sister by screwing her boyfriend?" I just wish they took that out and just went with the "You ever think ..." I mean, they scrubbed the crazy Laurel/Oliver/Sara triangle by emphasizing Sara being lesbian than bi on the Arrow portion of the crossover, why even bring that up again on LOT? Because there's really no other "start" that I could think of that involved only them. 

 

But that's how it started; Oliver and Sara made a mistake, spent years suffering and in darkness because of it, and then came back and became heroes. By having her say, "it started with us", they are acknowledging Sara's earned role in the Flarrowverse. I appreciate that because it wasn't that long ago that they ripped the costume, name, and legacy off her back and gave it to her useless sister because comics.

As for scrubbing the triangle because Sara's a lesbian, they didn't do that. They said "prefer" not exclusive to.

[Starfish35]

I think, because of those writer tweets that were copied here implying that there was a network mandate that Sara only be interested in women from now on, it comes across a little more...significant, shall we say, than it might otherwise.  I know, at least for myself, I might have raised an eyebrow but not thought much about it, if I had not seen those.  But knowing about them, it's hard not to wonder. At least for me. 

[bettername2come]

2 hours ago, Delphi said:

What bothered me in the Flash portion was where Oliver was telling Barry how his parents died and Barry was acting genuinely shocked to find out that the Queen's lost their parents in horribly violent ways.   Like,  no shit Barry.  Maybe not Robert shooting himself but,  did he really think the ship wreck was peaceful.   And one of the wealthiest women in the country was stabbed in the middle of the street with a sword,  that probably made the news.  

Barry is so self involved that he really doesn't see how almost everyone in this universe has been dealt a worse hand then him. 

In fairness to Barry, the news that Oliver's father committed a murder-suicide in front of Oliver in order to save him is a new, shocking and more violent death than he's been led to believe, and Oliver sharing the truth about it is a big deal, since he's only told a few people. And Barry was in a coma when Moira was murdered, so he may not have gotten the story outside of "Oliver's mother was stabbed to death in front of him."

[SmallScreenDiva]

39 minutes ago, Lokiberry said:

But that's how it started; Oliver and Sara made a mistake, spent years suffering and in darkness because of it, and then came back and became heroes. By having her say, "it started with us", they are acknowledging Sara's earned role in the Flarrowverse. I appreciate that because it wasn't that long ago that they ripped the costume, name, and legacy off her back and gave it to her useless sister because comics.

As for scrubbing the triangle because Sara's a lesbian, they didn't do that. They said "prefer" not exclusive to.

I'm glad the quote worked for you. That's just now how I took it.

Given the recent "mandate" for Sara to be more lesbian than bi (there's a link somewhere on this board to a tweet from an LOT writer saying something along those lines) that's just how I interpreted that scene. I don't care if Sara is bi or lesbian, my main point is that the toxic setup of the original main romance was scrubbed. 

[Primal Slayer]

Since they broadcasted the heroes to the entire US at the end on the news, how is no one in Star City sitting up at seeing Sara Lance alive and well and suited up? 

[apinknightmare]

6 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Since they broadcasted the heroes to the entire US at the end on the news, how is no one in Star City sitting up at seeing Sara Lance alive and well and suited up? 

Was that broadcast? I thought the president said something during her speech about everyone's contributions having to remain a secret.

Anyway - the people of Star City wouldn't be surprised she's alive - Oliver threw a coming back from the dead party for her back in S2. Her death in S3 wouldn't be widely publicized because they buried her in a wooden box so Laurel could keep it a secret from Quentin.

[Primal Slayer]

Just now, apinknightmare said:

Was that broadcast? I thought the president said something during her speech about everyone's contributions having to remain a secret.

Anyway - the people of Star City wouldn't be surprised she's alive - Oliver threw a coming back from the dead party for her back in S2. Her death in S3 wouldn't be widely publicized because they buried her in a wooden box so Laurel could keep it a secret from Quentin.

There was a camera crew there filming it

[lemotomato]

Didn't Old Glasses Guy say they covered up evidence of the Invasion? Did the civilians even know the world needed to be saved by the heroes?

Edited December 3, 2016 by lemotomato

[Proteus]

8 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

There was a camera crew there filming it

There was no camera crew filming anything.

[Primal Slayer]

So what is in the corner of the picture?

[apinknightmare]

5 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

So what is in the corner of the picture?

Maybe a wide shot picked up a second camera? The president specifically said "Although your brave efforts must remain a secret..." so...no way was that being broadcast. 

[insomniadreams88]

Maybe a recording for the government? 

Or the "secret" part only refers to their identities because of their masks ... never mind the ones without masks? 

[Delphi]

2 hours ago, bettername2come said:

In fairness to Barry, the news that Oliver's father committed a murder-suicide in front of Oliver in order to save him is a new, shocking and more violent death than he's been led to believe, and Oliver sharing the truth about it is a big deal, since he's only told a few people. And Barry was in a coma when Moira was murdered, so he may not have gotten the story outside of "Oliver's mother was stabbed to death in front of him."

You know,  I recalled after posting about the coma.  But I decided not to mention it.   Because he still knew that Moira was stabbed in front of Oliver and Thea.   And he honestly,  my point remains.   Everything that's happened to Oliver,  Thea, Sara and Quinton is absolutely horrific.   What happened to Rory and Kara is absolutely devastating.  But no, the Allen's beingmurdered years apart and him getting adopted by a great guy and making it with his daughter is absolutely awful for him,  way more than anyone else has suffered ever. 

[Mellowyellow]

I think Barry is a Mummas Boy and based on that I can kind of understand why Barry did what he did to create Flashpoint. Not everyone would react the same in his situation, some will react better, some worse but I've kinda accepted that his mum's death was a HUGE thing to Barry, something that he personally could not get over. Yes I think some of the others have suffered more horrible fates and have definitely risen above it but I think this thing with his mother is Barry's Achilles heel and then watching his father died, he freaked out and hence Flashpoint. 

Haha I have had a lot of experience with boys and their mum's recently so I am feeling sympathetic towards Barry. 

[RedVitC]

It's not just that Barry's mother died, though. She died under mysterious circumstances, his dad went to prison for it and no one believed him (except Iris). In one of the episodes (5) Iris says that people laughed at him, that he was analyzed by shrinks. so Barry grew up seeing shrinks and trying to hold on to his sanity while all the grownups including Joe were trying to make him believe that he didn't see what he saw. While they've presented a more ideal situation later, the pilot makes it seem (to me anyway) that Joe wasn't easy on Barry when it comes to his mom and dad while growing up.

(from IMDB)

Quote

Barry: Of course you don't believe me. You never believe me.

Joe: Okay. You want to do this now, out here? Fine. Mardon is dead. There is no controlling the weather, Barry - just like there was no lightning storm in your house that night. It was your brain helping a scared little boy accept what he saw.

Barry: My dad did not murder my mother.

Joe: Yes, he did! Your dad killed your mother, Barry! I am sorry, son, but I knew it, the jury knew it, now he's paying for what he did.

Iris: Dad, enough!

Joe: Unh-uh, Iris. I have done my best to take care of you since that night, and I have never asked for anything in return, not even a thank you, but what I do ask now is that you, for once in your life, see things as they are.

I'm not saying that his pain is more than anyone else's , but the damage all that can do to an eleven year old can't be underestimated. It's a miracle he turned out to be such a bouncy person.

[statsgirl]

When Thea was 12, her father and brother died at sea and her mother went into such a depression that she abandoned Thea and stayed in her room all day.

When Felicity was even younger, she thought her father abandoned them (true in the sense that he knew where they were and didn't make contact) and her mother started working long hours to support them so she practically had to raise herself.  Roy's' father wasn't' around and his mother was a drug addict. Sin's mother died and she lost her father when not much older than Barry.

The problem is that what happened to other people was as bad or worse. It was tragic what happened to Barry but he had Joe, a substitute father, and Iris, his foster sister. A loving substitute parental figure is the best mitigator of the damage (according to attachment theory).

[RedVitC]

I'm definitely not trying to argue that he's had it worse if that's the impression that I gave :) I was reacting to the idea that his life was so wonderful afterwards that I picked up between the lines of some posts (maybe incorrectly I admit). He's certainly lucky that his best friend's dad was willing to let him come live with them, but his childhood was not easy or ideal. When the new grown up in your life is sending you to shrinks and trying to convince you of something that you do not fundamentally believe, that in itself can cause damage. I'm not trying to blame Joe, btw, the Wests are my favorites and it understandable that Joe didn't believe it.

But I fear I've opened a can of worms so I'm going to leave it at this...

[SmallScreenDiva]

So LOT made it to the Daily Nielsen Top Five. Did Supergirl and Flash make it? I know Arrow didn't. 

 

[Chaser]

Supergirl and Flash made the Top 5.

[kes0704]

The shows social media engagement with fandom across the board has been pretty awful this season and it didn't do them any favours to have MG antagonising people on Twitter in the run up to the episode airing. If he hadn't chosen that moment to stir things up more fans might have used the Arrow100 hashtag rather than Olicity Is Real to get the show to trend.  

I understand that EP's and writers must get frustrated with the criticisms of the show, but the way they are handling things and responding is not helping.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Huh, so only Arrow didn't make the Nielsen Top Five? The show that consistently made it last season, without any efforts? That's gotta hurt. Can't say there's isn't a petty part of me that's going "I told you so" to the TPTB. I really think FB plays a huge part here, not just Twitter. And TPTB has been told for YEARS how toxic the Arrow official account has been for Olicity and female fans. 

[Chaser]

With how active twitter was, I was expecting it too. What's the Facebook contribution to the ratings?

[TrueMyth]

I'm not talking about new characters, and I haven't watched any of season five except the crossover.  I'm talking about the main cast.  Why, for example, couldn't we ever get Thea and Felicity together (the Bee episode is the only episode I remember them having any type of lengthy interaction).  Or Thea and Diggle?  How about more Felicity and Diggle - fans have been screaming for that?  Why not, before Laurel was killed off, more Felicity and Laurel scenes to support that supposedly great friendship they had? (I couldn't believe they missed the golden opportunity to have Felicity and Laurel commiserating over their parents dating.)  How about Diggle and Quintin?  Or Diggle and Curtis? Or hey, Thea and Curtis?  Or Curtis and Quintin?  That's what I'm talking about - not sticking a bunch of new characters in the middle of everything.

I think Arrow suffers because the writers conceive of it as a one lead show, not an ensemble.  Several people like to bring up "it's Oliver's story" as a defense against why this or that other character doesn't get more focus.  However, I think you are completely correct that they need to write more scenes with different characters interacting.  The Bee episode was really the only one that has done this in recent seasons, putting Lance into a lair-support role for the first time and pairing him with Curtis as well as Thea having major scenes with Donna and Felicity.

This season, I'd really have liked to see the newbies interacting with different characters.  I think Evelyn and Felicity could have been interesting.  Evelyn has made cracks about dating that could have developed into a window into Felicity's romantic headspace and fleshed out exactly why a 17 year old who wants to talk about boys is staying up all night fighting street thugs.  I'd like to see Curtis talk to Thea about her choice not to suit up anymore.  He's made a BIG choice to go out in the field; she obviously knows the bad that it can lead to, meanwhile Curtis is sympathetic enough to try to understand Thea's point of view.  Oliver has had some one on one time with pretty much all the newbs (because he's the LEAD), but I'd love more scenes with him and Rory, because there was some real magic for me in their rooftop scene talking about honoring their fathers and with Rory growing closer to Felicity but still probably having some qualms about her, it would give us a new slant PoV on Oliver's feelings for Felicity.  I'm really shocked that we haven't had a scene between Mayo and Lance.  Lance has pretty much spent ALL his time with only Oliver or Thea.  I'd call it mayoral island, but it doesn't feel as isolating for Thea and Oliver because they do still interact with others.

Flash had less characters to juggle at most times, so I think it suffers less from its "lead driven" narrative than Arrow.  It's obvious that LoT has made a decided effort to mix team members even in season one, but I think they are doing an especially nice job this season because the storylines aren't totally separate most of the time.  Even though you have groups of two or three spending the majority of an episode together, they do cross paths with each other, or sometimes jumble again in mid-episode, and it feels organic and allows several facets of each character to shine during every episode.

[Morrigan2575]

Can't wait!

[Chaser]

I am Groooooot!

[catrox14]

YASSS!!! That looks like SO MUCH FUN!! Guardians 1 is my favorite Marvel movie.

[tv echo]

Spoiler Room: Scoop on Once Upon a Time, Chicago Fire, Supergirl and more
BY NATALIE ABRAMS • December 2, 2016
http://www.ew.com/article/2016/12/02/spoiler-room-once-upon-time-chicago-fire-supergirl?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter

Quote

Where is the Alex/Maggie Supergirl scoop you promised? — Brenda
Right here. Though Alex and Maggie smooched in the winter finale, their blossoming relationship has a long way to go. “There’s definitely some bumps,” executive producer Andrew Kreisberg tells me. “Just because they are together now doesn’t mean it’s going to go smoothly. Alex has never been in this kind of relationship before and she’s going to make some rookie mistakes that they’ll have to get past. Maggie has been presented as being the perfect guide for Alex’s journey this season, but Alex is going to learn that Maggie isn’t perfect, which is going to lead to some difficult situations coming down the road.”
*  *  *
How will the Invasion crossover affect Team Arrow moving forward? — James
For Oliver in particular, going through the Dominators’ Matrix-like construct — or his version of For the Man Who Has Everything — has certainly made him stronger. “It forced Oliver to double down on his mission and commit to this life with all of its loses and failures and challenges,” executive producer Andrew Kreisberg says of Ollie leaving that seemingly perfect life behind. He’ll need to be stronger because there are some big twists coming in the winter finale.
*  *  *
So how is H.R.’s Wally-training going to go on The Flash? — Pang
As you can probably guess, it won’t go very well. But H.R. will certainly give it the good old college try. “What I love about this version of Wells, and he’s said it himself before, but we actually show it rather than just tell it, he is a genius in his own way,” EP Andrew Kreisberg says. “He has the capacity to see other people’s talent and how to mine it and how to grow it. He sees that in Wally. Like he says in an upcoming episode, there’s nothing in it for him to help Wally, but he sees that Wally is special and that’s where he can shine, in helping other people discover their own value and helping other people develop their own gifts.”
*  *  *
Will Stein and Jax be able to keep up the secret about Stein’s daughter on Legends of Tomorrow? — Georgie
When has anyone been able to keep a secret in the Arrowverse? “Obviously Legends works differently than Arrow, where Arrow is all about people keeping secrets and secrets coming out and causing strife,” EP Marc Guggenheim says. “We’re setting up Legends’ midseason finale, where the ramifications of that secret come into play — they’ll come into play in a way that’s a little different than your question presumes.” Either way, we have not seen the last of Stein’s daughter, who will appear again in a few episodes.

[tv echo]

The DC/CW Crossover Was Fun as Hell, and It Redeemed the Flash, Too
Rob Bricken   Dec. 2, 2016
http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-dc-cw-crossover-was-fun-as-hell-and-it-redeemed-th-1789609355

The CW Superhero Crossover Was a Huge Success, So Brace Yourself for More
Abraham Riesman  Dec. 2, 2016
http://www.vulture.com/2016/12/cw-superhero-crossover-was-a-huge-success.html

Quote

In a bit of a surprising move, Arrow used the alien invaders as a story prompt: Ollie is hooked up to a machine that makes him dream of a life where he never got on the Queen’s Gambit, thus allowing a cavalcade of guest stars from the show’s past to appear for the 100th-episode extravaganza. However, that dalliance from the core plot can be forgiven, given that we got to see Ollie fire a giant laser gun at a bunch of xenomorphs at the end, which is not a sentence I ever thought I’d write. The climactic CGI battle royale at the end of Legends was a bit chintzy, but hey, it’s the CW.

[EmilyBettFan]

Freaking Ollie again. Can they stop with that? He's not a child.

[tv echo]

DC TV Watch: What's Next After That Mega 4-Show Crossover
DECEMBER 02, 2016 8:00am PT by Sydney Bucksbaum
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/dc-tv-watch-whats-next-crossover-951937?utm_source=twitter&utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral

[SmallScreenDiva]

On 12/3/2016 at 10:25 AM, Chaser said:

With how active twitter was, I was expecting it too. What's the Facebook contribution to the ratings?

When it was first announced that Nielsen will be looking at Facebook as well, I thought it was only engagement with TV shows' official accounts. But it looks like it's measuring more than that based on this Variety article.

[statsgirl]

On 2016-12-02 at 1:04 PM, quarks said:

But to the second point, in terms of mixing up their cast interactions - Arrow has done that or tried to do that on numerous occasions, including this season, where Arrow has developed a new to this season interaction between Quentin/Thea, new to this season interactions between Diggle/Wild Dog, new to this season interactions between Felicity and Ragman, and, er, not to bring up what seems to be a sore point for many posters here, Oliver finally starting to open up with someone new, Susan, along with several other new group interactions.  (Also apparently there's been some interactions between Felicity and a guy I can never remember, but I can't count those since I keep forgetting them.) In just this past episode, Arrow put Oliver, Diggle, Thea, Sara and Ray together as a fighting group - the first time the show has ever put that particular group together as a fighting team, although the show has tried various combinations of the five of them before this.  And Arrow also shook things up and moved pieces around the board this season by flipping the Team Arrow of season four (Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, Thea, Laurel) into a new Team Arrow for season five (Oliver, Felicity, Curtis, Wild Dog, Evelyn, Ragman, with Diggle not returning to the team until episode 5.) And, this season, Arrow's been sending out different pairs/groups - sometimes sending Evelyn out with Wild Dog, sometimes with Ragman, for instance.

To go back a few days to this:

I think the reason LoT does it so much better is because they are more fluid in their team-ups.  It seems like every outing, it's a different combination of characters interacting which not only makes them more interesting but gives far more scope for insights on the characters and change-ups in their interactions.

It's true that Arrow has done some mixing up this season but now Thea is stuck on Mayor Island, interacting only with Oliver and Quentin in the mayor's office.  Not only should Evelyn be talking to Felicity about dating while working on Team Arrow, Thea should be talking to her about what it's like to be young and out risking your life every day behind a mask.   They did flip the team around from season 4 but it's still the same people going out each time.   Rory hasn't talked to Felicity since his Havenrock stuff was taken care of.  The only interaction Felicity has with the n00bs is Rene disrespecting her and Curtis mansplain' her and telling her "it's exactly what we can do" which is disrespecting the character in terms of the writing.  Diggle has had zero non-fighting contact with anyone except Wild Dong.

I don't count the crossover episode because the change-ups were do the constraints of using characters from all four shows, not inherent to Arrow.

[legaleagle53]

7 hours ago, EmilyBettFan said:

Freaking Ollie again. Can they stop with that? He's not a child.

And while we're at it, let's not use "murder" to describe the effect of resetting the timeline resulting in erasing someone from existence who never existed before and isn't supposed to exist now.  These people don't die when the timeline is reset.  They simply go back to never having existed in the first place. So "murder" is the wrong word to use regarding them.

[Wishing Well]

So this has been bothering me since the SuperFlash crossover last year but doesn't it seem like Earth-Supergirl moves faster than Earth-1?  Last time Barry was there for a couple of days, but in the Flash episode we saw that he just zapped in and out again in seconds.  Definitely not long enough for anyone else to really notice on his Earth.  This time, Cisco and Barry open up the portal and it takes a few times, which again takes place over the course of days in SupergirlLand...enough time for the entire Medusa/Henshaw fiasco to settle down and for Maggie to be up again from that gunshot.  But in the Flash episode, it was no more than the time it took for the Legends to leave the jump ship and head inside.  Maybe 15 minutes?  Then when Kara leaves, after spending at LEAST a couple of days there, can it be deduced that she's back to where she left?  Last time she didn't check in for the day she was caught by Cadmus and people were commenting on it.

[bettername2come]

I would say it's working like Narnia time where it doesn't always equal the same amount, although earth 2 matched, so I don't know.

[Mellowyellow]

Does anyone know if Shield will be getting renewed? I can't find much on their forum.

S4 has been my favourite so far but I recall reading somewhere that their ratings are really bad. 

[insomniadreams88]

Just now, Mellowyellow said:

Does anyone know if Shield will be getting renewed? I can't find much on their forum.

S4 has been my favourite so far but I recall reading somewhere that their ratings are really bad. 

There's a new Marvel series coming out next year - already has a premiere date I think? - so there has been spec that this could be SHIELD's final season. Personally, I think it's possible because it's such an inconsistent (in terms of quality) show.