S03.E09: The Doldrums

[Athena]

Quote

Claire and Jamie leave Scotland, sailing to the West Indies on an urgent quest. But when the superstitious crew looks for someone to blame after a string of bad luck, rescue comes from an unlikely source.

Reminder: The is the book talk thread. This can include spoilers for ALL the books. If you wish to remain unspoiled for any of the books, please leave now and head to the No Book Talk episode thread.

[GHScorpiosRule]

And they’re BACK! ??

And what I mean by that is Jamie and Claire being back in sync! The small moments of intimacy.

I could have done without having to “see” Jamie being seasick.???

But I’m glad the show hasn’t forgotten that, though they really glossed over it at the end of season one.

And I have to hand it to the actress who plays Marsali-she’s got the bitchy attitude toward Claire down pat. She reminded me of how much I disliked buik!Marsali until she was set straight and gave Claire the respect she deserves. Can’t wait for her to start calling her “Mother Claire.”?

It was great to see Yi Tien Cho! I was wondering if we would and if we’d see the acupuncture.  And we did! Though I could barely make out the needles on Jamie’s face.

Not an episode that I think I’ll rewatch as much, except for the Jamie and Claire moments and Fergus.

I liked how they explained how Claire’s Paris dresses are still around.

I think a good portion of the episode just focusing on the sailors could have been cut, but Ron Moore wants his pirates*, so no point in cribbing aboot it.

Did I mention how much I loved the small moments with Jamie and Claire? How he was afraid to tell her about the acupuncture because he didn't want to hurt her feelings? And how she told him whatever they needed to work on, her love for him was never in doubt or question?

Me: SIIIIIGH!!!!

Boo! to no Wee Ian!

Next week looks good.

*Aye, they be sailors, but Moore can’t stop talking about how excited he is to be able to do this part and use the ? from Black Sails.? Hence my faux pas in calling the men pirates in my original posting.

Edited November 13, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[toolazy]

Okay, I loved it.  It went on a little bit too much about superstitious sailors but it hit all of the notes I think were necessary.  Claire, for once, wasn't whiny or petulant.  And I loved that Willoughby saved the day. 

And I loved the new opening credits!  No more mowed-down Highlanders and all kinds of things that I can't wait to see in the next four episodes.

[Quickbeam]

Lots of ground covered. I loved how young the actor was playing the acting captain on the British ship....felt valid given the number of superiors who had died. Sweet bits with Jamie and Claire. I also like take charge Dr. Claire. 

[Dust Bunny]

Can Shannon Gross write every other episode?

Most important: Hello, Book Jamie and Book Claire! That was perfect. This is the on-the-same-level, tag-team I've been waiting for. Woo hoo!

I adored everything about this episode. The credits were great, and Bear's music was sublime. Marsali has always been one of my favorite characters, and I love how Lauren Lyle is playing her.

Special kudos to Gary Young. His Yi Tien Cho is brilliant. And shout-out to Ping An!

I have to assume more than one person crafted this plot. "A story told is a life lived." Cue Claire's voiceover. We finally have payoff of Claire's narration to us the viewers. That was perfect.

Loved the sailors' song, especially since I've been conditioned from beer commercials to say "dilly dilly!" in celebration.

Elias Pound is so precious. :(

This exemplifies how a simple episode can be superb - focus on the character moments and let the actors shine.

Dilly dilly!

Edited November 12, 2017 by Dust Bunny

[toolazy]

17 minutes ago, Dust Bunny said:

Can Shannon Gross write every other episode?

 

No shit!  

[FnkyChkn34]

 Loved almost everything - could have done without all of the vomiting. We'd get the point without all the visuals and sound effects...

"What's a eunuch?" "... I'll tell you later..." :-D

38 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I think a good portion of the episode just focusing on the pirates could have been cut, but Ron Moore wants his pirates, so no point in cribbing aboot it.

(What pirates? Do you mean the sailors?)

And I have a question: Is the "whatever it is between them" just sex? That seems to be the implication from the writers. 

[Cloudberryjam]

3 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

And I have a question: Is the "whatever it is between them" just sex? That seems to be the implication from the writers. 

I think they mean to say a passionate love...something so strong and undefinable that they can't put it into words...but it would help if the writers gave us a moment or two like "what IS it between us? what IS this power? etc etc. especially since events in the books imply that there is some supernatural element (the visions, the time travel, the ghost, the dreams, etc etc) to their meeting/life together...

Other thoughts:

Liked it generally

"King of Men!!"

I hate Marsali she is not good enough for our Fergus and she needs proactiv

Love the jaunty straw hats

our hero Willoughby!!!

the Porpoise scenes were my favorite, the young captain, so perfect. Again, casting and costumes are two of the strongest departments in this production imo

[Cloudberryjam]

one more tiny thing: when Claire tells Jamie man had flown to the forking* MOON

how is he not freaking out???? how is his reaction just oooh honey thats nice mmmm you smell good lalala 

 

 

*thank you "the Good Place" writing staff

[LoveLeigh]

Who was the (young person) Claire saw come though the door on the British ship that she looked like she recognized? 

Edited November 12, 2017 by DakotaLavender

[theschnauzers]

Claire had already established with Jamie about events after the mid-18th century, and don’t forget that Jamie had a 18th century university education before the events in Outlander and there are a couple of novellas about that, and Jamie told Claire about that at the deserted Kirk in season 1, as well. So I think he’s quite capable of getting the general gist of it — hence Claire’s explanation of Brianna in the photographs, and Claire’s referencing to photographs in this episode.

I loved the carribean twist on the main theme and the update of the images in the opening credits. I am curious to see what happens next season with that. ;)

I was a big fan of Black Sails, and it is clear from the In The World comments, and the closing credits heavy use was made of the experience of the South African crew and production staff for these episodes. I am glad I wasn’t the only one who were thinking of that when season one was filmed when it was announced Black Sails would film its final season: this couldn’t have worked any better. 

I was glad they snuck in a scene with Jared Fraser at the port: I gather the port wasn’t in France but in Scotland, and they did manage to explain how Claire and Jamie has their clothes from Paris.

This was a well adapted episode from this part of Voyager, and yes, they hit the key points of that part. Overall, I, too, am quite pleased with it.

[Dust Bunny]

1 hour ago, DakotaLavender said:

Who was the (young person) Claire saw come though the door on the British ship that she looked like she recognized? 

That was Elias Pound. I don’t think Claire recognized him; I think she was taken aback to see someone that young. With so many of the older and more experienced crew dead or ill, it’s the youth who have to become leaders beyond their years.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Dust Bunny

[Petunia846]

Thumbs up from me.

Agree with comments regarding good casting. The boy, Elias Pound, looked even younger than "Wee" Ian. Hence Claire's shock.

Several good quiet moments with Jamie and Claire, which was lovely (especially now that they're going to be separated for awhile). When people complain about lack of intimacy, these are the kinds of scenes they're missing (the moon discussion and the cuddles in the hold), not the wild crazy sex stuff. Also, I agree with Jamie, Claire's hair looks much better with the gray in it.

As someone who knows very little about boats, this was always one of the hardest parts of the books to read, because I had no good context for what the setting looked like, despite all of Diana's description. I just don't *know* boats, so reading through I'd always be rotating between different archetypal images of ships in my head, but not really sure if the time period or size was right. So, if for no other reason*, I enjoyed this episode because I liked seeing Outlander play out on (what I assume is) the right kind of ships, and now when I reread I'll have better images in my head.  (*but there were indeed many other reasons to like the episode)

[ihartcoffee]

Willoughby's speech was so beautiful!  I was so moved.  Loved him doing acupuncture on Jamie. 

I just knew they'd take off with Claire,  having not read in some year's I'm not as up on the plot.  

[WatchrTina]

I cheered when the Caribbean beat kicked in under the theme song and the new credit images appeared.  Called it!

Now I have to go watch again.  With all the puking this isn't likely to be my favorite episode but parts of it were excellent.

[Haleth]

25 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I cheered when the Caribbean beat kicked in under the theme song and the new credit images appeared.  Called it!

I  haven't watched yet (delaying gratification) but I also joked that they should use a reggae version of the theme.  Glad to hear they did use a Caribbean beat!

Break out the pina coladas!

Edited November 12, 2017 by Haleth

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

 

Now I have to go watch again.  With all the puking this isn't likely to be my favorite episode but parts of it were excellent.

I've rewatched it, and must fast forward those parts. So gross. 

8 hours ago, Cloudberryjam said:

I think they mean to say a passionate love...something so strong and undefinable that they can't put it into words...but it would help if the writers gave us a moment or two like "what IS it between us? what IS this power? etc etc. especially since events in the books imply that there is some supernatural element (the visions, the time travel, the ghost, the dreams, etc etc) to their meeting/life together...

Sorry, I guess I was being facetious. I know what it's *supposed* to be, but the writers aren't conveying it well when they add the dialogue only after sexy time and not during any other intimate scene. 

 

So another observation: Hayes says he's been on a boat twice, first when he was sold into indentured servitude and the second when he returned home. So he's done... Where's Murtagh?

[leighdear]

Finally, an entire episode where we didn't have to see Claire's nipples even once.  Dilly Dilly!

I thought the Willoughby explanation went on a little too long, but the payoff was well done.  Very enjoyable, and I love Marsali. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

9 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

but the writers aren't conveying it well when they add the dialogue only after sexy time and not during any other intimate scene.

I see your point and agree, but the first time they had this conversation was when they were alone away from Dougal, Willie, Rupert, Angus and Ned, on that hilltop. And they were holding and caressing each other’s hand. I’d call that an intimate scene.?

 

8 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

What pirates? Do you mean the sailors?

Aye, the sailors. ? Fixed!

[nodorothyparker]

Despite all the puking from all corners in this one, it was still a much more coherent episode than the last several have been.  It kind of confirms a theory I've had for awhile now that this show, often like its source material, is at it's best when it's not trying to hype up its BIG. ICONIC. MOMENTS. and just focuses on telling a good story.  Even with all the sailors and their billion superstitions eating so much time, this was a pretty good story that capitalized beautifully on the Black Sails connection and reminded me again how much I miss that show now that it's done.

I like the actress playing Marsali and think she's doing a lot with the material she's been given.  At this point in the story, she has no reason to think well of Claire, who as she said basically dropped in out of the clear blue sky and broke up whatever respectable arrangement her mother had with her stepfather.  I know the show was supposed to have aged the character up to 18 to get around the squickiness of a 15-year-old girl running off with a 30ish Fergus, and the actress looks fine in pictures, but she seemed made up to look even older than that onscreen.  I am a little disappointed the show skipped her and Claire's hilariously awkward birth control talk where she became the first person outside of Jamie to whom Claire ever revealed Brianna's existence because in the book it seemed that was the moment where Marsali stopped seeing her just as the woman who'd wronged her mother and as a person whose history also mattered in this.

Willoughby/Yi Tien Cho's stalling with his story to buy them time for the wind to pick up was beautifully done.  I missed the book's handling of him and Claire tag teaming Jamie to convince him to let them try acupuncture, which had me rolling the first time I read it, but this reveal works too.  I've mostly just been thrilled to see how less offensively the character was rewritten for screen.  Everything preceding this with Jamie climbing the rigging was very Black Sails kind of piratey even if we know Captain Flint in Jamie's position would have told the guy to go ahead and jump and be quick about it.  

The Porpoise scenes were well handled in letting us see how desperate the situation was for them being reduced to officers who were little more than boys themselves and not going to the usual well of making the British evil for the sake of being evil in their essentially kidnapping Claire in the short term.  Watching Claire descend into the hell of the sick hold all I could think was good thing you just declared seemingly five minutes before that you were right to come back and belonged here, right Claire?

The very Caribbean inspired new theme is nice.  We're not in Scotland anymore indeed.

[BryroseA]

Bruh, I kind of love Marsali and that was...definitely not my reaction to her character in this part of the book, so good on that actress. 

I remember Willoughby’s speech, but not the book context (I’ve only read the second half of Voyager once as opposed to eleventy million re-reads of the first part). Did that scene go down the same way in the buik? Whit the whole “Jonah” incipient mutiny?

[GingerMarie]

I have been a nurse for 32 years and a mother for 30  and when my patients or my children would vomit so would I.  This was a painful episode for me.  But was enjoyable when I was not gagging.  Actually it was a great episode.  Sorry I know TMI.  PEACE

[Petunia846]

PS. They're trying so hard to make the two Ardsmuir guys the new Rupert and Angus (especially that first scene on the docks), and that's just never going to happen, so they should give it up. It just makes me sad and miss the old actors more. Give them a new dynamic, don't just go right back to the angry!guy/funny!guy pairing.

And I'll second the question up-thread (or maybe it was in the no book talk thread) that if this one guy has returned from being transported...where's Murtagh??? Can we not just get one line of explanation? (For ex... Claire: Wow, wait, you were transported and now you've returned? [turns to Jamie] I thought you said Murtagh was transported, why isn't he back too? Jamie: Oh, you know Murtagh, he couldn't keep his mouth shut, got himself in trouble, and ended up with another five years indenture as punishment. Claire: Oh, Murtagh, you rascal.)

[WatchrTina]

THE GOOD

That Caribbean beat under the opening credits and all the new images just made me squeee with joy.  Did you notice it kicks in right as Bear McCreary’s credit appears?

Jared!  Squeee!  I know we only ever saw him in one ep last season but I just love those little reminders of the larger world that Jamie inhabits -- that he does have friends and family who will come to his aid if they can.

Ooooh, well done writers.  I like the work-around they came up with for how Marsali gets on board without Jamie knowing AND how a trunk of Claire’s old clothes arrive as well.  The trunk having been in Marsali’s possession explains why it wasn’t just given to Claire at Lallybroch.  Marsali having already altered a few things to fit her will (I presume) explain that awful gown that Claire is wearing on the cover of Entertainment Weekly.  My heart bleeds for Terry Dresbach and her team at having had to re-imagine what that lovely gold Paris gown would look like after having sat in a chest for 20 year and then having been altered and “improved” by a short, 16-year-old, Highland lass.  I love the logic that of all the gowns in Claire’s box, the gold one is the one Marsali went to work on, leaving the plainer, Scottish-style ones alone so that Claire has something fresh to put on for her dinner with the Captain.  (But, alas, we still have no explanation for where Claire got the outfit she wore in the last episode for the scene with Ned.  I suppose we can fan-wank that Jenny gave her a new bodice. That might fit Claire, though all of Jenny’s skirts would be too short.)  Hey, did you notice that one of Claire’s skirts DID look too short on the ship?  We see it in the scene where Yi Tien Cho is doing calligraphy on the deck with sea water.  I guess we’re supposed to think she’s wearing a skirt that Marsali altered when we see that.  Or has she gathered it up in the front to allow her to climb the ship’s ladders? It’s not clear.  Actually, the more I think about it the more it makes sense that Marsali would tell Fergus to bring the trunk as bit of a peace-offering to Claire.  She’s still pissy and still calls Claire a “whoo-er” but perhaps (with Fergus’ guidance) she’s also smart enough to know that it’s probably a good idea to try to get on Claire’s good side.  Even more likely, perhaps it was Fergus who told her to bring the trunk.  He grew up in a brothel.  He knows women.  He would know that bringing Claire a gift of her old clothing would be appreciated (though how he would know she arrived in Edinburgh with naught but the dress on her back remains unclear – maybe Claire or Jamie made up a story about all her luggage being stolen?) Okay, I take it back.  Maybe this work-around wasn't thought through as thoroughly as it should have been.  Moving on . . .

J’adore the scene between Jamie and Fergus.  I love Fergus calling out Jamie on his bullshit (he knows Jamie fell in love with Claire in an instant) and I love Jamie doing the same to Fergus, calling him out on his bullshit of having told Marsali “everything” -- except about all his other women (though the irony of Jamie calling Fergus out on being honest with women on that particular topic is also not lost on me.)  I simply love finally seeing an intimate scene between Jamie and his adult foster-son.

I did love the Captain’s glee at quoting Shakespeare a second time to Claire, “There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so” and her eye-rolling response.  He is, of course, correct – at least when it comes to the matter of superstition.  That statement may actually be the over-arching theme of the whole second-half of the season.

I love the way Yi Tien Cho manipulates Jamie into trying the acupuncture by telling him his testicles will get twisted if he keeps retching.  Miserable, ailing, self-pitying Jamie is funny.  Miserable, ailing, suspicious Jamie (who we saw once before when Claire stabbed him in the arse with the penicillin) is a riot.

Oooh, there’s a wee call-out to the book.  Jamie is eating oatmeal so they can skip the whole the-crew-gets-dangerously-constipated sub-plot.

Sigh.  That night scene between Jamie and Claire at the bow of the boat when they are becalmed is completely unnecessary and totally lovely.  I do appreciate that the show keeps those moments in.

Sam Heughan, dressed as Jamie, crawling around in the rigging of that ship make my heart happy.  I can’t help but imagine how much fun he was having.  It actually took me out of the show a bit when I started ogling the set and thinking about how exciting it was for the cast & crew to relocate to South Africa and start working in this new environment.

Mr. Willoughby saving the day in that way was wonderful.  I’ve got more to say about it in the Book vs. Show thread.

I did love Jamie waxing poetic about Claire’s gray hair (I guess she used the semi-permanent dye that fades gradually rather than permanent dye that grows out awkwardly) and I love how much it reminded me of his talking about her hair on their wedding night, waxing poetic about the way it caught the light like “ripples in a burn.”

“I will not take my eyes off that ship until you return.”  Next scene: Jamie watching Claire row away, finger tapping.  I love the wee tapping finger. 

Good job by the writers makeing Claire’s instructions to the Captain (that he must make haste to land lest he run out of drinking water) an even more plausible reason for his taking off with Claire on board.  In the book he’s stressed out about getting back on schedule but I prefer his haste being in service to the need to try to save men’s lives.

Ooooh that drumbeat that kicks in over the closing credits.  Fantastic!

 

THE BAD

Oh FFS are they STILL having Claire voice reservations about coming back?  I thought we were done with that shite after the cliff-top scene but no, they went to the trouble of putting most of that scene in the “Previously-on” section so I guess the writers think it's very important to keep banging that drum.  Okay, I’ll accept that they reprised it one last time to lend sweetness to the conversation they have in the hold of the ship after having secret, desperate, ye-gads-this-is-uncomfortable-but-I-dinna-care sex.  But THEN can we be done with it?

I think that bit of exposition on the dock where Jamie and Claire address what Jenny and Ian do or do not yet know about wee Ian’s having been kidnapped was confusing.  I know the writers were trying to clarify that Jenny & Ian were already expecting Jamie to take wee Ian to France but when Jamie says “I’ve sent them a letter explaining everything” I would have liked to have seen a bit more dismay in his face.  Jamie seemed disconcertingly blasé about having notified his sister than her youngest child has been kidnapped.  Are we to understand that he’s lied to them about Ian’s whereabouts or that he told them the truth?  That exchange, and the way it was played, left me confused.

Jamie hiding the fact that Yi Tien Cho is using acupuncture to treat his seasickness is just silly.  Jamie hiding things from Claire at this point feels out of character.  I guess this is just another example of the TV writers trying to draw out the slow burn of their coming back together (all so they can rip them asunder in the last scene) but I think it rings false.  If anything, I think Jamie would have Claire watch the procedure, knowing she would find it fascinating.  (And now I think about it – her not learning how to perform the procedure may just end up being a problem downstream.  This is NOT the last time they get on a ship ye ken.)

WTF is Claire suggesting when she says “If you allow them to continue their infatuation it may just “fizzle out.”  There is only one thing that Fergus and Marsali want at this point and it’s to be allowed to consummate their union.  Jamie said earlier that their hand-fasting wasn’t binding if it wasn’t consummated.  If they ARE allowed to share a cabin then that’s it, they will be wed as far as they and Jamie are concerned.  In the book, Jamie won’t let them consummate their marriage until it is blessed by a priest.  I can’t figure out what TV Jamie and Claire are holding out for.  Marsali’s already said she’ll tell everyone the hand-fasting WAS consummated if they send her back and the story will be ten times worse if she tells that story having already traveled half-way across the world with Fergus.  Alas, I think I know what is going to happen.  But I’ll take to the Book-vs.-Show thread since it’s about future episodes.

That “King of Men” shout-out – I didn’t like it.  It was too much of a clear wink in our direction.

Wee error – when Gary Young (Yi Tien Cho) filmed his scene where he is looking at the bird it was clearly a windy day because strands of his wig are flying about.  In fact you see hair blowing quite a bit among the cast during his big speech.  That should not be possible on a becalmed day.

When Jamie asked “Are you here to press men?” the young captain replied “The last thing I need is more mouths to feed.”  This makes NO sense.  I understand that the writers wanted it to be clear that the risk of the crew being pressed was not an issue but that line was dumb.  With 80 men dead already they surely aren’t at risk of running out of supplies on the Man-‘O-War and having too many “mouths to feed.”  Besides, it removes one of the motivations of the captain of the Artemis for refusing to give chase.  If I recall correctly it’s strongly implied to him that unless he gives up his ship’s doctor willingly the captain of the Man-‘O-War will suddenly recollect a need to press additional men into service.

 

THE UGLY

Two items:

·      The ruthless superstitions of the crew, and

·      So. Much. Puking.

Do not.  I repeat, do NOT watch Claire’s initial walk though the “sick room” on a high definition iMac screen while wearing Bose headphones.  Just don’t.

Edited November 12, 2017 by WatchrTina

[nodorothyparker]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

I think that bit of exposition on the dock where Jamie and Claire address what Jenny and Ian do or do not yet know about wee Ian’s having been kidnapped was confusing.  I know the writers were trying to clarify that Jenny & Ian were already expecting Jamie to take wee Ian to France but when Jamie says “I’ve sent them a letter explaining everything” I would have liked to have seen a bit more dismay in his face.  Jamie seemed disconcertingly blasé about having notified his sister than her youngest child has been kidnapped.  Are we to understand that he’s lied to them about Ian’s whereabouts or that he told them the truth?  That exchange, and the way it was played, left me confused.

This is a fair observation.  Considering how much of the previous episode and their entire homecoming in the book is about Jenny rightfully calling out Jamie and Claire separately and together for the amount of drama and danger they seem to get into, Jamie mentioning that he'd sent her a quickie letter saying "Oh by the way, lost Ian to some unknown pirates.  Heading off to the West Indies now to see if he's there.  Don't wait up." felt seriously underplayed.  Maybe he's counting on Jenny being over it by the time they believe they'll be getting back with Ian safe and unharmed, but blasé feels like exactly the right word for his whole attitude about it knowing what a wild goose chase this whole thing has the potential to be.

 

Quote

WTF is Claire suggesting when she says “If you allow them to continue their infatuation it may just “fizzle out.”  There is only one thing that Fergus and Marsali want at this point and it’s to be allowed to consummate their union.  Jamie said earlier that their hand-fasting wasn’t binding if it wasn’t consummated.  If they ARE allowed to share a cabin then that’s it, they will be wed as far as they and Jamie are concerned.  In the book, Jamie won’t let them consummate their marriage until it is blessed by a priest.  I can’t figure out what TV Jamie and Claire are holding out for.  Marsali’s already said she’ll tell everyone the hand-fasting WAS consummated if they send her back and the story will be ten-time worse if she tells that story having already traveled half-way across the world with Fergus. 

This was a huge WTF for me too.  The fact that Fergus and Marsali have already stolen away from her home and onto a ship bound all the way to the West Indies with all the potential consequences that move brings suggest that they already have a pretty good idea that that they've passed the point of no return.  As Marsali says, she'll either return as married or ruined.  Having run away with a man, marriage is the only honorable path for her.  Book Jamie gets that and has to settle for making sure that she's at least married properly by a priest before letting them live openly as husband and wife.  But show Jamie and Claire too are acting like there's still a possibility that they'll all go back home when all this is over and live with no one being the wiser, I guess hoping that Marsali will be over her "infatuation" by then and not make good on her threat.  Even if they could somehow pull that off, Laoghaire is still going to be furious and months of local gossip about Marsali being gone and Laoghaire likely airing her grievances against Jamie for letting it happen will already have passed.  The damage is done.

[ferjy]

I also liked this episode. What a difference a good writer makes. I thought I'd miss Scotland and its gorgeous scenery but I didn't even think about it.

“I don’t know what a fizzle is.” lol Poor Jamie, constantly baffled by Claire's modern lingo.

I liked Claire in doctor mode. I've always liked the concept of her healing in an earlier century, with her advanced knowledge but limited resources. It's something I miss from the first season where she did a lot more healing.

[ferjy]

14 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

And I have a question: Is the "whatever it is between them" just sex? That seems to be the implication from the writers. 

This has always bothered me. Like having a good sex life is some kind of bond. It's obviously a lot more than that and I wish they'd portray it that way.

5 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I see your point and agree, but the first time they had this conversation was when they were alone away from Dougal, Willie, Rupert, Angus and Ned, on that hilltop. And they were holding and caressing each other’s hand. I’d call that an intimate scene.?

We need more scenes like that one.  More magical moments than just having sex.

[OftenPerplexed]

Is anyone else getting really annoyed by Sam Heughan's self-conscious acting?  The repeated squint-glances to the side and just below the camera are driving me nuts. Not to mention the strong inhaling pauses in the middle of sentences. He doesn't do any of that in live interviews - I don't know where he picked it up. The other actors are so much stronger in comparison that I can barely stand to look at him now. He seemed so much better early in the series. Someone please ask him to stop it!!!!

[GingerMarie]

N

2 minutes ago, OftenPerplexed said:

Is anyone else getting really annoyed by Sam Heughan's self-conscious acting?  The repeated squint-glances to the side and just below the camera are driving me nuts. Not to mention the strong inhaling pauses in the middle of sentences. He doesn't do any of that in live interviews - I don't know where he picked it up. The other actors are so much stronger in comparison that I can barely stand to look at him now. He seemed so much better early in the series. Someone please ask him to stop it!!!!

I feel this is a part of the character.  It started in the 2nd season when everything they did was pretty much secrets and lies.  And in the 3rd season self exiled himself, then went to prison then to Helwater and then a smuggler.  Much of his life is being discreet and in charge.  I don't see it as poor acting or him being self-conscious.  I believe this is how his directors and writers want to him play the character.  I see that changing as we move through season 3 and then on to season 4. PEACE

[morgan]

It’s funny, sometimes, even most of the time,  I think Sam is amazing.  And sometimes....not so much.  And yeah I wince a bit.

I thought this was a really good episode.  I’ve never been a huge fan of the ship portion of voyager but enjoyed it.  Thought the writer did an excellent job, glad to have a new strong writer in the mix.  Does she have any more ep’s this season?  Loved all the intimate moments we finally are getting with Jamie and Claire.   Love Dr Claire and omg I want Claire’s hat!  Her ship-wear is gorgeous.  

Love Yi Tien Cho and his story.  The actor is killing that role.  Well done to all involved bringing a controversial character to life.  

I speculated about there being new credits and am so happy to see they continue to shake them up.  Can’t wait to see season 4’s!!!!

Edited November 12, 2017 by morgan

[morgan]

4 hours ago, Petunia846 said:

PS. They're trying so hard to make the two Ardsmuir guys the new Rupert and Angus (especially that first scene on the docks), and that's just never going to happen, so they should give it up. It just makes me sad and miss the old actors more. Give them a new dynamic, don't just go right back to the angry!guy/funny!guy pairing.

And I'll second the question up-thread (or maybe it was in the no book talk thread) that if this one guy has returned from being transported...where's Murtagh??? Can we not just get one line of explanation? (For ex... Claire: Wow, wait, you were transported and now you've returned? [turns to Jamie] I thought you said Murtagh was transported, why isn't he back too? Jamie: Oh, you know Murtagh, he couldn't keep his mouth shut, got himself in trouble, and ended up with another five years indenture as punishment. Claire: Oh, Murtagh, you rascal.)

I may be wrong but I have assumed all along that we will find Murtaugh with Jocasta.  He knows her and after his indenture I assumed he would make his way there.  Not in the Duncan role necessarily but I’m sure there is some role on her land for him.  

[Petunia846]

Oh, sure. I assume they'll either wake up to him telling them they've washed up (after the shipwreck) in GA/SC or they'll run into him in Charleston, or who knows, maybe the actual Duncan will track him down and bring him to Fraser's Ridge like all the other Ardsmuir men who come to be Jamie's tenants. But so far we don't even know if Claire knows he's alive.

Sorry to harp on it. It just grates on my storytelling nerves when it could be so easily fixed with one or two lines.

[jmnf19]

27 minutes ago, OftenPerplexed said:

Is anyone else getting really annoyed by Sam Heughan's self-conscious acting?  The repeated squint-glances to the side and just below the camera are driving me nuts. Not to mention the strong inhaling pauses in the middle of sentences. He doesn't do any of that in live interviews - I don't know where he picked it up. The other actors are so much stronger in comparison that I can barely stand to look at him now. He seemed so much better early in the series. Someone please ask him to stop it!!!!

Definitely agree. I was never impressed with his acting, but this season it's more apparent. Some scenes are cringeworthy.

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, Petunia846 said:

Oh, sure. I assume they'll either wake up to him telling them they've washed up (after the shipwreck) in GA/SC or they'll run into him in Charleston, or who knows, maybe the actual Duncan will track him down and bring him to Fraser's Ridge like all the other Ardsmuir men who come to be Jamie's tenants. But so far we don't even know if Claire knows he's alive.

Sorry to harp on it. It just grates on my storytelling nerves when it could be so easily fixed with one or two lines.

I remember feeling this way when reading the book, but if they stick to the book, there should be some talk of Murtagh coming up. They'll have to change it because obviously he's not dead, but Jamie tells Claire what he remembers of Culloden while they're touring the West Indies. Maybe they'll talk about what happened to him after he was transported too?

Edited November 12, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[FnkyChkn34]

7 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I see your point and agree, but the first time they had this conversation was when they were alone away from Dougal, Willie, Rupert, Angus and Ned, on that hilltop. And they were holding and caressing each other’s hand. I’d call that an intimate scene.?

 Oh, I agree about the hilltop scene from season 1, but ... that was season 1. ;) I'm talking about now, in season 3. 

[GingerMarie]

57 minutes ago, morgan said:

I may be wrong but I have assumed all along that we will find Murtaugh with Jocasta.  He knows her and after his indenture I assumed he would make his way there.  Not in the Duncan role necessarily but I’m sure there is some role on her land for him.  

Did not think about that.  Great point.  

[Eureka]

I like the changes to the theme song. I think now they know we come to expect it halfway through the season.

[MadameKillerB]

I am so so glad that I read these threads *before* watching the episodes. I have emetophobia. I think I might give this one a miss.

[Eureka]

17 hours ago, Cloudberryjam said:

one more tiny thing: when Claire tells Jamie man had flown to the forking* MOON

how is he not freaking out???? how is his reaction just oooh honey thats nice mmmm you smell good lalala 

 

 

*thank you "the Good Place" writing staff

I think by now he is just used to her saying things he can’t imagine...but he may ask about it again later. I seem to remember that from the books, mostly in terms of vocabulary.

[GHScorpiosRule]

13 minutes ago, Eureka said:

I think by now he is just used to her saying things he can’t imagine...but he may ask about it again later. I seem to remember that from the books, mostly in terms of vocabulary.

As @theschnauzers posted up thread, Claire told Jamie all about the 20th century, the progress, industry, germs, inventions, transportation, while on the way to Lallybroch in “The Devil’s Mark.” Jamie is a smart and learned man. And I’m sure he didn’t think Claire was a loon or shocked that such a thing could happen. I found that scene along with the others of just the two of them, very touching and romantic. And I wilna lie-me tummy curled in vicarious pleasure when Jamie nuzzled and kissed Claire’s neck.

But that’s just me.

[unlfan03]

Definitely one of the grosser episodes between the puking and the "blazing shits" really gross. I think the new opening song will grow on me and if it doesn't well it is only for the five episodes. I do like how they have kept the good parts of Mr Wiloughby and have cut out the bad. Since they seem to have gotten rid of the bulk of the Fiend story line then his story needs more of a build up to keep him as a character. As a big fan of Black Sails I really liked seeing the tall ships as well.

So Jamie is getting hit with the parents' curse "May you have children just like you." Between Fergus, Marsali and Ian there are just parts of a stubbon smart Scot that you can see, he has had a hand raising all three (Marsali the least but still it is there). I thought that Marsali's chin jut is very much something I could picture from Jamie as a teenager, as is the rolling eyes. I hope we don't miss out on her conversation with Claire about birth control, I think this writing crew has shown that they are happy to move scenes around to suit the story. But that was when the two of them seemed to connect and their relationship never seemed as strained in the books after that.

One thing I noticed this time through was that the Captain Lenard called Claire Madame Fraser, that makes me wonder if they are going to keep Lord John away until they get to Jamaica, I always thought that the reveal of him on the ship only worked the first time through the book. And if it is known that she is Madame Fraser rather than Malcom then you would think that would peak Lord John's interest. On to next week where I'm guessing there will be no Captain Alessondro or Mamasita and to be honest I may be in the minority but I will miss them. (this show needed one or two more episodes this season or better editing to cut out the not so good parts and give us some of the more comical parts I'm just saying).

[WatchrTina]

7 minutes ago, unlfan03 said:

One thing I noticed this time through was that the Captain Lenard called Claire Madame Fraser, that makes me wonder if they are going to keep Lord John away until they get to Jamaica

Good grief I had forgotten that Lord John is a passenger on the plague ship in the book and yes, in the book he meets her as "Madam Malcolm."   Hmmmmm.  I supposed we can assume it would be like meeting someone named Mrs. Smith.  The last name may make you think of someone you once knew by that name but that's all.  Since John knows Jamie's wife is "gone" I suppose we can fan-wank that it never crosses his mind that this random British lady has anything to do with the Scottish Fraser he knows.

Edited November 13, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Scarlett45]

I have a question- why is Jaime so against Fergus and Marsali’s marriage? I understand in the books he wished for it to be blessed by a priest, but in show verse he’s against it and I don’t see why. Fergus is a grown man by modern standards and Marsali is over marriageable age with no indications she’s promised to someone else. They’ve been courting a few months and want to get married....this is a problem because?!! I can see Jaime NOT wanting Lagohaire to be a part of his family until the end of time but Claire just returned, he cannot expect Fergus and Marsali to change their plans because his wife (Claire) returned to the dead. 

Of course it wasn’t fair for Marsali to be such a bitch to Claire but I cannot be surprised by her behavior. Seems like life was good for them with Jaime as a stepfather, and her mother is angry and hurt, easy to blame Claire of her misfortune. 

Edited November 13, 2017 by Scarlett45

[morgan]

If I remember correctly, Fergus doesn’t have a “real” job, is a French son of a whore and wouldn’t be considered a good match by Laoghaire.  Jamie is shocked by the whole thing because he knew nothing about it before the ship and I think he knew what Loaghaire would think so rather than incur more of her wrath, and hurt her further, he feels like the match isn’t a good idea.  Marsali is also younger in the book.

Edited November 13, 2017 by morgan

[Scarlett45]

Just now, morgan said:

If I remember correctly, Fergus doesn’t have a “real” job, is a French son of a whore and wouldn’t be considered a good match by Laoghaire.  Jamie is shocked by the whole thing because he knew nothing about it before the ship and I think he knew what Loaghaire would think so rather than incur more of her wrath, and hurt her further, he feels like the match isn’t a good idea.  She is also younger in the book.

Oh I see. Fergus is a man of “leisure” who lives off of Jaime. Not a land owner or someone with a business....I could see Laghoaire wanting more stability for her daughter. 

[morgan]

Exactly.  I also think the whole thing being so sneaky just made Jamie uncomfortable too.  I would bet that had things been different, and they hadn’t had to leave Scotland, Jamie might have gone to bat for Fergus. But I am also betting it wouldn’t have done much good. 

[Squirrely]

I could have lived with less of the superstition crap to have time for the scene in Paris with Mother Hildegard and Faith's grave. That's one of my favorites in Voyager, so I was really bumming hard when I realized that wasn't happening. I also missed the ship's one legged cook whose name escapes me at the moment. He always livened things up!

Otherwise, I felt this was a pretty solid episode. I know they had to condense a LOT. I just don't get why they take away some awesome stories and replace them with things that aren't even in the books. :/

Edited November 13, 2017 by Squirrely

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

I have a question- why is Jaime so against Fergus and Marsali’s marriage? I understand in the books he wished for it to be blessed by a priest, but in show verse he’s against it and I don’t see why. Fergus is a grown man by modern standards and Marsali is over marriageable age with no indications she’s promised to someone else. They’ve been courting a few months and want to get married....this is a problem because?!! I can see Jaime NOT wanting Lagohaire to be a part of his family until the end of time but Claire just returned, he cannot expect Fergus and Marsali to change their plans because his wife (Claire) returned to the dead. 

Of course it wasn’t fair for Marsali to be such a bitch to Claire but I cannot be surprised by her behavior. Seems like life was good for them with Jaime as a stepfather, and her mother is angry and hurt, easy to blame Claire of her misfortune. 

 In addition to the other answers, I'll add that Fergus is about 32, and Marsali is 15 (in the books). I think Jamie also objects to the age difference. It's unclear how old she is in the show though. 

5 hours ago, OftenPerplexed said:

Is anyone else getting really annoyed by Sam Heughan's self-conscious acting?  The repeated squint-glances to the side and just below the camera are driving me nuts. Not to mention the strong inhaling pauses in the middle of sentences. He doesn't do any of that in live interviews - I don't know where he picked it up. The other actors are so much stronger in comparison that I can barely stand to look at him now. He seemed so much better early in the series. Someone please ask him to stop it!!!!

I specifically tried to watch for this, and didn't notice. I think he's doing a fine job.  Plus, this episode, he was supposed to be severely sick for many scenes, which includes different breathing to try to keep from vomiting...

[Nidratime]

Quote

In addition to the other answers, I'll add that Fergus is about 32, and Marsali is 15 (in the books). I think Jamie also objects to the age difference. It's unclear how old she is in the show though. 

I think they've made her 18 in the show.

Quote

Is anyone else getting really annoyed by Sam Heughan's self-conscious acting?

I have no idea what you're talking about. Sam has gotten nothing but kudos for his acting this season.

[virginia blue]

4 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

 

I have no idea what you're talking about. Sam has gotten nothing but kudos for his acting this season.

I think Heughan has a really difficult job to do. Jamie is written as larger than life in many respects — not perfect, but an idealized figure.  Heughan has to find a way to make him human while living up to the images of millions of book readers. I think he does a good job not getting overwhelmed by all that and makes Jamie a real, relatable character.