Avengers: Infinity War (2018)

[HunterHunted]

35 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Of course, this just raises the question of what Barnes was up to while Killmonger was trying to take the throne, since both T'Challa and Shuri knew he was still in Wakanda. Hell, Shuri was actively helping him acclimate, since in the end credits scene in Black Panther she tells him something like, 'There's a lot left to be done, so let's get to work.'

We see Bucky being refrozen in Wakanda at the end of Civil War. We don't actually see him again until the end of Black Panther when Shuri starts working with him. I think the implication is that Bucky was on ice during the short reign of Killmonger, which like most MCU events doesn't last more than a week. It seems as if Shuri doesn't start to actively work with Bucky to deprogram him until after Killmonger's death and T'Challa deals with the treasonous individuals in the Border tribe.

The brevity of the catastrophic events in the MCU reminds me of my first college roommate. She came from a family of farmers. They had 9 kids in her family. The nearest hospital was over 4 hours away. Only one of the kids was actually born in the hospital. Most were born on the way and 3 were born in the hospital entrance/driveway. Her dad kept complaining about how long it took to deliver the one baby in the hospital; it was 5 1/2 hours including the drive. If there truly is a time jump in Avengers 4, it's going to drive the remaining Avengers bonkers because none of them have had to deal with a catastrophic event that lasted more than 5 days, let alone 5 years, during the past decade.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

29 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

We see Bucky being refrozen in Wakanda at the end of Civil War. We don't actually see him again until the end of Black Panther when Shuri starts working with him. I think the implication is that Bucky was on ice during the short reign of Killmonger, which like most MCU events doesn't last more than a week. It seems as if Shuri doesn't start to actively work with Bucky to deprogram him until after Killmonger's death and T'Challa deals with the treasonous individuals in the Border tribe.

Except this is like Bucky still only having one arm when we see him in IW. Somebody else said it way upthread, but there's no way it took Shuri two whole years to try replacing the mechanical limb that was destroyed in Civil War, so she must have created one long before then, only Barnes rejected it for whatever reason. So either they'd been working together intermittently after she deprogrammed him, which gave him the presence of mind to decide that the new arm was a weapon and therefore something he wanted nothing to do with, or he had only been out of cryo for a very short time. The real life gap between Black Panther and Infinity War was only a month or two, since BP hit theaters in February and IW was released at the end of April, but if two years had already gone by after T'Chaka's assassination and Killmonger's attempt to rise to power, what could Bucky have been doing?

I know I'm trying to apply actual logic to the MCU, which clears things up a lot more speedily than you'd expect in reality. If they could get the Sokovian Accords approved by however many countries in a matter of days, they can certainly have Bucky be unable to help while his new allies are fighting off an usurper. Still. It bugs.

[Wynterwolf]

20 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

but if two years had already gone by after T'Chaka's assassination and Killmonger's attempt to rise to power, what could Bucky have been doing?

It was only days from the end of CW to the events in Black Panther. 

Quote

“It begins where Civil War left off,” Moore said during a press visit to the Black Panther set. “Obviously that movie had a big impact on T'Challa because T'Chaka was killed. Now we answer the question, ‘What happens when he goes home? Who rules Wakanda? How does Wakanda deal with the loss of a king who was a fair king, who people seemed to like, and is T'Challa ready to be the king of Wakanda?’”

Bucky was either there in cryo if you ignore the comic-ties in, or not there yet and still out with Steve before going back into cryo.  And its "roughly two years" between the end of CW and the beginning of IW which was enough time for Shuri to heal him, help rehabilitate him, design and build him a new arm, and for him to decide to be a goat herder for awhile and not use the new arm.  

Edited November 5, 2018 by Wynterwolf

[HunterHunted]

As @Wynterwolf said, we know for a fact that Black Panther occurs a couple of days after Civil War. Of the things she had to deal with in the days and weeks after Civil War, I can imagine that a brainwashed Buckicle is the lowest priority. She's got:

• her father's death
• her brother becoming king
• the attempt to capture Wakanda's greatest criminal
• her secret cousin overthrowing her family
• the battle to get her country back
• whatever legal tribunals that would come out of the Wakandan civil war
• the new Wakandan science and technology outreach that her brother has charged her with

If it took even 6 months for Shuri to decide to deal with Bucky's deprogramming, it would be completely understandable. I think it's been implied that they've been working with Bucky off and on during the 2 years. There is also something about the presentation of the arm to Bucky that suggests they've offered it to him before and he rejected it. He asks "Where's the fight?" T'Challa replies "On the way." Bucky gives a resigned sigh.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

19 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

It was only a week or so from the end of CW to the events in Black Panther.

Huh. I had forgotten that the timeline was that tight. And Shuri did have quite a lot on her plate, things to deal with besides whatever she could do to hep Bucky. I just remember that it didn't seem to be the first time he'd been offered a new arm, and that the only reason he agreed to take it was because Thanos was about to attack. Outside of that circumstance, my headcanon is that he was okay being without it because of everything he'd used the last arm for.

Honestly, I hope the streaming series deals with that, Bucky's life after being the Soldier and how he comes to terms with being a 'real boy' after so long as a meat puppet and/or wind up toy. Let him and Sam be friends and have some small adventures, and if Rogers occasionally makes an appearance, I'm reluctantly okay with that. I think Sebastian Stan can make Bucky a lot more than just someone who is a source of angst for another character, so let's see that going forward.

[Jenniferbug]

8 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I think Sebastian Stan can make Bucky a lot more than just someone who is a source of angst for another character, so let's see that going forward.

THIS. Look, I like Sebastian Stan and I think he is more than capable of making Bucky awesome. But currently- in my unpopular opinion- Bucky is basically a nonentity. He has very little personality or agency, and I'm sometimes baffled that so much time is spent discussing a character who is not fleshed out. I don't particularly dislike Bucky, but neither do I like him- because there's not much to like or dislike. I've realized that most of my negative reactions to Bucky aren't about him as an individual, but about how other characters are reacting and interacting with him. I WANT to like Bucky. I want to see what Sebastian Stan can do with him. So PLEASE let's see it! 

[Wynterwolf]

That was my biggest disappointment from IW... this was finally going to be when Bucky would get a chance to interact with the other characters as himself.  And I did like the few seconds we got with Rocket, but... 2 freakin' minutes.  

[Kel Varnsen]

52 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

It was only days from the end of CW to the events in Black Panther. 

Bucky was either there in cryo if you ignore the comic-ties in, or not there yet and still out with Steve before going back into cryo.  And its "roughly two years" between the end of CW and the beginning of IW which was enough time for Shuri to heal him, help rehabilitate him, design and build him a new arm, and for him to decide to be a goat herder for awhile and not use the new arm.  

The two years makes sense considering that Scott Lange had pretty much served his sentence for house arrest in Ant-Man and The Wasp. That said we first meet Peter Parker in CW and then in Homecoming he says he is 15. If Infinity War is 2 years later is Peter 17? Will he be done high school by his next movie?

That said, timlines aren't Marvel's strong suit. Considering that in Civil War Cap and Bucky leave the airport and fly directly to Siberia while Tony leaves the airport, flies back to Avengers HQ, talks to Rhodes and Natasha,  then to the Raft,  then flies in the suit to Siberia and makes it there before Cap in a quinjet.

[Dee]

3 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

That said, timlines aren't Marvel's strong suit.

You aren't kidding. Fury & Hill basically disappear for most of Phase 2 & 3 and nobody even blinks an eye.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

51 minutes ago, Dee said:

You aren't kidding. Fury & Hill basically disappear for most of Phase 2 & 3 and nobody even blinks an eye.

How did they clear up Fury being considered legally dead, anyway? Because the Winter Soldier supposedly killed him, and they never make any further mention of the headstone that allegedly marks his final resting place, but when he shows up in AoU Tony's only initially startled to see him. So many questions.

[Raja]

4 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

How did they clear up Fury being considered legally dead, anyway? Because the Winter Soldier supposedly killed him, and they never make any further mention of the headstone that allegedly marks his final resting place, but when he shows up in AoU Tony's only initially startled to see him. So many questions.

There is probably nothing to clear up, he is a spy moving around using cover identities. The ex S.H.I.E.L.D crew of the Helicarrier and those supporting The Avengers may be among the few who know that Director Fury didn't die when S.H.I.E.L.D fell.

[Bruinsfan]

Dr. Strange was when I gave up trying to figure out any coherent timeline of the MCU movies, it just made my head hurt.

[festivus]

18 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Honestly, I hope the streaming series deals with that, Bucky's life after being the Soldier and how he comes to terms with being a 'real boy' after so long as a meat puppet and/or wind up toy.

This right here. Bucky could be a fascinating character and like has been said, he's mostly been around as a prop for other people's stories. His own story could be so interesting. I certainly think SS is up to the task.

[HunterHunted]

19 hours ago, Raja said:

There is probably nothing to clear up, he is a spy moving around using cover identities. The ex S.H.I.E.L.D crew of the Helicarrier and those supporting The Avengers may be among the few who know that Director Fury didn't die when S.H.I.E.L.D fell.

This is explicitly spelled out in Agents of SHIELD. The helicarrier and crew were found and deployed  by Coulson. Almost all of SHIELD knew that Fury was "dead." Coulson let a select few ppagents in on the fact that Fury faked his death.

6 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

Dr. Strange was when I gave up trying to figure out any coherent timeline of the MCU movies, it just made my head hurt.

I don't know that anyone has managed to make any sense of Doctor Strange's timeline even with Scott Derrickson trying to explain it.

[Perfect Xero]

On 11/4/2018 at 5:15 PM, HunterHunted said:

I saw this last week on Reddit.

https://amp.cinemablend.com/news/2460702/bucky-almost-rocked-a-wakandan-look-in-infinity-war

It reminds me of my Bucky related disappointments in Infinity War:

1. A longer reunion with Steve and
2. Something that tied Bucky a little more to Wakanda:

• joining in on the "yibambe" chant,
• maybe drop a little Xhosa, and
• now I can add a Wakandan inspired outfit.

The man had been there for 2 years. He'd been raising goats and the Wakandans trusted him enough to give him a new arm and put him on the frontlines. I feel like he might have joined in on the chant or another Wakandan jokingly calls him "old man" in Xhosa while they await Thanos' attack.

I suspect that they didn't know what they were really going to do with him after Avengers 4. Whether he was going to take on the mantle of Cap, be the White Wolf, or the Winter Soldier-reformed assassin.

I don't know if it played in, but I can imagine white directors having concerns about whether it's okay to show a white guy in traditional Wakandan dress or joining in on a traditional chant and opting for the safe route.

[Wynterwolf]

3 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

or joining in on a traditional chant

Yeah, especially since that appeared to be a battle chant, which Bucky was shown to be specifically staying away from.  And we did have him in Wakandan dress in the end credit scene.  

[Morrigan2575]

10 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I don't know if it played in, but I can imagine white directors having concerns about whether it's okay to show a white guy in traditional Wakandan dress or joining in on a traditional chant and opting for the safe route.

Probably also comes down to simultaneous filming between the movies and, not really knowing what Bucky's life in Wakanda would be like so just treat him as part of Steve's crew and not Wakanda's

[Raja]

It seems that Marvel has an official name for how people will react to the Thanos snapture. 

The Decimation

Of course they had to sidestep all the religions end of world terminology, even if that was at the expense of real world New York versus fake world Metropolis roots of the company. Let the arguments that it Thanos took  a lot more than 10% begin.

[Lantern7]

"Decimation" isn't really accurate. Technically, that's if ten percent are eliminated. I learned that from Doctor Who. But, yeah, people would absoutely go bugfuck seeing loved ones turned to cosmic ash. Of course, with the Infinity Gauntlet in play, that could be undone, and I don't think that would be cheap.

ETA: "Cheap" = "All the heroes are brought by, one of them makes a joke, Groot shouts 'I am Groot,' and they laugh and laugh until the footage freezes."

Edited December 7, 2018 by Lantern7

[Cobalt Stargazer]

24 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

"Decimation" isn't really accurate. Technically, that's if ten percent are eliminated. I learned that from Doctor Who. But, yeah, people would absoutely go bugfuck seeing loved ones turned to cosmic ash.

Not to mention the collateral damage of so many people disintegrating. In the end credits scene, before Nick and Maria Hill turn to dust, a plane crashes into a building in the background. So some of the Snapture's victims would be pilots and bus drivers and whatever else just going about their work day when they disappear.

[tennisgurl]

I still like "The Snappening" better.

[Browncoat]

8 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I still like "The Snappening" better.

Or the Snapture.

[starri]

Odds of Avengers: Decimation being our official title?

[Wynterwolf]

18 minutes ago, starri said:

Odds of Avengers: Decimation being our official title?

Could be.  TPTB could have been annoyed enough when Annihilation leaked that they changed it and Decimation is similar enough to convey the same idea.  Doesn't really have quite the same gravitas as Annihilation though.  Now the scuttlebutt is that the title still might not be part of the trailer release tomorrow.   

[Kel Varnsen]

23 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

Could be.  TPTB could have been annoyed enough when Annihilation leaked that they changed it and Decimation is similar enough to convey the same idea.  Doesn't really have quite the same gravitas as Annihilation though.  Now the scuttlebutt is that the title still might not be part of the trailer release tomorrow.   

Someone upthtead suggested Avengers Forever, which I kind of love, not only because it was an amazing Kurt Busiek Avengers story but it was also about time travel, which could be relevant. Annihilation and Decimation sound like bad video game titles. Of couse Avengers 4Ever would be even worse.

[Bruinsfan]

Surely they learned the lesson of Fant4stic Four?

[anna0852]

2 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Could be.  TPTB could have been annoyed enough when Annihilation leaked that they changed it and Decimation is similar enough to convey the same idea.  Doesn't really have quite the same gravitas as Annihilation though.  Now the scuttlebutt is that the title still might not be part of the trailer release tomorrow.   

We get a trailer release tomorrow?!

[Wynterwolf]

2 minutes ago, anna0852 said:

We get a trailer release tomorrow?!

Supposed to be tomorrow morning (9am EST).  Then FFH on Saturday.  

[anna0852]

I'm not emotionally ready for this 

[Lantern7]

@Wynterwolf. . . FFH?

[Wynterwolf]

4 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

@Wynterwolf. . . FFH?

Spider-Man: Far From Home. 

[Lantern7]

Just now, Wynterwolf said:

Spider-Man: Far From Home. 

Holy shit. ALREADY?!? Isn't that in August? Is it because Disney wants to ride the good will towards Into The Spider-Verse? From what I hear, that might raise the bar for Spider-Man films. Not enough to have Tom Holland interact with a CGI talking pig in a Spider-Man costume, but still . . .

Trying to predict the trailer . . . .forlorn looks. Lots of forlorn looks. I don't think the funny would come in force until the second trailer. My ideal situation: start the trailer by having Luis (Scott's pal from the Ant Man movies) explain Infinity War in 60-90 seconds. I also don't think we'd get anything mean towards Scott or Clint (re: "A guy that can shrink himself and a dude with a bow? Wow, imagine if they were fighting alongside us last time. Thanos wouldn't even exist!!")

[Wynterwolf]

I think as of now, Spider-man is July.  So they have Captain Marvel in March, A4 in May and Spider-Man in July and they're all tied together so I think it makes sense to coordinate the marketing.  

[Jenniferbug]

8 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Supposed to be tomorrow morning (9am EST).  Then FFH on Saturday.  

Where is it being released today? GMA? 

[Lantern7]

ENDGAME!

[Jenniferbug]

Yeah I went to their Facebook page to see where it was premiering and they already posted it early! 

I'm not ready. But I'm so ready at the same time. 

[anna0852]

Ahhhhhh! I'm about to choke! 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Oh, God, this is gonna hurt.

[Crs97]

I only watch avengers for Tony and Pepper’s love story so that beginning

Spoiler

gutted me.

 I don’t know if I need to spoiler-tag my reaction since I don’t know anything about the movie beyond that trailer, but just in case . . .

[Morrigan2575]

There's an entire thread dedicated to Avengers Endgame

[Cobalt Stargazer]

22 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

There's an entire thread dedicated to Avengers Endgame

Is there information from behind the scenes, like spoilers and such? It's a long wait until the film hits theaters, so I've been avoiding it.

[Dandesun]

1 minute ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Is there information from behind the scenes, like spoilers and such? It's a long wait until the film hits theaters, so I've been avoiding it.

Endgame is locked down tight. There's no behind the scenes stuff in the thread, it's all trailer reactions at the moment. Also, hopes and dreams.

But mostly just feelings.

[Wynterwolf]

9 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Is there information from behind the scenes, like spoilers and such? It's a long wait until the film hits theaters, so I've been avoiding it.

If you haven't already, you probably want to mute me. 

[BooBear]

That is right, I just now, saw infinity war. So I will give you all my thoughts. 

1. Joe and Anthony Russo imho are responsible for the MCU. They are talented filmmakers and in particular have done the large majority of good movies in the MCU,  I don't know if the MCU can really do well if they aren't doing most of the movies.  

2. The movie was wonderfully paced. I honestly didn't realize 2 hours had passed. Everyone had a story and each one told what was necessary without boring times. 

3. Prior to seeing the movie I had seen clips on you tube. The movie was better and everything flowed in the actual movie. 

4. The movie was also so good because of the Villain. Thanos was amazing. All the most compelling bad guys don't think of themselves as the bad guy and here, I think every viewer has a moment where they feel for him or wonder if he isn't right. All the more impressive because he is a CGI creature.  I can definitely see them using Thanos as an unlikely ally in the future. 

5. Actually liked Dr. Strange and Tony quipping at each other.  Even in such dire straights I laughed at Tony a lot. "you throw another moon at me and I am gonna lose it" <g>

6. There is no way Cap and Nat aren't a thing.

7.  it was so creepy how the movie ended without music. Just the quiet breeze and Cap sitting there devastated. 

[Danny Franks]

I finally got around to watching this movie, after reading spoilers when it was released and deciding I wasn't really interested in the direction they were going in. It's pretty much what I expected - some killer scenes and genuinely funny/moving/sad moments, but the main problem was the relentless trudge as Thanos overcomes every hero and obstacle that's put in his way, with inconsistent levels of effort.

I feel bad for some of the actors in this franchise, who might spend weeks running about, dodging tennis ball monsters, only to find that they get about three minutes of screen-time. I'm not sure if Bucky, Falcon or Nebula had more than a couple of lines each. Having said that, there were still inexplicable absences, like Valkyrie and Nakia. They don't make much sense, when you think that they brought everyone else in for a few scenes, including Idris Elba for all of thirty seconds.

But going all out on Thanos as a sort of villainous protagonist, and emphasising his journey, his sacrifices and his desire (for whatever reason) to destroy half the universe? Big fail. I didn't care. I have no interest in a woobie-faced, purple giant who is smarter, stronger, quicker, more powerful and generally all-round more awesome than anyone else, strolling through the movie, getting ever more powerful, and besting everyone. But then they expect me to be interested in coming back to see just what contrivance they can come up with to somehow defeat him when he's even more powerful.

They kill Gamora, but make it all about the manpain of Thanos (her murderer) and Quill. Nice. I mean, it's very faithfully comic book-y, in its use of women as plot devices and angst-drivers. But it's an utter waste of a great character. Why am I going to care about Thanos' supposed love for Gamora, after hearing nothing but how he tortured and abused her, for her entire life? Why are they spending all this time trying to give this character depth and nuance, when he's the literal personification of 'galaxy destroying supervillain'?

Then they erase a bunch of other characters, as fuel for more Cap/Tony angst (seriously, Bucky might as well just be a cardboard cutout with "Cap's manpain" written on it, and the melodrama of Spider-Man disintegrating was silly). But we already know they're all coming back, because some of them have movies or TV series in the works. The only ones who might actually be leaving the franchise are the ones who didn't turn to dust - Tony, Cap and Thor. And Loki, but I imagine Tom Hiddleston has probably had enough of playing the ever-decreasing depth of that character.

Also, why, in one of the most advanced nations on the planet, does the army fight with swords and spears? Sure, ceremony and tradition, but when you're being attacked by alien dog-monsters, shouldn't you be prepared and have some actual high-tech weaponry available? Seems like a bog-standard, modern military would have done better, being able to actually shoot things before they get close enough to bite you.

Pretty much all of the bits I really liked revolved around Thor. His meeting with the Guardians, forging the replacement hammer, then his genuinely awesome arrival on earth. He came off as the only Avenger that Thanos would have any cause to worry about. But of course, he's conveniently busy as the rest of the Avengers line up to get thumped by Thanos, as he goes for Vision's forehead gem.

I like Elizabeth Olson's performance too. She gives Wanda more depth and vulnerability than most of the rest of the characters, and there's always that shadow of instability that comic book Wanda had. Makes me sad that the MCU will never be in a position to have a "No more mutants" moment.

And I still really like Mark Ruffalo's squirrelly, uncomfortable energy as Bruce Banner. Just a shame they had to call back to that shitty 'romance' with Nat. I wish he'd spent more time doing science and less time being an overgrown Iron Man.

Honestly, this movie would have been so much more interesting if it had ended with the most established Avengers being turned to dust, leaving the newer ones to figure out how to fix things. As it is, it did the exact opposite of what I imagine Marvel is going to need to do over the next few years - if they want this franchise to keep making money, they need to build new characters, and not rely so much on the original cast. But what they did is say, 'all of these new people don't really matter. We can erase them and you'll still come to watch the next movie, because it's got Cap, Iron Man, Thor and Hulk in it'.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Danny Franks

[AimingforYoko]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

As it is, it did the exact opposite of what I imagine Marvel is going to need to do over the next few years - if they want this franchise to keep making money, they need to build new characters, and not rely so much on the original cast. But what they did is say, 'all of these new people don't really matter. We can erase them and you'll still come to watch the next movie, because it's got Cap, Iron Man, Thor and Hulk in it'.

They are going to lean on the newbies going forward, that's why they had the OGs survive, this almost certainly is going to be their swan song.

[Wynterwolf]

2 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

They are going to lean on the newbies going forward, that's why they had the OGs survive, this almost certainly is going to be their swan song.

Yeah, it should close the loop on the 6 of them as a team at least, and complete the team building arc that was started way back in The Avengers.  

[HunterHunted]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

And I still really like Mark Ruffalo's squirrelly, uncomfortable energy as Bruce Banner. Just a shame they had to call back to that shitty 'romance' with Nat. I wish he'd spent more time doing science and less time being an overgrown Iron Man.

I'm one of those weird ones who doesn't mind the Bruce and Natasha relationship in part because I don't get the sense that it was ever supposed to work out. I think we were supposed to see how isolated Bruce was despite being on the team. Also the relationship was better than at least a couple of the canon relationships: Steve and Sharon, Christine Palmer and Stephen Strange, and Thor and Jane. And luckily we were spared the tonal mismatch of Ruffalo and Liv Tyler's awful breathy whispering. Frankly, I think the torpedoed Cap and Ashley Johnson's waitress Beth relationship is better than the aforementioned relationships.

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Honestly, this movie would have been so much more interesting if it had ended with the most established Avengers being turned to dust, leaving the newer ones to figure out how to fix things. As it is, it did the exact opposite of what I imagine Marvel is going to need to do over the next few years - if they want this franchise to keep making money, they need to build new characters, and not rely so much on the original cast. But what they did is say, 'all of these new people don't really matter. We can erase them and you'll still come to watch the next movie, because it's got Cap, Iron Man, Thor and Hulk in it'.

I agree. I wish the dusting had been a more creative mix of old and new. It would make you wonder if the characters left standing at the end of Infinity War were truly the new normal. It killed a lot of the suspense for Endgame by having essentially only the originals left.

[VCRTracking]

4 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Honestly, this movie would have been so much more interesting if it had ended with the most established Avengers being turned to dust, leaving the newer ones to figure out how to fix things. As it is, it did the exact opposite of what I imagine Marvel is going to need to do over the next few years - if they want this franchise to keep making money, they need to build new characters, and not rely so much on the original cast. But what they did is say, 'all of these new people don't really matter. We can erase them and you'll still come to watch the next movie, because it's got Cap, Iron Man, Thor and Hulk in it'.

Watching part 1 I thought either Tony or Cap or both would be killed fighting Thanos and then would be brought back to life with the rest of the people who were snapped. in the next movie Their surviving the other original means to me that someone is definitely dying in part 2 and it will be for good. I also think the devastating defeat and despair was more effective coming from the established characters because we've seen them have mostly victories in the previous movies.

17 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

I'm one of those weird ones who doesn't mind the Bruce and Natasha relationship in part because I don't get the sense that it was ever supposed to work out. I think we were supposed to see how isolated Bruce was despite being on the team.

Yeah, people who watched his shows knows Joss Whedon likes to write mostly doomed romances. He's not about the "They lived happily ever after". They never last for one reason and it was funny that people complained and gave reasons how Bruce and Natasha would never work out when Age of Ultron already does a thorough job why they wouldn't!

[HunterHunted]

15 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Yeah, people who watched his shows knows Joss Whedon likes to write mostly doomed romances. He's not about the "They lived happily ever after". They never last for one reason and it was funny that people complained and gave reasons how Bruce and Natasha would never work out when Age of Ultron already does a thorough job why they wouldn't!

Buffy and Angel. Happy ending? Nope.

Buffy and Spike. Happy ending? Nope.

Willow and Tara. Happy ending? Nope.

Xander and Anya. Happy ending? Nope.

Angel and Cordelia. Happy ending? Nope.

Fred and Gunn. Happy ending? Nope.

Fred and Wesley. Happy ending? Nope.

Wash and Zoe. Happy ending? Nope.

Kaylee and Simon. Happy ending? Yep.

Victor and Sierra. Happy ending? Nope.

Paul Ballard and Echo. Happy ending? Nope.

Billy/Dr. Horrible, Penny, and Captain Hammer. Happy ending? Nope.

Joss resurrected Colossus, restarted the Kitty Pryde/Colossus relationship, and then had Kitty stuck in a massive world destroying bullet traveling the universe.

I think everyone was thinking about it like a typical romance plot instead of a Joss Whedon romance. With a Joss romance, you have to consider which one of them is going to end up miserable, evil, or dead.