S06.E03: Next of Kin

[TrueMyth]

My teachers taught me the quadratic equation in a chant "x equals the opposite of B, plus or minus the square root of (said very fast with claps) B-squared-minus-four-A-C... ALLLLLLL over two A."  Still remember it and I haven't had to solve a quadratic, even in a tutoring situation, for over seven years.

So, I feel I must eat a little crow (but not a HAT, please), because I'm actually finding the William scenes endearing. I don't think Jack is a fabulous actor, but he is passable.  I could even grow to like him if I ever get a scene from his perspective or several more cozy scenes where he doesn't snark at Oliver.  I could buy him as a math prodigy, but only in the "unbalanced brain" way where he's super literal and rule following, and not socially wise, thereby explaining how he was abducted twice.  Of course, higher level math may well be problematic for him (pun intended).

But yes, bring on the cozy Olicity scenes, please!  Let's make a running joke of Oliver working to buy William's love with cooking.  Maybe William's favorite food is chile?

I still need to do a full rewatch, but I think my favorite Olicity scene was actually the first one in the loft (orange dress).  I love that Felicity knew Oliver's line nearly word for word AND called out how brilliant Oliver really is when he sets his mind to something.  And how she was totally disarmed from her wit when he CHARMED her. ;-)  I adore the physical choices that Emily makes in their scenes... jumping on the table, exiting frame almost at the horizontal in the lair, pushing him out of frame at the end.  She's not afraid to be a little goofy and Stephen obviously finds it hilarious which ends up covering Oliver in heart-eyes all over.

Was it just me, or was the last Olicity scene cut slightly odd?  After Oliver says "sure," they pause for sec before going for the kiss and it was just a tad awkward.  It was like a 80%, while their scenes (and the whole of the rest of that scene are always 110% awesome).  I feel like they had a better kiss take but used the one with the fun Emily improv push at the end even though it didn't quite match up.

Also, though I hate Diggle's drug choices for the reasons you have all stated, I will admit that I was surprised by this cliffhanger in a way that I haven't been in a long time.  The set design was unfortunate.  I know the Girls Girls Girls sign is supposed to convey "back-alley, bad side of town" things, but it was in frame so much, my brain was connecting the drug to the sign.  Like, "Is he injecting 'essence of stripper'?  What is happening?"  I know, my brain is weird.

While I'd like some reason to help me understand why Diggle has decided that he can't trust anyone with the truth of his injuries, I still had Dinah more.  If she has such a big problem with Diggle's actions (and she has a legitimate complaint), then she should SAY SOMETHING.  It is not noble to "have your friend's back" in this way, and I hate the show for framing it as such.  Or, if she just doesn't care so much, she should stop judging him and just do her own thing.  Like, I dislike Wild Dog, but he played things right in this episode.  He figured Diggle was having problems, and reached out to Oliver.  Now, I think he should have done it because Oliver is Diggle's best friend, not because he just wants Oliver back in charge, but that's the thing with Rene, he's a selfish prick.  He wants what is best for himself.  If he thought Diggle was handling things, he'd just shrug and let Diggle handle it without judgey looks.

I did laugh out loud when the camera tracked Diggle and Dinah all across the lair during their heart-to-heart about what was going on, only to pull back and show that almost the whole crew was there.  Like Felicity SHOULD KNOW something is going on with Diggle.

I liked the villain and the limo fight was very cool!

Does anyone know why this is called "Next of Kin"?  Like last week, I'm not exactly sure why the title is the title.

[ohjoy]

Okay, that's more  like it. That's the show I remember (good and bad). Apparently any iteration of OTA is enough for me to enjoy the show.

Me, watching the episode:

- Felicity/Diggle -- Aw!

- Diggle/Oliver -- Aaww!

- Oliver/Felicity -- Aawww Yeah!!!

I also really enjoyed Felicity/William. Felicity Smoak: making the Queen men more adorable since 2012. However, I'm not hugely into the business start-up stuff atm, though the bad titles are amusing. (Plus, it gave her space alone for most of the times Oliver wanted to stop by and "talk about William", so I can't fault it too much right now.)

Quentin's comment about his ex-wife Dinah curing the schoolwork was amusing.

Did not like Rene going from 0 to punk in less than 60 seconds. And I was just starting to like you, man. I'm also really over characters going from background to IN YOUR FACE in the most awful way possible. (See: DINAH) And, as much as I like Diggle and DR is doing a great job, I must confess I'm not feeling this story "Diggle as GA instead of Oliver for reasons / Diggle in pain and keeping secrets from his family/OTA" arc much at all.

But as I said, this is how they get away with things, because I've got my own mathematical formula for the show:  OTA + OTP = HAPPY ME. 

[tv echo]

24 minutes ago, TrueMyth said:

But yes, bring on the cozy Olicity scenes, please!  Let's make a running joke of Oliver working to buy William's love with cooking.  Maybe William's favorite food is chile?

From a fan review of this episode (I never read the comics so I don't know if this is true or not):

Quote

At one point, Oliver makes William a  Monte Cristo sandwich using waffles instead of bread. This is a nod to Oliver's enthusiastic if unorthodox cooking skills in the comics, where Oliver is depicted as being the sort of person who likes experimenting in the kitchen but few people enjoy the results of his experiments.

[SmallScreenDiva]

The way her eyes lit up at seeing the not-quite Monte Cristo, Felicity Smoak at least appreciates Oliver Queen's cooking. I got the sense it was something Oliver made a lot for her when they were still together.

[lemotomato]

Felicity did say it's the best nighttime snack one could ever have, so it does sound like she'd had a couple. 

Reminds me of my favorite quote from the episode livechat (I can't quote it, but here the link):

[Hiveminder]

@TrueMyth That kiss was a little awkward. I hate to say it. Like, maybe they were standing farther apart than SA thought they were and he brought his hand up too soon or something? I don’t remember exactly, but I thought something about the way SA reached for EBR was a little off when I watched it. 

Look at me. Over analyzing Olicity kisses when I should be working. 

[TwistedandBored]

I really enjoyed watching this episode. Focusing on mainly the OTA has done wonders for this show.

Also, as much as I tend to not care anything about Dinah. She is starting to irritated me. I know she means well but the actress's delivery is making Dinah soo cold and judgmental. Pass on that crap.

The optics on making Diggle the only Superhero drug addict on the show is just so wrong. It's doesn't even matter why they are doing but just no show. 

[immortalfrieza]

6 hours ago, DeadZeus said:

Diggle looking buff in the suit looks kinda badass, but still REALLY hope that once Oliver gets back in the suit those episodes will be actionpacked like never before cuz he has some catching up to do in terms of action!

Personally i don't like this Diggle/GA arc.. I mean... Are viewers really supposed to believe Oliver will stop being GA? Just like we were supposed to believe he quit being GA last season... It just falls flat...
 

But again, Diggle wears the suit well.

The worst part? Aside from the whole "nerve damage tremor drug" storyline this would have worked pretty well as a sendoff for the original Green Arrow, but it's just poisoned the well now. Even if they do end up getting rid of Stephen Amell for whatever reason and thus have to replace Oliver as the Green Arrow there's no way in hell anybody is going to buy he's really gone for quite a while afterward.

[Mellowyellow]

So I watched the kiss again several times for research purposes, because I'm a good little shipper! 

I thought the first part where he reaches for Felicity is fine and like @SmallScreenDiva has stated, the shove backwards and jacket looked like it was improvised. I think it went beautifully with the scene though because they are diving back in but they're not perfectly at ease yet so it's a wee bit awkward and not as smooth. Head canon says they probably bumped into something while they were doing it! 

Also loved Oliver's eyebrow going up! She jumps him and he's shocked! Very consistent! THEY ARE JUST TOO CUTE AND PERFECT EVEN WHEN THEY'RE BEING AWKWARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[statsgirl]

On 10/26/2017 at 11:15 PM, quarks said:

15. The truck drivers. I might even be up for a truck driver spinoff, where various superheroes pop into the truck only to be tortured by the music.

I'd watch that.  It would possibly better than some of the DC movies.

This episode lived up to the hype.  Can we keep this show?

I had never heard of a Monte Cristo and when I looked it up, I wondered how Felicity knows how good they are because they're made with ham and she's Jewish. But then I found one made with smoked turkey so I felt better.  Apparently in Canada they are made in a skillet like grilled cheese sandwiches (but dipped in the egg mixture first) so I guess that's why Oliver didn't deep fry them.

I remember binomial equations (almost) fondly.  It was integration that killed me.

21 hours ago, SleepDeprived said:

Speaking of things I'm confused about, I don't understand the floor plan of Oliver's apartment. It really looks like it only has the one bedroom--William's. There's the main door that leads to the living room with the shelves of weird artifacts/decor of unknown pieces, then it's the kitchen which is right next to William's room. I don't think I've seen any hallways leading from the living room or kitchen that could suggest other bedrooms or other areas in that apartment. Like, where is Oliver's room? And Raisa's? Are there stairs on the side that go up to a previously unseen second (or down to a basement) floor with more bedrooms/bathrooms? I'm just wondering because I want to see Oliver's bedroom to be sure that it's nice and tidy and, also, sound-proofed well enough for whenever Felicity sleeps over. Important stuff to know.

I looked at it more closely after I read your post and yes, it's very strange.  William's room appears to let into the main room which is a combination living room and dining area, with concrete walls at either end so no place for another bedroom there..  Opposite William's room is a kitchen area with appliances against the back wall so there is no opportunity to put a door in there.  Where does Oliver sleep?  Where does Raisa sleep since clearly she sleeps over because she knew about William's nightmares when Oliver didn't.

The strangest thing is that there is a wall of windows and on the same wall, just beside the windows, is a door.  So unless it's a ground floor apartment, which it doesn't look like, anyone coming in the front door would need to be be able to walk on air. Or rappel down from the roof.

12 hours ago, tv echo said:

Yes, Oliver should take care of his son and become involved in his life as his father. However, last time I checked, in child custody cases, the primary consideration is not a parent's wishes but the best interests of the child. IIRC, Samantha had moved back to her home in Central City to be near her family (after taking or not taking money from Moira - $1M not cashed and another $1M mysteriously missing) and her parents are still living. Presumably, William's grandparents have been in William and Samantha's life for 10 years. So what would've been in William's best interests? (A) Stay in Central City with his grandparents whom he's known all his life and continue to go to the same school where he has friends; or (B) move to Star City to live with his father, who's a virtual stranger and a busy mayor, while being taken care of by another stranger, Raisa, and starting over again at a new school where he knows no one? Now, maybe the judge would've still decided to give custody to Oliver as the father, but we'll never know because apparently Samantha is the show's oracle and whatever she says goes.

Maybe Samantha knew something about her parents that we don't?  Something that made her not want them to have custody of William?

I think that in the early days, William should have stayed with his grandparents.  But in the long run, he's better off with his father.  I fanwank it that William spent time with his grandparents in the months after Lian Yu but when school started hr moved with Oliver because that's going to be his permanent home.

10 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

1. Your intelligence level is not dependent on your parents. I know for a fact. 

2. We don’t know anything about Samantha’s academic capabilities, but, as was just stated by Felicity in this episode and as I think has been obvious all along, Oliver can do math. He just doesn’t care about it. You can’t fly a plane without some mathematical ability. Maybe if the show stopped making Oliver dumb for plot people would realize that he’s actually quite intelligent. 

There are some ways to increase IQ (eg. enriched environment) and many to decrease it (impoverished environment, injury, illness) but the general area of intelligence is pretty much fixed by your genes.  That said, Oliver is smart in areas that he wants to be (as my mother used to say about my ex, they don't give out PhDs for common sense) and Sam seemed good enough in smarts to support herself and William.  I have my doubts as to how William can be at prodigy level unless there are some powerful math genes in Samantha's family.  Also wouldn't he be able to figure out the math on his own then?

[leopardprint]

That episode was mostly not boring!  I am glad that Diggle is getting a good storyline not too sure about the injectibles aspect though. 

I am finding Dinah and Rene way more annoying that Curtis, maybe because Curtis is just overenthusiastic whereas D/R are just being straight up entitled jerks. 

4 MINUTES AGO, STATSGIRL SAID:

I looked at it more closely after I read your post and yes, it's very strange. William's room appears to let into the main room which is a combination living room and dining area, with concrete walls at either end so no place for another bedroom there.. Opposite William's room is a kitchen area with appliances against the back wall so there is no opportunity to put a door in there. Where does Oliver sleep? Where does Raisa sleep since clearly she sleeps over because she knew about William's nightmares when Oliver didn't.

The strangest thing is that there is a wall of windows and on the same wall, just beside the windows, is a door. So unless it's a ground floor apartment, which it doesn't look like, anyone coming in the front door would need to be be able to walk on air. Or rappel down from the roof.

William's room opens onto a hallway next to the kitchen which presumably has more rooms at the end of it. What is baffling is that the interior walls of the apartment also appear to be concrete. 

Edited October 28, 2017 by leopardprint

[Angel12d]

7 hours ago, TrueMyth said:

Was it just me, or was the last Olicity scene cut slightly odd?  After Oliver says "sure," they pause for sec before going for the kiss and it was just a tad awkward.  It was like a 80%, while their scenes (and the whole of the rest of that scene are always 110% awesome).  I feel like they had a better kiss take but used the one with the fun Emily improv push at the end even though it didn't quite match up.

I think it was cut oddly, too. I also think maybe Oliver was going in for a hug but Felicity was like "Nope, take those clothes off!" Haha.

I'd love to see the kiss from the promo pic. But either way I still loved the scene. I'm still not over Oliver getting emotional as he said "Just like mine." Major props to SA for that acting choice tbh. MY HEART. 

[Mellowyellow]

11 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I have my doubts as to how William can be at prodigy level unless there are some powerful math genes in Samantha's family.  Also wouldn't he be able to figure out the math on his own then?

My head canon is that Felicity was just being nice and over enthusiastic with her praise! And that she was THRILLED to have something to bond with William since he seems to like school and studying just like her.

8 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I'm still not over Oliver getting emotional as he said "Just like mine." Major props to SA for that acting choice tbh. MY HEART. 

He was awesome in that scene! He had the cutest smile when she babbled about his abs and then he was all teary! Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh they are so amazing!!!!!!!!!

[apinknightmare]

16 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Speaking of things I'm confused about, I don't understand the floor plan of Oliver's apartment. It really looks like it only has the one bedroom--William's. There's the main door that leads to the living room with the shelves of weird artifacts/decor of unknown pieces, then it's the kitchen which is right next to William's room. I don't think I've seen any hallways leading from the living room or kitchen that could suggest other bedrooms or other areas in that apartment. Like, where is Oliver's room? And Raisa's? Are there stairs on the side that go up to a previously unseen second (or down to a basement) floor with more bedrooms/bathrooms? I'm just wondering because I want to see Oliver's bedroom to be sure that it's nice and tidy and, also, sound-proofed well enough for whenever Felicity sleeps over. Important stuff to know.

I was wondering this too. 

It looks like there's a hallway to the side of William's room (that cement wall that breaks up the sauna wood):

That's a hallway that has ANOTHER door to William's room: 

 

I'm guessing the other bedroom(s) is/are back there. 

 

ETA: WOAH THOSE ARE HUGE, I'M SORRY.

Edited October 28, 2017 by apinknightmare

[JamieLynn832002]

14 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

The strangest thing is that there is a wall of windows and on the same wall, just beside the windows, is a door.  So unless it's a ground floor apartment, which it doesn't look like, anyone coming in the front door would need to be be able to walk on air. Or rappel down from the roof.

Maybe Dinah hangs out and canary cries people down? Incredibly hard, onto cars.

 

Honestly the layouts of most of the apartments on the show have always confused me. I don't understand the loft at all. Laurel's apartment never really seemed like a two bedroom but she and Thea both lived there.

[BkWurm1]

12 hours ago, DeadZeus said:

Diggle looking buff in the suit looks kinda badass, but still REALLY hope that once Oliver gets back in the suit those episodes will be actionpacked like never before cuz he has some catching up to do in terms of action!

Personally i don't like this Diggle/GA arc.. I mean... Are viewers really supposed to believe Oliver will stop being GA? Just like we were supposed to believe he quit being GA last season... It just falls flat...
 

But again, Diggle wears the suit well.

4

It's not exciting storytelling but given how often Oliver has quit, my real take away is that he deep down really does want to quit but he keeps finding himself drawn back in.  So I'm perfectly predisposed to think given the right circumstances, he would actually quit for good. These are not the right circumstances, of course, so yeah, I doubt anyone believes he's gone for good but if they ended the show with him again walking away, I'd probably be able to buy into it.  

8 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

@TrueMyth That kiss was a little awkward. I hate to say it. Like, maybe they were standing farther apart than SA thought they were and he brought his hand up too soon or something? I don’t remember exactly, but I thought something about the way SA reached for EBR was a little off when I watched it. 

Look at me. Over analyzing Olicity kisses when I should be working. 

Yes, technically, the kiss was a bit awkward.  For me, the issue was that Oliver says his line and then without letting her react, he goes in to kiss her when I would have thought the scene more naturally would have had Felicity initiate the kiss or Oliver go for the kiss after confirmation that she's in, but after I watched that kiss on rewind many, many, many times for research, my head canon is that Oliver didn't wait for her cue because he really wasn't at all in the dark to what Felicity's answer was going to be and he just wanted to kiss her so badly that he didn't wait for her to respond before he started going for it.

 Part of my reason to watch it a ridiculous number of times (and that's before slow-mo was involved to track micro expressions -this is serious scientific work.) was to check on where they were headed offscreen during the fade to black.  Their trajectory would bring them to the couch that's now along the wall under the balcony windows near the table she hopped up on in the earlier scene.  I was kind of surprised she didn't choose a more nearby and softer surface but I can see where tried and true would have won out.  ;)

SA's surprise was really obvious in slo-mo so I agree that it is probably why this is the take they used even though I honestly do think he flubbed the lean in for the kiss.  I can rationalize he was just so sure and eager but knowing it's scripted, in reality I think SA skipped the part where Oliver would have waited for a signal to start the kiss and just basically said his line and followed the stage direction to then kiss her.  In that particuar take, he rushed it, but - and this is a big but - once EBR responded, then the kiss went from a bit awkward to it looking like Oliver was just melting into it and savoring just the joy of kissing Felicity and her kissing him back.    

He goes from awkwardly reaching for her and bending down, to her rising up on her tiptoes to meet him and in that moment, he straightens and just relaxes and is sooo in the moment.  Which is why when she starts pushing him backward it's so much fun to see his eyebrows go up.  Love that detail.  Felicity was so clearly taking charge, lol. 

I also think because of the rather restrained level to their kiss, that this was not their first time together since the island.  I still agree it wasn't anything regular and they probably kept saying each time they got together they weren't going to do that again until they were officially back together but if this had been their first time to have sex since the island exploded, I would have expected a whole lot more desperation and heat in that kiss.  Instead, while it was full of love and there was clearly passion in the kiss, they were at a happy simmer rather than a couple that had been getting closer and closer to boiling over.  Boiling over IMO clearly happened a LONG time ago, lol.     

3 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I'd watch that.  It would possibly better than some of the DC movies.

This episode lived up to the hype.  Can we keep this show?

I had never heard of a Monte Cristo and when I looked it up, I wondered how Felicity knows how good they are because they're made with ham and she's Jewish. But then I found one made with smoked turkey so I felt better.  Apparently in Canada they are made in a skillet like grilled cheese sandwiches (but dipped in the egg mixture first) so I guess that's why Oliver didn't deep fry them.

I remember binomial equations (almost) fondly.  It was integration that killed me.

I looked at it more closely after I read your post and yes, it's very strange.  William's room appears to let into the main room which is a combination living room and dining area, with concrete walls at either end so no place for another bedroom there..  Opposite William's room is a kitchen area with appliances against the back wall so there is no opportunity to put a door in there.  Where does Oliver sleep?  Where does Raisa sleep since clearly she sleeps over because she knew about William's nightmares when Oliver didn't.

The strangest thing is that there is a wall of windows and on the same wall, just beside the windows, is a door.  So unless it's a ground floor apartment, which it doesn't look like, anyone coming in the front door would need to be be able to walk on air. Or rappel down from the roof.

Maybe Samantha knew something about her parents that we don't?  Something that made her not want them to have custody of William?

I think that in the early days, William should have stayed with his grandparents.  But in the long run, he's better off with his father.  I fanwank it that William spent time with his grandparents in the months after Lian Yu but when school started hr moved with Oliver because that's going to be his permanent home.

There are some ways to increase IQ (eg. enriched environment) and many to decrease it (impoverished environment, injury, illness) but the general area of intelligence is pretty much fixed by your genes.  That said, Oliver is smart in areas that he wants to be (as my mother used to say about my ex, they don't give out PhDs for common sense) and Sam seemed good enough in smarts to support herself and William.  I have my doubts as to how William can be at prodigy level unless there are some powerful math genes in Samantha's family.  Also wouldn't he be able to figure out the math on his own then?

7

I think it is a ground level apartment but with a porch out front.  

2 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

My head canon is that Felicity was just being nice and over enthusiastic with her praise! And that she was THRILLED to have something to bond with William since he seems to like school and studying just like her.

 

2

This was my take.  Except rather than just being nice, it was because she was so enamored with being able to bond with the kid that she was just gushing but gushing while totally buying into it.

[Mellowyellow]

Love your analysis @BkWurm1! Clearly there was a lot of science, research and thought that went into it.

Hmm I appreciate your arguement that this may not be the first time they've been together and I'm like half sold on it but I'm still not entirely convinced! Imo we only got the beginnings of her pushing him backwards and she did look "pouncy". If it hadn't faded to black the rest of the footage may look more desperate. Who knows what they did after the screen faded or how grabby they were!

Either way it's not such a bad thing to argue about?

I may need to watch 520 again to see what they look like when they haven't been together for a while!

[BkWurm1]

1 minute ago, Mellowyellow said:

Love your analysis @BkWurm1! Clearly there was a lot of science, research and thought that went into it.

Hmm I appreciate your arguement that this may not be the first time they've been together and I'm like half sold on it but I'm still not entirely convinced! Imo we only got the beginnings of her pushing him backwards and she did look "pouncy". If it hadn't faded to black the rest of the footage may look more desperate. Who knows what they did after the screen faded or how grabby they were!

Either way it's not such a bad thing to argue about?

I may need to watch 520 again to see what they look like when they haven't been together for a while!

Well, just to take the other position for the fun of it, one could read all her nervous energy and surprise and even reluctance to let Oliver into the apartment when he stopped by unexpectedly as Felicity desperately trying to keep from giving into the constant, ongoing and unanswered desire to jump him by being a bit standoffish.  That would fit with her behavior anytime they were alone earlier in the episode.  She was always friendly and helpful but also made no move to get into his personal space.  It was like she was deliberately working to keep her mind and body in check. 

That said, I think the same could be said with the theory that they would "boil over" and then say that was the last time they would get together until they were officially back together.  (Even if they slipped up several times since the island, lol)

And I agree, it's a great thing to get to argue over.  ????

[BkWurm1]

Other things I noted in my rewatch.

I think the Next of Kin connection is supposed to be Oliver bringing in Felicity to William's life.  It ties back to the comment Quentin made about him being glad he had Dinah to handle that part of his kid's upbringing.  Oliver went from single father doing it on his own cause there just wasn't anyone else, to him bringing in Felicity as his "found family".  

There also was a small shout out to Next of Kin when Oliver and Diggle brought up that he had a kid as well.  

But yeah, I think the bigger connection to the title (and I agree it's a weak one) was supposed to be Felicity and Oliver moving their relationship forward to include Willaim.  

 

Liked that in one scene we had Felicity starved from skipping breakfast and in the next, Oliver randomly showing up to feed her snacks.  I wonder if there was any significance as well in that he was up and making breakfast in his apartment while Felicity hadn't eaten one at all.  He sure did seem into feeding her in the episode.  

Another thing repeated a couple times in the episode was how well Felicity knew Oliver and how well Oliver knew Diggle and how well Diggle knew everyone, lol.  

 

Here's a nitpick.  Onyx used the flashbombs three times but the first time they didn't just blind, they killed everyone but Onxy.  The cop lady tells Dinah that they all died as a result of broken vertebra but with no signs of being touched.  Before that I thought they'd just passed out.  But if they were lethal flashy balls then, why didn't they hurt the team later?  And even setting that aside, why didn't the flash affect Onyx and her team?  

 

One last thing, I do think FBI lady is going to end up targeting someone on the team instead of Oliver.  That's what I took from that last scene with his known associates and pinning up Diggle's picture.  Maybe Diggle will be the one on the run but given his connection to Argus, I doubt he would have any real worries.  But yeah, Felicity's picture was also on that board so I could see FBI lady trying to apply pressure on her in order to get Oliver to fess up. 

Or maybe she'll just arrest EvilLaurel instead for faking her death since everyone already knows that Laurel was a vigilante.    

Edited October 28, 2017 by BkWurm1

[mxc90]

On 10/27/2017 at 7:19 AM, cambridgeguy said:

Also, while it was kind of cool falling multiple stories and then being canary cried INTO a car hard enough to crack the windshield does not strike me as the best way to get from point A to point B.  Forget the tremors, Dig is going to need painkillers after stunts like that.

I agree. For a guy with confidence and physical issues, he jumped without hesitation. He must have deep trust in Dinah to carry him to the ground safely (or try to). The owner of the damaged car will be one person not supporting vigilantes.

ONYX racked up a high body count just to eliminate 3 defectors. 

[way2interested]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

One last thing, I do think FBI lady is going to end up targeting someone on the team instead of Oliver.  That's what I took from that last scene with his known associates and pinning up Diggle's picture.  Maybe Diggle will be the one on the run but given his connection to Argus, I doubt he would have any real worries.  But yeah, Felicity's picture was also on that board so I could see FBI lady trying to apply pressure on her in order to get Oliver to fess up

Yeah, that's what I took took from it too. She might go after Diggle now, but it also screamed  "red herring" to me, but we shall see. Heck, it might be the real reason why Curtis is semi-involved (given this episode, since Felicity seems to be the one giving the most thought to it) in the company, so it won't fall apart/completely be dropped if they take the FBI story that way.

But to bring it back to the episode, I got flashbacks to Chase's little board of Oliver's team and shouted "No, Samanda! Do not step into Prometheus-crazy territory," and then laughed again at the show using stills for previous episodes as pictures (but surprised that they didn't just used the pictures Chase had). That and I was curious about how they hypotheticallly have Samanda figuring out his team. Like, Oliver admitted that Laurel was the BC so that's why she's up there, Lance and Rene work directly for him and are also trying to protect the vigilantes so that's why they're up there. Diggle coming in later I figured kind of made sense since the two of them weren't really seen out in public together since s4 and one could think "oh right, Oliver used to have a body guard turned friend...he kind of looks like this new GA, I wonder if Oliver and his bodyguard are still friends and he's protecting him hmmmmmm." But then I guess Felicity's up there since she and Oliver are together?

[apinknightmare]

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think it is a ground level apartment but with a porch out front.  

You can see a roof across from Oliver's balcony. I figured their door was at the end of a hallway, and that it was a corner apartment with no windows along the far side for...whatever reason. Mainly because the design theme seems to be that of a prison, haha.

[BunsenBurner]

It would be kind of funny if the FBI lady came after BS because she was supposed to be dead. She could question why the whole city was complicit in the faking of her death. They even put up a statue in her honor. A dramady in action!

Edited October 28, 2017 by BunsenBurner
Stupid autocorrect

[Primal Slayer]

36 minutes ago, BunsenBurner said:

It would be kind of funny if the FBI lady came after BS because she was supposed to be dead. She could question why the whole city was complicit in the faking of her death. They even put up a statue in her honor. A dramady in action!

I actually want this to happen. 

[Hiveminder]

I really hate Oliver’s apartment. Cement walls are so...bleugh. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

32 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I really hate Oliver’s apartment. Cement walls are so...bleugh. 

Right? I hate the idea of Oliver and Myson moving into the loft, I just want to burn that place down. But Oliver's apartment is horrible. There's no warmth. No wonder the kid is still traumatized :P

[Hiveminder]

I just pictured Oliver wanting something cozier, with soft surfaces and colors that aren’t brown and grey. And some light. Myson’s room is like a prison cell, and I kept wanting to tell him he’ll hurt his eyes if he keeps reading with such low light. 

I don’t know if that can actually happen, but that’s what my mom told when I used to try to read in the car at night using the light of the street lamps we drove past. 

Edited October 28, 2017 by Hiveminder

[insomniadreams88]

7 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Yes, technically, the kiss was a bit awkward.  For me, the issue was that Oliver says his line and then without letting her react, he goes in to kiss her when I would have thought the scene more naturally would have had Felicity initiate the kiss or Oliver go for the kiss after confirmation that she's in

My first thought was that when they hit pause, Felicity told him that when he’s ready, she’s in, hence her asking him if he’s sure and no confirmation she’s in before the kiss. You know, something else we’ll find out in the book in January. 

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

You can see a roof across from Oliver's balcony. I figured their door was at the end of a hallway, and that it was a corner apartment with no windows along the far side for...whatever reason. Mainly because the design theme seems to be that of a prison, haha.

That's right, I hadn't thought about the view from the window.  I guess then he has one of those apartments that has open corridors leading to the apartments.  It's unheard of where I live (too much snow) but it's more common in the warmer areas from what I've seen. 

Cement is one of the new trends (I really do watch too much HGTV) but so much of it looks so very sterile.  Maybe once Felicity moves in (whenever that happens) she'll be the one to add some warmth?  Maybe it's a deliberate choice?  Though that said, I remain surprised that Felicity only recently added any personal touches to the loft she's been living in for two years.  The weird blue and red "couches" were the only pops of color in the place.  I wonder if they are supposed to represent her turning the place into an office since they are kind of reminiscent of the funky decorating from real tech companies that are supposed to indicate innovation in the work environment.       

Edited October 28, 2017 by BkWurm1

[leopardprint]

2 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Right? I hate the idea of Oliver and Myson moving into the loft, I just want to burn that place down. But Oliver's apartment is horrible. There's no warmth. No wonder the kid is still traumatized :P

It's distractingly bad! Every time there is a scene in there, I notice more weird interior design decisions, like why are there three different floor lamps directly in front of a free standing mirror? 

It looks like a Design Within Reach storeroom where they keep discontinued floor models. 

Also, did anyone find Felicity excessively hyper in some of the scenes in this episode? 

5 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

That's right, I hadn't thought about the view from the window. I guess then he has one of those apartments that has open corridors leading to the apartments. It's unheard of where I live (too much snow) but it's common in the warmer areas from what I've seen. 

When Rene goes to snitch on Diggle, they show the entry door opens on an enclosed hallway. 

They should have reused the Ivy Town set for Oliver's place or Diggle's apartment could have pulled double duty. 

Edited October 28, 2017 by leopardprint

[apinknightmare]

I don't hate the cement as much as I hate that it looks like cement tiles with bolts in it. It's so terribly ugly. 

[BkWurm1]

22 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

It's distractingly bad! Every time there is a scene in there, I notice more weird interior design decisions, like why are there three different floor lamps directly in front of a free standing mirror? 

It looks like a Design Within Reach storeroom where they keep discontinued floor models. 

Also, did anyone find Felicity excessively hyper in some of the scenes in this episode? 

When Rene goes to snitch on Diggle, they show the entry door opens on an enclosed hallway. 

They should have reused the Ivy Town set for Oliver's place or Diggle's apartment could have pulled double duty. 

1

Huh, that's true.  I could have sworn that previously the door had direct sunlight coming through it though. 

So he has a brick corridor that leads right to his door and then just stops since beyond it is the balcony.  

To be honest, I actually find the giant sliding door from William's bedroom right into the kitchen while the bedroom also has a side entrance to a hallway that has NO DOOR more troubling, lol. 

Edited October 28, 2017 by BkWurm1

[apinknightmare]

7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

To be honest, I actually find the giant sliding door from William's bedroom right into the kitchen while the bedroom also has a side entrance to a hallway that has NO DOOR more troubling, lol. 

Maybe it would help if we pretend that his room wasn't initially supposed to be a bedroom, but a den/other use area that Oliver gave to him because he's a growing boy and he needs easy access to snacks.

[Chyromaniac]

Did I hear this right? FBI lady accuses Ollie of giving info to Green Arrow.  He then asks if he’s done anything illegal- and she says no?

What?!?!

[leopardprint]

6 minutes ago, Chyromaniac said:

Did I hear this right? FBI lady accuses Ollie of giving info to Green Arrow.  He then asks if he’s done anything illegal- and she says no?

What?!?!

FBI lady took the time to get a picture of the dearly departed Laurel, pin it to the wall, and then draw a big red X through it, so I think she's got a flair for the dramatic. 

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

Maybe it would help if we pretend that his room wasn't initially supposed to be a bedroom, but a den/other use area that Oliver gave to him because he's a growing boy and he needs easy access to snacks.

But then why wouldn’t he just get an apartment with two real bedrooms? He was still living in the bunker before the island so it’s not like he didn’t know William would be there when he was apartment hunting. Even if he did start looking for an apartment before that, his hopeful little heart would definitely be thinking about rooms for olicitots. 

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

But then why wouldn’t he just get an apartment with two real bedrooms? He was still living in the bunker before the island so it’s not like he didn’t know William would be there when he was apartment hunting. Even if he did start looking for an apartment before that, his hopeful little heart would definitely be thinking about rooms for olicitots. 

The whole point was that he just gave him access to a room that was close to the kitchen - not that there weren't other bedrooms available. ;)

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

The whole point was that he just gave him access to a room that was close to the kitchen - not that there weren't other bedrooms available. ;)

Eh. That doesn’t really work for me. It’s an apartment. It’s not like the walk from a bedroom to the kitchen is going to take two days.  I think it’s just poor set design. 

Edited October 28, 2017 by Hiveminder

[apinknightmare]

16 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

Eh. That doesn’t really work for me. It’s an apartment. It’s not like the walk from a bedroom to the kitchen is going to take two days.  I think it’s just poor set design. 

It was a joke. That's why I wrote "maybe it would help if we pretend...."

[johntfs]

I admit I really liked Dinah in this episode.  I kind of felt for her, too.  It's really hard to confront someone you care about and respect about their failings and frailties.  She did a good job confronting John but still allowing him the chance to do the right thing on his own.  Laurel would have nagged him and then almost immediately outed him in front of the whole team.  At least Rene had enough decency to go to Oliver instead of trying to stage some half-assed intervention.

[DigitalCount]

I'm so weak. I'm pretty sure I'm on the verge of shipping Black Driver, which was the name I settled on for the ship because I don't know what people call it (or even if "it" has a name). I don't think it fits the characters, but especially in that last scene where Dinah approached Diggle with her hands behind her back, there was something there. And I'm a weird stupid romantic even when the situation doesn't call for it. They work as a duo because of the actors, but then again this show needs to stop writing for the actors and start writing for the characters. I also wouldn't like to have a BC/GA pairing just because of the comic books, even though this is neither the original Black Canary nor the original Green Arrow. So I'm torn.

On the other hand, something I can be unabashedly happy about is the rekindling of Olicity. I was a bit worried for William in this situation, but then they miraculously actually considered the potential effects on William and I was shocked for a moment. Arrow, considering ramifications of stuff? Not in my show. Of course, everything that has been said about the drug storyline brought me back to something familiar and dumb.

I don't know if anyone else found that limo fight awesome, but that was freaking awesome, like Daredevil S1 awesome.

[bijoux]

I was really happy to have mention of Thea in this episode, which I chose to interpret to mean that she'll be waking up sooner rather than later. But it brings another thing to mind. How did they explain her coma to the world? For some reason unknown to me, they made up a story about Samantha dying in a car crash, instead of just tweaking what really happened. Namely, Chase held a grudge against the mayor and that was why he kidnapped his secret son and his BM. So, what then is the explanation behind Thea sustaining injuries that put her in a coma at the exact same time? She was driving the car?

[BkWurm1]

43 minutes ago, bijoux said:

For some reason unknown to me, they made up a story about Samantha dying in a car crash, instead of just tweaking what really happened. Namely, Chase held a grudge against the mayor and that was why he kidnapped his secret son and his BM. So, what then is the explanation behind Thea sustaining injuries that put her in a coma at the exact same time? She was driving the car?

Very good question! Also reminds me of a thing they said back in the second episode that I'll bring over to that episode thread. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by BkWurm1

[ComicFan777]

One of the things that I liked about this episode was a tiny glimpse of what Felicity's life was like when she was younger (ie. Donna forgetting to pick her up from school and not having time to make her snacks) and how it affected her.  When Oliver had mentioned something about her providing snacks for William and her advice to him about what to say, it made me admire the quiet support she's been giving and how thoughtful she has been in trying to ensure that William would never feel the same way she did when she was younger.

Surprisingly, I am starting to warm up to the William storyline now that Felicity is involved because I get to learn a little more about her.  At the same time, it also makes me curse the BMD lie even more because I would have loved to see Oliver gain a more profound perspective in S4 had he talked to Felicity right away and she was allowed to provide her own perspective as a child who thought her dad abandoned her and what it was like growing up with just her mom.

[Featherhat]

7 hours ago, ComicFan777 said:

One of the things that I liked about this episode was a tiny glimpse of what Felicity's life was like when she was younger (ie. Donna forgetting to pick her up from school and not having time to make her snacks) and how it affected her.  When Oliver had mentioned something about her providing snacks for William and her advice to him about what to say, it made me admire the quiet support she's been giving and how thoughtful she has been in trying to ensure that William would never feel the same way she did when she was younger.

Surprisingly, I am starting to warm up to the William storyline now that Felicity is involved because I get to learn a little more about her.  At the same time, it also makes me curse the BMD lie even more because I would have loved to see Oliver gain a more profound perspective in S4 had he talked to Felicity right away and she was allowed to provide her own perspective as a child who thought her dad abandoned her and what it was like growing up with just her mom.

That would mean that the people involved would have had to act like actual human beings and not pod people though, which was really hard to do for everyone involved in that storyline apparently. Because it's not like Oliver *knew* that Felicity had met her father for the first time in 18 years or anything or that she might have suggestions about how to protect William or work around/change Samantha's idiotic plan for Oliver in their kid's life. 

[bijoux]

After this episode, this isn't that much fun.

Oh, the days of youth when fun was being poked at stereotypes.

[blackwing]

Wild Dung continues to suck donkey balls... HOSS.  

And this has been bothering me since the season started.  Wasn't William like 8 years old n the season finale?   He looks like he's 13 now?  

Edited October 31, 2017 by blackwing

[JamieLynn832002]

William was 10 when he was sent away in season 4 so he would have been 11 or 12 in the finale and roughly the same now but Jack Moore is 14 and I think he hit a growth spurt over the summer.

[BkWurm1]

15 hours ago, bijoux said:

After this episode, this isn't that much fun.

Oh, the days of youth when fun was being poked at stereotypes.

I really hope they spin it as an experimental treatment rather than a street drug.

[Hiveminder]

4 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I really hope they spin it as an experimental treatment rather than a street drug.

I’ve never heard of a street drug that helps with tremors, but then this is Arrow.