S06.E09: Irreconcilable Differences

[Jacks-Son]

14 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Honestly I think season 1-early season 2 Oliver would have reacted way worse than this. He has become more understanding and less angry in general with the years. Rene snitching isn’t this little thing..he was planning to send Oliver to jail for life to save his own ass and it’s not like he told the team he changed his mind, he realized he can’t sell Oliver out. He is still going to do it. So what was Oliver supposed to do? Accept his apology and hug him? That guy is going to ruin his life. Overacting would have been locking him in the cage in the bunker to stop him from testifying but this isn’t HTGAWM.

Also the whole team should realize that this means troubles for everyone. Oliver might be the target now but once you cut the head you move to the body, so they are next. And this includes Rene if after his testimony he thinks he can go back to be WD.

So, what does expelling Rene accomplish. Rene has already sold him out. The horse is already proverbially out of the barn. The best thing Oliver could have done is work with the team, come up with a possible plan to blow up the FBI's case.

[tangerine95]

I don't think Oliver would have sold anyone out like that even for William.At least for sure not so easily and without trying every other way.even in all the myson stuff in the season 5 finale,Oliver couldn't choose William over everyone else and tried to save both by wounding Chase.

I thought he reacted really well,idk what he was supposed to do.I don't think he should have confronted them when he knew that one had already betrayed them,how was he supposed to believe they won't lie or something.I'm surprised that he was willing to forgive that fast but I have no idea why Rene suddenly forgot all his guilt as soon as Oliver forgave him and turned into a bratty teen basically.Oliver shouldn't have to be on the team with people he doesn't trust imo.

Edited December 14, 2017 by tangerine95

[LeighAn]

Lets not forget this isn't the first time Rene betrayed the team or Oliver. He also gave up Oliver to Church last season.

 

Oliver was actively trying to help Rene get custody for his daughter, only for Rene to betray Oliver to protect himself and his relationship with his daughter. Rene gave a speech talking about how much Oliver deserves a life of happiness with his wife while knowingly giving him up to the FBI and putting Oliver in a position to lose his life with his wife and his chance at happiness.

 

Oliver gave Rene an opportunity to get past that without much contrition or apology from Rene and then Rene again knowingly made the choice to ignore Olivers instructions and move out of a position where he was suppose to have his back leaving Oliver open to attack. And then again had no apology or contrition to Oliver and blamed Oliver for his own choices like it was Olivers problem. 

 

And some still want to blame Oliver? 

[Midnight Lullaby]

Just now, Jacks-Son said:

So, what does expelling Rene accomplish. Rene has already sold him out. The horse is already proverbially out of the barn. The best thing Oliver could have done is work with the team, come up with a possible plan to blow up the FBI's case.

He expelled him because he betrayed the team. Would you trust someone who betrayed you to have your back in a life or death situation? And he called the whole team back for the mission despite that. Rene agreed to leave their problems aside for the mission then, because he was pissed Oliver didn’t trust him five minutes after finding out he sold him to the FBiI, he said screw it and decided to do as he wanted, being reckless when Oliver and Lance’s lives were at stake. At that point he expelled him because he is untrustworthy and proved it in every way he could. I guess Oliver decided he at least would like to be alive for his trial at this point.

[greekmom]

On 12/10/2017 at 3:05 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

GOOD RIDDANCE to Bad Rubbish, I say. I never thought Oliver needed the noobs to begin with. He was doing fine without them.

So Rene agrees to betray Oliver because Watson promised him he’d get his daughter back? Something that Oliver and Quentin managed to make possible without threats, but which he screwed up on purpose because he didn’t feel like fighting for her? Oh WAAAAIT. He was promised immunity for being a vigilante himself. So of COURSE he couldn’t let Oliver know he was going to testify against him.

 

That's the one thing I don't get. Why didn't Rene go to Oliver when the FBI approached him.  I am sure Oliver would have thought of something to help him.

Giving the FBI Oliver's superhero alias and then fighting along side him like nothing is going on is a biggie in the betrayal and a major breach of code.

I don't see how Ollie was even half ok with it.

[SmallScreenDiva]

18 hours ago, Jacks-Son said:

I know he was embarrassed by the FBI arrest in front of everyone, including "Buddy"/"Myson" and that was painful, but I think he took it out on the team.

There was no indication in this episode at all, not in script or even in subtext, that this was the reason Oliver was angry at the team, so I'm not sure where this is coming from. In fact the episode was rather explicit that it was because of broken trust, not some hurt over the arrest. Rene broke his trust. Period. Oliver, knowing what it is like to be a parent and making tough choices, understood and later gave Rene another chance. Rene blew it by acting on his own, endangering Oliver, who was looking for his backup. I'm sorry, but I thought this was actually the best the show had written Oliver in quite awhile in terms of his trust issues (and the writers have failed on that on several occasions).

As for the Olicity wedding, I have a feeling that on any other show, with any other couple, this wouldn't have been such a big deal. But because this Oliver & Felicity, everything is getting blown out of proportions to make them out to be bad guys. Oh well, blame Berlanti who wanted a double wedding and wanted that second one to be a total surprise. Blame the writers — although I'm not sure what else they can do with the parameters they were given. Having the first ceremony finish and then having the second one would have been rather anti-climactic. And blame the Flash writers, for writing their characters in the next episode to be petty little shits instead of being happy they all survived (except for poor Professor Stein, of course) and being thankful instead of bitching over an espresso machine.

[Jacks-Son]

14 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

18 hours ago, Jacks-Son said:

I know he was embarrassed by the FBI arrest in front of everyone, including "Buddy"/"Myson" and that was painful, but I think he took it out on the team.

There was no indication in this episode at all, not in script or even in subtext, that this was the reason Oliver was angry at the team, so I'm not sure where this is coming from. In fact the episode was rather explicit that it was because of broken trust, not some hurt over the arrest.

It's called an opinion. To me, Oliver seemed butt-hurt from the beginning. He had spoken with gritted teeth throughout the whole affair. He jumped on Dinah because she was communicating with the Vigilante and didn't even ask her to explain. We saw the interaction she had with the Vigilante; at no time did she want to even converse with him and asked him to stop stalking her. Oliver didn't even give her a chance to explain. During the whole reveal in the Arrow lair, when Rene admitted that he was the one to turn Oliver's alias over to the FBI, at no point did Oliver even apologize to Dinah. For me, this whole episode left a sour taste in my mouth. I think the whole thing was poorly written and was just done to shake things up drama wise. Rene's 2nd betrayal was just because he was anxious to save Lance. It wasn't done to simply disobey Oliver's orders. Rene and Curtis were on the scene and decided to follow the Black Siren and save Lance. Yes, Laurel had decided to let Lance go, but that doesn't take away from the fact that Rene and Curtis thought they were doing the right thing.

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

It's called an opinion. To me, Oliver seemed butt-hurt from the beginning. He had spoken with gritted teeth throughout the whole affair.

Yes, generally people get angry when someone they trust rats them out to the FBI.

[SmallScreenDiva]

9 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

I think the whole thing was poorly written and was just done to shake things up drama wise.

This I definitely agree with, it was poorly written. I thought the episode did a great job presenting Oliver's reasons, BUT gave the noobies no leg to stand on at all all the while asking the audience to see their point. I guess it worked for some viewers, like you, it just didn't with me. 

9 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

t's called an opinion. To me, Oliver seemed butt-hurt from the beginning. He had spoken with gritted teeth throughout the whole affair.

And everyone is entitled to one, of course! As for Oliver being butt-hurt, well, I would guess getting snitched on, having your freedom in danger while you're trying to start a new life with your new wife will get most people a little tense, gritted teeth and all. 

Edited December 14, 2017 by SmallScreenDiva

[EmilyBettFan]

Dinah wasn't going to explain anything regarding Vince. She said it was none of their business. Which is completely stupid since he tried to kill Oliver and others many times.

[insomniadreams88]

9 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

Rene's 2nd betrayal was just because he was anxious to save Lance. It wasn't done to simply disobey Oliver's orders. Rene and Curtis were on the scene and decided to follow the Black Siren and save Lance. Yes, Laurel had decided to let Lance go, but that doesn't take away from the fact that Rene and Curtis thought they were doing the right thing.

My problem was with their attitudes about waiting, Curtis' comment to Felicity about tracking Lance (it really wasn't the time for hurt feelings to be brought up) and them turning off their comms. It's the last one that bothers me the most. They really shouldn't have turned off their comms. What if something had gone very, very wrong?

[SmallScreenDiva]

18 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

My problem was with their attitudes about waiting, Curtis' comment to Felicity about tracking Lance (it really wasn't the time for hurt feelings to be brought up) and them turning off their comms. It's the last one that bothers me the most. They really shouldn't have turned off their comms. What if something had gone very, very wrong?

OMG, yes, totally this. Just because Curtis was feeling "bugged" that his privacy was invaded. Never mind that he did the same thing to Felicity last season.

[Jacks-Son]

19 minutes ago, EmilyBettFan said:

Dinah wasn't going to explain anything regarding Vince. She said it was none of their business. Which is completely stupid since he tried to kill Oliver and others many times.

I think at this point, Dinah was pissed that Oliver accused her of betraying his trust and ratting him out.  As I said, I think Oliver took the wrong approach to the whole thing. Diggle had it right; let's discuss this with cooler heads and talk. Instead, Oliver just barked and accused. In LoT and The Flash, the team provides input and everybody listens to everybody else. On Arrow, Oliver barks orders and gives commands and expects everyone to follow him like he is infallible. The only ones who call him out is the OTA. (And perhaps Thea)

[insomniadreams88]

Just now, Jacks-Son said:

Diggle had it right; let's discuss this with cooler heads and talk.

You're assuming that the newbies wouldn't have still been offended that they were being suspected and Felicity and Diggle weren't. Remember, Dinah and Curtis were bothered once they realized it was just the newbies who were tracked. The team split had to happen one way or another because that's the storyline the writers want right now. We probably would have gotten the same argument even if Oliver had brought the newbies in and confronted them immediately simply because he only suspected them and not his wife and brother. 

[lemotomato]

40 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

Rene's 2nd betrayal was just because he was anxious to save Lance. It wasn't done to simply disobey Oliver's orders.

Actually, Rene stated his reason for disobeying orders-- "I don't want to sit around and do nothing just because Oliver doesn't trust me". So yeah, he betrayed Oliver's trust a second time because he suddenly decided Oliver still didn't trust him, even after being given a second chance. 

[Jacks-Son]

1 minute ago, lemotomato said:

Actually, Rene stated his reason for disobeying orders-- "I don't want to sit around and do nothing just because Oliver doesn't trust me". So yeah, he betrayed Oliver's trust a second time because he suddenly decided Oliver still didn't trust him, even after being given a second chance. 

If that is what he said, it still doesn't mean that he did it simply because Oliver didn't trust him. He didn't want to wait around and try to help Lance, DESPITE Oliver not trusting him.

[JJ928]

51 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

He jumped on Dinah because she was communicating with the Vigilante and didn't even ask her to explain. We saw the interaction she had with the Vigilante; at no time did she want to even converse with him and asked him to stop stalking her. 

Except she could have offered an explanation. This is the same person that badgered Diggle until he told her the truth and then acted like he was a shit for lying. Yeah, she kept his secret, but then she turned around and did exactly was she was mad a Diggle for. Now if DD would've been clean, then she would have a leg to stand on but she doesn't. Also, in the first scene with Vigilante, he kept referring to the Green Arrow and she outright said Oliver. Now maybe I missed the part where he told her he knew Oliver was GA (I know he's working w/Cayden and knows but she doesn't know that), but even then, she should have protected Oliver's secret. Instead, she's out here in the open talking about Oliver, who is under investigation, being GA.

Quote

For me, this whole episode left a sour taste in my mouth. I think the whole thing was poorly written and was just done to shake things up drama wise. Rene's 2nd betrayal was just because he was anxious to save Lance. It wasn't done to simply disobey Oliver's orders. Rene and Curtis were on the scene and decided to follow the Black Siren and save Lance. Yes, Laurel had decided to let Lance go, but that doesn't take away from the fact that Rene and Curtis thought they were doing the right thing.

Well Arrow is not known for good nuance writing. The problem with Rene is he has been established as someone who is petty and thinks he knows best. He betrayed Oliver for his kid, which I would normally understand, except he had no interest in her until Lance pushed him to last season. Don't forget Oliver offering to help him get her back this season. This guy just rolled over on the only friends he has. As it is, he gave up Oliver when Church was torturing him last year. He has always been a weak link. He's unreliable, they should have never let him join. The only thing that has been consistent with Rene is that he's a brat. He went to Oliver to whine about Digg, he gave up Oliver to Church, gave up Oliver to the FBI (something that will trickle down to Diggle, Felicity, Curtis, and DD), only cared about his kid after Lance convinced him to. I usually roll my eyes at Oliver, but imo he's not wrong here.

Edited December 14, 2017 by JJ928

[lemotomato]

5 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

If that is what he said, it still doesn't mean that he did it simply because Oliver didn't trust him. He didn't want to wait around and try to help Lance, DESPITE Oliver not trusting him.

I'll go with what he said aloud in the episode instead of making up headcanons to defend his actions, thanks. Especially since he was unrepentant about it after the mission and even made a point about how defying orders was his thing. He's not a team player. Oliver doesn't want someone like that on his team, and he absolutely has that right. It's not a democracy.

Edited December 14, 2017 by lemotomato

[insomniadreams88]

1 minute ago, lemotomato said:

Especially since he was unrepentant about it after the mission and even made a point about how defying orders was his thing. 

Yeah, I feel like Rene really didn't help himself, both in the field and after back in the bunker. If you've just broken a guy's trust and you're going to be the one who puts him in jail for the rest of his life, but the guy still gives you a second chance and brings you back into the field with him, don't go against his orders the next minute and don't remind him that you've done it before/will probably do it again. 

[lemotomato]

2 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Yeah, I feel like Rene really didn't help himself, both in the field and after back in the bunker. If you've just broken a guy's trust and you're going to be the one who puts him in jail for the rest of his life, but the guy still gives you a second chance and brings you back into the field with him, don't go against his orders the next minute and don't remind him that you've done it before/will probably do it again. 

I actually started to feel sympathetic to Rene when he explained his initial betrayal to Oliver and owned up to how it was a shitty thing to do during his lunch with Curtis and Dinah. But when he threw that sudden tantrum about Oliver not trusting him in the the middle of the mission, after Oliver forgave him and let him back on the team, I was done with him. Good riddance to him and the newbies.

[Jacks-Son]

24 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

  25 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Actually, Rene stated his reason for disobeying orders-- "I don't want to sit around and do nothing just because Oliver doesn't trust me". So yeah, he betrayed Oliver's trust a second time because he suddenly decided Oliver still didn't trust him, even after being given a second chance. 

This is what you said, and to me, that doesn't translate into, "So yeah, he betrayed Oliver's trust a second time because he suddenly decided Oliver still didn't trust him".  He knew that Oliver still didn't trust him, but Oliver needed the entire team in order to help Lance.

[tangerine95]

18 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I actually started to feel sympathetic to Rene when he explained his initial betrayal to Oliver and owned up to how it was a shitty thing to do during his lunch with Curtis and Dinah. But when he threw that sudden tantrum about Oliver not trusting him in the the middle of the mission, after Oliver forgave him and let him back on the team, I was done with him. Good riddance to him and the newbies.

Yeah same,I thought Rene was weirdly the most sympathetic of the newbies in all this up to that point where he just went his own way for no real reason other than it's his thing to disobey orders.It was really weird,it's not like Oliver said let Lance die or the newbies actually had some plan to save him that succeeded,they seemingly just got pissed because they were being told what to do by OTA.

Edited December 14, 2017 by tangerine95

[Midnight Lullaby]

All the newbies said the problem was that Oliver doesn’t trust them and that was the reason they were leaving. The whole episode was about that, they flat out said it, all of them, and left.

[Jacks-Son]

3 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

All the newbies said the problem was that Oliver doesn’t trust them and that was the reason they were leaving. The whole episode was about that, they flat out said it, all of them, and left.

No contest. That WAS the reason they left. I don't disagree with that fact. I just think that 1) TPTB, for some reason, wanted to devise this faux-drama for some stupid plot. 2) Oliver has extremely strong trust issues. The newbies, Diggle, Felicity, Thea, Lance, and even Rag-Boy had problems with Oliver's lack of trust. He didn't even trust Kara Danvers (Supergirl) during last year's crossover event, even though Barry specifically told Oliver that he (Barry) trusted her. It's been the one bane that Oliver hasn't shaken.

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, Jacks-Son said:

Rene's 2nd betrayal was just because he was anxious to save Lance. It wasn't done to simply disobey Oliver's orders. Rene and Curtis were on the scene and decided to follow the Black Siren and save Lance. Yes, Laurel had decided to let Lance go, but that doesn't take away from the fact that Rene and Curtis thought they were doing the right thing.

 

 

31 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Yeah same,I thought Rene was weirdly the most sympathetic of the newbies in all this up to that point where he just went his own way for no real reason other than it's his thing to disobey orders.It was really weird,it's not like Oliver said let Lance die or the newbies actually had some plan to save him that succeeded,they seemingly just got pissed because they were being told what to do by OTA.

I think it's notable that even after disobeying Oliver's orders and leaving him open to attack which happened and he only got out of the situation because he's that good, that Curtis and Rene did nothing that resulted in the rescue of Lance.  Had BS followed her orders, Lance would have been dead before Curtis and Rene showed up.  She didn't follow orders so Quentin was still alive for them to follow and then she once again had the time and opportunity to kill Lance but instead let him go for whatever reason.  Rene and Curtis disobeyed orders and all it accomplished was putting Oliver in danger. Had they actually been where they were supposed to have been, maybe they could have captured Cayden James and the whole affair would have been done, but instead, he escaped while Oliver was overwhelmed by his minions and with NO BACKUP.  And Quentin's fate still ended up being only in BS's hands.  Nothing Rene did changed anything but put Oliver in danger.  And that's why he can't be trusted.  He thinks he knows better but yeah, he remains wrong.  

5 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

No contest. That WAS the reason they left. I don't disagree with that fact. I just think that 1) TPTB, for some reason, wanted to devise this faux-drama for some stupid plot. 2) Oliver has extremely strong trust issues. The newbies, Diggle, Felicity, Thea, Lance, and even Rag-Boy had problems with Oliver's lack of trust. He didn't even trust Kara Danvers (Supergirl) during last year's crossover event, even though Barry specifically told Oliver that he (Barry) trusted her. It's been the one bane that Oliver hasn't shaken.

Oliver has trust issues because he's had betrayal issues.  Again and again those that he's trusted have betrayed him.  Which is kind of an extreme form of payback since in his playboy days, he was the one that was constantly doing the betraying but since the island, he's had very few that he could trust implicitly.  He's wary because he's learned he HAS to be wary. 

And he did give the newbs his trust when he told them his secret identity.  And then Evelyn betrayed him and he STILL kept trusting the newbs and now ANOTHER one betrayed him.  Oliver has his issues but this time he's being overly generous and forgiving.  In season one would Rene even still be alive? 

[Midnight Lullaby]

15 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

No contest. That WAS the reason they left. I don't disagree with that fact. I just think that 1) TPTB, for some reason, wanted to devise this faux-drama for some stupid plot. 2) Oliver has extremely strong trust issues. The newbies, Diggle, Felicity, Thea, Lance, and even Rag-Boy had problems with Oliver's lack of trust. He didn't even trust Kara Danvers (Supergirl) during last year's crossover event, even though Barry specifically told Oliver that he (Barry) trusted her. It's been the one bane that Oliver hasn't shaken.

1) I don’t disagree with that but the character they threw under the bus for drama this time isn’t Oliver, it’s Rene. They wrote him as kinda dumb for believing the FBI when obviously if they need his testimony they can’t convict Oliver anyway, weak-willed because he simply agreed to sell his team mate out without even looking for another solution and bratty because he couldn’t even put his issues aside for a mission.

Oliver has trust issues, no doubt about that, but for good reasons. He was betrayed by so many people, family and close friends included. And trust should be earned. Keeping secrets, meeting with killers and talking to the FBI are legitimate reasons to mistrust someone. If the informations were wrong and it was someone outside the team that sold Oliver out and Dinah wasn’t meeting with Vigilante then Oliver would have been wrong, but he was proved right to doubt them.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[apinknightmare]

16 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

No contest. That WAS the reason they left. I don't disagree with that fact. I just think that 1) TPTB, for some reason, wanted to devise this faux-drama for some stupid plot. 2) Oliver has extremely strong trust issues. The newbies, Diggle, Felicity, Thea, Lance, and even Rag-Boy had problems with Oliver's lack of trust. He didn't even trust Kara Danvers (Supergirl) during last year's crossover event, even though Barry specifically told Oliver that he (Barry) trusted her. It's been the one bane that Oliver hasn't shaken.

Oliver has reasons to not trust Rene and Dinah - Rene sold him out twice (once to Church, and once to the FBI lady, then he went his own way out in the field in the middle of a mission when Oliver was giving him a third chance). Dinah kept the fact that she knew and was meeting with a guy who tried to kill Oliver a couple of times last year. 

It's not like just overheard these people saying mean things about him behind his back.

[BunsenBurner]

As I’ve said before it’s strange that Rene and Curtis left to find Lance and was all, we left to save Lance but Oliver got there first. Rene even repeats that once they returned to the lair. It really makes so sense. 

[Jacks-Son]

I don't know if this question has been answered further up the thread or in a different thread, but what's the status of Oliver and Nyssa's marriage? Did they get divorced or was the marriage annulled?

[SmallScreenDiva]

4 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

I don't know if this question has been answered further up the thread or in a different thread, but what's the status of Oliver and Nyssa's marriage? Did they get divorced or was the marriage annulled?

It was never legal because the League of Assassins, no matter how it styles itself, is not a sovereign state. So no need for annulment or divorce. 

And if Arrow verse writers want to get away from the idea they are misogynistic/sexist jerks, they will never bring it up again. Given the root of it being a madman forcing his lesbian daughter to marry a straight man.

Edited December 14, 2017 by SmallScreenDiva

[Midnight Lullaby]

Just now, SmallScreenDiva said:

It was never legal because the League of Assassins, no matter how it styles itself, is not a sovereign state. So no need for annulment or divorce. 

And also because you can’t force two people to get married. With no consent there’s no legal marriage.

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

I don't know if this question has been answered further up the thread or in a different thread, but what's the status of Oliver and Nyssa's marriage? Did they get divorced or was the marriage annulled?

No matter how MG has been trolling the fandom in recent years, immediately after it happened in season three he agreed that the marriage was not looked on by countries or states as legal.  It was only legal to those  who followed the LoA's laws and technically, even that was disbanded by Nyssa so it's a moot point no matter what.  

[Jacks-Son]

Hmm, Nyssa must have thought it was because she always referred to Oliver as "Husband".

[SmallScreenDiva]

Just now, Jacks-Son said:

Hmm, Nyssa must have thought it was because she always referred to Oliver as "Husband".

I think that was merely trolling ... by both the writers and Nyssa. 

[insomniadreams88]

4 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

I don't know if this question has been answered further up the thread or in a different thread, but what's the status of Oliver and Nyssa's marriage? Did they get divorced or was the marriage annulled?

Well, considering I don't think that the League of Assassins has marriage licenses... 

No, seriously, it's not real at all and the best thing the show can do - for both Oliver and Nyssa, but Nyssa especially, considering how her father treated her - is stop bringing it up because the "husband" comments are not funny. 

[LeighAn]

1 minute ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

It was never legal because the League of Assassins, no matter how it styles itself, is not a sovereign state. So no need for annulment or divorce. 

It's not even really a marriage when Oliver and Nyssa don't even consider each other in the romantic or married sense

[SmallScreenDiva]

Taking additional response to Relationships Thread ...

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think the husband comments exist because of the writers’ cringeworthy sense of humor primary but from Nyssa’s POV I took them as if she thought she was married for real given that season 2 to 3 changed her from kickass assassin that thought poorly of men to pawn in her father’s hands.

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I think the husband comments exist because of the writers’ cringeworthy sense of humor primary but from Nyssa’s POV I took them as if she thought she was married for real given that season 2 to 3 changed her from kickass assassin that thought poorly of men to pawn in her father’s hands.

Taken to the relationship thread.

[catrox14]

54 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

I don't know if this question has been answered further up the thread or in a different thread, but what's the status of Oliver and Nyssa's marriage? Did they get divorced or was the marriage annulled?

They never applied for a marriage license in Star City, so that's not a factor at all. Pretty sure it's not a legal marriage in Star City or any other place on Earth other than League of Assassins-Land.  I can't imagine Nyssa coming after Oliver for that because that would THE single stupidest plot line this show will have ever done. It's a moo point. *

*Friends reference.

51 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

Hmm, Nyssa must have thought it was because she always referred to Oliver as "Husband".

That was trolling or her joking. It's not a factor

[EmilyBettFan]

7 hours ago, Jacks-Son said:

I think at this point, Dinah was pissed that Oliver accused her of betraying his trust and ratting him out.  As I said, I think Oliver took the wrong approach to the whole thing. Diggle had it right; let's discuss this with cooler heads and talk. Instead, Oliver just barked and accused. In LoT and The Flash, the team provides input and everybody listens to everybody else. On Arrow, Oliver barks orders and gives commands and expects everyone to follow him like he is infallible. The only ones who call him out is the OTA. (And perhaps Thea)

Well you can't fault Oliver considering he's right in this situation. Not only is Dinah hiding secrets, both Rene and Curtis are disobeying the leader of the team.

6 hours ago, Jacks-Son said:

This is what you said, and to me, that doesn't translate into, "So yeah, he betrayed Oliver's trust a second time because he suddenly decided Oliver still didn't trust him".  He knew that Oliver still didn't trust him, but Oliver needed the entire team in order to help Lance.

Actually Oliver proved in that mission that he really didn't need the newbies. Only Dinah helped him take down some goons. Oliver practically did the entire mission himself. 

[AudienceofOne]

Oliver quits being Arrow, must be Tuesday. Arrow team disbands, must be Wednesday I guess.

I actually think this is the superior show among the four but they need to find some new beats to hit.

Props to the writers btw, for devoting such a lot of time to the not-wedding and to the show's relationships. Oliver and Lance are really my favourite. These two have such a complicated history but constantly acknowledge it while moving pass it.

[tennisgurl]

13 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

And blame the Flash writers, for writing their characters in the next episode to be petty little shits instead of being happy they all survived (except for poor Professor Stein, of course) and being thankful instead of bitching over an espresso machine.

Yeah, no kidding. As weird and full of danger as the characters lives generally are, you would think they would be more happy that only one person died (as tragic and heartbreaking as that was) and that the bad guys were defeated. I mean, if Iris and Barry found Felicity a bit annoying, thats fine I guess (although we know its the writers being annoying, not the characters) but I would think they would be more like "Thank God we are actually ALIVE to count these gifts we got, and that everyone who gave them to us arent all kinds of dead now!" or something. Get some perspective! Or, you know, be bitter at the Nazis who attacked the wedding in the first place. But whatever, I guess Felicity is the real villain here. And what the hell is wrong with an espresso machine anyway? Iris and Felicity practically live off of coffee, and that shits expensive. But, again, Felicity is the real villain. 

Not that I`m bitter...

Edited December 15, 2017 by tennisgurl

[BkWurm1]

8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

And what the hell is wrong with an espresso machine anyway? Iris and Felicity practically live off of coffee, and that shits expensive. But, again, Felicity is the real villain. 

I will hold Iris and Barry accountable for being weirdly bitter way after the fact about the wedding (because in the actual moment they were clearly perfectly happy with going along with the double wedding once they heard her out) but I guess I'm willing to cut them slack on returning gifts. By the time they got to Oliver and Felicity's gift, they'd gotten 11 toasters.  So I assumed they not wanting the espresso machine must have meant either they already had an espresso machine or wanted a particular kind, either of which would have been taken into account on the gift registry. 

So after 11 toasters, I get why another rogue gift could elicit some minor frustration with people not taking advantage of the parameters they took the time to outline for gifts, no one really wants to give an unwanted gift so why not take advantage of a list of sure things?  BUT I also think there is a time for going off-list if you feel you've found or thought of something special so I'd never be anal about such a thing and I really can't defend how Iris vented her frustration by tying the unexpected gift back to the unexpected ceremony. 

 Still, snippy commentary aside, I'm ok with Iris returning the espresso machine.   I mean, maybe because of working at Jitters the home brew stuff can't measure up or maybe all the freebees burnt her out on expresso or what I said before about them already having one or wanting a different kind.  It's just an appliance so I can't take offense if they returned it. Now if it had been something more personalized or unique, I'd be annoyed.  But I bet that no matter how many toasters O/F got gifted with, that they kept their frustrations focused on what actually was worth being upset about.  

Just a purely random speculative question, what would one give the newlywed Mayor and former CEO as a wedding gift?   Lance gave Oliver a watch that his father owned.  I wonder if that means he also gave them a more generic toaster or would he have given Felicity an individual gift as well.  And I wonder what Diggle and Lyla would have given them.  Or what Rene, Curtis and Dinah bought (most likely only Curtis bought something and then Dinah and Rene weaseled their names on the card, though guilt could have netted something fabulous from Rene I suppose.)

Edited December 15, 2017 by BkWurm1

[SmallScreenDiva]

3 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

And I wonder what Diggle and Lyla would have given them. 

Diggle had a gift with him when he came in, though I can't remember him ever handing it to Oliver. I did wonder if that was his and Lyla's gift to Oliver & Felicity or if it was just something for Oliver. If it was the wedding gift, then what would fit in the small box that would be for a couple? Season tickets to the Starling City Rockets? Certificate to couple cooking classes? ;)

[way2interested]

Just now, SmallScreenDiva said:

If it was the wedding gift, then what would fit in the small box that would be for a couple? Season tickets to the Starling City Rockets? Certificate to couple cooking classes? ;)

Last minute tickets to Aruba or Bali, that's why Felicity was so mad for missing her honeymoon that she slapped Curtis.

[Velocity23]

On 14. 12. 2017 at 8:03 PM, Jacks-Son said:

It's called an opinion. To me, Oliver seemed butt-hurt from the beginning. He had spoken with gritted teeth throughout the whole affair. He jumped on Dinah because she was communicating with the Vigilante and didn't even ask her to explain. We saw the interaction she had with the Vigilante; at no time did she want to even converse with him and asked him to stop stalking her. Oliver didn't even give her a chance to explain. During the whole reveal in the Arrow lair, when Rene admitted that he was the one to turn Oliver's alias over to the FBI, at no point did Oliver even apologize to Dinah. For me, this whole episode left a sour taste in my mouth. I think the whole thing was poorly written and was just done to shake things up drama wise. Rene's 2nd betrayal was just because he was anxious to save Lance. It wasn't done to simply disobey Oliver's orders. Rene and Curtis were on the scene and decided to follow the Black Siren and save Lance. Yes, Laurel had decided to let Lance go, but that doesn't take away from the fact that Rene and Curtis thought they were doing the right thing.

Didnt Dinah blurted out to Vince that Oliver is the Green Arrow? That could be seen as a betrayal also.

[legaleagle53]

15 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Not that I`m bitter...

Isn't that pretty much what Iris said at the end?

[insomniadreams88]

4 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

Didnt Dinah blurted out to Vince that Oliver is the Green Arrow? That could be seen as a betrayal also.

You know, I don't even know if we can blame that on Dinah or not. They acted like Vince already knew, but we never had anything on-screen that would indicate he did. Yes, Dinah could have told him off-screen at some point (and therefore it would still be a betrayal) or she never told him and it could be the writers thinking that it was a fact Vince knew, not realizing why he would is because he's working with other villains who do and that Dinah wouldn't know that, or the writers just not thinking when they wrote that conversation. 

[Mellowyellow]

I want to know what the Hoffmans gave Olicity and who had the idea to invite them to the wedding. I'm thinking Oliver as he seemed to like the Hoffmans and suburban life.