S06.E09: Irreconcilable Differences

[leopardprint]

6 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

Was Dinah wearing a fabric blazer over a leather jacket? If so, why? 

If Team Arrow needs six heroes to match the six villains, I'll take Speedy, Arsenal, and Ragman please. Like Thea, I miss Roy.

OMG! This was the big mystery of the episode for me. Apparently it's a blazer/moto jacket combo. 

I think it was bizarre that Felicity's estranged, fugitive father appeared with no explanation other than Donna invited him, I guess. I agree there wasn't much Olicity in this episode if you compare it to 603 or 604. 

[Mellowyellow]

Felicity's familiarity with them and her comment to Oliver about her crazy family implied that there was some sort of reconciliation offscreen.

Maybe when the bombs went off on Lian Yu, Donna reached out to Noah to potentially mourn the death of their only child and hence all is right in the Smoak household.

[Angel12d]

It would've been nice to see a reconciliation on screen but they just don't want to spend screen time on that, it seems. God forbid! One thing I am glad of, though, is that it was Donna who got back in touch with Noah, which was the right thing to do after she wrongly sent him away. But Felicity was weirdly outside of the whole thing, like she had no role in it.

I'm still surprised they got Tom Amandes back for such little screen time so I do wonder if we're going to see him later in s6b, especially when the Cayden James fallout for Felicity inevitably happens at some point. 

[lion10]

52 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

IDK, this is funny to me because in an episode which featured Olicity's wedding, technically there wasn't much Olicity? Yes, their reception lasted for the first 10 minutes but we barely saw Felicity tbh and it was mostly as set up for everything that came after it. We saw Curtis complaining about being on Team Arrow, Rene's speech was to supposedly set up the "shock" of his betrayal, and then there was the "New Team Arrow" 3 interacting, also showing us that Dinah has been texting with Vigilante for weeks and yes, they've noticed. (Also I feel like there has been very little Olicity for most of s6a tbh but what we have seen has been handled really well. Just IMO.)

I do agree that the episode wasn't the best as far as midseason finales go though.

 

My problem isn't Felicity as a character and when Olicity is handled with minimal bullshit drama, it's very cute.  That's why I said that the larger problem with the episode was the earlier parts of Season 6a.  Imo, a midseason finale needs to hit the ground running from the title sequence on, not waste time by sprinkling little bits of plot through the first 10 minutes.  I'm not specifically hating on the reception, it's just that for me, the plot really began 10-11 minutes in.

[Angel12d]

2 minutes ago, lion10 said:

 

My problem isn't Felicity as a character and when Olicity is handled with minimal bullshit drama, it's very cute.  That's why I said that the larger problem with the episode was the earlier parts of Season 6a.  Imo, a midseason finale needs to hit the ground running from the title sequence on, not waste time by sprinkling little bits of plot through the first 10 minutes.  I'm not specifically hating on the reception, it's just that for me, the plot really began 10-11 minutes in.

Oh, I totally got what you were saying about the plot not starting until 10 minutes in, and I mostly agree tbh, but IMO I don't think that's anything to do with Olicity and there being too much of it, especially when their whole reception wasn't all about them? I'd completely agree with you if it was just ten minutes of non-stop Olicity but there was a lot of set up for the rest of the episode, mixed in with a few good character interactions, like Quentin/Oliver and Rene/Thea. 

[leopardprint]

30 minutes ago, lion10 said:

 

My problem isn't Felicity as a character and when Olicity is handled with minimal bullshit drama, it's very cute.  That's why I said that the larger problem with the episode was the earlier parts of Season 6a.  Imo, a midseason finale needs to hit the ground running from the title sequence on, not waste time by sprinkling little bits of plot through the first 10 minutes.  I'm not specifically hating on the reception, it's just that for me, the plot really began 10-11 minutes in.

I don't think they setup the distrust issues very well so when NoTA peaced out, it seemed like an extreme response. I think they should have shown Agent Watson trying to get one of the three to turn and then have them put up a strong defense of Oliver and then it's a surprise which one turned so we get more of a sense of betrayal on their end. Sometimes these "shocking twists" are so devoid of setup they just end up distracting instead of pushing the story forward. 

Right now, Rene is legitimately compromised (arguably for good reasons), Dinah is secretly meeting with someone who tried to assassinate Oliver at least twice, and Curtis has violated Felicity's privacy many times. Are we to assume Rene is following through on his FBI deal since he had Zoe with him at the end?

Plots that exist because the characters simply don't communicate are not good ones. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by leopardprint

[BunsenBurner]

Here’s my problem with Curtis. He quits the team because of his anger at being tracked but immediately says but not the company. Felicity tracked you, your anger/disappointment should be at her not Oliver or Diggle. Why aren’t you quitting the company?  You were with the team a lot longer than the other 2 newbies and Oliver never accused you. I know it’s plot but it makes no sense. 

[MissL]

11 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

When Quentin gave Oliver the watch....why not give it to Sara? Im sure she'd like to have something from her grandfather or does Quentin just think she will never settle it down and be able to pass it on? 

Well I guess it depends on if it's a watch that should be actually worn or just something you keep in a drawer. It's a mans watch so if it's supposed to be worn it makes sense to give it to Oliver and to me is a story beat that is trying to show that after all they've been through together Quentin now thinks of him as a son. It was sweet. I personally don't see Sara with children. I don't feel like she would want them. She feels like the type that seeks fulfillment in other ways and I see her saving the world into old age. And maybe Quentin gave her something else of his dads anyway.

Cant figure out how to quote multiple people but someone said it's bad taste considering the role Oliver has had in his daughters lives But I don't in any way blame Oliver for how Laurel and Sara's lives turned out. They are both big girls who made choices. Yeah Oliver's shitty behavior got Sara on that boat but he didn't blow it up and was as big a victim as anyone else. From there life for ALL of them just took a really wicked crazy turn.

And I really felt no sympathy for the newbies. Don't let the door hit ya. And seriously how is Curtis going to keep working with Felicity after walking out like that? Is he just going to ignore when she has to rush out to the lair or the next time their lives are in danger and he's standing right next to her while the y work on Helix stuff and just cross his arms all "nope not involved in that huge part of your life".

[ladylaw99]

So this wasn't the best mid-season finale.  Not the worst for me either..

There were some highlights for me.  The reception was cheesy but I NEED CHEESY in my life.  I admit I was smiling quite a bit through the reception.  I also laughed at Thea and William dancing, I thought it was a cute moment.  I also thought it was sweet that Felicity said she would wait for Oliver if he was put away.  Like the mention of Roy.  I miss Roy.

The Hoffmans,, I had to laugh because neighbours like them really do exist.  

I was so disappointed that there was no speech from Diggle, I get why Rene did it but it really should have been Diggle.

Like I said earlier the episode fell flat for me because I have never been invested in the newbies.  I did not feel bad for any of them, all I felt was good riddance and i am sure that was not suppose to be my feeling.  There was so many people being hypocrites that I lost track.  Diggle was right, OTA should have confronted them instead of spying but the newbies have done the same thing one time or another so I don't feel their betrayal but I do feel Oliver's. Oliver is alot of things but I don't think (correct me if I am wrong) he has betrayed a team member.  

Curtis I don't know why he is around at this point, he really adds nothing but annoyance.

Big bads are not living up to the name.  I need more.  I would be ok with just CJ and Anatoly.  The others can leave, they add nothing.

[calliope1975]

I'm glad they didn't do this, but I might have been more conflicted if Dig had sided with the newbs. Or if the newbs splitting off had been Roy, Thea, and Rory.

But those things didn't happen so I still don't care. Also, the newbs were lying and betraying the team so why would I side with them? Perhaps I'm not supposed to?

[insomniadreams88]

Rewatch notes:

Liked Dinah and Lance dancing. I kind of still wish they were going to get together. (Though, I suppose, we never know what could happen.)

Curtis' "Oliver and Felicity got their happy ending, which is all that matters, to Oliver at least" is even worse the second time around. Seriously, shut up, Curtis. 

Question: When did Vince learn Oliver's GA? Dinah and Vince's conversation just treated it like a fact he knew, so I feel like I forgot that happening on-screen? 

Seriously, Michael Emerson could probably say anything at all, and I'd gladly listen to him. 

I think everything we saw from Cayden and BS could easily be part of Cayden's plan. He reminds her she's to kill Lance in front of Lance. Then he tells her to kill Lance in front of Oliver after he reveals he knows the amplifier was sabotaged. I'm going to assume he knew what Oliver's bow could do because of the cameras since it all ended like he wanted to - team split up. All that fighting really allowed was Cayden the opportunity to escape since he's not a fighter. Having BS let Lance go plants the possibility that BS could be redeemed in Lance's mind, which could drive a wedge between Lance and the team. Basically, it could go either way - BS did exactly what Cayden wanted the entire time or she did choose to let Lance go herself.

[way2interested]

Just now, insomniadreams88 said:

I think everything we saw from Cayden and BS could easily be part of Cayden's plan. He reminds her she's to kill Lance in front of Lance. Then he tells her to kill Lance in front of Oliver after he reveals he knows the amplifier was sabotaged. I'm going to assume he knew what Oliver's bow could do because of the cameras since it all ended like he wanted to - team split up. All that fighting really allowed was Cayden the opportunity to escape since he's not a fighter. Having BS let Lance go plants the possibility that BS could be redeemed in Lance's mind, which could drive a wedge between Lance and the team. Basically, it could go either way - BS did exactly what Cayden wanted the entire time or she did choose to let Lance go herself.

Yeah, all of that, plus what we've seen with him in 604 and 607 makes me think that that is what happened regarding BS. Like 604 and 607 there was a "real" evil plan, and this "real" plan was just to start to drive the wedge between the team.

[Primal Slayer]

While BS letting Quentin go could go either way, they did set up Siren kind of doing what she wants at times. But since I dont see any kind of redemption happening I can easily lean into this all being part of the plan. But we'll see.

[bijoux]

12 hours ago, Soulfire said:

Last GIF post of 2017 --

I missed this. Aw.

12 hours ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

Loved the reception so beautiful, I do wish Roy had actually shown up. I'm not sure how it would've worked since Roy is 'dead' but it would have been great. Do we know if Lance knows the truth? They wouldn't have told him at the time, but have they told him since?

If Noah Kuttler, who as far as I know, is a fugitive from justice was able to attend the mayor's wedding, I don't see why a dead dude's gangbanger shouldn't be able to drop by. I really do wish they threw something in about how and why Noah was attending. Felicity dropping charges, a hint that the Flashpoint changed that and she never actually filed them. And that they gave him more to do, or at least indicated that he'd have more to do in the future.

11 hours ago, Angel12d said:

Does anyone else feel like Anatoly isn't what he seems, with the team of big bads? IDK, I just have a feeling there's gonna be an inside man in there somewhere and he gets my vote.

Haven't thought about that, but I'd definitely approve.

11 hours ago, Trisha said:

Overall I was underwhelmed but that may not be a bad thing. There have been amazing mid season finales twists on Arrow that I've loved (Oliver being kicked off the mountain, Felicity getting shot, etc) but when the show came back it all quickly fell apart. This feels more like it's building to something. I don't mind some set up if they have somewhere to go this time. 

I admit I fell on the side of while enjoyable, this was kind of lowkey, but this makes a lot of sense.

8 hours ago, Ashand11 said:

Lol are these guys for real? Clearly he was right now to trust them. One of them was betraying him. 

And the screechy one was texting and meeting up with an enemy of the team. So... Shame on you, OTA, for bringing that to light.

[SmallScreenDiva]

2 hours ago, Angel12d said:

IDK, this is funny to me because in an episode which featured Olicity's wedding, technically there wasn't much Olicity?

This is actually the case for most of the show's six seasons, there's not that much Olicity considering the hue and cry of the critics. I think some folks see Oliver and Felicity together and just think it's all Olicity when, as you pointed out, there was a lot of setup going on during those scenes.

Anyway, I loved the wedding stuff: the entrance, the little bit with the Smoak-Kuttler-Queen families, Oliver's nervousness when Felicity wasn't there yet (loved Thea pointing out they were already married!), Thea with MySon and Oliver, and Thea thinking about Roy. I know Rene's toast was set up for the sudden but inevitable betrayal but I would have preferred it to have been given by Diggle. I loved how soft Oliver & Felicity were throughout ... and laughed at her "it's too late for you" about having Mama Smoak for an in-law. The cake, the dancing the Ivy town neighbors.

In an episode where after BS threw Thea against a wall right after mentioning she just came out of the hospital I'm definitely thinking no redemption arc, even with that bit with Lance. She was totally playing him. Because now he will hesitate next time they face each other again instead of shooting her. (Thea should smack him if he does that).

The whole who's betraying whom, no trust, invasion of privacy, etc. — I just thought the newbies had no case. I'm fully aware of my bias but Tinah has been lying from the beginning, Wild Dog admitted betraying Oliver and Curtis who was going on and on about invasion of privacy tracked Felicity just last season. If I'm supposed to see both sides during this episode, the writers did a lousy job of presenting why the noobs shouldn't be kicked out permanently. 

Oh and the shot of Team Bad Guys at the end was super, super lame.

Edited December 8, 2017 by SmallScreenDiva
add line about team baddie

[way2interested]

Just now, SmallScreenDiva said:

The whole who's betraying whom, no trust, invasion of privacy, etc. — I just thought the newbies had no case. I'm fully aware of my bias but Tinah has been lying from the beginning, Wild Dog admitted betraying Oliver and Curtis who was going on and on about invasion of privacy tracked Felicity just last season. If I'm supposed to see both sides during this episode, the writers did a lousy job of presenting why the noobs shouldn't be kicked out permanently. 

It was literally a case of a person going through their significant other's emails/texts and finding out they were cheating on them, and then the significant other's only response is "How could you look at my emails???"

On principle I get both sides, but yeah optics weren't the best. Although at least it was more just bad execution rather than laziness I suppose.

[SmallScreenDiva]

11 minutes ago, way2interested said:

On principle I get both sides, but yeah optics weren't the best. Although at least it was more just bad execution rather than laziness I suppose.

In a season where they were going to explore the issues of trust in a team, they started off with one of the noobs already lying about something. And then have same person be all "I can't believe you don't trust me." WTF? I say bad concept and bad execution. 

[leopardprint]

2 hours ago, way2interested said:

It was literally a case of a person going through their significant other's emails/texts and finding out they were cheating on them, and then the significant other's only response is "How could you look at my emails???"

On principle I get both sides, but yeah optics weren't the best. Although at least it was more just bad execution rather than laziness I suppose.

Yeah, they already knew one of the team was the mole so they had probable cause? I do think Oliver brushing aside Diggle's suggestion to confront them directly is supposed to show how "omg extreme betrayal" that was but it still wasn't setup well at all. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by leopardprint

[insomniadreams88]

4 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

In an episode where after BS threw Thea against a wall right after mentioning she just came out of the hospital I'm definitely thinking no redemption arc

Yeah, especially that part. I think if they really wanted to start setting up a redemption arc, they should have had BS knock out Thea in the quickest/least painful way possible. Considering they made it a point that Thea's still recovering - Lance even said it as they were walking down the hall, so BS should have heard it - it should have been no problem for BS. Instead, we got the throw into a wall/line about how she'd put her back in a coma.

(Maybe they should have still done this to get the audience wondering, at the very least, if a redemption arc was possible. They could have had BS go easy on Thea and then let Lance go in the same episode. It could have even still been part of Cayden's plan, to have BS showing these possible moments of "maybe she isn't all bad" to different members of the team, all part of his plan to split everyone up.) 

[leopardprint]

1 hour ago, ladylaw99 said:

There were some highlights for me.  The reception was cheesy but I NEED CHEESY in my life.  I admit I was smiling quite a bit through the reception.  I also laughed at Thea and William dancing, I thought it was a cute moment.  I also thought it was sweet that Felicity said she would wait for Oliver if he was put away.  Like the mention of Roy.  I miss Roy.

Slow-mo, soft-focus entrance aside, I really feel like they were too restrained with the cheese. The cheese should have been turned up to 11. All the cheese in France. 

I'm talking: 

• montage of Olicity's greatest hits set to Billy Joel
• red pen wedding favors
• Oliver telling Felicity about seeing her in the QC office
• Fern centerpieces/bouquet 
• Souffle dessert table

They really dropped the (cheese) ball here. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by leopardprint

[Primal Slayer]

29 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

In an episode where after BS threw Thea against a wall right after mentioning she just came out of the hospital I'm definitely thinking no redemption arc, even with that bit with Lance. She was totally playing him. Because now he will hesitate next time they face each other again instead of shooting her. (Thea should smack him if he does that).

In a series where Slade killed Moira and Malcolm killed thousands and tried to end the world, I feel like Siren throwing Thea against a wall is cookie cutter. If Siren was ever to get any kind of redemption or become an anti hero, I think theyd probably be able to get over that bit pretty easily like Oliver has with Slade/Malcolm and Thea briefly with Malcolm.

[tv echo]

The return of the Oliver voiceover intro that doesn't mention Diggle! The return of Spartan's symbol in the team graphics intro!

Loved the Olicity wedding reception, but after that, the episode went downhill...

Team OTA all the way! I thought I would hate only Rene after this episode, but I find that I now hate Dinah and Curtis more than Rene.

Yes, Rene betrayed Oliver and he should never be trusted again. But at least Rene knows he screwed up and feels some guilt about it. Incidentally, why does Rene still expect or even want to stay on the team? If Oliver is exposed and arrested, there will be no Team Arrow. Or does Rene expect Team Arrow to continue without Oliver, maybe with Diggle or perhaps him leading it? Btw, is part of his deal with Agent Watson that he can continue as Wild Dog? Because it certainly looks like he expects to keep vigilanting, even with his daughter back and Oliver gone.

I was so infuriated with Dinah because I had been warming up to her, but then she acted so self-righteous and hypocritical in this episode. Not once did Dinah apologize to the team or admit that she did anything wrong. Oh, boo hoo, OTA spied on you. It's not like you were lying to your team mates, sneaking around to meet up with the Vigilante, or protecting the guy who tried to kill Oliver and innocent people... oh wait, you did do all those things. So now Dinah doesn't believe in Oliver. Well, no one on OTA should believe in her any more.

Curtis would be the only one who had the right to feel hurt by OTA's lack of trust and surveillance, except for two things. One, as others have pointed out upthread, he himself has tracked Felicity without her knowledge or consent, by injecting nanites into her body (at least, Felicity didn't inject stuff into her team mates). And two, he just came across like a sulking, pouty child who's jealous about Oliver & Felicity's happiness. I mean, it was Curtis' choice to pick being Mr. Terrific over his marriage. Also, Oliver & Felicity took almost 6 years to get married. 

Some media reviews that I've read are frustrating me because they criticize Oliver's habitual distrust of others and ignore the fact that he had very real reasons for that distrust in this episode. I don't blame Oliver for not confronting the team. Someone betrayed him. For all he knew, the guilty party would've lied and then covered up for himself because he would now know that Oliver knew about the betrayal. Rene and Dinah broke trust with Oliver first. With so much at stake, Oliver was right to take extreme protective measures. Hey, at least he didn't shoot them with arrows.

As far as I'm concerned, the newbies can stay off of the team. However, most likely, with the group of villains to fight, we'll have to suffer through OTA being forced to make up with Team Newbies.

And Thea - I thought that she was acting kinda out of character in being so forgiving toward Rene, whose testimony could put her brother in prison for life. I expected her to be more protective of Oliver (like Moira) and against someone who would betray him. It's one thing to forgive a friend for lying to you, but it's another thing to forgive a friend for betraying you, knowing that this betrayal will send you to prison and leave your son without a father.

Also, last time I checked, Noah Kuttler is still on the run from the FBI. Yet he shows up at the wedding of the Mayor of Star City, who himself is under surveillance by the FBI.

To end on a positive note, here's another nice close-up of the wedding topper:

Edited December 8, 2017 by tv echo

[DeadZeus]

Bleh, HATE that Oliver should be able to take on multiple of these villains at once (some of them would have "street thug 1 and 2" in credits in S1.. But ofcourse he's gonna need the noobs to take them on somehow.
And ofc Oliver is going to have to be the one to apologise to them and earn THEIR trust back. Even though every viewer thinks Oliver is in the right. They Always write it so Oliver is WRONG! I'm sick of it.

Also what's the point of having fight scenes when wether or not the heroes lose or win... The badguy always gains something or losing is exactly what they planned! So rly what's the point? It would be almost more effective for the team to just stay home...

[tangerine95]

Finally got to watch it and I liked the episode.It wasn't the most exciting midseason finale but I'd take that over the character assassinations of last season ep 9.I'm glad they didn't force a cliffhanger for the sake of it tbh.

The reception was amazing,it's nice to see the characters having fun and just being friends.Olicity were so cute.I loved Oliver being nervous she wasn't there and then the looks they gave each other when Felicity walked in.Their first dance was everything I wanted and the song was perfect for them.They somehow manage to look more in love every episode,idk how.It was nice to see Donna,her scene with Oliver was so funny.I also liked that she called Noah back,I always felt her sending him away was hypocritical as well as making decisions for Felicity and made me like her way less.I only wish we got a Noah Felicity scene tho but I think we'll see him again this season when Cayden James starts going after Felicity more,at least I hope so.Curtis was a mess and so annoying.Not even his toast,I thought that was funny but because he's acting like the team is to blame for his divorce when he literally begged to be a part of it even when Oliver was against it and then chose it over his husband.

I was actually sympathetic to Rene for most of the episode because he did show regret and guilt but he screwed up at the end.When someone gives you such a clear chance it's unbelievably dumb to go and let them down again so I get why Oliver was done.

I loved Oliver this ep and how he dealt with this.I feel like he reacted a lot more strongly to this betrayal because he has a lot more to lose now and is looking forward to the future so the idea of jail freaked him out in a way it didn't in season 3 or even 5.I mean sure spying on his team mates isn't nice but like when you weight it against jail for life it's a clear choice.

Imo the newbies vs OTA makes sense because one is a team added a year ago unwillingly by Oliver and one is the team he built over years with people he chose himself and has the strongest bonds with.It's unrealistic to expect that group to merge well.I kinda loved how he didn't give a crap about all of them leaving when whenever Felicity or Digg even hint at that,he's basically falling apart lol

Also another reason I think the new team sucks and has issues is because they don't have actual friendships like the show bothered to build for ota when they were starting out as a team.The newbies bonded with each other but Dinah only bonded with Digg,barely with Oliver and we never see her in scenes with Felicity.Curtis bonded with Felicity but Digg and Oliver still look pretty annoyed with him to me.Rene seems like he mostly respects Oliver and Digg but kinda ignores Felicity.Unless they make an effort to make them all actually feel like friends while maintaining the established friendships as well,the team won't inspire much investment.Which is why I'm hoping they stay away forever and hate that it won't be about that.I'm holding out hope that at least one,preferably Curtis quits forever.

Edited December 8, 2017 by tangerine95

[Primal Slayer]

2 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Imo the newbies vs OTA makes sense because one is a team added a year ago unwillingly by Oliver and one is the team he built over years with people he chose himself and has the strongest bonds with.It's unrealistic to expect that group to merge well.I kinda loved how he didn't give a crap about all of them leaving when whenever Felicity or Digg even hint at that,he's basically falling apart lol

Didn't Oliver seek them out and not the other way around? Especially with Dinah.

[tangerine95]

2 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Didn't Oliver seek them out and not the other way around? Especially with Dinah.

He was kinda pushed into it by Felicity for Curtis and Rene,I don't think he wanted a team of strangers tbh even tho he got used to it and accepted them.Dinah was about granting Laurel her last wish for the team to have a BC,I doubt he would have went looking for her if not for that.I mean yeah that's on him because he added her but I think it all leads to Oliver having weaker bonds with all of them and a trust that's much easier to break like we saw in this episode.

[SmallScreenDiva]

47 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Didn't Oliver seek them out and not the other way around? Especially with Dinah.

Dinah, yes, because of the dying wish of somebody who apparently was perfectly fine putting another person in danger just so she can have a legacy. Also, because WB wants to sell action figures of women in black leather.

Curtis was just ... there. I guess technically he got invited the season before, after he found out the secret? I can't remember anymore if he got the handshake of welcome. Rene was "recruited" because he was already a pest out there in the streets who was impeding Oliver ... I think Oliver & Felicity figured to train him, along with Evelyn and Curtis so they'd be more useful and less of a nuisance. 

3 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

I wish Arrow just stuck with the Olicity theme song for Felicity's entrance. This almost pulled me out of the moment (thank God for Oliver & Felicity's heart eyes!). 

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think Curtis asked to join the team and asked Oliver to train him. He was there before the others. Instead Felicity convinced Oliver to reclute WD and the other two saying that they were out there playing vigilante anyway and it was safer for everyone if they formed one team. 

[Angel12d]

I mostly check out of her scenes tbh but did Dinah tell Vigilante who the GA was? I swear she mentioned Oliver's name. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Angel12d

[catrox14]

14 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Dinah was in Diggle's face for weeks because he was keeping secrets but if she keeps a secret that people confront her on, she is the hurt party.  Rene admits to testifying against Oliver in a plea deal to cover his ass and gets huffy when after Oliver gave him a second chance, he right away broke his trust.  And Curtis, Curtis has rewritten his own history to somehow blame the team for why Paul left him when it was Curtis choosing the team over Paul.  The team never forced you to join and now you are crying about people not trusting you because they spent ONE EVENING tracking them?  

The entitled attitude going on between the newbs amazes me.  Baffles me. 

If I didn't know better, I'd say Barry reset the timelines again because that would explain a lot of their asshattery.

Question: Did the crossover events come up during this episode? I haven't watched this episode in full yet due to it being preempted in my area for fire coverage.

6 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

 

I wish Arrow just stuck with the Olicity theme song for Felicity's entrance. This almost pulled me out of the moment (thank God for Oliver & Felicity's heart eyes!). 

Well that stinks. Why would they do that??

[tennisgurl]

I really have no idea what the writers were trying to say with Oliver and the newbies here. Oliver's trust issues are always an issue, and have been there since season 1, but we have clearly seen him working on it and the progress he`s made, and we`ve also seen that there are tons of times when he was totally right to have trust issues. People he knows do have a tendency to turn out to be evil, or just lie to him, right? I mean, just recently, his new lawyer friend turned out to be a serial killer, one of his new trainees was working with the serial killer, his best friend lied to him about a major injury, and he just killed an evil version of himself. I mean, is it paranoia when people actually ARE out to get you? 

And then you have the newbies, who are either hiding pretty major things (Rene, Dinah) or are complaining about their choices (Curtis), and they have the nerve to act like Oliver is the asshole? Are we really supposed to be on their side here? Yeah Oliver should have just been upfront, but he probably thought the guilty party would just lie, because...people lie to him a lot. Hell, the whole series started because Oliver's parents were secretly involved in some big supervillain plan, and he didn't find out about that until way too late. Things like this happen to him a lot! From where I`m standing, Oliver was actually pretty open to giving the newbies a second chance and being honest with them, and they were the ones who threw that chance out, and acted like a bunch of babies because they got caught in their own lies. Well, Curtis wasn't lying, but he did extra whining, so he gets counted as well. 

[Jediknight]

Vigilante is working with Cayden James and the other villains?  Please don't tell me they're going to do a ripoff of another Batman storyline.  Don't have him be like Red Hood, that worked perfectly, because we actually cared about Jason, he was killed in an incredibly brutal fashion, and he had a legit point.  Dinah's ex-partner has none of that.

[tv echo]

2 hours ago, Angel12d said:

I mostly check out of her scenes tbh but did Dinah tell Vigilante who the GA was? I swear she mentioned Oliver's name. 

Dinah clearly used Oliver's name when talking to Vince the Vigilante. However, it's possible that he already learned that Oliver was the GA from Cayden James. When the Vigilante first appeared on Arrow, he did not know, but since then he's found out or been told. (Or maybe the writers forgot that the Vigilante didn't know the GA's real identity before.)

By the way, why didn't Black Siren take Thea instead of Quentin after she incapacitated both of them? I would think that his sister would be better leverage against Oliver.

Edited December 8, 2017 by tv echo

[SmallScreenDiva]

10 minutes ago, tv echo said:

By the way, why didn't Black Siren take Thea instead of Quentin after she incapacitated both of them? I would think that his sister would be better leverage against Oliver.

I think there's the added bonus of trying to get into Lance's head.

[way2interested]

5 minutes ago, tv echo said:

By the way, why didn't Black Siren take Thea instead of Quentin after she incapacitated both of them? I would think that his sister would be better leverage against Oliver.

Because it would be even weirder if BS told that cake-car crash story to Thea I would bet.

[tv echo]

2 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Because it would be even weirder if BS told that cake-car crash story to Thea I would bet.

At first, I read your post quickly and thought you wrote "fake-car crash story" ... which could also turn out to be true, I suppose. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by tv echo

[SmallScreenDiva]

You guys weren't kidding when you mentioned the bad acting between Tinah and Vince. That was just bad, bad, bad altogether. On one hand, there's KC who can't/won't move her face and show an expression (except when BS is being weirdly sexual with Lance), on the other you have JH who overacts all the freakin' time. I still laugh when I remember her delivery of "Why are you laughing to Cisco" during the crossover. Yikes!

[DavidJSnyder]

They mentioned Evelyn enough times that I'm a little surprised she wasn't part of the evil superteam at the end.

[Morrigan2575]

11 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I think there's the added bonus of trying to get into Lance's head.

Yep. I'm convinced it was all a setup. Team Baddie vs Team Goodie?

Dinah - Vigilante

Lance - BS

Diggle - Dragon

Felicity - James

Oliver - Anatoly/James

Only one left is James other henchmen.

[tangerine95]

I seriously thought for a moment BS was about to kiss Lance when she leaned in to tell him to run.That was so weirdly shot and acted,I was creeped out lol

I feel like she's playing him because they seem to be doing the same thing with Dinah and Vigilante.I also think if that was supposed to be some kind of prep for a redemption than it's unbelievably lame.I mean okay her dad died,that's sad but how does that explain her enjoyment of killing people even when she doesn't have to?I don't think that sob story is even close to enough to make someone who is shown to be that cruel,seem redeemable.Like nice she can't kill one guy who looks like her dead father but she still didn't have an issue and enjoyed killing like 10 people since she showed up.So I hope they don't even try with that.

[bijoux]

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

Some media reviews that I've read are frustrating me because they criticize Oliver's habitual distrust of others and ignore the fact that he had very real reasons for that distrust in this episode. I don't blame Oliver for not confronting the team. Someone betrayed him. For all he knew, the guilty party would've lied and then covered up for himself because he would now know that Oliver knew about the betrayal. Rene and Dinah broke trust with Oliver first. With so much at stake, Oliver was right to take extreme protective measures. Hey, at least he didn't shoot them with arrows.

I didn't get that narrative in season 5 either when Oliver wasn't trusting with the recruits at once. And he was later proven to be right.

2 hours ago, Angel12d said:

I mostly check out of her scenes tbh but did Dinah tell Vigilante who the GA was? I swear she mentioned Oliver's name. 

I'm 99% sure she said Oliver in their final breathing session.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Did the crossover events come up during this episode? I haven't watched this episode in full yet due to it being preempted in my area for fire coverage.

Nothing aside from Oliver and Felicity getting married. Even the previously on only showed them and Dig, no Barry and Iris.

[Morrigan2575]

1 minute ago, bijoux said:

I'm 99% sure she said Oliver in their final breathing session.

LOL that's the perfect description

[bijoux]

I really appreciated how they made a point of including Quentin into Oliver's and Thea's lives in this episode. This feels like a retroactive validation of that line about him "really being there from them after Mom died". Which was ridiculous at the time. However, his present to Oliver was really sweet (I'm chosing to assume he has something else meaningful and touching for Sara) and him proclaiming to be stepping in for Oliver's parents was even sweeter. So was him taking Thea home. Speaking of, who took William home? Was it Donna? Is she going to spoil him rotten while Oliver and Felicity are fighting the baddies? I'm not sure I want to watch it, but I'd sure like to hear about it. Also, Jack Moore has been praised as being more relaxed in his scenes with EBR, but William shimmying with Thea was the best! If she's bringing that about, she really is the best aunt as Oliver and Felicity predicted.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I didn't get that narrative in season 5 either when Oliver wasn't trusting with the recruits at once. And he was later proven to be right.

I'm 99% sure she said Oliver in their final breathing session.

Nothing aside from Oliver and Felicity getting married. Even the previously on only showed them and Dig, no Barry and Iris.

Thank you!

[Hiveminder]

4 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I didn't get that narrative in season 5 either when Oliver wasn't trusting with the recruits at once. And he was later proven to be right.

It’s like the show is saying that any distrust at all from Oliver is a problem and down to his trust issues, but that’s so dumb. Sometimes you’re not supposed to trust people right away, or at all. Like when you are a crime fighting vigilante and don’t know if these other crime fighting vigilantes who you met five minutes ago from Adam, or when you learn that a member of your team has sold you out and you might spend the rest of your life in prison because of it. Oliver should be very, very careful who he trusts at all times, much less when he’s being charged with crimes he totally did. 

Someone upthread mentioned how Oliver was really feeling the betrayal this episode, and I think there was more than a hint of desperation in SA’s acting. Oliver has his son. Felicity is his wife. He thinks he’s just keeping the GA suit warm until Dig can take over. Thea just woke up. He seems to be doing pretty well as mayor. Quentin Lance just gave him a very touching gift. Things are going really well for Oliver, and all of the sudden he has more to lose than he ever has before. I would be desperate to hold onto to that happy life that is finally in my grasp if I was him, and I sure as hell would not look kindly on anyone who threatened it, no matter what their reason. 

Also, Curtis is a whiny, jealous, whining baby. I just feel like that needs to be pointed out a lot. How is it that Rene is the one who betrayed Oliver, yet he’s the newbie I am least annoyed by right now?

[Mary0360]

Vigilante and Black Siren are both being set up as villains who could flip to the side of redemption but with the element of are they genuine or are they part of Caydens overall plan to mess with Team Arrows head. My theory is one will genuinely flip and one will be a fake out just to mess with people. And since Vigilante is an established hero of sorts in the comics and in the universe (his mask appearing in the Legends Ep) I'm inclined to believe he will get the redemption arch while Black Siren will prove to be the straight up evil one. Oliver's easy acceptance of Tommy in the crossover not being his Tommy also felt like foreshadowing of Oliver being able to differentiate and accept Black Siren as straight evil. 

 

That being said I don't think either Vigilante or Black Siren if redeemed would end up being on the team. I think redemption would likely come with sacrifice either that being death, jail or in Sirens case leaving the Earth. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Mary0360

[tv echo]

 

(Legends-SuperFlarrow 423)

[Midnight Lullaby]

I feel the episode would have been stronger if the newbies had any ground to stand on when demanding to be trusted. Only when Curtis spoke I felt he was right, even if he is the one I like less out of the three of them. WD admitted he sold Oliver to the FBI (also smart guy that believes what they told him to get his testimony) and told Oliver he is the kind of guy that doesn’t follow orders in the field when he feels like it and Dinah started the season lying to them and is meeting in secret with Vigilante that tried to kill Oliver..I’d question Oliver if he trusted those two. 

I miss Roy who was willing to go to jail for Oliver. Now that was an emotional development for a character, not this mess.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[BkWurm1]

18 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Didn't Caydon tell Siren that Lance would die if the team didn't go through with the plan? That makes me think that she isn't faking it since that scene wouldn't make sense.

It could be as someone suggested, that James was stating it once in front of Lance and once in front of Oliver to play them, but I suppose it's possible Evil Laurel actually didn't want to kill Lance but setting that question aside, she did answer the question of if she'd been playing him before and she very clearly said no she didn't see her father when she looked at Lance at all.  So when she kidnapped him for the Island and people were claiming she did it so she could look out for him, we now for sure know she had no real feelings for Lance.  It's possible she the silly bakery story humanized him enough so she didn't kill him, but it doesn't have to mean she's actually on the road to redemption.  

17 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

I'm a newcomer to Arrow (just started watching last season), so I guess I have different influences, but I like the Arrow team and I'm sad they've split up. I don't think it'll be permanent, though - six members on Team Evil Machine Finch almost guarantees there has to be six members on Team Arrow.

For me, I felt like Team OTA had reason not to trust Team Noob, but they went about dealing with it the wrong way. Now Team Noob has reason not to trust Team Arrow - I've been there when you realize you're considered the B Team and can't ever join the A-Team, and it sucks.

Dig was right - they should have thrown everyone into the bunker and spilled the beans on the leak, and asked whoever it was to fess up without any demarcation between the old and the new, and generally have everybody yell at everybody until Rene lost his head and confessed. He wouldn't have been able to brazen it out.

On the other hand, maybe these events will help OTA realize they can't separate the Noobs out emotionally if they want a solid superhero team, and they'll finally get a cohesive unit where everyone is equal (except for Oliver being boss, of course).

 

It’s hard for me to say Oliver made the wrong call because once someone betrays you, you don’t expect anyone to actually confess and if you tipped your hand that you knew there was a betrayer, then you lose the chance of easily catching them in their behavior.  Nobody likes being put under the microscope but the newbs should understand why they were.  And I think the super short time period that they were under watch should be important.  It was less than a day. Basically, one evening before Dinah came in and then they did have that confrontation. 

They were wrong about the mole but what Dinah was doing was still a huge deal, not a kick off the team deal but you need to explain yourself and perhaps not be involved when the team is going after the Vigilante because she’s too emotionally compromised.  The team can’t trust her to put their goals above her emotional connection to the ex. 

And how is it that Curtis and Dinah managed to put their hurt feelings above the fact that their teammate was testifying against the leader of their team?  Why were they just fine with hanging with the dude that totally sold them all out in order to cover his own ass?  How in the world are they ok with what Rene did?  

15 hours ago, quarks said:

Bad things:

2. I applaud the idea of a Team Bad for season six, with one caveat: a good half of these Team Baddies are so dull that I had problems recognizing who half of them were. If we hadn't just seen Vigilante in this episode, I would not have known who he was - and this was after I said "Oh, hi, Chrysler from season one. We meet yet again." If I can recognize a car more easily than a villain, we have a problem.  Anatoly and Cayden James are fun, and Black Siren screams a lot, but this is not going to be enough. For this show to work, you need memorable baddies. Do something with Vigilante and Kirk Avecedo. 

3. Sorry, but after season 2, there is just no way that I can buy that Oliver would not have had Team Arrow, and specifically Curtis and Felicity and possibly even Cisco, completely sweep the Arrow Cave for bugs. Especially given that the Arrow Cave is basically an Evil Hangout at this point which anyone can walk into.  And sure, this could lead to a reveal that Oliver knew about the bugs all along and made sure that the team would split up right in front of the cameras, but even that just means that we're repeating a season 2 plot, so, auugh either way.

4. Not surprisingly, two days after I complained about Flash writing to reach a specific plot point instead of writing from character, along comes Arrow to show again just why this is a problem.  In this case, the goal was to ensure that Team Bad Guys would be able to watch Team New Arrows walk away from Original Team Arrows, and then have a moment to line up like Proper Evil Bad Guys.

To get there, Arrow had to find a reason for Team Arrow to split up - something that, like Barry handling a mysterious knife that came in a unmarked package despite knowing that the Thinker was after him - makes very little sense at this point. To get there, they had Rene betray the team.

With one major problem: this not only made very little sense in context, but is against most of what we've seen from Rene in the past two years. That is, that he doesn't trust cops or authority figures. So why, exactly, is he suddenly trusting the FBI - an authority group mostly consisting of federal cops that earlier this season he refused to visit alone - to fulfill their promises to him? Especially given that Team Arrow and allies have promised to help get his kid back?  These aren't just any allies, either - it's the mayor, a deputy mayor, a top notch hacker, and the guy married to the head of Argus.

So yeah, I'm not buying that Rene, after hearing this offer, would not have gone straight to Oliver and Diggle and told them what was going on. Dinah, maybe.  Rory, maybe, after thinking things over. Nyssa, though what the FBI would do with her is unclear, sure.  Rene? No.  

So to get that plot point - Team Bad Guys all in a row staring down at video footage of Team Arrow splitting up, Arrow not only had to make pretty much everyone on Team Arrow except Diggle look awful, but also, once again, had to force someone to act out of character - and in the process, squandering a lot of built up goodwill.  Not the first time Arrow has pulled this stunt, and I doubt it will be the last. 

 

 

7

#2  Can someone list the bad guy list?  I can only come up with Cayden James, BS, Anatoly, Dragon, and Vince the Vigilante.  Who is the sixth person?  

#3  My only theory is that they do electronic sweeps for bugs and the place comes up clean due too some trick James has employed.  It's not like where that camera is placed is in an obvious location. So I can imagine them not physically catching it, but they have to be doing electronic sweeps.  

 

#4  I agree that Rene doesn't trust cops but I also think he IS easily intimidated by authority.  Doing anything to get his daughter back freaked the hell out of him to the point where he wouldn't even go see her.  Yes, he also was convinced that he couldn't take care of her properly, but there's a huge difference iMO between not trying to regain custody and even going to see her.  

 He acts and talks tough but dude's kind of weasely.  He is the guy that goes behind someone's back to undermine them.  Even Diggle guessed as much.  And he's the one that looks after himself first, always.  So he may talk defiantly against the FBI but he caved because he wanted to protect himself.  They said they had proof that he was WD and that Oliver was the GA but if he testified, then they'd let him go.  Unless he's really dumb, he had to on some level realize that they wouldn't be offering him a deal unless they didn't have the proof they needed on Oliver.  So he straight up traded Oliver's life and happiness for his.  And given the timeline when they were all called into the FBI's office, he gave him up even when Oliver wasn't' the GA anymore.  

He's not a team player.  That's something they've established again and again.  He goes his own way and is proud of it.  Defiant even.  And that's just as much why he gave Oliver up to the FBI as it would be why he'd not like the FBI IMO.  So I do think it's in his character to cut that deal.  He'd rather someone else take care of his problems than face them himself.  

Even putting on the hockey mask was about avoiding the hard work of getting himself together so he could bring his daughter home.  He didn't want to deal with it so he didn't   He just beat people up, making himself feel better.  Then the people around him pushed for him to deal with his issues and finally he decided he wanted his daughter back but now when another big roadblock comes up, he's not willing to do the hard work.  Not willing to trust those around him.  Not willing to hear them out or see if there was another way. No, he just folded and took the sure thing.  So what if that meant a complete betrayal of the everyone that helped him put his life back together, the very one that saw to it he had a second chance with his kid.  

He has no remorse for his choice.  He's still convinced it was the best idea.  That why should they both go down if he could just turn on Oliver to save himself.  He doesn't understand loyalty or sacrifice.  He comes back to the team and is instantly defensive and mad that he's no longer has their full trust.  And I swear that Dinah and Curtis basically quit out of their own individual hang ups (Dinah conflicted over Vince and Curtis blaming the team for his mistakes with Paul) and loyalty to Rene, something he hasn't earned.  And in the newbs basically trusting the dude that actually was a betrayer of the rest of the team, I question their loyalty and judgment so badly that I really am going to be hard-pressed to ever forgive let alone trust any of them.  

I'm rambling a bit.  I just meant to say that I think Rene looking out for number 1 trumps whatever distrust he has with the FBI. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by BkWurm1

[apinknightmare]

13 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

WD admitted he sold Oliver to the FBI (also smart guy that believes what they told him to get his testimony)

I'm a little confused about this situation - when WD and his daughter showed up at his apartment at the end, she didn't have any suitcases with her, so I thought maybe it was just a visitation thing. But then Rene mentioned the sunflowers and wanting her to feel like this was home (which could just be because she's going to come back and live with him again at some point), but then she asked if she was going to have to leave again, which indicates that she's back with Rene permanently? 

He hasn't testified yet - did Watson just give him his kid back before he did the thing he was supposed to do to get her?