S03.E08: First Wife

[Athena]

Quote

Claire returns to Lallybroch with Jamie, where she does not receive quite the reception she was expecting. Unbeknownst to her, Jamie's made some choices in their time apart which come back to haunt them with a vengeance.

Reminder: The is the book talk thread. This can include spoilers for ALL the books. If you wish to remain unspoiled for any of the books, please leave now and head to the No Book Talk episode thread.

[katville]

That was everything I wanted it to be. 

[Quickbeam]

Laura Donnelly just made this episode for me. She is just brilliant and a perfect Jenny. My opinion the best episode in season 3.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Quickbeam

[Clawdette]

This was a nice return to form. I really liked the scene between Jamie and Leoghaire's girls at Hogmanay. It was charming. I also liked the compression of the reveal, shooting, and recovery. Now, off on the high seas..

[unlfan03]

A much better episode, this is how to parse out unnecessary filler and keep the good. I liked that Jamie and Loghaire's marriage was about the girls. The fight after the reveal was good and thank you Claire for calling Jamie on his bullshit about going through the stones before Culloden. You can tell the stress of this return is getting to both of them. But some how it works better now. I do think that the casting department was great with the children. All of the children cast looks like they could be honestly be the children of the adults, especially Janet and Marseli. that was brilliant casting.

Next week will be interesting as it looks like we are loosing some historical tourism, probably no stop in France maybe just a quick stop at a port to pick up our crew. So without Paris we have no Rothschildes but more importantly and quite sadly no Mother Hilde and no visit to Faith's grave, unless it is a short blink and miss scene. But time is running out and we need to save Ian.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I don’t care! I don’t care that they deviated from the buik with respect to Claire running away and Jamie thinking he was dying and hallucinating Claire treating him.

And they used the line that Jamie asked of Claire from the print shop in tonight’s episode:

”Will you risk the man I am now, for the one you once knew?” when Claire expresses her doubts about them belonging together. And Toni says the reason for showing Claire less sure about them in the show was deliberate, because Claire was more sure in the buik, and SHE didn’t believe that. So shut up, Toni. You’re projecting your 21st century and logic on a character who was written differently.

And also SHUT UP, Ron, for your insistence on making hosebeast more sympathetic, because you knew that Jamie marries her down the line.

I LOVE that Jamie/Sam’s hair is not the fugly.

I continue to love Wee Ian calling Claire “Auntie, Auntie Claire.”❤️❤️❤️

“You belong wi’ me.  We’re mated for life, Sassenach.”

Me: ???????

And these are me thoughts just moments after watching. Must go back and rewatch again.

Oh! We got the ”CLAIRRRE!!” that was heavily promoted in a flashback!

19 hours ago, katville said:

That was everything I wanted it to be. 

I AGREE!!!!

And what the fuck, new writers? Just STOP with Jamie accusing Claire of leaving him. I give points for having Claire call BULLSHIT in that. But it should never have been put to paper, let alone on screen!??

Edited November 6, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[unlfan03]

1 minute ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And also SHUT UP, Ron, for your insistence on making hosebeast more sympathetic, because you knew that Jamie marries her down the line.

 

Yep they could have done what was on scene and made it about the girls and it would have worked. No "redemption"of hosebeast necessary.

[GHScorpiosRule]

And this had me ???

Jenny: “Ye had me worrit half to death!”

Bops Wee Ian on the side of his head (boxing his ears?)

Wee Ian: “I didna mean tae worry ye!”

Then this gem:

Jamie: “Then there was a wee fire at the print shop.”

Ian: “WEE?! You wouldna even be standing here if was Wee.”

Me: ????????

[Cloudberryjam]

LOVED IT!!!! Sorry for shouting but I am so relieved after the last two that this not only did not suck but was really good!!!! 

Those last shots were all melodramatic and piratey and awesome!!!

[Dust Bunny]

I really enjoyed this one. The pace was perfect. A lot of quiet, slow moments. It gave the actors room to breathe.

Joanie was charming. I love Jamie as father figure. Looking forward to the protective nature coming out next week. I like the idea of such an age difference between the two girls. I always imagined they were closer in age. Since they aged up Marsali, it makes sense that the girls would probably have different biological fathers. I know it's in the books, but they underlined how young Jenny and Ian's children are when they start having children. It sets a precedent for Marsali and Brianna.

The fight was great. Jamie and Claire were completely open and can now build into new intimacy, from that honest foundation. Credit to Sam, Cait, and the writers for building towards that. The last episode was frustrating, but this one might make that one more palpable. 

I like that they kept Jamie's greylag goose story, without adding the word goose. It's little things like that that keeps Outlander rooted in place.

Yes, Murtagh is cool, but I love Ned Gowan. Can we keep Bill Paterson? Just recast him in every location.

Everything about Silkie Island was well done. Show more, talk less. Beautiful last shot. Really heightened the urgency to find a ship.

This episode showed me that Outlander is still top shelf. I'll chalk last week up to clunky and necessary exposition.

Bring on the tall ships!

Edited November 5, 2017 by Dust Bunny

[Cloudberryjam]

Yes, season 1 and even season 2 Outlander seemed like a “top shelf” show that could help Starz compete w shows like GOT.  This season I was thinking “well, probably it wont make it to season 5”.  But this episode REALLY brought the quality tv!! Good for you actors, writers, producers etc. Who would have thought the Dreaded Lheery Episode would be the best so far???

Also I forgot the greylag thing from the book. “We are mated for life!” ❤️Yes Jamie, yes we are.

ETA:  Now i cant wait for Fergus and 

Spoiler

Marsali together! In the book I hated Lheery so much that I also hated Marsali by association. But somehow the show has pulled it off and i am here for Fergsali  now! 

Edited November 5, 2017 by Cloudberryjam
Bc great casting

[GHScorpiosRule]

Since this is a buik talk thread, spoiler tags are unnecessary.

[ruby24]

I gotta be honest, I don't like the way the new writers have changed things from the book. I feel like they misunderstand Jamie AND Claire as characters. It's off-putting to me.

I did like the episode, but I am never going to understand why they didn't take the scene near verbatim from the book where the kid bursts in on them having sex and that's the first second you ever hear of him being married and to the dreaded Lheery of all people. That was shocking in the best way, and it would have been perfect on the screen too. 

It's like they're terrified of giving Jamie any kind of an edge whatsoever. And they're also still holding back on the heat between Jamie and Claire- one episode and that's it, huh? Once again, in the book, they can't keep their hands off each other and the kid pops in at exactly the wrong moment. Here, they're just sitting there. 

The first season was the one that stayed closest to the book as possible and it's still the best one. All of the changes they started making in the second and third seasons were for the worse (except maybe for the time jumping stuff in the second, because that HAD to be dealt with differently).

Edited November 5, 2017 by ruby24

[Petunia846]

Well I liked this one too, except for that awkward moment when everyone burst into the room and kept saying daddy over and over again. The fight with Jamie and Claire afterwards got out a lot of the awkward bits we've been wondering about.

I missed having Fergus around this episode, but I guess he wasn't at Lallybroch in this part of the book either, was he?

All those sweeping shots of the boat and the water at the end after Ian was taken, I just kept thinking, "Here we go...now we've got a pirate show." I could almost hear Moore squealing with joy through the internet.

PS. I also liked how they redid the scene where Jamie and Young Ian belt each other. It was uncomfortable and ridiculous in the book, and I thought the fix was both appropriate AND showed how Jamie has learned a thing or two over the years (both from his experience with Claire and probably also from his time with Willie, where he couldn't hit the boy given their relationship, and therefore probably came up with some more creative punishments to set him straight.)

Edited November 5, 2017 by Petunia846

[morgan]

Loved it!  Can’t wait to rewatch.  Always felt so sad in the book about the rift between Jenny and Claire and did here as well.  Love Ned Gowan back again.  Love that we got a lovely full episode at Lallybroch before we bid fairwell to Scotland.  So sad to see the end of our time (for the most part) there.  Looking forward to seeing Fraser’s ridge someday, although I know there is a lot of living between now and then. 

Thought they did a good job compressing stuff.  Not sure how I felt about the change in the strapping scene actually, because although Jamie never takes a strap to Claire again, he is a man of his times and believed in it.  But not a hill I will die on, just suprised.  I loved the Hogmanay flashback.  And loved meeting all Jenny and Ian’s kids.  So much to enjoy here. Loved that Jamie and Claire got so much out.  Loved the flashback to Jamie on the island.  And even though I have read the books many times, my heart was in my throat when Jamie and Claire were helplessly watching Ian on the island.

Now go get wee Ian and give Ron his ship scenes.  I swear I picture a gleeful little boy right now.  Lol.  

[morgan]

5 hours ago, ruby24 said:

 

It's like they're terrified of giving Jamie any kind of an edge whatsoever. And they're also still holding back on the heat between Jamie and Claire- one episode and that's it, huh? Once again, in the book, they can't keep their hands off each other and the kid pops in at exactly the wrong moment. Here, they're just sitting there. 

I wonder if they altered that in consideration of the little girl actress?  Scene is similar enough for viewers without having the girl have to witness quite what the character does in the books?

[unlfan03]

7 hours ago, Dust Bunny said:

 

Joanie was charming. I love Jamie as father figure. Looking forward to the protective nature coming out next week. I like the idea of such an age difference between the two girls. I always imagined they were closer in age. Since they aged up Marsali, it makes sense that the girls would probably have different biological fathers. I know it's in the books, but they underlined how young Jenny and Ian's children are when they start having children. It sets a precedent for Marsali and Brianna.

Joanie was adorable, she looked to be about the same age as Brianna when we found out about Candy/Mandy/Sandy so it makes me wonder if someone in the writer's room found out about a father's mistress about 7 years old. And the conversation that Jamie has with her is just about perfect, you can see he is just so happy that Claire is back but that he still wants to be a father to these two girls that he has adopted into his heart. It underscores his feelings about Young Ian and also sets up some things,  if we are fortunate to get that far for MOBY and beyond.

 

15 minutes ago, morgan said:

I wonder if they altered that in consideration of the little girl actress?  Scene is similar enough for viewers without having the girl have to witness quite what the character does in the books?

I do think that this was a consideration when they changed the daughter which found them from Marsali to Joan. I do think the it was an appropriate change, Marsali just seemed to "old" to call Jamie daddy even in the book at 15, when he would have been the 3rd father she would have had. But Joan as young as she is would probably call Jamie daddy. However, I do feel like the age is a little squeaky young when considering that in "A Space Between" there is this underlying attraction between her and Jenny and Ian's middle son (not pictured this episode but at least 4 years older than Ian) as he takes her to the nunnery in Paris. I am sure they won't get into that at all since it is just a side story but for myself as a book reader she had always been closer to 12 than 8. But then again our dear author admits she is terrible with ages and math and changes ages left and right to make the characters fit where she wants so I can hand wave it a bit.
 

[areca]

OK, that was much, much better.  Thank God.  I was rapidly losing faith (and frankly, interest) in this show.  I don't mind how they snipped the filler here either.  

[thesparkinside]

Yes, that was much better. I enjoyed the whole episode, with the interplay of humor and drama, and people not acting like fools. The more elaborated stories that Claire and Jamie told Jenny were plausible. The actress playing Jenny (Laura Donnelly, right?) brought her A game. Lots of layers there--you could see the thoughts going on under the surface. I continue to love Young Ian; young Joanie was delightful, and yey for Marsali!

[Side note: in my head, it's Mar-sally. I guess it's Mars-a-lee?]

I had two very small quibbles: Jamie says essentially that Jenny wouldn't understand The Truth because she's lived all her life on the farm. I was a little insulted on Jenny's behalf. Just because she lives at Lallybroch doesn't mean she's dumb.

Second, Claire mentions Richmond being lovely "this time of year", which was funny. However, Richmond was an upstart town at that time, and Williamsburg or Alexandria would have been  more familiar to Scots in the mid-18th century. To them "Richmond" would probably mean the place in England first. Also, when Claire mentioned "Boston" in previous episodes, it occurred to me that her listeners might have thought first of the Boston in England (though Boston, Mass. *was* a thriving city at that point, obviously). Those are SUPER minor, though, and unimportant since the meaning was perfectly clear.

[Dejana]

57 minutes ago, morgan said:

I wonder if they altered that in consideration of the little girl actress?  Scene is similar enough for viewers without having the girl have to witness quite what the character does in the books?

Scenes like that can be filmed in such a way that the child actors don't actually have to see anything inappropriate. They film a kid looking into a doorway separately, then splice that into a scene with the adults being interrupted in the midst of whatever sexual thing they are doing, without the child really being present for the worst bits. I can remember this happening a couple of times on Mad Men. 

Joan and Marsali were definitely closer in age in the books; Marsali tells Claire about speculating with her sister on how awful sex must be. They saw their mother constantly shirk from Jamie's touch even as he treated her well, from what they could see, so they concluded that the marital relations part behind closed doors had to be this terrible thing to be dreaded at all costs.

I'm from a part of the world where it's not unusual to call their fathers "Daddy" well into adulthood, so that part of the scene never stood out as unusual to me.

[Atlanta]

14 minutes ago, thesparkinside said:

[Side note: in my head, it's Mar-sally. I guess it's Mars-a-lee?]

Book narrator Davina Porter calls her Mar-sally.

[thesparkinside]

Also, at some point I think Jamie says something to the effect that he took good care of Young Ian and will continue to do so . . . I was like BWAAHAHAHA on both counts.

[Ziggy]

6 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I did like the episode, but I am never going to understand why they didn't take the scene near verbatim from the book where the kid bursts in on them having sex and that's the first second you ever hear of him being married and to the dreaded Lheery of all people. That was shocking in the best way, and it would have been perfect on the screen too.

I know!  I was disappointed that the other wife was revealed last week.  But I was ok with the girls not walking into the room while they were having sex (or rather, while he had his face between her legs).  It's one thing to film that and show that on Starz.  It'm actually not ok with them filming that with kids around.  It works on paper, but I would not want to be the parents of those girls who played Joan and Marseli if my daughter had to interrupt oral sex.  So I was ok with that particular change.

3 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

Book narrator Davina Porter calls her Mar-sally.

Yep.  That will be a bit of an adjustment for me.  Love listening to the audiobooks!

[AheadofStraight]

Loved it. Sam's real hair, yay! Love that we got the line about risking the man he is now.

Only nitpicks: Didn't love Claire's wondering if they belong together. Book Claire never doubted that for a second. Also still maintain it would have been awesome to not reveal the wife secret to the audience last week. Still enjoyed it though and the compression of the story worked well.

Loved Jenny this episode. Fierce is the word that keeps coming to mind!

[ihartcoffee]

The casting for this show us so good,  the kids look like offspring of the main characters.  Jenny has always been the perfect little spitfire that I imagined in the books.  Great episode! When she threw water on them I laughed so hard!  I haven't read the books in some years so I forget some of what happens.  

[WatchrTina]

I'm posting my initial reaction without looking at anything anyone else has written.

WHOO HOO!  They pulled it off.  That was GREAT!

This is SUCH a tricky part of the book and the book skips one of the most critical conversations -- the explanation of WHY Claire never wrote Ian & Jenny in 20 years.  I am SO glad they addressed that and, for me, it worked.  They hit all the essential beats while dropping the inessential plot points (no Claire riding off in a huff) and they improved quite a bit on the book -- especially making us feel bad for wee Joan -- wee red-headed Joan (damn, that hurt so good.)

Okay, I'm off to watch again but HUZZAH!  They pulled it off!

[Squirrely]

Would it have killed them to at least keep the part where Wee Jamie remembered Aunt Claire? I was looking forward to that when he was introduced. Ahh well. I know it's a small quibble. Was also surprised that they changed the whole story of the treasure from the book. That treasure kept the Murrays and people of Lallybroch fed and alive, but now they have Jamie keeping it a secret until he needs it? 

Ron should not have admitted that he knew Jamie marries Loaghaire back in season 1. It's far more unforgivable in the show because Jamie clearly knew that she was responsible for Claire being tried as a witch, and he did not in the book. Being lonely and wanting to be a father does not excuse marrying the woman who all but had your wife killed! That is honestly my biggest problem with the entire series to date and I think it ruined my enjoyment of this episode. 

[Atlanta]

Sorry, Ron, Leghair will never be sympathetic. 

Bummed Claire didn't mention Bri to Jenny since she shows up to Lallybroch next season. However, C's explanation here makes more sense than the book.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Atlanta

[BryroseA]

So, I’m clearly a major hypocrite because I was definitely among those decrying the changes from the book in the last ep, but this ep...I loved them. 

Seriously, everything with Jenny and how and why she was angry was so much better and felt so much more realistic than in the book. I’m glad they didn’t have Claire leave Lallybroch (even though her return scene is a personal favorite of mine in the book). The flashbacks to Jaime’s swim to the island fit well here (although I am wondering why they chose not to keep the part of the book where he’d been returning, with various Murrays in tow, for years to fund the family). 

I’m happy that we’re still dealing with the tension of Claire returning and what that means after twenty years. I loved that the first time we finally see her in Period garb as opposed to her bat suit is after she and Jenny reconcile. I really, really thought she was going to tell Jenny and am almost sad she didn’t. It feels like it would have worked in the episode, as set up. 

Also, dang does the actress playing Marsali look like her “mother” - good casting there. 

[Kata01]

Much stronger episode. I thought the changes made from the book worked for tv. I agree with those on the necessity of redemption for Laoghaire, or any character really - meaning there is no necessity. Let the characters stand on their own. 

Young Ian continues to delight. With each “Auntie Claire”, I could give him the world on a silver platter ;) 

 

10 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And Toni says the reason for showing Claire less sure about them in the show was deliberate, because Claire was more sure in the buik, and SHE didn’t believe that. So shut up, Toni. You’re projecting your 21st century and logic on a character who was written differently.

I started thinking last week, listening to writers/production - they write as though Claire, indeed, took a ship to the colonies after Culloden and not travelled back and forth 200 years in time. Less sure? Less sure? I mean, REALLY, what is she going to do - pop back through the stones? Do they realize the entire series is premised on a woman time traveling through standing stones finding, losing, reuniting with her soulmate/true love? It’s like they just don’t get it. lol 

[toolazy]

"Whiskers?! You?!"

I'm really glad they kept that.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, BryroseA said:

Also dang does the actress playing Marsali look like her “mother” - good casting there. 

I know! At first I thought it was Laoghaire! Especially when she smiled! And I was like-why are you giving her the time of day, Jamie??

What I really appreciate and this is all due to  Sam, his understanding and knowing Jamie, from playing him, not to mention, he pays attention to what he’s reading-are the small touches and physical mannerisms,  if you will, that he shows. Like last night, the tapping of his fingers against the bag strap-tap-tap-tap. SO JAMIE when he’s thinking.

And did I mention how happy I am that he has his own hair back???

I also ? at how Jamie also looked and talked like a chagrined child when Ian and Jenny were ripping into him.

Edited November 5, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[TaurusRose]

3 hours ago, morgan said:

Loved it!  Can’t wait to rewatch.  Always felt so sad in the book about the rift between Jenny and Claire and did here as well.  Love Ned Gowan back again.  Love that we got a lovely full episode at Lallybroch before we bid fairwell to Scotland.  So sad to see the end of our time (for the most part) there.  Looking forward to seeing Fraser’s ridge someday, although I know there is a lot of living between now and then. 

Thought they did a good job compressing stuff.  Not sure how I felt about the change in the strapping scene actually, because although Jamie never takes a strap to Claire again, he is a man of his times and believed in it.  But not a hill I will die on, just suprised.  I loved the Hogmanay flashback.  And loved meeting all Jenny and Ian’s kids.  So much to enjoy here. Loved that Jamie and Claire got so much out.  Loved the flashback to Jamie on the island.  And even though I have read the books many times, my heart was in my throat when Jamie and Claire were helplessly watching Ian on the island.

Now go get wee Ian and give Ron his ship scenes.  I swear I picture a gleeful little boy right now.  Lol.  

Love this turn of a phrase. Will definitely use going forward. ?

[melody16]

I loved seeing Ned! His and Claire's reunion was so heartwarming. It made me so happy to see how excited Ned was to see her especially after the coldness of Jamie's family, except Young Ian who continues to be fantastic. The three of them (Jamies, Claire, Ian) work so well together, which bodes well for next season. 

The scene where Jamie dances with Marsali and Joan was so well done. It actually made teary. That was slo-mo used correctly! 

The fight scene was everything I wanted it to be and more. Cait was amazing throughout especially when she was telling Jamie off for consistently accusing her of leaving. And Sam was also so excellent. The part where he was talking about Frank and Claire being together and raising Brianna was like book Jamie stepped out from the pages of Voyager. The way he delivered those lines was exactly how I pictured it. Laura Donnelly is tremendous and Steven Cree really captures the kindness of Senior Ian. But wow do I hate Jenny. Both in the book and in the show. 

Can't wait to see more Marsali!!

Edited November 5, 2017 by melody16

[MsProudSooner]

I loved Jamie's conversation with Laoghaire's younger daughter.  I also look forward to seeing Fergus and Marsali together and Jamie disabusing them of any notion that they'll sleep together before they are married.  

Claire and Jenny's scenes together were wonderful.  When Jenny said, "You could have written us a letter!" you could see how hurt she was.  And then in the last scene where they were alone you could see how much Claire was tempted to tell her the whole story because she misses her and loves her like a sister.  Very well done.   

[GHScorpiosRule]

21 minutes ago, melody16 said:

Stephen Gree really captures the kindness of Senior Ian. 

It’s Steven Cree.?

I also loved Ian calling Jenny on her hypocrisy regarding Jamie’s happiness. I love those two. Another wonderful couple and Steven and Laura are just amazing.

So it seems that despite showing the date when Wee Ian was born and the years passed between then and “A. Malcolm,” they SORASED Wee Ian by two years instead of having him lie to Claire about him being 16, when he was 14 going on 15 in the buik.

There are SO MANY quotable lines in this episode!

And personally, I loved Jamie and Claire fighting, rolling around on the floor before he got her to listen and go strrrreight make up passionate sex. Because these two are hard headed and passionate people. I don’t care if that makes me unfeminist! And then ??when Jenny threw water in them and both acted like teenagers caught doing hanky panky!?????

Jamie stroking Claire’s face when they were in the room. I love those small touches and am convinced it’s all Sam because the writers this season are determined to let writing them out of character and this is Sam’s quiet way of rebelling.???

[FnkyChkn34]

Ok, I did like this episode, and agree that it felt a lot more like season one again. I won't repeat all the accolades that everyone else has already said. But I do have one pet peeve I didn't see mentioned...

Claire, honey, just no... you can't bring up "there's room for secrets but not lies" when getting mad at Jamie here. Because that's exactly what he did! He kept a secret, but he didn't lie. Claire never asked if he remarried, if he had a wife, if he married Leghair.  Claire only ever asked if he ever fell in love with anyone else, and "no" was the truth. Be mad, Claire, yes - but don't use that quote!  I did not like that part at all...

[Eureka]

I literally just started the episode and I’m sure I’ll have more to say later. I’ve been meaning to mention that I love how Sam has brought to life the mannerism of Jamie tapping his fingers when he’s thinking hard about something or troubled. Great little detail from the book.

[melody16]

11 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

It’s Steven Cree.?

 

Ugh! This is why I shouldn't post using my phone! Thanks for the correction! 

[Nidratime]

I normally don't watch an episode in advance, but I'm going to be out this evening and I couldn't resist taking a peek ahead of time.

 

Quote

[Side note: in my head, it's Mar-sally. I guess it's Mars-a-lee?]

I believe the writers found out from their Scots' advisers on set that the name would be pronounced Marsley, rhyming with parsley. I guess Davina Porter didn't confer with any Scots about that. ;-)

Quote

I gotta be honest, I don't like the way the new writers have changed things from the book. I feel like they misunderstand Jamie AND Claire as characters. It's off-putting to me.

I thought this particular new writer -- Joy Blake -- did a pretty good job. That being said, I don't necessarily condemn all the new writers when we don't like something about an episode. After all, they are not writing these episodes in a vacuum. They break the story as a team and debate different changes, as we've learned from the podcasts and other Q&A sessions. Plus, the scripts are edited and changes and suggestions are made by other writers. But, I guess if a particular writer is going to get all the glory when an episode is loved, I guess they have to take all the criticism when an episode doesn't hit the mark.

Quote

Bummed Claire didn't mention Bri to Jenny since she shows up to Lallybroch next season. However, C's explanation here makes more sense than the book.

I was holding my breath, expecting that to happen and was very glad it didn't. I think that would have also caused an uproar since Claire doesn't tell Jenny she has a living daughter in the books and that would've spoiled next season's surprise visit of Brianna to Lallybroch and the convincing she had to do.

Plus, at that point, Claire had no idea that she and Jamie were going to be off on an epic voyage to find Ian, ending up in the colonies and not returning for a long time. So, telling Jenny about Bri would've brought up all kinds of questions. Why didn't she come with you? How could you bear to leave her? When can she visit? I guess we can expect letters.... Etc. Etc.

In any event, Jenny -- as usual -- was wonderful in this episode and young Janet was a dead ringer for her mother. They're doing such a great job with the second generation in terms of their likeness to their parents. And, to be honest, I thought for one moment they actually changed the story and Joan was going to be Jamie's actual daughter -- she looked so much like him. Good job, show, managing to make this book reader sit on the edge of her seat.

This was a very good episode, although some of the jumps in the action seemed to go so fast, i.e., Laoghaire disappearing almost immediately when Claire knocked the gun away and pushed her out of the courtyard. Ian being picked up by the sailors and them getting over to the ship so quickly. I was thinking, wow! That happened quick! Them is some champion rowers! ;-)

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

Plus, at that point, Claire had no idea that she and Jamie were going to be off on an epic voyage to find Ian, ending up in the colonies and not returning for a long time. So, telling Jenny about Bri would've brought up all kinds of questions. Why didn't she come with you? How could you bear to leave her? When can she visit? I guess we can expect letters.... Etc. Etc.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense Claire would tell them anything about Brianna yet. Claire doesn't believe she will ever see her again as it is, no point in making things more complicated by bringing her up yet.

[Cloudberryjam]

31 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Ok, I did like this episode, and agree that it felt a lot more like season one again. I won't repeat all the accolades that everyone else has already said. But I do have one pet peeve I didn't see mentioned...

Claire, honey, just no... you can't bring up "there's room for secrets but not lies" when getting mad at Jamie here. Because that's exactly what he did! He kept a secret, but he didn't lie. Claire never asked if he remarried, if he had a wife, if he married Leghair.  Claire only ever asked if he ever fell in love with anyone else, and "no" was the truth. Be mad, Claire, yes - but don't use that quote!  I did not like that part at all...

Ha yes we were yelling at the tv at our house “it was a secret Claire! He didnt lie!!!”  Yes Jamie had a lot of splainin to do...but he didnt actually  lie here. Wonder how that line got through....

Edited November 5, 2017 by Cloudberryjam

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, Cloudberryjam said:

Ha yes we were yelling at the tv at our house “it was a secret Claire! He didnt lie!!!”  Yes Jamie had a lot of splainin to do...but he didnt actally lie here. Wonder how that line got through....

Isn't it straight out of the book? Which, works in the book because my recollection is Jamie did lie in the book. As I recall, Claire asks him if he had a wife somewhere and he sidesteps it by saying there was only ever Claire for him. 

However, I still think this one is a lie, even if it's a lie of omission, simply because if he and Claire were really going to move forward together, they needed to deal with the Laoghaire situation and it was flat-out foolish for Jamie to think he could keep that from Claire especially once they headed for Lallybroch. The Willy withholding in the book is more of a secret, not a lie, IMO, because Jamie has no expectation to ever see Willie again and Willie really has nothing to do with Claire.

[Atlanta]

It's frustrating that the Murrays think they've cornered the marketing on having their hearts broken and suffering. Oh, yeah, Claire was just lounging around eating bon-bons and and thrilled. 

[Eureka]

5 hours ago, morgan said:

I wonder if they altered that in consideration of the little girl actress?  Scene is similar enough for viewers without having the girl have to witness quite what the character does in the books?

I didn’t mind the alteration but they could have done it with the child actress not actually seeing anything. 

[areca]

4 hours ago, Atlanta said:

Book narrator Davina Porter calls her Mar-sally.

Somewhere, in canon, this was addressed.  I can't recall if it's in the book or if Diana said it somewhere.  It's pronounced Marsley, like parsley.

[lianau]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Isn't it straight out of the book? Which, works in the book because my recollection is Jamie did lie in the book. As I recall, Claire asks him if he had a wife somewhere and he sidesteps it by saying there was only ever Claire for him. 

 

She never directly asks him about a new wife  , she worries about it and is relieved Jamie lives alone in the print shop and that there is no sign of a wife there .  Later she's sort of vague about the entire thing and hinting about it . The closest she comes to it  is when she's asking Jamie if he wants her to leave , maybe he has other responsibilities .

[melody16]

I think in the book she jokes about him being a bigamist when they are talking about what Jamie does for work. And then he tells her he's a smuggler. But I haven't read Voyager in a while.

[FnkyChkn34]

I forgot the exact words they said in the books, but I based my comment on the show and what they said in the show. Plus, he was about to tell her when Joan barged in. But she never asked, he never lied. He kept a secret, which she seems to say was okay... But it wasn't, so don't quote that line. 

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, areca said:

Somewhere, in canon, this was addressed.  I can't recall if it's in the book or if Diana said it somewhere.  It's pronounced Marsley, like parsley.

Yeah, we had some discussion about it here at one point. I can't remember the thread, though.

Here's a link to some discussion about pronunciations and someone throws out a theory why Davina might be pronouncing it differently: http://forums.compuserve.com/discussions/Books_and_Writers_Community/_/_/ws-books/73197.90?nav=messages

14 minutes ago, lianau said:

She never directly asks him about a new wife  , she worries about it and is relieved Jamie lives alone in the print shop and that there is no sign of a wife there .  Later she's sort of vague about the entire thing and hinting about it . The closest she comes to it  is when she's asking Jamie if he wants her to leave , maybe he has other responsibilities .

Well, she doesn't ask him point blank if he's married, but she does say: "Are you trying to tell me you don't want me to stay? Because if so ... I mean, I know you have a life now ... maybe you have ... other ties ... ." Which I took to be Claire asking Jamie if he's married.

4 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I forgot the exact words they said in the books, but I based my comment on the show and what they said in the show. Plus, he was about to tell her when Joan barged in. But she never asked, he never lied. He kept a secret, which she seems to say was okay... But it wasn't, so don't quote that line. 

Sorry, I was just providing a theory as to how the line got through--it was directly from the books--but then went on a tangent.