S02.E07: Matrimonium

[biakbiak]

23 minutes ago, CousinAmy said:

Don't forget Elizabeth and Philip also had an age gap - they met when she was a young teenager and he was already an adult. There is film of them from that time. (Although I don't think he was sexually attracted to her, but he knew she would be the Queen of England someday...) 

They are only 5 years apart and started exchanging letters when she was 13 and he was 18.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 12/18/2017 at 1:12 PM, dustoffmom said:

Passions!  I relished it!  So full of itself, so ridiculous, so utterly campy!  Every plot twist ever imagined crammed into 30 minutes.  I wonder, are any of them still working these days?

Aside from Justin Hartley who was mentioned above, Jesse Metcalfe (Miguel #1) went on to become pretty famous on Desperate Housewives, Blair Redford (Miguel #3) was a regular on The Lying Game and Switched at Birth (which probably isn't as impressive to adults but he was famous to teenagers), McKenzie Westmore (Sheridan) has been hosting Face Off for years, Natalie Zea (Gwen #2) starred on Dirty Sexy Money and Justified (fun fact: she married Travis Schuldt aka Ethan #1 a few years ago!), Mary Elizabeth Winstead has done a bunch of horror movies (Final Destination 3, Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter, 10 Cloverfield Lane).

On 12/19/2017 at 8:38 AM, dubbel zout said:

I don't know why they showed him hiding the cane—Margaret knew he'd had polio, and it wouldn't have been surprising to see him use a cane now and again. It's not as if they were in public, where he might be less likely to want to use it.

I think it was more about his pride and not wanting to appear weak. Even though he knows that she knows, he just didn't want her to see his cane. It may not be totally rational, but I saw it as similar to when you're sick in bed with a red nose and puffy eyes and your significant other walks in to see if you're okay and you hide your face. You know that the other person already knows that you are sick and they don't care because they love you, but you just feel self conscious.

[Yokosmom]

4 hours ago, biakbiak said:

They are only 5 years apart and started exchanging letters when she was 13 and he was 18.

Yeah, and I always thought it was bizarre of her parents to allow that. I know that she was fixated on him, but they were the adults in the room.

[Bec]

Yeah, I know people got married earlier back in the day, but there isn't the same big imbalance in life experience between two young people around the same age, both just starting out in adulthood. Or two people both well-settled into adulthood who happens to have an age-gap.

It's when one person has been an adult for a good long while and the other is just beginning to navigate adulthood, that makes the power dynamic kind of screwed up.

People can argue you can't help who you fall in love with, and different people mature differently, and so on. If Townsend had only ever been with one teenager, I could maybe chalk it up to that. But two teenage girls is a pattern of behaviour.

Even as of this episode, Princess Margaret still hadn't really grown up, so it might be safe to say mental maturity is not the thing that Townsend is attracted to.

Of course this kind of thing happens all the time, just about everyone who's been a teenage girl has had the experience of being hit on by considerably older men. Some things haven't changed that much in the last 50+ years. But does that make it a state of things we should simply accept as the "natural order" and never question?

As this show keeps reminding us, it used to be the "natural order" for monarchs to have absolute power. It used to be the "natural order" for there to be a strict hierarchy in society according to how highborn someone was. All sorts of messed up things used to be considered the natural order.

[Minivanessa]

On 12/16/2017 at 7:04 PM, Dejana said:

And there was a bit of a resemblance with Margaret and the fiancée, though she was younger, I can imagine it rankled:

 

6 hours ago, CousinAmy said:

But the fiancee seemed like a mature person, not like a high school girl. And for her it seemed like a good match. I don't know where the concept came from that a mature man can't be attracted to a young woman - it happened, and happens all the time.

I agree with @CousinAmy. According to that newsreel, Marie-Luce Jamagne, Townsend's fiance, was 20 years old, the daughter of a millionaire (that couldn't hurt), and had accompanied Townsend on a two year trip around the world as a photographer. There was a 24 year age difference, but It's not like Townsend had hung out at the mall and found a nubile cheerleader to hit on.

Spoiler

According to Wikipedia, Townsend's marriage to Marie-Luce lasted until his death in 1995. Also, "their daughter, Isabelle Townsend, became a Ralph Lauren advertising model in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Isabelle and her family live in a house in France named "The Mill", where the Duke and Duchess of Windsor once resided."

[Clanstarling]

48 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

I agree with @CousinAmy. According to that newsreel, Marie-Luce Jamagne, Townsend's fiance, was 20 years old, the daughter of a millionaire (that couldn't hurt), and had accompanied Townsend on a two year trip around the world as a photographer. There was a 24 year age difference, but It's not like Townsend had hung out at the mall and found a nubile cheerleader to hit on.

  Reveal hidden contents

According to Wikipedia, Townsend's marriage to Marie-Luce lasted until his death in 1995. Also, "their daughter, Isabelle Townsend, became a Ralph Lauren advertising model in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Isabelle and her family live in a house in France named "The Mill", where the Duke and Duchess of Windsor once resided."

She was 20 when they married. According to the episode, she was 19 when he wrote to Margaret, which tracks, given that it takes time to plan for a marriage.  In the episode he said he'd known her for a few years, which put her at around 16 (nubile cheerleader territory?).  Margaret was younger when they first met, and though the "romance" didn't occur until she was of age, it seems a very similar scenario. So debutante balls, not malls.

2 hours ago, Bec said:

People can argue you can't help who you fall in love with, and different people mature differently, and so on. If Townsend had only ever been with one teenager, I could maybe chalk it up to that. But two teenage girls is a pattern of behaviour.

Even as of this episode, Princess Margaret still hadn't really grown up, so it might be safe to say mental maturity is not the thing that Townsend is attracted to.

Yes, it's more the pattern of behavior than the fact of the marriage.

I've no doubt there are fine examples of marriages of similar age differences, but Townsend has always seemed just a bit skeevy to me, especially considering he was a married man when he was romancing the princess.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Clanstarling

[dubbel zout]

10 hours ago, Bec said:

even the old-school moustaches thought it was weird.

I think they'd have found anything Peter Townsend did weird.

[Crs97]

10 hours ago, Bec said:

 

While I think it's so childish that Margaret just wants to announce her engagement before Peter can announce his, I don't think it's too much to ask of Elizabeth to let Margaret announce the engagement before Elizabeth announces her pregnancy, instead of making Margaret wait until after the baby is born.

Just let her have this one, if for no other reason than so she can quit pouting about how you never let her have anything!

 

I actually think this would have been worse.  This was still during the time when being seen visibly pregnant wasn’t quite done.  She would have had to wait to get married until after Andrew’s birth, and she would have complained bitterly whenever a news story was about the pregnancy and not her upcoming wedding.  Face it, Margaret reveled in her victim status.  She would have figured out a way to blame Elizabeth.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Crs97

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, biakbiak said:

They are only 5 years apart and started exchanging letters when she was 13 and he was 18.

 

6 hours ago, Yokosmom said:

Yeah, and I always thought it was bizarre of her parents to allow that. I know that she was fixated on him, but they were the adults in the room.

I can't understand that kind of attitude. Has anyone proven that these letters were something else than innocent? 

In Finland it was women and girls' duty to write to soldiers and thus keep theiir spirit up. If one hadn't anyone one knew at the front, one wrote to the "unknown soldier". 

Also, girls under 18 years worked in the war hosipitals or stood air-traffic control towers. 

[CousinAmy]

Philip wasn't just any soldier. He was a Prince, and a descendant of Queen Victoria. I think both sides (of adults - the Mountbattens and the Windsor's) were looking at the possibility of a match a few years down the line. 

[PeterPirate]

I guess I'll play devil's advocate on behalf of Group Captain Townsend.  He was a favorite of King George VI.  He knew the stresses placed on the royal family and he knew how to put them at ease  He not only waited two full years for Margaret to turn 25, he did so while they were in different countries.  

That's loyalty beyond 99% of the male shlubs out there.  And he also wasn't independently wealthy, so he couldn't step out on the missus without suffering severe consequences.  

Seriously, ladies, if you were young and wealthy and you wished to get married, who would be a better choice than Peter Townsend?  

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I guess I'll play devil's advocate on behalf of Group Captain Townsend.  He was a favorite of King George VI.  He knew the stresses placed on the royal family and he knew how to put them at ease  He not only waited two full years for Margaret to turn 25, he did so while they were in different countries.  

That's loyalty beyond 99% of the male shlubs out there.  And he also wasn't independently wealthy, so he couldn't step out on the missus without suffering severe consequences.  

Seriously, ladies, if you were young and wealthy and you wished to get married, who would be a better choice than Peter Townsend?  

Are you serious? Young and wealthy women can certainly find much better, and before all single, men to marry than a divorced middle-aged man with two sons. Becoming a step-mother is never easy, but at 20 one isn't surely ripe for that role.  

Actually, we can't know why Townsend waited for Margaret. Maybe he was a social climber. Was it just for her youth and looks and not for her fortune that he married her second wife?

[PeterPirate]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Are you serious? Young and wealthy women can certainly find much better, and before all single, men to marry than a divorced middle-aged man with two sons. Becoming a step-mother is never easy, but at 20 one isn't surely ripe for that role.  

Actually, we can't know why Townsend waited for Margaret. Maybe he was a social climber. Was it just for her youth and looks and not for her fortune that he married her second wife?

Well, I did say I was playing devil's advocate.

Townsends' sons were 14 and 17 when he married Marie-Luce. They hardly needed much step-mothering, and could have easily been kicked off to boarding school if they caused any trouble.  (Although I rather think they behaved themselves.  If you are teenage boy and you suddenly have a young, rich, hot stepmother, you're gonna hope that she will introduce you to some of her friends.  And it's especially helpful if you have a dad who can give you pointers on how to behave.)  

If it is appropriate to label Townsend a social-climber, then that label is appropriate for any man of lesser wealth and stature than Marie-Luce who is courting above his station.  And within that category, Townsend had a proven track record of loyalty. 

In the end, who really knows?  The heart wants what the heart wants.  

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

Well, I did say I was playing devil's advocate.

Townsends' sons were 14 and 17 when he married Marie-Luce. They hardly needed much step-mothering, and could have easily been kicked off to boarding school if they caused any trouble.  (Although I rather think they behaved themselves.  If you are teenage boy and you suddenly have a young, rich, hot stepmother, you're gonna hope that she will introduce you to some of her friends.  And it's especially helpful if you have a dad who can give you pointers on how to behave.)  

If it is appropriate to label Townsend a social-climber, then that label is appropriate for any man of lesser wealth and stature than Marie-Luce who is courting above his station.  And within that category, Townsend had a proven track record of loyalty. 

In the end, who really knows?  The heart wants what the heart wants.  

Well, I was toying with the idea about Townsend as a social climber, because it makes as much as sense than see him to have an unnatural interest in teenage girls - that's how people tend to look relationships outside, without actually knowing anything about them.

Although Townsend had other qualities that attracted Margaret and his second wife, he wasn't by any means generally regarded as a "catch". And many teenage boys would show resentment, feeling that they would lose their father for good.

As for Townsend's "track record for loyalty" - whatever he was irl, he completely failed in that respect in the show:  Margaret persuaded her not to be at home in Christmas and he kissed her while married. That his wife after years of neglect had an affair for which she was considered a guilty party in divorce, shows how odd and out-of-date the British law was.    

[Crs97]

27 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

As for Townsend's "track record for loyalty" - whatever he was irl, he completely failed in that respect in the show:  Margaret persuaded her not to be at home in Christmas and he kissed her while married. That his wife after years of neglect had an affair for which she was considered a guilty party in divorce, shows how odd and out-of-date the British law was.    

I thought that Philip had it right when he said Peter’s marriage failed because he spent all his time serving the Royal family and sniffing around Margaret.  That is also why I liked Mike’s wife giving Elizabeth a little “what for” on the sacrifices she had to make as “favors” the RF so blithely ask for.

[Roseanna]

14 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

I thought that Philip had it right when he said Peter’s marriage failed because he spent all his time serving the Royal family and sniffing around Margaret.  That is also why I liked Mike’s wife giving Elizabeth a little “what for” on the sacrifices she had to make as “favors” the RF so blithely ask for.

Eileen Parker was both right and wrong. Elizabeth's private secretaries really had to be "on duty" 7/24. But was Mike really "only doing his duty" while having fun with Philip? No doubt somebody had constantly to be with him for security reasons but was there really nobody else? Before all, the Royal family did not cause Mike's straying and we saw that he chose not to call her daughter despite his promise. (Philip at least was sorry for that he had to leave his children for five months and send them a film.)      

[Lorna Mae]

When Margaret was told she couldn't announce her engagement until after Elizabeth's new baby was born, did anyone else hear Jan Brady? "Lilibet, Lilibet, Lilibet! I'm tired of being in Lilibet's [sob] shadow all the time!"

Also, nice touch with the lace jabot being tightened around Charles' neck and jerking his head up, like a yoke.

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, Lorna Mae said:

When Margaret was told she couldn't announce her engagement until after Elizabeth's new baby was born, did anyone else hear Jan Brady? "Lilibet, Lilibet, Lilibet! I'm tired of being in Lilibet's [sob] shadow all the time!"

That has been one of the lasting themes. When Elizabeth was wildly popular after becoming the Queen in S1. Margaret wasn't pleased.

I think George VI made irl a huge mistake. As he had been a younger brother always in the shadow of the more charming David, he tried to replace Margaret secondary status by spoiling her.  Also, Queen Elizabeth treated her daughters in the same way (they were even dressed alike) although Elizabeth was four years older than Margaret which is quite a gap during childhood. 

From the democratic perspective it isn't right that somebody has a higher status simply because he or she is born first, but if the society is based on this principle, then it's better that the younger ones are made to accept that they haven't the same privileges as the elder sibling while at the same time stressing them that they haven't his/her duties either.

Evidently it was easier to younger sons as they could serve in the army or navy. Margaret could only marry.   

[Bec]

I'm not saying Peter Townsend was the devil. Heh. But he was just questionable enough that it makes me raise my eyebrow at stories on this show and in news articles trying to depict him as such a wonderful guy and someone women ought to swoon over like a lead in a grand romantic tale. Yeah... no.

He has been romanticised far too much. Of course people at the time would feel like he deserved all the teenage girls he could get because he was a war hero. This was a time when girls were considered things for men to have, and it was just the normal thing if the power dynamic in a relationship favoured the man.

The recaps aren't wrong that this show skews too much toward telling the story from a man's perspective when so many of the major characters are women. We see that at work when it comes to how the story treats Peter Townsend.

It's setting the bar pretty low if a guy is considered super great as long as he's not as awful as the likes of Mike Parker and Tony Armstrong-Jones!

[Inquisitionist]

3 hours ago, Bec said:

He has been romanticised far too much. Of course people at the time would feel like he deserved all the teenage girls he could get because he was a war hero.

Regardless of what this series depicts, I'm not sure there is any evidence that Townsend pursued Margaret until she was in her 20s.  And Marie Luce Jamagne was 19 when they met  (and apparently working at the time) and 20 when they married.  In my mind, these were young women, not "teenagers".  I considered myself a woman at 18; I think that was even more true in the 1950s.  I don't know what people of the time thought Townsend "deserved," but he was hardly Roy Moore.  ;-)

[orza]

30 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

Regardless of what this series depicts, I'm not sure there is any evidence that Townsend pursued Margaret until she was in her 20s.  And Marie Luce Jamagne was 19 when they met  (and apparently working at the time) and 20 when they married.  In my mind, these were young women, not "teenagers".  I considered myself a woman at 18; I think that was even more true in the 1950s.  I don't know what people of the time thought Townsend "deserved," but he was hardly Roy Moore.  ;-)

Agreed. A person who has completed her education by age 15 or 16, been living an adult life for several years and holding down a job is a young woman, not a girl. I don't see anything questionable about Peter Townsend and either his relationship with Margaret or his second marriage. I find the infantalizing of young women and the presumption that they are helpless victims who don't know their own minds troubling.

[Bec]

Like I said, I'm not accusing Peter Townsend of child molestation, or sexual assault for that matter. Nor am I suggesting Princess Margaret or Marie-Luce were children.

Saying there's an imbalance isn't the same as saying one side is completely helpless.

There's just no shortage of movies and TV shows depicting relationships with older men as super romantic, often for female characters who haven't had any romantic relationships before. It all contributes to a zeitgeist that makes the Roy Moores of the world feel like they're romantic heroes, too. Makes them think that girls and young women are totally coming onto them.

It's odd that the real Tony might not even be as bad as this episode depicted (the recap mentioned something about this), but the show had no problem depicting his character as someone who doesn't care for Princess Margaret at all and is just using her. Yet the Peter character is depicted as "the good guy". It's like we're supposed to think what a shame it is she couldn't have married nice-guy Peter instead of this shitheel Tony. I expect dramatic license to be taken, but this seems to oversimplify things a bit too much.

[merylinkid]

Townsend was not a great guy for waiting until Margaret was 25.   Before 25 she needed the sovereign's permission to marry.   She was NOT going to get it.   If Townsend wanted to marry into the Royal Family (the ultimate social climb) then he had no choice but to wait.

[Roseanna]

On 12/23/2017 at 0:25 PM, Bec said:

Yet the Peter character is depicted as "the good guy". 

I think he was described rather weak. It was clearly Margaret who pursued him, already when he was married.

Also, we never saw Mrs Townsend. If she had been described as a long-suffering wife and if he had neglected also his sons, we would have loathed him. On the other hand, if Mrs Townsend had been descibed as a shrew or if she had had affairs before her husband started to neglect him, we would have loather her and given him absolution.   

On 12/23/2017 at 0:25 PM, Bec said:

It's odd that the real Tony might not even be as bad as this episode depicted (the recap mentioned something about this), but the show had no problem depicting his character as someone who doesn't care for Princess Margaret at all and is just using her. 

As far as I know Tony's had relationship with women and men, but evidently he and Margaret had strong sexual chemistry when they dated secretly and in the beginning of their marriage. It was only later that they started to torment each other and Tony did it better than Margaret.

On the other hand, Tony wasn't interested in marriage. He said later that he married Margaret because she proposed. 

Dramatically, it would be better that his behaviour would have changed. Now we know too much already which makes S3 difficult.    

On 12/23/2017 at 0:25 PM, Bec said:

It's odd that the real Tony might not even be as bad as this episode depicted (the recap mentioned something about this), but the show had no problem depicting his character as someone who doesn't care for Princess Margaret at all and is just using her. Yet the Peter character is depicted as "the good guy". It's like we're supposed to think what a shame it is she couldn't have married nice-guy Peter instead of this shitheel Tony. I expect dramatic license to be taken, but this seems to oversimplify things a bit too much.

I must admit that in the most important aspect Townsend was a better choice than Tony - after his divorce Townsend wasn't dating anybody else at the same time than Margaret like Tony was.

That really shows how odd the attitudes towards divorce were - a man could have lovers before marriage and during it (at least if the affairs didn't become public) and that didn't matter, but the divorce was a sin that couldn't be forgiven.      

[EtheltoTillie]

On 12/11/2017 at 0:28 PM, beeziebee said:

Was that Caroline Bingley?  I thought she was Anna Chancellor.

Despite seeing Pride and Prejudice a zillion times, I'd never have recognized her from that.

[dubbel zout]

On 12/23/2017 at 4:08 PM, Roseanna said:

divorce was a sin that couldn't be forgiven.      

"What God has joined together let no man put asunder."

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

"What God has joined together let no man put asunder."

Well, if one knows history, one knows that it was quite late that only a church marriage was legal. Marriage was an agreement between families f.ex. about inheritance.  

[Kellyim10]

  On 12/10/2017 at 10:41 AM, Roseanna said:

In short, pleasure vs. duty, once again.

Exactly. This show isn't subtle. I'm tired of the oh-so-convenient thunderclaps, as well. 

  On 12/11/2017 at 11:31 AM, spaceghostess said:

twilight sleep/forceps delivery

That's how it happened with a lot of women: They'd be put to sleep and wake up three days later with a baby. Yikes.

  On 12/11/2017 at 1:42 PM, humbleopinion said:

Anthony Snowden's mother

If that portrayal is even 50 percent accurate, poor Tony. Lady Rosse is a horror. (Anna Chancellor can do no wrong, however!)

"That's how it happened with a lot of women: They'd be put to sleep and wake up three days later with a baby. Yikes."

That's how my grandma tells it from when she had my mom and 2 aunts. I thought it was really creepy, but she thought it was fantastic because it was so easy. The messiness of motherhood was never really her thing anyway. :)

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 12/10/2017 at 9:10 PM, humbleopinion said:

How is my favorite Caroline Bingley  Anna Chancellor (52 yrs old) old enough to be Matthew Goode's(39 yrs old) mother...acting!

Victoria Hamilton (the Queen Mother) is 46; Claire Foy is 33. Same difference!  Makeup, and especially, dowdy clothes and hair.

On 12/18/2017 at 11:49 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I don’t know why the show had him say that his stepbrother was in second class. Tony’s mother had two sons with her second husband: Brendan (the viscount in first class) and Martin (I’m assuming this was the kid in second class). Both of them were Tony’s half brothers. His mother’s new husband had no other children so Tony did not have a stepbrother. 

It could only be for the drama, but it didn't really make sense, because a stepbrother would be his mother's 2nd husband's older son, and would therefore be the heir to the earldom and presumably ride in first class, with the half-brother Brendan, the younger son of the earl, in 2nd class.

In real life, Armstrong-Jones had a full sister, 2 half-brothers from his mother (no step-brothers), and eventually, from his father, a half-brother 30 years his junior.

On 12/19/2017 at 11:38 AM, dubbel zout said:

I don't know why they showed him hiding the cane—Margaret knew he'd had polio, and it wouldn't have been surprising to see him use a cane now and again. It's not as if they were in public, where he might be less likely to want to use it.

I assume he didn't want to show any weakness in front of her.  He was all about bravado and contempt.  He certainly wouldn't have wanted her pitying him.

On 12/21/2017 at 6:10 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I think it was more about his pride and not wanting to appear weak. Even though he knows that she knows, he just didn't want her to see his cane. It may not be totally rational, but I saw it as similar to when you're sick in bed with a red nose and puffy eyes and your significant other walks in to see if you're okay and you hide your face. You know that the other person already knows that you are sick and they don't care because they love you, but you just feel self conscious.

Yes.

Edited December 28, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[tennisgurl]

Margaret really is just terribly immature, isn't she? I do feel bad for her, as she is clearly unhappy and still heartbroken about Peter, and that leads to her making VERY poor life choices, but she is also such a pain to deal with for her staff and her sister. Poor Elizabeth is so trying to be nice to Margaret and Margaret just keeps sniping at her and complaining about everything, even right after Elizabeth pushed a baby out! She is also quite petty (I have to make sure that my announcement is out before my ex boyfriends damn it!) and seems to be getting married only because she A. just wants to marry someone, and B. because she likes the idea of being all bohemian and modern, and marrying Tony is a way to get close to that life, without having to give up any of the thing about being royal she likes. Elizabeth was totally right when she said that Margaret would never leave the family for real to go off and be "free", because she likes the perks of being royalty. She wants to flirt with the bohemian lifestyle, without actually being a for real starving artist or anything. 

I did really like the scenes where she was riding in the carriage with Philip to her wedding, she looked happier than she ever has. I also loved when Philip told her that her father would be proud of her (even if thats probably not true, it was a very kind thing to say) and when they held hands for a minute when they were in the carriage. I hope we see more of their relationship, I think that they would get along. 

Speaking of, what was the deal with the Philip playing sports thing? Did no one tell Philip his kid was being born, or was that just about he was doing at the time? I didn't get it. Anyway, I did quite like the part when Philip was being flirty with Elizabeth and they were giggling together about the pregnancy. Philip can be an asshole, but he certainly has his moments. 

Tommy talking about Tony's "uninterest in the straight Christian lifestyle" was amazing. That was a conversation between two people who are so intensely uncomfortable with everything happening in this conversation. 

[CousinAmy]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Margaret really is just terribly immature, isn't she? I do feel bad for her, as she is clearly unhappy and still heartbroken about Peter, and that leads to her making VERY poor life choices, but she is also such a pain to deal with for her staff and her sister. Poor Elizabeth is so trying to be nice to Margaret and Margaret just keeps sniping at her and complaining about everything, even right after Elizabeth pushed a baby out! She is also quite petty (I have to make sure that my announcement is out before my ex boyfriends damn it!) and seems to be getting married only because she A. just wants to marry someone, and B. because she likes the idea of being all bohemian and modern, and marrying Tony is a way to get close to that life, without having to give up any of the thing about being royal she likes.

Way back in 1972 my best friend was bemoaning her existence; here she was 23 and some of our friends were already on their second husbands!  and she hadn't been married at all! She married the first guy who asked her. (40+ years and they're still together.) I think Margaret was more than ready to be married off, nearing 30 she was getting near old maid territory. She kind of had to marry somebody. Her mistake was marrying Tony, although I think she would have been bored to tears with Peter or even some suitable young fellow. At least she got some whirlwind romance in the beginning.

[Anothermi]

On 2017-12-18 at 8:49 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Tony said it to someone (I can’t remember if it was Margaret or maybe the couple) during this episode. 

ETA: Here’s the quote from the show:

So it's most likely to be an earldom - what they'll give me to make me acceptable. Not a fucking dukedom or a marquisate. But as husband to the Queen's sister, I'd still rank higher than the man my mother took as her second husband, the Irishman, when she left my father. And I'd rank higher than the son she gave him, little Brendan, le vicomte. On our trips to Ireland, he, Brendan, would travel first class in the train and my stepbrother would travel in second class, and I was made to travel third. The runt son from the unsatisfactory first marriage with no title. And a polio-twisted leg.

ETA 2: I don’t know why the show had him say that his stepbrother was in second class. Tony’s mother had two sons with her second husband: Brendan (the viscount in first class) and Martin (I’m assuming this was the kid in second class). Both of them were Tony’s half brothers. His mother’s new husband had no other children so Tony did not have a stepbrother. 

Thanks for providing that @ElectricBoogaloo. I remembered when he said that, and who he said it to, but I didn't catch the part where he added "polio-twisted leg".  Because of missing that line, I too, was bewildered by the scene where he hid a cane before Margaret came in.

Regarding the strange story of him having to ride third-class... I took him to be engaging in a spot of sardonic allegory to lay out how he viewed his relationship with his mother. It is somewhat more entertaining than crying "mummy never loved me" - which I could have sympathy with at the time she left him and his father and moved on to another man of "higher" station - but not at his current age.

Their exchange in the car on the way to the wedding actually made me have sympathy for HER.  I silently cheered when she responded "Darling, I do hope you haven't done all this for me."  She was enjoying being a part of all the pomp (as betrayed at one point by the smallest of smiles as she waved to the public) but having him bring up what was likely a well worn complaint of "you never loved me" as the only thing he could think to say about his impending wedding would have earned her the luxury of at least an eye roll.

This episode left no room for doubt that Tony had as many Mummy issues as Margaret had Daddy issues. Perhaps the only difference between them was that he had bohemian friends who might be entertained by and sympathize with his poor-me stories while Margaret just had never-ending rules and protocols that she was expected to rise above.

[I just read on Wikipedia that his parents divorced when he was 5 and "As a schoolboy he contracted polio while on holiday at their country home in Wales. During the six months that he was in Liverpool Royal Infirmary recuperating, his only family visits were from his sister Susan."  This may have been the beginning of his apparent life-long sense of being abandoned by his mother. Still, the show laid that issue on rather thickly.

If the 1st, 2nd, 3rd class story was real I expect it happened once and there were extenuating circumstances that would explain the situation. Still, I find in my own memory that certain family stories/memories take on a larger-than-life significance and stand in as explanations for broader family dynamics, so why not Tony's?]

Edited December 31, 2017 by Anothermi
typo correction

[dubbel zout]

4 hours ago, CousinAmy said:

I think she would have been bored to tears with Peter

Same. I think she'd have been ready to strangle him after a few years, if it took even that long. 

Peter Townsend was the one who got away, so Margaret romanticized what could have been. I kind of think she wasn't meant to be married, though maybe she could have found someone who could put up with her. Margaret wasn't an easy person to live with, though, it seems.

[Scarlett45]

On 12/21/2017 at 0:03 PM, Roseanna said:

 

I can't understand that kind of attitude. Has anyone proven that these letters were something else than innocent? 

In Finland it was women and girls' duty to write to soldiers and thus keep theiir spirit up. If one hadn't anyone one knew at the front, one wrote to the "unknown soldier". 

Also, girls under 18 years worked in the war hosipitals or stood air-traffic control towers. 

I agree with you. They were writing letters, not sending pornographic photos to each other. I am sure George VI and The Queen Mother didn’t mind the beginning of the courtship, since Elizabeth was obviously attracted to him, he was of noble birth and if they were still interested in each other when she came of age to marry at least they had spent time (years) getting to know each other at a distance- no danger of any impropriety.

 

I have to say Margaret’s wedding dress WAS beautiful. She married Tony because yes, socially she “had” to marry someone, especially if she wanted children.  At almost 30 she was older for a first time bride of her social class. They got along and seemed to have hot sex, so she figured “why not” (that’s not as strange even among regular folk). I do think Margaret knew that Tony had other lovers and was bisexual- she probably didn’t care since they had a good sex life together. (Not as if he was a 6 on the Kinsey scale and marrying him would mean celibacy for her) As far as homosexuality being a crime in the UK, yes it as a crime but gay people still existed (and had families and relationships) and socially among artists and performers there was not the pearl clutching of middle class society. As always aristocrats did what they wanted in private with little push back- getting caught or outed was the issue. 

Edited December 31, 2017 by Scarlett45

[pasdetrois]

Having worked my way through season 2, and loving the production values, I'm popping in here to say that the Tony/Margaret episodes seem like they are from another show. I see two skilled actors chewing the scenery and desperate efforts to sex up the show. Puts me in mind of a second-rate series on a middling network that sinks from sight after one season. Just all wrong.

Margaret never had the effortless sexy chic that has been shown here. She and her sister were/are short and curvy and often appeared dumpy and matronly in their expensive clothing.

I have always thought Margaret's wedding ensemble was stunning. I also liked Princess Anne's:  Princess Anne's wedding dress

Speaking of Anne, I think this was the episode that shows Charles and Anne getting dressed up. Did we see a small flash of Anne's infamous crabby mood? I thought there was a moment when she slapped at the hands of the person dressing her in her finery.

I absolutely loathe all the cigarette smoking. I think it is a cheap effort to lend atmosphere and depth to a scene. The same way actors are always strolling over to a bar and mixing drinks.

Edited January 4, 2018 by pasdetrois

[Clanstarling]

29 minutes ago, pasdetrois said:

 

I absolutely loathe all the cigarette smoking. I think it is a cheap effort to lend atmosphere and depth to a scene. The same way actors are always strolling over to a bar and mixing drinks.

 

I hate smoking, never indulged. But I grew up in this era, and smoking was everywhere. In the 1980's I was still surrounded by smokers at work. So I believe it's very much on point for this historical drama, even if I don't care for it.

[pasdetrois]

Believe me, I'm aware of the smoking, with a father who smoked two packs a day during this time period. I just hate it as a production device.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

Believe me, I'm aware of the smoking, with a father who smoked two packs a day during this time period. I just hate it as a production device.

Oh, I agree. I think there are many times smoking is used that way in film and tv, and I have the same response.  In this particular case, it seems to me to be reflective of the world they're re-creating and not a device.

[doodlebug]

5 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Oh, I agree. I think there are many times smoking is used that way in film and tv, and I have the same response.  In this particular case, it seems to me to be reflective of the world they're re-creating and not a device.

Princess Margaret was well known to be a chain smoker, puffing up to 3 packs a day.  People who knew her said she was rarely without a cigarette in her hand.  She was known for smoking continuously while at the dinner table.  If anything, the show doesn't show her smoking enough.  Not surprisingly, she suffered multiple strokes which left her wheelchair bound and almost blind until she suffered a final stroke.

[AZChristian]

I just look at all these chain-smoking ritzy people with their expensive clothing and gowns, and all I can think is, "Wow.  I bet they smelled awful."

[Clanstarling]

27 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

I just look at all these chain-smoking ritzy people with their expensive clothing and gowns, and all I can think is, "Wow.  I bet they smelled awful."

And you'd win. I've always found it amusing when smokers think that if they're not actively smoking in your presence, you can't tell that they've been smoking - when in fact they reek.

[Crs97]

My in laws were smokers and so proud of the fan they installed in their home.  So proud, in fact, that they touted its miraculous properties without noticing their asthmatic son was sucking down albuterol and their daughter in law was red-eyed and coughing throughout the weekend visit.

I liked how Clooney handled the smoking in Goodbye and Good Luck.. He knew they all did it so it would be part of the movie, but he also tossed in the ridiculous commercial about how smart and cultured smokers were as a little send up.

[AZChristian]

It's not off topic . . . because George VI died at a young age from lung cancer because of smoking.

I grew up in a small house with 5 smokers.  Even during my younger - and thinner - years, I had no endurance for running and/or walking uphill.  The second-hand smoke when all 5 of them were in one room was the culprit.  There were times when the smoke haze in the room went from about 4 feet from the floor all the way to the ceiling.  I'm pretty sure that I stunk, too.  

In the Jackie Kennedy episode of The Crown, when she mentioned that Buckingham Palace was run down, my first thought was, "And I bet it smells like stale cigarette smoke, too."

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, AZChristian said:

It's not off topic . . . because George VI died at a young age from lung cancer because of smoking.

I grew up in a small house with 5 smokers.  Even during my younger - and thinner - years, I had no endurance for running and/or walking uphill.  The second-hand smoke when all 5 of them were in one room was the culprit.  There were times when the smoke haze in the room went from about 4 feet from the floor all the way to the ceiling.  I'm pretty sure that I stunk, too.  

In the Jackie Kennedy episode of The Crown, when she mentioned that Buckingham Palace was run down, my first thought was, "And I bet it smells like stale cigarette smoke, too."

And I was an underweight baby, and had many respiratory infections as a child. They cleared up about the time my parents laid off the smoking.

[Athena]

On 12/29/2017 at 3:58 PM, tennisgurl said:

Speaking of, what was the deal with the Philip playing sports thing? Did no one tell Philip his kid was being born, or was that just about he was doing at the time? I didn't get it. Anyway, I did quite like the part when Philip was being flirty with Elizabeth and they were giggling together about the pregnancy. Philip can be an asshole, but he certainly has his moments

At the time, fathers were not expected to be in the delivery rooms. Reports indicate that Philip actually played squash with the birth of Charles and not with Andrew. When Elizabeth had Charles, it was a very long and difficult labour. Maybe it was to say that Philip had to do something else to let off his own worries and anxieties about the birth.

[SoWindsor]

Is there a video of Princess margaret picking fluff off peter townsend at the coronation. Apparently this is how they were outed. I can’t find the video online.

[Scarlett45]

11 minutes ago, SoWindsor said:

Is there a video of Princess margaret picking fluff off peter townsend at the coronation. Apparently this is how they were outed. I can’t find the video online.

My friend’s Mom always said “once people have been intimate they forget where the line used to be.”

[Anothermi]

18 minutes ago, SoWindsor said:

Is there a video of Princess margaret picking fluff off peter townsend at the coronation. Apparently this is how they were outed. I can’t find the video online.

I doubt there are "videos" of the event. That was back in the '50s.  Camera were the most portable media at the time. I also doubt reporters even had recording devices for this sort of thing. They took notes and fleshed them out back at the office.  Film cameras couldn't be used for on-the-fly events because they were so big and bulky and cumbersome to set up and/or move around.  They were for scheduled events where they could be set up in advance ... with the best possible positioning to capture the important events.

What was shown was a reporter who was at the event, take note of a very brief act by Margaret and spend some time wondering why he found it note-worthy. Once he figured it out he alerted his boss who gave him permission to dig and see if he was on to something.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Anothermi
spelling

[SoWindsor]

21 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I doubt there are "videos" of the event. That was back in the '50s.  Camera were the most portable media at the time. I also doubt reporters even had recording devices for this sort of thing. They took notes and fleshed them out back at the office.  Film cameras couldn't be used for on-the-fly events because they were so big and bulky and cumbersome to set up and/or move around.  They were for scheduled events where they could be set up in advance ... with the best possible positioning to capture the important events.

What was shown was a reporter who was at the event, take note of a very brief act by Margaret and spend some time wondering why he found it note-worthy. Once he figured it out he alerted his boss who gave him permission to dig and see if he was on to something.

The coronation was recorded though — are you saying they didn’t film certain parts of it?

[secnarf]

11 minutes ago, SoWindsor said:

The coronation was recorded though — are you saying they didn’t film certain parts of it?

I think they included this bit of information in the coronation episode in season 1 - there was a part (arguably the most important part) that was not filmed/broadcast. I can't remember the details or rationale (too little sleep last night!!)