S03.E08: Crisis On Earth-X (4)

[phoenics]

Just now, WindofChange said:

The problem was 1) Timing. There wasn't enough time in the episode considering the wedding scene was only 2 minutes long. 2) We're talking about respect and whether or not people are being rude. No Iris/Barry didn't ask Oliver to marry them during the funeral, but instead of waiting for another day and leaving that day to honor Stein they didn't. They made it about them. How is that not rude/disrespectful? Not only that but considering Iris was afraid of bad juju (404 I think?) it also makes no sense why she'd be ok with marrying Barry in funeral clothing. 

I don't agree that they needed to wait another day in order not to be "rude".

The proper equivalence for me to what Felicity did would have been for Iris to have yelled out "Marry us now reverend!" right as Jax was giving his eulogy or as Stein's wife was shoveling dirt onto the coffin.  That's a more valid equivalence in my view.  Barry and Iris walking away down to the harbor where they first kissed and telling Olicity that they would go find a JoP (they didn't even say they'd do it that day) was very respectful. Again - it was Felicity who suggested they do it now.

[WindofChange]

Just now, phoenics said:

I don't agree that they needed to wait another day in order not to be "rude".

Then we should agree to disagree because I found that to be quite distasteful especially considering this man sacrificed his life for them... But I let it go because I get couples who are madly in love and just went through a traumatic experience don't want to wait. They just want to take the leap. 

Stein likely would've wanted them to live their lives to the fullest and not wait... Just as how Iris/Barry want their friends to be happy and be there for each other's special days.

[phoenics]

3 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Iris said that they already had the ceremony so they just wanted to quickly exchange vows and rings, don't bother coming back Kara.  They had the big reception, the toast by their father the church and flowers and puffy dresses and all their friends attending.  Apparently Iris considers that their special moment since they turned down Kara returning for the finish in favour of getting it done quickly to have it done.

There is nothing within the show that suggests that Barry and Iris found Felicity rude and objected to sharing the finalization of their wedding with their friends, and things (e.g. smiling) that suggests they were happy to have Oliver and Felicity join in.

Through all the crossovers including the mini-ones, Barry has asked Oliver for help and advice and training and Oliver has come through, sometimes at cost to himself.  He's been a damn good friend to Barry.

And then there was the crossover in two years ago (Flash s2, Arrow s4) when Barry told Oliver that Felicity broke up with him because he had a son (not true) and it cause the whole mess that led to Felicity breaking her engagement to Oliver because Oliver acted on what Barry had told him.  Come to think of it Oliver and Felicity might have been married for almost two years now if Barry hadn't interfered.  Yeah, Barry owes him.

I tend to forgive things like that that are honest mistakes and not examples of people just being rude.  Also - Ollie warned Barry away from Iris in S1 of The flash.  Plenty of that to go around.

But if we really want to come at Barry - we should come at him for the time travel stuff.  That was the most egregious.

But none of that is really the point.  Olicity was rude.  End of story for me.  I don't need to litigate anything else to try to absolve Olicity of blame.  This isn't a tit for tat situation.

[Kromm]

50 minutes ago, WindofChange said:

I just find it hilarious how there is apparently a proper procedure and code of conduct for an impromptu ceremony where everyone is in funeral clothes (as they had just come back from a funeral of a man who sacrificed himself to save all of them) and are next to a pile of vomit in the park...

I never got this memo!

I find it even funnier that even though people probably are right that in some absolute real world sense this behavior might be unacceptable, this is both TV and a comic book. Plot expediency is important to both of those mediums, and this is both in one.  Also, moving on from imperfections and not letting little problems drag down the entire product is important too. This crossover was shockingly excellent enough that as annoying as this one detail is, it IS just one detail.  So much else was right with these four episodes that this is a tiny thing in comparison.  

[Mellowyellow]

They didn't stand in the Pride and Prejudice pose (side by side) but I got such P&P feels from that wedding! Especially with the kisses and Diggle at the end. I was worried about camera angles in the spoilers but the way that was filmed totally worked for me! 

SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE WE SURVIVED S5 AND OLICITY GOT MARRIED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited November 29, 2017 by Mellowyellow

[InsertWordHere]

1 minute ago, phoenics said:

But if we really want to come at Barry - we should come at him for the time travel stuff.  That was the most egregious.

I just realized that Diggle officiated the ceremony of the man who caused his baby to be erased from existence and replaced with another. Heh. I don't suppose that's covered in the wedding etiquette handbook. I suppose he's a better choice than the man who officiated Digg's wedding to Lyla, who was probably off in 1776 by then or whenever because time travel. 

[WindofChange]

1 minute ago, phoenics said:

Better writers could have made it happen.  I'm sure there were two minutes elsewhere they could have used for this.

What I find hilarious is that people want more time allotted for Olicity/Westallen on an LoT episode where LoT fans want more time allotted to their characters/Stein's funeral. I can see why they didn't cut out any other part just to make the weddings longer considering this isn't an episode of Arrow or Flash. 

Anyways I guess I'll just let the double standard slide then. We have reached an impasse.

[phoenics]

1 minute ago, InsertWordHere said:

I just realized that Diggle officiated the ceremony of the man who caused his baby to be erased from existence and replaced with another. Heh. I don't suppose that's covered in the wedding etiquette handbook. I suppose he's a better choice than the man who officiated Digg's wedding to Lyla, who was probably off in 1776 by then or whenever because time travel. 

Well - Dig already pretty much cussed Barry out last year when all of that came out.  He forgave him then apparently.  

Just now, WindofChange said:

What I find hilarious is that people want more time allotted for Olicity/Westallen on an LoT episode where LoT fans want more time allotted to their characters/Stein's funeral. I can see why they didn't cut out any other part just to make the weddings longer considering this isn't an episode of Arrow or Flash. 

Anyways I guess I'll just let the double standard slide then. We have reached an impasse.

I don't see a double standard on my part because I don't buy your premise.  But we have reached an impasse.  One solution for better writers would have been not to do a double wedding in the first place.  I actually would have been okay with WA waiting and letting Olicity have that whole moment to themselves.

19 minutes ago, Kromm said:

Worth every penny they spent on this crossover. That big battle was really well executed. It LOOKED like a big scale battle from the comic books.

The only thing I missed was that we didn't get to see Amara (sp?) use her powers - with the special effects.  I wanted to see her charge through a pile of Nazis as an elephant or something.  I guess they spent up too much to do that?

[meowmeow]

Just now, phoenics said:

Well - Dig already pretty much cussed Barry out last year when all of that came out.  He forgave him then apparently.  

And westallen wasn't mad about sharing the 2 minute ceremony! So it all works out!

[wingster55]

WA were pretty shocked and not too happen...a bit upset. (Watch their faces when Oliver and Felicity are talking to each other)

Seems to me that they put on a smile wanting to just get it over with.

 

I honestly don't get why it's so inexplicable to some that Felicity's interruption would get people upset. Why can't you (general you) to seem swallow that?

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, phoenics said:

It's part of a self absorbed pattern with Olicity in the crossover - in my opinion.  I don't mind if you don't share it.  :)

And I guess that's a matter of perspective. Did you think Alex and Sara were self absorbed for getting plastered and making out at the actual venue?

[InsertWordHere]

Just now, phoenics said:

Well - Dig already pretty much cussed Barry out last year when all of that came out.  He forgave him then apparently.  

I wasn't implying that he hadn't. I just thought it was a neat little tidbit that I hadn't realized until you mentioned Barry's unfortunate mistake(s). Speaking of the black best friend trope that was discussed earlier, it would seem to not only apply to Iris (and Barry!?) but also to Diggle who was quietly minding his own business (and icing his injured arm which Barry did not even ask about) before being carted along to another city without being asked beforehand. Rude. 

[wingster55]

3 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

I wasn't implying that he hadn't. I just thought it was a neat little tidbit that I hadn't realized until you mentioned Barry's unfortunate mistake(s). Speaking of the black best friend trope that was discussed earlier, it would seem to not only apply to Iris (and Barry!?) but also to Diggle who was quietly minding his own business (and icing his injured arm which Barry did not even ask about) before being carted along to another city without being asked beforehand. Rude. 

Yes, that was rude.

Just like Felicity's interruption. Bringing up other rude things doesn't make hers any less selfish and thoughtless. 

Quote

And I guess that's a matter of perspective. Did you think Alex and Sara were self absorbed for getting plastered and making out at the actual venue?

For me...no. They got a bit drunk but didn't cause any scenes, had their makeout outside, and nobody even knew about it except Kara...and maybe Mick. 

Edited November 29, 2017 by wingster55

[phoenics]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And I guess that's a matter of perspective.

Yep.

7 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Again, the episode needs to fit into 42 minutes. The writers set up Olicity wanting/not wanting to get married in the first hour of the crossover, they have to resolve it by the end. This wasn't a real wedding that had all the time in the world, so they rushed to put it in the end. Because it's a TV show.,

I don't think they needed to resolve that in the crossover with them getting married.  I think they could have resolved it differently.  The Flash - if that was really Dawn Allen - set up a major plot point and didn't touch it the rest of the crossover.

Frankly - I would have thought it would have meant more to Arrow fans to have Olicity get married on Arrow.  That's also why I wouldn't have minded if WA had waited too.  I wasn't a fan of the double wedding from jump and my instincts were right - since it was kind of a hot mess.  I didn't get to savor the WA kiss - it got occluded by Olicity's kiss.  Just not what I would have preferred.

And now I'm concerned WA aren't married at all since they didn't say "I do".

Edited November 29, 2017 by phoenics

[Chaser]

I understand not being a fan of how it went down but creating this narrative that Olicity (Felicity) is the villain of the crossover is ludicrous.

[InsertWordHere]

6 minutes ago, wingster55 said:

Yes, that was rude.

Just like Felicity's interruption. Bringing up other rude things doesn't make hers any less selfish and thoughtless. 

Good point. Which is why I haven't defended Felicity, although I generally like her despite the occasional rudeness. I also feel that the characters of Oliver and Felicity deserve better than to have their wedding shoehorned onto another couple's but them's the breaks. Not sure what there is to really argue about, this could have been handled better for both couples. That said, I'm also not a big lavish wedding person, so I am kind of glad they got to be eachother's witnesses and that Diggle got to see his shipper dreams get fulfilled. 

I was more pointing out how Diggle has suffered in a way for knowing Barry, and the situational irony involved.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Yep.

Since you replied to only part of my comment, I'm thinking maybe you though the question I asked about Sara and Alex's behavior at the dinner was  rhetorical. It wasn't. I am genuinely curious if you think they were being self absorbed.

[phoenics]

15 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Again, the episode needs to fit into 42 minutes. The writers set up Olicity wanting/not wanting to get married in the first hour of the crossover, they have to resolve it by the end. This wasn't a real wedding that had all the time in the world, so they rushed to put it in the end. Because it's a TV show.

What's hilarious are people acting like Felicity ruined their actual real life weddings.

As a fan of the show, I identify with the characters - no need to create a narrative that I'm acting like someone ruined my real wedding.  Besides - none of that absolves Fe and Ollie for rude behavior.

9 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I understand not being a fan of how it went down but creating this narrative that Olicity (Felicity) is the villain of the crossover is ludicrous.

No one ever said that.  We are just pointing out the rude behavior.  

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Since you replied to only part of my comment, I'm thinking maybe you though the question I asked about Sara and Alex's behavior at the dinner was  rhetorical. It wasn't. I am genuinely curious if you think they were being self absorbed.

I didn't answer because their drunken behavior doesn't absolve Oliver and Felicity and it obscures the point I was actually making in favor of the same strawman argument people have been trying to insert in my mouth.  Again - it wasn't just ONE dumb act that I'm upset about - it was how they portrayed Oliver and Felicity throughout the crossover.

It's also about how the writers meant the crossover to be something they would use Iris/Barry to prop up Olicity - and never show reciprocity back.  I don't watch Arrow anymore.  I left because of Olicity.  I was warming up to Felicity again with her Iris team up too.  I actually originally let the RD mess pass at first, until tonight with the double wedding.  Then I got madder and madder as I thought about how Olicity didn't ask Barry/Iris about how they felt about their wedding being ruined - every convo was about Olicity and what they felt.

But - I've said this multiple times - so no need to repeat it again.  The argument has really gotten circular amongst us, imo.

Edited November 29, 2017 by phoenics

[InsertWordHere]

2 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Besides - none of that absolves Fe and Ollie for rude behavior.

To paraphrase Oliver in one of my favorite scenes of the entire crossover: Don't call him that!*  Now that was a fun exchange. It involved Oliver uptightness, Snart snark, a callback to the long road Sarah and Oliver have traveled, and a little bit of Captain Canary. It was really great. More please. 

*Or do, it's cool, and I'm not uptight Oliver. 

[Whodunnit]

Considering the pre-existing wedding plans, I don't understand why Iris and Barry getting married when they did was rude.

Or to put it another way, my grandmother just died, should I have avoided Thanksgiving dinner out of fear of being rude?

[phoenics]

11 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

To paraphrase Oliver in one of my favorite scenes of the entire crossover: Don't call him that!*  Now that was a fun exchange. It involved Oliver uptightness, Snart snark, a callback to the long road Sarah and Oliver have traveled, and a little bit of Captain Canary. It was really great. More please. 

*Or do, it's cool, and I'm not uptight Oliver. 

Sorry! Ya'll coming at me fast and furious - I'm taking typing short cuts, lol.  I think in one post I called him "Ol".  LOL.

Edited November 29, 2017 by phoenics

[BkWurm1]

Does anyone remember the episode on The Flash just this year where Iris bumped into the people carrying the casket of the dead guy down the church aisle and physically climbed up on the altar and faced his picture around on the stand to block his face herself before the bereaved ever left the church because she was so eager to be married and just felt at that moment she couldn't wait another second?  Iris actually interrupted and rushed people out of her way at the end of a strangers funeral. She didn't even let Barry know WHY he was supposed to show up.   People do crazy things sometimes without it meaning they are horrid, selfish people. 

Felicity suddenly in a flash of insight realized she wanted to be a part of this too, wanted what she'd been so terrified just the day before and wanted to give it to Oliver, what he so very badly wanted and I'd say needed.  And in that moment of revelation, she blurted out what was inside without I'm sure worrying at the time what it might seem like to other people.  And then a second later she was aware enough to ask if it was ok and it was because these are her friends that know her and love her and understand what it is like to have feelings overwhelm ettiqute.  

Would some people call it rude?  Who cares? The people involved aren't and I am certainly not suffering remorse that I ship a pair so in love and desperate to commit and be with each other and make the other happy in a crossover event that heavily featured their love story they that twice acted impulsively and from their heart without a hint of malice. 

O/F are crime-fighting vigilantes.  No one has made claims that O/F are the Emily Post of the Superhero world.  But then no one on any of these shows is and thank goodness because how boring would that be? 

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Does anyone remember the episode on The Flash just this year where Iris bumped into the people carrying the casket of the dead guy down the church aisle and physically climbed up on the altar and faced his picture around on the stand to block his face herself before the bereaved ever left the church because she was so eager to be married and just felt at that moment she couldn't wait another second?  Iris actually interrupted and rushed people out of her way at the end of a strangers funeral. She didn't even let Barry know WHY he was supposed to show up.   People do crazy things sometimes without it meaning they are horrid, selfish people. 

Oh wow. I don't watch every episode of the Flash but that is WILD. Poor Iris. That's kind of pathetic!

I will say that in this episode I loved that Iris and Felicity helped save the day together and then got married side by side to the men they love. That was pretty nice IMO

[phoenics]

37 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

I wasn't implying that he hadn't. I just thought it was a neat little tidbit that I hadn't realized until you mentioned Barry's unfortunate mistake(s). Speaking of the black best friend trope that was discussed earlier, it would seem to not only apply to Iris (and Barry!?) but also to Diggle who was quietly minding his own business (and icing his injured arm which Barry did not even ask about) before being carted along to another city without being asked beforehand. Rude. 

Well Diggle has been the literal black sidekick to Ollie this whole time.  When Barry routinely treats Dig that way throughout a series of episodes, then I think we can go there.  Using Dig as an example of the black sidekick and the main NOT be Ollie but Barry for one thing Barry did is very thin.  It's also missing the point.

You are misunderstanding the trope I'm pointing out in the first place.  The trope isn't just being dragged out of mothballs to service the white character in one scene - it's being deprived of your own PoV over a period of time.  In all 4 episodes of the crossover, B/I's PoV was stifled in favor of them supporting Olicity.  And their wedding turned out to be far less about them than pushing Olicity.  I didn't like that.  It reminded me of when The Flash had Iris' mom come back from the dead.  You'd think that story would be largely about her, but it wasn't.  We barely got her PoV.  Same when she was fated to be killed last season.  Everyone else got most of the focus - Iris was a sidekick to a story that should have featured her far more prominently.  That same kind of marginalization happened to both Barry and Iris tonight and last night, imo.

[Mellowyellow]

The back rub was in it!!!!! I was dubious as to whether we'd get the back rub due to the angles of the pap pics but it was awesome that we did!!!!!

Then I was suspicious because I didn't know if it was Olicity or SA and EBR messing around bts because we didn't get the butt grab but I'm so please the back rubbing was legit!

Squeeeeeeeeeeeee

[phoenics]

18 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Does anyone remember the episode on The Flash just this year where Iris bumped into the people carrying the casket of the dead guy down the church aisle and physically climbed up on the altar and faced his picture around on the stand to block his face herself before the bereaved ever left the church because she was so eager to be married and just felt at that moment she couldn't wait another second?  Iris actually interrupted and rushed people out of her way at the end of a strangers funeral. She didn't even let Barry know WHY he was supposed to show up.   People do crazy things sometimes without it meaning they are horrid, selfish people. 

Felicity suddenly in a flash of insight realized she wanted to be a part of this too, wanted what she'd been so terrified just the day before and wanted to give it to Oliver, what he so very badly wanted and I'd say needed.  And in that moment of revelation, she blurted out what was inside without I'm sure worrying at the time what it might seem like to other people.  And then a second later she was aware enough to ask if it was ok and it was because these are her friends that know her and love her and understand what it is like to have feelings overwhelm ettiqute.  

Would some people call it rude?  Who cares? The people involved aren't and I am certainly not suffering remorse that I ship a pair so in love and desperate to commit and be with each other and make the other happy in a crossover event that heavily featured their love story they that twice acted impulsively and from their heart without a hint of malice. 

O/F are crime-fighting vigilantes.  No one has made claims that O/F are the Emily Post of the Superhero world.  But then no one on any of these shows is and thank goodness because how boring would that be? 

Iris had one moment of crazy in one episode.  And it was meant to be hilarious and funny - but the Flash narrative clearly showed that Iris' behavior was off and kinda nuts - the show didn't try to play it off as perfectly fine.  Barry looked aghast and made apologies to the people in the funeral - as well as to the priest.

Oliver and Felicity had poor behavior regarding Iris and Barry for all 4 episodes of the crossover - Barry and Iris were used as tools to prop Olicity up.  I hated it.  Period.  The narrative presented this as though there was NOTHING wrong with it - contrasting how the narrative played out for Barry/Iris in that funeral scene.

That's the difference.  That's what I and several others have been arguing this whole time.  The Flash narrative didn't try to absolve or excuse away poor behavior - it called it out in a funny way.  These crossovers didn't do that - it played it straight for the most part.

This is reminding me of an experience in the Arrow forums when discussing Olicity - I'll bow out now.  Have all the W's.  

Edited November 29, 2017 by phoenics

[catrox14]

41 minutes ago, phoenics said:

And now I'm concerned WA aren't married at all since they didn't say "I do".

Isn't it getting the marriage license and signing it what makes them legally married?

[phoenics]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Isn't it getting the marriage license and signing it what makes them legally married?

I'm thinking more about that caterer who told Barry to make sure he said "I do".  It was in part 1.

[Trini]

1 hour ago, WindofChange said:

The problem was 1) Timing. There wasn't enough time in the episode considering the wedding scene was only 2 minutes long. 2) We're talking about respect and whether or not people are being rude. No Iris/Barry didn't ask Oliver to marry them during the funeral, but instead of waiting for another day and leaving that day to honor Stein they didn't. They made it about them. How is that not rude/disrespectful? Not only that but considering Iris was afraid of bad juju (404 I think?) it also makes no sense why she'd be ok with marrying Barry in funeral clothing. 

Timing? It's a TV show that has editors. The scene could have been as long or short as they wanted. Both couples could have had a couple minutes for their own ceremony/vows. And even could have kissed at the same time still -- but they chose not to do that.

I've never heard of clothes you wear to a funeral becoming unlucky.

 

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

And then there was the crossover  two years ago (Flash s2, Arrow s4) when Barry told Oliver that Felicity broke up with him because he had a son (not true) and it caused the whole mess that led to Felicity breaking her engagement to Oliver because Oliver acted believing what Barry had told him and lied to her.  Come to think of it Oliver and Felicity might have been married for almost two years by now if Barry hadn't interfered.  Yeah, Barry owes him.

That's not what happened, and even if it did, Barry is responsible for Oliver's dishonesty now?? Not touching that.
 

1 hour ago, WindofChange said:

Stein likely would've wanted them to live their lives to the fullest and not wait... Just as how Iris/Barry want their friends to be happy and be there for each other's special days.

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I will say that in this episode I loved that Iris and Felicity helped save the day together and then got married side by side to the men they love. That was pretty nice IMO

They could have still gotten married side-by-side without the interruption. (Like, wait literally 30 more seconds, Felicity) That would have been more tolerable.

WHO'S IDEA WAS THIS? I NEED NAMES PEOPLE.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Trini

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I'm thinking more about that caterer who told Barry to make sure he said "I do".  It was in part 1.

If that was their daughter, the "I do" won't prevent them from reproducing. If that's Dawn she should be more worried about Barry fucking up the timeline again and maybe erasing her from existence.

[phoenics]

Just now, catrox14 said:

If that was their daughter, the "I do" won't prevent them from reproducing. If that's Dawn she should be more worried about Barry fucking up the timeline again and maybe erasing her from existence.

It just feels like it wasn't a throwaway line - so this is me just trying to figure it out.  I had thought we might see her in one of the episodes tonight - especially part 4, but nope.  

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Trini said:

Timing? It's a TV show that has editors. The scene could have been as long or short as they wanted. Both couples could have had a couple minutes for their own ceremony/vows. And even could have kissed at the same time still -- but they chose not to do that.

I think they did kiss at the same time following Diggle pronouncing them husband and wife, which hilariously almost makes it seem like they are all married to each other. Yay, Polyamory!

Just now, phoenics said:

It just feels like it wasn't a throwaway line - so this is me just trying to figure it out.  I had thought we might see her in one of the episodes tonight - especially part 4, but nope.  

It probably wasn't a throwaway line but it might be a red herring too.

[Trini]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think they did kiss at the same time following Diggle pronouncing them husband and wife, which hilariously almost makes it seem like they are all married to each other. Yay, Polyamory!

They're ALMOST a foursome, but they haven't taken that one last step. COME ON! ?

[lemotomato]

10 minutes ago, Trini said:

I've never heard of clothes you wear to a funeral becoming unlucky.

In Chinese culture, definitely. Change and shower right after getting home from a funeral to avoid bringing bad luck and spreading it all through your house.

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Really, Barry and Oliver's reactions to finding themselves against their enemy says everything you need to know about them:

Barry: I cant kill him! I dont know what it will do! Thats not who I am!

Oliver: My enemy is screaming in horror at his wife blowing up. Perfect time to shoot him in the back!

3

It was a great moment, one I loved all the more for Oliver waiting (with his arrow ready) not just for OliverX to face him, but for the final reason to kill him.  OliverX not only turns around saying he's going to kill him, but reaches for his arrow and THAT is the moment Oliver shoots him in the heart.  Oliver didn't hesitate to deliver the kill shot, but even though OliverX was the leader of a whole Nazi planet, he did give the dude a chance to surrender.  He didn't, Oliver shot him.  It was a done deal.  But it was so very measured and controlled.  Hey, I'm not kidding myself, Oliver wanted him dead, but he also let OliverX determine when he would die all on his own.  Legally, you could have even called it self-defense.  I like that extra layer on Oliver's very grey heroic shoulders.  

3 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Gotta love the rest of the Legends arriving. "Why aren't you cutting into Supergirl?" "I'm trying! Something is blocking me!" "Hi there! Oh my God! Reverse Flash?!? Didn't we take care of you last season?" And Zari got an official outfit!

And I love the reason for her outfit was just, Hey, I guess everyone else it dressing up, lol.  

 

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

I'm not calling Barry black.  I'm comparing his treatment to a common trope that is usually applied to black female characters on shows.  And that's valid.  

And the crossover was clearly billed as a huge Westallen event - hence the poster.  But that's not really my main issue.  I just hate seeing characters that should be allowed to express their PoV being relegated to props.

I've said my peace about the ratings - Flash is still the highest rated.  That's why the crossovers are frustrating - they tend to detract from The Flash and prop the other shows - to The Flash's detriment.

I enjoyed most of the cross over, except the parts I mentioned.

The poster IMO showed it was not a crossover centered around WA, just that their wedding would be the reason for all the heroes to gather.  The interrupted wedding is a very classic trope.  The wedding after the first hour was mostly a means to an end.  The invasion wasn't even about them. It was about Supergirl.  But their love wasn't ignored.  In addition to people repeatedly praising their love and relationship, WA did express their PoV's to each other.  We knew how happy they were about the wedding, how bummed they were about the interruption and that they weren't off on their honeymoon sipping fruity drinks. They expressed that to each other which I'd vastly prefer over to someone else, but that makes showing a scene like that between say Iris and Felicity redundant.  There's really no reason to assume Iris and Felicity didn't talk about that stuff.  I mean, Iris DID talk to Felicity about her worries about Barry and then Felicity shared hers with Iris.  And that was in a really stressful moment.  I'm sure they had some earlier downtime off screen earlier where the bland conversation on how much it must suck to get the wedding interrupted happened.  But that wasn't important to the narrative. 

 WA's relationship was already set up as "perfect" for the crossover.  They didn't get the most attention because of that, because "perfect" is not as interesting as "still perfecting" but that's not because of some kind of sad tv trope, it's because of them being the most stable couple at this point.  The crossover did get to pretty much start with them and it also ended in part with them, but yeah, they were never the main story let alone the only one being told.  They were just the main catalyst for bringing everyone together.   

 

 

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

 

And again - I think it's poor writing to have Barry and Iris be okay with that - but that's only a small issue.  They were still - as characters - used by the writers to prop up another couple and not given any of that same courtesy back.  They gave Iris and Barry almost no PoV for most of the crossover concerning their aborted wedding - and instead had Olicity make everything about them.  I found it distasteful and it made me not want to watch them anymore.  I had begun to warm back up to it after the Iris/Fe team up, but this quickly soured it for me.

 

 

 

  

Personally, I found it interesting when Joe turned what was supposed to be a toast about his children getting married into a story about himself and his journey to find love again.  I was laughing how much he made it about himself.  But that's pretty typical writing for a lot of Flash characters.  

2 hours ago, SevenStars said:

Which is why people don't get marry in the middle of it. Which is why people wait until it is done to get marry or do whatever, like Barry and Iris respectful did. They didn't even announced their intention to do so to anyone and most of those people who were in the funeral only came for their weddings. Instead they were quietly going to do it with only themsleves. They just wanted to end the day as husband and wife like they planned. 

Nitpick. I don't think what they said to Kara indicated they were planning to get married that day.  I mean, you usually have to make an appointment to see a JoP.   They seemed to me like they were saying they'd get to it soon enough, but at the very least way more than a day had passed at this point.  

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

Yep.

I don't think they needed to resolve that in the crossover with them getting married.  I think they could have resolved it differently.  The Flash - if that was really Dawn Allen - set up a major plot point and didn't touch it the rest of the crossover.

Frankly - I would have thought it would have meant more to Arrow fans to have Olicity get married on Arrow.  That's also why I wouldn't have minded if WA had waited too.  I wasn't a fan of the double wedding from jump and my instincts were right - since it was kind of a hot mess.  I didn't get to savor the WA kiss - it got occluded by Olicity's kiss.  Just not what I would have preferred.

And now I'm concerned WA aren't married at all since they didn't say "I do".

Well, Oliver said it twice even though no one asked him to, lol.  Maybe that's part of the funny story they tell their kid.  

1 hour ago, Chaser said:

I understand not being a fan of how it went down but creating this narrative that Olicity (Felicity) is the villain of the crossover is ludicrous.

Over on Reddit I've seen many saying she was worse than the Nazis because of her spontaneous interruption.  The lack of proportion to their response is both hilarious and highly disturbing, lol.  

Edited November 29, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Trini]

Us after this crossover:

[Trini]

5 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Personally, I found it interesting when Joe turned what was supposed to be a toast about his children getting married into a story about himself and his journey to find love again.  I was laughing how much he made it about himself.  But that's pretty typical writing for a lot of Flash characters.  

Did he? Joe circled it back to Barry & Iris. He was using himself as an example of how their love was inspiring.

[Wishing Well]

So...yeah.  My loser Legends.

 

1. It's no surprise that the last episode made the best use of the 483957 people there, mixing and matching groups, making sure everyone got focus...this is where the LOT writers always shine.

 

2. ATTENTION PRISONERS.  GREAT NEWS!  THE CALVARY HAS ARRIVED!

 

3. I KNEW I COULD COUNT ON YOU PRETTY DID YOU BRING BEERS.  Poor Mick, having to go through this whole debacle without his Haircut friend or Pretty Pal.  Even Sara and Firestorm took off without him. He just missed his buddies. 

 

4. Kara warned Thawne that her cousin would come for her AND HE DID SUPERMAN HE CAME 

 

5. Whatever "girl power" or #feminism the Arrow and Flash writers were attempting got stomped to the trash the second Amaya and Zari showed up.  Queens.

 

and as a viewer of all four shows, but first and foremost an LOT fan, I thought it fitting that Flash ended VERY grim, and they had literally no hope until the Legends stormed their way into Star Labs.  That's when everything turned and the heroes started winning again.  My baes.

[lemotomato]

I just watched the impromptu wedding scene again, and it was such a beautiful way to end the crossover, affirming life and love after fighting  villains that were the antithesis of both, The scenery was pretty, the WA vows were heartfelt, the spontaneous joy of Oliver and Felicity finally being on the same page about what they wanted was lovely. I choose to focus on the positives about that scene and what we got-- our OTPs are finally married!! OMG!!--  instead of lingering on disappointments. 

Edited November 29, 2017 by lemotomato

[Wishing Well]

Should also mention that they should all be thanking the good lord that the Legends showed up on a good day.  If they had handled it like they handled PT Barnum's mess, it could've swung entirely in a different direction.

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

Well Diggle has been the literal black sidekick to Ollie this whole time.  When Barry routinely treats Dig that way throughout a series of episodes, then I think we can go there.  Using Dig as an example of the black sidekick and the main NOT be Ollie but Barry for one thing Barry did is very thin.  It's also missing the point.

You are misunderstanding the trope I'm pointing out in the first place.  The trope isn't just being dragged out of mothballs to service the white character in one scene - it's being deprived of your own PoV over a period of time.  In all 4 episodes of the crossover, B/I's PoV was stifled in favor of them supporting Olicity.  And their wedding turned out to be far less about them than pushing Olicity.  I didn't like that.  It reminded me of when The Flash had Iris' mom come back from the dead.  You'd think that story would be largely about her, but it wasn't.  We barely got her PoV.  Same when she was fated to be killed last season.  Everyone else got most of the focus - Iris was a sidekick to a story that should have featured her far more prominently.  That same kind of marginalization happened to both Barry and Iris tonight and last night, imo.

There is no debate that Iris gets treated like crap frequently on The Flash.  But so does Caitlin.  I just disagree with the reason why it's so hard to get her POV on the show.  I'm pretty convinced it's because all the women on the show are used as props for the guys.  I'm REALLY hoping for changes behind the scenes and really hoping those changes might mean better chances for focus on Iris and her PoV.  Felicity often suffers from this as well, not as much as Iris and Caitlin let alone poor Jesse, but yeah, it's a problem.  Which is why I was THRILLED she got any PoV in the crossover because without it, it would have been a lot harder to understand why she was afraid of marriage and changing the status of their relationship.  Iris on the other hand, didn't need to express a POV about Nazis interrupting her wedding beyond her "Are you kidding me!" when it happened.  Still, they did give her and Barry a moment to be together and regret the complication but at the same time, show that it wasn't going to bring them that down.  

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

Iris had one moment of crazy in one episode.  And it was meant to be hilarious and funny - but the Flash narrative clearly showed that Iris' behavior was off and kinda nuts - the show didn't try to play it off as perfectly fine.  Barry looked aghast and made apologies to the people in the funeral - as well as to the priest.

Oliver and Felicity had poor behavior regarding Iris and Barry for all 4 episodes of the crossover - Barry and Iris were used as tools to prop Olicity up.  I hated it.  Period.  The narrative presented this as though there was NOTHING wrong with it - contrasting how the narrative played out for Barry/Iris in that funeral scene.

That's the difference.  That's what I and several others have been arguing this whole time.  The Flash narrative didn't try to absolve or excuse away poor behavior - it called it out in a funny way.  These crossovers didn't do that - it played it straight for the most part.

This is reminding me of an experience in the Arrow forums when discussing Olicity - I'll bow out now.  Have all the W's.  

Oliver and Felicity had one slip up during the RD and both looked horrified and embarrassed and were shown still brooding about the fallout the next day.  I disagree that there was anything poor in their behavior toward Barry and Iris at all during the 2 and 3rd hour.  Oliver even gushed about their love for each other in the 2nd hour and Iris is the one that pushed Felicity to talk.  And that leaves just one final moment when Felicity was overcome by feelings that prompted her to act oddly.   But like how Barry understood once Iris explained her odd behavior and NEED to get married, everyone involved in the impromptu 2nd wedding also understood when Felicity explained.  Barry never asked Iris to apologize to him or scolded her for her behavior.  He made excuses to strangers but Felicity wasn't with strangers.  She was with dear loved ones.  

42 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

The difference between that scene and this wedding was that in the earlier scene where Iris crashed a funeral to try to Bogart her wedding, Iris was depicted as a crazed jerk for trying to do that. The pastor looks at her askance and Barry admonishes her. The show depicted her desperation, but Iris was explicitly portrayed as being in the wrong. Here, no one says shit to Felicity. It's not the same thing.

that they weren't, which did why only Mick and Kara find out about their one night stand.

1

My bigger point was that the actions came from a similar emotion so already we know that Iris and Barry totally get it.  But yes, there was a big difference between Iris's actions and Felicity's and why Iris had to address what she did versus people giving Felicity a pass.   Iris's actions were completely thought out and preplanned and spanned a considerable period of time.  She didn't just get a wild idea in her head.  She bought a dress, got ready, called Barry, scoped out the venue to make sure the pastor was there, waited through a FUNERAL, had Barry show up totally confused, bumped into multiple strangers, clambered around in her dress on stage and still never paused to consider if her behavior was off.   

Felicity had a spontaneous idea that burst out of her followed immediately by a realization others were involved, hence asking if it was ok even if it was too late, lol, at that point to ask.  And as you pointed out, everyone was very confused at first, but then they understood and everything was fine. 

No one on the show is judging her or holding a grudge and everyone on the show has made far bigger fools of themselves and committed far more callous faux pas.  Its impossible for me to work myself up to outrage on their behalfs when they wouldn't IMO share even a speck of the same feeling.    

Edited November 29, 2017 by BkWurm1

[BkWurm1]

29 minutes ago, Trini said:

Did he? Joe circled it back to Barry & Iris. He was using himself as an example of how their love was inspiring.

And instead of talking about their love and examples of it, he talked about how he'd grown and changed in regards to love. Didn't even give specific examples of when or what aspects of their love encouraged him. He made it about himself.  It was a nice way of doing it, but he made his happiness and new love the story, instead of telling stories about Iris and Barry's love.  

16 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I just watched the impromptu wedding scene again, and it was such a beautiful way to end the crossover, affirming life and love after fighting  villains that were the antithesis of both, The scenery was pretty, the WA vows were heartfelt, the spontaneous joy of Oliver and Felicity finally being on the same page about what they wanted was lovely. I really wish fans could have focused on the positives about that scene and what we got-- our OTPs are finally married!! OMG!!--  instead of lingering on disappointments. But oh well. 

I loved how the sun came out after the funeral and saying goodbye to Kara and Alex.  Obviously they probably waited for it but it was a drizzly day, there couldn't have been any promise of them getting the sun they wanted but they did and it really did make for a very pretty ending.  

[Winston Wolfe]

7 hours ago, Jacks-Son said:

I'll take Snart, with his ham acting over Mick. He just growls and drinks beers and shoves food in his piehole.

Mick's kinda like a food-a-holic Wolverine without the charm, lol.  Or the talent.

[Sakura12]

Who's FeFe? I never heard anyone called that on any of the shows?

I thought the double wedding was funny because it looked like all four of them married each other. I hope they are happy in their poly relationship. 

The way the Flash treats it's female characters is why it'll never be a top show for me. They are used to prop the men. They also managed to add a dudebro character that's worse than Nate. Congratulations Flash. 

Even though my Legends got shafted again on their own show for couples on two other shows. I'm glad they got to be the rescue team. They might screw up time but they are fully formed team that knows how to work together and be awesome. 

I can't wait to see Mick hanging around extra good Leo Snart. 

Edited November 29, 2017 by Sakura12

[Grace19]

I've seen olicity fans on twitter that were happy with the double wedding but still agreed that Felicity could have waited a few seconds for Barry and iris to finish before interrupting. I'm surprised that olicity fans here can't even admit that the timing was wrong. I can still love a character and still admit when they are wrong, I love Barry, but I still roast him more than anyone on team flash.

Iris and Barry were used as plot device on this cross over, I'm used to Iris being treated this way, but was surprised that Barry would be sidelined on the flash part of the crossover. I guess that's what marriage is about, you share both the good and the ugly. Infact all team flash were sidelined, especially Wally and Cisco.

The cross over was good, loved the iris/Felicity team up. i really have to start watching legends, the show looks fun. Supergirl and Arrow just don't do it for me.

[Proteus]

So does Jax still have powers?

Steins death wrecked me.

Disappointed that we didn't get more Mick/Killer Frost.

I enjoyed Sara and Alex and how it was resolved.

I already love Leo.

I liked seeing three of my fave Arrowverse women; Zari, Amaya, & Killer Frost, fighting together.

I wish the Legends were allowed to react to Thawne being alive.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Proteus

[SevenStars]

4 hours ago, Chaser said:

I understand not being a fan of how it went down but creating this narrative that Olicity (Felicity) is the villain of the crossover is ludicrous.

Really, this is how you interpet people's post who had a problem with when Felicity interrupted Iris/Barry????  That one scene??

Wow, no one is saying that Felicity was the villain of the crossover, not even close, at least not as far as I have read. All some people, including me, are saying is that we didn't like that Felicity interrupted when Diggle was about to make Iris/Barry official, after the kiss. That the writers could/should have made the transition to Olicity getting marry at the same time better. In that moment I thought Felicity was rude af, but never claimed she was a villain. 

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Does anyone remember the episode on The Flash just this year where Iris bumped into the people carrying the casket of the dead guy down the church aisle and physically climbed up on the altar and faced his picture around on the stand to block his face herself before the bereaved ever left the church because she was so eager to be married and just felt at that moment she couldn't wait another second?  Iris actually interrupted and rushed people out of her way at the end of a strangers funeral. She didn't even let Barry know WHY he was supposed to show up.   People do crazy things sometimes without it meaning they are horrid, selfish people. 

 

And despite understanding why Iris behaved that way, people called her out on it, including her fans and Westallen fans. We understood why she was rude af and desperate but we didn't defend her behavior and just agree that it was rude and disrespectful af on her part, kept it moving. Even if she had done it as an impulse, it would still be rude and disrespectful af, and I would have still called her out on it. 

Edited November 29, 2017 by SevenStars

[Guest]

I think a lot of people are missing the point with the double wedding tbh. In an ideal world, both couples deserved their own moments on their own shows. But this is DCTV. And clearly they wanted to parallel the moment from the first crossover where Oliver told Barry that "Guys like us don't get the girl" by both getting their girls. I can totally picture MG and AK in the writers room being like "Oh, we're SO clever!"

And I think Felicity was clearly so overwhelmed and moved by the moment that she got carried away. I don't think that makes her trash, like some have called her. Although, let's be honest, some people would still hate on her even if she had waited for Diggle to announce them as man and wife. 

I have to say, all this outrage over Felicity interrupting a wedding that technically had already happened given that the vows were complete but no outrage over the Nazi stuff is very enlightening, IMO. A little perspective would be nice to see.

[Trisha]

36 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Who's FeFe? I never heard anyone called that on any of the shows

It's what some people call Felicity (usually as an insult). I've only ever seen it used on Reddit; surprised to see it here.

I was bummed when I saw that Felicity would be interrupting the WA wedding - not because I think it's rude but because I knew people would be so pressed about it. 

[cambridgeguy]

23 minutes ago, Proteus said:

So does Jax still have powers?

He's not supposed to but if they really want to they can hand wave an explanation for why he gets them back.  That, or he can always take Stein's formula and become Sticky-Man although this might actually be the universe treating him like a joke.  You lose your father figure and swap an awesome powerset for one of the stupidest abilities possible?

The truth is Firestorm was too powerful to have around.  There were far too many situations where they had to have Jax present without Stein because otherwise he could have solved the problem almost instantly.    That and the bean counters are probably happy about not having to pay for the flaming man effects.