S04.E10: A Dark Knight: Things That Go Boom

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Gordon tries to broker a deal with Penguin that involves Sofia. Meanwhile, Alfred tries to pull Bruce out of his teenage-angst and downward spiral, as Lee Thompkins gains more control over the Narrows.

[Kathemy]

Again... "teenage-angst"? Is that a word for a synopsis? If that's what the writers think of it, why do they believe we want to see it?

[Miss Dee]

Not writers. Promoters. They're worlds apart.

[Horsesrunwild]

11 hours ago, Kathemy said:

Again... "teenage-angst"? Is that a word for a synopsis? If that's what the writers think of it, why do they believe we want to see it?

I am sure that is going to turn viewers away. Hopefully this synopsis does not hurt the ratings the next day. I shudder to think about it.

[DR14]

On 11/29/2017 at 7:54 AM, Kathemy said:

Again... "teenage-angst"? Is that a word for a synopsis? If that's what the writers think of it, why do they believe we want to see it?

And neither appeared tonight, strangely.

[Pyralis]

I have no clue what was going on tonight, but it wasn't "teenage-angst".   Can anyone diagram the whole Penguin-Sofia-3 Amigas thing, cause I've got nothing.

[WritinMan]

Well, no teenage angst this week. Thankfully.

Man, Barbara's hair looks terrible. It's all I can see when she's on the screen.

I like how Zsasz always seems to really enjoy his work. It's important to like your job.

[DR14]

First time this season I've been able to watch live.

I may be alone, but it felt like a filler episode to me.  Good to see cunning Oswald though.

Hoping for a great finale, and hope there is lots of Bruce next week.

Edited December 1, 2017 by DR14

[Lantern7]

This week: everybody whips out figurative erections. Jim, Leslie, Oswald, Barbara, Lazlo (that's Prof. Pyg), Sofia . . . and I'm thinking Zsasz had a literal boner intercepting Sofia. He probably only gets those by watching snuff films. He is an invaluable secondary character, though. I'd like a crossover where he meets (a) Leonard Snart.

On many levels, I knew Martin wasn't dead, but the explosion was a "WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?!?!" moment, wasn't it? I mean, Oswald has a heart, but blowing up his protege was within his M.O.

Also fun seeing Leslie deal with the local gang. Does every group of thugs have their own dress code? They were snazzy. Gotta love Lee putting the screws to the boss, then telling Ed that he's okay after all. Bonus: Riddler shows up in the mirror, so more split personality drama! And Grundy just looms.

Sofia was doing pretty good, in the sense that she was tossed around like a baseball. And then Oswald had Zsasz blow up Barbara's HQ with a rocket launcher.

Being a guard in any capacity has to be the wrong gig you can have in Gotham City. If you watch over a main character, you'll gonna get hurt, if not killed.

On 11/26/2017 at 8:48 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Quote

Meanwhile, Alfred tries to pull Bruce out of his teenage-angst and downward spiral . . .

Once again, this feels like Arlo Guthrie singing "Alice's Restaurant." "Y'all remember Bruce? This is a series about Bruce." Maybe Jerome can help where Alfred couldn't.

[Chaos Theory]

Fun episode.

I really enjoyed the scenes with Barbara, Tabitha, Selina, and Sofia.  I also loved Lee fighting for control off the Narrows.  She really shouldn't have told Nygma the truth.  Now he is going to be on his way to becoming the Riddler again and I really enjoyed the pairing of Lee and Nygma.  They were fun.   Who knew Dark Lee Queen of the Narrows would be my favorite Lee?

[Horsesrunwild]

I thought Bruce and Alfred were going to be in this episode??

[thuganomics85]

Hmm... something must have change at the last minute since there was no Bruce or Alfred at all, despite the episode's initial description.

Anyway, in unsurprising news, Professor Pyg has already escaped Arkham Asylum, because that place has the worst security ever outside of GCPD.  But at least Jim has learned a little more about him like this isn't his real face, and he's actually a criminal from the south who has changed his motives for reasons left unexplained for now.  Michael Cerveris continues to be delightful in the role.

Sofia and Oswald finally come to ahead, but it basically ends with Oswald "killing" Martin, and throwing Sofia for a loop because that wasn't part of her grand plan. So, now there is likely going to be a full-blown.  Oswald likely has the advantage number wise, but Sofia seems to have Barbara, Tabitha, and Selina on her side now (even if they don't like it), and that certainly isn't a trio to underestimate!

Lee continuing to be the new Queen of the Narrows is great.  But "Riddler" is back inside Nygma's head, so that is could be just a wee bit problematic!

Zsasz continues to be the best henchman of all time.

[nilyank]

I don’t know, I just want Selina away from Babs. Tabitha is fine but I don’t  want see Selina gunrunning, kidnapping and threatening a child’s life. Selina is suppose to be a theif and I would like to see her develop cat burglar skills.

And is Selina ever going to Bruce while he is spiraling and like a billionaire brat? I think the last meaningful scene that they had together was on the roof together before Alfred interrupted them.

I love Penguin throwing in Sofia’s face that his parents loved him unconditionally while Falcone doesn’t for her.

I knew Martin was safe and I am glad that I was right.

[DR14]

Gotham's had better moments.

-No Bruce...despite him in the synopsis, Alfred too.

-Sofia was going away, but then no. The kid was killed, then no.

-What was the point of the Jim/Pyg encounter here?

-No Harvey Bullock

-Not sure what they are doing with Ed/Lee at this point. Hallucinations again, hooray.

-Selina is apparently okay with child kidnapping

 

At least Victor Zsasz is back.

[Kostgard]

God. I hope Pyg comes back. Just the opening with him killing a guy with a record and then tasting his blood was just horribly perfect. Someone on reddit pointed out that "Lazlo" was the name of someone who worked for Fish back a few seasons. I kinda hope that's not him. I want him to be someone more interesting.

Okay, I really, really thought that Sofia was going to be the one to kill Martin or pretend to kill Martin to shake Oswald. I didn't think Oswald would be ahead of her on that count (and nice way to show Sofia that poking at his "weakness" wasn't going to work anymore). And I thought Oswald would just continue to see Martin only as an extension of himself (going on about how he had so much to teach him, grooming him to be his heir). Caring enough to let Martin go rather than selfishly finding a way to keep him around (so he can continue to have a reflection of himself following him around) shows, like, some actual growth. Color me surprised. Well played, Oswald. I underestimated you.

And once he woke up, Oswald was back to reading people pretty well. Taunting Sofia about how her daddy doesn't respect her? Ice cold, dude.

God bless Zsasz and his partnership with Oswald. Whatever happens, I hope these two stick together. Zsasz is entertaining on his own (I love how much he enjoyed launching a rocket at the Sirens, and I loved his kinda "Ew. Feelings" reaction to Oswald hugging Martin goodbye), but moments like Oswald yelling all, "WHAT? HOW DOES BARBARA KNOW?" with Zsasz hissing, "She's on the phone!" are gold. These two just have a great "odd couple" vibe and the show would be foolish to throw it away.

Jim is still dumber than a box of rocks. He seriously just now really pieced together how Sofia has been using him? He honestly thought he could just send her home like he's her dad and she'd just go quietly? He honestly thought Oswald would agree to stepping away from crime that easily and would drop his grudge against Sofia that easily? He honestly thought it would be cool to just leave Pyg with the oldest guard in Arkham instead of a team of very buff, very smart guards? Jim? You continue to be the worst. 

I enjoy Barbara, but Selina still needs to break away on her own. 

Not sure how I feel about Lee leading the Narrows. Girl, just go be a doctor. And she's right - Ed Nygma is a likable guy. The Riddler is a dick. So OF COURSE the moment Lee tells Ed that she considers him a friend, guess who pops back up like a green, sparkly cold sore? 

I hope Alfred kicks Bruce's ass next week.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Kostgard

[darkestboy]

Good episode. Oswald vs. Sofia and the Sirens has some great potential. 

Glad that he didn't actually kill Martin though even if he let his enemies think that he did.

Gordon was better with the Pyg part of the episode than he was with the Oswald/Sofia bit.

Not surprised that Pyg managed to escape from Arkham though.

I was liking the Leslie/Nygma friendship and found their team up against that rival neighbourhood guy interesting enough but I guess that's gonna end now that the Riddler is back, 7/10

[Chaos Theory]

This has actually been my favorite season in awhile.  I am enjoying all the female action which has been missing in large part.    Barbara has always been my favorite character.  I am really enjoying the team of Barbara Tabitha and Selina.  Of course Selina needs to go off on her own eventually but she is in essentially the same place Bruce is right now.  Figuring out who she is and isn’t.  The version of herself she is confortable with.

And I am really liking Lee without Jim.  She is all dark and sexy and a little mean.  Plus she has actual chemistry with Nygma which fun.  It will be interesting to see what is going to happen now that Nygma is going to lose his marbles again.  

As for Sophia I actually loved the scene with her on the train when Zsasz shot off her cuffs.  Of course she wasn’t going anywhere.  The carefully crafted battle with Penguin is about to get bloody.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Proteus]

That was my favorite episode so far this season. I love the Sirens trio and I'm glad they are now being forced to work with Sofia. Those women look so good together.

I hope Sofia gets over Jim. He's not worth the headache.

Ugh to Riddler. Same storyline as always.

[Kathemy]

I'm starting to legitimately dislike this season. I've never seen a string of Gotham episodes more nonsensical than what we're served this year.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Kathemy

[DR14]

13 minutes ago, Kathemy said:

I'm starting to legitimately dislike this season. I've never seen a string of Gotham episodes more nonsensical that what we're served this year.

It wasn't just me that thought this installment was rather meh.  Ok cool.  Was starting to question myself.

[Kathemy]

By the way the best time ever to use "Perfect Day" as the soundtrack of a Gotham episode would've been for this Bruce storyline.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Kathemy

[Kostgard]

While I enjoyed this episode overall (because we got some unexpected - for me - character development for Oswald,  we finally got a tiny bit of movement on Ed's story line, and hey, the return of Zsasz!), I do think all of Sofia's meticulous planning kinda fell apart into a mess in the end. She spent all that time working her way through Oswald's empire to undermine him, intentionally pulled the trigger by telling Martin to tell Oswald he saw her kissing Jim, then her big plan was to...run to Jim and ask him to send the GCPD after Oswald? She had kidnapping Martin as a backup plan, obviously, but her plan was to just be all, "Hand over the keys to EVERYTHING or else the kid gets it"? There was at least a small possibility that Oswald wouldn't agree to that or would end up trying to undermine her (exactly like he did). She only kinda fell into having the Sirens as backup. If they hadn't decided to kidnap her to get at Oswald, she would have basically had no back up to her demands. Where were all these "captains" from Oswald's empire that she was turning against him? Shouldn't she have had them with her at the big confrontation as a show of power? Wouldn't that make Oswald far more likely to cave to her demands when he saw that he had largely already lost because everyone had switched to Sofia's side?

That I found disappointing because Sofia's planning had been so smart and meticulous up to that point. It would have made sense if, say, she hadn't tasked Martin to tell Oswald about the kiss, and Oswald learned of her plans far earlier than she anticipated and she was scrambling because not all the pieces were in place. But she intentionally pulled that trigger...and then seemed largely unprepared for it other than being able to anticipate Oswald's moves. That's still defense. If she was ready to pull the trigger on Oswald learning the truth about her, then that totally should have moved her to an offensive position, but didn't.

I mean, I guess using Jim to take down Oswald was her plan all along, but she had far too many clues that Jim wasn't going to go for it before she ran to him all, "Hey! Take down Oswald then we can be together!" She should have had far more on Jim if she expected that part of it to work seamlessly.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Kostgard

[tennisgurl]

I love how each gang seems to coordinate costumes in Gotham. Oh Gotham, your the most Extra city that has ever existed. 

Zsasz just takes such joy in his job. He must be an absolute delight of an employee. If he doesn't have reason to murder you, of course. 

I actually really like this season. All of the characters are getting good stories, we have some interesting character interactions, and we have a creepy, kick ass villain. Plus, its hitting a good mix of being stylized, and having an actual story and characters to get invested in. Its weird and sometimes nonsense, but its interesting nonsense. 

[Chaos Theory]

5 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Its weird and sometimes nonsense, but its interesting nonsense. 

I think this is the best description I have ever seen of the show.    At its best Gotham is the fun and interesting and quite entertaining  nonsense.   I am not sure you can really ask for more then that.    

Edited December 1, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Kostgard]

30 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I actually really like this season. All of the characters are getting good stories, we have some interesting character interactions, and we have a creepy, kick ass villain. Plus, its hitting a good mix of being stylized, and having an actual story and characters to get invested in. Its weird and sometimes nonsense, but its interesting nonsense. 

I am too, really. Despite my complaints with how Sofia suddenly got sloppy this episode, I do feel that overall the writing has gotten better this season. The only downside to the streamlining of the writing is that a lot of times characters are benched for rather long stretches (RLT was at a con in Atlanta recently and he said something about how the filming has felt especially intense for him this season, and I was all, "Yeah, because you and Ben McKenzie are the only two actors who aren't given breaks this season.") but I think for the overall health of the show, it's better for a character to sit out an episode than for them to make up a reason for them to be there.

And yes - "Entertaining nonsense" is an excellent descriptor for this show. Some of it is just plain silly. Other things I think the knock out of the park. But it is definitely different from any other comic-based show on TV, it always looks amazing (...except Grundy. I just have issues with that character design. I hope they find a way to clean it up), and the performances range from "good" to "amazing." It's just good, fun, entertaining nonsense. Dig in.

As a side note, I've been entertained as the people in my Twitter feed catch up on the episode today. I've seen so many "WTF! OSWALD! What did you do?!" tweets followed a few minutes later with, "Okay, not dead. Carry on..."

[Danielg342]

Well, that was fun, even if my fair Sofia was reeling for most of the episode.

What sold it for me is that, finally, Oswald played to Sofia's weakness. See, Sofia is a master manipulator because she has everything planned and knows- exactly- how to strike at people because she's studied them in great detail.

It's why she bested The Dentist- she knew everything about him and used it to allow him to let her go.

However, Sofia's fatal flaw is that she's not a quick thinker- and Oswald used that to his advantage.

Oswald knew that Sofia would use Martin against him, and perhaps thought that there was no way that he'd ever hurt Martin. So when he blew up the car, Sofia had no chips left, allowing Oswald to escape and reclaim his empire.

It's also how Jim Gordon got the best of Sofia too. Sofia thought she could get to Jim's head by going for his heart, but Jim knew her ploy and when he rejected her, there was nothing Sofia could do.

Lesson learned, Sofia: Expect the Unexpected. Have a "Plan B".

Not thinking up alternate arrangements is what killed her (figuratively) in this episode.

It also became apparent in this episode that Sofia's weakness was her father's appreciation- Oswald mentioned it a few times to her and Sofia recoiled, each time.

So it does appear that now the other characters know how to get to her.

I also quite enjoyed Lee in this episode.

Usually the Narrows stuff feels like filler, but tonight went a long way to show that Lee could actually be Oswald's equal. She thought well on her feet, and had an answer for everything that Samson threw at her.

The poison does go against her pledge of diplomacy in that she harmed Samson, but she had a plan to mitigate it, and avoided an outright use of force that would have resulted in corresponding retaliation.

A lesson that Oswald himself seems unable to learn.

...and finally...Lazlo Valentine is Professor Pyg. I'm intrigued to know why Pyg thinks he's a reflection of Gordon- there certainly were hints of it in this episode (Pyg wanted to clean up corruption and didn't care who he harmed in the process, just like Gordon did), but there's hints that there's more to this relationship.

Stay tuned.

Oh, and no Bullock Meter because there was no Bullock tonight. *Sadface*, though I do understand why (possibly linked to personal issues for Donal Logue).

[jhlipton]

On 11/30/2017 at 9:39 PM, Kostgard said:

guess who pops back up like a green, sparkly cold sore?

This deserves a million Likes!

On 12/1/2017 at 10:03 AM, icemiser69 said:

The only way Gordon is ever going to catch Pyg, is if someone squeals.

I see what  you did there!

On 12/1/2017 at 0:46 PM, Kostgard said:

I do think all of Sofia's meticulous planning kinda fell apart into a mess in the end.

That was the worst part for me.  Sophia had been a brilliant mastermind, then all of the sudden she was an "underpants Gnome".  It was sad to watch.  (But why would Oswald deprive Zsasz of some fun with Sophia, and turn her over to a hack like The Dentist.  I'm sure Zsasz would have appreciated "playing" with her, and he has no "buttons" to push.)

[Kathemy]

Doux Reviews: Things That Go Boom

[Gulftastic]

The Riddler is back! I am happy.

[Danielg342]

Quote

@Kathemy We're supposed to believe that Sofia actually wanted to be captured. How could she possibly foresee Oswald handing her over to "the Dentist" for torture with no supervision - as if he would deny himself the luxury of watching - instead of just stabbing her to death on the spot? 

I actually thought this too- Ozzie would solve all his problems right there if he (or Zsasz) just shot her right there.

More to the point- why doesn't Sofia have a security system in place? Oswald walked in too easily.

I mean, I'm glad Sofia is still around because I love Crystal Reed...but I will agree that sequence was stupid.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Danielg342

[Kostgard]

On 12/2/2017 at 4:32 PM, Danielg342 said:

What sold it for me is that, finally, Oswald played to Sofia's weakness. See, Sofia is a master manipulator because she has everything planned and knows- exactly- how to strike at people because she's studied them in great detail.

It's why she bested The Dentist- she knew everything about him and used it to allow him to let her go.

However, Sofia's fatal flaw is that she's not a quick thinker- and Oswald used that to his advantage.

Oswald knew that Sofia would use Martin against him, and perhaps thought that there was no way that he'd ever hurt Martin. So when he blew up the car, Sofia had no chips left, allowing Oswald to escape and reclaim his empire.

Good point about Sofia being good when she's got time to plan, but not so great at thinking on her feet - which is actually where Oswald shines. He can be easily played when he's not on full alert, and he tends to rest on his laurels when he gets to the top, but pull the rug out from under him and you've actually given him the advantage, because that dude knows how to pull a miracle out of his ass when the heat is on.  It seems Sofia will have a move up her sleeve next episode, but still - even if she succeeds in knocking him down, she just puts him in a position where he is more unpredictable. 

As for why don't people have security/just shoot people in the head...apparently that's a problem nearly everyone in Gotham has. The Sirens are apparently the only people who thought to install security cameras (and heck - Ra's set that place up for Babs, so maybe it took that non-Gothamite to figure that out). Oswald clearly has zero security - even after someone was able to melt Ed and sneak out with him. I mean, I know Selina is the future Catwoman and stealthily sneaking in and out of places is kinda her thing, but she almost literally stole Martin out from under Oswald's nose. I guess for Oswald you can chalk this up to hubris. Who knows why people continue to just waltz into the GCPD whenever they like. Or how Pyg can set up a crime scene in a fancy tent right outside their door and none of the cops notice. 

And yes - so many problems would be solved if people just shot others in the head. But no one in this town has ever liked to take the easy route. I mean, Sofia told Jim to just go arrest Oswald and Jim was all, "It's more complicated than that." Actually...it's not. I'm pretty sure Jim could easily find a reason to arrest Oswald. Did Jim even ask who stabbed that dude in the head in the previous episode? I'm pretty sure murder is still illegal. Even if Oswald has amazing lawyers that can get him out of any charge, arresting him would at least put him out of commission for a little while But...why take the logical route, right?

[jhlipton]

4 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

@Kathemy:

Quote

We're supposed to believe that Sofia actually wanted to be captured. How could she possibly foresee Oswald handing her over to "the Dentist" for torture with no supervision - as if he would deny himself the luxury of watching - instead of just stabbing her to death on the spot?

Ozzie would solve all his problems right there if he (or Zsasz) just shot her right there.

As I said up-thread, the most in-character thing for Penguin to do would be to give her to his loyal henchman to torture to deth, while Penguin  watched and offered critique.  There was no reason (other than network squeamishness, and that the showrunners needed Sophia alive) for them not to do something.

[Danielg342]

46 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

There was no reason (other than network squeamishness, and that the showrunners needed Sophia alive)

I would say that's more the reason, as much as I hate network TV for refusing to torture women (with men being fair game). You could easily solve the squeamish issue by simply not showing the torture and just implying what will happen.

1 hour ago, Kostgard said:

Good point about Sofia being good when she's got time to plan, but not so great at thinking on her feet - which is actually where Oswald shines.

She's very much like her father in that regard- Carmine wasn't always the greatest when he had to think quickly, and it cost him his empire. Carmine too had a predictability that made him easy to play, and I think it's something where Sofia has shown improvement- she's hardly predictable.

I think this is something the show is trying to portray- that if you're a predictable, calculating person, you're not going to succeed in Gotham. You need to be a quick thinker and someone who constantly keeps their foes on their toes, because Gotham can be so random that you need to be prepared for anything.

[paigow]

On 12/1/2017 at 1:03 PM, icemiser69 said:

Her teeth look so much worse.

Her shirtless fashion choice distracts me from her bad teeth & hair......

Does Gotham City still have money to fluoridate the drinking water? 

Edited December 4, 2017 by paigow

[Danielg342]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Does Gotham City still have money to fluoridate the drinking water? 

Does Gotham City still have money to treat the drinking water? 

[Kathemy]

8 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

Does Gotham City still have money to treat the drinking water? 

They probably don't even have money to prevent the next cholera outbreak.

[jhlipton]

On 12/3/2017 at 7:53 PM, Danielg342 said:

I would say that's more the reason, as much as I hate network TV for refusing to torture women (with men being fair game). You could easily solve the squeamish issue by simply not showing the torture and just implying what will happen.

Yep, just have Zsasz drag Sophia off, grinning with delight and Penguin says "Wait for me!"  Cut to her limp in a chair or whatever.

13 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

Does Gotham City still have money to treat the drinking water? 

FLINT has better drinking water!

[paigow]

The Batcave has cleaner water despite containing metric tonnes of guano,,,,

[Danielg342]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

FLINT has better drinking water!

[jhlipton]

My very first Internet!  I'm going to love it and hug it and squeeze it...

[Snookums]

Quote

The Batcave has cleaner water despite containing metric tonnes of guano,,,,

What's the Batcave? Nobody in Gotham including Bruce and Alfred have so much has mentioned it in months! The only person around who seems to miss it is Lucious  "luscious" Fox, who entire body appears to be a Heavy Sigh in human form every time they wheel him out for his two minutes of Science Exposition. 

 

So, despite some truly heroic efforts by the cast (and there was some major heavy lifting here) to package and sell this three day old fish of an episode, I've got to agree with you, Kathemy. This was much ado about nothing, strutting and fretting its hour upon the stage [fill in more appropriate Shakespeare here.]

Before I get into the duck duck duck GOOSE that was the latest chapter of the Sophia/Penguin battle, I have got to call time on the Jim Gordon: Giving A Sea Sponge A Run For Its Money In The Idiot Olympics here. It must be fucking killing Ben McKenzie to have to play this pinhead because Gordon, more than anyone else due to the rotten luck of having to be the straight man of Gotham's flamboyant New Years In Rio drag act, never learns anything, ever.

I truly believe he's a good actor, or at least better than he's been allowed to be on this show. When he was playing Clayface he had a grand old time and did a good job, and there have been fleeting moments when he's allowed to actually react to the ongoing insanity that is his life (He got close when he was mocking Lazlo and saying you're old news, bud. This is freakin' Gotham, for God's sake; what, is this your first day here?) But for the most part his only job seems to be trundling back and forth between being a gigantic hypocrite and and being an even bigger idiot.

For instance, when Sophia shows up to tell him to organize his "army" of cops (...let's let that one go, time's a wastin') and go get Penguin? Okay, that was stupid on about fifty different levels on Sophia's part, but when she had to exasperatedly remind him, again, that she's being the gangster he specifically came to find for the express purpose of wiping out Oswald you could hear the exhaustion in her voice--it's like dealing with a goldfish! Jim apparently has both no memory and no ability to grasp that he is the sum of his choices; there's a giant Reset Button where his brain should be.

But having outlined this, I do have to take Sophia in hand and ask her to please just consider the idea that the plans you make are going to clash with reality? Like, maybe not think that some guy you macked on twice, who keeps turning you down and trying to put you on a train to get you out of there, isn't the safe bet you thought he was, army-of-cops wise? If she's so damn good at studying and detailing people she should grasp by now that Jim Gordon takes what he wants as long as he can pretend it was somebody else's idea and he's got no choice. (If this was her play, I think cutting that sex scene they filmed was a mistake: because if they'd done the deed at least she wouldn't look as stupid as she did for thinking Jim was at her beck and call. As it stood it was like, girl, you kissed a couple of times! Maybe you can expect a phone call or a movie at that point, not toppling a rival crime gang.)

UGGGGHHHH ANYWAY the whole back 'n forth of "who's playing who?" was, I think, supposed to be climaxing in this episode but instead it felt more like "just fake it, it's late." I did gasp aloud when Penguin blew up the car--after all, this show has killed children without compunction before--and if that had actually happened? It would have been a better choice. Not because I'm super into murdered kids but because Penguin's entire strength is his "cornered rat" rage and how it  allows him to do shit nobody else would. But of course this was like fooseball, as usual: mad spinning of the flippers and no real action.

[jhlipton]

20 hours ago, Snookums said:

Jim Gordon: Giving A Sea Sponge A Run For Its Money In The Idiot Olympics here.

I see what you did there, Squidward!

[mccartygirl]

On 12/1/2017 at 6:05 PM, tennisgurl said:

Zsasz just takes such joy in his job. He must be an absolute delight of an employee. If he doesn't have reason to murder you, of course. 

 

I squealed like a girl when I saw Zsasz. I was so happy he's back! 

[Ailianna]

On 12/1/2017 at 0:39 AM, Kostgard said:

He honestly thought it would be cool to just leave Pyg with the oldest guard in Arkham instead of a team of very buff, very smart guards? Jim? You continue to be the worst. 

It's actually not Jim's job to work  out the guard schedules at Arkham.

On 12/1/2017 at 6:05 PM, tennisgurl said:

I love how each gang seems to coordinate costumes in Gotham. Oh Gotham, your the most Extra city that has ever existed. 

Zsasz just takes such joy in his job. He must be an absolute delight of an employee. If he doesn't have reason to murder you, of course. 

I actually really like this season. All of the characters are getting good stories, we have some interesting character interactions, and we have a creepy, kick ass villain. Plus, its hitting a good mix of being stylized, and having an actual story and characters to get invested in. Its weird and sometimes nonsense, but its interesting nonsense. 

 

On 12/1/2017 at 6:09 PM, Chaos Theory said:

I think this is the best description I have ever seen of the show.    At its best Gotham is the fun and interesting and quite entertaining  nonsense.   I am not sure you can really ask for more then that.    

That's what I love about Gotham--it's just pure chaos with a loose plot wrapped around the crazy.  I don't watch it to figure out who people will grown into comic counterparts (which i'm not really that familiar with anyway) or for a deep, coherent drama. I watch it for the absolute zany breathless ride it is, and for the beautiful cinematography, of course.  But mostly for the bat-shit crazy that is Gotham.

[John Potts]

While I liked Sofia being all cool under pressure and twice convincing people who had her in their clutches that they should work with her rather than against her, shouldn't she have at least one bodyguard? It's Gotham, people get abducted and served up in pies just walking down the street!

On ‎01‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 2:31 AM, Lantern7 said:

On many levels, I knew Martin wasn't dead, but the explosion was a "WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?!?!" moment, wasn't it? I mean, Oswald has a heart, but blowing up his protege was within his M.O.

It actually got me - I thought it was his Keyser Soze moment. In retrospect, I should have realised it was a fake out, but I was fooled at the time.

On ‎01‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 2:31 AM, Lantern7 said:

And then Oswald had Zsasz blow up Barbara's HQ with a rocket launcher.

Lucky for our sirens that it was one of those considerate rockets that blows stuff up but leaves character unharmed!

On ‎01‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 3:08 AM, thuganomics85 said:

in unsurprising news, Professor Pyg has already escaped Arkham Asylum, because that place has the worst security ever outside of GCPD.

When Gordon ordered an extra guard put on Pyg, I'm surprised he didn't add, "...but make sure it's one of those extra stupid guards!"

On ‎03‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 10:24 PM, Danielg342 said:

Ozzie would solve all his problems right there if he (or Zsasz) just shot her right there.

But he's a supervillain! He can't Just Shoot Her!

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎01‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 3:51 AM, nilyank said:

I don’t know, I just want Selina away from Babs. Tabitha is fine but I don’t  want see Selina gunrunning, kidnapping and threatening a child’s life. Selina is suppose to be a theif and I would like to see her develop cat burglar skills.

And is Selina ever going to Bruce while he is spiraling and like a billionaire brat? I think the last meaningful scene that they had together was on the roof together before Alfred interrupted them.

I love Penguin throwing in Sofia’s face that his parents loved him unconditionally while Falcone doesn’t for her.

I knew Martin was safe and I am glad that I was right.

Actually I love the 3 of them together, I'd like to explore it more although yes, Selina seems to be involved in some pretty dark stuff. 

 

7 hours ago, John Potts said:

 

Lucky for our sirens that it was one of those considerate rockets that blows stuff up but leaves character unharmed!

 

Actually the RPG 7 is an armour piercing weapon, a building just won't blow up because you fire one in so this is quite accurate. 

1. No Harvey, no Ivy, no, Bruce, no Alfred, hope we see more of them soon.

2. Quite love the Ed/Lee dynamic, she sees Ed as a separate entity to The Riddler, I was almost sorry to see him return at the end. Expected to see the Sirens hook up with Lee as her muscle but no. 

3. They put mass murderer Pyg in with the general population? Well TIG

4. Poor Harper, stabbed last week and knocked out this week.

5. Love the subtle shift in Sofia when Penguin finally uncovers her treachery, she doesn't have to pretend any more. Love the scene where we see Penguin goad Sofia, she's so calm and in controlled but when he reminds her his parents loved him unconditionally whilst she's trying to earn daddy's approval she just cracks a little.   

6. Love Victor's "she's on the phone" line, I used to hate him but now he's one of my favourite characters.

7. I guess we have no DNA to identify Pyg with in the Gothamverse? 

8. Interesting reaction from the Sirens to Martine, Tabby is creeped out by him whilst Barbara likes him when we expected the reverse. A little disturbed at how much Selina is getting involved in all this kidnap and murder? Even if she's not pulling the trigger herself.     

9. Okay let's have a big hand for the writers with their Keyser Soze, we were all shocked, even the Sirens couldn't believe it. You always wonder how far Gotham would push it, cannibalism, strong hints of incest between Theo/Tabitha and Tetch/Alice, (the former seemingly consensual, the latter definitely not), Dr Bashir killing the museum keepers grandson, matricide/patricide from Barbara and Jerome, did we really believe Penguin would do it? 

[Joe Hellandback]

One thing I noticed when rewatching, when Penguin makes his speech to Martine Victor does his 'cry me a river' gesture but Tabitha looks genuinely moved. But then we see her adopt a couple of little sisters through the series. 

[Camera One]

Selena is really going down an immoral path by hanging out with Tabitha and Barbara.  But I have enjoyed watching these three together this season.  

I liked this episode more than the last two, though Jim, Penguin, Sofia and Barbara constantly one-upping (more like one-downing) one another over and over again is like watching a wheel spinning around endlessly.

Surprisingly, I probably enjoyed Lee and Ed the most in this episode.  That's the only case where it was actually easy to root for someone.