S35.E12: Not Going to Roll Over and Die

[Nashville]

On 12/6/2017 at 8:03 PM, Straycat80 said:

At the loved ones challenge, I thought Ashley’s dad looked like the old Bruce Jenner when he ran out. 

When Ashley’s father came running out:

• Me: He looks just like pre-surgery Bruce Jenner.
• Wife: Get out of my head.

 

21 hours ago, NutMeg said:

The thing that puzzles me is that I thought it was cannon that contestants were not allowed to destroy other contestants' immunity idols. So what makes it ok to destroy half an idol? I thought it was forbidden. (Wasn't there a case seasons ago when someone threw someone else's idol in the sea, and the owner of the idol got it back?) I thought all was fair in Survivor within a specific set of rules, but if the rules have become flexible that's a major change.

But - as the sheet accompanying the first half clearly stated - neither piece constituted an immunity idol until assembled.  

 

16 hours ago, iMonrey said:

His plan for his fake idol seemed really personal. The whole point of it seemed to be to embarrass Chrissy at tribal. That doesn't help his game or give him any kind of advantage, he just wanted to make Chrissy look stupid for playing a fake idol. That's just personal, nothing else.

Er - that wasn’t the point.  As was (*I* thought) clearly stated, the purpose of the fake idol was to trick the 3strong Chrissy/Ryan/Mike junta into believing they had found the new idol in play, so they wouldn’t keep searching for it.  

And the (supposedly) 4strong Ashley/Ben/Devon/Lauren could search with impunity, and without interference.  

In fact, the 3strong - thinking “Silly fools - they’re searching for the idol we’ve already found!  Tee hee!” - would probably encourage the 4strong to keep looking, in the (mistaken) belief the 4strong were wasting their time.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Nashville
Typo

[KimberStormer]

I must say I still find it bizarre that Cirie wasn't able to do what she wanted with Sarah's advantage, since the idol rules have always been (we infer) that when you give someone your idol, instead of them just taking it, it's now theirs to do with as they please.  I guess Lauren couldn't give away her extra vote, since it too is an "advantage".  But why?  I imagine someone giving away/using the idol on someone else was unexpected to the producers, but they just rolled with it because it's awesome.  Yet suddenly they're rules lawyering an unprecedented move in Game Changers.  If anything I would think they'd tip the scales in Cirie's favor -- I like Sarah and she played very well but she doesn't seem like riveting TV to me.  Anyway, all this to say, I understood why Mike could do what he did, as much as it sucked for us Lauren fans.

What was Dr. Mike's post-tribal plan, do you suppose?  He voted for Ben -- from how it looked on TV, he was leading the charge to vote Ben, out of the Ryan/Chrissy/Mike group -- but burned Lauren.  If Ben doesn't pull the idol, what does Mike do when they get back to the beach?  He's screwed her over, fulfilling his lifelong dream of throwing a seashell in a campfire, so she'll be mad at him, and she has an extra vote to use.  Did he want to get an idol rehidden and try to find it so he'd have one outright?  Did he plan to win immunity?  What?

Edited December 8, 2017 by KimberStormer

[Nashville]

18 minutes ago, KimberStormer said:

I must say I still find it bizarre that Cirie wasn't able to do what she wanted with Sarah's advantage, since the idol rules have always been (we infer) that when you give someone your idol, instead of them just taking it, it's now theirs to do with as they please.  I guess Lauren couldn't give away her extra vote, since it too is an "advantage".  But why?  I imagine someone giving away/using the idol on someone else was unexpected to the producers, but they just rolled with it because it's awesome.  Yet suddenly they're rules lawyering an unprecedented move in Game Changers.  If anything I would think they'd tip the scales in Cirie's favor -- I like Sarah and she played very well but she doesn't seem like riveting TV to me.  Anyway, all this to say, I understood why Mike could do what he did, as much as it sucked for us Lauren fans.

If I’m not mistaken, the rule sheets accompanying the idols have always read, “YOU can play this idol at Tribal Council....” - meaning putting the idol into play was solely the option, the choice, and the responsibility of the finder alone.  

None of which prevents the finder putting the idol into play at TC for someone else - but not before TC.

 

18 minutes ago, KimberStormer said:

What was Dr. Mike's post-tribal plan, do you suppose?  He voted for Ben -- from how it looked on TV, he was leading the charge to vote Ben, out of the Ryan/Chrissy/Mike group -- but burned Lauren.  If Ben doesn't pull the idol, what does Mike do when they get back to the beach?  He's screwed her over, fulfilling his lifelong dream of throwing a seashell in a campfire, so she'll be mad at him, and she has an extra vote to use.  Did he want to get an idol rehidden and try to find it so he'd have one outright?  Did he plan to win immunity?  What?

Mike wanted flash, so Mike got flash.  Useless-as-tits-on-a-bull flash, but there ya go.

[Irishsecra]

I actually really like Mike and think he is playing a good game.

i feel that he has been changing his game on the fly. He has never been in the controlling alliance since the merge when Ben and Lauren betrayed him. After it was obvious the healers were being pagonged, the only way to survive was to become less of a threat in the game than Joe. He did that by suddenly acting like he had no strategy and was a bit of a wacko game wise. By playing his idol for no apparent reason and rambling on incoherently in tribal, he accomplished that. Made himself less of a threat and more of an apparent goat than Joe. Survivor history shows the last tribe member to survive a pagong often survives quite far in the game

 

i also thought throwing half the idol into the fire was brilliant. Lauren in her exit interviews said if she and Ben had both played their idols that Mike would have been voted out on the revote. That he would have been the easiest to agree on in such a fast moment.  By throwing away half the idol, he assured that the idol could not be potentially used against him. Lauren also said she did have the extra vote and regretted not using it to put a vote on Mike if Ben played an idol.

[cooksdelight]

Love him or hate him, Ben is the only one playing a smart game thus far. If he could get over his personal feelings about others, he could win.

[ProfCrash]

Spoiler

 

Sarah's advantage said it was not transferable. She was the only person who could play it.

I am hearing discussion that Lauren could have taken the shell out of the fire and used it. The only person who can destroy an idol is Jeff so when Mike tossed it in the fire, Lauren could have taken it out. It was not destroyed, only slightly blackened.

[blackwing]

1 hour ago, Irishsecra said:

I actually really like Mike and think he is playing a good game.

i feel that he has been changing his game on the fly. He has never been in the controlling alliance since the merge when Ben and Lauren betrayed him. After it was obvious the healers were being pagonged, the only way to survive was to become less of a threat in the game than Joe. He did that by suddenly acting like he had no strategy and was a bit of a wacko game wise. By playing his idol for no apparent reason and rambling on incoherently in tribal, he accomplished that. Made himself less of a threat and more of an apparent goat than Joe. Survivor history shows the last tribe member to survive a pagong often survives quite far in the game

 

i also thought throwing half the idol into the fire was brilliant. Lauren in her exit interviews said if she and Ben had both played their idols that Mike would have been voted out on the revote. That he would have been the easiest to agree on in such a fast moment.  By throwing away half the idol, he assured that the idol could not be potentially used against him. Lauren also said she did have the extra vote and regretted not using it to put a vote on Mike if Ben played an idol.

I disagree, I think you are giving him too much credit.  He has zero game.  He's at the bottom. The only way he is surviving is because he is getting used by others who want to use him.  He's been a passive player for most of the game.   He hasn't made any decisions, someone always makes them for him.  Can't really be said to be playing a good game when he's not the active player.

As far as his wacky antics, I don't think that constitutes playing a good game.  His incoherent performance at the tribal where he told Joe to "follow my lead", rambled on in an apparent effort to draw votes to himself, uselessly played his idol and then voted for the same person the majority was trying to oust, demonstrates to me that he has no idea what he is doing.  He couldn't even explain it well to the camera the next day.

Mike clearly wants to be remembered as a beloved "character".  It's not working for me, I have nothing but contempt for him.  It started on day one when he titillatingly introduced himself to everyone as a "sex doctor", continued as he often refers to himself in the third person as "Dr Mike", reinforced when he demonstrated that he has no idea how to play.  Above all, he is seriously delusional about his game.  He seems to think he is a strategic giant ("never underestimate Dr Mike!") when he's really just an insignificant flea.

As Lauren said to his wife, "God bless you".   God bless her indeed.

[Runningwild]

18 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

And in my mind being a Marine is nothing to brag about, anyway.   

I think he should be very proud. He served in Iraq. I would love to shake his hand and thank him for his service. 

[Irishsecra]

Ironically 3 different players in their exit interviews, Cole , Joe and most importantly Lauren have said that mike has been actively playing since the game started. That he is very articulate and can convince people to do things. 

Lauren also said that he talked to everyone and she counted on him to keep her up to date on what those outside of her alliance were thinking . That he was intensely loyal to those he trusted.

for the most part, we have seen none of this on camera but both Lauren and Joe gave him a lot of credit.

hell, even Stephen Fishbach in his most recent survivor blog gave mike a fishy for this episode.

i would love it if he made it to the final 3 and revealed all this nuttiness was a strategy. I just don’t think he makes it there with all the friends he has on the jury 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Irishsecra

[amazingracefan]

The most boring by far for me is Devon.  The only time I remember him being mentioned here recently was someone saying he's cute and so he should win.  When the last vote was about to be read out there was a close up of him like he was praying.  I would have loved it if he had been blindsided.

[ByaNose]

13 minutes ago, amazingracefan said:

The most boring by far for me is Devon.  The only time I remember him being mentioned here recently was someone saying he's cute and so he should win.  When the last vote was about to be read out there was a close up of him like he was praying.  I would have loved it if he had been blindsided.

Yeah, he's getting the love because he's good looking. He certainly isn't the first person this has happend to. It wasn't until the last few episodes that he's been shown where he thinks he's been running the show. I don't think he has but I could see him making it to the Final 4. All he would have to do is win that final immunity. I think he is liked by everyone and he's in that young zone with Desi, Cold & JP where I could see them throwing a vote his way. Also, he hasn't been able to grow an amazing goatee and no beard. Now, that's a real talent. LOL!!!

Edited December 8, 2017 by ByaNose

[ByaNose]

1 hour ago, cooksdelight said:

Love him or hate him, Ben is the only one playing a smart game thus far. If he could get over his personal feelings about others, he could win.

Ben & Lauren were playing the game the hardest. He got the best of her and he's still there. Now, it gets a little tricky for him. I guess he could go with (if they want him) of Ryan, Chrissy & Dr. Mike. They could go after Devon or Ashley depending on who doesn't win HII. They also could make it easier on all of them and just vote out Ben. I like that Ben is playing hard and I wouldn't totally hate it if he won.

[llewis823]

On 12/6/2017 at 8:02 PM, LadyChatts said:

Mike’s attempt at playing Survivor reminds me of the kid who tries so desperately to fit in with the cool crowd that he does things that he thinks are cool, but in reality just make him a laughingstock.  He’s not good at this game, and I don’t even think he’s an interesting character.

This x1000! I feel that way about him too but just couldn't put it into words as well as you did!

[Special K]

14 hours ago, HurricaneVal said:

No kidding.  I'm surprised he didn't burst out crying, or at least make some sort of shocked exclamation about it.  But...Ryan did start this game skinny as a rail. 

I bet the producers coach the loved ones on how to respond/not respond.  They probably say:  "your loved one is going to look horrible:  dirty and sick and bug-bitten and very skinny -- do not tell they they look awful, or burst into tears in pity."

I mean some of them do say "You're so skinny!"  but not in a concerned or horrified way.

[ProfCrash]

Someone on Rob Has a Podcast compared Mike to Chaos Kass. As soon as he was on the bottom his game play has comprised of moves to rile things up and stir up trouble for others with the hope being that riling the others up would help him stay in longer.  As soon as it was said, I was like "yup". Mike is acting impulsively and thinks he is in control in areas that he is not. He and Joe were pretty damn smug after JP was voted out. Neither of them thought that they were anything other then full members of a five person alliance. Mike was talking like he made some sort of huge move. The throwing of the shell into the fire, the running around with his head chopped off. Mike is playing an impulsive game based on causing trouble in the main alliance. It is working in the sense that he has not been voted out but it is doing nothing to earn him votes if he makes it to final tribal council. Does he really think Lauren would vote for him after he destroyed a part of the immunity idol? Does he really think that anyone respects his game? It is not clear to me that he understands that he is being used and no one takes him seriously, just like Kass.

[Irishsecra]

Profcrash, I heard that podcast. I do think he has been in the chaos mode since he knew Cole was going. The way he got both alliances fighting at tribal by spilling the beans about Ben was classic.

the difference is no one liked kass her first season, mike has a lot of friends.

lauren says she loves him, was a blast to hang with on the island and they are still close friends and talk often.  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ProfCrash said:

Does he really think that anyone respects his game?

According to exit interviews (at least as described in the post above), the jury DOES respect his game. 

I do but then I respected Kass's, too.

[survivinmt]

Can't believe Lauren imploded like she did. AAAARGH! Really wanted to see her win. But was so glad that she went out smiling and didn't seem bitter. I always feel that people who can realize that "literally EVERYONE ELSE has to lose in order for me to win - means that most likely I won't win" are the smartest and best adjusted.

I still like Ben - he is playing hard and was able to keep a secret - although I could have sworn he unwrapped his real idol in front of Lauren and Devon to wrap up the fake idol. Was shocked that they didn't know of it.

Ashley is ok but I wouldn't want Chrissy or Mike or Ryan to win - just haven't done much to impress.

[Special K]

15 minutes ago, survivinmt said:

Can't believe Lauren imploded like she did. AAAARGH! Really wanted to see her win. But was so glad that she went out smiling and didn't seem bitter. I always feel that people who can realize that "literally EVERYONE ELSE has to lose in order for me to win - means that most likely I won't win" are the smartest and best adjusted.

I still like Ben - he is playing hard and was able to keep a secret - although I could have sworn he unwrapped his real idol in front of Lauren and Devon to wrap up the fake idol. Was shocked that they didn't know of it.

Ashley is ok but I wouldn't want Chrissy or Mike or Ryan to win - just haven't done much to impress.

I don't think she imploded at all.  She had the votes -- everyone voted for Ben except for Ben.  I think she left the "extra vote" back at camp as a gesture of confidence to her alliance (which was basically everyone but Ben for this vote), and even if she had used it, she still would have been out.* 

Of course if she had kept her idol and used it, then someone other than Ben or Lauren would have gone home on the re-vote (probably Chrissy, I'm thinking).  But I don't think that giving the idol-half to Mike as a gesture of loyalty was in itself stupid, in that he DID vote with her.   However, Mike was an idiot to throw the shell in the fire.  He was totally showboating and for no reason at all.  I mean it's an idol -- he and Lauren could have decided how to use it moving forward.  What a maroon.

I mean, maybe there's a (slim) chance that Mike is secretly working with Ben on all this in a subterranean way, but I kind of doubt it.  His "I've been wanting to do this for 15 years" speaks of someone who is so giddy to be playing he is not really paying attention to what is going on around him.

 

ETA: *unless she threw the extra vote at someone else randomly, in which case they'd have to revote between Lauren and whoever that was.  But she could have done that with her original vote anyway. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Special K

[survivinmt]

Special K, you're right of course. She didn't really implode any more than she mistakenly trusted anyone - she HAD the votes for Ben lined up. Just wished she wouldn't have given Mike her half an idol so she could have covered herself.

I was SURE that what she gave Mike was just a shell. Until he threw it in the fire and her face fell - but it was too late by then anyway to use it in any real way.

I assume production has read forums like these or heard from players or viewers that the trick is to purposefully LOSE the loved ones visit challenge. So the rock draw was used as it is every bit as hard to throw as it is to win.

[peachmangosteen]

11 hours ago, SourK said:

I can understand the POV where it's an advantage to have someone who's not part of the game who you can talk to about your stress, but I feel like they already have that when they film their interviews each day.

But the interviewers can't really talk back to help you sort out your thoughts. And they presumably ask you pointed questions to get what they want to show on TV, so you can't really trust them at all.

10 hours ago, henripootel said:

Seems to me that the best way to do this would be to make a fake and wrap it up in the cover from a legit idol (assuming you can lay hands on one), then 'hide' it badly for someone to find.  Question: has anyone done this?  If not, I wonder if they're being told not to.  Seems like it'd be legit to me.

I thought that was what Ben did, but then I was like wouldn't that have alerted Devon and Lauren that he had an idol. But Ben definitely wrapped his fake idol in some type of cloth.

6 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

What was Dr. Mike's post-tribal plan, do you suppose?  He voted for Ben -- from how it looked on TV, he was leading the charge to vote Ben, out of the Ryan/Chrissy/Mike group -- but burned Lauren.  If Ben doesn't pull the idol, what does Mike do when they get back to the beach?  He's screwed her over, fulfilling his lifelong dream of throwing a seashell in a campfire, so she'll be mad at him, and she has an extra vote to use.  Did he want to get an idol rehidden and try to find it so he'd have one outright?  Did he plan to win immunity?  What?

It's best not to think too much about why Mike does anything he does because not even he really knows. He pretends like he does, but his explanations never actually make any sense.

3 hours ago, blackwing said:

Can't really be said to be playing a good game when he's not the active player.

In general, I don't agree with this at all but I do agree with you on Mike.

I was just thinking it's interesting that everyone left has at some point believed they were running the game. I guess Ben and Chrissy maybe never outright said it like the others did, but they obviously have believed it and alluded to it. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[Special K]

5 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I was just thinking it's interesting that everyone left has at some point believed they were running the game. I guess Ben and Chrissy maybe never outright said it like the others did, but they obviously have believed it and alluded to it. 

 

These people have watched this show, no?  You would think they'd know that whenever they say "I'm running this game" in a talking head, it's going to be used to make a fool out of them. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

So it seemed that originally Chrissy, Ryan and Mike agreed that Lauren was the biggest threat due to her advantage since they had no idea that Ben had an idol.  What Devin threw into the mix I don't know but the opinion on who to vote for seemed to switch after he talked to Ryan.

Yeah - I don't think Lauren's extra vote could have saved her. If she'd thrown it at Chrissy, for example, it would have been a tie between her and Chrissy, and on re-vote, they would have all voted out Lauren, because clearly she was second choice at that point. Four of them came in intending to vote her out anyway. Once Ben was no longer an option their attention would have turned back to her.

Quote

I'm definitely on the side of saying "This is a game and you can't be mad at people for playing it" but I also think sportsmanship matters -- to me, that includes understanding that a win for you is a loss for your opponent, and not rubbing it in their face or being insensitive about that. Neither Chrissy or Ben are covering themselves in glory when it comes to sportsmanship, but I also understand that, when you play a game where people win by ganging up on each other, it can feel a lot more personal.

That's a good way of putting it. If Chrissy goes to jury, she's a vote for a million dollars. It's not the smartest move to piss off the jurors. 

[peachmangosteen]

I really wish we knew what exactly got Chrissy and Ryan, who both seemed adamant about voting for Lauren, to change their mind. I hope we find out in the next ep, but I doubt we will, so I hope someone asks them in their exit interview.

[Special K]

1 minute ago, peachmangosteen said:

I really wish we knew what exactly got Chrissy and Ryan, who both seemed adamant about voting for Lauren, to change their mind. I hope we find out in the next ep, but I doubt we will, so I hope someone asks them in their exit interview.

Yes, this.  Something got all of them together on the Ben vote.  I'm assuming now that most of them will be pissed/gunning for Ben?  And, as someone else suggested on these boards, maybe he'll become a Mike Holloway-type underdog?

[peachmangosteen]

5 minutes ago, Special K said:

And, as someone else suggested on these boards, maybe he'll become a Mike Holloway-type underdog?

Ew, but yea I could see that.

[Special K]

4 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Ew, but yea I could see that.

Probst did say he loves this season.  Just sayin...

[Irishsecra]

Lauren said in her exit interview that she had the extra vote in her pocket.

she said she wishes she would have put it on Mike and maybe could have convinced them to vote him out.

i get the impression reading a lot of interviews that there is a lot we are missing with Mike. That he is playing a much better game than we are seeing.  He supposedly is friends with everyone.

I honestly think if he makes it to the end he wins unless he is sitting next to Ben. He hasn’t betrayed anyone on the jury. Even with Lauren, they weren’t in any kind of alliance for weeks. All the healers will vote for him. Unlike Crissy, he is genuinely liked.

and if he makes it to the end, he will have literally done it alone. No real allies at all.

however like my favorite Keith, they will take him out at 4 or 5.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Irishsecra

[Rachel RSL]

9 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

I think they have, but of course I can't remember any examples now.  But I feel like someone did this in a relatively recent season.

I think the most recent was when David did it to Jay in MvsGX. Jay had no clue it was a fake idol until Probst tossed it into the fire. 

[ByaNose]

I'm curious whatever became of Ryan & Chrissy's "fake idol"?! I thought it was going to be apart of the story all the way through. Maybe, Ryan, Chrissy or Devon told everyone and the editors just left it out since it didn't affect the story. The "fake idol" had some potential for storylines. IMO!

[blackwing]

I would find it hard to believe that Mike is the winner.  If Mike has supposedly been doing all these masterful things as reported by other evictees, wouldn't the show want to demonstrate some of that to the viewers at home?  Instead, the show has portrayed him as an idiotic man-child who doesn't even know himself what he is doing.  Would they really give him that kind of edit if he were the winner?  If he is the winner, then the show will have done its viewers a great disservice because there would be more than a few saying he's the worst winner ever.

[ByaNose]

Just now, blackwing said:

I would find it hard to believe that Mike is the winner.  If Mike has supposedly been doing all these masterful things as reported by other evictees, wouldn't the show want to demonstrate some of that to the viewers at home?  Instead, the show has portrayed him as an idiotic man-child who doesn't even know himself what he is doing.  Would they really give him that kind of edit if he were the winner?  If he is the winner, then the show will have done its viewers a great disservice because there would be more than a few saying he's the worst winner ever.

Yeah, he isn't being shown in the brightest light for a winner. Usually, this type of character gets the dodo edit music. Maybe, Final 3?!?!??!

[ljenkins782]

6 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I would find it hard to believe that Mike is the winner.  If Mike has supposedly been doing all these masterful things as reported by other evictees, wouldn't the show want to demonstrate some of that to the viewers at home?  Instead, the show has portrayed him as an idiotic man-child who doesn't even know himself what he is doing.  Would they really give him that kind of edit if he were the winner?  If he is the winner, then the show will have done its viewers a great disservice because there would be more than a few saying he's the worst winner ever.

It's hard to say because the editing isn't really favoring anyone right now, there have been unflattering or petty moments from all of them, except maybe for Ashley, but her storyline is so thin that I wouldn't say she's getting a particularly positive edit either. 

Ben has had the most quotes that could point to a winner's edit, but he's not coming across all that positively. Could be another case of the producers/editors thinking someone was going to be very well received by the audience and it doesn't turn out that way.

Lauren's edit had been building to a point where I thought she'd take it, but we see how that turned out. 

I also think back to Probst specifically name checking Dr Mike as a reason to watch this season and I just don't think he would risk calling out the eventual winner like that.

Quote

And, as someone else suggested on these boards, maybe he'll become a Mike Holloway-type underdog?

That was me, I see so many similarities in their games. The only difference (and it's a big one) is that Ben is nowhere near as good at challenges as Mike was. He has yet to win an II and at this point, with his idol gone, he's going to need it badly. But then again, they're down to so few people at this point that he's only going to have to survive one or two votes to sneak into FTC. Whether or not the implosion of his relationships will leave him with many friends on the jury remains to be seen. Mike had a disastrous split with his alliance and still managed to pull out the win, so it can happen.

Quote

I don't think she imploded at all.  She had the votes -- everyone voted for Ben except for Ben.  I think she left the "extra vote" back at camp as a gesture of confidence to her alliance (which was basically everyone but Ben for this vote), and even if she had used it, she still would have been out.* 

The single biggest mistake was not considering the possibility that Ben had an idol. Her vote plus the extra vote could have sent a person of her choice (well, her second choice after Ben) home. But I guess with so many idols and advantages floating around, it's harder for players to track where idols might be. Back when it used to be one buried at exile or one per camp, they had an easier time identifying where they were. 

[ghoulina]

18 hours ago, ByaNose said:

It’s funny how most of season was about Ryan running the game and being a potential (edit) winner. He’s been the narrator for most the season but lately he’s been on the bottom. Now, I’m trying to decide if he is able to scratch and claw his way to the Final 3 or not?! What are his odds? Do you think he makes the finals now? He was such a big part of the season even before it aired. Remember he was heavily promoted in the previews during the Game Changers Finale. Thoughts?

Just me, but I don't see him having much of a chance. Maybe if he was with Ashley and Ben and everyone hates Ben and thinks Ashley is useless. I think pairing up with Chrissy has been his downfall. Just me, but I've seen her calling most of the shots and him kind of hiding in her shadow. I think he would have done much better keeping Devon as his main alliance and making moves himself. 

[JudyObscure]

56 minutes ago, ljenkins782 said:

It's hard to say because the editing isn't really favoring anyone right now, there have been unflattering or petty moments from all of them, except maybe for Ashley, but her storyline is so thin that I wouldn't say she's getting a particularly positive edit either. 

This.  Ben has been smart, but also downright hateful at times.  Same with Chrissy. Devon is a sweet soul who reminds me of Tai, and he has had some strategic moments, but he doesn't seem to be playing large enough to be the winner. Ryan's early promise has fizzled, his body is probably eating his brain. 

   I've wanted Mike to win for most of the game and that's even while knowing that his gameplay is mainly a lot of desperate flailing.  But, I haven't seen great game play from anyone else and Mike, to me, is at least trying hard and not making me hate him.

[amazingracefan]

8 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Sarah's advantage said it was not transferable. She was the only person who could play it.

I am hearing discussion that Lauren could have taken the shell out of the fire and used it. The only person who can destroy an idol is Jeff so when Mike tossed it in the fire, Lauren could have taken it out. It was not destroyed, only slightly blackened.

I thought about the fire and at the time it made me think of Russell at that reunion where JT put the note that deceived him into the fire and Russell put his hand in to get it out.

When you look at the actual fire at tribal it's actually a lot of separated flames, there seems space between them, so conceivably the shell may not have even gone directly onto a flame.  I think Lauren was so shocked she couldn't think straight, probably felt stupid as well, but she could have looked to see if she could retrieve it.

[amazingracefan]

35 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

 Devon is a sweet soul who reminds me of Tai, and he has had some strategic moments, but he doesn't seem to be playing large enough to be the winner.

I don't really see that comparison, actually we hardly see any insight into him at all, so I wouldn't say I even know his character.  All I know is he ran scared of Ryan, and he has an alliance with Ashley and that's it.  Today I even struggled to remember both their names, no problem with the others.

[OldWiseOne]

7 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I really wish we knew what exactly got Chrissy and Ryan, who both seemed adamant about voting for Lauren, to change their mind. I hope we find out in the next ep, but I doubt we will, so I hope someone asks them in their exit interview.

I was wondering about this too. I think when everyone got up and started talking at Tribal, the conversation between Chrissy and Ryan that was shown went "we have to stick with Lauren" or something to that effect. At original viewing, I thought it meant they were sticking with voting FOR Lauren, but maybe they meant voting WITH Lauren.

[LanceM]

5 hours ago, blackwing said:

I would find it hard to believe that Mike is the winner.  If Mike has supposedly been doing all these masterful things as reported by other evictees, wouldn't the show want to demonstrate some of that to the viewers at home?  Instead, the show has portrayed him as an idiotic man-child who doesn't even know himself what he is doing.  Would they really give him that kind of edit if he were the winner?  If he is the winner, then the show will have done its viewers a great disservice because there would be more than a few saying he's the worst winner ever.

Yes.  Which since they aren't showing these things it most likely he means he doesn't win.

[green]

3 hours ago, OldWiseOne said:

I was wondering about this too. I think when everyone got up and started talking at Tribal, the conversation between Chrissy and Ryan that was shown went "we have to stick with Lauren" or something to that effect. At original viewing, I thought it meant they were sticking with voting FOR Lauren, but maybe they meant voting WITH Lauren.

No you had it right.  Ryan told Mike to remain strong and keep the vote on Lauren early at tribal council.  Then Devin came over and things went really weird and it all changed.  But originally Ryan, Mike and Chrissy were going after Lauren probably because of her advantage.

[SVNBob]

3 hours ago, green said:

Ryan told Mike to remain strong and keep the vote on Lauren early at tribal council.

Technically, he said to keep the "target" on Lauren, not the vote.  That could mean that the plan was to give lip service to voting out Lauren, but voting for someone else entirely.  With Ben announcing he was voting Lauren, the vote could have gone 3-3-1.  But I think Devon's move was to say that their 3 were voting Ben, so that's why they potentially flipped to Ben.

[cooksdelight]

Rewatching, not sure if anyone’s mentioned it yet, the sea shell was in front of Lauren’s podium because SHE found the clue and it said “the shell will be in front of your podium at the next immunity challenge.”

[Nashville]

23 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I really wish we knew what exactly got Chrissy and Ryan, who both seemed adamant about voting for Lauren, to change their mind. I hope we find out in the next ep, but I doubt we will, so I hope someone asks them in their exit interview.

Not what, but who - and the answer appeared to be Devon.  

Now, Chrissy/Ryan/Mike may have been undertaking an elaborate ruse to set up (in their minds, anyway) an epic Ben blindside; Chrissy’s staunch refusal to even entertain the notion of voting against Ben seemed surprisingly out of character, considering she hated his ass.  On the surface, though, their intended vote target was Lauren.  Mike was wavering, but Chrissy and Ryan kept steering Mike back; they had Lauren in their sights and missile lock was engaged.  But then Devon engages in a quick whisper fest with the three immediately before the vote, and all votes flip to Ben.

So - what did Devon say?  

I half-suspect Devon laid an ultimatum before Chrissy/Ryan/Mike; vote with us against Ben, or one of you will be next.

[Nashville]

In any event, I think Ben’s days are numbered unless he can go on an unprecedented (for him) tear of IC wins and/or II finds - which reintroduces Devon as a significant dark horse candidate for the win.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Nashville
Expansion

[peachmangosteen]

17 hours ago, OldWiseOne said:

I was wondering about this too. I think when everyone got up and started talking at Tribal, the conversation between Chrissy and Ryan that was shown went "we have to stick with Lauren" or something to that effect. At original viewing, I thought it meant they were sticking with voting FOR Lauren, but maybe they meant voting WITH Lauren.

Yea, I thought about this, too. My sister actually thought this is exactly what they meant and that they always intended to vote with Lauren to boot Ben. 

It's really impossible to tell what exactly happened based on the footage we were shown from TC. It was all over that place. And we weren't shown the subtitles of what Devon said to Chrissy/Ryan/Mike for some reason. Hopefully in the next episode we'll get some more insight into it, but I don't think we will. Unless it was something Devon said and Devon is the winner, otherwise I think they'll probably just gloss over it.

[amazingracefan]

7 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

Rewatching, not sure if anyone’s mentioned it yet, the sea shell was in front of Lauren’s podium because SHE found the clue and it said “the shell will be in front of your podium at the next immunity challenge.”

I just assumed people realised that.  That's why I said the shell idol was way too easy to get.

3 hours ago, Nashville said:

I half-suspect Devon laid an ultimatum before Chrissy/Ryan/Mike; vote with us against Ben, or one of you will be next.

I'm not sure he's in a position to issue ultimatums.

20 hours ago, OldWiseOne said:

I was wondering about this too. I think when everyone got up and started talking at Tribal, the conversation between Chrissy and Ryan that was shown went "we have to stick with Lauren" or something to that effect. At original viewing, I thought it meant they were sticking with voting FOR Lauren, but maybe they meant voting WITH Lauren.

That's possible.  Though how much can you always trust the subtitles anyway?  I think the point of it in the edit was probably to make us think Lauren was still the target.

[peachmangosteen]

3 hours ago, amazingracefan said:

I'm not sure [Devin]'s in a position to issue ultimatums.

Before this last vote he was. 

[Nashville]

49 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Before this last vote he was. 

THIS was my problem with this episode's entire setup.  In recent seasons, it's like the competitors think they get bonus points for being the first to jump the gun on alliance implosion; the concept of "too soon" appears to have never penetrated their thick little noggins.  

This vote was a perfect example: a 4strong vs. a 3strong, with nascent dissension in the 4strong.  In this scenario, all members of the 4strong are best served strategically by postponing the immediate gratification of feeding on their own for just one more freakin' vote:

• The 4strong currently has a one-vote advantage over the 3strong - the absolute minimum criteria which could be considered any degree of advantage, and one which is susceptible to upset by the defection of a single member.  By continuing to stand 4strong for one more vote, they reduce the 3strong opposition to a single pair.  This gives them a 2-vote margin of strategic breathing room which cannot be upset by a single player's defection - and if the dissension within their ranks grows to a point which cannot be tolerated, the prime instigator may be eliminated while still maintaining a degree of numeric superiority.
• Sacrificing one of their own at this point, however, means the formerly-4strong have voluntarily sacrificed their numeric and strategic superiority.  The game is now a 3/3 dead heat - and should one of the former 4 feel threatened by their own alliance, all it takes is a single TC vote flip to put the former powerhouse alliance in the same toilet to which their opposition could have consigned last week.

Yeah, yeah, I know - solid strategy makes for boring TV, and I'm certain a lot of these boneheaded "strategy" blunders are fed to players by Production looking to spice things up for the show.  Doesn't make them any less boneheaded, though - and if *I* were a player competing for a million dollars, I'd tell Production to take any suggestions jeopardizing my chances and stick them where the sun don't shine.

[violet and green]

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

This vote was a perfect example: a 4strong vs. a 3strong, with nascent dissension in the 4strong.  In this scenario, all members of the 4strong are best served strategically by postponing the immediate gratification of feeding on their own for just one more freakin' vote:

Exactly! And as well as ruining their own future chances of winning (well, really ruining it in Lauren's case!) they ruined the perfect moment for getting one of the people I have been trying to get voted out of this game with the power of my mind for this entire season!

[green]

2 hours ago, Nashville said:

THIS was my problem with this episode's entire setup.  In recent seasons, it's like the competitors think they get bonus points for being the first to jump the gun on alliance implosion; the concept of "too soon" appears to have never penetrated their thick little noggins.  

This vote was a perfect example: a 4strong vs. a 3strong, with nascent dissension in the 4strong.  In this scenario, all members of the 4strong are best served strategically by postponing the immediate gratification of feeding on their own for just one more freakin' vote:

• The 4strong currently has a one-vote advantage over the 3strong - the absolute minimum criteria which could be considered any degree of advantage, and one which is susceptible to upset by the defection of a single member.  By continuing to stand 4strong for one more vote, they reduce the 3strong opposition to a single pair.  This gives them a 2-vote margin of strategic breathing room which cannot be upset by a single player's defection - and if the dissension within their ranks grows to a point which cannot be tolerated, the prime instigator may be eliminated while still maintaining a degree of numeric superiority.
• Sacrificing one of their own at this point, however, means the formerly-4strong have voluntarily sacrificed their numeric and strategic superiority.  The game is now a 3/3 dead heat - and should one of the former 4 feel threatened by their own alliance, all it takes is a single TC vote flip to put the former powerhouse alliance in the same toilet to which their opposition could have consigned last week.

Yeah, yeah, I know - solid strategy makes for boring TV, and I'm certain a lot of these boneheaded "strategy" blunders are fed to players by Production looking to spice things up for the show.  Doesn't make them any less boneheaded, though - and if *I* were a player competing for a million dollars, I'd tell Production to take any suggestions jeopardizing my chances and stick them where the sun don't shine.

Yet another excellent post from you.

And now it isn't even 3 to 3.  They turned on Ben.  With Lauren gone Devin and Ashley are now just an alliance of two.  If Chrissy, Ryan and Mike stay allied they are now in control getting to choose to either accept this pair into their alliance to oust Ben next time for to take Ben in to wreck his revenge on Devin and Ashley.  If Mike doesn't do his usual stupid what-the-hell stuff this group of three can now run the game for the next couple of votes because the remaining three are divided now and Ben won't trust Devin and Ashley again.

Of course that is in a pure game of strategy where advantages and idols aren't doled out like special interest bribes in Washington.