S06.E09: Irreconcilable Differences

[catrox14]

Just now watched the episode in full.

Did Dinah name drop Oliver accidentally? Or did she know that Vigilante already knew? Could she be a triple agent here? Like all along working with Vigilante and Cayden James? That's a reach I know. But that's weird that she just floated his name out there willy nilly. I though JH was really good in this episode.

JFC, stop calling Black Siren "Laurel".  Poor Quentin. I hope he kills her by the time all is said and done. I really do.

Wild Dog...I just started liking you. WTF? I understand his motivations, and I think Oliver did the right thing.

Curtis can GTFO. I'm tired of him. He's so bitter about his marriage failing and not willing to accept that he was why it failed because he lied for so long. I think right now he's on a path to go darkside. I think someone on Team Cayden Villains will turn him. And Helix will be a battleground for he and Felicity. If he goes darkside he'll be a lot more interesting to me.

And the wedding reception was beautiful and perfect.  I've never seen two actors portray such a believable couple in my life. Maybe Aeryn Sun and John Crichton. or maybe Scully and Mulder. But right now, SA and EBR are magic. (Okay Dean and Castiel but they aren't a canon couple like at all but that chemistry. Come on!).

I really enjoyed this one.

[BkWurm1]

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

 Nobody just stomps off and quits the team, because even when they're pissed at their friends, theres still shit to do! Build a bridge and get over it, newbies! There are bad guys to fight!

One of the many reasons I am having a hard time wanting them back.  They are acting SOOOO precious.  In the past when someone has quit the team, and yes, everyone has done it, they had much bigger reasons either emotional or circumstantial backing WHY they were quitting.  Dinah and Curtis just seem to have done it because they are in a huff. 

[DeadZeus]

I was literally watching in disbelief when Curtis and Dinah quit because "OTA invaded their trust and privace"

Oliver just found out someone on the team snitched on him to the FBI! Oliver was 100% in the right. Yet the show spins it in a way that Oliver is in the wrong even though it's total BS.
I'm pretty sure snitching on a superhero identity is worse than trying to investigate said traitor.... Am i the only one that really did not understand Curtis's and Dinah's reason for leaving?
Am i not "Politically correct" enough to think that giving away a heroes secret identity to the FBI so that person can land in jail for the rest of his life>>>>>>>> a suspected traitor's privacy?

I'm calling it that OTA is gonna fail, and apologise and beg the newbies to come back.

[Hiveminder]

1 minute ago, DeadZeus said:

I'm calling it that OTA is gonna fail, and apologise and beg the newbies to come back.

That might just ruin the show for. It would be utterly preposterous. 

[catrox14]

Thinking more about Dinah and Curtis quitting because privacy.

1) Why did they have an expectation of privacy when they do what they do? That made me laugh actually. Like they track you on coms all the time. They spy on people. WTF.

2). Them quitting because they are offended is silly.

Which leads me to some speculation. What if Curtis and Dinah have already gone darkside and if Felicity and Oliver continued to spy on them, it would be discovered so that's why they quit? 

Is that too out there?

[Angel12d]

I've been hard on Oliver in the past but this is something where I'm completely on his side. He went outside his comfort zone and opened the team up to new members, and this is the second time one of the newbies has betrayed his trust. And it's not over something simple either, it's his freedom at stake. I imagine Oliver is feeling terrified by that right now, considering he finally has everything he ever wanted - his son, his sister back, his wife. Rene's testimony has the potential of taking that all away from him. Oliver has every right to be mad, even if Rene's reasons for testifying come from a good place.

So the show can try to frame it as Oliver and OTA in the wrong but I'm never gonna accept that so more fool them for even trying. Haha.

[tangerine95]

Yeah it's so weird to me that the show usually frames Oliver as in the wrong when I think he's right and sympathize with him and as in the right when I think he's being a jerk lol.Like when he came back in season 4 and the team acted like assholes towards him even tho I thought he was being totally reasonable and even nice but it was supposed be that he wasn't being a good team player.And when I basically almost hated him in season 5 for being a huge hypocrite about what Thea and Felicity did to Susan that was supposed to be him being some beacon of morality.

I'm honestly not sure if we're supposed to see him as in the wrong here tho.Because that scene with Thea had him acknowledge the hypocrisy about being angry and also has Thea point out he never sold anyone out no matter his mistakes and then it ends with him deciding to forgive.And I'm not even sure if we're supposed to take Rene and Curtis not listening to his orders as the wrong call or not.I think it was a dumb move that helped nothing and no one and seemed to come out of them being pissed at OTA and wanting to rebel like little kids.But who knows what it's actually supposed to be.

[Morrigan2575]

Did the show frame Oliver in the wrong? I didn't see it like that but, given the comments I'm now wondering if that was their intention?

I suppose it could have been since they deliberately didn't throw back Dinah and Curtis' hypocrisy in their faces.

[Angel12d]

I think it's possible the show was framing Oliver in the wrong, especially given that SA said something about not being mad that people were mad at Oliver or something along those lines? I can't remember the quote exactly but he spoke about making sure the anger was directed at Oliver for the right reasons?

That being said, I didn't think Oliver was in the wrong at all but then like @tangerine95 said, I've also often felt the complete opposite to the writers intentions. Like when Felicity and Thea were supposed to be terrible people for what they did to Susan when I was actually cheering them on. LOL.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Angel12d

[Morrigan2575]

15 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I think it's possible the show was framing Oliver in the wrong, especially given that SA said something about not being mad that people were mad at Oliver or something along those lines? I can't remember the quote exactly but he spoke about making sure the anger was directed at Oliver for the right reasons?

That being said, I didn't think Oliver was in the wrong at all but then like @tangerine95 said, I've also felt the complete opposite to the writers intentions. Like when Felicity and Thea were supposed to be terrible people for what they did to Susan when I was actually cheering them on. LOL.

Yeah, very true the show has definitely tried to paint a story that I just never saw before. It's entirely possible that they want OTA to come off as little shits...meanwhile I'll be over here going Die Noobs Die!

Edited December 9, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[way2interested]

I don't think the show framed it as Oliver in the wrong, or at least if they did they didn't frame him in the wrong as they usually frame wrongs on this show. When Oliver or another character in the show is "wrong," they are usually punished in the narrative in some way (Oliver lied to Felicity and then subsequently lost her and his son, Diggle kept his drug use a secret and now is injured and can't go out with the team, etc.). And if both parties are both seen as right and wrong they are usually both punished at the same time (when Oliver and Diggle were fighting, they didn't ask for each other's help and both failed in their solo missions, when Oliver and Felicity were against each other they were both trapped in the bunker, etc.).

In this case, it kind of seems like a slightly different version of the latter situation, since members have quit the team before without anything being anyone's fault. Oliver was merely seen as in the wrong for jumping to being angry at Rene which then he walked back in the later scene (*character development*), and, if anything, by the end of the episode the fact that a good portion of the this in-group fighting seems to be from manipulation from Team Villain (maybe all if Watson ends up secretly being on Team Villain or something), they're kind of all absolved from any true fault.

Just now, Angel12d said:

I think it's possible the show was framing Oliver in the wrong, especially given that SA said something about not being mad that people were mad at Oliver or something along those lines? I can't remember the quote exactly but he spoke about making sure the anger was directed at Oliver for the right reasons?

The thing is though being mad at a character doesn't necessarily mean that the show is framing the character that the anger is directed to as right or wrong. Like in s4 Diggle was rightly mad at Oliver for kidnapping Lyla and leaving Baby Sara alone but once 403 came around the episode was more of framing him in the wrong for not giving Oliver a chance of forgiveness.

[Angel12d]

Just now, Morrigan2575 said:

Yeah, very true the show has definitely tried to paint a story that I just never saw before. It's entirely possible that they want OTA to come off as little shits...meanwhile I'll be over here going Die Noobs Dien

I also think it's possible that no side is supposed to be completely innocent, too. I'm actually not 100% sure what they were going for there tbh. But I'm always gonna choose OTA's side so IDK. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

22 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Did the show frame Oliver in the wrong? I didn't see it like that but, given the comments I'm now wondering if that was their intention?

I suppose it could have been since they deliberately didn't throw back Dinah and Curtis' hypocrisy in their faces.

I didn't think the show framed Oliver as wrong, in fact I thought the show was pretty clear about Oliver's reasons and the newbies acting like petty little shits. Which why I'm wondering where some of these reviewers are coming from. I wonder if the show of unity by OTA is meant to convey they are wrong for being so intractable? But that's just nuts! 

I'm happy to have OTA again, but I'm not looking forward to how the show is going to manufacture a reconciliation. I wish the show would take this time to get rid of the noobs. They've annoyed me even more in this episode.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think we are supposed to think both sides have a point..they had WD do something wrong but had Thea talk to Oliver and point out how he had a good reason. Then the right thing to do would have been to confront the newbies like Dig suggested so they framed Oliver (and Felicity and Diggle) as wrong there but also Dinah as wrong because she was meeting in secret with Vigilante and WD and Curtis as wrong because they didn’t listen to Oliver in the field. The main problem is that both sides don’t trust each other and that’s what they’ll have to solve and I think it’ll have to be mutual. That’s what they were trying to tell us imo even if I feel like it’s better to lose than to find people like WD and Dinah as teammates, while Curtis is annoying but didn’t betray anyone.

[leopardprint]

30 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I've been hard on Oliver in the past but this is something where I'm completely on his side.

Even I agree with Oliver and I think he exists in a permanent state of wrongness. 

Arrow is obsessed with the concept of family above all (especially male family) so I think it's basically Oliver is putting his family first and Rene is also putting his family first? Even though doing terrible things to non-family members for family members is not really right in my view (Merlyn).

[LeighAn]

This guys reaction is adorable and the absolute best:

I love male Olicity shippers. 

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

This guys reaction is adorable and the absolute best:

I love male Olicity shippers. 

That's the guy I was talking about in my post in the Media thread LOL

[LeighAn]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's the guy I was talking about in my post in the Media thread LOL

I should find his channel and watch his reviews ha. 

 

Theres another guy on YouTube who gets soo dreamy and shippy over Olicity. He has a partner with him and it basically like if someone on this forum watched an episode of Arrow with someone from Reddit cause his partner gives of the impression that he's not a fan of Felicity beyond commenting on her appearance. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

I should find his channel and watch his reviews ha. 

I watch is SPN and Arrow reviews. I enjoy them quite a bit.

[EmilyBettFan]

On 12/8/2017 at 9:04 AM, BunsenBurner said:

Here’s my problem with Curtis. He quits the team because of his anger at being tracked but immediately says but not the company. Felicity tracked you, your anger/disappointment should be at her not Oliver or Diggle. Why aren’t you quitting the company?  You were with the team a lot longer than the other 2 newbies and Oliver never accused you. I know it’s plot but it makes no sense. 

Well he has no leg to stand on either when it comes to tracking since he tracked Felicity in season 5.

Edited December 11, 2017 by EmilyBettFan

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I think we are supposed to think both sides have a point..they had WD do something wrong but had Thea talk to Oliver and point out how he had a good reason. Then the right thing to do would have been to confront the newbies like Dig suggested so they framed Oliver (and Felicity and Diggle) as wrong there but also Dinah as wrong because she was meeting in secret with Vigilante and WD and Curtis as wrong because they didn’t listen to Oliver in the field. The main problem is that both sides don’t trust each other and that’s what they’ll have to solve and I think it’ll have to be mutual. That’s what they were trying to tell us imo even if I feel like it’s better to lose than to find people like WD and Dinah as teammates, while Curtis is annoying but didn’t betray anyone.

I really hope they frame the solution to be one of needing to build and strengthen trust rather than just needing each other so they have to suck it up.  

I am curious if MG was just trying to spin the rift when he was poo pooing claims of it being just temporary.  I rather doubt it's going to be anything else but temporary but MAYBE we might par the team down by one or two?  I'd say dump WD and Curtis from the team.  Let Rene work at City Hall and Curtis show up with Felicity's company but otherwise, so long boys!

Pipe dream perhaps but that's what winter hiatus's are for, right? 

[TwistedandBored]

I just had three reactions during this episode. 

I was fangirling hard during the first part

.

 

Bored during the middle.

 

Happy when Team Stupid left OTA alone like bye bitches. 

[Hiveminder]

35 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I really hope they frame the solution to be one of needing to build and strengthen trust rather than just needing each other so they have to suck it up.  

I am curious if MG was just trying to spin the rift when he was poo pooing claims of it being just temporary.  I rather doubt it's going to be anything else but temporary but MAYBE we might par the team down by one or two?  I'd say dump WD and Curtis from the team.  Let Rene work at City Hall and Curtis show up with Felicity's company but otherwise, so long boys!

Pipe dream perhaps but that's what winter hiatus's are for, right? 

I just hope they don't use this to have Oliver learn another lesson about how he has to trust people.  His trust issues are well documented, but this is not an instance where his mistrust was unwarranted or uncalled for.  

[BkWurm1]

31 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I just hope they don't use this to have Oliver learn another lesson about how he has to trust people.  His trust issues are well documented, but this is not an instance where his mistrust was unwarranted or uncalled for.  

Exactly.   I think that's one of the things that is pissing me off about the Newbs reaction.  Something really terrible is happening to Oliver and all they can think about it their hurt feelings.  How is this the time to be pissy about lack of trust?  Put a fricken pin in it.  

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

Exactly.   I think that's one of the things that is pissing me off about the Newbs reaction.  Something really terrible is happening to Oliver and all they can think about it their hurt feelings.  How is this the time to be pissy about lack of trust?  Put a fricken pin in it.  

Plus, it's not something that is just happening to Oliver, they (Rene and Dinah) are participating in it, and both the indictment and being in cahoots with the Vigilante could have serious consequences for every team member.

[DeadZeus]

Exactly, but i also remember Rene going off on his own when he created "unhurtable Stardust". Oliver was angry at him, as he should be! But Oliver was the one that had to apologise to WD!!!!
Which is why im 99% sure the same will happen now. OTA is gonna apologise to them... guaranteed.

[BkWurm1]

54 minutes ago, DeadZeus said:

Exactly, but i also remember Rene going off on his own when he created "unhurtable Stardust". Oliver was angry at him, as he should be! But Oliver was the one that had to apologise to WD!!!!
Which is why im 99% sure the same will happen now. OTA is gonna apologise to them... guaranteed.

I'm sure you are right, but I'm hoping that maybe they will ALSO apologize for walking out.  

[bijoux]

I will also need them to profusely and sincerely apologize for ratting out team members and fraternizing with the enemy. And then graciously wait and see whether they will or won't be invited to the big kids table.

Edited December 10, 2017 by bijoux

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, if the newbies all have to crawl back and grovel for forgiveness for being a bunch of whinny idiots who endangered the team, I will actually be alright with all of this. If Oliver has to apologize for not "trusting" them, and they show up to save the team, my eyes will roll so hard they might fall off. 

[leopardprint]

33 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Yeah, if the newbies all have to crawl back and grovel for forgiveness for being a bunch of whinny idiots who endangered the team, I will actually be alright with all of this. If Oliver has to apologize for not "trusting" them, and they show up to save the team, my eyes will roll so hard they might fall off. 

So when Oliver can no longer take on bad guys he's never had problems with before then dumb people can blame his marriage to Felicity for weakening him. Oh joy. Like Rene and Curtis add anything to the team. 

Edited December 10, 2017 by leopardprint

[tennisgurl]

5 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

So when Oliver can no longer take on bad guys he's never had problems with before then dumb people can blame his marriage to Felicity for weakening him. Oh joy. Like Rene and Curtis add anything to the team. 

I want him to defeat endless lines of bad guys, and then turn to Felicity and say "Thanks honey, I am such a better badass because I married you. Your with a thousand whinny idiots who dont even contribute much to anything".

[Al Herkimer]

In his earlier conversation with Dinah, Vigilante sneered at having killed a cop as "collateral damage."  That didn't turn Dinah against him irrevocably?  In fact, when she "needed a friend" later in the episode he's the first person she thinks of.  Either it turns out that she's acting as a double agent or she's outright evil, and no amount of changing her mind later on is going to redeem her.

Also irredeemable - Rene, after the diabolical way he twisted the knife with that mockery of a toast, knowing all the while that he was working with the FBI to betray Oliver's trust and to destroy Oliver's family.

[legaleagle53]

11 minutes ago, Al Herkimer said:

Also irredeemable - Rene, after the diabolical way he twisted the knife with that mockery of a toast, knowing all the while that he was working with the FBI to betray Oliver's trust and to destroy Oliver's family.

Curtis's bitter, jealous, drunken rant wasn't much better.  Hell, Adam Sandler's character wasn't that much of a jerk in The Wedding Singer.

[DeadZeus]

Who knows, they might pull a S2 on us and Oliver is playing the enemy AND the audience by pretending he doesn't know the cameras are there.. I loved that twist back in S2. But so far there is no evidence of that.

[GHScorpiosRule]

GOOD RIDDANCE to Bad Rubbish, I say. I never thought Oliver needed the noobs to begin with. He was doing fine without them.

So Rene agrees to betray Oliver because Watson promised him he’d get his daughter back? Something that Oliver and Quentin managed to make possible without threats, but which he screwed up on purpose because he didn’t feel like fighting for her? Oh WAAAAIT. He was promised immunity for being a vigilante himself. So of COURSE he couldn’t let Oliver know he was going to testify against him.

I’ve never liked Curtis or Dinah, and if they go away and never come back, nothing would make me happier. But I’m not allowed to have nice things. And I also refuse to believe Oliver doesn’t want to be the Green Arrow anymore. REFUSE.

And not to start a debate or argument, but, I think, as their good friends and allies, that Barry and Iris would have been at the reception. It’s not as if those characters haven’t shown up for five seconds and that’s it.

Unless I missed it and this took place when Barry and Iris were on their honeymoon? 

Also? Lyla SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE.

Was this Arrow’s take on The Tower of Babel?

[Midnight Lullaby]

I would have had Barry and Iris at the reception but I have the feeling she wouldn’t have taken well being at someone else’s reception this week. And I’m pretty sure the problem with Lyla is that the actress isn’t always available.

[LeighAn]

Iris returned Felicity and Olivers thoughtfully picked out wedding gift because she was both bitter it wasn't on her registry and because she was bitter about them sharing their impromptu wedding- no way could I see that bitter Betty going to Oliver and Felicity's reception even if she were invited.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, LeighAn said:

Iris returned Felicity and Olivers thoughtfully picked out wedding gift because she was both bitter it wasn't on her registry and because she was bitter about them sharing their impromptu wedding- no way could I see that bitter Betty going to Oliver and Felicity's reception even if she were invited.  

Like I posted up thread, I am not looking to argue or debate- just based on the characters’ friendship up to this point, I would have thought Barry and Iris would be there.

What happened this week on The Flash, I am blaming on the writers. They shouldn’t have written that.

[Primal Slayer]

After this episode I really want Lyla out of Argus or at least demoted. Don't get me wrong, I love her, but having her the head of Argus just fixes to many potential storylines and lets the gang get away with to much to easily. Either revive Amanda Waller or bring in someone new who doesnt play TA's game. Argus could be a big threat in the future and a good one at that.

[Featherhat]

I'm just assuming they were on their honeymoon. If they'd shown up maybe Iris could have worn her wedding dress and called it a joint reception. ;) I think Iris's comments were supposed to be "funny" bridezilla stuff, though there might have been writer bitterness in there. But hey they too could have written nice post wedding get together scenes or honeymoon scenes if they'd wanted. 

4 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

After this episode I really want Lyla out of Argus or at least demoted. Don't get me wrong, I love her, but having her the head of Argus just fixes to many potential storylines and lets the gang get away with to much to easily. Either revive Amanda Waller or bring in someone new who doesnt play TA's game. Argus could be a big threat in the future and a good one at that.

According to LOT they are, I'm currently blaming Barry (though we don't know what actually happened), but it may end up being a defunct/alternate timeline.

[tennisgurl]

2 hours ago, Featherhat said:

According to LOT they are, I'm currently blaming Barry (though we don't know what actually happened), but it may end up being a defunct/alternate timeline.

I was actually just thinking about that earlier today. Over on Legends of Tomorrow, the gang heads to a future where ARGUS is running the world as a fascist state where metahumans are hunted, imprisoned, and experimented on, and just being a metahuman is illegal, and you apparently lose all rights by being one. In fact, considering new team member Zari was trying to save her brother, who was jailed for using magic, and the creepy ARGUS drones of doom tried to arrest non metahumans Sara, Mick, and Ray under some kind of anti metahuman act that had them all on a "arrest, lock up, and throw away the key" list, I assume that all metahumans, aliens, heroes, magic users, or anyone associated with them were locked up as well. Now, what I am wondering, is if Oliver's FBI issues are somehow tied into this? We know that ARGUS is a shady government agency, but under Lyla, its become slightly less sketchy, but who knows how long Lyla will have it? What if there are already people in ARGUS who are hoping to get rid of all these superheroes/villains/whoever, or use them for their own goals? What if there are people in other agencies, like the FBI, who feel the same way? What if Watson (who clearly has a MASSIVE hate on for vigilantes) is pushing this prosecution of vigilantes not because she wants to leave law enforcement to professionals, but because its the first step to get rid of all vigilantes and metas and everyone else, or using them for their own nefarious purposes? Maybe this is the start of the ARGUS world we saw in LoT? 

Of course, its fully possible that the future has already been changed, and none of that will even happen, or that these things are totally unconnected, but I feel like ARGUS is a concept that can be used better, and could become more of a threat. It could even be a decent subject for next years cross over. So, if by next season all our heroes are living their own personal Stranger Things Hell, I guess we can all thank Rene #thanksrene.

Edited December 11, 2017 by tennisgurl

[jay741982]

On 12/9/2017 at 8:34 PM, LeighAn said:

This guys reaction is adorable and the absolute best:

I love male Olicity shippers. 

Awww thank you Male Olicity shipper here! 

[tennisgurl]

8 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Curtis's bitter, jealous, drunken rant wasn't much better.  Hell, Adam Sandler's character wasn't that much of a jerk in The Wedding Singer.

I mean, say what you will about Oliver and Felicity, at least they didn't actually grab the mic in front of everyone and give a bitter, angry, jealous, self centered, asshole speech, killing everyone's mood. Just saying...

[Quark]

Definitely the worst of the Arrowverse mid-season finales. I was quite bored.

When I was watching the start of the episode with the wedding reception and Felicity walks in with the loud music in slow motion, it occurred to me that Arrow is probably now the "lightest" in relation to all the other Arrowverse shows. Ironic, considering it was originally the darkest.

Cayden James, whilst played by a good actor, doesn't do it for me. He doesn't seem like the seasons Big Bad. It would have been nice if his motivation wasn't just revenge. I'd love it if there was some big twist regarding his identity or possibly his motivation, like he is Ra's al Ghul's son or something (we have met his daughters, why not the son?) and he wants to reinvent the League of Assassins in Star City. I miss the League of Assassins.

Couldn't care less about the newbies and there issues, although I don't really care about the original team either. I think the only characters I'm invested in at the moment are Thea, Quentin and Black Siren.

Hope things improve after the break.

[shadow2008]

Does anybody else think that Vigilante comes across as a total creep? And I don't mean creepy as in "I used to be an undercover cop, but then a job went horribly wrong and I got shot in the head and left for dead; and now that I have turned into a metahuman, I have sort of lost my marbles and decided to take justice into my own hands." I mean "I love to stalk unsuspecting women in underground parking lots late at night, drag them into the bushes and do all kinds of unspeakable things to them" type of creepy. I really don't think that's what the writers are going for, but the actor just keeps giving off that kind of vibe to me.   

Edited December 11, 2017 by shadow2008

[Jacks-Son]

I know I'm definitely in the minority, but I thought that Oliver overreacted. Sure, Rene snitched, but he was caught between a rock and a hard place. I'm with Diggle, instead of jumping to a conclusion that Dinah was the guilty party, he should have just asked them. To me, this whole episode showed Oliver as OOC. I know he was embarrassed by the FBI arrest in front of everyone, including "Buddy"/"Myson" and that was painful, but I think he took it out on the team. They've been on board with Oliver and risked their lives because they believed in him. I don't blame them for leaving in a snit. I never had a problem with the Newbies, except for perhaps Curtis, whom I think is a bit of a silly nerd, but I liked Dinah and even Rene, & Curtis, to some extent. I don't like the direction the show has taken recently.

The impromptu Olicity wedding was horrible and disrespected Barry & Iris. The writers are letting Arrow fans down with this crap. I would welcome the newbies back with Oliver eating some crow.

[BkWurm1]

8 hours ago, Jacks-Son said:

I know I'm definitely in the minority, but I thought that Oliver overreacted. Sure, Rene snitched, but he was caught between a rock and a hard place. I'm with Diggle, instead of jumping to a conclusion that Dinah was the guilty party, he should have just asked them. To me, this whole episode showed Oliver as OOC. I know he was embarrassed by the FBI arrest in front of everyone, including "Buddy"/"Myson" and that was painful, but I think he took it out on the team. They've been on board with Oliver and risked their lives because they believed in him. I don't blame them for leaving in a snit. I never had a problem with the Newbies, except for perhaps Curtis, whom I think is a bit of a silly nerd, but I liked Dinah and even Rene, & Curtis, to some extent. I don't like the direction the show has taken recently.

 

From my standpoint, Rene proved his complete lack of faith and trust in Oliver and the whole team when he decided to save himself by throwing Oliver to the FBI.  I just don't see how it can be reasoned that he was in a no win situation.  No, he was in a situation where he could either win or RISK losing.  He wasn't willing to take the risk or rely on what others could do to help him.  What he found impossible to live with, risking not being able to be with his daughter, is what he guaranteed would happen to Oliver with his testimony. 

It's the most basic of betrayals.  This wasn't even a situation where his kid was in danger. Anyone could be forgiven if a life was at stake, but just the possibility of the current situation not changing?   Oliver overreacted IMO when he sympathized with the choice Rene made.  Oliver risked damaging his other relationships with his bad choices around William (and ended up losing his relationship with Felicity when he broke the trust and shut her out), but as pointed out, he would never have made a choice that took away from someone else the very relationship with their child that he was trying to establish with his. 

And in the face of such a complete betrayal, I can't understand how the other newbs could focus on their hurt feelings in that moment.  They were betrayed by Rene as well.  I get being mad at Oliver or bringing it up later but why show such trust and solidarity with Rene?   

Cause that's what Dinah quitting felt like.  Oh, you are going to kick him out cause you don't' trust him?  Well, in retaliation I'm not going to trust you either anymore then.   Curtis at least took a day to think about it, but since he did to Felicity something a step more invasive than what was done to him, he has no credibility with his indignance.     I mean, if Felicity working with another group but not willing to tell Curtis about it was enough reason to feed her tracking nanites that he was still tracking until the bunker got blown up, then a real known Judas among the team should have been reason enough for Curtis to accept the team watching his movements.  It was in his best interest and Dinah's for them to figure out who the mole was ASAP.  But the newbs don't seem to take that into account at all.  No one wanted to believe they had a betrayer, but it was fact that they did.  

If they wanted to make this a more even sided issue, then I think they should have had the OTA mistrust the Newbs and it not be any of them but be a recording or Evelyn or Nyssa for some reason.     Give them a real leg to stand on.

Edited December 14, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Jacks-Son]

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

10 hours ago, Jacks-Son said:

 

From my standpoint, Rene proved his complete lack of faith and trust in Oliver and the whole team when he decided to save himself by throwing Oliver to the FBI.  I just don't see how it can be reasoned that he was in a no win situation.  No, he was in a situation where he could either win or RISK losing.  He wasn't willing to take the risk or rely on what others could do to help him.  What he found impossible to live with, risking not being able to be with his daughter, is what he guaranteed would happen to Oliver with his testimony.

He didn't decide to save himself, he was trying to save his daughter from having a father in prison. "Win or RISK losing" is not really a 50-50 chance. It's more like "LOSE or risk winning". The odds are in favor of losing. His daughter versus Oliver and his son.

“Fringe” S4 E18, “The Consultant”   “Don’t judge him. No one can be certain exactly what they’re capable of.  How far they’ll go to save the ones they love.”

--Walter Bishop

Would Oliver have RISKED losing his son by not turning over Rene if he were in his shoes?

[Midnight Lullaby]

Honestly I think season 1-early season 2 Oliver would have reacted way worse than this. He has become more understanding and less angry in general with the years. Rene snitching isn’t this little thing..he was planning to send Oliver to jail for life to save his own ass and it’s not like he told the team he changed his mind, he realized he can’t sell Oliver out. He is still going to do it. So what was Oliver supposed to do? Accept his apology and hug him? That guy is going to ruin his life. Overacting would have been locking him in the cage in the bunker to stop him from testifying but this isn’t HTGAWM.

Also the whole team should realize that this means troubles for everyone. Oliver might be the target now but once you cut the head you move to the body, so they are next. And this includes Rene if after his testimony he thinks he can go back to be WD.

[Midnight Lullaby]

2 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

He didn't decide to save himself, he was trying to save his daughter from having a father in prison. "Win or RISK losing" is not really a 50-50 chance. It's more like "LOSE or risk winning". The odds are in favor of losing. His daughter versus Oliver and his son.

“Fringe” S4 E18, “The Consultant”   “Don’t judge him. No one can be certain exactly what they’re capable of.  How far they’ll go to save the ones they love.”

--Walter Bishop

Would Oliver have RISKED losing his son by not turning over Rene if he were in his shoes?

The daughter he abandoned and had to be convinced by Quentin and Oliver to have a relationship with? If he really cared that much about her instead of playing vigilante he would have tried to have a relationship with her. Or at least quit being a vigilante the second he decided he wanted her back, which he didn’t do and now the FBI can blackmail him for something he chose to do, he isn’t some innocent bystander.

If the FBI had the proof to send them both to jail they would have done it, instead they offered a criminal immunity to nail another one. That alone is showing their hand. That’s what they do when they don’t have enough to convict so their odds are in favor of winning if anything. I don’t miss Laurel but having a lawyer around (written as capable of doing her job) would have been helpful in situation like these.

If there’s one good quality about Oliver is how much he is willing to sacrifice himself for other people so no, I can’t see him selling someone out to save his ass because of something he did. I can see him looking for a way out now that he has a son to take care of when in the past he would have just given up and gone to prison to take the fall for the whole team because he thought he deserved it.